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twohands
01-01-2007, 01:38 AM
In response to some bad groups I have been in recently I decided to put up a quick hint list for each character type in order to help steer newer players in the right direction. This could also benifit "experienced" players that have problems finding groups becuase people always seem to be upset with them during the mission.
(A litte MMO background on myself. I played DAoC when servers were just starting to get max level characters. I was a guild leader then. I played SWG before SOE changed the game into the unplayable **** it is today. I was a guild officer and almost a max level Jedi. I played CoH for a while. Guild Wars. World of Warcraft (big surprise) I know MMO tactics well. I ussually pull out succesfull missions when failure was eminent)

Group Leader:
1.Lead! Learn to use the group generation tool well. Be proactive in finding people to fill spots. Always have: Healer, Couple Tanks, Caster or rouge depending on mission.
2. Designate a person to "run" the quest. This person whould know the quest, know where to go and be strong enough to be a bit ahead of the group (Ranger/Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin)
3. If someone isnt helping, or is making obvious mistakes, direct them accordingly, but remove them to perserve the group.
4. Remind the group to do the basic 3 "S's"
Stay Together
Stick to your roles
STOP getting too much aggro

Fighter/ Paladin/ Barbarian
Your AC: Learn about what makes your AC higher. Understand the concept behind max dex bonus and what that means. Pay attention to what level gear you are wearing. A fighter with good gear is an irresplacable asset.
Your Weapon: I dont tell anyone what weapon they should use. Tastes vary. But a fighter is too basic in order to have only one weapon. Think of playing golf. You need a lot of different clubs becuase your golf ball could be in sand or rough or the green. A frost weapon, a good weapon, an adamantine weapon, a fire weapon, an acid burst weapon. WHATEVER The last thing you want is to fight an elemental and see yellow zeroes floating above your head.
(Paladin)
Your build is the subject of much debate. STR/WIS/CHR all important. You are still a fighter so . . . dex? con? (some people disregard this stat altogether)

Rouge
SKILLS! It is embarrasing to fail a disable device. It happens, but 3 times in a row and I question your usefullness to a group. You are not a terribly big help in combat (before I get massively flamed for this, I KNOW a rouge can be a terriblly fearsome foe in combat, but in general . . . work with me here) You simply CANNOT rush into combat with the fighters. Dance around them, sneak some hits in on an enemy that is already focused on a tank. Archery is great, be wary of aggro (Hitting Zared Mightyhoof three times with your crossbow is a good way to get killed if he rushes you)

Wizard (and to some extent Sorcerer)
Spell selection is important. Having a lot of spells to select from are also important (sorry Sorcs) My wizard has EVERY level 1-3 spell in his spellbook, expensive but I am ALWAYS usefull. Communicate with your party leader and set up your spells to what would be best for the mission. You might love glitterdust or scorching ray, but if the group wants haste or you need spells versus undead becuase you are doing deleras tomb. Try to compromise. Be wary of your SP usage, but dont just cast a spell or two ever encounter, You should be almost out of SP by the time you rest. Make the most out of the SP you have. That critical web might save a party wipe, why not cast 2 or 3 just to be sure.
Sorcerers
Be forthcoming about your spells. By all means memorize what you are comfotable with, but let your leader know what spells he can expect.

Cleric
This is the hardest argument and one that may never be solved. I can personally say I will NEVER be a cleric. A party wipe is not necessarily your fault, but it will probably be blamed on you, so do your best to make sure it doesnt happen. Healing should be priority for the main tank and the off tank. (even though the off tank is a weak drow weilding two khopeshes becuase he wants to get the most kills. Heal him becuase he will take more damage and becuase . . . he will get the most kills) There are some clerics who like to attack but limiting te mobs to peons vice named ogre chieftans will be a better choice. A great cleric can down anything that threatans the wizard while healing everyone. Situational awarness is key. Where people are, what the group is about to do... etc etc.

Bard
I have never played with a bard that was useless or didnt contribute to the group. Either is is an easy class to play (doubtful) or only the most dedicated team players pick bards to play (more likely) all I can say to bards is:
KEEP UP the good work.

There is always going to be people who dont "get it" and cause headaches for groups.
(I met a dwarf cleric who told everyone "I dont heal I am a fighter cleric")
I hope this little guide helps some people figure "it" out and the next time they wont have the leader of their group pop the last chest in tangleroot while they are AFK and standing in the trap field. (True story, and if you dont know the outcome go run tangleroot and try it on someone)

philo
01-01-2007, 10:10 AM
release the hounds!:eek:

Craggath
01-01-2007, 11:15 AM
A couple suggestions for the list for wizards:

For non boss mobs never aggro something thats you can't independently
1) kill
2) Crowd controll
3) outrun
Because thier gonna hunt you down if you do.

Also, watch what the other arcane caster is doing (if you have another one) If hes webbong don't fireball--ball lightning instead. And if hes hypnotizing don't damage anything because unhypnotized mobs go right for the guy that broke the hypnotism. This turns ugly when a squishy fireballs 5 hypnotized trolls.

VonBek
01-01-2007, 11:17 AM
Some of the PUGs, and Guilds can make the game frustrating. It's a shame, and I've shared your frustration. Not as a seasoned veteran, nut as a lowly n008. So, I'll bounce this back at you; perhaps as a friendly challenge.

First here's where I'M coming from:

This is my FIRST MMORPG. I soloed a LONG time to learn "it". That helped, but it fell short because group dynamics create a significantly different game.

I grouped with PUGs. Most PUGs I've grouped with charge through a map like a bull in a china shop. Usually, one or two of the PUG know the map intimately, and run through like madmen. I had to just keep swinging and running without thinking, and I learned some BAD habits from this. I learned to not stop and ask questions. I learned to not look and analyze the setting. I learned to grunt. And most sadly, my Jedi friend, it taught me that Soloing rewarded more than Grouping since groups were just the guys who knew lots more than me and didn't care about anything but the kill count and loot. (I know better, now.)

My first guild experience was better, but but still resembled the PUG experience, too much. Until I mentioned that I was a soloer first, AND STILL LEARNING GROUPING. Then one of the players did something miraculous. He started coaching me through in-game tells. Many things went "click" in my head, from this. We took less damage. The campaign got much easier.

That was a recent epiphany. It probably stands as the one reason I renewed, instead of cancelling. So here's where I bounce it to you:

Statistically, I should not be the only player who could benefit from an experienced player sharing some pointers. I read your post and see some really good points. But some of them are lost in the "rant" tone you lead with. And I'd really hate for them to get lost because you bring some really good info to the front. I hope you'll revise it here, or re-post in the Newbies section as a constructive piece. Make it better for all us, in addition to "getting it off your chest".

Valiena
01-02-2007, 12:42 AM
Rouges should go on women's faces. However Rogue's should be able to disarm traps. I suspect if you want them to listen to you, do not repeatedly misspell their name.

Aranticus
01-02-2007, 10:21 AM
2. Designate a person to "run" the quest. This person whould know the quest, know where to go and be strong enough to be a bit ahead of the group (Ranger/Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin)

does not always works... they began puttin multiple spawn points for possiblity of a trap. imo, a rog in stealth mode is still the one coz they can detect the trap n spot mobs w/o getting agro


Fighter/ Paladin/ Barbarian
Your AC: Learn about what makes your AC higher. Understand the concept behind max dex bonus and what that means. Pay attention to what level gear you are wearing. A fighter with good gear is an irresplacable asset.
Your Weapon: I dont tell anyone what weapon they should use. Tastes vary. But a fighter is too basic in order to have only one weapon. Think of playing golf. You need a lot of different clubs becuase your golf ball could be in sand or rough or the green. A frost weapon, a good weapon, an adamantine weapon, a fire weapon, an acid burst weapon. WHATEVER The last thing you want is to fight an elemental and see yellow zeroes floating above your head.

feats are also just as important. my ftr has only 40 ac unlike some uber tanks with 50+ but i get hit less often. y? i stun n trip. if they cant fight back, they cant deal dmg. of coz my vertigo weapon helps :D


(Paladin)
Your build is the subject of much debate. STR/WIS/CHR all important. You are still a fighter so . . . dex? con? (some people disregard this stat altogether)

my pally only has 10 con, but not many pple think its gimped. it really depends on what u use the pally for. my main role is not to tank the melee mobs but to load myself with buffs and with high saving throws to take out the enemy casters who can decimate your frontline tanks. a pally is more than just build for fighting :mad:


Cleric
This is the hardest argument and one that may never be solved. I can personally say I will NEVER be a cleric. A party wipe is not necessarily your fault, but it will probably be blamed on you, so do your best to make sure it doesnt happen. Healing should be priority for the main tank and the off tank. (even though the off tank is a weak drow weilding two khopeshes becuase he wants to get the most kills. Heal him becuase he will take more damage and becuase . . . he will get the most kills) There are some clerics who like to attack but limiting te mobs to peons vice named ogre chieftans will be a better choice. A great cleric can down anything that threatans the wizard while healing everyone. Situational awarness is key. Where people are, what the group is about to do... etc etc.

situational awarness isnt just for clr, its for everyone. what u are implying isnt fair to the clr that tries real hard to follow a party where there are zergs. we have only so much sp n limited range, our heals cant pass thru barriers. ALL party members have to be aware of that

Zyklon
01-02-2007, 10:53 AM
Nice posts dude. How about post them on your Server page. You might want to title them as "Hey, if you group with me, you better play your toon my way, cuz I know best!"

