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winsom
03-29-2007, 02:48 AM
I'm thinking ahead to BaB +16 and Manyshot providing 4 arrows per shot. This character will be a favored-enemy slayer at range that is also dangerous in melee combat. Undead won't take critical hit damage, but Aberrations & Evil Outsiders will have to worry about bow critical hits of over 75 damage plus holy/bane damage.

The Fighter levels are to provide access to certain enhancements, most notably the increase to Trip attack DC. Improved Trip is my "trick" to provide combat control at all levels. Stunning Blow could be added later in the build for the same purpose, but probably not. Significant Strength will aid these tricks so they are moderately useful (I hope). Melee ability will be strong. Any weapon can be used equally well. No Weapon Finesse feat required but it could be taken later. Exotic feat: Khopesh, is an option, should I find a few that I really like. Can dual wield weapons for Weighted and Vertigo bonuses.

Starting Ability Scores (Elf, 32 point):
STR 16, DEX 18, CON 11 (12), INT 12 (13), WIS 11 (12), CHA 8

Update: I think CON 11 & WIS 11 would be better, as two Tomes +1 could raise each to a 12

Ending Ability Scores: (at 16th)
STR 26, DEX 31 or 32, CON 16, INT 13, WIS 13, CHA 10

items of STR +6, DEX +5, CON +4, WIS +2, CHA +2
tomes of STR +1, DEX +2, INT +1, CON +1, WIS +1
level-bumps of STR +2, DEX +2, enhancements of STR +1, DEX +4

Will need to wear an item of Wisdom in order to cast Ranger spells. i.e. Black Anvil Mines helm of WIS +2, Will Save +5.
Tome +1 INT allows for Combat Expertise & Improved Trip feats

Fighter (1st) enhancements at level 3: (5 APs spent)
Weapon durability 25%
Critical confirmation +2
Attack Boost +2
Trip attack DC +1
Toughness +5 Hit Points (w/ Toughness feat)

Ranger 11 will give all of the useful ranger-combat abilities in D&D, unless DDO decides to add more at higher levels. Ranger 12 is a +1 to all Saves level and it gives an upgrade to ranger spell ability.


Ranger (11th)enhancements prior to 13th level: (16 APs, 21 total)
Energy Resistance 8 (Boost, stacks with other resistance)
Dexterity +1 & +2
Favored enemy Damage +2 (vs. 3 Enemies)
Favored enemy save Resistance +2 (vs. 3 Enemies)
Energy +40 spell points

Elf Enhancements prior to 13th level (25 APs, 46 total):
Dexterity +1 & +2, Enchantment Resistance +1, Longsword & Rapier Attack +1 & +2, Bow Attack +1 & +2, Bow Damage +1 & +2

Fighter (2nd-4th)enhancements from 13-16th level: (12 APs, 58 total)
+1 STR enhancement, Flanking +1 attack, +1 AC from Armor DEX,
Attack Boost +3, Trip DC +2, Critical hit confirmation +4

Elf & Ranger enhancements from 12-16th level: (10 of 68 APs remaining)
Ranger DEX +3 or ?


Normal Feats:
1st: Toughness, 3rd: Combat Expertise, 6th: Extend Spell,
9th: Improved Critical - Ranged, 12th: Luck of Heroes, 15th: Skill Focus - UMD

Use Magic Device, as a cross-class skill, will be around +20 by 15th level if Skill Focus is added. Including a FEW other bonuses like Heroism +2, from Charisma +2, magic item +3. If I include Greater Heroism +4, and Ranger Skills Boost, I might make use of Skill Focus: UMD at 12th.

Ranger Bonus Feats:
1st: Bow Strength, 2nd: Rapid Shot, Two Weapon Fighting
6th: Manyshot, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, 9th: Evasion
11th: Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Fighter Bonus Feats:
1st: Improved Trip, 2nd: Improved Crit - Piercing, 4th: Weapon Finesse Or Weapon Focus - Ranged?


Armor Class: 37 (42 Expertise) or 44 w/ Shield (49 Expertise)
Base 10 +4 from DEX and AC enhancement
+13 from Mithral Full Plate +5, or equivalent)
+10 from +5 Barkskin, +2 Chaos Guard, +3 Deflection
+7 from large shield +5

Hit Points: 173 at 12th with +4 CON item, no False Life, and 239 at 16th with +6 from CON and no False Life)

Saving Throws: (Rng11/Ftr1) Fort +16, Reflex +22, Will +10
(includes DEX 30, CON 16, WIS 12 & magic bonuses to +3 Fort, +4 Reflex, +5 Will, and Luck of Heroes +1)

Tavok
03-29-2007, 04:39 AM
Although lvl 16 is a way's away, looks pretty solid. One thing I might recommend is going dwarf, and taking Dwarven Armor Mastery IV for some added AC. Your starting stats would have to be adjusted somewhat, I would think something like this.

