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cforce
07-20-2006, 12:38 PM
**********************NOTE************************ *******
** Folks, thanks once again for all the valuable information that has been
** contributed to this guide. As of 4/15/08, I'm going into retirement!
** Impaqt has been kind enough to take over the guide, and you can
** find the latest version *here* (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173623).
** Happy hunting!
**
** -cforce
**
** Update: I'm back! Alas, my rogue is still retired, so my ownership of this
** guide is staying retired with her!
************************************************** *****


Introduction
This guide is a consolidation of answers to some frequently asked questions about the 'big 4' rogue skills (Disable/Open/Search/Spot), including:
- How can I boost my skills?
- How high do Trap/Secret Door/Lock DC's go?
...and other assorted questions that frequently come up in the rogue forum. What I *won't* try to do here is exhaustively document the DC of every trap, door, and lock at different difficulty levels; that's simply too hard to keep up-to-date when those values occasionally change!
I try to keep most of what is presented here as 'just the facts', but will include a few editorial comments, which I will call out to distinguish from the factual data. Editorial comments will be in italics.

Ranks
I won't get into build recommendations too much here, but I will give this one -- if you're a pure rogue, keep max ranks in Disable Device, Open Locks, Search, and Spot (level+3 ranks). If you're a multiclass, you may be doing some optimization and let a few skills lag behind, but I'd recommend trying to keep close to maxed as a multi-class, too. When people let one of these four skills fall behind, it is typically Spot that is the first to go -- with repeated runs through quests, rote memorization of trap locations can sometimes (but not always!) be substituted for a high Spot score.

Current max ranks for lvl 14 character: 17.

Items
Note: Only the highest item bonus of a particular type will apply amongst items you have equipped.
Randomly generated items give +1/3/5/7/10/11/13/15 to any skill. Some named items also give a small "Luck" bonus, which will stack with an item bonus.
See this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=69886) for a detailed inventory of known static/unique items in the game, and where they can be found.

It's reasonable to assume that you can find/buy a +13 item for nearly any skill on your way to level 14, with sufficient time spent browsing the auction house. So, for those following along at home, we've got a base of 30 points -- 17 ranks + 13 item bonus -- that will be relatively achievable by nearly any rogue build. Even many of the multiclasses with only a few levels of rogue can usually find a way to get in this neighborhood.

Tools
I advocate working on your Free Agents favor early, as the purchasable tools give you a *significant* guaranteed boost to Disable Device and Open Lock.

Rusty Theives' Tools: no bonus
Theives' Tools: +1 Open and Disable**
Masterwork Thieves' Tools: +2 Open and Disable**
+1 Thieves' Tools: +3 Open and Disable***
+2 Thieves' Tools: +4 Open and Disable***
+3 Thieves' Tools: +5 Open and Disable****
+4 Thieves' Tools: +6 Open and Disable****
+5 Thieves' Tools: +7 Open and Disable

** - purchasable from a vendor
*** - purchasable from Free Agents rep at first rank
**** - purchasable from Free Agents rep at second rank

So long as you make sure to hit Free Agents quests on your way to 14, you're now tracking to a 'guaranteed' total of +36 for Disable and Open rolls, and 30 for Search and Spot, before making any significant build decisions. Add in an unlimited supply of Heroism potions (easy enough to afford by level 14), and you're working with a base of 38/30 before making build decisions.

Tradeoffs
Here's where things start getting interesting, with different builds going in different directions. Simply having max ranks, upgrading your equipment when you can, and getting Free Agent Favor/Heroism potions will enable you to be sucessful with 90% of the game's content on Normal. To expect to have success on Elite, some additional investment will need to be made in the form of feats, enhancements, good ability scores, and buffs from other players.

Feats
All feats stack.
Nimble Fingers - +2 Open, +2 Disable
Alertness - +2 Spot (and Listen)
Skill Focus: "*" - +3 to * (Disable/Open/Search/Spot)

Enhancements
Class Enhancements stack with Race enhancements, but not with other Class enhancements. In fact, you generally can't take similar enhancements from two different classes - for example, the Rogue Skill Seach enhancement, when taken, will prevent you from selecting the Ranger Skill Search enhancement.

Rogue/Skill [Disable/Open/Search/Spot] I/II/III/IV - +1/2/3/4 to Disable, Open, Search, or Spot
Rogue/Skill Boost I/II/III/IV - +2/3/4/5 to all skills (but unlikely to be used for Spot), 20 seconds, 5/rest
Rogue/Way of the Mechanic - +2 to Disable/Open/Search/Spot (and Repair)

Ranger/Skill [Search/Spot] I/II/III/IV - +1/2/3/4 to Spot or Search
Ranger/Skill Boost I/II/III/IV - +2/3/4/5 to all skills (but unlikely to be used for Spot), 20 seconds, 5/rest

Drow/Skill [Search/Spot] I/II/III/IV - +1/2/3/4 to Search and/or Spot
Dwarf/Skill Search I/II/III/IV - +1/2/3/4 to Search
Elf/Skill [Search/Spot] I/II/III/IV - +1/2/3/4 to Search and/or Spot
Human/Human Versatility I/II/III/IV - +2/3/4/5 to all skills (but unlikely to be used for Spot), 20 seconds, 5/rest

Attributes
Int modifier: +modifier to Disable, Search
Dex modifier: +modifier to Open
Wis modifier: +modifier to Spot

Innate Racial Bonuses
Drow: +2 Search and Spot
Elf: +2 Search and Spot
Dwarf: +2 Search

Buffs
(In most cases these will come from outside sources.)
Competence bonus:
Bard/Inspire Competence: +2 all skills (never self-applicable)
Morale bonuses (do not stack with each other):
Heroism/Good Hope: +2 all skills (note that Heroism is 'assumed' above form a potion as a starting base)
Greater Heroism: +4 all skills

High Water Marks
How high do DC's go? This frequently changes, and all the numbers here should be taken as "what the community currently thinks they are", and not absolute gospel. While I keep track of new observations that folks post on the forums (as well as my own experiences), there's no guarantee that some of these haven't been changed, nor that people haven't occasionally made mistakes while gathering data. But, to my knowledge, it represents the best data the community has on the different values.

*Cabal Trap*
Editorial: This trap guards a single chest, and has DCs on Elite that are silly-high enough that your party won't expect you to be able to disarm it -- all they lose is a chest, and the DCs are simply too high for all but the most trap-optimized builds to achieve.
Disable Device: 75-76 DC.
Search: <= 56 DC Has been found after recent update with as low as a 56 Search, but may be yet lower.

*Everything Else*
Disable Device: somewhere greater than a 57 modifier for 0% chance of blowing traps. Foundation of Discord trap with DC at least 62, possibly higher.
Open Locks: +39-48 modifier. Locked door in Fleshmaker's Lab, has been failed on a total 58, and succeeded on a total 68.
Search: <44? (traps)/ 45-48 (secret doors) VoN 4 secret door has been reported as 45-48 DC on Elite. Second highest trap (after Cabal) in Gianthold has not been discussed veyr much, but SableShadow has been steadily pushing the envelope and hasn't run into trouble with a Search of 44.
Spot: >>39 39 Was not enough to spot traps in Rainbow in the Dark on Hard.

* - I use 'modifier' rather than 'skill' on Open and Disable because the Tools contribution will not be reflected on your character sheet when you look at your skill tab, but will only be added into the modifier at the time of the die roll. Note that also due to the die rolls, I've cited modifiers below the DC's -- in the case of open locks, you can reroll until you get a 20. In the case of disable device, you can reroll until you get (DC - 5) or lower, at which point the trap blows, so a modifier 5 under the DC will always get you the trap eventually. Slightly off-topic, but important to know: you will use whichever tools are "first" - ie, top left corner, first inventory tab is your 'first inventory slot'.

Editorial: Must you meet all of these DC's with your build? No. These numbers are listed more as a reference to know when to quit raising a score!

Can you decide to try and build with getting 100% success on all these DCs? It's certainly possible with some builds, but requires a heavy feat and enhancement commitment. Like every build decision, it's a trade-off. What I'd suggest is to look for which ways you can most efficiently raise your scores with enhancements. The most action-point-efficient ways are with Rogue Skills Boost and Way of the Mechanic. (Although Way of the Mechanic comes with a fair amount of prereqs -- you may be taking most of them already!) Early levels of skill-specific enhancements are cheap, but by the time you get to level IV, getting another +1 to all 4 scores requires 16 AP, a *huge* cost! As with any build, decide what your goals are, and what tradeoffs you want to make to achieve those goals.

A common refrain on the Rogue forums is, "you should build your rogue with at least 14 INT," but I disagree with conventional wisdom on this point. I'd certainly recommend building your rogue to have good skills relative to the "Everything Else" DCs listed above. Higher INT is *one* way to do that, but not the only way! For example, I can imagine a hypothetical Dwarven Rogue who start with (gasp) INT 8! He takes 17 ranks of the 'big 4', Skill Focus: Search, Skill Focus: Disable, Nimble Fingers, Rogue Skill Search IV, Rogue Skill Disable IV, Rogue Skill Boost IV, Way of the Mechanic, and Dwarven Skill Search IV. For search, starting with the 30 'assumed' from above, he's got an additional +17 (counting the boost, and the -1 INT penalty) for 47 total. For disable, he's got the 38 'assumed' from above, and an additional +15 (again, counting the boost and the -1 INT penalty), for +53 total. Only a Greater Heroism and Rabbit Gloves away from safely handling all content except the Cabal Trap, with an INT of 8? Now, would I want to play a build like this? Nope. Point is, don't simply start with a high INT because folks say you should; start with the combination of INT, feats, and enhancements you need to be comfortable with your skills.

Hopefully this information has been helpful. If you see anything missing or incorrect, either post to this thread or send me a PM, and I'll take a look and make additions and corrections. Happy tinkering!

tr0tsky
07-20-2006, 12:40 PM
Very Handy.

I think there's a secret door in Hiding In Plain Sight that required closer to a 40 search on Elite, but I'll have to go back and check. I'll post here next time I do it.

You can also get +3 thieves' tools from the Free Agents guy, but why would you, when you can get +4 at the same rank? :P

cforce
07-20-2006, 12:46 PM
Very Handy.

Thanks. I'm hoping we can replace some of the repetetive question answering in the forum w/link pasting :).



You can also get +3 thieves' tools from the Free Agents guy, but why would you, when you can get +4 at the same rank? :P

So noted.

tr0tsky
07-20-2006, 12:48 PM
Thanks. I'm hoping we can replace some of the repetetive question answering in the forum w/link pasting :).

One other comment. Counting "Docent of the Tomb" in static rewards is kinda silly, considering only WF can use it :)

AFAIK, there's no *real* +search static rewards.

Crarites
07-20-2006, 01:05 PM
If you are listing +10 disable items add +11 with race restiction items as well.

Raiken
07-20-2006, 01:52 PM
probably one of the most informative threads ive ever seen, its nice to have only one place to look for reviewing my skills and viability.

cforce
07-20-2006, 02:08 PM
Updated.

tr0tsky
07-20-2006, 02:53 PM
Updated.

Woo, stickied :)

stealth
07-23-2006, 01:16 AM
WhAT?!?! DC 61!!!!!! has Turbine gone mad?!

cforce
07-23-2006, 08:20 AM
It's actually not *that* outlandish, if you start by assuming most Rogues have a high starting Dex.

Even with very conservative Dex-boost assumptions: Human build, starting with only 16, taking only one Dex enhancement (Rogue Dex III) and the bracers from Tangleroot (+3), we're at 22, for a +6 bonus.

13 ranks
+7 Skill Perception
+10 RAB
+6 Dex Bonus
+7 OL item (static reward)
+1 Rabbit Gloves (static reward)
+6 (+4 Tools, now purchasable w/Favor)
+20 Die roll
-----------
70 DC unlockable!

If you want to push it to the limit, you could assume a Dex-maxed Halfling/Elf build, and a +10 Item found, which gets it up to 77 DC attainable -- 79 if you assume a +2 tome and a +5 Dex item!

cforce
07-24-2006, 08:50 AM
Sigh -- editted to reflect tr0tsky's discovery of a trap in Hiding in Plain Sight on Elite with DC between 52-55.

tr0tsky
07-24-2006, 10:24 AM
If you want to push it to the limit, you could assume a Dex-maxed Halfling/Elf build, and a +10 Item found, which gets it up to 77 DC attainable -- 79 if you assume a +2 tome and a +5 Dex item!

I had a +60 to my open lock roll when I was in TF yesterday :)

Juika
07-24-2006, 11:46 AM
How does one determine the DC of a trap/door etc?

I never know when I should pop my RAB before even making an attempt.

tr0tsky
07-24-2006, 12:06 PM
How does one determine the DC of a trap/door etc?

I never know when I should pop my RAB before even making an attempt.

um...well, you can get a very limited list at: DDOWiki Trap/Lock project (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/DDO_information_project/Traps_and_locks)

Feel free to update with any info you get :)

Sani_Medicor
07-24-2006, 12:15 PM
Disable Device: +50 modifier*
Hiding in Plain Sight elite traps have DC of 52-55, may blow on a modified roll of 50 (ie, roll 1, add +49) if DC is 55

I guess I'll be dropping rogue's dexterity for rogue's action boost. The good news is my ranger can use my +3 dex ring now. The bad news is I need a +2 or +4 dex item and my chance to hit will drop significantly. :(

Khallaya
07-24-2006, 02:07 PM
Guess we'll see more pure rogues dropping a feat into SF: DD now. With NF and SF: DD (and base 14 int + foxes clickable/wand/+4 int item) you can hit 50 dd without boost.

Sadly since my ingenuity is only +6 i'm one point short =(

Sani_Medicor
07-24-2006, 05:37 PM
Guess we'll see more pure rogues dropping a feat into SF: DD now. With NF and SF: DD (and base 14 int + foxes clickable/wand/+4 int item) you can hit 50 dd without boost.

Sadly since my ingenuity is only +6 i'm one point short =(
I started with 12 int and I'm using a +7 dd item and no int item, so I'm stuck with going back to boost.

Khallaya
07-25-2006, 09:13 AM
You can get puzzle cap from STK =). You can also buy foxes cunning wands/potions/scrolls. Personally I never dropped boost, I like it to much for haggle, UMD, Jump, and blackguards.

Sani_Medicor
07-25-2006, 12:05 PM
You can get puzzle cap from STK =). You can also buy foxes cunning wands/potions/scrolls. Personally I never dropped boost, I like it to much for haggle, UMD, Jump, and blackguards.
I'll do the foxes cunning...no way to the ugly hat. I have a +2 int ring...I just have other rings I normally prefer to wear. :)

Khallaya
07-25-2006, 01:10 PM
Yeah, the hat is ugly, I swap it with my new lampshade and a bandit mask when I need to max out my DD/search. with the future addition of /showhelmet on|off i'll probably wear it more =).

I swap ALOT of gear, I have a clickable collection and 6 hotkey bars full of gear/wands/potions. If you don't swap now, it won't take long before you get use to it and find yourself shopping for as many clickables as you can get your hands on.

Sani_Medicor
07-25-2006, 02:29 PM
I'm a clickable junkie!!! I buy every good clickable I see. I have expeditious retreat, haste, rage, divine favor, divine power, protection from fire, neutralize poison, lesser restoration, etc. I try not to swap out any of my rogue skill slots though...just to avoid mistakes.

p.s. I traded chaosgarde bracers for my underwater action bandit mask...I will never swap it out with anything!!! lol

Dav
07-25-2006, 02:32 PM
What's the general consensus about the "Listen" skill? I've seen builds that max it, also builds that ignore it. It's barely even mentioned here.