:rolleyes:

Zenix_Leviticus
01-02-2007, 02:45 PM
I have one simple strategy for not being a drain on the group.

Play WITH the group. This may mean some of the folowing or more:

If you are an offensive mage and the group needs CC, Just do it.
If you are a Battle Cleric and the group needs a healer, Just do it.
If your fighter is a two handed modo axe wielding guy and the group needs a tank that uses a shield, Just do it.

If you can't meet the needs of the group, Just tell them so and politely leave
the group.

Sounds easier than it really is, but it is simple.

twohands
01-03-2007, 06:05 AM
Nice posts dude. How about post them on your Server page. You might want to title them as "Hey, if you group with me, you better play your toon my way, cuz I know best!"

It does sound like that. I agree. I also know that when my group is having problems I step in and start telling people what to do instead of asking people what to do. That sounds like I am taking the fun out of it, but I only do this as long as it takes to get the group through the bad times so we can start having fun again. Party wipes are not fun. I try to diplomatically discuss how to "fix" the situation. However I do resort to drastic measures every once and a while. When I do this it ussually works. We went from being faced with a situation that everyone thought hopeless to a completed mission and more xp/loot/plat. I find that when things get tough most people readily accept orders and if everything turns out I ussually have people asking to add me to their friends list. I do this becuase I have done it over half a dozen different MMO games, and it works. I dont think people are stupid, but sometiems people dont know what to do or dont know the best way to play their character.

Allasar
01-03-2007, 07:33 AM
It does sound like that. I agree. I also know that when my group is having problems I step in and start telling people what to do instead of asking people what to do. That sounds like I am taking the fun out of it, but I only do this as long as it takes to get the group through the bad times so we can start having fun again. Party wipes are not fun. I try to diplomatically discuss how to "fix" the situation. However I do resort to drastic measures every once and a while. When I do this it ussually works. We went from being faced with a situation that everyone thought hopeless to a completed mission and more xp/loot/plat. I find that when things get tough most people readily accept orders and if everything turns out I ussually have people asking to add me to their friends list. I do this becuase I have done it over half a dozen different MMO games, and it works. I dont think people are stupid, but sometiems people dont know what to do or dont know the best way to play their character.

Hmm, given your trolling the other day about Battleclerics (look at all the positive responses that garnered :)), this sounds like more of the same.

Again, please, please, please don't ever invite me to one of your groups.

Argus_Kos
01-03-2007, 08:32 AM
Pay attention. Talk in voice chat. Dont bring your half-butted "just for fun" chr into a group. Being a leech is bad. Random idiot builds should be for solo only.


Oh and warforged should realize they only have an opinion if we give it to them. :p

Aranticus
01-03-2007, 08:42 AM
It does sound like that. I agree. I also know that when my group is having problems I step in and start telling people what to do instead of asking people what to do. That sounds like I am taking the fun out of it, but I only do this as long as it takes to get the group through the bad times so we can start having fun again. Party wipes are not fun. I try to diplomatically discuss how to "fix" the situation. However I do resort to drastic measures every once and a while. When I do this it ussually works. We went from being faced with a situation that everyone thought hopeless to a completed mission and more xp/loot/plat. I find that when things get tough most people readily accept orders and if everything turns out I ussually have people asking to add me to their friends list. I do this becuase I have done it over half a dozen different MMO games, and it works. I dont think people are stupid, but sometiems people dont know what to do or dont know the best way to play their character.

suggestions should already be given before there is a chance for something disastrous happens. voicing out your opinons before things happen makes it easier for others to accept it. u may b trying as best to help solve the situation but many will still be offended.

just a point to note: its not always that people will listen. i had a L12 ftr/pal/rog mix in my party during an elite run of the spire in deleras cemetry. we were discussing hows the best way to take down the lich when w/o saying anything he just went in. needless to say, 4 out of our 6 members died trying to rescue that idiot. and what he did next was simply intolerable. he recalled n broke party. once he was out of the picture, we completed with 5 players w/o any deaths or major incidents

Zyklon
01-03-2007, 11:30 AM
It does sound like that. I agree. I also know that when my group is having problems I step in and start telling people what to do instead of asking people what to do. That sounds like I am taking the fun out of it, but I only do this as long as it takes to get the group through the bad times so we can start having fun again. Party wipes are not fun. I try to diplomatically discuss how to "fix" the situation. However I do resort to drastic measures every once and a while. When I do this it ussually works. We went from being faced with a situation that everyone thought hopeless to a completed mission and more xp/loot/plat. I find that when things get tough most people readily accept orders and if everything turns out I ussually have people asking to add me to their friends list. I do this becuase I have done it over half a dozen different MMO games, and it works. I dont think people are stupid, but sometiems people dont know what to do or dont know the best way to play their character.

Like I said, go to your Server page and post your threads about your experiences with the other players on Mabar. You are ranting about people on your server so voice it there.

Craggath
01-03-2007, 01:28 PM
Pay attention. Talk in voice chat. Dont bring your half-butted "just for fun" chr into a group. Being a leech is bad. Random idiot builds should be for solo only.


Oh and warforged should realize they only have an opinion if we give it to them. :p

I hope your being sarcastic. (I can never tell sarcasm from sincerity)

GeneralDiomedes
01-03-2007, 01:46 PM
does not always works... they began puttin multiple spawn points for possiblity of a trap. imo, a rog in stealth mode is still the one coz they can detect the trap n spot mobs w/o getting agro


Or a scout specced ranger.

DuckOfDeath
01-03-2007, 04:02 PM
To OP,

Between this thread and your battlecleric thread I would suggest you stop posting threads about how people should play. Play the way that is fun for you and stop partying with the people that dont suit your style but stop trying to get people to play the way you want them to.

One thing you might want to try is playing in a non-typical party. Like a party with no tanks or no cleric or no caster. It may make you more self reliant to provide what they do and make it so you can handle the players with different play styles instead of overreacting.

Tarackian
01-03-2007, 04:19 PM
Let me say I played with a wizard in medium level dungeons who felt the need to be in the middle of the front line swinging a sword wearing a robe. Needless to say he is on my AVOID list. Is he not playing his role? I don't really care...what he was doing was being a mana sponge and contributing nothing to the party's survival. After repeated attempts to explain how he could help everyone survive, I just added them to the list. In higher level dungeons, teamwork IS required to survive and succeed. So to all you out there who thinks that a 11th level wizard is better off tanking during Chains of Flame...have at it...just not in my party. Like it or not each class is better at something than others. Deal with it.

Oh yes...if you don't like the party leadership, exit. It is their party, they took the time and responsibility to form it. If you a leader, lead but be nice about it...you'll get more out of people by being polite and nice instead of an A**H**E.

Vincenz
01-03-2007, 04:33 PM
Why does a guy with 3 low level characters feel qualified to start publishing playing guides?

nedpowers386
01-03-2007, 04:37 PM
Nice posts dude. How about post them on your Server page. You might want to title them as "Hey, if you group with me, you better play your toon my way, cuz I know best!"

:rolleyes:

Concurring here on sooooo many levels.

Grow up, son.

It will do you a world of good.

GeneralDiomedes
01-03-2007, 04:39 PM
Why does a guy with 3 low level characters feel qualified to start publishing playing guides?

Cause he's so fun to party with.

Vincenz
01-03-2007, 04:40 PM
Cause he's so fun to party with.

LOL...yeah, I can see that already! Here's hoping a bunch of casters join his group, summon trolls, cast grease, and recall.

