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View Full Version : Using doorways. Inexperienced tanks (that's you melee types) read this.



Viza
12-01-2006, 03:03 PM
Situation:
Low level quest (waterworks, bonebite etc)
PU group
I'm playing a drow sorc

Fighters open door with a 12 creature mob behind it (quest is on elite) then just run into the room allowing the agro to swarm out of the room at the squishies and/or flank the tank, getting more flank attacks. 4 out of 6 members of the party get killed after using up all the cleric's mana. The (now) barely breathing tanks proudly collect everyones stones then "save the day" by making it to a shrine oblivious to the fact they just nearly caused a party wipe by being morons, as opposed to doing something useful, like their job.

It doesn't just happen once, it happens throughout the quests this pu group does despite repeated pleadings to use common sense.

There is a really simple fundamental tactic that can save a lot of cleric mana and death and is part of what I like to call tanking 101.

In a dungeon with rooms and doors, you open the door, stand in the doorway and sheildblock (or just fight the mob there), while the casters kill the enemy casters and torch the mob as you swing at them. They get corked in the room and can't get out, bunching up against you, and only 1-3 can hit you at the same time, instead of all 12. Fights go extremely well when you do this since you take the brunt of the damage and the cleric is free to concentrate his healing efforts.

Throwers and casters can be taken out by rangers and casters, don't worry about them.

No need to open door and run into the room at them, they will come to you. Once the blob is down then run into the room and hack n' slash.

If a caster or cleric is being chased, they can't do their jobs, which is healing you and helping you kill stuff faster. You can't do your job because you are running around trying to save the caster, all the while taking damage that can't be healed because the cleric is getting pummeled.

Your job is to tank, you can't do that if the agro isn't somehow contained. Agro management is a skill that will help you throughout your DDO (indeed PnP) career. Stupid tanks make a party completely dysfunctional.

Just wanted to get that out... there I feel better now.

-Viz

DuckOfDeath
12-01-2006, 03:23 PM
Just wanted to get that out... there I feel better now.

-Viz

Do you feel better just because you told someone else how to play just so you can play the way you want to play? On the same note the fighter types could give you some tips called CC 101.

Instead of blasting away and getting aggro why dont you CC the mobs to make it easier for them to kill with fighters that can provide consistent DPS and are not worried about aggro? A CCed mob also does less damage than a mob attacking at a doorway. Instead of the tanks blocking so you can nuke why dont you CC so they can use their 2handers?

Bottom line is not very many people like to be told how to play their characters and especially not if you act like they are total newbs and your way of doing things is the best. You dont like the way they play then dont play with them but dont try to make them play in a way that just lets you play the way you want to.

Blocking a choke point can be a good strategy but it is not always the best strategy. If there are mob casters in the back you most likely want to get to them first. In such a case what are you going to do about the melee mobs the tanks run past? Well if you learned how to deal with that in the early low level quests without mob casters it may not be a problem for you in the later quests when the tanks go after the mob casters.

Viza
12-01-2006, 04:32 PM
Do you feel better just because you told someone else how to play just so you can play the way you want to play? On the same note the fighter types could give you some tips called CC 101.

Instead of blasting away and getting aggro why dont you CC the mobs to make it easier for them to kill with fighters that can provide consistent DPS and are not worried about aggro? A CCed mob also does less damage than a mob attacking at a doorway. Instead of the tanks blocking so you can nuke why dont you CC so they can use their 2handers?

Bottom line is not very many people like to be told how to play their characters and especially not if you act like they are total newbs and your way of doing things is the best. You dont like the way they play then dont play with them but dont try to make them play in a way that just lets you play the way you want to.

Blocking a choke point can be a good strategy but it is not always the best strategy. If there are mob casters in the back you most likely want to get to them first. In such a case what are you going to do about the melee mobs the tanks run past? Well if you learned how to deal with that in the early low level quests without mob casters it may not be a problem for you in the later quests when the tanks go after the mob casters.