Has it gone the way of "Swim" ( because of Underwater Action Item" ), that is not necessary at all?

tr0tsky
07-25-2006, 02:42 PM
p.s. I traded chaosgarde bracers for my underwater action bandit mask...I will never swap it out with anything!!! lol

omg, seriously? I love my Chaosgarde bracers :)


What's the general consensus about the "Listen" skill? I've seen builds that max it, also builds that ignore it. It's barely even mentioned here.

Has it gone the way of "Swim" ( because of Underwater Action Item" ), that is not necessary at all?

It's basically useless. Who knows though, it might get rebalanced into something useful in the future. Currently, though, it has no real use.

Sani_Medicor
07-25-2006, 02:49 PM
omg, seriously? I love my Chaosgarde bracers :)
I got the chaosgarde bracers and reavers ring on my first trip into xorian cipher. I had recently made a post saying I wanted to find an underwater action bandit mask, if they even existed. A paladin in my party was wearing an underwater action bandit mask and really wanted the bracers. It worked out well for both of us. I don't really mind the loss for my rogue, but now that I have a pally I could really use another pair.
http://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36080

I took listen for my first 5 levels and then swapped to jump. I really like the little messages I get from listen. It makes the game feel more like the pnp version.

namorg
07-26-2006, 03:25 PM
Very useful thread. Good work.:)

Thanatos
08-03-2006, 01:42 AM
Ok, It seems that the best I can manage is this...

+13 (Ranks)
+ 2 (14 Int)
+ 2 (Fox's Cunning)
+ 7 (Jeweler's Loupe)
+ 6 (Tools)
+ 7 (Skill Ingenuity)
+ 4 (Human Versatility)
+ 2 (Heroism)
+ 3 (Skill Focus: Disable Device)
+ 2 (Nimble Fingers)

=48

Or 45 if a drow, dropping HV but gaining +2 Int.

'Cause I am surely not dumping everything into Int and being some kind of idiot-savant with 8's everywhere else, and my chest loot rolls always suck very badly (Wi-flagged for loot or something), so if it's not a static item it may as well not exist to me.

Looks like if I make a rogue I will be forced to take Boost.

Yay for the broken enhancement system... :(

cforce
08-03-2006, 07:55 AM
Looks like if I make a rogue I will be forced to take Boost.


Yep, you nailed it. It's very difficult to fill the endgame Elite Rogue role without taking RAB, Skill Perception, and Skill Ingenuity.

Khallaya
08-03-2006, 09:37 AM
Yep, you nailed it. It's very difficult to fill the endgame Elite Rogue role without taking RAB, Skill Perception, and Skill Ingenuity...

...if you're a not human :p .

cforce
08-03-2006, 10:09 AM
...if you're a not human :p .

In which case, you probably still have to take 3 -- you can just get by with a different 3.

Although, lemme map this out to be sure. I'll try only two: HV and RAB.

Disable:
13 base
+3 Int (average value)
+4 HV
+7-10 item
+1 Rabbit Gloves
+6 Tools
(no feat, yet)
---------------
34-37 unboosted, 44-47 boosted.

Hm -- might get there *if* you find a +10 Disable item *and* the TF Elite traps are at the lowest part of the 52-55 range tr0tsky pinned them down in.

If we use pessimistic estimation, and only assume a +7 Disable item, and assume the the DC for those traps is 55, you come up -6 short, which can't be made up soley with feats.

So, I'd say the jury's still out, but I think, for the moment, Humans should mostly be taking 3 enhancements on skills, as well.

tr0tsky
08-03-2006, 10:18 AM
So, I'd say the jury's still out, but I think, for the moment, Humans should mostly be taking 3 enhancements on skills, as well.

I have Human Vers, Skill: Ingenuity, and Rogue's Action Boost, although I don't boost for anything but the new quests on Elite.

Khallaya
08-03-2006, 11:12 AM
I still have ingenuity, perception, HV and boost. I only really boost for UMD (GO GO CloudKill scrolls) and haggle right now so I have been seriously thinking about dropping it for SA accuracy, rogue dex or SA damage. I probably don't need perception anymore, but I still only have a +5 spot item so I donno if i wanna mess with dropping it only to have to relearn it later.

Currently though with a heroism clickable (which I have 7 charges of per rest) I can hit 51 DD, but I took two levels of fighter so I could get SF: DD, NF and still manage to get spring attack.

Desteria
08-08-2006, 11:45 PM
Didn't there used to be a skill cap at +40?

Khallaya
08-09-2006, 01:09 PM
Didn't there used to be a skill cap at +40?

Yes it was removed with the TF module. Jump is still capped at 40 though.

Thrudh
08-12-2006, 08:16 AM
Excellent post


Widely theorized that Trap Search DC's are their disarm DC's - 20, making the highest trap 25.
So, 25 to find all traps, 32-35 to also find all secret doors.

Since the max trap is now 55, max search needs to be 35 to find it... I'm assuming you forgot to edit this part when you edited the new highest trap DCs.

I must say I don't like the fact the every Rogue pretty much HAS to take the same three enhancements to be an effective trap-monkey...

Limits diversity in our class... I look longingly at the Fire Lore, the sneak attack, sneak damage, and Dex bonuses constantly...

I did swap out the Perception bonuses for sneak damage for a while, but now that I'm 9th level, I figure I'd better get Perception back, in case I get invited on a hard or elite high level quest (I haven't had any problems finding traps on like-leveled normal quests, even without the perception enhancement)

cforce
08-12-2006, 11:33 AM
Since the max trap is now 55, max search needs to be 35 to find it... I'm assuming you forgot to edit this part when you edited the new highest trap DCs.

Ah, good catch, thanks. Updated.

tr0tsky
08-12-2006, 11:39 AM
Ah, good catch, thanks. Updated.

Also, the secret door to the hidden shrine in VoN 4 has a DC of 45 on Elite.

cforce
08-12-2006, 12:49 PM
Also, the secret door to the hidden shrine in VoN 4 has a DC of 45 on Elite.

Mother of a that's holy... I can't even hit that with Action Boost *and* Skill Perception, I don't think.

13 ranks
+7 Skill Perception
+10 RAB
+7 Item
+3 Int
+1 Rabbit Gloves
+2 Heroism
= 43. Nope.

Human Versatility for the win, again. Looks like I'll have to farm for the Planar Grid.

Anyway, thanks for the correction; updated.

winsom
08-12-2006, 01:11 PM
Also, the secret door to the hidden shrine in VoN 4 has a DC of 45 on Elite.

Are you able to spot it with Spot less than 45?

My experience so far is that it is easier to search for traps and doors than it is to spot them. Maybe a difference of DC 5?

tr0tsky
08-12-2006, 01:21 PM
Are you able to spot it with Spot less than 45?

My experience so far is that it is easier to search for traps and doors than it is to spot them. Maybe a difference of DC 5?

I didn't get a spot notice, no.

My Spot score is a few lower than my Search score though, due to my Wis being lower than my Int

Thanatos
08-13-2006, 05:33 AM
Hmm... I'm seriously doubting it's even worth it to bother making a rogue again. They're becoming way, way too pigeonholed... it's as bad as the healbot/DVbot cleric Ƨrap.

MondoGrunday
08-16-2006, 09:26 AM
cforce, I love you man!

u got the whole package here, and thanks to those who added to it. this is best thread evar!

as a rogue, should i bother with swim and jump anymore or just use items and put the skill points in other areas?

Kedolan
08-21-2006, 07:55 PM
I had a quick question: how much disable/search/pick lock do I need, if I don't count in mod. 2 on elite? Im in the processs of working up a bard/rogue right now, and I think his DD would be in the +21/24 range at 10, before buffs/items/tools. If I can get him, say, a +7 DD item, and say +2 tools, that would put him at +32/35, and say +34/37 with a heroism potion.

I don't really plan on him being a "main" rogue for high lvl elite quests, but would that be high enough for the other quests (read: von1-4, xorian, tempest, etc, on normal/hard)? I don't need a 100% rate, but maybe only blow up on a 1 or 2 would be close enough for me, I think.

Anyway, if someone who has a similar skill modifier can let me know how often they fail/blow up traps in the higher-but-not-max quests, that would be great.

Venar
08-24-2006, 10:09 AM
I have a question about search.
My build is good, but i wanna use Rogue Dex and Elven Dex, meaning dropping the Perception enhancement.

For Spot, well, i already know where traps are. Worst case, i walk into it and take no damage. But seearch is really important.

Secrets Doors can be taken care of with Detect secret door Wands.
Now, the question:
Does the Ckeric spell "find trap" also find the control box???

tr0tsky
08-24-2006, 10:11 AM
Secrets Doors can be taken care of with Detect secret door Wands.
Now, the question:
Does the Ckeric spell "find trap" also find the control box???

No. It just finds the trap itself.

tr0tsky
08-24-2006, 10:12 AM
as a rogue, should i bother with swim and jump anymore or just use items and put the skill points in other areas?

I max out jump. Don't put any points into swim, it's worthless once you have an Underwater Action item.

Venar
08-24-2006, 10:39 AM
What of Bluff? Should it be pumped?
Kinda stretched now that balance is important...

tr0tsky
08-24-2006, 11:19 AM
What of Bluff? Should it be pumped?
Kinda stretched now that balance is important...

stretched?

non-human rogue with 16 int (or human rogue with 14 int) gets 11 maxed skills.

Disable Device, Search, Open Locks, Spot, UMD, Move Silently, Hide, Balance and 3 others. I would take Jump, Haggle, and split Diplo/Bluff, but that's just me.

Unless I'm forgetting something, but that looks about right to me.

blitzzeit
08-27-2006, 10:36 AM
my search and spot are my lowest skills, and i was thinking why not use detect secert door? will the spell not work on harder doors?

Cambo
08-28-2006, 10:02 PM
Secrets Doors can be taken care of with Detect secret door Wands.


As per previous poster experienced advice would be appreciated.

Does this include the secret door in hiding in plain sight ?
I would love to drop search enhancement but dont want to be useless for primary rogue stuff.

My last experience a few weeks ago with a find secret door wand on my Bard were hopeless even on Normal in an 7th level quest from memory.

Also is thier a set scale increase for DC's on Hard and Elite (i.e. Add 5 for hard 10 for elite ?)

Another Question:
How Critical are the traps at the top end for completing the quest. If I say had a 30% failure rate on traps at the top end would it be a game breaker ?
(or would everyone buff on fire protect etc and carry on)

Thanks for the Great thread..

Freeman
08-29-2006, 12:57 AM
How Critical are the traps at the top end for completing the quest. If I say had a 30% failure rate on traps at the top end would it be a game breaker ?
(or would everyone buff on fire protect etc and carry on)

It is possible to get past most traps, it is just a matter of how much in the way of resources it will use up.(I've seen a group get past the traps in VON5 after a box was blown, but it took multiple rez's to do it. No, I wasn't the rogue. I wasn't even in the group) One thing to keep in mind is that all of the DCs listed in this thread are for the highest level quests on Elite settings. The DCs for normal or hard quests are going to be lower. If you don't think you'll be running quests on elite that often, then you can set your skills accordingly.

Still, I'd say a 30% failure rate is probably too high for most groups, particularly a group running an elite quest. And if your failure rate is that high on hard or normal, then your trap skills definitely need improvement.(Note this refers to late-game quests. Everyone's going to fail some on the lower-level quests.)

Cambo
08-29-2006, 02:03 AM
Thanks for the feedback it is appreciated.


I've seen a group get past the traps in VON5 after a box was blown, but it took multiple rez's to do it. No, I wasn't the rogue. I wasn't even in the group)

Just for humor's sake...how do you see something when you not in the group ?:)



In looking at my skills (as most rogues would be doing after reading this thread) I hope I am covered for most even a lot of elite content until level 10 Elite (12) quests. Just got to figure out when/when not to action boost.

DD: I have 48 now with heroism and Fox Cunning, +3 Tools & 7 AB at moment and aiming at 53 with improved DD item, rabbit Gloves & +4 Tools.

I would need to find greater heroism item...and considder +2 Nimble if feat respec ever avail or level cap increase for any higher.

Search is my main concern as I would like to dump the enhancement +7 so if a wand takes care of the high end 45 for find secret doors....great new enhancement here I come....(just need to ensure I can cover the traps)

Search: I have 43 with heroism and Fox Cunning & 7 AB,
Question is if I drop Search enhancement will 36 cut it ? I know it requires the use of action boost and perhaps that is a problem in larger elite dungeons where there are more than 5 high dc traps....meaning the + 7 search enahncement stays for a while. (perhaps not if I assume I would need to boost to disable those traps anyway)

I suppose if I aviod the High level elite then 29 (no action boost) search will work for everthing up to 49 DC Traps...(46 without herosim/foxes) so basically if I cant find the trap without boost i probalby need boost to disable safely anyway.

Seems they are really pidgeon holeing rogues until the level cap goes up.
But I guess if you are a trap monkey you need to spend 1-2 feats and 1 enchancement to open the best traps.

I hope this post and any reponses are helpfull to others and it isnt too self centred.

So can I drop the Search enhancement and only use boost for the top dungeons....Seeking professional help here.....:)

Freeman
08-29-2006, 05:40 AM
Just for humor's sake...how do you see something when you not in the group ?:)

Easy. I was watching the group my wife was in while she played :p

Of course, I was only watching her play because my own computer had decided to die on me the morning we were scheduled to participate in our first dragon raid.(Great time for the motherboard and power supply to die)

Oh, and I would keep the search and spot enhancement. Spot is becoming more important now that more random traps are being added to the game.

Cambo
08-29-2006, 05:52 AM
Thanks for the advice....
Never thought about 2 computers....
or a wife that plays....
I wonder if I could trade mine.....

mmmm..Not worth the wife agro....

Thrudh
08-31-2006, 12:02 PM
I know there are some new traps on elite in Hiding in Plain Sight that have DCs in the low 50s...

However, is the highest trap in every other quest (even on elite) still at 45?

What I mean is, is a 41 skill in Disable and 25 skill in Search and Spot still good enough to find and disarm without fail every other quest on elite?

I'd like to get rid of the Action Boost and/or the Skill Perception enhancements to play around with other enhancements... I would keep Action Points available to switch back if necessary...

But if someone asks... "Hey, want to do <insert high-level quest here> on elite?", I just want to know I'm still able to do 100% of the traps... I don't want to ruin my reputation to explore other enhancements.

Basically what quests can I still do with a non-boosted non-perception-enhanced
42 Disable
41 Open Lock
30 Search
25 Spot

cforce
08-31-2006, 12:22 PM
What I mean is, is a 41 skill in Disable and 25 skill in Search and Spot still good enough to find and disarm without fail every other quest on elite?


AFAIK, yes, for traps.

ivarthevic
08-31-2006, 12:57 PM
I rolled a human rogue with an int of 14, 16 with the cap. At level 5, he has the disable device skill enhancement, human versatility, and a +7 disable device item (hafling only but can use with UMD).

I plan to take skill focus: DD at level 6, and of course max out Disable Device at each level. As near as I can tell, that gives me a raw disable device score of 29, which I believe matches the 'recommended' ability score in this thread..

I see that many posters do not use action boosts, but so far I have consistently used it - except once - on a trap in STK, part 1, on elite. You guessed it: a critical failure.

Am I missing something - without action boost - don't you almost always have a chance of failure in dungeons at or above your level on elite?

Thrudh
08-31-2006, 02:38 PM
I see that many posters do not use action boosts, but so far I have consistently used it - except once - on a trap in STK, part 1, on elite. You guessed it: a critical failure.