Aranticus
01-05-2007, 10:42 AM
To OP,

Between this thread and your battlecleric thread I would suggest you stop posting threads about how people should play. Play the way that is fun for you and stop partying with the people that dont suit your style but stop trying to get people to play the way you want them to.

One thing you might want to try is playing in a non-typical party. Like a party with no tanks or no cleric or no caster. It may make you more self reliant to provide what they do and make it so you can handle the players with different play styles instead of overreacting.

by any chance if ya play in riedra hook up with me... been wanting to try a 6 clr invaders party :D

Aranticus
01-05-2007, 10:45 AM
LOL...yeah, I can see that already! Here's hoping a bunch of casters join his group, summon trolls, cast grease, and recall.

u forgot create undead :eek:

btw i'm almost like wat ur sig says but i look nothing like that... 4 mths of medical leave helps :D

Brummbar
01-05-2007, 01:32 PM
To OP.

Welcome to DDO Forums.

If you want conflict, keep posting with the slant you have so far. Perhaps you like a rile people up? I don't know. But, keep in mind it's """not""" hard to do here.

But a suggestion from someone who has been reading the forums darn near every day since release.....my 'suggestion'...

Don't tell "How to play' or don't tell people 'How to build a group or toon'.

Thats just inviting am avalanche of negativity your way. Unless thats what you want. ALMOST all the people who are reading your post Twohander, have VASTLY MORE experience in Stormreach than you do.

Does that make them right? No.

But I don't try to tell my grandfather how to think.. he's already set in his ways and with his opinions, so why try....... just a thought so you don't create SOOOO much ill will toward you that the mere sight of a post from you causes groans.....

just a thought.

Therigar
01-05-2007, 01:44 PM
I read your post and see some really good points. But some of them are lost in the "rant" tone you lead with. And I'd really hate for them to get lost because you bring some really good info to the front. I hope you'll revise it here, or re-post in the Newbies section as a constructive piece. Make it better for all us, in addition to "getting it off your chest".

I agree entirely. As a relatively new player there are some good things in the original post -- but as we can see from most of the responses, it gets lost in the rant tone of the message.

IMO the best advice being given is to find your role and to try to fit into it. Be flexible enough, especially in PUGs, to adjust to what is needed.

The original post has a lot of good ideas that, if they were polished a bit and the dogma (like what seems to be a dislike of battle clerics) is taken out, could be really useful.

Oh, and I agree that we could all benefit from knowing how to spell rogue. Thief was so much easier.... ;)

Therigar

Strakeln
01-05-2007, 01:56 PM
Rouge - You are not a terribly big help in combat (before I get massively flamed for this, I KNOW a rouge can be a terriblly fearsome foe in combat, but in general . . . work with me here) You simply CANNOT rush into combat with the fighters.
Arrrgh. If your rogue is getting beaten up, chances are it is your TANK who is not doing their job. I don't think I have ever - EVER! - seen any tank besides my barbarian use intimidate. If you're a tank and you can't kill ALL mobs in the area within a few swings, you should be firing off initimidate every time the cooldown timer finishes.

Every fighter is so worried about their kill count that they never seem to grasp the idea that they can often be more effective by not killing anything. Give my barbarian 1 or 2 rogues in his party and you'll see mobs go down faster than they would with 3 fighters.

Strakeln
01-05-2007, 02:09 PM
Wizard (and to some extent Sorcerer)
Spell selection is important. Having a lot of spells to select from are also important (sorry Sorcs) My wizard has EVERY level 1-3 spell in his spellbook, expensive but I am ALWAYS usefull. Communicate with your party leader and set up your spells to what would be best for the mission. You might love glitterdust or scorching ray, but if the group wants haste or you need spells versus undead becuase you are doing deleras tomb. Try to compromise. Be wary of your SP usage, but dont just cast a spell or two ever encounter, You should be almost out of SP by the time you rest. Make the most out of the SP you have. That critical web might save a party wipe, why not cast 2 or 3 just to be sure.
Sorcerers
Be forthcoming about your spells. By all means memorize what you are comfotable with, but let your leader know what spells he can expect.
No offense, dude, but your lack of experience is really showing today.

1) Nope, spell selection is not all that important. You tend to use the same spells over and over and over. Anything else is situational and can be scrolled for those few times you need it.
2) No, you should NOT be out of mana by the time you rest. If you're a team player, you'll have enough mana left over to buff the entire party after they rest - heroism/greater heroism, blur, resist energies, jump, pro evil, etc. THEN you rest. This way the cleric's DVs aren't spent bringing your mana back up immediately after you rest and buff the party.
3) Casting multiple webs is only useful in larger, more open areas. If you cast two overlapping webs and a mob saves on the first one, you grant the mob "web immunity" (check your combat log). This means that they can step through your first web and into the second web, while only making one save check. Way to go! You just wasted mana!

Sorry, bro , but your advice sounds exactly like what it is - coming from someone who has a level 9, 5, and 3 character. Come back to this thread when all three characters are 10+ and you've hit 1750, you'll get a big kick out of just how silly some of the things you're saying are.

EDIT - let me re-phrase the spell selection part... it is important, but the ability to swap spells around is not. Select the important spells and scroll the remaining useful ones.

Aranticus
01-05-2007, 06:52 PM
Arrrgh. If your rogue is getting beaten up, chances are it is your TANK who is not doing their job. I don't think I have ever - EVER! - seen any tank besides my barbarian use intimidate. If you're a tank and you can't kill ALL mobs in the area within a few swings, you should be firing off initimidate every time the cooldown timer finishes.

Every fighter is so worried about their kill count that they never seem to grasp the idea that they can often be more effective by not killing anything. Give my barbarian 1 or 2 rogues in his party and you'll see mobs go down faster than they would with 3 fighters.

same thing with my ftr. i trip n stun then melee another, leaving that 2 for th rog to pick off... auto backstab :D

Harrington
01-09-2007, 10:23 AM
Also, watch what the other arcane caster is doing (if you have another one) If hes webbong don't fireball--ball lightning instead. And if hes hypnotizing don't damage anything because unhypnotized mobs go right for the guy that broke the hypnotism. This turns ugly when a squishy fireballs 5 hypnotized trolls.

My absolute biggest pet peve about PUGing with another arcane is when they fireball my heightened webs. Good lord, how can you be level 10+ an not understand what you just did?

Clay
01-09-2007, 11:23 AM
I hope that people understand what the little red circle over the mobs heads means...

If the group gangs up on them together, one at a time, not worrring about their individual kill count... the whole group benefits. Especially focussing on the casters.

In an elite Butchers Path the other day, the whole group was lvl 1 and 2. I am on my mage and am only lvl 1. I have 160 spell points and no web. But Hypnotize is a great CC spell. Or so i thought.

No one had resist pots... yet every time i hypno'd the group they un hypno every mob and kill the easy ones in the front first while the poor cleric is trying to keep up with the damage of the lightning bolts ripping thru eveyone by the shamans in the back ...

People left, one paladin stayed and the two of us went on to do ww... We didn't even need a cleric... He jumped over the hypno'd ones and killed them off one a time as they made their saves. Easy.

Hypnotism is a great spell and i still use it in the highest level content

Ryd16
01-09-2007, 01:26 PM
Arrrgh. If your rogue is getting beaten up, chances are it is your TANK who is not doing their job. I don't think I have ever - EVER! - seen any tank besides my barbarian use intimidate. If you're a tank and you can't kill ALL mobs in the area within a few swings, you should be firing off initimidate every time the cooldown timer finishes.

Every fighter is so worried about their kill count that they never seem to grasp the idea that they can often be more effective by not killing anything. Give my barbarian 1 or 2 rogues in his party and you'll see mobs go down faster than they would with 3 fighters.



INDEED!
Do you know what a level 12 rogue with backstab training enhancement and dual wielding weapons with backstab bonuses and other enhancements can do to a mob that has aggro on the tank? Let me just tell you the festival of red numbers that I see over the enemy as I cuisinart that MF!!
Just be smart enough that if aggro switches to you that you can get it off of you or be able to run like hell until the tank gets the aggro back ;)
Either way the only thing I can agree with the OP is that no rogue should be taking the first swing. If he's able to sneak past the front lines and get to the mages he may indeed be useful as well, but mostly its all about assisting the tanks take huge amounts of red bar off of the monsters.
Ryd

Kel Shadowhand level 12 elven rogue
Elvinred level 12 human paladin

CrimsonEagle
01-09-2007, 05:06 PM
Flaming aside, this is a pretty interesting thread and could turn out to be beneficial for those of us who are new. I don't know if the intent of the OP's post was to "tell" a person how to play their character or not. I read it as I read all post's, as suggestion's be it a tactics post or a build post. I read these forums every single day because I realize that there are players in this game that have forgotten more than I possibly will ever know.