Str16/Dex18/Con10/Intel12/Wis/10/Cha6

Then at level 16
Str - 22 (Fighter Str Enhancement, +5 Item)
Dex - 30 (Rangers Dex III, 4 lvl up points, +5 Item)
Con - 18 (Dwarven Con III, +5 Item)
Intel - 13 (+1 Tome)
Wisdom - 14 (+2 from Nightforge helm wont allow for 3rd level spell casting, so +4 Item)
Cha - 6

With this your looking at an AC in the low 50's with CE on, and about 47 without it. This also allows for higher con, and dwarven axe prof. saving you a feat on khopesh or something like it. And you also have access to the Dwarf stuff for stunning blow and trip DC increase.

winsom
03-29-2007, 04:55 AM
Dwarf is certainly superior for melee fighting (axes), Hit Points, Saves, and weapon tricks like Trip. I considered that race, and may make another ranger that follows this pattern. I think the dwarf is a bit too good, thanks to DDO's still-over-powered enhancements. The drow is better at TWF than the elf, as well, due to short sword enhancements.

The Elf has racial bonuses + enhancements = 4 more DEX than a dwarf. Add in +2 attack/damage Elf enhancements for archery = +4 attack and +2 damage bonus with bows that a dwarf will not get. I wanted to make an expert-archer that is still good in melee. Able to use all weapons well -- so I don't have to fuss about needing Finesseable weapons or super-DEX, lower-STR build problems.. An Elf can be really good with a longsword too, which is something a drow or dwarf can't do. I've collected a fair number of longswords. Probably sold off the dwarven axes I should have kept..
Besides my elf lady looks wicked! Like an elven female version of this Elric of Melnibone:
http://members.fortunecity.com/lioncourt77/brom/brom49.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Elricwhitewolf1.jpg

moops
03-29-2007, 12:49 PM
Edited to stay on OP's Topic

Kerbear
03-29-2007, 01:30 PM
your stats are almost identical to my current ranger (except mine was the 28 pt with only 8 int) I've thought about taking lvls of Fighter in the future on her as wel.... time will tell! I'm wanting to go pure, but unless there are some reasons in the future to continue being pure I might mix it up.

winsom
03-29-2007, 02:42 PM
I've thought about taking lvls of Fighter in the future on her as wel.... time will tell! I'm wanting to go pure, but unless there are some reasons in the future to continue being pure I might mix it up.

1 level in Rogue or Wizard is really good too, but each +0 BAB level means a 1 level delay before your Manyshot adds 1 extra arrow, and your DDO extra attack progression is weakened. I wanted to make a Manyshot specialist with good melee ability and some combat tricks with my build so I am avoiding the +0 Base Attack Bonus classes.

Fighter enhancements are great at 1st level but then take quite a few levels to improve (4th and then 7th). I think this makes a case of it being wise to only ever take 1 fighter level (or none) or taking 4 or 8 fighter levels. The fighter enhancement progression means not wanting to water-down that concept with rogue or wizard levels. You might also want to limit your ranger levels to 6th or 8th, 9th or 10th because fighter levels can get you the same feats (if you have enough natural Dexterity) as an 11th ranger without watering-down your fighter-enhancement improvements by taking ranger levels.

Single-classed Ranger is the best "favored enemy slayer". Consider that at Ranger 20th, you will have 5 favored enemies cherry-picked from the most popular DDO monsters, and you will be getting +10 damage vs each, plus more damage from Favored Enhancements. That is brutal damage, especially on a x3 critical hit! A Ranger 15/Fighter 4 can deal the same damage with a single weapon type (bow) if he takes Weapon Specialization +2 damage. The Ranger 20 gets the damage bonus with all weapons.

I hope it is clear that I do not have a preference. Ranger is a great D&D class in that it can be multi-classed well, or not at all, and none of the various builds are "better" than the others. I originally proposed a 12/4 split in the OP, and that could end up Rng15/Ftr5 unlike my advice immediately above. Or might do Rng12/Ftr8. Or I could do Rng9 for Evasion then Fighter 10, then..

Edited the OP. All of the Ranger enhancements that I wish to take come in the first 8 ranger levels. That could influence me to keep my ranger levels as low as possible. How badly do I want +1 Barkskin AC at 9th and 12? A second 2nd level spell at 12th. Evasion in Full Plate at 9th? :D


IS the drow Short Swoard Enhancement new? I haven't heard of that one before.
.