I recently ran through Gwyland's Stand on Elite (Level 10 equivalent), and with a unboosted Disable of 32, only critically failed a trap once (on a roll of a 1). I never used Action Boost during that time. Although apparently I should have - I was quite embarrassed by that one explosion - thank goodness I had already disabled 15 or so traps on the first try before that (There's a LOT of traps in Gwyland's Stand).

I'm surprised that any trap in STK (even on elite) would have been so high...

I don't like to have to depend on Action Boost, because #1 there may be more than 5 traps between rest shrines, and #2 I like to use the Damage and Haste Boosts during combat.

At 6th level, you should have a Disable of

+9 skill
+3 Human Verstility (after you get an Action Point)
+5 Skill Inguenity
+7 Item
+3 Intelligence
+3 Skill Focus: DD
+4 Tools (If you don't have Favor for the 1st rank with the Free Agents get it)
TOTAL = 34

Which is pretty darn good since a skill of 41 lets you get 99% of traps in the game (which you'll able to get with your Action Boost)

After you get the Skill Focus: DD... I can't imagine you needing to use Action Boost on every trap anymore on most dungeons in your level range (especially not on normal or hard)

Hironin
08-31-2006, 06:19 PM
In your numbers for Spot and especially Search, you appear to recommend a target skill equal to the highest DC. This appears to imply that no D20 roll is added to these skills when used. Is this really the case, or are you always assuming the worst possible situation (rolling a 1)?

Rickpa
08-31-2006, 06:36 PM
We always assume the worst.

I have an action boost habit. It doesn't matter how good I think I am, I boost whenever I can. especially with my younger rogue. I have found that a level 3 doing harbor quests on elite can still break a few trap boxes, even when dilligent attention has been paid to the vital skill.

cforce
08-31-2006, 08:07 PM
In your numbers for Spot and especially Search, you appear to recommend a target skill equal to the highest DC. This appears to imply that no D20 roll is added to these skills when used. Is this really the case, or are you always assuming the worst possible situation (rolling a 1)?

There is no roll on Spot and Search checks -- it's a straight up DC vs. Sill comparison.

Mainly, this is because after playing the game for a relatively short time, you *know* where all the traps and secret doors are. So, most rogues would simply keep checking until they rolled a 20.

Alternately, you could say that the game assumes Rogue always "take 20", and the max DC's are 20 higher that we're talking about -- different assumption about the way it's coded, but the same result.

cdbd3rd
08-31-2006, 08:20 PM
You can get puzzle cap from STK =). You can also buy foxes cunning wands/potions/scrolls. Personally I never dropped boost, I like it to much for haggle, UMD, Jump, and blackguards.

Okay, slightly off topic - but not too far since it's my rogue I'm asking for...

If you use UMD boosted to equip an item, how does that work once the boost wears off?
My example, I have a frost/PG repeater DC 20 - At next level, I'll have my UMD to within boosting range and will be able to equip it. So once equipped, will I still be able to use it once the boost wears off?

Been curious, just not so enough to pop a thread on it.

Thrudh
08-31-2006, 09:08 PM
After the boost wears off, you'll still have the item equipped and be able to use it...

Which is GREAT for armor, a ring, bracers, etc....

Not so great for a weapon, because if you switch weapons you won't be able re-equip the repeater without boosting again.

Keep working on your UMD skill until you can swap weapons without boosting (Deleras Tomb has a +3 UMD necklace static reward, and you might even want to grab the feat Skill Focus: UMD next chance you get.

Getting your UMD up to where you can use race-restricted items is pretty nice (around 12-14+). 20+ is super useful, letting you equip pretty much any item.

Khallaya
09-05-2006, 09:25 AM
It only checks your UMD vs the item difficulty when you equip it and login so you can wear it but if you don't have free space when you log off it'll overflow your inventory when you log back in. Not a big deal at all really.

In that context though I was more talking about UMD for res scrolls and such (I have since dropped boost since I never used it except for selling after awhile). Getting 20 UMD (the current max requirement for equiping gear) for rogues is pretty easy

Cambo
09-10-2006, 10:20 PM
I found a belt of Prayer today 3 charges of 30 seconds
that gives a +1 "Luck" bonus to firends (inc self) Attack, damage, saves and "Skills" (And a corresponding -1 to enemies).

I am not sure if this luck bonus for skills would stack with rabbit gloves....
But i guess it is another source of bonus that might be worth listing in avaiable buffs.

When I get the gloves i will let you know but dont hold your breath...I may not see them for a while.

Also found a nice cloak of foxes cunning x 5...great for higher end traps and not needing potions.

Azrad
09-22-2006, 10:30 AM
WhAT?!?! DC 61!!!!!! has Turbine gone mad?!

Its a game... and like any game based on a beautiful well rounded mathimatically perfected game it looses in the translation cause things to boost your skills are too easy to get.

Thanatos
09-22-2006, 09:57 PM
Its a game... and like any game based on a beautiful well rounded mathimatically perfected game it looses in the translation cause things to boost your skills are too easy to get.Namely, enhancements.

The enhancement system would be a heck of a lot more reasonable if it provided enhancement and competence bonuses instead of unnamed ones. The unnamed ones stack with everything, but if they didn't stack with items, they'd be useful as an alternate way to raise your score without being a neccessity.

Got a +5 weapon? Fighter Action Boost would temporarily bump up the attack modifier 5 points, since it's enhancement bonus overrides the +5 AB from the weapon's enhancement bonus. If you were using a +1 weapon, it would end up increasing your to-hit by +9 while it's on.

For skills, the DCs of things could be lowered by 3-10 points if action points could only buy you competence bonuses like the ones you get from items. If you have a nice set of skill items for Open Lock and Disable Device, you don't need Skill Ingenuity. On the other hand, having Skill Ingenuity would likely free up a couple item slots or at least save you the hassle of item swapping all the time (and the risk of forgetting to swap).

Some of the enhancements might need to be assigned bonus types that do stack, because their effect is rather small. The "Elven Melee/Ranged Attack/Damage" set might be called a "race bonus", or maybe even better, they could become a feat-enhancer similar to ones like "Fighter's Dodge". For example, "Elven Ranged Attack" might increase the effect of your Weapon Focus: Ranged while you're weilding a long- or short- bow, while Elven Ranged Damage would be keyed off Weapon Specialization or Improved Critical (so it's not solely available to fighters).

johris
09-25-2006, 09:41 AM
Any updates to the High Water Marks for the new quests in SUS?

Havn't done them yet and contemplating taking more levels of Ranger instead of rogue. But want to make sure I have a reasonable chance to succed in the lvl 12 stuff

Mitherkinseric
09-25-2006, 09:48 AM
My apaologies for not having specific numbers but, the Dwarf Champions in the new Relic Quest (where you farm for ore) appear to have a Listen Skill in the 30+ range.

When I boosted I was able to make the *glowing foot-steps* on my rogue go away but otherwise I had to be careful when going thru the circular assending hallway that leads to the main room. I believe when you Tumble, it by-passes the Listen checks on mobs so that may be an option if trying to sneak past them.

cforce
09-25-2006, 03:59 PM
Any updates to the High Water Marks for the new quests in SUS?


So far, they appear to be lower than the high water marks set in Twilight Forge -- have a couple of PM's in that regard, with results significantly below the TF high-water marks.

Beaniiman
09-29-2006, 03:17 PM
not sure the exact numbers but i rolled a 3 without boost in the relic quest to disable the traps. I should check my numbers next time so I know the exact roll. I know that rolling 1s on normal no boost is no problem, i am guessing hard is the same. I am disappointed they r so low and even more so that the traps themselves are pointless (Poison). You dont really need a rogue for that quest at all.

Mastodon
10-01-2006, 07:28 PM
Easy to hit these nice stats with the right build:

Flamingo the Friendly Bird
Halfling Rogue

DD:
+13 Base
+4 Int Bonus (14 base INT + 4 INT Item/Fox's)
+7 Skill Inguenity
+10 DD Item
+10 RAB
+6 +4 Tools
+4 Greater Heroism
+1 Rabbit Gloves
-------------------------------
+55 DD without feats wasted.

OL:
+13 Base
+10 Dex Bonus (30 Dex at level 10 [20 Base, +2 Ability Score, +3 Rogue Enhancement, +2 Halfling Enhancement, +3 Dex item)
+10 item
+6 Tools
+4 Greater Heroism
+1 Rabbit Gloves
+7 Skill Inguenity
+10 RAB
-------------------------------
+61 OL without feats wasted.

Other stats are great for a great DPS Rogue (high 40's for Listen, Spot, Search, Hide and Move Silently)

My Rogue took Stunning Blow, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Piercing, and Shield Proficiency.

To hit (NOTE: ALL THE FOLLOWING ARE SELF BUFFS/HIGHER CAN BE ACHIEVED WITH PARTY BUFFS):
+7 BAB
+5 Weapon
+1 Weapon Focus
+1 Halfling Bonus
+10 Dex Bonus
+4 Greater Heroism
+1 Divine Favor
+1 Haste
+2 Divine Power
-------------------------------
+32/+32/+37 Attack progression. Not bad for a character that gets +5d6 a hit on my/fighters stunned enemies.

+32 to hit self buffed isn't bad at all, even compared to my fighter (+61 Self Buffed). The only thing on elite I don't hit too much are Blackguards, which with +37 3rd attack, and including +2 flanking, I hit on a roll of 8 or above.

Level 12 I plan to take Improved Crit: Piercing.

So, in conclusion, I have a hard hitting, moderatly high to-hit, very high skill rogue that does it's main function (disabling) and can still help the party out and doesn't make too much of a sponge of itself with:

AC (Without Pally buffs)
+10 Base
+15 +5 Mithril Chain Shirt
+3 Barkskin Potion
+1 Halfling Bonus
+7 Heavy Steel Shield
+1 Haste
+3 Protection (Spectacular Optics)
+2 Dodge (Chaosgarde)
-------------------------------
+42 (not bad at all)

Honestly, if I had to make a rogue that would be a trap monkey, I wouldn't do it; it's way too boring, however the build I've choosen allows for not only some of the highest DD/OL Skills (lower than Human builds and Nimble Finger/Skill Focus builds by +9, but not crippling combat wise as said build because the loss of 1 enhancement slot and 2 feats), but some extreme offensive power.

I love this build and would not build a rogue a differant way.

Thanatos
10-01-2006, 07:34 PM
But you're a halfling... ick. :p

Mastodon
10-01-2006, 08:30 PM
But they are so cute when they sleep!

Thanatos
10-01-2006, 09:43 PM
But they are so cute when they sleep!The halfling face (well, male ones mostly) just looks creepy to me. Not in a cool necromancer sort of creepy way, either... but kind of like the hybrid deep ones from Lovecraft stories, only with ratlike traits instead of fish ones.

Mastodon
10-01-2006, 10:16 PM
The halfling face (well, male ones mostly) just looks creepy to me. Not in a cool necromancer sort of creepy way, either... but kind of like the hybrid deep ones from Lovecraft stories, only with ratlike traits instead of fish ones.

Hehe, and I don't know if it's just me or not, but does anyone notice the slightly strange head shape that halflings have? I made mine have long hair to hide it, it was too weird for me. >_<

Thanatos
10-01-2006, 10:38 PM
Hehe, and I don't know if it's just me or not, but does anyone notice the slightly strange head shape that halflings have? I made mine have long hair to hide it, it was too weird for me. >_<It's supposed to be that way... there are drawings in the D&D Player's Handbook that show differences in the skull shapes of the different races. It's nothing that affects gameplay, just a way to more easily tell races apart when scale isn't readily apparent, and perhaps let characters identify whether a skeleton is a human child, adult halfling, or whatever.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph_gallery/X_Chap2_Racesc.jpg
There are other drawings with more detail for some of the races, but you get the idea.

Mastodon
10-01-2006, 11:11 PM
No I know heh, just a joke, a funny thought that I figured I'd throw in along side them having strange faces. :]

Schmackdown
10-03-2006, 09:17 AM
Great reference post, thanks.

Buffs
-----

(non-stacking; all morale bonuses)

Bard/Inspire Competence: +2 all skills (not self-applicable)

Heroism/Good Hope: +2 all skills
Greater Heroism: +4 all skills
[B]
Inspire Competence is now correctly flagged as a Competence bonus, so it should stack with most other skill buffs. Ask for it if you think the +2 will help and if you actually have a bard in your party.

What's the general consensus about the "Listen" skill? I've seen builds that max it, also builds that ignore it. It's barely even mentioned here.
A high Listen on the sneak is useful for lighting up the footfalls from hiding, yet moving, foes. A high Spot would take care of this more effectively, though Listen is likely your only chance if they're invisible, which FWICT isn't often. Most of the time it's not worth much, sadly. The only time I've found a high Listen to be useful is with Assassins on TS Elite, and even that's pretty rare.

Xoriat
10-16-2006, 08:18 PM
Allright so I made a few posts and listened too the advice..so heres my build and projected level 10 DD...
rogue 2/ wizard 8
str 8
dex 16
con 12
int 30 (20+2+4+4)
wis 10
cha 10


so....
13 base
10 int
10 item
6 tools
2 heroism
3 skill focus
2 nimble
3 skill ingenuity 1
--------------
looking at +50 ...no RAB


I have the +10 item and +4 int item.....in holding hahaha took the nimble and skill focus level one and four....cant progress further with skill engenuity but I control the crowds



thoughts pls Im at level rog1/wiz3 if the DC are coming down then all is good and no I havent sacrificed search or spot....just sneak....but im the thief not the caster why wont you take me seriously....Im the thief

cforce
10-17-2006, 08:41 AM
Inspire Competence is now correctly flagged as a Competence bonus, so it should stack with most other skill buffs. Ask for it if you think the +2 will help and if you actually have a bard in your party.


So noted, thanks!

Wulf_Ratbane
10-24-2006, 09:22 AM
This is probably pretty obvious but I hadn't really noticed it before. Sorry if it's been posted already.

Restricted items have a UMD DC equal to 10+ML.

ML:6 = DC16, ML:8 = DC18, ML:10 = DC20.

I haven't seen a restricted 12th level item yet but presumably they'll be DC22.


So ideally a rogue will want to keep his UMD equal to his level + 10.

That's unlikely at low levels but with CHA items, golden cartouche and rabbit gloves, etc. you should be able to hit that benchmark by mid levels.

Ninetailfox
11-03-2006, 03:32 PM
So does anyone know if the dc's were lowered in the mod 3 update for the top end traps? Or is the cap needed still about 51? Was curious if I can get rid of rogue boost anytime in the near future if ever.

Torin17
11-04-2006, 09:38 PM
Greetings all,

Ok, so I am a bit confused. The initial post on this thread says that you should have the following stats at level 10:

Disable: +29
Open: +29
Search: 16
Spot: 19 (nope, you don't get to assume the potion of Heroism for spot )

But it is unclear to me where these values come from. Do they include the 13 base ranks in each skill? The paragraph preceding these stats implies that the 13 base ranks are not included but that does not make sense to me.

I am somewhat new to trying to figure out how to make a rogue that specializes in traps and locks so I appreciate everyone's patience.

So what I would like to know is if I want to meet the requirements specified in the original post what should my skill levels for the above four skills be at level 10 if you just use your base stats, skills, enhancements and feats. No items. No potions. No buffs.

I have created a Drow Rogue in DDOCharGen with the following stats at level 10 (remember, no items, buffs, etc):

Dex: 23 (+6)
Int: 16 (+3)
Wis: 14 (+2)

Elven Keen Senses (+2 Search, +2 Spot)

Feats: Nimble Fingers (+2 DD, +2 OL)
Skill Focus: DD (+3 DD)

Skills: Disable Device +13
Open Locks +13
Search +13
Spot +13

Enhancements: Skill Ingenuity V (+7 DD, +7 OL)
Skill Perception V (+7 Search, +7 Spot)
Rogue Dexterity III (included above)

So this gives me:

Disable Device +28
Open Locks +28
Search +25
Spot +24

I know I have not used Rogue Action Boost. I am trying to get to the base numbers without using it just to see if it is possible.