FYI, the mobs were on me before I cast anything. It was on elite. They ran in to the rooms and the mobs ran right out the door. I was looking for a potion in my inventory, didn't even know they were opening the door til I heard it. I got swarmed and realized they'd run into the room. I wasn't just "blasting away". Kobolds scatter when attacked and agro everything in the room.

I'm not your typical agro pulling sorc idiot. I learned all about letting tanks pull agro about 4 years ago when I started playing SWG. Tanks pull agro, nukers kill it. MMORPG 101.

After the third time, I started making suggestions. I know how to play a damn caster LOL. I played one in PnP, beta and have been playing a wizard off and on since launch.

The right way to handle kobolds is to bottle them up. They never all attack the tank, even if you just stand there, they agro you. I know because that's what I did after they wouldn't listen and I still got hammered. Standing there, not casting shiite and still getting agro. They agro completely randomly. They get hit by a tank and still agro something else.

What's your brilliant tanking strategy for that situation? I suppose just running into a room and getting agro from 2 and swinging your THS mightily while the rest scatter and kill the casters works better than bottling them up? o.O Let's hear it then.

In this case, it is the only strategy. Every group that I've been with, that used it, plowed through those quests without any problems. I've only done them 30+ times at all difficulty levels on wizard, cleric, tank, bard, rogue, and barbarian. I think I know a little bit about what works against kobolds and how not to get agro'd if you are a squishy.

And on elite, CC isn't sticking from a level 2 caster (made level 3 later that night)... I cast hypnotize around 20x and it didn't stick once. Sticks every time on normal, but on elite, different story. All it did was bounce off like a bb off a tank.

Lastly, why on earth would you waste mana on CC when you have a doorway right there that costs no mana to use?

It's a waste of mana on that difficulty level and character level. There is only one option, and that's to bottle them up and not act like retards, then nuke them.

If you don't believe me, roll up a lvl2 sorc and run into bonebite on elite and see how well your CC spellcasting theories work. Take people that just randomly attack everything without a strategy with you. Let me know how that works out for you at 2nd level.

I have the spell penetration feat so if it were possible for a lvl 2 sorc to make cc spells stick in those quests on elite, they would have been sticking at least one out of 20x, no?

The enemy casters can be dealt with if the squishies and healer aren't dying.
If they are, people will die continually. An unmolested ranger and sorc with MM can smoke a kobold shamen in about 5 seconds ending the threat. In willy nilly hack'n slash mode, 1 member will be held, and at least 2-3 more cursed in 10 seconds of fleeing mayhem, since the ranger and sorc will be getting pwned in melee instead of killing the casters. (those stats taken from real life experience)

Sorry man, some people need to be told what to do because they don't "get it". It's not like I was barking orders at people, I made suggestions "You know if you ...." /ignored and you are entirely incorrect, wrong.

I started this thread in a sad attempt to educate people on a tactic that seems to be lost on some tanks. But maybe I'll just stand there and drain mana on CC spells on creatures that always save instead. That REALLY works well.

-Viz

MuadDib
12-01-2006, 06:01 PM
DuckofDeath's point is perfectly valid. Blocking a door is a great strategy, but it is far from the only strategy. The problem with your group was communication, not inept play from your teammates. If you were simply telling them what to do and they weren't listening it sounds like you were the one going on the different gameplan.

If that happens to you again there is an easy solution that involves less annoyance on your part. Pick up Hypnotism at the next shrine and when your group opens a door into a swarm of kobolds, throw a hypno on the central kobold. If you have a 2h barb in your group who is waking them all up rather than managing one or two at once, throw another hypno.

That might be less fun for you than nuking the mobs yourself but it will lead for a smoother run for the party. 9 times out of 10 when group members are getting hurt in a level 1-5 quest it is due to a problem with CC (either they didn't wait for it or you didn't cast it).

