I'm trying to make a cc bard but none of the options seem good for that. I am human bard, level 7, I put maximum charisma and the rest into constitution.
I first tried spellsinger and found out that in groups cc is worthless as it takes more time for me to cc an opponent than others can kill it.
Then I tried virtuoso for the aoe cc of enthrallment but again, everything dies before the song ends and if there is a fight worth using it, it bugs and often nothing is enthralled and the dc of my other spells is too low now.
I'm wondering if at higher levels cc will needed and what is better between virtuoso and spellsinger for cc.
The higher the level, the more useful CC becomes.
In content 16-18 (and higher quest difficulties then Normal) it really starts to make a big difference if you have a good CC-caster in group or not.
Also, use the right CC for the situation. Fascinate for every fight is a subpar choice as you yourself experience right now. So try Soundburst just to quickly stun a few mobs and prevent them from fighting back. Or a well placed Charm inn the middle of a monstergroup to start the fight. Which the monsters beginn by beating up one of their own while your melees (if they are halfway tactically competent) wll us to pick on them 1 after 1.
Also get the appropriate Feats like Heighten (so all youir lower level Splees still stay viable DC-wise), Spell Focus Enchantment and later Spell Penetration once you meet Outsiders and Drow.
Virtuosos rely more on song CC and spellsingers rely more on spell CC. I'm curious why the DC of your other spells was too low? The only thing spellsinger had over virt was the +DC song and that doesn't stack with the ship buff for enchantments.
Originally Posted by sosderosii
If you want to make better use of fascinate/enthrall you need to start practicing timing it. Start singing it while running towards the mobs and time the end of the song for when you get there. The idea is your song should be ending before they get through the last set of mobs and you'll have the new set prepped for them. And then they'll break it with AoE's anyway. ;)
Spell CC is normally faster and effective enough until you need to reach extreme CC's in elite content. At lower levels when mob's are dying quickly short term CC effects work well and you'll find that sonic blast, sound burst, hypno, and deep slumber are good CC spells because your group is dispatching mobs faster than you can sing so the durations are effective, they are ranged, and they are AoE's. Charmed/suggested creatures can draw aggro and make for a more subtle approach to CC. If your group does need longer durations hypnotic pattern and deep slumber can cover that.
Undead will be more challenging for CC unless you go virt and motd early, but can be covered rather well with glitterdust and/or halt undead scrolls at lower levels.
A person doesn't need to lock down all the mobs to be successfully making use of CC. When groups are dispatching them fast it makes more sense to use faster casting shorter duration abilities in order to prevent some damage, whether it's break-on-hit or not, or skipping that altogether in favor of melee or healing. Stronger CC is only needed in difficult content and you would be better off with additional foci much of the time.
Take inspired damage II and at level 8 your IC is +4 damage -- that's what you should be spending songs on and you should be using a weapon as well. Since you seem to have STR dump-statted moonhowl axe is reasonable if you have it and not that difficult to get if you don't. Some melee is going to be something you should be contributing if you are not.
Heal the party. Even if you are just using wand and scroll mastery and CSW or CMW wands, possibly CMW spells, you will be using cheap CC spells to prevent some damage and cheap healing give you something else to do that the party can appreciate.
At higher levels CC can become more prominent but a person should continue to be able to supply healing. Healing is more in demand than CC and gives bards more to bring to the table beyond the buffs.
"I'm wondering if at higher levels cc will needed and what is better between virtuoso and spellsinger for cc."
There isn't a lot of difference between a fascinate from war chanter or spellsinger compared to enthrall. Enthrall doesn't automatically break on hit but does break.
What's nice is the extra songs and regen that stacks with anthem so virts can make more use of the song on top of being a superior song. Adding capering to the mix to take out threats at range while using spells for other odd situations gives the highest DC's (as songs instead of spells) most of the time.
Spellsingers will have the same spell DC's as virts and still have fascinate DC's as a back up. It's the bonus DC for spells that spellsingers can give to other casters in the group plus SP cost reduction, bonus to caster level if applicable, and the nice SP regenerating song that typically makes them desirable. With a virt, 1 song powers 1 enthrall; with a spellsinger, 1 song provides enough SP for over half a dozen disco balls or deep slumbers. As long as those DC's are high enough the spellsinger will get more bang for his or her songs, and if those DC's are not high enough will simply use the fascinate line of abilities instead. The spellsinger can better afford debuffing spells and healing spells as well, and has higher concentration and UMD for scroll healing.
I would just take a look at both and then decide which you prefer. Hopefully that helps.
Honestly I think all the good bard CC spells are high level, or have high level versions that arre superior in ways like number of targets hit or types of targets affected, and OP, since you're level 7, you're missing them. You're missing disco ball to set up at a spot, and all you have to do is convince the melees to fight near it, and the mobs they fight will dance, assuming they don't save. Hold monster and Otto's irresistible dance are good for neutralizing one enemy, otto's has no DC while hold can be cast from far away and gives +50% damage against the mob. Greater shout stuns everything in front of you that fails a save, and also happens to add a couple hundred points of sonic damage.