No, I'm not an uber player, I'm still fairly new and there is still a lot in this game that I have to learn. What follows is more for the sake of gaining knowledge for myself and others who are not as knowledgeable as those of you who have been playing this game since beta.

Some things that I write will be questions, others will be observation that I have noticed of things that happen quite frequently.

Question 1.
I have noticed a common theme in all of the melee threads that I have read. Jump over the melee mobs and go after the casters. A thought occurred to me. A flashback really, to a book that I read a few years ago.(Sword of Truth series) The saying in the book was Steel against Steel, Magic against Magic, or something like that.

Does this make sense? Is if feasible?

I have not been able to see if this works in practice. My main is only a level 9(like I said, I am not uber, and I still have a lot to learn) paladin and up to this point I have been doing what I have been instructed to do. Kill the casters. Jump over everything to get to the casters. Seek and destroy the arcane.

I definitely agree that the casters MUST be taken down and taken down quick. They can turn a good run into a nightmare very quickly with the party's body parts being spread across the room. I am just wondering if it makes sense for myself, and the other melee to jump over all the mobs in our zeal to take down the casters, in effect leaving our casters vulnerable.

Does it make more sense to form a ring of steel around the casters trusting that they will do their best to take down the enemy's casters quickly all the while the casters/ranged are doing their thing all the while feeling secure in the fact that the melee will do their best to make sure that no sword touches the body of the caster/ranger?

I am not sure if this would work in the higher end quests. Has anyone tried it? Is this something that is already used in practice and I never received the memo?

In theory this makes sense to me. Could someone verify or disprove the effectiveness of this tactic and tell me the reasoning behind it if it will not work?

Next. Self sufficiency.

Why do I see so many players who are insistent on being fully dependant upon another player for basic needs? This is a thought process that is foreign to me, I do not understand it. There are potions, wands, and scrolls for just about everything, even at lower levels. There is absolutely no reason to not have potions. None. If you can use em there is also no reason to not carry wands and scrolls that you may need. (Unless you choose to play pure, no pimping, this is acceptable at lower levels because at that point gold is tough to come by)

Things I don't ask for. Restore, remove curse, remove fear (on alt's). I also specifically ask the healer to not top me off after a fight, and not worry about healing me in fight unless they see me drop massive hp's in a short amount of time. It is no ones "job" to take care of me, only I can do that. It is however the entire teams job to look out for each other in case they get in serious trouble.

Of course this is my personal play style, and yes there are many who play like this, but there are also many who do not. No, I am not telling anyone how to play, though I will admit that the above statement seems like common sense, but to each his/her own. It is possible to implement some solo tactics into group play. Self sufficiency is one of them. Of course this is just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.

Next. Crowd control.

Has there been enough stated about crowd control? Obviously not.

How many times has one of us been in an instance where a Bard Fascinates or a Wiz/sorc hypnotizes, steps back to look with pride at a job well done, when out of nowhere some lunatic rushes in and wakes every single creature? Every time that I see this while sitting here before my computer I can only shake my head and carry on. Once again, it makes no sense to me.

Or another good one. Caster casts web, or hypnotic pattern, or any other area of effect cc spell, and the fighters jump over and fight all of the mobs on the OTHER side of the cc spell. *Shrugs shoulders* I don't know...they must have better equipment than me and they feel that cc spells are just there for decoration. Me, I am thankful for anything that will take some of the heat off and I worship the feet of any caster that cc's effectively. No, its not a necessity, but is sure does make my life easer, but I guess that the only reason that I appreciate it so much is I am a gimp player.

This is only a couple things that I have written about. This game is multifaceted and there is so much to it that I am awed at how far we have come since the days of Pong.

I approach this game as I do with everything in life. There is always more that I can learn. There is always something that I can do to improve myself, something that can make me better. Chances are I will never become the "best" at anything, and I know for a fact that I will never ever know everything, but I am also willing to learn as much as I can with the time that I have. THAT is why I visit the forums. To learn. To make myself a better player.

There is to my mind only one thing that makes a player a gimp, not only in life, but in game as well. As soon as a person thinks that they know everything, as soon as a person thinks that there is no one better than themselves and they hold others in contempt because they are so arrogant as to believe that they are the best at anything they have lost. In all of the world there are very selected few that can claim to be the best at any given time, and eventually someone will come along and take their place. For the rest of us normal folks we can only try to do our best, with the knowledge that there will always be room for improvement.

If there was anything I think that would benefit the whole of the DDO world, it would be to encourage people to read the forums. There is an unbelievable amount of accured knowledge within these pages. Problem is that a person has to be dedicated to reading them and sift through all the chafe (flame wars created by the people who think they know everything) to reach the real gems held within.

Sorry this turned out to be a bit philosophical. Its part of my nature. I'm just curious how many will flame this little post? How many are positive that they are the most uber players in the world and they have nothing more to learn?

I only know what I know, and even what I think I know I may be wrong which means that I only think that I know what I know so in fact I may know nothing at all. Or as I like to say. The older I get the dumber I get. At 16 I thought I knew everything. Oh how wrong I was.

Just something to think about


Peace out.

CrimsonEagle

Craggath
01-09-2007, 07:50 PM
To answer some of your points: Some people frankly are bad players (Note: different from a new player). i.e the fighter that doesn't trip/sunder, avoid being flanked, and runs away from the wizards cc. Once someone is an bad player it is very difficult to make them see the error in their ways. I have found that the most effective way to get people to play smarter is to not tell them to "do this 'cause I know best" but to give hints so that they think it is their own idea, even though you provided the inspiration. Unfortunately this is very hard to do.

Now your question about tactics and your theory: If you form a "ring of steel" the whole party can be hit by AoE spells. A good example is the fireball-throwing troglodyte shamans. If you spread out, the fireball can only hit 1 or 2 people at a time.

If the mobs were smart having the warriors charging the casters in the back would be a horrible idea, because an enemy with any brains at all would bum-rush the guy in cloth rather than face a plated monstrosity with a greataxe. However, in DDO the mobs latch on to the first person they see and then change aggro according to who damages them the most. As long as the casters don't aggro a mob through damage they are perfectly safe unless a tank dies and the mobs re-agro.

Tanks who ignore cc...well see above.

Self Sufficiency: Well, to be self-sufficient in DDO you need a couple things: plat, motive, and initiative being immediately obvious to me. A person used to playing with a cleric that heals all his ailments does not have the motive to be self-sufficient. The cleric always takes care of his needs. (resulting in him relying on the cleric and making himself vulnerable should the cleric die.) Also a person has to have the initiative to stock up in extra supplies before a quest. And finally potions and such cost plat....but you already covered that.

And finally the part about steel and magic: use whatever advantage you have. If you can fight, use it. If you can cast, use it. If you can think, you'll use that all the time naturally. It doesn't matter what your opponent is, use everyting you can.

I think people flamed the OP because his tone was slightly "play your character this way." An example of this is the title of the thread. If it was titled "What most groups expect" he would have gotten a better response.

I'll stop now :)

/hat off to Crimson Eagle for everything he said in his post.

VonBek
01-11-2007, 09:52 AM
Why do I see so many players who are insistent on being fully dependant upon another player for basic needs? This is a thought process that is foreign to me, I do not understand it. There are potions, wands, and scrolls for just about everything, even at lower levels. There is absolutely no reason to not have potions. None. If you can use em there is also no reason to not carry wands and scrolls that you may need. (Unless you choose to play pure, no pimping, this is acceptable at lower levels because at that point gold is tough to come by)

Here's my twocents: Perhaps you see so many fully dependent players because most quests are optimized for a balanced party and most players expect the group members to function is fairly set ways. I get this POV, after watching a friend who CANNOT solo , because he's so immersed in group-think. OTOH I have to work hard to learn group play, because I've solo'd too much. We find our extremes counter productive.

The party functions as a single unit. A lone melee might solo a quest to completion, a party of melees can also complete a quest. But in both cases the quest will not be fully successful. It's challenge is typically met better by a mix of skills. The "task list" to defeat many quests responds to finnessed diversity better than rough brutality. Look at the "Batman" builds and you might find a well balanced party of one.