For all you know, if your groupmates were completely ignoring you it might have been because they were vets just trying to rush their XP along and found your input and your lack of CC annoying.

whysper
12-01-2006, 06:13 PM
No, you do not block in the doorway, but inside it, requiring enemies
to enter your room where ideally you have two fighters on either side and
one directly in front. This achieves two things: first, you have a 180-degree
arc coverage of anyone who enters your room for both melee and the mobile
casters behind them; secondly you reduce the LoS that enemy casters and
ranged have to target the frontline fighters.

DuckOfDeath
12-01-2006, 07:06 PM
FYI, the mobs were on me before I cast anything. It was on elite. They ran in to the rooms and the mobs ran right out the door. I was looking for a potion in my inventory, didn't even know they were opening the door til I heard it. I got swarmed and realized they'd run into the room. I wasn't just "blasting away". Kobolds scatter when attacked and agro everything in the room.

I am not a mind reader. You didnt post any of this info in your OP. All you did was whine about the tanks should stand by the door so you could nuke. Even if this was the case it is simply poor communication and not a problem with the tanks. Did you tell them you were not ready?


I'm not your typical agro pulling sorc idiot. I learned all about letting tanks pull agro about 4 years ago when I started playing SWG. Tanks pull agro, nukers kill it. MMORPG 101.

LOL I take it you are an exceptional agro pulling sorc idiot. I also played SWG and WOW and in MMORPG 101 you learn that the roles of players vary alot from game to game. What you know from SWG means didly. In DDO the tanks are the DPS and the casters provide as sort of tanking through CC. Your nuking is mostly going to end up getting you and your party killed and at the very least you will be out of SP before getting through very many mobs.


After the third time, I started making suggestions. I know how to play a damn caster LOL. I played one in PnP, beta and have been playing a wizard off and on since launch.

The right way to handle kobolds is to bottle them up. They never all attack the tank, even if you just stand there, they agro you. I know because that's what I did after they wouldn't listen and I still got hammered. Standing there, not casting shiite and still getting agro. They agro completely randomly. They get hit by a tank and still agro something else.

Funny you must be doing something wrong. I see alot of people who claim they know how to manage agro and yet claim the mobs must be programmed to go specifically at them. When I play my wizard with an AC 17 and as few HP as you can get I have no problem running past the melee mobs to get to the caster mobs to use my short range CC spells. Oh BTW the proper way to handle kobolds is one of the few times that I would suggest DD over CC.


What's your brilliant tanking strategy for that situation? I suppose just running into a room and getting agro from 2 and swinging your THS mightily while the rest scatter and kill the casters works better than bottling them up? o.O Let's hear it then.

My brilliant strategy and the strategy used by many is CC. As a proclaimed nuker you probably dont have any but taking some spells like sleep, hypnotize, and web go a long way to being able to kill these low level mobs without getting hit. And like I said the kobolds are weak and a couple burning hands will take them all down before you die even without a tank to block their way.


In this case, it is the only strategy. Every group that I've been with, that used it, plowed through those quests without any problems. I've only done them 30+ times at all difficulty levels on wizard, cleric, tank, bard, rogue, and barbarian. I think I know a little bit about what works against kobolds and how not to get agro'd if you are a squishy.

Again we come to the crux of the problem. You think your way is the only way and seem to want to get everyone to play your way.


And on elite, CC isn't sticking from a level 2 caster (made level 3 later that night)... I cast hypnotize around 20x and it didn't stick once. Sticks every time on normal, but on elite, different story. All it did was bounce off like a bb off a tank.

Lastly, why on earth would you waste mana on CC when you have a doorway right there that costs no mana to use?

It's a waste of mana on that difficulty level and character level. There is only one option, and that's to bottle them up and not act like retards, then nuke them.

If you don't believe me, roll up a lvl2 sorc and run into bonebite on elite and see how well your CC spellcasting theories work. Take people that just randomly attack everything without a strategy with you. Let me know how that works out for you at 2nd level.