Drow get attack and damage enhancements with Rapier and Short sword

Elf gets attack and damage enhancements with longsword and rapier.

Neither the longsword or the rapier is a good off-hand weapon, like the short sword is, so the drow can get better combat numbers for the off-hand when Two Weapon Fighting.

If one were to argue that the -2 attack penalty for using a non-light weapon in the off-hand is a minor penalty in DDO, then the Elf dual-wielding long swords would be more similar-in-power to the dwarf dual-wielding dwarven axes.

Darn it! I hope this thread doesn't spend too long talking about race vs race. That was not my intent when I posted my build. I hope to get feedback and advice from people who have played with similar characters in DDO.

Jaysensen
03-29-2007, 05:17 PM
I had a similar high level discussion with Scedeau. We came to the conclusion that for TWF, Dwarves are superior numerically. I then came back with "I refuse to play a Dorf". "Im gonna play a Drow Female, and use my Rapier/SS collection."

I think a lot depends on what gear you got. If you got nice Rapiers/SS go Drow. LS Elf. Axes Dorf. They all perform in the same realm, though Dwarves we conceed have better enhancements - weapon quality being equal. I would say build around your existing weapons or weapons you plan to use.


What do your stats look like at L16 with gear?

Also take a look at Power Attack. Or Precision if you have Vorpals.

winsom
03-29-2007, 08:23 PM
Just how cool is Improved Precise Shot?

Ranger 9 / fighter 7: This version has differences from my first post:

Fighter feat spent to get Precise Shot.
No Improved Precise or Greater Two Weapon Fighting
10 more Hit Points, less Spell Points, less spell slots, 1 less Barkskin AC
2 more STR, 1 or 2 less DEX, 2 more Will Save
1 less Favored Enemy and associated enhancements/bonuses
Gain Weapon Focus & Improved Critical - Slash.
More STR & Fighter enhancements = better Trip DC, and other options
Will get Greater Weapon Focus & another Focus + Greater Focus later

Starting Ability Scores (Elf, 32 point):
STR 16, DEX 18, CON 11, INT 12, WIS 11, CHA 8

Ending Ability Scores:
STR 28, DEX 30, CON 16, INT 13, WIS 14, CHA 10

items of STR +6, DEX +5, CON +4, WIS +2, CHA +2
tomes of STR +2, DEX +1, INT +1, CON +1, WIS +1
level-bumps of STR +2, DEX +2, enhancements of STR +2, DEX +4

Fighter 1st: Full Plate (mithral) proficiency & bonus feat (Improved Trip)

Fighter 1st level: (5 APs spent) Bonus Feat: Improved Trip
Weapon durability 25%, Critical confirmation +2
Attack Boost +2, Trip attack DC +1
Toughness +5 Hit Points (w/ Toughness feat)

Ranger 8th level enhancements that I plan to take: (14 APs, 19 total)
Energy Resistance 8 (Boost, stacks with other resistance)
Energy +40 spell points
Dexterity +1 & +2
Elven Enchantment Resistance +1 & +2
Favored Enemy Resistance +1

Fighter 2nd: (2 APs, 21 total) STR +1 enhancement

Fighter 3rd-7th: (17 AP, 38 Total)
enhancements: Attack Boost +3, Trip DC +2 & +3, Flanking +1 attack,
Armor DEX +1 AC, Fighter STR +2, Fighter Toughness II

Racial (Elf) Enhancements (20 APs, 58 total):
Dexterity +1 & +2, Longsword & Rapier Attack +1 & +2
Bow Attack +1 & +2, Bow Damage +1

6 APs of 64 are not yet allocated

Normal Feats:
1st: Toughness, 3rd: Combat Expertise, 6th: Extend Spell,
9th: Improved Critical - Ranged, 12th: Luck of Heroes,
15th: Skill Focus - UMD, 18th: Weapon Focus - Slash

Ranger Bonus Feats:
1st: Bow Strength, 2nd: Rapid Shot, Two Weapon Fighting
6th: Manyshot, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, 9th: Evasion

Fighter Bonus Feats:
1st: Improved Trip, 2nd: Precise Shot
4th: Weapon Focus - Ranged, 6th: Improved Critical - Slash

Fighter Bonus feats at 17th & 19th levels:
8th: Greater Weapon Focus - Ranged, 10th: Greater Weapon Focus - Slash

