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Castorr
03-28-2007, 06:03 PM
Simple question.

What is better? +5 full plate or +4 Adamantine Full plate?

I have tried both and it kinda seems like +5 takes less overall damage but maybe it is in my head. Any DDO math guys care to speculate?

Blazer
03-28-2007, 06:10 PM
Kinda depends on where your AC sits with +5 FP vs the +4 Addy FP. 40 AC seems to be a breakpoint, so if the +4 puts you on the wrong side of 40, the +5 may be better. Now, if you are talking about the Stonemeld Plate from the Dragon raid, then that particular suit of +4 Addy FP is better than +5 FP since it has 5 DR, and not the typical 3 DR of Addy FP.

This are my opinions only. Your mileage may vary. ;)

vyvy3369
03-28-2007, 06:13 PM
1 AC is almost always going to be better than 3 DR. Even 5 DR, I'd probably stick with the 1 AC. Especially for clerics, since no hit at all means no concentration check vs a slightly easier concentration check more often.

Impaqt
03-28-2007, 06:15 PM
BOTH! Nightforge plate from BAM FTW.

With 1 AC Difference, You'll get hit 5% of the time more.....

Lets Take 20 Hits.... Avg Hit 20 Points of Damage = 400 Points of Damage
WIth +4 You would of been hit 21 Times for 420 Points of Damage LESS DR 3/- which is 63 for net damage of 357 Points.

Net Benefit <43> Points of damage. For weaker Mobs...

If the Mobs are hitting you for 40 Points a Pop the Numbers May be differnt.. Let see...

20x40 = 800 Points of Damage

21x40 = 840 Points - 63 = 777 Points of Damage....

Nope, DR is still better.....

You'd have to be taking over 60points of damage per hit to see the 1 AC over DR 3/-

Longinus
03-28-2007, 06:21 PM
Actually, it's more like 1 point of AC is almost always < 3 points of DR. We won't even talk about 5 points of DR. I loves my Stonemeld Plate, I do I do.

vyvy3369
03-28-2007, 06:26 PM
BOTH! Nightforge plate from BAM FTW.

With 1 AC Difference, You'll get hit 5% of the time more.....

Lets Take 20 Hits.... Avg Hit 20 Points of Damage = 400 Points of Damage
WIth +4 You would of been hit 21 Times for 420 Points of Damage LESS DR 3/- which is 63 for net damage of 357 Points.

Net Benefit <43> Points of damage.
It's not always that simple though. As Blazer mentioned, if you're near a threshold, the AC can make a very large difference.

For example, fighting something that needs to roll a 19 to hit you and does that 20 damage. The DR makes that 10% chance of taking 17, or 1.7 per swing. The higher AC makes that 5% chance of taking 20 damage, or 1 per swing.

I made a chart at work a while back - I can compare things tomorrow more accurately if you have more details about your specific character.

Edit: for the time being, let's guess that your AC is around 40. One of the main thresholds has been 45 (+25ish), so let's say things hit you on around a 15 with the +4, and a 16 with the +5. .3 * 17 = 5.1 per swing. .25 * 20 = 5 per swing. On elite, this swings more towards the DR with that "low" of an AC since the thresholds go up. As you approach the higher ACs, AC has more value until you reach the big targets.

Edit2: also, higher damage per hit I believe swings things in favor of the AC as well, whereas lower damage per hit swings it in the direction of DR.

Impaqt
03-28-2007, 06:42 PM
This ia D20 System. Each 1 point of To-Hit, AC, and DC equates to 5%. THe ONLY acception to this is when you have reached plateu's where you are hitting on a 2, Or getting Hit ONLY on a 20.....

vyvy3369
03-28-2007, 06:46 PM
Exactly...but that 5% change either way can mean a drastic change in the amount of damage you take. It all depends on where you are in respect to the enemy's to-hit, your AC and how much damage they deal on each swing.

The best way to compare seems to be to take averages, since you never know how the dice are actually going to come out. They could roll 4 15s in a row one fight, making that DR3 really bad one time, or roll 5 16s the next time making that DR better.

Longinus
03-28-2007, 06:48 PM
It's not always that simple though. As Blazer mentioned, if you're near a threshold, the AC can make a very large difference.