I have the spell penetration feat so if it were possible for a lvl 2 sorc to make cc spells stick in those quests on elite, they would have been sticking at least one out of 20x, no?

The enemy casters can be dealt with if the squishies and healer aren't dying.
If they are, people will die continually. An unmolested ranger and sorc with MM can smoke a kobold shamen in about 5 seconds ending the threat. In willy nilly hack'n slash mode, 1 member will be held, and at least 2-3 more cursed in 10 seconds of fleeing mayhem, since the ranger and sorc will be getting pwned in melee instead of killing the casters. (those stats taken from real life experience)

Sorry man, some people need to be told what to do because they don't "get it". It's not like I was barking orders at people, I made suggestions "You know if you ...." /ignored and you are entirely incorrect, wrong.

I started this thread in a sad attempt to educate people on a tactic that seems to be lost on some tanks. But maybe I'll just stand there and drain mana on CC spells on creatures that always save instead. That REALLY works well.

-Viz

All this whining about how you are a level 2 sorc in a level 4 quest and nothing works but your nuking is just the sorriest thing I have ever heard. If your spells dont work then maybe you need to tackle something more your level instead of trying to get everyone else to play their toon in the only fashion that will allow your toon to play in a higher level quest. If you were the proper level you could cast a single web spell and everyone can kill all the mobs without a single ounce of healing from the cleric.

Now again I am not saying this is absolutely the worst strategy but it is in no way the only way to do things like you say and IMHO learning this way helps to some point in the early game but as you level you have to completely change your strategy to get to the casters. Personally I would rather the squishies learn early to take care of themselves and learn aggro management that does not include having people stand between them and the mobs so that the melees learn to get to the mob casters quickly instead of standing by the door. You dont see to much shield blocking at the door on higher levels because it is much more important to kill the casters blasting your shield wall to bits and your caster and ranger arent going to kill them fast enough.

MuadDib
12-02-2006, 11:01 AM
To add a couple of minor points.

I'm not your typical agro pulling sorc idiot. I learned all about letting tanks pull agro about 4 years ago when I started playing SWG. Tanks pull agro, nukers kill it. MMORPG 101.
I played SWG from beta to NGE fiasco and this game is really, really different. Arcanes can do great burst damage, but so can the melee. More importantly, the melee can't provide the same level of crowd control that an arcane can.


They agro completely randomly. They get hit by a tank and still agro something else.
It's actually worse than random. Most mobs will go out of their way to target arcanes first - which is pretty fair when you consider that we go out of our way to target their casters first. That's why learning aggro management is key to excelling as an arcane at high levels. CC is the main aggro management tool but if you are set on playing a nuking caster you should start investing heavily in your Diplomacy skill.


And on elite, CC isn't sticking from a level 2 caster (made level 3 later that night)... I cast hypnotize around 20x and it didn't stick once ... I have the spell penetration feat so if it were possible for a lvl 2 sorc to make cc spells stick in those quests on elite, they would have been sticking at least one out of 20x, no?
Perhaps part of the problem is that you don't really understand how casters work. Spell Penetration adds +2 DC to your checks against spell resistance, and I have never seen a kobold with spell resistance. With a 20 starting charisma and a potion of eagles your DC will be 10(base) + 7(cha) + 1(spell level) for a total of 18DC at level 1, or 19 DC if you picked up a SF: Enchant feat. If you claim that you are only sticking an 18DC hypno 5% of the time or less on a kobold, I really suggest you go try again.

Yshkabibble
12-02-2006, 11:11 AM
Viza,

I think the bottom line here is there are two lessons to be learned.

The first lesson is how and when to effectively use a doorway to your advantage. There are times when this works and times when it doesn't. Is the party blocking the door to protect their squishies or are you playing into the monster's hands by letting them block the door to protect their squishies? In the split second that the tanks have to make that decision, it is easy to make the wrong one (if there is a right or wrong one).