But with the above build I am one short in Disable Device and Open Locks. I could make up the one in Disable Device by boosting the Int to 18 and making that a +4. But I still don't see how to get the Open Locks to +29. Am I missing something? Do the stats in the first post include things like +4 for the lock picks, +2 for Heroism, etc.?

Thank you for any insights and/or information!

Torin

Cambo
11-05-2006, 10:39 PM
Yeah I've always had trouble reconciling it too.....
Lets see how we get there CForce quoted: "29 + (disable enh) + (disable feats) + (int bonus) >= 50?"

Based on Static item availablity

Base Skill........: +13
+4 Tools..........: + 6 ** Random drop or Free Agent Favor (Rank 2)
+7 DD Item........: + 7
+1 Rabbit Gloves..: + 1
Hero Pot..........: + 2
Sub Total.......: +29

Enhancements......: + 7
Feat 1 Nimble F...: + 2
Feat 2 Skill focus: + 3
Int Bonus.........: + 4 * Most Rogues would have at least 14 (18 With Fox C)
Total...........: +45 (Not Quite 50+ so I'm missing something)

Perhaps CForce was counting Action Boost (On reflection I think so)

Action Boost......: +10 - I know it has dropped since Mod 3 now so you wont get 10 anymore (+6?)

Other Possibilities - rightly not counted by CForce but getting more reasonable at high level

+10 Item..........: + 3 - Common enough at high level
+ 5 Tools.........: + 1 - Got some from the auction house

Other variables that may be situational
Greater Hero......: + 2 - (+4 that Doesnt stack with Heroism ) Planar Gird
Bard Song (IC)....: + 2
Human Versitility.: + 4

Tenkari_Rozahas
11-06-2006, 01:44 AM
hmm, not bad. I come close to about 50 with my level 8/1 rogue/Fighter depending on the tools.

I got a +11 DD Item (Gloves, so i cant use my Rabbits gloves.)
+12 Ranks.
Human Versitality IV +4
Int bonus +4
+2 Nimble Fingers
+3 SF: DD
+6 skill Enhancement
+2 Hero Pot

thats a 44. all my theive's tools are +3 to +5, so thats 49-51. I dont even use the rogues skill boost.

Munin
11-18-2006, 06:41 PM
Has anyone confirmed the DC's in mod 3? Any Dev's out there willing to confirm this? I am trying to build a rogue hybrid tank that can disable and search all traps on elite without failing and need to know where i need my skills to get to so i can possibly use enhancements for stuff other than rogue skills :cool:

Thanks

Tiblorian
11-19-2006, 12:02 AM
Lower than the twighlight forge ones for sure. 1+51 is still a perfect disable on elite for all of them I've rolled ones on. In fact when i forgot my +11 disable goggles(left search ones on silly me) I still disarmed one on hard or elite(forget which) with a 2. They are significantly lower and fairly easy to dodge. Rogue is becoming more useful for thier secondary abilities with high water marks so easy to get and majority of traps easily avoidable.

Inkblack
12-02-2006, 05:02 PM
Hi all,

Ran VoN4 on elite last night. Buffed my Search as high as it would go (45) and still could not find the secret door. Tried twice, moving back from the wall a short distance the second time. Still no luck. Pulled out a wand of detect secret doors, click. There it was, right in front of me.

I thought for sure I would find it at 45. I did verify the total on my skills tab, but didn't think to get a screenie for proof.

14 - Lvl 11 Rogue
+3 - 16 Int
+5 - Goggles of Minute Seeing +5
+1 - Rabbit Gloves
+4 - Human Versatility IV
+8 - Skill Perception VI
+4 - Greater Heroism
+6 - Rogue Action Boost
45 Total

Not sure if I was doing something wrong, or it just wasn't enough.

Cheers,
Ink

Dirac
12-10-2006, 04:30 PM
Taking drachine's advice, I spent the afternoon going in and out of HIPS elite testing the first two trap boxes. I have the following information on the second box (the one that disables the spikes). The data from first box did not give results so precise, but were consistent with the second.

40 = critical failure
41 = failure
45 = success

That seems to indicate that the DC's have been lowered since mod three. I would very much like to hear from other rogues on the data they have colleted from the higher level quests. Are the HIPS elite traps still the high water mark? Are they all this low?

Cannon
12-10-2006, 06:19 PM
Wow Dirac, thank you for taking the time to do this. I know that it can be a complete pain to figure this stuff out.

Cannon

Impaqt
12-11-2006, 10:08 AM
Has any more research been done on Spot? Building a Rogue/bard right now and trying tobalance my Spot/Search distribution so i can keep Buffing CON,Perf,DD,OL.....

SableShadow
12-11-2006, 11:32 PM
Has any more research been done on Spot? Building a Rogue/bard right now and trying tobalance my Spot/Search distribution so i can keep Buffing CON,Perf,DD,OL.....


From what I've seen, Search and Spot difficulties are fairly close, if not identical DCs.

cforce
12-12-2006, 08:48 AM
Original post has been edited to reflect Dirac's and Inkblack's observations. Thanks for the input, guys! If possible, it would be great to get folks capable of higher than 45 Search to try that secret door on Elite.

Cannon
12-14-2006, 06:23 PM
Question about Dirac's numbers. Was the previous high-water mark on the first traps in that quest or was it set on some of the later traps? If it was the later we still do not know what the high-water mark is but if we know what the previous DC for those first 2 traps was, we would have a good approximation of the global reduction (assuming all things were reduced evenly across the game)

Cannon

Impaqt
12-14-2006, 06:49 PM
From what I've seen, Search and Spot difficulties are fairly close, if not identical DCs.


Yes, but how much lower from the DIfficulty to Disable are the searc/spot checks? ANd these are Static checks as well rght? No D20 is added?

st1gma
12-17-2006, 02:29 AM
I'll do the foxes cunning...no way to the ugly hat. I have a +2 int ring...I just have other rings I normally prefer to wear. :)

You can hide the ugly hat...

/showhelmet off

:D

winsom
12-17-2006, 03:51 AM
My rogue 2 / bard 8 is finding that +23 Spot is several points too low (less than 6) to get the Trap warning in some of the highest level elite quests. Therefore, Spot 28+ would be a good minimum number to acheive.

At lower to mid-levels, the required skill to Spot trap warnings is actually lower than the required skill in Search to find the traps. This trend may continue at the higher levels, but I am not sure, as my character's Search is currently 5 higher than Spot.

SableShadow
12-27-2006, 10:22 PM
VoN 4 Elite, shrine traps, left trap box.

Search: 14 ranks + 10 item + 1 luck + 3 int + 2 foxes + 4 super heroism = 34 = found

Disable: 14 ranks + 10 item + 1 luck + 3 int + 2 foxes + 4 super heroism + 6 enhancment + 7 (+5) tools + 2 roll = 49, fail but no boom. My math is right, the feedback was "you roll a 2 (+47) failed!".

This value seems odd to me, and I could have sworn I've run this on Elite under Mod 2 and disarmed it with a lower value.

Anyone else have any VoN 4 elite data?

SableShadow
12-29-2006, 01:22 AM
VoN 4 Hard, shrine traps, left trap box. Same character, total 49, successful disarm.

Not really new data, but I wish one could extrapolate trap difficulties from one level of quest difficulty to another.

Cannon
01-01-2007, 07:01 PM
Ran Titan Forge on elite and the locked chest that before Mod 3 required a +41 to open was opened on a 8+42=50 This chest seems to have dropped in difficulty a lot.

Cannon

Thanatos
01-01-2007, 08:05 PM
Ran Titan Forge on elite and the locked chest that before Mod 3 required a +41 to open was opened on a 8+42=50 This chest seems to have dropped in difficulty a lot.

Cannon
Which is good, although quests need to be designed to challenge a wider variety of rogue skills, the stealth skills especially.

negative
01-01-2007, 11:22 PM
The "?" next to spot is buggin me, so I'm posted what little info on the topic I have. This isn't enough to remove the question mark, but atleast its some data.

Hiding In Plain Sight: Elite

Spot: 24 - no trap warning (throughout the mission, ie: all traps)
Spot: 25 - trap warning (tested on the first spikes / acid trap boxes)

Search: 25 - nothing popped (same spikes and acid trap boxes)
Search: 26 - everything popped (same spikes and acid trap boxes)

Disable: roll 1 (+44) success

For Ghola-Fan: Elite, same Spot of 24, and I spotted every trap box no problem, no heroism needed.

Osharan_Tregarth
01-08-2007, 09:32 PM
Move silently....

With a 33 in move silent, in BAM, the guards at the doors hear you coming, and start looking around for you.
At 36.... No problem.

negative
01-09-2007, 09:43 AM
I saw that the main page was updated per my spot research. I want to point out that in no way do I believe that to be the highest spot required in the game. The Von4 high watermark trap probably requires a 30 based on its search and disable DC. If you want to be sure about your spot I'd recommend >=30.

I don't often run Von4 elite though, so maybe someone else can test this.

cforce
01-09-2007, 09:53 PM
Yep -- sorry, I often lurk on this thread, and update the main page, but don't always have the time to reply beyond updating the OP.

Regarding Spot -- yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if there are Spot DC's that are higher, but one thing I've found is that documenting a potentially 'wrong' value is a much better catalyst for drawing out people's additional input on adjusting it. Sadly, people sometimes pass on offering up "hey, I know this data point", but if they get to *refute* another poster with that same data point, they're much more eager!

Stupid human nature...

At any rate, that's really the first cut *anyone's* taken at drawing a line in the sand for Spot, so I'm happy to have a starting point!

Cambo
01-09-2007, 11:40 PM
Move silently....

With a 33 in move silent, in BAM, the guards at the doors hear you coming, and start looking around for you.
At 36.... No problem.

Elite ? Thanks for the info

Cambo
01-09-2007, 11:46 PM
Trap DC VOL (Vampire) Elite

Rolled 7 + 36 (Forgot to Equip my Disable item) and failed (not critical) to disable the second trap on the back of the pilar in the Fire Corridor (Left ?).

I think that makes the range 44-47 That seems about the same as HIPS Elite

If enough of this data is posted it may be possible to specualte DC's on dungeon level at standard, hard, elite - Good work Submitters.

Osharan_Tregarth
01-10-2007, 04:27 AM
Elite ? Thanks for the info


Sorry... Yes, elite.

negative
01-18-2007, 09:54 PM
Did some more research into the spot skill. Ran Von4 Elite just now. The result was surprising.

Shrine room force traps (high watermark for disable and search):

Spot = 21: No spot notice
Spot = 22: Spot notice

This is probably the same spot for the rest of the traps in the mission, I was running with 24 spot and spotted everything.

These numbers are very confusing to me. I was excpecting a spot of 30 to be required based on other traps. I am tempted to come prepared to retest the search and disable for these traps, I'm not conviced they were as high as reported.

edit: this was to spot the boxes, the traps themselves didn't seem to have a spot check at all. Even a 25 didn't pop warning near them.

Osharan_Tregarth
01-19-2007, 05:00 PM
edit: this was to spot the boxes, the traps themselves didn't seem to have a spot check at all. Even a 34 didn't pop warning near them.

Ummm... Now I'm confused.... Are you SPOTTING the traps "you sense a trap", or are you SEARCHING to find the trap box.

negative
01-20-2007, 12:49 PM
Ummm... Now I'm confused.... Are you SPOTTING the traps "you sense a trap", or are you SEARCHING to find the trap box.

I am spotting the traps as in "you sense a trap". To clarify what I meant. The spot warning for these traps is based around the location of the boxes, not the actual force traps.

Before I opened the door and set off the traps, I played around with my spot items to see if the traps themselves would trigger a "you sense a trap" warning, but they didn't. I may only have accurately gotten my spot up to 25 (what I had when I first approached the door) at this time (I don't think I properly backed away and reset the warning), but 25 is still higher than the 22 needed to discover the location of the boxes.

When I opened the door , I had no idea traps were about to be set off except from past experiance. I still had 25 spot at this time. I ran through the traps to the back of the shrine, and that was the first time I got a "you sense a trap" warning. I then moved back to the traps, until the warning disapeared (too far away) and changed my spot items. I tried 18, 19, 20, 21, without a warning, and recieved a warning with 22, 23, 24, 25, 28, 30, 31, 32, 33, and 34. (I brought alot of items and heroism pots to do this right).

All in all, this seems par of the course. On almost all content except the some of the twilight forge stuff, the traps themselves do not seem to produce a "you sense a trap" warning ,it is only the boxes themselves that produce the effect. It just happens that most boxes are close enough to the trap that it it warns you of the trap as well.

Osharan_Tregarth
01-20-2007, 05:04 PM
I am spotting the traps as in "you sense a trap". To clarify what I meant. The spot warning for these traps is based around the location of the boxes, not the actual force traps.


Ahhh... That makes sense to me then. Thanks.

I'll have to pay a little more attention to things like that on my ranger/rogue, to see if I can narrow some stuff down while I'm leveling him up.

Cannon
01-29-2007, 06:36 PM
Has anyone picked the lock found in the chains of Flame quest? (this is the lock behind which is the chest)

If memory serves me, I needed a 51 or higher to pick that lock on normal but I may just be having a brain fart.

The next time someone runs that quest on normal/hard/elite please note what you needed to pick that particular gate.

thanks,
Cannon

Raithe
01-31-2007, 02:41 PM
Has anyone picked the lock found in the chains of Flame quest? (this is the lock behind which is the chest)

If memory serves me, I needed a 51 or higher to pick that lock on normal but I may just be having a brain fart.

The next time someone runs that quest on normal/hard/elite please note what you needed to pick that particular gate.

thanks,
Cannon

With a +35 modifier, I know I have failed on a roll of 18. That puts the DC somewhere above 53 (on normal).

eclipsechild
02-12-2007, 02:36 PM
Can someone verify the new high marks for rogue skills in Risia? It is not possible do plan ahead how to allocate the action points if we do not know the new DCs.

Phesic
02-12-2007, 02:48 PM
Can someone verify the new high marks for rogue skills in Risia? It is not possible do plan ahead how to allocate the action points if we do not know the new DCs.

The only test I did was the first trap on HiPS on HARD.

Spot 24 = No Spot
Spot 29 = Spot

Search 26 = NO BOX
Search 27 = BOX

DD 32 = Failed w/o Critical failure.


If this helps someone extrapalate, good.

Inkblack
02-12-2007, 11:28 PM
Just got done on Risia, playing around on VoN5 elite:

Spot: 32 no trap, 34 trap warning
Search: 32: not found, 34 found
Disable Device: 41 failed, 42 succeeded

All of these are for the spinning blade traps in the lightning corridors.

Edit, 2/15/07, after 1st Risia update: Search/Spot DC is 34, 33 failed to find the box.

Cheers,
Ink

Cannon
02-13-2007, 11:04 PM
Played through "Chains of Flame" again in the desert and was only able to unlock the door with the chest behind it with a roll of a 20 +35. a roll of a 19 did NOT unlock the door. This puts that DC at 55 on NORMAL.


Cannon

Inkblack
02-15-2007, 11:26 PM
Tried HiPS Elite on Risia, 1st trap. DC's were lower than VoN5 elite posted above. 29 search found the trap boxes.