Okay, yeah. I fell into the top-tier content groupthink mode again.

Impaqt
03-28-2007, 06:51 PM
In this game though, In high end elite content, Like WIzard King for Example.... You get hit all the time anyway..... you need a 50+ Ac to realize a benefit from AC it seems.....

I think DR is king.... I think the way I do the math is logical and it makes sense to me....

Inthe end though, +5 Adamantine Full Plate is Readily Available.. so there no reason not to have both.

vyvy3369
03-28-2007, 06:52 PM
Okay, yeah. I fell into the top-tier content groupthink mode again.
Yeah, if you're talking tanking elite things, your average cleric can probably just throw AC out the window :P. I remember one cleric on our server who ran around in robes and it didn't really make any difference to him.

vyvy3369
03-28-2007, 06:57 PM
I think DR is king.... I think the way I do the math is logical and it makes sense to me....
At first, I thought the same way. The problem is that you're assuming 20 hits, and that 1 AC makes that suddenly 21 hits, no matter what. In reality, gaining that 1 AC could make that only 10 hits instead of 20, or it could not change the number of hits at all.

The best way I've seen is to look at how many numbers they can hit you on, and compare that way. If they hit you 19/20 with the +5, and 19/20 with the +4, you're not losing anything by taking the DR. If they hit you with 18/20 with the +5 and 19/20 with the +4, you're probably still better off with the DR. On the other end of the scale they hit you 1/20 with the +5 and 2/20 with the +4, and the +5 is better.

So taken in the context of high-end elite content on a cleric, DR may very well be better. I don't know very many clerics that try to tank in these situations though, so normal seemed like a better choice for this analysis.

Longinus
03-28-2007, 07:01 PM
I don't know very many clerics that try to tank in these situations though, so normal seemed like a better choice for this analysis.

Obviously I have not been vocal enough about my Tanclericing. :)

Impaqt
03-28-2007, 07:10 PM
At first, I thought the same way. The problem is that you're assuming 20 hits, and that 1 AC makes that suddenly 21 hits, no matter what. In reality, gaining that 1 AC could make that only 10 hits instead of 20, or it could not change the number of hits at all.

The best way I've seen is to look at how many numbers they can hit you on, and compare that way. If they hit you 19/20 with the +5, and 19/20 with the +4, you're not losing anything by taking the DR. If they hit you with 18/20 with the +5 and 19/20 with the +4, you're probably still better off with the DR. On the other end of the scale they hit you 1/20 with the +5 and 2/20 with the +4, and the +5 is better.



Wow.. Yu COmpletely lost me..... Your saying 5% difference at one end of the scale makes "X" Difference and on the other end of the scale it makes "Y" Difference.....

I'm Sorry..... I believe 5% is 5% no matter where its at on the scale....... Math pretty much backs up that belief.......

I'm sure the OP is just as Confused as I am at this point....

Just go run Bam, Collect 15 Pieces of Ore and Turn em in to the dude at the end for a Set of +5 Adamantine Full Plate.

Gangwulfe
03-28-2007, 10:43 PM
If it was me, I would go with what one looks better.

:)

Gang

SaberMonkey
03-28-2007, 11:45 PM
On my healbot cleric I use +1 FP of Heavy Fort, +3 Deathblock FP, and +4 Acid Guard Adamantine FP of Command. I find myself using the Heavy Fort armor more often than not especially against ranged attackers.

vyvy3369
03-29-2007, 06:52 AM
I've been pretty happy with a suit of +1 Fearsome Fullplate of Invulnerability - it looks really cool primarily, and the Fearsome works surprisingly well. I went in GC Elite to test out Harm a while back and they were feared within 2 hits every time.

Edit: OK, I was able to make some generalizations that might help.
If the target hits you on a 4+, +1 AC is worth more than 3 DR if they deal ~55+ damage a hit.
If the target hits you on a 9+, +1 AC is worth more than 3 DR if they deal ~40+ damage a hit.
If the target hits you on a 14+, +1 AC is worth more than 3 DR if they deal ~25+ damage a hit.
If the target hits you on a 19+, +1 AC is worth more than 3 DR if they deal ~10+ damage a hit.