You bring self-sufficiency, but may not need it in group while someone is looking out for you. PC's adapt to their environment, and sometimes extremes become evident: such as fully dependent or horribly isolated players. Like most things - balance serves a wider scope.

In my example, we learned our behaviors to adapt to our particular needs. Friendly questions: Are you too rational, too balanced? Have you avoided extremes until they seem foreign or incomprehensible? Do your groups require you to take care of yourself more because each member is doing their own thing?

BTW, we've been working as a duo to adjust and learn - DDO "therapy group". I need less potions, he needs more. Balance.

Ghaldar
01-11-2007, 01:41 PM
I have one simple strategy for not being a drain on the group.

Play WITH the group. This may mean some of the folowing or more:

If you are an offensive mage and the group needs CC, Just do it.
If you are a Battle Cleric and the group needs a healer, Just do it.
If your fighter is a two handed modo axe wielding guy and the group needs a tank that uses a shield, Just do it.

If you can't meet the needs of the group, Just tell them so and politely leave
the group.

Sounds easier than it really is, but it is simple.

So true...

Is it that hard for folks to realize that the most success can be found in group before me attitude. In that philosophy we find the fundemental reason why PUGS often are flawed. The concept of me first etc. being the reason. I am not telling people how to play or how to be the best cleric/tank/uberwhatever here. Simply commenting on team first.

The really good pugs I have been in have always had the concept of WE involved. I think that is the true key to not being a drain on any group regardless of PUG or guild. Think of team before first and you will never be a drain, and almost always an asset.

ranran
01-17-2007, 04:19 PM
Rouges should go on women's faces. However Rogue's should be able to disarm traps. I suspect if you want them to listen to you, do not repeatedly misspell their name.

LOL - this should be required reading before entering DDO. roGUe is not roUGe! :D

Strakeln
01-17-2007, 04:50 PM
I had to respond again regarding hypnotize. I realize that it is a great spell, but I can't tell you how many times I've had an arcane hypno the mob that I'm already fighting, then b*tch when I hit it.

You don't hypno things I'm killing, and I won't kill things you're hypno-ing.

Craggath
01-17-2007, 06:03 PM
I haven't played a fighter much, but this would be annoying i it ever happens to me. With Hypnotize as an AoE spell though, the mob your fighting may be caught in the edge, so it could be nothing that stupid.

But then the casters your complaining about would see you immediately break the Hypno and instinctually whine.

Aranticus
01-17-2007, 08:00 PM
my tanks love hypno n so do my wiz. coordination is required when u throw the spell. when the caster is gonna cast it, he/she announces n i'll try group as many up. when my wiz is gonna cast it, i announce it before hand just so the rest know whats happening. this is the same with fascinate, sleep n other "hit n u wake" spells/effects. i'm still wondering how i got thru caravan elite yesterday which has a pally who was hitting at all the mobs the brd fascinated. there were at least 10 shouts to him to stop hitting n his response? "i'm lagging"... funny especially when we watched him hitting mobs all over the place for well over 2 min

Tavok
01-20-2007, 08:43 PM
To OP,

Between this thread and your battlecleric thread I would suggest you stop posting threads about how people should play. Play the way that is fun for you and stop partying with the people that dont suit your style but stop trying to get people to play the way you want them to.

One thing you might want to try is playing in a non-typical party. Like a party with no tanks or no cleric or no caster. It may make you more self reliant to provide what they do and make it so you can handle the players with different play styles instead of overreacting.

Although I agree that no one should be forced into playing the way others want, that can only be tolerated by the group to a certain extent. If someone wants to run into the room where the door locks behind them and there is 5 or 6 casters in the room, is that how they want to play? Yes. Is that conductive to the group? No, which might lead to some difficulties with the group itself because its not exactly helping anything... I believe the OP is not forcing them to play to his conformed style, he is merely suggesting strategies everyone should at least know (agro control, when to use what weapon, etc.).

EightyFour
01-20-2007, 09:23 PM
There is always going to be people who dont "get it" and cause headaches for groups.
(I met a dwarf cleric who told everyone "I dont heal I am a fighter cleric")
I hope this little guide helps some people figure "it" out and the next time they wont have the leader of their group pop the last chest in tangleroot while they are AFK and standing in the trap field. (True story, and if you dont know the outcome go run tangleroot and try it on someone)

If someone left their toon in the trap field and went afk, minus some big emergancy or maybe a family issue that they have to attend to, they deserve it. Esp. if they have been doing it a lot and holding up the quest forever.

Had one guy that wanted to pick all the flowers between each instance. If you want to pick flowers, do it on your own time, not mine.

Ghoste
01-31-2007, 02:08 PM
Like I said, go to your Server page and post your threads about your experiences with the other players on Mabar. You are ranting about people on your server so voice it there.

Calling his post a rant about specific people with no reason for anyone else on any other server to have any reason to learn from it...? Lol, whatever. Things he talked about are universal experiences. A lot of people can learn from his tips. For those who know everything already, and dont like to get any advice...well I guess posting any advice on this forum would be an offense to your uber-l33tness.

I can definitely relate to some of his points, and surprise of surprises, I play on a different server! I ran von 1 on elite yesterday with a "battle cleric" who not only wasnt healing anyone, but he ran ahead while the rest of the group was buffing up at the shrine. He ran into the arena and right up to one of the gates where the first mobs spawn. He died without landing a single hit. Now Zyklon will be pleased to hear that no one actually offended this uber-l33t battle cleric's greater sensibilities by suggesting he did anything wrong. But no one from that group is ever going to invite him again, despite the fact that clerics are in high demand.

So, group with people you enjoy grouping with. It doesnt hurt to give some advice, but too much? Well, you can look at it two ways. First, people can get offended easily, so it definitely helps to be as diplomatic as you can about it. Secondly, if someone is still going hardcore battle-cleric mode by the time they reach lvl 12, they're never going to get it, it's not worth the frustrating effort. They will always think it's everyone else's fault they couldnt solo the titan.

Zyklon
02-05-2007, 05:38 PM
But no one from that group is ever going to invite him again, despite the fact that clerics are in high demand.

Lol. Maybe you can just put a nasty little note in your Bio. BAD CLERIC LIST. :rolleyes:

Please go back and read the original post. Don't forget to read the part about how you should play YOUR wizard! lol :rolleyes:

Zyklon
02-05-2007, 05:43 PM
your uber-l33tness.

Calling me uber. That's rich. :)

Here how about reading the original post...

(A litte MMO background on myself. I played DAoC when servers were just starting to get max level characters. I was a guild leader then. I played SWG before SOE changed the game into the unplayable **** it is today. I was a guild officer and almost a max level Jedi. I played CoH for a while. Guild Wars. World of Warcraft (big surprise) I know MMO tactics well. I ussually pull out succesfull missions when failure was eminent)

lol.

Odyss
02-06-2007, 03:55 PM
I shuddered while I was reading your post with the foreknowledge of what responses you'd get. That said, your post isn't "wrong" - it's just not "right". Keep in mind that this is a fantasy role playing game where players can and will make and play their characters any way they like and will NOT appreciate being told how to play.

A strategy guide for not being a drain on a group imo can be much simpler.

1. Communicate with your party. Let your party know what role you wish to fill and what role you feel capable of filling. Not all warriors make good tanks and not all wizards, sorcerers and bards are crowd control experts. Some clerics are nullification specced and want to use every spell point they have on offensive casting. It's good to know something like that up front so another healer can be obtained. Furthermore, a silent party member is scary. You don't know if they're hearing/comprehending, you don't know their spec, and you don't know what role they desire to fill.

2. Aim to be self sufficient. It's really nice when you have a party with a healing cleric, a crowd controlling wizard, a dps'ing ranger, a trap disabling rogue, and two tanking warriors, but that's not always the case. Remember that every class in the game can carry potions for curing poison, disease, curse, fear, bane, immobilization, stat damage and health loss.

Throrin
02-06-2007, 06:34 PM
I have one simple strategy for not being a drain on the group.

Play WITH the group. This may mean some of the folowing or more:

If you are an offensive mage and the group needs CC, Just do it.
If you are a Battle Cleric and the group needs a healer, Just do it.
If your fighter is a two handed modo axe wielding guy and the group needs a tank that uses a shield, Just do it.

If you can't meet the needs of the group, Just tell them so and politely leave
the group.

Sounds easier than it really is, but it is simple.

THIS is the correct way not to be a burden for your party. While there are some roles we like to see filled by certain classes, it doesn't always happen. When your party has three bards, a ranger, and a fighter the typical roles won't suffice. When I was in a party like this, the three bards each adapted to a different playing style and rolled with the punches.