Cheers,
Ink

negative
02-16-2007, 08:33 AM
From January 2nd on live server:

Hiding In Plain Sight: Elite

Spot: 24 - no trap warning (throughout the mission, ie: all traps)
Spot: 25 - trap warning (tested on the first spikes / acid trap boxes)

Search: 25 - nothing popped (same spikes and acid trap boxes)
Search: 26 - everything popped (same spikes and acid trap boxes)

Disable: roll 1 (+44) success

And now on the test server:

The only test I did was the first trap on HiPS on HARD.

Spot 24 = No Spot
Spot 29 = Spot

Search 26 = NO BOX
Search 27 = BOX

DD 32 = Failed w/o Critical failure.

Tried HiPS Elite on Risia, 1st trap. DC's were lower than VoN5 elite posted above. 29 search found the trap boxes.

Cheers,
Ink

It looks to me like they actually raised the DC's in this quest. That's unbelievable.

Inkblack
02-22-2007, 10:58 AM
From WarCry's Dev Chat Log:
http://ddo.warcry.com/news/view/68937-Dev-Chat-Log

<snip>

WarCry: Ninevah: What is this we are hearing about trap DC checks being lowered? Please tell me this is false.
HSinclair_DDO: There's potentially a lot I could say about this, but the short answer is that disable DC's will be going slightly down. This will be much more noticeable at lower levels (at the higher levels it may only be a few points difference. Search and Spot DCs are actually going slightly up. These values were previously far too low, and people with little to no actual investment were able to buff up and find high-end traps.
HSinclair_DDO: This doesn't mean that you have to play a specific race or load up on tons of feats just to perform your group role, but it does mean that you should actually have to invest in your rogue skills to perform rogue functions.
HSinclair_DDO: I won't tell you the specific values, that's for you guys to find out (:
TheRockingDead_DDO: Low DCs or not, I'll find a way to make those traps kill you.

<snip>

Cheers,
Ink

negative
02-22-2007, 01:39 PM
WarCry's Dev Chat <snip>

That makes what I noticed about HIPS elite in my previous post make sence. Very interesting. Now I just need to figure out if my MC rogue with only 8 rogue levels will have a high enough spot/search without taking feats. Gonna be cutting it close.

Impaqt
02-22-2007, 02:07 PM
Found Something very Interesting last night while Favor Running.....

Chamber of Insanity.. House K.. Level 5 or 6 Quest.. I was told the traps couldnt be Found/Disarmed.... ANd with my Standaing 25 Search, they didnt pop.. Buffing up to 30 and the popped...... :eek:

So these Traps CAN be Found, Its just rediculously high for a L7 or 8 Quest....

eclipsechild
02-22-2007, 03:13 PM
Found Something very Interesting last night while Favor Running.....

Chamber of Insanity.. House K.. Level 5 or 6 Quest.. I was told the traps couldnt be Found/Disarmed.... ANd with my Standaing 25 Search, they didnt pop.. Buffing up to 30 and the popped...... :eek:

So these Traps CAN be Found, Its just rediculously high for a L7 or 8 Quest....

You should give the devs some feedback about your findings. They have said we are welcomed to report any trap DC that we feel is too high for the level of the quest.

Cambo
02-24-2007, 05:24 AM
!!!!What!!!! 30+ spot & search
I'll need to respec my feats or re-roll.
Wisdom was a dump stat for my 1/2ling and they have no spot/searc racial enhancemets but I could still get the job done the way he was built...

So they drop the + 8 enahncement to +4 and bump the DC's up
Thats going to make some rogue builds useless at the high end.

I cant reroll as Im 1200 Favor and building slowly (taken 12 months to get to 1200)........

Please say it isnt true................

Or give use at minimum a free full feat respec...this is a major change..

Strali
02-26-2007, 06:18 PM
So IF i'm reading the posts right the DC's on Risia are showing the following so far:
(PLEASE correct me if I missed something as I'd like to know the new high-water marks)

Previous Highwater Marks:
Spot +25
Search +31 (with exceptions)
Open Lock +33
Disable Device +45

New Highwater Marks:
Spot +34 (Von 5 elite)
Search +33 or 34 (Von 5 Elite)
Open Lock +? (don't know if it will be lower or higher)
Disable Device +42 (42 Von 5 Elite)

So if this is correct spot has now increased by +9, seach by +2 or 3, and Disable is down -3?

Seems like a nasty jump on the spot check requirement, especially considering the new enhancement system!

negative
02-26-2007, 06:49 PM
Sounds about right from my reading Strali. Everything seems about right, cept that spot I'm alittle iffy on. That's pretty high, considering it uses a less important stat (Dex > Int > Wis, Con, Str) so it's never that high of a stat on any rogue, less so on MC'ers.

I think my MC rogue can get that high with a +10 spot item (I might need a Greater Heroism, but hey, I think that is approriate for elite quests), so a pure rogue with a +10 should be fine as well.

Think of it this way though, spot is the least important skill. Better to just use your evasion, let the Barb block the fireball with his face, or throw a halfing/dorf down the hall to check:D

I actually like what they are doing with these changes though. If you put in 15 ranks for your skills, and spend your AP's on the enhancements, and spend some time to get the good items (read: +10 with a level 14 cap), even a 1rogue/11x MC should be fine, though that extreme might take some buffs. And lets face it, if you've got full ranks in the skill (15 ranks @ 12), your just as much a rogue as anyone else and you should be succeeding. (if you want to debate whether a 1 rogue/11x with 15 ranks in rogue skills is a full rogue, let's start a new thread, not here please)

On the other hand, a batman build that only has around 4 ranks in the skills is prevented from doing most rogue stuff now (since there is no roll for search, they will never find the box, which means they can't just cross their fingers and hope they roll well on the disable check), which fixes a lot of concerns I've seen floating around, imo.

Strali
02-27-2007, 07:04 AM
Sounds about right from my reading Strali. Everything seems about right, cept that spot I'm alittle iffy on. That's pretty high, considering it uses a less important stat (Dex > Int > Wis, Con, Str) so it's never that high of a stat on any rogue, less so on MC'ers.

9 points does seem like a steep jump, whereas the 2-3 point changes in the other skills seem pointless in comparison to a 9 point jump.



Think of it this way though, spot is the least important skill. Better to just use your evasion, let the Barb block the fireball with his face, or throw a halfing/dorf down the hall to check:D


I agree spot is the least important of the 4 right now, but for 1-2x MC builds, if they do make the traps randomized, and less survivable, spotting the traps before stepping in them just became a lot more valuable, especially to the rest of the party, who will get tired of dying due to an inability of the MC rogue to spot the trap before it goes off.

Basically all those multiclasses with a low spot check will now be worthless in a quest as a trap finding rogue. That is until they re-roll basically the same toon with a slightly higher spot (or find a good supply of expendable dwarves to toss down the hall as you suggested). While a multiclass could scout ahead, in place of tossing the dwarf, most MC rogues do not have the evasion to find the trap by setting it off (without getting Cleric agro for burning mana/wand/scrolls for the healing/rezzing required for this trap finding method).



On the other hand, a batman build that only has around 4 ranks in the skills is prevented from doing most rogue stuff now (since there is no roll for search, they will never find the box, which means they can't just cross their fingers and hope they roll well on the disable check), which fixes a lot of concerns I've seen floating around, imo.

Actually, I do have what could be considered a Batman build that I made on Day1, before the term was coined. He's got some pretty gimpy skill ranks due to poor judgement, one of them being only 4 ranks of search. It just so happens however that with his gear and HV, he can still hit all the current high-water marks, and after the new update will still be able to, with some changes. I've also re-rolled him as a 32 pointer, and that toon will definitly not have any issues with the new marks if they are what I wrote above.

It will still be rather easy to make a build with the new system that has only 1 level of rogue. The choices on how to get there now are more limited. You can also hit some of those high-water marks without having to maximize the core ranks to 15.

Take open locks: given a 14 dex with items, taking +1 through enhancements, +11 item, +4 greater heroism, +2 for stat bonus, +6 for tools (+7 if you have +5 tools), you would get +24-25, leaving only 8-9 ranks needed to get +33 (53 DC lock assuming roll of 20).

With two levels of rogue there is almost no excuse to not have 15 ranks in the core skills though.

If the requirement for spot goes up, along with a 9 point skill cost increase, there will be a lot of MC rogues who's time and effort were wasted on thier current builds based on the exisiting system. I think it would be relativly easy to add a one time skill respec to acknolwedge that the skill point system is highly related to the enhancement system, and that making such drastic changes to one should co-inside with a respec of the other.

And by relativly easy: if you can re-design the the enhancement system, a re-allocation of skilll points should be less complicated (worst case allow us to re-train with our exisiting XP.)

It might even go a long way towards customer loyalty to allow a one time repec of skill points. I think it would at the least ease a lot of the frustration the new enhancement system will make.

I can imagine there are a also a lot of players who have dusty characters that they would love to have made a different choice on, and as a result of that poor choice, do not play those characters. Most people are not enthusiastic about re-rolling characters, for a multitude of reasons I don't think I need to list. A skill respec might breathe new life into those toons.

negative
02-27-2007, 09:05 AM
If this is too far off-topic, someone say something, we can make a new thread. Personally, I think this stuff is just as helpfull as the high water marks.

It will still be rather easy to make a build with the new system that has only 1 level of rogue. The choices on how to get there now are more limited. You can also hit some of those high-water marks without having to maximize the core ranks to 15.
If that is the case, then I think the Dev's failed to achieve what they were aiming for by raising the spot and search DC's, thus making the change pointless.

If the requirement for spot goes up, along with a 9 point skill cost increase, there will be a lot of MC rogues who's time and effort were wasted on thier current builds based on the exisiting system. I think it would be relativly easy to add a one time skill respec to acknolwedge that the skill point system is highly related to the enhancement system, and that making such drastic changes to one should co-inside with a respec of the other.
Then again, if we are asking for this so that MC rogues can put full ranks into their skills, maybe they did succeed.

Take open locks: given a 14 dex with items, taking +1 through enhancements, +11 item, +4 greater heroism, +2 for stat bonus, +6 for tools (+7 if you have +5 tools), you would get +24-25, leaving only 8-9 ranks needed to get +33 (53 DC lock assuming roll of 20).
I think Open lock, or even disable is a bad example, for three reasons. One, they lowered the DC's for those two. Two, there is a D20 roll involved and you can always push your luck. Three, there are the tools involved, which further skew things. (Personally, I think there should be a minumum number of ranks required in DD and OL to use tools, say 4 ranks for Masterwork, and go up from there. Thus a MC with full ranks can use the best tools, but a Batman with only 4 ranks loses +5 to their DD and OL). I think those three reasons are why they left the DC's where they were (barring the enhancement change).

I think the search and spot are going to be a lot harder for someone without max ranks to get, which is why they raised those.
For search (with a generous 18 Buffed Int), I see it as: +4 from Int, +11 from uber item, +1 through enhancement, +5 from HV (or other racial), and +4 from Greater Heroism. That only puts you at 25 seach. You'll need at least 9 ranks for the top end trap coverage. So, with all that you might be able to do the end stuff on normal, but elite would be out of your range.

Spot is even worse. With a 16 buffed wisdom: +3 from Wis, +11 item, +1 enhancement, and +4 Greater Heroism. No more HV, cause it's a boost. That's only 19 and the high water mark is around 34. You would definently need to be a lot closer to max ranks there. And as you said, if the traps go the way they should, you will want a rogue that can spot them before they kill you.

Let me know if I missed anything with my numbers.

eclipsechild
02-27-2007, 01:29 PM
Spot is even worse. With a 14 wisdom: +4 from Wis, +11 item, +1 enhancement, and +4 Greater Heroism. No more HV, cause it's a boost. That's only 20 and the high water mark is around 34. You would definently need to be a lot closer to max ranks there. And as you said, if the traps go the way they should, you will want a rogue that can spot them before they kill you.

Let me know if I missed anything with my numbers.

14 wisdom will give you +2

Strali
02-27-2007, 01:33 PM
I think the search and spot are going to be a lot harder for someone without max ranks to get, which is why they raised those. For search (with a generous 18 Buffed Int), I see it as: +4 from Int, +11 from uber item, +1 through enhancement, +5 from HV (or other racial), and +4 from Greater Heroism. That only puts you at 25 seach. You'll need at least 9 ranks for the top end trap coverage. So, with all that you might be able to do the end stuff on normal, but elite would be out of your range.

Spot is even worse. With a 14 wisdom: +4 from Wis, +11 item, +1 enhancement, and +4 Greater Heroism. No more HV, cause it's a boost. That's only 20 and the high water mark is around 34. You would definently need to be a lot closer to max ranks there. And as you said, if the traps go the way they should, you will want a rogue that can spot them before they kill you.

Let me know if I missed anything with my numbers.

I totally agree with you. Spot and Search are going to be a lot harder to hit especially if you're currently human or were planning a human MC, though the nerf to the other racial bonuses is almost as bad. Eg: Elvin search and spot. It still takes 25% of your enhancement points to get a +4/+3 bonus to search/spot as an elf, (can't max both at the same time at lvl 12), whereas before for 25% of your enhancement points you got a +6 bonus to search, spot, and listen if I remember correctly.

What we reallly need is some nice numbers off the Risia server on what the new highwater marks are. I wish the character data was a lot newer, since I'd be able to start getting that data myself. :(

eclipsechild
02-27-2007, 01:34 PM
For those who have played Risia, how is hide/movesilently working with the new enhancement system?

Strali
02-27-2007, 01:34 PM
14 wisdom will give you +2

I believe they are assuming a +4 item on top of the base 14 wisdom for a total stat bonus of +4.

negative
02-27-2007, 04:27 PM
I believe they are assuming a +4 item on top of the base 14 wisdom for a total stat bonus of +4.

No it was an error on my part. Maybe I'll edit the Wis to a starting of 12. 14 seems too high for a typical MC.

negative
02-27-2007, 04:43 PM
I totally agree with you. Spot and Search are going to be a lot harder to hit especially if you're currently human or were planning a human MC, though the nerf to the other racial bonuses is almost as bad. Eg: Elvin search and spot. It still takes 25% of your enhancement points to get a +4/+3 bonus to search/spot as an elf, (can't max both at the same time at lvl 12), whereas before for 25% of your enhancement points you got a +6 bonus to search, spot, and listen if I remember correctly.

What we reallly need is some nice numbers off the Risia server on what the new highwater marks are. I wish the character data was a lot newer, since I'd be able to start getting that data myself. :(

I'm not worried though. The point I was trying to make was, "now you have to invest full ranks in the rogue skills to be good on the top end traps". I don't see anything wrong with that. As long as you invest max ranks it looks like you should be ok with more or less effort. If someone hasn't put max ranks into the four core skills, I don't think they have a right to complain, they aren't a rogue and they shouldn't be messing with traps in the first place.;)

BelVic
02-28-2007, 05:57 PM
I'm not worried though. The point I was trying to make was, "now you have to invest full ranks in the rogue skills to be good on the top end traps". I don't see anything wrong with that. As long as you invest max ranks it looks like you should be ok with more or less effort. If someone hasn't put max ranks into the four core skills, I don't think they have a right to complain, they aren't a rogue and they shouldn't be messing with traps in the first place.;)

Are you sure that you need all 4 skills max out ? My WF battlemage have nothing in spot because he likes this picture.

http://www.ddo1liners.co.uk/archives/021.htm

negative
02-28-2007, 06:00 PM
Are you sure that you need all 4 skills max out ? My WF battlemage have nothing in spot because he likes this picture.

http://www.ddo1liners.co.uk/archives/021.htm

makes me think more of this one:

http://www.ddo1liners.co.uk/archives/113.htm

Dirac
03-12-2007, 02:05 PM
I can confirm the following for the first two trap boxes in HiPS elite.