I'm sure I could probably get more precise, but since it's hard to tell exactly where an enemy falls at anyways, it should be close enough.

Broto
03-29-2007, 10:14 AM
Simple question.

What is better? +5 full plate or +4 Adamantine Full plate?

I have tried both and it kinda seems like +5 takes less overall damage but maybe it is in my head. Any DDO math guys care to speculate?

It depends on your play style. If you mostly run quests on normal I would say stick to the AC. If you find yourself most of the time running stuff on elite I would wear the adamantine. On high level elite quests that +1 AC means nothing. Your AC is already not high enough to avoid the attacks of the baddies. So considering you will probably get hit anyway, I'd go with the DR. At least the DR is a sure thing. Also as previously mentioned do some ore runs in the Black Anvil Mines. For 15 ore you can purchase a suit of +5 Adamantine armor, then the problem is really solved.

PurdueDave
03-29-2007, 10:28 AM
DR is pretty straightforward. It only helps when you get hit. If you're getting hit all the time it might be worth it. If not, then you probably won't notice much difference.

I figure if my AC's 40+ self buffed I'd go with more AC. If it's less I might start to lean towards some DR. That's purely subjective based on personal experience.

Zenako
03-29-2007, 11:01 AM
Now my clerics choice is between +5 and +3 Adamantine (as well as some Deathblock for special circumstance).

On low end quests, the extra AC is how I go, since the AC delta (factored in with party buffs from Paly. Rangers, Bards, etc) might push the AC up to the point of the general mobs needing very high number to even hit, thus decreasing the rate of damage taken significantly.

For mid level quests, it depends on the type of mobs being faced. Lots of low damage outputs, I use the Adamantine, since clipping 3 from every hit adds up and changing from being hit 35% to 45% of the time probably is a wash and it feels better to take smaller chunks of hurt.

In higher end quests or versus bosses AC is probably more important due to the magnitude of the damage being dealt. Clipping off 3 points from 30 point hits is a 10% reduction, but unless I am getting autohit with both AC's the avoidance of those extra hits seems more important.

The problem is, there is no one answer given the options you have available. Carry both, and swap as seems appropriate. I know I pop on the Deathblock whenever certain foes are lurking nearby.

I recently got some +3 FP mod fortification and will be thinking about how that stacks up. The one thing Clerics fear are criticals taking you down and the Fort on the Armor frees up another slot (usually Belt).

roscopico
03-29-2007, 11:11 AM
I'm Sorry..... I believe 5% is 5% no matter where its at on the scale....... Math pretty much backs up that belief.......

Depends on interpretation.

Look at this: say TANK A is getting hit by a mob's roll of 19. So thats 10% of the time. Consider TANK B, who has 1 less AC and therefore gets hit 15% of the time.

So comparing the 2: the guy with the lower AC gets hit 150% more often than the guy with the higher AC

the guy with the lower AC is taking 50% more damage, not 5% more, than the other one.

Impaqt
03-29-2007, 11:16 AM
Are there a Lot of 40+AC Clerics Running around?
10
13 +5 Full Plate
1 Dex Bonus (Most clerics should be able to hit a 12 dex
9 +5 Tower Sheild (If you can live with the penaties, If your a Healbot, theres no reason not to use one)
5 Shield of Faith(THis will Exceed all other deflection items)
3 Barkskin pot
--------
41
So with +4 Adamantine, You could get to 40 Still easlily.

vyvy3369
03-29-2007, 11:24 AM
9 +5 Tower Sheild (If you can live with the penaties, If your a Healbot, theres no reason not to use one)
Balance checks are already a bane of my cleric's existence. Having an even worse armor check penalty will be highly unadviseable soon - a 20 won't be a success on balance anymore soon.

Edit: also, Shield of Faith is currently +4. +2 base, +1 per 6 caster levels. It'll be +5 at level 18.

Impaqt
03-29-2007, 11:55 AM
THere are very few instances where balance is a major concern for a pure healbot cleric.... And it whould be reasonable to swap out to a diferent sheild in those situations.

But if you wana negate that, and with the correction to SOF, theres no way to get to 40 either way without relying on outside influences.... Maybe Chas Guards.... Chattering Ring.....