The key to working with the party is to be flexible and cooperative, regardless of your class. Always focus on the good of the party, not the good of yourself alone and things will go well.

Just had to add my 2 cents.

Ghoste
02-06-2007, 10:36 PM
Lol. Maybe you can just put a nasty little note in your Bio. BAD CLERIC LIST. :rolleyes:

Please go back and read the original post. Don't forget to read the part about how you should play YOUR wizard! lol :rolleyes:
Never said no one else should play with him, nor gave you any reason to think I was trying to get anyone else not to play with that specific person, but he's definitely convinced me that I dont enjoy playing with him.

As far as your comment on reading the original post, like I said, it helps to be more diplomatic about it than he was. I get the impression you dont like people giving strong advice. I may be wrong about that assumption about you, but to tell the truth, it bothers me too.

You have a good point that he was being "uber-l33t", my reaction to your comment was not based on your claims of accomplishments, but the ferocity with which you attacked his post, which like I said does come across a little strong, but still has many very valid points. If you cant stomach receiving suggestions from other people, then dont bother reading the guide section of the forums. Voluntarily going into a forum area geared toward other people giving advice, and telling someone who has done just that they are posting in the wrong forum just because you may take offense at him highlighting a topic that you take personal issue with makes no sense.

This is a party based game. Moreso than any other MMO I've ever seen. Some people are willing to bend their play style to make the party run more smoothly. Some aren't. I dont enjoy playing with those who arent, although that is a far cry from putting up blacklists. *rolls his eyes*

Uska
02-06-2007, 11:26 PM
It does sound like that. I agree. I also know that when my group is having problems I step in and start telling people what to do instead of asking people what to do. That sounds like I am taking the fun out of it, but I only do this as long as it takes to get the group through the bad times so we can start having fun again. Party wipes are not fun. I try to diplomatically discuss how to "fix" the situation. However I do resort to drastic measures every once and a while. When I do this it ussually works. We went from being faced with a situation that everyone thought hopeless to a completed mission and more xp/loot/plat. I find that when things get tough most people readily accept orders and if everything turns out I ussually have people asking to add me to their friends list. I do this becuase I have done it over half a dozen different MMO games, and it works. I dont think people are stupid, but sometiems people dont know what to do or dont know the best way to play their character.



The best way to play their character is how they have the most fun, NOT YOUR WAY!!!:mad: you might be get away with suggestions but you start getting bossy I bet you make more squelch lists then friends lists.

Ghoste
02-07-2007, 04:46 AM
The best way to play their character is how they have the most fun, NOT YOUR WAY!!!:mad: you might be get away with suggestions but you start getting bossy I bet you make more squelch lists then friends lists.

I think this sums it up best. A lot of the arguing in this thread is people trying to cubbyhole others on one extreme or the other (myself included), either too bossy, or too stubborn about doing things their own way. In reality, yeah, some people are like that. But most of the timea party can get along great giving each other polite and helpful advice.

thorleif
02-07-2007, 10:46 AM
It does sound like that. I agree. I also know that when my group is having problems I step in and start telling people what to do instead of asking people what to do. That sounds like I am taking the fun out of it, but I only do this as long as it takes to get the group through the bad times so we can start having fun again. Party wipes are not fun. I try to diplomatically discuss how to "fix" the situation. However I do resort to drastic measures every once and a while. When I do this it ussually works. We went from being faced with a situation that everyone thought hopeless to a completed mission and more xp/loot/plat. I find that when things get tough most people readily accept orders and if everything turns out I ussually have people asking to add me to their friends list. I do this becuase I have done it over half a dozen different MMO games, and it works. I dont think people are stupid, but sometiems people dont know what to do or dont know the best way to play their character.


I hear you....just make sure youre taking your game seriously and not yerself too seriously

apacheizm23
03-21-2007, 03:43 PM
Like I said, go to your Server page and post your threads about your experiences with the other players on Mabar. You are ranting about people on your server so voice it there.
I think hes just trying to make a point..:)

Viza
03-27-2007, 12:56 PM
How to not be a burden on your party rule number 231:

Buffs with positive and negative effects:

Don't cast rage (or any other spell with negative effects) on people without asking first. At best they'll ask you to stop. At worst they'll possibly give you a piece of their mind or drop party.

ALWAYS ask first. Rage drops your AC by 2. It's not polite to take 2 AC away from me without asking. In fact it's an affront. For evasion tanks wearing light armor, this is a make or break change on elite end game content. Don't do it. We don't want your rage. I'll say it again so it sinks in :

Don't cast rage (or any other spell with negative effects) on people without asking first, ever.

There seems to be a lot of people doing this lately and it really sucks. I'm capped and I'll not hesitate to /death to get rid of it. At that point you've cost the cleric the mana to res me (or party is down by one tank) in addition to the mana used to cast rage. I do what it takes to get the point across when people don't listen. /death and res is actually cheaper than trying to keep an evasion tank alive with reduced ac.

I know your intentions are good.

Just don't do it.

I'd like to apologize in advance if you take offense to my tone, but it's getting very old continually getting raged without my consent.

-Viz

VonBek
03-27-2007, 10:38 PM
How to not be a burden on your party rule number 231:

ALWAYS ask first. Rage drops your AC by 2. It's not polite to take 2 AC away from me without asking. In fact it's an affront. For evasion tanks wearing light armor, this is a make or break change on elite end game content. Don't do it.
I know your intentions are good.

Just don't do it.

I'd like to apologize in advance if you take offense to my tone, but it's getting very old continually getting raged without my consent.

-Viz

I'm not fond of Rage either.

BTW, does Rage stack with my Gloves of Str +3, while it drops my AC? I checked this using Rage clickie, and the answer was NO.

samho
03-28-2007, 05:40 AM
I'm not fond of Rage either.

BTW, does Rage stack with my Gloves of Str +3, while it drops my AC? I checked this using Rage clickie, and the answer was NO.

It should.

Actually rage clicky (or rage spell) could stack with almost everything in DDO. So I would suggest that you double check it again.

That's why I use rage clicky to boost temporary Strength and to-hit comes up with additional strength, and other DC with it. In the other hand, when I want to click my rage item, I always try to stand aside to active it -- unfortunately, sometimes you will still see the "You help somebody with Rage" message show up :(

Zenako
03-28-2007, 09:32 AM
How to not be a burden on your party rule number 231:

Buffs with positive and negative effects:

Don't cast rage (or any other spell with negative effects) on people without asking first. At best they'll ask you to stop. At worst they'll possibly give you a piece of their mind or drop party.

ALWAYS ask first. Rage drops your AC by 2. It's not polite to take 2 AC away from me without asking. In fact it's an affront. For evasion tanks wearing light armor, this is a make or break change on elite end game content. Don't do it. We don't want your rage. I'll say it again so it sinks in :

Don't cast rage (or any other spell with negative effects) on people without asking first, ever.

There seems to be a lot of people doing this lately and it really sucks. I'm capped and I'll not hesitate to /death to get rid of it. At that point you've cost the cleric the mana to res me (or party is down by one tank) in addition to the mana used to cast rage. I do what it takes to get the point across when people don't listen. /death and res is actually cheaper than trying to keep an evasion tank alive with reduced ac.

I know your intentions are good.

Just don't do it.

I'd like to apologize in advance if you take offense to my tone, but it's getting very old continually getting raged without my consent.

-Viz

Good point, it can be even worse on a character hoping to avoid aggro using weapons (destruction, curse, etc) trying to set up the mobs for quick disposal and then have them do just enough extra to draw attention.

PS: I too have never worn anything heavier than light armor with Jareko either, but part of that is all the hits to skills the heavier stuff lays on you as well.

Scarsgaard
03-28-2007, 11:05 AM
My cleric hates Rage... his AC isn't bad but -2 definitely opens up the door for your Rezzer/Healer to get hurt and if I die... you're dead :)

Jericohs
03-30-2007, 09:49 AM
GEEZUS...little boys can't play with their toyz or other boyZ!

apart from the few posts that actually have a shred of constructive advice for new players i would turf everyone's comments.

nothing was said apart from flaming the OP or the previous poster...I hate these stupid threads...lol and i'll get flamed for this I know but i can deffend myself.... So out of three pages of **** all i can see is that everyone at one point in time played with a race/class that was not playing its average typical role... sniff sniff ... all you have to do is /squelch or make a list of noobs not to play with.