Spot 31 (30 fail, 31 success)
Search 32 (31 fail, 32 success)
Disable 39-41 (38 fail, 41 success)

This confirms the general trend of spot and search up. Here, the disable check is down by at least 4.

cforce
03-13-2007, 08:09 AM
Guide is updated with new knowledge (as well as a lot of unknowns) for 3.3. What we really need is folks sampling and reporting DCs for:

VoN *4*
Chains of Flame

That'll at least get us updates to the previous high-water marks. Beyond that, any/all level 12 quests will be helpful.

Thanks to all those contributing data!

Bloodhaven
03-13-2007, 02:07 PM
I can confirm the following for the first two trap boxes in HiPS elite.

Spot 31 (30 fail, 31 success)
Search 32 (31 fail, 32 success)
Disable 39-41 (38 fail, 41 success)

This confirms the general trend of spot and search up. Here, the disable check is down by at least 4.

I just confirmed these numbers

DD on Hips Elite is 40
Crit fail is 35
Fail 36-39

Impaqt
03-13-2007, 02:25 PM
I wish the VOn 5 Traps werent so hard to test.... Just finished a Dragon Run Sunday so Maybe I'll be able to get in there by the weekend to check em out...

My Buld WInds up with OL:51 DD:50 Spot:33 Search:36 (DD/OL Boosted +4) and SPot/Searc AUgmented with GH Only..... So I should stil be safe on all Traps according to the numbers we see here so far.

Strali
03-13-2007, 02:32 PM
Wizard King Elite
Blade traps in hallways
Search 31- fail (Can't find boxes)
Search 33 - Control boxes found.

cforce
03-13-2007, 04:06 PM
I wish the VOn 5 Traps werent so hard to test.... Just finished a Dragon Run Sunday so Maybe I'll be able to get in there by the weekend to check em out...


Just a note -- it seems like a number of folks are trying to get the VoN 5 data, but it was actually VoN 4 that had the highest confirmed DC's before the patch, not VoN 5. (VoN 5 might have some high ones also, but that was not the quest used to set the previous high-water mark.)

negative
03-14-2007, 10:12 AM
Saw this in another thread, thought it was worth mentioning:

http://www.ddo.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1017146&postcount=15

I did Chains of the Flame on elite with my 10 rogue/2 ranger drow. Even with my +10 spot ring on (total 34), I could not see the traps in the quest.

If accurate, the high water mark for spot is 35+, which seems, really high. You'd have to be elf or have skill focus: spot on pretty much any build to get that high (unless you have a reliable source of greater heroism), as spot is wisdom based.

I think Greater Heroism is going to become a mandatory cast on the rogues. Personally, I would prefer to be self-sufficient, you never know who is going to be in your party. Might have to steal a planer grid from a guildie.

Impaqt
03-14-2007, 10:58 AM
If thisi s true then The Spot Requirement is just rediclously high..... Come on.. No one is gonna use Boosts for "Spot" Rogues dont get a lot of wisdom and this actually Encourages MC's because your gonna need wisdom to reliable spot something....

0 10 Base Wisdom
15 Ranks
10 Spot Item
4 GH
2 +2 Wisdom From Owls or Item
3 Spot Feat (Whata waste it used to be....)
3 Spot enhancements
--------
37

:eek:

i guess its doable.. But right now I'm topping at 33 on my Rogue build.... Without the Feat and only +2 Spot in enhancements.....

negative
03-14-2007, 05:39 PM
The only other thing I can say is keep in mind, these quests are above our level on elite. Sure we should be able to finish the quest, but should be have 100% sucess with the traps? I know the point of this post is to answer "yes" to that question, but maybe turbine is trying to push us away from that. I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. I'm going to give it a few weeks before I pass final judgement.

Rason
03-14-2007, 05:51 PM
If thisi s true then The Spot Requirement is just rediclously high..... Come on.. No one is gonna use Boosts for "Spot" Rogues dont get a lot of wisdom and this actually Encourages MC's because your gonna need wisdom to reliable spot something....

0 10 Base Wisdom
15 Ranks
10 Spot Item
4 GH
2 +2 Wisdom From Owls or Item
3 Spot Feat (Whata waste it used to be....)
3 Spot enhancements
--------
37

:eek:

i guess its doable.. But right now I'm topping at 33 on my Rogue build.... Without the Feat and only +2 Spot in enhancements.....

My thoughts here would be instead of relying on the rogue to find the trap and detrap it.. why not use a Ranger (pure or if wanted, MC, if you go that way) to search the traps out since its a class skill for them and they derive their spells from wisdom.

Just a thought from my PnP background since D&D is meant to be party based, so why not split the tasks up between them, even on something like this?

negative
03-14-2007, 08:41 PM
My thoughts here would be instead of relying on the rogue to find the trap and detrap it.. why not use a Ranger (pure or if wanted, MC, if you go that way) to search the traps out since its a class skill for them and they derive their spells from wisdom.

Just a thought from my PnP background since D&D is meant to be party based, so why not split the tasks up between them, even on something like this?

Ranger would seem a viable option for spot at least, if you can find one that has maxed the skill, I know mine didn't cause of to many other skills to get. To be honest, I think it is asking a lot for a rogue to rely on another class, a single specific one at that. What happens when you don't have a ranger in the party? The rogue needs to be able to perform their job without outside assistance unless you are playing in a static group or something similar.

As far as search, disable, and open lock though, you'll need someone with at least one level of rogue for the trapfinding feat and to get the other two skills as a class skill.

Tygre
03-14-2007, 11:51 PM
...if we could compile a list of known traps and their spot/search/dd (or locks and their OL)... but a list that is not only per quest, but per trap.

For example:
The right path in Von4:
the spike pit trap spot/search/dd is xx/xx/xx
the flame room lever trap: the front box is xx/xx/xx
the flame room lever trap: the side box is xx/xx/xx
The left path in Von4:...

this would allow for the community to talk more clearly about the various targets to reach.

Tygre

Riddikulus
03-15-2007, 06:37 AM
...if we could compile a list of known traps and their spot/search/dd (or locks and their OL)... but a list that is not only per quest, but per trap.

For example:
The right path in Von4:
the spike pit trap spot/search/dd is xx/xx/xx
the flame room lever trap: the front box is xx/xx/xx
the flame room lever trap: the side box is xx/xx/xx
The left path in Von4:...

this would allow for the community to talk more clearly about the various targets to reach.

Tygre
Sure. It's easier said than done though.

Try determining the values for any one of those and you'll see what I mean. It's not a precise science.

negative
03-15-2007, 08:37 AM
...if we could compile a list of known traps and their spot/search/dd (or locks and their OL)... but a list that is not only per quest, but per trap.

For example:
The right path in Von4:
the spike pit trap spot/search/dd is xx/xx/xx
the flame room lever trap: the front box is xx/xx/xx
the flame room lever trap: the side box is xx/xx/xx
The left path in Von4:...

this would allow for the community to talk more clearly about the various targets to reach.

Tygre

It not needed for 90% of the quests, and it would be a ton of work. For all the quests which have their DC's automatically set, my experiance and intuition is that all traps in the quest have the same DC's.

It is only in the few, rare quests where the DC's are manual set that they might vary from trap to trap. And as far as I know, all those values are still the same as they were pre-Mod 3.3.

Parallaxx
03-15-2007, 10:01 AM
I ran von4 elite, for the trap in the shine I was buffed to a modifier of +44 or +46, but I'm fairly sure I had it at max (didn't do a screen capture). I failed on a 6 and a 7. So it seems like it's still at least DC 53+.

tr0tsky
03-15-2007, 10:47 AM
...if we could compile a list of known traps and their spot/search/dd (or locks and their OL)... but a list that is not only per quest, but per trap.


You mean like...

DDOWiki Traps and Locks (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/DDO_information_project/Traps_and_locks)?

Hasn't been updated in a while, I'm sure, but it's there.

It's really not hard to determine the level of a trap (little harder for a lock, but not really).

Success means the DC is at most equal to your modified roll. (DC <= Roll)
Failure means the DC is between 1 and 4 higher than your roll for traps, and at least 1 higher for locks (Roll +1 <= DC <= Roll + 4 for traps, DC > Roll for Locks)
Critical Failure (Trap Only) means the DC is at least 5 higher than your roll. (DC >= Roll + 5)

tihocan
03-15-2007, 10:59 AM
You mean like...

DDOWiki Traps and Locks (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/DDO_information_project/Traps_and_locks)?

Hasn't been updated in a while, I'm sure, but it's there.
Unfortunately it's all outdated now they changed the large majority of DCs :(

tr0tsky
03-15-2007, 11:16 AM
Unfortunately it's all outdated now they changed the large majority of DCs :(

Hrm...regardless of that, the page *is* there and can be updated/edited. Kind of a pain that all the DCs got changed, but it had to happen with a reworking of the enhancement system.

Minibos
03-15-2007, 02:09 PM
Did chains on elite last night - ranger/rogue friend couldn't search the trap box just beyond the flame traps on the curving stairway with a 35 search, hit skill boost and found it. Seems a 36 spot may be the the highest DC as he found others without the skill boost. Didn't critical fail on a trap that he rolled a 1 with +42 to DD, disabled with a 9, however.

negative
03-15-2007, 03:57 PM
Did chains on elite last night - ranger/rogue friend couldn't search the trap box just beyond the flame traps on the curving stairway with a 35 search, hit skill boost and found it. Seems a 36 spot may be the the highest DC as he found others without the skill boost. Didn't critical fail on a trap that he rolled a 1 with +42 to DD, disabled with a 9, however.

are you talking about spot, search, or both? The post is somewhat confusing.

Hironin
03-15-2007, 07:16 PM
I completed The Enemy Within in House J on Elite (lvl 13 quest) a couple nights ago. I'm not sure what Spot is to be alerted to the secret room with the chest in it, but when I used Search to activate the door, a 34 Search was insufficient. I used a stat boost wand to up my Search to 35 and opened the door.

I had no difficulty finding the cleaver trap boxes there, but was totally unable to Spot or Search out the trap boxes at the bottom of the pit traps, if boxes even exist for those traps (this was my first time in that dungeon).

Hironin

Rason
03-15-2007, 10:02 PM
Ranger would seem a viable option for spot at least, if you can find one that has maxed the skill, I know mine didn't cause of to many other skills to get. To be honest, I think it is asking a lot for a rogue to rely on another class, a single specific one at that. What happens when you don't have a ranger in the party? The rogue needs to be able to perform their job without outside assistance unless you are playing in a static group or something similar.

As far as search, disable, and open lock though, you'll need someone with at least one level of rogue for the trapfinding feat and to get the other two skills as a class skill.

Easy answer to that: Find Traps spell, either by cleric or maybe a wand? I don't know if its on wands.. but its an idea :) I hope thats what Find Traps does..

Thanatos
03-16-2007, 04:16 AM
Easy answer to that: Find Traps spell, either by cleric or maybe a wand? I don't know if its on wands.. but its an idea :) I hope thats what Find Traps does..
Any spell 4th level or lower could be on a wand, but Turbine didn't put most of them in the game. I'm not sure that there's even a place to buy Find Traps scrolls, although I have looted them.

Rydlic
03-16-2007, 07:41 AM
Any spell 4th level or lower could be on a wand, but Turbine didn't put most of them in the game. I'm not sure that there's even a place to buy Find Traps scrolls, although I have looted them.

Scrolls are in the market place tent, it's an arcane spell as well, and also in the Portable Hole

negative
03-16-2007, 09:13 AM
Easy answer to that: Find Traps spell, either by cleric or maybe a wand? I don't know if its on wands.. but its an idea :) I hope thats what Find Traps does..
That replaces the "Search" skill, my post was about the "Spot" skill. As far as I know, the Find Traps spell *could* be useful to replace the Search skill (I'll have to check the specifics of the post), but not the Spot Danger skill/message. I'm pretty sure even a 30 Wis Cleric can't find the trap boxes with the DC's we are talking about, but I'm not familiar with exactly how the spell works. The good news is, the Search skill is not as big of an issue for most rogues (higher INT), but it is still cutting it close with the new patch.

What concerns me for spot is this. Per the previous post I linked, the high water mark is 36+ aparently. To break it down somewhat generously for a rogue with a buffed 16 wis (which is maybe higher than most):

+15 (15 ranks)
+3 (Tier 3 enhancement - not everyone has 12 rogue levels)
+3 (buffed 16 wisdom)
+10 (top end item)
= +31 Spot

So, even if you take Skill Focus: Spot, you are only at +34. You would still need some type of Heroism. Heck, if you don't have SF: Spot, even with Greater Heroism you only would be at +35. Which is good, but starting to sound like it's not enough.

This is what concerns me for both pure and MC rogues. Thankfully, you can always use evasion to spot traps, but it makes finding boxes harder if you don't already know their location. Bottom line is, to spot effectively in elite missions, a rogue will need outside help, I'm not thrilled about that, but I'm sure I'll get over it.


Scrolls are in the market place tent, it's an arcane spell as well, and also in the Portable Hole

This is incorrect. Only up to level 2 scrolls are in the tent, the rest are in the houses. I forget what level find traps is. Plus a cast of a scroll would never work in a elite mission. There is just no way, the caster level would be too low.

Finally, the spell is not an arcane spell, only divine, so it would not be in the Portable Hole.

cforce
03-16-2007, 09:14 AM
Hey folks -- thanks for all the data so far. We're honing in on the high water marks. And, hoo boy. They're high. Keep the data coming, and we'll try and nail them down exactly.

Parallaxx
03-16-2007, 09:24 AM
Find traps is not very useful for replacing search. It adds caster level / 2 to the search skill. On a scroll at minimum level it would be nearly useless, as a level 2 spell it would be 3/2 = 1. As a cleric multi class I can get 4 points out of it, but my search without it has been good enough for von 4 elite.

As for spot I just use a barbarian, they're very good at spotting traps. Just look for the box near their soul stone.

negative
03-16-2007, 11:32 AM
Find traps is not very useful for replacing search. It adds caster level / 2 to the search skill. On a scroll at minimum level it would be nearly useless, as a level 2 spell it would be 3/2 = 1. As a cleric multi class I can get 4 points out of it, but my search without it has been good enough for von 4 elite.

As for spot I just use a barbarian, they're very good at spotting traps. Just look for the box near their soul stone.

Ddoes it stack with items, enhancements, buff, greater hero? If so, it could be useful to push yourself up an extra +2 if ever needed. If it doesn't, yah, it's trash.

Aspenor
03-16-2007, 11:37 AM
As far as I know find traps scrolls are not available.

Mirra
03-16-2007, 07:38 PM
They're available at the marketplace tent Divine Scrolls vendor, up next to the cure mod wands.

Gives a +1 insight bonus (level 3, 3/2 = 1), but that stacks with everything I've found so far, so my rogue with what I consider borderline search skills (32 without buffs) carries a few of those along. :)

knalty
03-20-2007, 02:26 AM
Word of note: the thread listing the path of least resistance to obtain Free Agent Thieves' Tools has been deep-sixed. Somebody may want to recreate said thread, or include it into this one, to prevent further threadloss.

Strykersz
03-20-2007, 10:44 AM
Found a pair of +13 spot gloves in BAM elite over the weekend, there are probably +13 search items as well.

Tanka
03-20-2007, 11:23 AM
Found a pair of +13 spot gloves in BAM elite over the weekend, there are probably +13 search items as well.
Those probably won't be reproduced until either another +1 loot weekend or when the level cap goes up.

Mirra
03-20-2007, 12:44 PM
+13 skill items are level 11 required, race-restricted something, so they would still drop. Guild had a handful (gloveful) before loot week started.