The second lesson to be learned is how and when to effectively communicate with your party as well as people on the forums. If your communication with your party was as arrogant as the title of your post the I don't find it at all surprising that folks didn't listen to you.

Riddikulus
12-02-2006, 11:44 AM
Yeah, the biggest issue here is communication. But in PUGs especially you get a lot of people who know the dungeon backwards and forwards and just rush without saying anything so you have to stay on your toes.

So in general as a caster I pretty much stay defensive and hit every door with a web from a wand before it's opened. Then if the tanks go rush in, there is some hope of mobs not coming out right away. Glitterdust and pattern will also work similarly... and the scrolls for those are cheap so you can conserve mana.

Rhaynger
12-02-2006, 12:06 PM
I've played a Sorcerer, and I've tried to do CC. CC isn't as fun as the DPS, but it's a lot more welcoming. As you say, it's the tanks fault that you guys almost wiped? Just think, as a caster you can get Hypnotism at level 1. What does that do? AoE CC? At level 1? You're trying to throw all of the blame off on the tanks, but the casters have more control of the party with their CC than the tank does. Very rarely does a tank get his Intimidation up for a party, so they can't get aggro. I'm not trying to make you mad or anything, but try to use CC no matter the level of quest. It will get hit, unless you're extremely unlucky with a bad build.

Good luck.

(No hard feelings.)

Zenix_Leviticus
12-07-2006, 03:50 PM
Whysper has the best idea yet (imo).

open door, throw down web or hypmo, back up from the door, hit 1 monster
to allow him to break hypmo and run to you, beat him down like he owes you
money. Rinse and repeat.

This little kobold was hit with an axe.
This little kobold was backstabbed by a dagger.
This little kobold wast hit with MM.
This little kobold was killed by an arrow.
This little kobold saw the whole thing and couldn't move to help.

Xenaphon
12-08-2006, 03:54 PM
DDO needs communication and team work. Sometimes the correct thing to do is block the door way and let a sorc burn kobolds. Other times its better for melee to get around enemy melee and target the enemy casters while party casters use CC on the melee. Party has to decide how they will handle the situation and do it. Its a really simple game, (unless you're doing E3 on elite or Caravan on Elite). Plan, communicate and excute. Oh... also have fun. Sometimes overcoming something very difficult is more fun than running something technical where no one can improvise.

Xionanx
12-09-2006, 11:54 AM
I have the spell penetration feat so if it were possible for a lvl 2 sorc to make cc spells stick in those quests on elite, they would have been sticking at least one out of 20x, no?

Not to be knocking you personally, but I see this misconception all to often just to let it slide. Your bottling up strategy is sound, however you DO need to learn a little more about your class mechanics.

Spell Penetration increases your check to beat a creatures SPELL RESISTANCE. It does not effect the SAVING THROW required to negate the spell effects.

So, if a spell has a "Will save to negate", Spell Penetration does not effect that at all. However, if the creature hase Spell Resistance and SR applies to the spell you are casting, then Spell Penetration does apply.

So, what ARE your saves? The saves needed to resist your spells, be it will, fort, or reflex are:

10 + level of spell + caster stat bonus

So, a level one Wizard Spell cast by a 12th level Wizard with a 20 INT will only have a save DC of 16.

Beating SR works like so:

D20 + Caster level + Spell Penetration (items or feats)

So, a level one Wizard Spell cast by a 12th level Wizard with a 20 INT will get D20 + 12 + Spell Penetration, for a minimum of 13 and a max 32 (not counting feats and items). (take note you Drow and know that your base SR is worthless at high levels)

So, more then likely those kobolds were making thier DC (11 + Cha Mod) saves easily, making your hypnotism attempts futile.