As for threads talking about how specific builds are bad... that's a personal thing...everyone has bad experiences

I play a command cleric. When i join a group, i'll explain to them how i play. And if i'm going to swing away, i can't forget that i have healing responsibilities. And since i swing a sword as well i have to make sure my AC is up so as to not be a mana sponge etc. etc. COMMUNICATION usually works.

little aparte: command clerics use offensive spells (CC spells) to reduce damage taken by group. I think their the best clerics in the game and i've tried playing them all:

- heal bot clerics (dv's, wands, scrolls, and SP)
BORING!!!!
I play videogames to have fun not to be someone's ***** for 4 hrs. lol

- battle cleric (sword, sheild, high con, high str, high wis)
main tank, kill kill kill, then heal once everything is dead
PLAY A FIGHTER!!! cause that seems to **** everyone off, but then again if people can't be independant and survive one mob encounter then they deserve to die then reZed and healed lol

- command cleric (searing light, greater command, commetfall, flamestrike, blade barrier, holy smite, etc. HEAL from the rear while killing everything in sight)
um, i believe when DDO made this game they intentionally wanted people to play this type of cleric but it never caught on. I think it's because you have to be very quick, switch auto bars from heal to cast then back to heal, cast cast... its the most difficult cleric role to play i find. BUT THE MOST EFFECTIVE. You'll notice a good command cleric when they just own everything at once, very noticeable on the battle field!


And it is my personal issue since i'm a cleric and i had a bad experience...I HATE TWF High DPS fighters. I guess he just wasn't a good TWF (aka DPS fighter - a noob you might say - a disgrace to his race haha or class) Here is how it went down, the dps fighter was a mana sponge that just took all the sp out of both clerics, while two good tanks we're being neglected. I lose it and decide to teach him a lesson...(hehe sometimes that is what it takes to get through to people) I STOP HEALING HIM ENTIRELY. Until, he loses it and start complaining. First of all he has the gaul to say i'm a bad cleric and expects me just to sit there and say nothing... Of course not i chewed his head out and spit right back in his face...

- get a shield
- or get better AC
- quit using my SP for your HIT PTS
- wait till a fighter gets aggro (IMPORTANT)

and the first thing he says .... I HAVE THE BIGGEST KILL COUNT

- I say: so what...two fighters taking zero damage per 5 mobs but killing them one round later is better than you killing a mob quickly but reducing you HIT PTS by half per mob...

Anyways, i didn't say it that way: what i said would not really be accepted on this forum page and would probably get me banned but needless to say i got him good...so good that i think the rest of the group felt sorry for him a little. And they kicked me out of the group... oh well, it happens. I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

That's why i hate high DPS TWF fighters... because i'm a cleric first and foremost and i have to heal the bastard... secondly, i had a bad experience with one... AND THAT"S WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT _ PERSONAL EXPERIENCES AND PREFERENCES

there's a lack of constructiveness to this post and i'm here to make fun of it and you ... lol

I"LL END WITH THIS...

A LEADER LEADS... someone has to be a party leader, if you don't like the leader; say so and leave the group. But last time i checked, you do the quest the way the leader wants. Now, if you have a better method; a good leader should always want to accept new ideas and tactics. THAT"S what a good leader does. KNOWS when to shut up and KNOWS when to tighten the grasp of his "peons" aka teamates. If your not happy with that you make your own group and lead.

VonBek
04-05-2007, 08:42 PM
It should.

Actually rage clicky (or rage spell) could stack with almost everything in DDO. So I would suggest that you double check it again.(

My Paly has +3 Str gloves, and pulled the Rage ring from that harbor quest, the last of the Baudry 3 part series. His Str is 15 static, 18 w Gauntlets, 20 with the little 1/day rage clickie.

Maybe I'll hang onto it, to couple with smite.

Thanks, Samho.

Shadow_Xavier
04-10-2007, 07:11 PM
Rouges should go on women's faces. However Rogue's should be able to disarm traps. I suspect if you want them to listen to you, do not repeatedly misspell their name.

Absolutely! This is a huge pet-peeve of mine. I totally agree with a lot of the ideas of the OP, but it also makes me question his claims of guild leader/established player in many MMOs, when he hasn't learned by this time that the word is spelled R-O-G-U-E.

I can understand if someone is a younger player, perhaps 10, that can't quite spell a lot of words properly yet, but to have played in all those MMOs with the accomplishments claimed, I would think he would be old enough, and have enough experience gaming to spell rogue properly.

All in all, except for the irksome "rouge", he has some pretty valid points.


Shadow

Dwolf
04-11-2007, 12:13 PM
This whole thread is so misguided it's not even funny. While there is a small measure of good advice, it should really be titled "how to play the game inside the box and never think outside it".

The real challenge to being a good leader isn't to try to "fill the roles". A good leader is the one that takes what is given to him and makes it work.

When I start a party, I don't tell the wizard which spells they must have, i ask them what they do have. I can suggest they memorize certain spells, but if a wizard doesn't have haste in his book for some reason, that's not a reason to refuse to take him. What i need from him is an indication of the role he has chosen for that character. If he is a nuking wizard, group strategy needs to be adjusted for that. If he's crowd control or buff oriented, the group adjusts to that too.

With clerics, since they can pray for any spell on their list, its a little easier to ask that they cover one or two areas. Usually that's more reserved to deciding whether they'll be the ones carrying the energy resists if we determine we'll need them. If a cleric asks me for advice on what to take i'll give it, otherwise i'll assume they know their role and that they'll take a good selection of spells.

The advice about sticking together is good, but misses the point. The only real must in how a good group plays is COMMUNICATION.

This is a roleplaying game. Every character should be played as the player envisions it, not as the leader envisions it. The leader the should take those characters, treating each as if the character were an individual rather than a "toon" and forge a group dynamic particular to that group. But this requires that everyone be up front about who they are, and what they do well. Tell the leader what you bring to the table, and a good leader will figure out where to place your plate.

Bad leaders, or bad groups, are the ones that insist on putting square pegs into round holes because, darn gosh it, its just "HOW IT'S DONE".

Elvish_Ranger
04-12-2007, 03:50 AM
Ok first off we are all here for a good time so how one playes his toons is up to him dont force him to do somthing he dont want, when he notices that his tactic is not working he will change it... second tanks KILL COUNT MEANS JACK **** you dont get extra xp for highest kill or anything. so if you are looking to out kill everyone go ahead but dont brag about it. third same tanks if you are a killing machine make sure to bring extra pots or toss some money to a cleric for wands. in my expierience a killing machine who tosses money to clerics lives alot longer......next what is this avoid ranger game....i have yet to see one post were someone says hey its great having a ranger in the group.. on my server lhazaar i never have a problem getting a group as a ranger... we beat tanks on more than one level..... first we can heal ourselves, cast barkskin and resists on everyone even get some jump goin on there. we can remove disease nutralize poisen..... new mod ads some cc and summon allies.. we can range mobs causing status change efects or streight out kill them before they get into range.....we can drop our bow and pick up a sword and handle ourselves in most situations and with proper buffs against any mob... was just on risia in a 4 man group doing the blue dragon went down like this bard heals rogue and tank took down dragon me i cornered the giant busted out two greater giant bane weapons and spanked his unholy ass. i actually had to wait for the tank and rogue to catch up on the dragons life. anyone that has played with me has told me either one of two things first is you are the only ranger who i will ever group with, or good job bud your not the typical ranger.... so am i missing somthing on ranger forums that i dont play like them or somthing. on lhazaar there are many rangers and i would proudly have anyone of them in my group. Check out the queen raid everyone asks me am i queen ready, i have killed the ugly ***** more times than i can count... i get 0 xp for that raid and still do it often. we are not only good for that though dragon raid i have ran the bases more than tanks. titan raid i take down the tops of pillars fast then range the titan from up top if he tries to shake me off my balance holds me up. so come on we also have favored enemies so we kick their butt over and over again. im sick of seeing all these threads dissing on rangers or not giving them the credit they deserve if i was on mabar or some junk server like that. i would have quite the game upright. everyone saying the ranger is a useless class. how bout all the rangers boycott the groups for one week and see who is crying. ohh by the way alot of ranger spash rogue or somthign in their build for DD, pick lock, umd purposes. so ya there is even more reasons to use us huh.


well that i my two cents on this entire matter

Aranticus
04-12-2007, 06:39 AM
This whole thread is so misguided it's not even funny. While there is a small measure of good advice, it should really be titled "how to play the game inside the box and never think outside it".