Tanka
03-20-2007, 12:47 PM
+13 skill items are level 11 required, race-restricted something, so they would still drop. Guild had a handful (gloveful) before loot week started.
"Probably" being key. They'll be rare.

binnsr
03-21-2007, 10:09 AM
Values that are unknown/not confirmed are listed in yellow.

Search: 38-41 / >49 skill???

Before 3.3, highest secret door DC is in VoN 4, has been reported as >45 DC on Elite. Assuming that's been bumped up, and using a guess of 49 for the moment.
Highest known trap Search DCs: between 36 and 41 in chains of Flame, and between 38-39 in Twilight Forge, putting the high water mark somewhere between 38 and 41.


StormLords and GiantSlayers Inc. did the Twilight Forge on Elite during the last +loot/+XP weekend on Tharashk with 4 rogues. The box for the first trap (the one with the blades after you clear the first ogre-cannon-gauntlet) couldn't be found by the rogue with a boosted 38 search, but I was able to find it when I used my boost to get to a 41 search, putting it somewhere between 38 and 41. We didn't have a problem with the other trap boxes, putting their search DCs somewhere below 38.

Zanker
03-21-2007, 12:16 PM
What happen to racial bonus section on this guide?

Cambo
03-21-2007, 05:41 PM
StormLords and GiantSlayers Inc. did the Twilight Forge on Elite during the last +loot/+XP weekend on Tharashk with 4 rogues. The box for the first trap (the one with the blades after you clear the first ogre-cannon-gauntlet) couldn't be found by the rogue with a boosted 38 search, but I was able to find it when I used my boost to get to a 41 search, putting it somewhere between 38 and 41. We didn't have a problem with the other trap boxes, putting their search DCs somewhere below 38.


41 Search.....What The ???

15 SKill
+11 Item
+ 4 18 (Char) sorry meant INT
+ 3 Enhancement
+ 4 G.Heroism
+ 1 Find Traps Scroll
+ 1 Gloves/Luck Boost
=38

Looks Like I need a feat ? or a Bard

Ziggy
03-21-2007, 05:45 PM
41 Search.....What The ???

15 SKill
+11 Item
+ 4 18 Char
+ 3 Enhancement
+ 4 G.Heroism
+ 1 Find Traps Scroll
+ 1 Gloves/Luck Boost
=38

Looks Like I need a feat ? or a Bard

You are missing the boost.

he said "boosted to 41"

binnsr
03-21-2007, 06:03 PM
41 Search.....What The ???

15 SKill
+11 Item
+ 4 18 Char
+ 3 Enhancement
+ 4 G.Heroism
+ 1 Find Traps Scroll
+ 1 Gloves/Luck Boost
=38

Looks Like I need a feat ? or a Bard


Actually, my breakdown was:
15 ranks
6 Int
4 enhancement (2 each drow/rogue)
2 inate (i'm a drow)
10 goggles
4 boost
= 41 (I completely forgot to put read the heroism scroll before boosting even though one of the other rogues was already shouting for a greater heroism buff)

Cambo
03-21-2007, 06:42 PM
You are missing the boost.
he said "boosted to 41"

Ahhhh I dont want to use boost...........I hate boost....

Before the Patch I didnt have the Perception enhancement or boost and things were good.

Now I need to spend all my Ehhancment points on search, spot, boost, Disable traps and open lock...ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Oh well now to pick the enhancments I really want........
Rogue:"What trap???"
Party: "But arent you a rogue ?"
Rogue: "No....i'm an assasin" (Rogue version of a Fleric)

Tygre
03-21-2007, 08:13 PM
Post mod3.3 I have aquired a seletion of search and spot items which allow me to boost my search/spot in increments of 1. Data posted below was taken post 3.3, but needs to be independently certified.

DQ1: Water Blade Trap: 33/34/<55 (spot/search/DD)
*note: due to vagarities in how spot works with positioning, some Spot data needs multiple certification, although the above numbers are the result of multiple trials.
Poison Trap (past scorpion pit): 33/34/??, inadiquitly tested
Secret doors (water and monkey): search 28

BAM: Hallway traps: 30/31/?? (spot/search/dd)

Twilight Forge: (needs retesting)
Locked Chest: DC 50 OL..........................This data is due to bug mentioned below
Blade Trap: >46 Spot, Search 40, DD<= 46
Lightning Traps: >46 Spot, Search ?? (40?), DD <=41
Water Secret Wall: 17<Spot DC<=21, Search<=28
Retested on Normal: (bug seems to have ignored me this time)
Locked Chest: DC50 Open Lock
Blade Trap: spot/search/DD : 25/26/ <=43
Lightning Traps: 25/26/ <=41 (a 27 dd failed so the actual DD is from 28, 29, 30 or 31)

***IMPORTANT NOTE: I could NOT 'see' the lightning traps with a spot of 46, however I *could* 'see' them with a spot of 40 :eek: AND a casting of Detect Traps via scroll. If the Detect Traps spell allows a auto spot, that's just messed up.... but this needs testing.
***FOLLOW-UP NOTE: There seems to be a bug with the use of Find Traps Scrolls... my spot and search ability went bizarre after usage (couldn't find traps with a spot/search of 45 which I had earlier (not 5 min before.. before scroll) found with a 26 spot... then used a scroll again and search found the trap with a 40... sigh
Tygre
Thrashak

slimywarts
03-23-2007, 10:20 AM
Gwylan's Elite, the trap box at the bottom of the stairs (you know the one):

Spot of 22: couldn't spot it. Highest I could get to as a 6/2 Bard/Rogue.

Search of 24: found box
Search of 22: couldn't find

So either a 23 or 24 DC for Search, and something higher than 22 for a Spot; I conjecture probably a 25.

Trixity
03-23-2007, 10:23 AM
After reading this I actually respect Turbine a little bit more for how they are handling thieving challenges.

In beta the big discussion was how to make the game fun for the min/maxers while allowing the casual players to have fun also. I think that this guide is a prime example that they have succeeded.

For normal based missions you can get away with non maxed rogues and Rogue1/Whatever Class. But when you are going for the biggest challenges in the game, you have to have a min/maxed Higher level rogue.

If you want the big loot, go for the top o the line rogue.

negative
03-23-2007, 01:01 PM
If you want the big loot, go for the top o the line rogue.

Traps are not the be all end all of being a rogue though. To get the higher level traps, you don't just have to min/max, you have to min/max specifically on your trap skills and sacrafice everything else, including combat ability (as far as feats and enhancements and stats are concerned). You also still need the rest of your party backing you up with buffs.

I don't think that is something they should be aiming for. The whole thing is compounded by the fact that there is no roll for search. It's either "do, or do not". It has nothing to do with min/maxing. It have everything to do with only allowing 1 or 2 builds to be viable for endgame traps.

Sani_Medicor
03-23-2007, 02:27 PM
For normal based missions you can get away with non maxed rogues and Rogue1/Whatever Class.
An elven ranger with one level of rogue can compete with a pure rogue easily.

Xyfiel
03-23-2007, 07:27 PM
Ran Chains of flame elite last night with my rogue2/wiz8. First time I handled rogue skills in there and 3rd time total so can't say how I did overall. Self buffed I am running with 31 spot, 36 search, 41 dd. No dd failures, the wizard had to give me gh when I was having a problem with search so I ran with a 38 half the time. I remember not having the right goggles on a time or two so don't use my search for anything definitive. We were a bit lower level and unfamiliar with the quest so was going slow and I don't recall everything.

Now for the one thing I do know, when we got to the chest behind the gate, they thought you needed a key and moved on. I stayed behind to try my luck. Determined to succeed I buffed up and tried about 10 times with a 17 high roll. Total was 17+35=52. I was using +3(5) tools and was running out of boosts so changed to my +5(7) tools. Rolled a 20 first try, 20+37=57 success.

In conclusion COF elite open lock is between 53-57.

binnsr
03-28-2007, 01:35 PM
Confirmed last night that the DC for the secret door to the shrine room in VoN4 has definately been raised from 45. I was in there last night with a 45 search (15 ranks +6int +2drow +4enhancement +11ring +4AB +1prayer +2heroism) and couldn't find it.
We did not have any way of getting it higher as we did not have any arcanes (or planar grids) in the party and I neglected to bring any greater heroism scrolls with me.

We have a couple of guildies who need to do VoN3 and VoN4 who weren't on last night, so I'll see if I can hit it with Greater Heroism in the next couple of days.

Kyrien
03-28-2007, 08:09 PM
Hey, cforce.

I don't know if you think something like this would be useful, but I basically made a separate list for each skill showing exactly what can go into your total mod. The purpose is to give people a template that they can copy and paste into Notebook or whatever. From there they can remove or modify lines to reflect their projected build and equipment.

Disable Device (48-51 HWM)
02 02 FEAT: Nimble Fingers
05 03 FEAT: Skill Focus: Disable Device
09 04 ENHANCEMENT: Rogue Disable Device IV (Rog12)
11 02 BUFF: Inspire Confidence
15 04 BUFF: Greater Heroism
28 13 ITEM: Disable Device +13 Item
30 02 ITEM: Staff of Arcane Power
37 07 ITEM: +5 Thieves' Tools
54 17 RANKS (Rog1)
64 10 STAT: Intelligence (20 +2 enh +6 item +2 tome=30) (Hum14)
69 05 BOOST: 20 Second Rogue/Ranger/Human Boost IV (Rog/Rng/Hum10)

Open Lock (29+ HWM)
02 02 FEAT: Nimble Fingers
05 03 FEAT: Skill Focus: Open Lock
09 04 ENHANCEMENT: Rogue Open Lock IV (Rog12)
11 02 BUFF: Inspire Confidence
15 04 BUFF: Greater Heroism
28 13 ITEM: Open Lock +13 Item
30 02 ITEM: Staff of Arcane Power
37 07 ITEM: +5 Thieves' Tools
54 17 RANKS (Rog1)
67 13 STAT: Dexterity (20 +3 lvl +5 enh +6 item +2 tome=36) (Rog10, Elf8)
72 05 BOOST: 20 Second Rogue/Ranger/Human Boost IV (Rog/Rng/Hum10)

Search (39-41 Traps, 49+ Doors HWM)
02 02 RACE: Elf/Dwarf (Elf/Dwf1)
05 03 FEAT: Skill Focus: Search
09 04 ENHANCEMENT: Rogue Search IV (Rog12)
13 04 ENHANCEMENT: Elven/Kundarak Perception IV (Elf12/Dwf12)
15 02 BUFF: Inspire Confidence
19 04 BUFF: Greater Heroism
32 13 ITEM: Search +13 Item
34 02 ITEM: Staff of Arcane Power
51 17 RANKS
61 10 STAT: Intelligence (20 +2 enh +6 item +2 tome=30) (Hum14)
66 05 BOOST: 20 Second Rogue/Ranger/Human Boost IV (Rog/Rng/Hum10)

Spot (36 HWM)
02 02 RACE: Elf (Elf1)
04 02 FEAT: Alertness
07 03 FEAT: Skill Focus: Spot
11 04 ENHANCEMENT: Rogue Spot IV (Rog12)
15 04 ENHANCEMENT: Elven Keen Eyes IV (Elf12)
17 02 BUFF: Inspire Confidence
21 04 BUFF: Greater Heroism
34 13 ITEM: Spot +13 Item
36 02 ITEM: Staff of Arcane Power
53 17 RANKS
61 08 STAT: Wisdom (18 +6 item +2 tome=26)
66 05 BOOST: 20 Second Rogue/Ranger/Human Boost IV (Rog/Rng/Hum10)

The minimum build requirement is in parenthesis where appropriate.

negative
03-29-2007, 09:13 AM
Actually, that would make an extremely usefull program if done right. Have separate drop down menus for each one of those categories will all the possible choices and pick your INT, stat item, tools, buffs, etc and it calculates your max modifier and compares it to the current high water mark and the absolute maximum. Or even just a nice excel sheet would be cool.

That said, I don't think Inspire Confidence and Greater Heroism stack do they (I could be wrong, I'd like to be wrong)? Also, is the Staff of Arcane Power a +2 luck bonus? Also, a Human will only ever get a +1 enhancement bonus for INT because of the way they are making Human Adaptiblity work. Plus a Human can only start with 18 INT. So for a Human, the max would only be 27, not 30 due to the enhancement and starting stat. A Drow could get up to 28 with a starting of 20, +6 item, and +2 tome.

Also, I would not include boost for Spot, since it's impossible to accurately use boost to spot a trap if you don't know it's coming. I guess it could help if you were boosting to find exactly where the box is, since the warning is ussually centered around the box, but it still seems weird.

cforce
03-29-2007, 11:02 AM
Interesting idea, Kyrien. It's probably more useful to consolidate the information by skill as you've done, as opposed to by category, which is what I originally did. When I have more time, I may restructure that section along the lines you've laid out. Thanks for the input!

binnsr
03-29-2007, 11:21 AM
Actually, that would make an extremely usefull program if done right. Have separate drop down menus for each one of those categories will all the possible choices and pick your INT, stat item, tools, buffs, etc and it calculates your max modifier and compares it to the current high water mark and the absolute maximum. Or even just a nice excel sheet would be cool.



hmm... like this?
http://tinyurl.com/2wwrpe (http://www.jedi.net/%7Ebinns/dndclient/build_template.xls)

I pulled in the enhancements and feats from Ron's character planner. Still a work in progress (and some of the links and what-not are a bit finicky)
The template is for an evasion paladin, but the skills section is the same regardless.. :)

negative
03-29-2007, 01:52 PM
hmm... like this?
http://tinyurl.com/2wwrpe

I pulled in the enhancements and feats from Ron's character planner. Still a work in progress (and some of the links and what-not are a bit finicky)
The template is for an evasion paladin, but the skills section is the same regardless.. :)

Interesting. That's a nice work in progress, and not just for the skills, but everything:D . And it looks like I was wrong about Inspire Confidence, I'll have to reevalute my own rogue to factor that in.

Edit: Further research has shown me that Inspire Confidence grants a +2 Competence bonus, Greater Heroism is a +4 Moral bonus and the two will stack. Both Prayer and the Rabbit Gloves are a +1 Luck bonus and do not stack.

What I think would add further usefullness to the list (both the excell file and the modified OP for this thread) would be to specify what type of bonus each of these sources is providing. ie:
Greater Heroism (Moral): +4
Inspire Confidence (Competence): +2
Skill Item (Enhancement): +X
Action Point (Feat): +X
etc.
Hopefully that won't make it too confusing.

binnsr
03-29-2007, 04:10 PM
I made some updates to the spreadsheet ..
- comments for type of bonus from buffs per your suggestion
- automatically fills in skill bonuses from feats other than skill focus (already did that)
- automatically fills in skill bonuses from inate racial bonuses

I think i knew that Inspire Confidence stacked with GH -- it's good hope that doesn't stack with the heroism line (easy way to remember that is they both have the initials GH :D) I'm not sure why I put that in that comment there.

Things I still want to do with this sheet are:
- populate the enhancement bonuses for stats from chosen enhancements
- calculate BAB automatically (it's a manual entry now)
- calculate skill bonuses from enhancements (this should be easy, I just haven't taken the time to do it)
- figure out a way to restrict entry based on race / classes chosen (without resorting to macros or VB)

In my working copy, I have ~15 sheets with builds (including my live-server characters) and the sheet is over 7MB because of all the duplicated data required for cell-validation.

also .. can you update your quote of my url with the tinyurl that I modified it to?

negative
03-29-2007, 04:47 PM
Updated the quote with the link. Checked out the new spreadsheet. I like the changes, they help a lot. I like the sheet in general. Some might not like it, but I think it has a sorta PnP style character sheet feel to it.

This is probably starting to get off-topic though. I think you should start a new thread for the spreadsheet if you are planning on improving it and releasing it for players to use. If you do, can you PM me a link to the thread so I can subscribe to it?