Although this build only shows 9 levels of Ranger, I personally may take Ranger 10th before taking the next 9 levels as Fighter.
Benefits: Extra Favored Enemy & bonuses, more Spell Points, +1 Fort & Reflex, Ranger DEX +3


Armor Class: 36 (41 Expertise) or 43 w/ Shield (48 Expertise)
Base 10 +4 from DEX and AC enhancement
+13 from Mithral Full Plate +5, or equivalent)
+9 from +4 Barkskin, +2 Chaos Guard, +3 Deflection
+7 from large shield +5

Hit Points: 183 at 12th with +4 CON item, no False Life, and 242 at 16th with +6 from CON and no False Life)

Saving Throws: (Rng9/Ftr3) Fort +16, Reflex +22, Will +12
(includes DEX 30, CON 16, WIS 14 & magic bonuses to +3 Fort, +4 Reflex, +5 Will, and Luck of Heroes +1)

winsom
03-30-2007, 05:30 PM
Made some refinements to the original build Rng12/Ftr2 and the follow-up build Rng9/Frt7

- Added Luck of Heroes feat at 12th,
because spells become very dangerous at higher levels. This could be useful earlier, but will likely chose Extend Spell instead.

- Removed Stunning Blow feat and related enhancements
to leave room for other options.

- Added Improved Critical melee feats to each build variation

I figure this character will spend a good deal of time in melee despite her ranged superiority. Melee attacks are much, much faster ways to win battles while Manyshot is refreshing.

Shrazkil
07-30-2007, 03:25 PM
I'm thinking ahead to BaB +16 and Manyshot providing 4 arrows per shot. This character will be a favored-enemy slayer at range that is also dangerous in melee combat. Undead won't take critical hit damage, but Aberrations & Evil Outsiders will have to worry about bow critical hits of over 75 damage plus holy/bane damage.

The Fighter levels are to provide access to certain enhancements, most notably the increase to Trip attack DC. Improved Trip is my "trick" to provide combat control at all levels. Stunning Blow could be added later in the build for the same purpose, but probably not. Significant Strength will aid these tricks so they are moderately useful (I hope). Melee ability will be strong. Any weapon can be used equally well. No Weapon Finesse feat required but it could be taken later. Exotic feat: Khopesh, is an option, should I find a few that I really like. Can dual wield weapons for Weighted and Vertigo bonuses.

Starting Ability Scores (Elf, 32 point):
STR 16, DEX 18, CON 11 (12), INT 12 (13), WIS 11 (12), CHA 8

Update: I think CON 11 & WIS 11 would be better, as two Tomes +1 could raise each to a 12

Ending Ability Scores: (at 16th)
STR 26, DEX 31 or 32, CON 16, INT 13, WIS 13, CHA 10

items of STR +6, DEX +5, CON +4, WIS +2, CHA +2
tomes of STR +1, DEX +2, INT +1, CON +1, WIS +1
level-bumps of STR +2, DEX +2, enhancements of STR +1, DEX +4

Will need to wear an item of Wisdom in order to cast Ranger spells. i.e. Black Anvil Mines helm of WIS +2, Will Save +5.
Tome +1 INT allows for Combat Expertise & Improved Trip feats

Fighter (1st) enhancements at level 3: (5 APs spent)
Weapon durability 25%
Critical confirmation +2
Attack Boost +2
Trip attack DC +1
Toughness +5 Hit Points (w/ Toughness feat)

Ranger 11 will give all of the useful ranger-combat abilities in D&D, unless DDO decides to add more at higher levels. Ranger 12 is a +1 to all Saves level and it gives an upgrade to ranger spell ability.


Ranger (11th)enhancements prior to 13th level: (16 APs, 21 total)
Energy Resistance 8 (Boost, stacks with other resistance)
Dexterity +1 & +2
Favored enemy Damage +2 (vs. 3 Enemies)
Favored enemy save Resistance +2 (vs. 3 Enemies)
Energy +40 spell points

Elf Enhancements prior to 13th level (25 APs, 46 total):
Dexterity +1 & +2, Enchantment Resistance +1, Longsword & Rapier Attack +1 & +2, Bow Attack +1 & +2, Bow Damage +1 & +2

Fighter (2nd-4th)enhancements from 13-16th level: (12 APs, 58 total)
+1 STR enhancement, Flanking +1 attack, +1 AC from Armor DEX,
Attack Boost +3, Trip DC +2, Critical hit confirmation +4

Elf & Ranger enhancements from 12-16th level: (10 of 68 APs remaining)
Ranger DEX +3 or ?