Until you get those, you'll probably have fun spamming soundburst and sonic blast. It takes less than a second to cast them, and stuns everything nearby that fails a save, so it's a viable option to CC a good number of mobs before the melees do too much to them. (Sonic blast is even more fun to use on a cluster of breakables though :))
Also, enjoy the induction bar bug while it lasts, basically, hit fascinate, let it play for a second or two, then tumble :D
This is a problem with current game design. Min/max dps toons are encouraged by the video game aspect of combat, and much of the content is generated in a lazy way that encourages more dps and not so much tactics and strategy. Also, many groups have become a race to the finish where the winner is generally the one that can run the fastest and avoid the damage on the move. All the bard songs, including fascinate, take an enormous amount of time and in many groups that's time that few people are willing to wait on.
A bard has a hard time fitting into this. (As do several other classes, but the bard is unique because it is the only class that provides no real dps, and absolutely no insta-kills even at high levels) This makes the bard challenging and sometimes frustrating to play. You can solo, and much of the content is amazingly easy to solo on a bard (fascinate, ddoor, and other tools makes difficult quests like running with the devils or blockade buster amazingly easy and much faster to solo on a bard than with a party of huge dps toons) but then you get to the end fight and find you can't beat the boss because you don't have enough dps. My bard at level can sail through running with the devils solo faster than any group, but he cannot beat the end boss because the end boss has self healing that is much more powerful than any dps he can bring, even with hires, pets, and charmed monsters.
You can play a healer as the above poster suggested, but if you don't find that being particularly fun (I don't) you're out of luck.
You can also multi class your bard, and take a couple levels of rogue to do traps or a couple levels of fighter and do some fairly appreciable dps, or both to get a jack of all trades toon. This requires some degree of gear and gear swapping to pull off, and your bard spells other than buffs and healing will largely be pointless. For the occasional cc, fascinate seems to work pretty well and requires little investment in charisma or gear, and simply relies on the perform skill which is easy enough to max without taking away from your other roles. I've even created a bardbarian that was pretty fun to play and could very nearly match the dps of the barb, while allowing for some cc, self and party healing, self and party buffing, and therefor was much more durable and easier to max the kill count than a pure barb racing ahead of the healer. I spent more than one quest or raid running alongside the barb, matching his kills while keeping us both haged, blurred, and healed. It was quite fun. For this method, you will need to pay a lot of attention to getting hp wherever you can as that is the biggest issue with this playstyle.
The good news is that the bard is getting some real dps and some revamps to cc in the enhancement pass, as well as the heal spell, so the bard may be a bit easier to be viable in a party after than. But even now, a bard can be pretty awesome, it just takes some real planning, careful gearing, and better than average play. It's not for the squeamish! ;)
Bards are op. Any thing can do dps w str, feats, decent weapon.
We have a bard with a 75 dc that does all the evestar challs so easily for our group that they seem like training dummy skirmishes and not challenges.
OP is level 7. Epic destinies can make any character viable, class makes little difference. I assumed we were talking about heroic levels and you still have to get that bard to that point, which requires quite a bit of playing... or piking. ;)
Originally Posted by Rubbinns
First, cc is mostly useless in the heroic game. The one exception would be mass holds but bards don't get mass hold monster so nothing interesting there. That said, once cc does become important you don't have to be a max charisma bard to take advantage of it.
Honestly any bard can do great CC. I'd stay pure to get the highest spell pen you can. Spellsinger not necessarily for the CC but the group boosts. Your cc is going to be limited but powerful:
1) Fascinate - amazing crowd control with a very high DC assuming proper gear.
2) Otto's Irresistible Dance - also outstanding
There's one other option I didn't mention as it requires some past life work and a dedication to a questionable dps-toon - Ranged damage. Go Half Elf or Elf depending on your preference (I prefer HElf for the dilettante and human versatility), go 16 bard/2 ranger/2 fighter, and you can pick up the following feat list: Toughness, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus: Ranged, Maximize (for spellsinger), Rapid Shot (granted from ranger 2), Improved Critical: Ranged, Bow Strength (granted from ranger 1), Cleave, Great Cleave, Overwhelming Critical (at level 21), Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot. That's a total of 10 non-granted feats, 9 of them in the heroic levels, so that feat list will fit in exactly with no extra options. Max out your strength, make sure you can get to 19 dex, and you've made a good Bardcher. The nice thing with archery is that you can go Shiradi and have nerve venom + pin + otto's whistler added you fascinate and otto's irresistible dance for a large amount of hard to impossible to resist CC. With enough twists you can twist Otto's and/or Pin in to another ED. Finally you do have the option to do significant damage in Dreadnaught with cleave spamming and if you find yourself doing that a lot you could take Improved Critical for whatever melee weapon you're using at level 24.
And yes, my advice to the OP is to ignore CC for now. If you want to focus on something to help the group focus on healing the group in between killing things. I do play virtuoso from level 6-11 on all my bards though - it may not be needed often but when you DO need some CC enthrallment is crazy good - it's all about the timing.
Originally Posted by AzB