Anyway, sorry to get off topic, but it always bugs me when people say they have Spell Penetration and cant figure out why things are resisting thier spells.

lemur
12-09-2006, 12:18 PM
Ran Tangleroot with a fantastic cleric (very knowledegable) the other night. On most of the doorways she cast a glyph of warding then had the wiz web the door. We used ranged weapons and spells to pull the mobs through the doors and let them wound themselves on the glyph while our summoned monsters and tanks beat up on the mobs that stayed inside the room. Worked beautifully. Only had a couple deaths throughout the whole run.

Riddikulus
12-09-2006, 02:47 PM
DDO needs communication and team work. Sometimes the correct thing to do is block the door way and let a sorc burn kobolds. Other times its better for melee to get around enemy melee and target the enemy casters while party casters use CC on the melee. Party has to decide how they will handle the situation and do it. Its a really simple game, (unless you're doing E3 on elite or Caravan on Elite). Plan, communicate and excute. Oh... also have fun. Sometimes overcoming something very difficult is more fun than running something technical where no one can improvise.
Actually when soloing I have found the best strategy is to open the door and then stand to one side of the entrance behind the wall.

The melee mobs come to the door and engage me, and they block their friends and casters behind the door for me.

Then I can pick them off one or two at a time in the doorway, completely safe from the casters until their turn comes up at the door.

This should work equally well with a party, and will work well in most all situations involving a doorway.

dr4g0n3
12-09-2006, 03:04 PM
4 words
"Dont group with PUG's"

Mr._Dna
12-11-2006, 03:22 AM
I can see what the OP is saying. But since my main is a tank, I can also say...the worst thing that can happen to you (and your party) is to die. Kobold shamans on elite cast lightning bolt. Without any resistance (tough to get at level 2-4), it will tear you up. Now, if you told your tanks the plan and said you were gonna take out the casters yourself quickly and they didn't at least give you a chance, then that is lame. But as a default strategy, tanks rushing the spellcasters first and then mopping up the trash really can't be beat in most situations.

CrusherMcGee
12-11-2006, 03:32 PM
While I generally agree with the OP's point (in the face of a melee-heavy enemy that's too strong to just easily crush, blocking the door is a good way to go), I think Dna is actually hitting on the main point here.

On elite, Kobold Shamans cast Lightning Bolt, a spell which hits everything in a straight line and can do 30+ damage/target if not saved against. If you're facing a group of kobolds, and there's even a single shaman in there, blocking the door is going to get you wiped very quickly. That shaman is probably capable of more damage output than the other 8 or whatever kobolds in the room put together. The plan on opening the door should be for everyone to jump on the shaman immediately, then, once its dead, spread out and handle the rest as best as you can. In that plan, the Sorc's job should be to drop an initial hypnotize on the rest of kobolds, hoping that a couple roll 1s, and then pound the shaman with MMs until it goes down. After that, the Sorc probably runs to try and distract a couple kobolds so the tanks have fewer to worry about at a time, or perhaps tries another Hypnotize.

Honestly, if the rest of the party was level 2-3 along with the OP, and you actually made it all the way through Waterworks on elite, then you should be pretty proud because that's no minor feat.

Elurian
12-13-2006, 02:57 PM
No, you do not block in the doorway, but inside it, requiring enemies
to enter your room where ideally you have two fighters on either side and
one directly in front. This achieves two things: first, you have a 180-degree
arc coverage of anyone who enters your room for both melee and the mobile
casters behind them; secondly you reduce the LoS that enemy casters and
ranged have to target the frontline fighters.

Whyspyr's right. There are only a couple of exceptions to this rule. As an example, mephit hordes can slip through small gaps pretty quickly, so in some instances, you're better getting two melee to stand in the doorway, expertise/shield-block, and drop cloudkills, firewalls (for non-fire mephits), acid fogs and fog clouds on top of the tanks.