Normal Feats:
1st: Toughness, 3rd: Combat Expertise, 6th: Extend Spell,
9th: Improved Critical - Ranged, 12th: Luck of Heroes, 15th: Skill Focus - UMD

Use Magic Device, as a cross-class skill, will be around +20 by 15th level if Skill Focus is added. Including a FEW other bonuses like Heroism +2, from Charisma +2, magic item +3. If I include Greater Heroism +4, and Ranger Skills Boost, I might make use of Skill Focus: UMD at 12th.

Ranger Bonus Feats:
1st: Bow Strength, 2nd: Rapid Shot, Two Weapon Fighting
6th: Manyshot, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, 9th: Evasion
11th: Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Fighter Bonus Feats:
1st: Improved Trip, 2nd: Improved Crit - Piercing, 4th: Weapon Finesse Or Weapon Focus - Ranged?


Armor Class: 37 (42 Expertise) or 44 w/ Shield (49 Expertise)
Base 10 +4 from DEX and AC enhancement
+13 from Mithral Full Plate +5, or equivalent)
+10 from +5 Barkskin, +2 Chaos Guard, +3 Deflection
+7 from large shield +5

Hit Points: 173 at 12th with +4 CON item, no False Life, and 239 at 16th with +6 from CON and no False Life)

Saving Throws: (Rng11/Ftr1) Fort +16, Reflex +22, Will +10
(includes DEX 30, CON 16, WIS 12 & magic bonuses to +3 Fort, +4 Reflex, +5 Will, and Luck of Heroes +1)

I would urge you to forgo such a high dexterity and focus more on strength. Honest;y 97 out of 100 fights you will probably melee alot more then range. I have nearly identical build as a dwarf, By far my favorite character to date.

Starting stats were 18,14,16,12,8,6 .

I have it planned to 20, likely to be 12 ranger / 8 fighter.

Stunning blow is INCREDIBLE if you go the strength route, Do not pass it up.

Currently use +5 thundering heavy pick of maiming, and +2 shock burst , weighted 5% offhand. Main hand crits for over 160!

winsom
01-23-2008, 08:49 AM
I decided to have fun with the elven dragonmark. Enhancements will be slightly re-tooled to give more uses of dragonmarks. I'm try to make the most of out my choice of Elf.

New feat plan is as follows (up to 19th level):

.(1st) Rng1: Toughness
.(2nd) Ftr1: Combat Expertise
.(3rd) Rng2: Improved Trip
.(6th) Rng5: Dragonmark of Shadow I (Invisibility)
.(9th) Rng7/Ftr2: Dragonmark of Shadow II (Displacement), Imp Crit Ranged
.(12th) Rng10/Ftr2: Weapon Focus Slash
.(15th) Rng11/Ftr4: Imp Crit Slash, Weapon Spec Slash
.(17, 18, 19th) Rng11/Ftr6,7,8: Weapon Focus, Imp Crit, & Weapon Spec: Pierce

How good is Ranger 12th after I already have all the goodies from 11th?

I could take it earlier in the build or wait until 20th. A single level of Wizard could be interesting, especially since I started with INT 13, but I won't pass up another attack animation at BaB +20, if there is one..


I would urge you to forgo such a high dexterity and focus more on strength. Honest;y 97 out of 100 fights you will probably melee alot more then range.

Stunning blow is INCREDIBLE if you go the strength route, Do not pass it up.

Currently use +5 thundering heavy pick of maiming, and +2 shock burst , weighted 5% offhand. Main hand crits for over 160!

Does Stunning Blow continue to work reliably after level 12?

I forsee monster Fort Saves being incredibly high, especially on elite play. This character is not a super-raging-enhanced barbarian. STR might be around 30ish, not near 50 like a barbarian.
For instance, my Wizard can regularly slay monsters with her DC 32 Finger of Death. Monsters can fail a Fort 32. I do not see how my ranger/fighter that started with STR 16 can get over DC 30 with the Stunning Blow feat ?

I am hoping that monster resistance vs Trip Attacks will get tweaked (fixed) at some point so it truely works off of STR or DEX checks vs my Trip DC. High level Monster STR and DEX scores will be high, but not nearly as high as their Fort saves, so I expect that Improved Trip will have longer viable use in this game.

Mad_Bombardier
01-23-2008, 09:12 AM
Does Stunning Blow continue to work reliably after level 12?

I forsee monster Fort Saves being incredibly high, especially on elite play. This character is not a super-raging-enhanced barbarian. STR might be around 30ish, not near 50 like a barbarian.I'd say it works reliably on arcane caster/rogue mobs (though, no Giantkin casters with racial bonuses to Fort saves). But, you can use it every 10 seconds and mobs roll 1s just as often as players. ;)