Zenako
03-29-2007, 12:02 PM
Are there a Lot of 40+AC Clerics Running around?
10
13 +5 Full Plate - Got this
1 Dex Bonus (Most clerics should be able to hit a 12 dex - Got this
9 +5 Tower Sheild (If you can live with the penaties, If your a Healbot, theres no reason not to use one) - Even took the feat
5 Shield of Faith(THis will Exceed all other deflection items) Yup
3 Barkskin pot Ranger Friends even better
--------
41
So with +4 Adamantine, You could get to 40 Still easlily.

Don't forget friendly Paladins and the like as well

Which is one on some quests, I CAN tank a bit. Drop a few cursespewer shots or destruction hits and the teams whole job goes easier.

Zenako
03-29-2007, 12:03 PM
arrgggh double post

Rite
03-29-2007, 12:12 PM
Very situational, if there are many mobs flying around and you expect to be hit multiple times for lower amounts then go addy. If there is a big baddy that has the chance of curb stomping you within 1-2 hits then go fp +5 as the 3 dr will not mean a thing. Keep both and swap as needed. If its high end content you might as well be wearing the addy as your AC means little anyway unless you can reach the 40's.

Blazer
03-29-2007, 04:21 PM
I feel order of importance for clerics, given the context of this discussion, should look something like this:


Heavy Fort - if you can't land an item somewhere else (ring, belt, shield, armor), then stick with the necklace from BAM; personally I wouldn't use a set of +1 FP of Heavy Fort, just because that is a 4 AC difference; that's a bit much for me to justify; getting critted sucks; dead clerics can't do much for a party.
DR - Stonemeld Plate here please for the DR 5. BAM plate if you have the Heavy Fort elsewhere, sure. Personally however, I'll take 5 DR over 1 AC. Combined with no crits, a rampaging Ogre or Troll whacks you 3 times, each for 20-25 points (since no crits, no huge numbers here); now those #s are more like 15-20. Good stuff. Wiz King or Chains and all those archers - those arrows are around 10pts of pierce damage. Assuming you've got fire resist up and are using Stonemeld, those are now 5pts pierce from arrows. 50% reduction - nice.
HP - please clerics everywhere, stop using CON as a dump stat. If I PUG with another Drow cleric who has barely crossed the 120 HP mark, I very well may scream.
AC - you can easily break 35 AC on a cleric; if you do it right, you can break 40, which is pretty nice. Should you run with a pally and ranger, you can possibly break 50, but I wouldn't count on that all the time.

Blazer
03-29-2007, 04:22 PM
Very situational, if there are many mobs flying around and you expect to be hit multiple times for lower amounts then go addy. If there is a big baddy that has the chance of curb stomping you within 1-2 hits then go fp +5 as the 3 dr will not mean a thing. Keep both and swap as needed. If its high end content you might as well be wearing the addy as your AC means little anyway unless you can reach the 40's.

If you have the chance of getting "curb stomped", then the 1 AC won't matter, UNLESS you are at a threshold. 3 or 5 DR > 1 AC in most cases.

Longinus
03-30-2007, 06:00 AM
Are there a Lot of 40+AC Clerics Running around?
10
13 +5 Full Plate
1 Dex Bonus (Most clerics should be able to hit a 12 dex
9 +5 Tower Sheild (If you can live with the penaties, If your a Healbot, theres no reason not to use one)
5 Shield of Faith(THis will Exceed all other deflection items)
3 Barkskin pot
--------
41
So with +4 Adamantine, You could get to 40 Still easlily.

I dunno about the Rest of Ya'll, but I'm looking at...

10 (Base)
12 (Stonemeld Plate)
7 (+5 Heavy Steel Shield)
4 (18 Dex + Dwarven Armour Mastery III)
4 (SoF)
2 (Invaders Ring)
2 (Chaosgarde)
--------
41.

As soon as I get my Seal of Earth and Chattering Ring I'll be sitting pretty at a nice 43. :)

arminius
07-31-2007, 09:49 AM
If you have the chance of getting "curb stomped", then the 1 AC won't matter, UNLESS you are at a threshold. 3 or 5 DR > 1 AC in most cases.

Ugh, is "curb stomped" a reference to a scene in the movie American History X? That scene was definitely stomped into my memory forever.