There are also times to blitz in and wipe out casters as quickly as possible. If someone in my group insists that I stand in a doorway while 3 beholders are nuking me or the cleric, I'll probably not invite that fellow again.

By the same token, if you've got a meaty party and the healer's not low on SPs, there's no reason *not* to barrel through a dungeon you've done thirty times. Situations vary; good groups adapt.

A tank's priorities should always be:

1) Keep the cleric alive
2) Stay on his feet so he can KEEP keeping the cleric alive
3) Keep other party members alive
4) Reduce damage taken by himself and other party members, either by intimidating, managing agro through feat use (stun, trip, WW, cleave) or by just flat killing bad guys.
5) Kill bad guys.

Bloodmech
12-13-2006, 08:16 PM
TANKS ARE NOT FODDER!!! you relize they are importent to the party just like casters,and they only have so many hp (per haps a few more than casters) but they die too. sO WHY DO YOU EXPECT THEM TO SYAND IN ONE PLACE WHILE THEY GET SHOT UP BY CASTERS!?!

Ghaldar
12-14-2006, 01:52 PM
This whole thread is a classic example of the biggest problem with DDO: The "cookie cutter effect" AKA the PUG attitude that there is ONE way to do something. You do not meet the criteria or your play style is not to the PUG universal standard....then FU!....(note: of course there are some standards of play that are universaly held as proper manners etc. and I am not refering to those)

This attitude is what makes PUGS no fun...
drum roll........

DDO is based off PnP.
What is D&D especially in the lastest 3.5 and this setting about?

Options. I forget which book I was reading....but it had articles from the guys who took D&D over to WoC and talked about the OGL etc. Had a forward by vin diseasl but what ever. The designers are quoted in the book about this point. D&D gives players freedom to use vast options to accomplish the task. That is what makes the game fun is that there are alot of differnt ways to accomplish the same task. Different builds, different group make ups etc. DDO has tried to capture the spirit of that and it saddens me when players just do not realize that they need/have to/should adapt to the changing of groups etc.

The point I am trying to make is that this game is built around the premise that there is no one way to do things. "No right" nor is there a "wrong". It is all shades of grey and opinion. Whilest it is fun to argue/discuss the best way to skin a Kobold at the pub, the simple fact that there is no one way is an absolute truth. So why fight about it? Why rip on people about it? The sooner folks buy into this reality the better. The sooner this happens the better. The sooner the negative comments and attitudes prevelant on this forum and in the PUG universe is changed the better. Course that is but a dream....so cheers and pass the skinned Kobald...

Lune
12-20-2006, 11:34 AM
On elite, Kobold Shamans cast Lightning Bolt, a spell which hits everything in a straight line and can do 30+ damage/target if not saved against. If you're facing a group of kobolds, and there's even a single shaman in there, blocking the door is going to get you wiped very quickly.

Yup. I think, again, better communication within the group could have made this clearer. Perhaps the tanks felt zerging the casters was the best chance to avoid everyone getting electrifried, but they probably should have mentioned it.

Bierdieb
12-20-2006, 11:48 AM
Tanks in SWG?

maloriq
12-20-2006, 12:32 PM
Yeah, the OP has it wrong.

On elite quests, you zerg the casters. Your casters may die. CC does little, because they always save (esp. kobolds vs. web and niacs). All you got is hypnotism and/or hypnotic pattern. These are harder for melees to optimally use. Nuking does little, because their HPs are beefed up.

Standing in doorway = party wipe. Zerging casters = caster wipe.
Hence, it is not much fun to do quests on elite as a caster. All you are is a buff monkey (which at <4th level, you can't even do that).

joeuhuh
12-24-2006, 10:38 PM
bonebite elite kobold shamen cast blind and hold, light bolt-- ur shield wall doesnt do well if it stood there til it was blind held and dead

Valiena
12-25-2006, 01:49 AM
Yeah, the OP has it wrong.