The real challenge to being a good leader isn't to try to "fill the roles". A good leader is the one that takes what is given to him and makes it work.

When I start a party, I don't tell the wizard which spells they must have, i ask them what they do have. I can suggest they memorize certain spells, but if a wizard doesn't have haste in his book for some reason, that's not a reason to refuse to take him. What i need from him is an indication of the role he has chosen for that character. If he is a nuking wizard, group strategy needs to be adjusted for that. If he's crowd control or buff oriented, the group adjusts to that too.

With clerics, since they can pray for any spell on their list, its a little easier to ask that they cover one or two areas. Usually that's more reserved to deciding whether they'll be the ones carrying the energy resists if we determine we'll need them. If a cleric asks me for advice on what to take i'll give it, otherwise i'll assume they know their role and that they'll take a good selection of spells.

The advice about sticking together is good, but misses the point. The only real must in how a good group plays is COMMUNICATION.

This is a roleplaying game. Every character should be played as the player envisions it, not as the leader envisions it. The leader the should take those characters, treating each as if the character were an individual rather than a "toon" and forge a group dynamic particular to that group. But this requires that everyone be up front about who they are, and what they do well. Tell the leader what you bring to the table, and a good leader will figure out where to place your plate.

Bad leaders, or bad groups, are the ones that insist on putting square pegs into round holes because, darn gosh it, its just "HOW IT'S DONE".

adaptation goes both way, not only we adapt to that player, the player has to adapt to the rest of the party. how about i zerg and you adapt to my playstyle? :cool:

peavey
04-12-2007, 01:12 PM
i understand the time invested into a toon and seeing the development through the lvls but what about fun. i have found in my limited experience with mmo's that people can be condescending and not even know it. i have 3 capped toons that without PUGs would not be where they are now. even if the experience is bad learn from it if only to make yourself better at what you are trying to do.

one final thought...unless you play a role you really have no place to criticize the way others play them. i am guilty of this as i am sure most everyone else here is. which is why i have more than one type of toon to experience the different impact they can have on a party first hand.

just remember we play this to have fun, not get all mad when things dont go as planned.

RobbinB
04-12-2007, 02:39 PM
I play a command cleric. When i join a group, i'll explain to them how i play. And if i'm going to swing away, i can't forget that i have healing responsibilities. And since i swing a sword as well i have to make sure my AC is up so as to not be a mana sponge etc. etc. COMMUNICATION usually works.

And it is my personal issue since i'm a cleric and i had a bad experience...I HATE TWF High DPS fighters.

OK, I'm not a fan of high dps tanks either, especially the 2H fighters. But this probably stems predominantly from the fact that my background in RPG's is predominantly the 1 person variety hardcore style, so defense is of huge importance. But in DDO I think a lot of what I do simply doesnt get noticed. People don't notice that I (the evasion fighter with decent UMD) was the one that actually wand-healed the incapped cleric when he went down and we were almost at a party wipe, or that I supplied the 2 mnem pots to the wiz when he really needed them, or that I was blinded 3 times (you didnt hear about it cause I have the blindness pot hot-keyed and used it rather than screaming to the cleric), or that the cleric put almost no mana into keeping my defensive build at full hp while using half a bar on the other 2 tanks. And I dont get special accolades for being the only one in the part to not actually have died during the mission. But people did appear to notice that my kill count lagged 20 behind the barbarian before all was said and done.

IMO, the problem is the proper application of force. This is where the command clerics (which I personally love as well), PK wizards, and 2H fighters need to pay attention. Examples:

1. Command cleric - when the party is suddenly confronted by 6 gnolls, 3 of which are pyromancers, plz plz plz use your command spell. If we can get most of those guys on their backs you'll save a lot of mana you would need to heal later on. But why are you using command when we were confonted by a couple regular gnolls we were gonna whoop anyway?

2. PK wizard - ok it took you 3 PK's to finally get that elder fire elemental, but it woulda taken 10 niacs. And at the rate we were damaging him, we were gonna take a lot of fire damage by the time we killed him, so thank you. But why you PK'ed that earth elemental when all 3 of us tanks had him surrounded and he was already 2/3 dead in 5 seconds I'll never know. (OK, I can guess, have anything to do with kill count?) Maybe next time PK the elemental we haven't started pounding on already. And for many of these rooms a simple haste would be more than enough.

3. 2H barbarian - yes WHEN we get to Whisperdoom that greater vermin bane greataxe will definitely be our saviour, lord knows I can't seem to damage her. In the meantime, just pull out your sword and board and wait for me and the paly to initiate combat. Your not doing enough damage to pull aggro from the paly you say? Great, that's the idea, its not like these regular monsters are giving us any trouble, and he's the one with AC 48.

Indrn_Fretgoop
04-12-2007, 04:16 PM
A lot of people on Riedra have played with my WF barbarian/fighter intimisponge. he has a high DR and intimidates Cleave+ Cursespewing BS of pure good then taking the only damage in party wizzys and clerics love me aline and with 268 HP at lvl 10 he can charge a beholder like it's his job and not even go down to half health when rolling a 1 on disitegrate. He's an angry yelling robot. My guild and I did offering of blood with a fighter, a rogue, a bard/rogue, and a ranger no problem. And a 6 cleric invaders is excesivly easy :)

Giselle
04-13-2007, 02:54 PM
I would like to add a few items that will hopefully be helpful and not argumentative.

1) If no one asks at the beginning of a mission what your style of play is, volunteer the information. Everyone does something for the first time, and perhaps this is the party leader's first stab at starting a party. He/she may not realize that this knowledge can help to make the run go much more smoothly.

2) Get a headset. A microphone would be great, but for some it isn't a possibility. If for some reason you cannot/do not have sound, for the love of all that is holy, TYPE IT IN PARTY CHAT! We had someone on a Relic run that didn't have voice. Now, by level 11/12, one expects party members to have this and it was not noticed immediately that the little green indicator was not showing on his name. This person ran ahead and broke boxes in the sneak hallway, died like five times and aggro'd mobs that we were totally unprepared to deal with, all because he CHOSE not to have his voice on, as we learned later. As the cleric, I decided not to rez him after the fifth time he died. He decided to drop the F bomb and tell me what a horrible cleric I am and what an a****** I am. We simply told him that we decided not to waste more mana on him by rez'ing him and that he may as well call out and drop party. Was this a question of playing style? No, this was a question of team play.

3) Offer to give advice to a player doing a less than spectacular job playing a part that you know well. Of course, ask a player if he is new before giving a tip or constructive criticism. :) I have had several very grateful players when I've given tips on playing a cleric, bard or wizard (the only classes for which I feel qualified to give advice.) I have also had groups that were so SPASTIC that I finally said, "Sorry, gotta go." They begged me to stay (cleric again) and I told them I'd stay if they did what I told them when I told them to do it. High handed? Oh, yeah. Effective? Yes. They may not have taken anything out of it other than I can be incredibly bossy, but maybe they noticed that when we started working together as a team, things went a heck of a lot more smoothly.

To comment on an earlier post, and bearing in mind that I look at everything from the POV of a cleric, I agree whole heartedly that it is IMPERATIVE that all party members bring their own healing. I only look on it as my responsibility to keep my team mates alive DURING the fight. I believe it is their responsibility to get themselves back to full health after the fight. I've taught a few fighters a hard lesson about this by not healing them up after a few fights. The next time I played with them, they had healing pots.

I think everyone should have to play a cleric. Maybe they would understand the incredible concentration and EXPENSE that goes into playing that class well. And, for those of you who say, "Yes, but my <insert class here> also has this same issue," I play/have played a Bard, Wizard, Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Rogue and Ranger. I re-rolled many of the tank types into caster types when I got my 32 point builds as I simply enjoy the challenge of that role more than playing a tank. However, I am enjoying learning to effectively play my level 4 rogue and my level 4 ranger. :)

Everyone has his or her own playing style and taste as to what type of character to play and how to play it. It is, however, unsportsmanlike to refuse to alter your style of play one iota to meet the needs of the team.

Just my two copper pieces. :D

samagee
04-24-2007, 02:32 PM
Obviously a post geared toward the power gamer. Those who play for fun learn to adapt and explore.

JayDubya
06-24-2010, 01:37 PM
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc225/Kenori_Merrik/Necro.jpg

Given the recent rash of undead sightings on the forums, I thought I would do a little Hunting of the Undead. This is the oldest thread I can find, with a first post date of 1-1-2007

Anything older out there?