Back on topic, if you don't have +5 adamantine fp, then get +5 <anything> fp <of anything> and the Golden Greaves boots, which are 15% striding and 3dr/-.

_

Blazer
07-31-2007, 11:01 AM
Ugh, is "curb stomped" a reference to a scene in the movie American History X? That scene was definitely stomped into my memory forever.

Not really sure what the original context was since this thread is 4 MONTHS OLD.

JayDubya
07-31-2007, 11:03 AM
I went through and mapped out exactly how much damage one would receive in combat with DR 0, 3 and 5, against mobs that hit for average damage of 20, 40 and 60

You can see all my work in this handy dandy google spreadsheet. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p1YPpc7K3l5d3irWBWgFxGw)

Consider a canonical case - you have a 40 AC with DR/0 vs a 39 AC with DR/3

Compare and contrast the two pages. If the mobs have a 35 +to hit, and do 40 average damage that means:

With a 40 AC, you'll take 600 damage
With a 39 AC and DR/3 you'll take 592


But if the mobs hit for 60 points of damage
With a 40 AC, you'll take 900
With a 39 AC and DR/3 you'll take 912
With a 39 AC and DR/5 you'll take 880


Your commentary about 40 AC as "enough" is hard to reconcile with the huge variety of factors that come into play in every single combat - are you hasted, do you have SoF, are the monsters Prayered or Recited, do they have haste, are they blind, are they attacking from behind, etc. I humbly submit that you ignore these theoretical plateaus, and focus on the "spread of possibilities" - every single combat will involve a range of to hits, ACs and damage/swing.


Which leads me to the bottom line that, generally speaking, if you're going to get hit 5% more often, you want DR that will reduce the average damage per swing by more than 5%. In that situation, Fullplate of Giants or other DR/5 armor is huge, because any -1 to AC is more than offset by the fact that no monster hits for more than 100 points per swing. DR/3 armor is also good, because very few monsters hit for 60 points/swing (on average). This is especially true if you have Heavy/Medium fort.


It's only when you're down in the shield range of DR/1 and DR/2 that you even come close to potentially washing out. For example, a +4 adamantine shield is almost certainly inferior to a +5 normal shield in the high end. The additional DR just isn't enough against mobs that easily hit for 20 pts/hit.

Teldaenar
07-31-2007, 11:05 AM
I would go with the +5 FP over the Mithril.. assuming you have a Dex of 10. I gave up my +5 FP for a +1 FP of the Magi. IMHO, the 100SP are more usefull to me and my Group. :)

arminius
07-31-2007, 11:11 AM
Not really sure what the original context was since this thread is 4 MONTHS OLD.

Heh, with the purge, it was still near the top of the list, so it looked new to me.... :)

_

Blazer
07-31-2007, 11:52 AM
Heh, with the purge, it was still near the top of the list, so it looked new to me.... :)

I realize that and I apologize in advance if you took offense to my use of capitalization.

I realize that with the forum work yesterday it seems many old threads came to surface as the most recent ones. I've read more than a dozen "necro'ed" threads and I'm just going a bit crazy when I see them.

Malkir
08-07-2007, 10:56 AM
I really like fearsome armor, it works even in the GH elite quests quite often.

I got lucky in a PoP run a few days ago and a friend pulled some +3 fearsome mithral fullplate that I'm using now.

One less AC than my old +5 FP (due to higher dex bonus), and I like the lower armor check penalty. And like I said, fearsome is awesome.

Blue Dragonscale plate is probably the best for a caster type cleric though. That plus the +5 con bulwark is what I'm going for anyway.

I'm not sold on using the reaver tower shield, I get knocked down all the time it seems, so even more armor check doesn't really appeal to me.

And unless you are using a +6 wis neck, you can't go wrong with the heavy fort neck. It takes like 30 minutes to solo the quest.

Shyver
08-07-2007, 01:55 PM
I've got some Fearsome Fullplate of Invulnerability waiting for me at 12 that I think is gonna be nice. We'll see though.

Figured this was a good route to go since unless your pushing AC 50 in the hold you're getting hit. Figure I'm not going to get there so I might as well make thigns interesting if I'm gonna get hit. :D