On elite quests, you zerg the casters. Your casters may die. CC does little, because they always save (esp. kobolds vs. web and niacs). All you got is hypnotism and/or hypnotic pattern. These are harder for melees to optimally use. Nuking does little, because their HPs are beefed up.

Standing in doorway = party wipe. Zerging casters = caster wipe.
Hence, it is not much fun to do quests on elite as a caster. All you are is a buff monkey (which at <4th level, you can't even do that).

*puts finger on nose*

My 7th Caster (2nd incarnation) took Heighten and Extend as her bonus metamagic feats. You will get a lot more damage done to mobs, and a lot less done to you if a haste is cast instead of fireball. A heightened hypnotize works up until the end game. There are times to burst damage, to be sure, but WW is not one of them.

ObsidianCrow
12-26-2006, 07:21 AM
It still amazes me on these forums to see people jump in head first before actually thinking about what they are psoting in reply to others posts. First thing most people do is try to poke holes in the OP's post. OP was pointing out a FACT that many melee types do not use tactics. Did I just say "all"? No. But your run of the mill melee type is a sp sponge. OP was not saying it was the only strategy. He was not saying that he does not use CC. He wasn't even saying that shield walls work all the time.
I personally think that the people that are getting their hackles up are the ones that probably have caused casters to die due to over zealous charging into battle. This game was never meant to be a one man show. It has been and will always be a game that encourages team work. Op is not trying to dictate how you melee masters should play. He is asking that you have a little consideration and develope some maturity to work with others.
For me personally I am always impressed when the melee types actually use tactics, like doorways, ridges and terrain to mitigate the damage they otherwise might take. It is actualy not a common thing to see pug's allowing ranged types to ply their trade without having Dilbert Dumbum racing forward so he can get the highest kill count. I encourage melee types to use their heads for something other than a helmet stand and work with the caster to help conserve sp. If a caster doesn't NEED to cc that is even better. Saved sp's mean that in case the troll dung hits the blade barrier there will actually be someone who can get control of the situation by use of well placed cc spells or empowered/maximized spells.

MAIN point gang. Quite being so obnoxious. Offer up some suggestion in a positive manner and listen to what your team mates have to say, even if it is a pug group.

Therigar
12-26-2006, 07:59 AM
I am far from an expert on this game. Therigar, my main character, is a level 11 fighter and there is plenty I have done wrong with him in build and in play.

One of the things I have had to do, because I play in off-peak hours, is depend almost always on PUGs. I have learned to adapt.

I admit that my favorite trap-finding technique is to rush forward until the trap is sprung and hope I live through it. Then I scream for healing, sucking up all the cleric's mana (or draining his CSW wand)! :p

My principle alt is Yucheng. He is a rogue with 2 levels of ranger tossed in. I get to stand back and watch other tanks do the Therigar thing while I scream, "Trap, trap, trap!" ;)

So, I'm among the first to admit that we fighter types are not always smart about things.

OTOH, I've found that it is often better -- especially if you cannot pull small groups to you -- to charge headlong into a melee and to fight through to the other side IF there are enemy casters who can target your group. It seems that the AI never mistargets and when the high-level spells go off they are a real pain in the.... Well, you get the idea.

From a fighter's POV the most useful friendly casters deal in crowd control and buffs. There are only a few quests up through level 8 or so that really need a caster to do more than that. But, I'll be the first to admit that when they are needed the offensive power of casters is really appreciated.

Bottom line is this -- in every group there are roles to play. I do better when I remember that there is a rogue in the party and I don't try to find traps by charging forward. I do better when I remember that charging the mob isn't always as good as pulling it to you. I do better when the casters keep me barkskinned and good hoped and -- well you get the idea here too. And, I do better when I remember that some creatures need to be PK'd because they are just too tough for me to take on. :cool:

So, when in PUGs the most important thing is to work together and take it just a little slower so that everyone can remember that things go easier if you cooperate and plan ahead.

See you in game,

Therigar