Back on topic, I played around with my rogue's enhancements last night (8 rogue / 2 pally / 2 fighter) and decided that I could drop my 3 tier's of the Open Lock enhancement (I have nimble fingers) and spend those points to grab 3 tiers of Action Boost: Skills, netting me an additional +4 boost to skills without losing any of my combat AP. I also picked up the Rabbit Gloves. This means my little Halfling Rogue with Greater Heroism and Inspire Compidence can hit something like 55 DD, 51 OL, 43 Search (not counting a find traps scroll), and 36 Spot (no boost on Spot). Now, you can't depend on having a Bard on every elite mission, so my spot is still too low for the high water mark.

It does make me feel better about the changes, because I'm hitting the Search high water mark without having to take a feat (I don't have SF: Search). And if my rogue with only 8 levels of rogue can do it, most others should be able to as well. It's just, not easy getting there, and if they ever decide to put in a lock with a massively higher DC (thinking 74+) I'd be in trouble and have to lose some of my combat AP's.

I am considering swapping Skill Focus: Disable Devise for SF: Spot though. I think that would maintain my DD high enough, and put my spot up hgih enough as well, but I'm not sure, I'm concerned about where the trap DC's are going to go with Mod 4 and the level cap raise, so I'm waiting for that before I burn a dragonshard.

Any speculation on what is going to happen to the high water marks with the level cap raise or is that too far off-topic?

binnsr
03-29-2007, 05:01 PM
I agree with the off-topicness. Sorry, cforce! I was thinking the same thing and already ginning up a post when you said that :)

Impaqt
03-29-2007, 05:12 PM
and 36 Spot (no boost on Spot). Now, you can't depend on having a Bard on every elite mission, so my spot is still too low for the high water mark.

Any speculation on what is going to happen to the high water marks with the level cap raise or is that too far off-topic?

What Spot check is over 36?

binnsr
03-29-2007, 05:20 PM
What Spot check is over 36?

I think he meant that he gets to a 36 spot *with* a bard Inspire Confidence buff. So, not having that puts him below the high-water mark of 36.

Impaqt
03-29-2007, 05:30 PM
I think he meant that he gets to a 36 spot *with* a bard Inspire Confidence buff. So, not having that puts him below the high-water mark of 36.

Whew... I think youre right.. I just re-enhanced my Build and was able to get to 36 without sacrificing and dragonshards..... next step would of been a respec.....

negative
03-29-2007, 06:17 PM
I think he meant that he gets to a 36 spot *with* a bard Inspire Confidence buff. So, not having that puts him below the high-water mark of 36.

Indeed.

Kyrien
03-29-2007, 07:51 PM
Actually, that would make an extremely usefull program if done right.

Exactly what I was thinking, at the very least a spreadsheet, but I don't have the skillz.


That said, I don't think Inspire Confidence and Greater Heroism stack do they (I could be wrong, I'd like to be wrong)? Also, is the Staff of Arcane Power a +2 luck bonus? Also, a Human will only ever get a +1 enhancement bonus for INT because of the way they are making Human Adaptiblity work. Plus a Human can only start with 18 INT. So for a Human, the max would only be 27, not 30 due to the enhancement and starting stat. A Drow could get up to 28 with a starting of 20, +6 item, and +2 tome.

IC/GH you clarified already. According to this (http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~delallea/ddo/enh/) humans will get Greater Human Adaptability at level 13 or 14 (I didn't bother to check which). As for Int yeah I definitely goofed that - 28 max Int is a good number for human or drow either one. It could be higher, but the assumption is that most rogues will put level-ups into Dex, and I wanted to be at least a little realistic. A Wiz Rogue could be right up there at 36 like dex.


Also, I would not include boost for Spot, since it's impossible to accurately use boost to spot a trap if you don't know it's coming. I guess it could help if you were boosting to find exactly where the box is, since the warning is ussually centered around the box, but it still seems weird.

Agreed. I just wanted to be as complete as possible to provide the basic template and let people subtract it themselves.

negative
03-30-2007, 10:08 AM
Exactly what I was thinking, at the very least a spreadsheet, but I don't have the skillz.
binnsr's already got the spreadsheet covered, don't worry about it:D

According to this (http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~delallea/ddo/enh/) humans will get Greater Human Adaptability at level 13 or 14 (I didn't bother to check which). As for Int yeah I definitely goofed that - 28 max Int is a good number for human or drow either one. It could be higher, but the assumption is that most rogues will put level-ups into Dex, and I wanted to be at least a little realistic. A Wiz Rogue could be right up there at 36 like dex.

Your still not reading the Human Adaptablility thing correctly though. At level 13/14 (whichever it is) you'll get to pick a second, but different, stat to add +1 to. You can get +1 INT and +1 DEX, but you will not be able to get +2 INT.

As for a Wiz/ Rog, it breaks down like this:

Drow: 20 base + 3 enhancement + 3 leveling + 2 tome + 6 item = 34 INT
Human: 18 base + 3 enhancement + 1 human enhancement + 3 leveling + 2 tome +2 item = 33 INT

Tygre
04-04-2007, 01:24 PM
traps:
Spot 33, Search 34, DD 42 (to disable, dd38 to not blow it up)
Found in: CoF elite, von5 elite
Place to look: Twilight Forge Elite
*info: von4 hard : spot22, search23, dd30 or 31 (probably 31 as per pattern)
von4 elite : spot27, search28, dd36
*working assumptions:
hard to elite : add +5 to spot/search/dd
search = spot +1
dd = spot +9

Total HWM:
Spot: 45 (von4 secret door)
search: 46 (von4 secret door)
dd: 46crit fail, 53success (von4 shrine traps)
so dd HWM is 51-53
OL: 53-54 (CoF locked chest and gate)

**note these values are confirmed post 3.3 without the use of Find Traps scrolls (which do seem to cause buggy behavior)

Impaqt
04-04-2007, 01:35 PM
traps:
Spot 33, Search 34, DD 42 (to disable, dd38 to not blow it up)
Found in: CoF elite, von5 elite
Place to look: Twilight Forge Elite
*info: von4 hard : spot22, search23, dd30 or 31 (probably 31 as per pattern)
von4 elite : spot27, search28, dd36
*working assumptions:
hard to elite : add +5 to spot/search/dd
search = spot +1
dd = spot +9

Total HWM:
Spot: 45 (von4 secret door)
search: 46 (von4 secret door)
dd: 46crit fail, 53success (von4 shrine traps)
so dd HWM is 51-53
OL: 53-54 (CoF locked chest and gate)

**note these values are confirmed post 3.3 without the use of Find Traps scrolls (which do seem to cause buggy behavior)


Hold up...... WHat hapened to CoF being a 36 Spot?

Spot/Search HWM need to be separated for "Secred Doors" and "Traps" as ANy good rogue will have a Detect Secret Door CLicky or wand.... Its WAY faster than searching for the damn thing.

Cambo
04-05-2007, 12:59 AM
With Random Doors/Traps on the horizon how will anyone ever have a 45 spot to find a door in the first place to know to use a clicky the next time?

Thinking the first time you run it you have the wiz cast the spell continiously so you can idetify it.......

Impaqt
04-05-2007, 01:02 AM
With Random Doors/Traps on the horizon how will anyone ever have a 45 spot to find a door in the first place to know to use a clicky the next time?

Thinking the first time you run it you have the wiz cast the spell continiously so you can idetify it.......


True Seeing Scrolls last like 11 Minutes...

Cambo
04-05-2007, 01:07 AM
True Seeing Scrolls last like 11 Minutes...

Cool, didn't know true seeing found doors...thanks for advice.
Never thought of using it as a buff for this sort of thing.

TheMoShow
04-05-2007, 03:44 AM
While it is petty, under your enhancements section, you forgot 2 enhancement lines that can be added. The Ranger Spot and Search enhancement line is the exact same as the Rogue, but is not shown. Just wanted to bring it to your attention.

Another question I have is have u tested the locks in Twilight Forge on elite for the first chest? Our guild is mostly hybrid rogues and we can rarely get it, wondering what kinda OL you need for that one. If its already been tested then i guess our question is already answered.

Aspenor
04-05-2007, 11:08 AM
Another question I have is have u tested the locks in Twilight Forge on elite for the first chest? Our guild is mostly hybrid rogues and we can rarely get it, wondering what kinda OL you need for that one. If its already been tested then i guess our question is already answered.

Can't remember but on elite the DC for the chest is like low to mid 50s? Hazarding a guess.

Rameses
04-08-2007, 04:26 PM
CForce, I recently ran Chains of Flame on Elite with my Rogue and had no problems spotting any of the traps with a 34 Spot.

Go to this thread for my Screen Shots and Skill break down.

My break down is post number #62
Chains of Flame Elite thread by Aspenor (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=96725&page=4)

I am, Rameses!

Tiblorian
04-08-2007, 08:38 PM
I have one comment. It would be better if we had trap searching high water marks since secret doors are easily found with a detect secret door clicky or wand, its less relevant than the actual trap DCs. There should at least be a note what the highest trap search dc is, if in addition to highest secret door dc.


Can't remember but on elite the DC for the chest is like low to mid 50s? Hazarding a guess.

Ill hazard a fairly sure geuss at 52-55ISH I know im at a +30 buffed mod on my rog/wiz and I [b]think[b] I failed on a 11 but got it on a 16

cforce
04-09-2007, 06:37 AM
I have one comment. It would be better if we had trap searching high water marks since secret doors are easily found with a detect secret door clicky or wand, its less relevant than the actual trap DCs. There should at least be a note what the highest trap search dc is, if in addition to highest secret door dc.


Er -- I do break it out that way. I guess I'm confused what you're asking for?



Ill hazard a fairly sure geuss at 52-55ISH I know im at a +30 buffed mod on my rog/wiz and I [b]think[b] I failed on a 11 but got it on a 16

Well, that's a step up from my shot-in-the-dark guess, so I'll put that in! Thanks, everyone who's been posting their experiences.

Tiblorian
04-09-2007, 09:02 AM
Ya I see it now and had before, must have been tired or worst when I posted,heh. 95% sure on the dc of the chest though.

Strali
04-13-2007, 10:08 AM
Did wiz king elite last night. I could spot the traps in the rooms where it tells you if it's hami or hafez etc you have to fight next, prior to Mod 4. I cannot spot them now with a 29 spot....

Did anyone else notice a change in DC's?

samho
04-15-2007, 07:19 PM
There's a locked chest in the Ruin of Gianthold just after you slain the Ancient Flayer. I have fail on a 43 to open it, and success on a 46, so maybe it's a DC 45 locked chest.

lostblade
04-15-2007, 09:15 PM
my lvl 12bard/1rogue with a 47 dd blow up almost every single trap in A cabla for one elite, even when i rolled a 8 , almost all the one time traps on the door require atleast over a 53, and under at 65, although i had no problem finding them with a 40 search, it was pretty embarrassing watching every one of them blow up in my face when i told them that i got all the traps

PS other then the sorcerer that left as soon as i blow up the first box, i would like to thank every one that sticked around even through i blow up have 60% of the traps in there. also the first fire trap was blow up on a 48, cause i rolled a 5 but i didn't put on my +4 int item and didnt' use my boost thinking it wouldn't have been this hard

samho
04-16-2007, 10:46 AM
Our rogue (I'm not running my arcane trickster at that time) just blow up a trap with 54+2 in Aurum Lair on elite... (dang, so I should better keep all my DD item up at my next time...)

Aspenor
04-16-2007, 01:47 PM
MUHHAHAHAHAHA YES!!!! Difficult traps!! Imperfect rogues (mine included)!!!! I love it!!!!

SCREW THE NON-EVASION LOSERS!!! lol jk

binnsr
04-16-2007, 04:21 PM
In a similar vein, there's a trap guarding a chest behind a secret door in Cabal of One that our two rogues couldn't find the box for last night (I think the highest of the two had a search of around 38).

I brought my rogue in after the quest and found it with a search of 47. The actual disable didn't present a problem (I have +48 including tools), but I don't recall my die roll..

Coldin
04-16-2007, 04:50 PM
In a similar vein, there's a trap guarding a chest behind a secret door in Cabal of One that our two rogues couldn't find the box for last night (I think the highest of the two had a search of around 38).

I brought my rogue in after the quest and found it with a search of 47. The actual disable didn't present a problem (I have +48 including tools), but I don't recall my die roll..

I was that other rogue. I was able to get up to 38 and still no luck. Didn't have rogue boosts, so no idea if I was close.

Should note that this was on normal.

lostblade
04-16-2007, 04:58 PM
if that was the box with the cool looking spike poking out from the side and when you unlock the box a new set of spikes spawn from the floor, i can tell u that i can't find it with a 42 search on normal and assume there was no box to it

binnsr
04-16-2007, 05:00 PM
Yep, that's the trap. I thought it was a pretty cool trap, personally :)

Starspawn
04-16-2007, 08:40 PM
In a similar vein, there's a trap guarding a chest behind a secret door in Cabal of One that our two rogues couldn't find the box for last night (I think the highest of the two had a search of around 38).

I brought my rogue in after the quest and found it with a search of 47. The actual disable didn't present a problem (I have +48 including tools), but I don't recall my die roll..
I'd like to know where the control box is. I felt bad that I couldn't find it with a 42 search on elite over the weekend.

Also, we tried to do Cabal of One on elite without disarming the traps just to see the new high water marks for the traps. I was not able to spot the traps with a 34 spot. My 42 search was able to locate them (with exception of the trapped chest above referenced). I have a 52 Disable and I failed but didn't blow on a 61 (roll of 9) and blew it up on a 54 and 56 (damn those strings of low rolls). So the disables are at least 62 for the first couple traps.

I admit it is embarrassing to blow up a box after all that time of never being able to fail, let alone fail by so much you actually blow the box. I mean, come on... 52 disable blowing up boxes. :eek:

Tiblorian
04-16-2007, 09:16 PM
I was that other rogue. I was able to get up to 38 and still no luck. Didn't have rogue boosts, so no idea if I was close.

Should note that this was on normal.

I wasn't able to with a 39 either(on normal!) so it must be fairly high. As to disarm dcs, im running around with 56 disable, and havent had any problems so far.

Coldin
04-16-2007, 09:52 PM
I'd like to know where the control box is. I felt bad that I couldn't find it with a 42 search on elite over the weekend.

Also, we tried to do Cabal of One on elite without disarming the traps just to see the new high water marks for the traps. I was not able to spot the traps with a 34 spot. My 42 search was able to locate them (with exception of the trapped chest above referenced). I have a 52 Disable and I failed but didn't blow on a 61 (roll of 9) and blew it up on a 54 and 56 (damn those strings of low rolls). So the disables are at least 62 for the first couple traps.

I admit it is embarrassing to blow up a box after all that time of never being able to fail, let alone fail by so much you actually blow the box. I mean, come on... 52 disable blowing up boxes. :eek:

I actually blew up a box too. Same quest as well. Just forgot to put on my DD goggles. I think I rolled a 3. Can't remember my disable score at the moment though. +10 DD makes a large difference.

binnsr
04-17-2007, 12:46 AM
I'd like to know where the control box is. I felt bad that I couldn't find it with a 42 search on elite over the weekend.

Also, we tried to do Cabal of One on elite without disarming the traps just to see the new high water marks for the traps. I was not able to spot the traps with a 34 spot. My 42 search was able to locate them (with exception of the trapped chest above referenced). I have a 52 Disable and I failed but didn't blow on a 61 (roll of 9) and blew it up on a 54 and 56 (damn those strings of low rolls). So the disables are at least 62 for the first couple traps.

I admit it is embarrassing to blow up a box after all that time of never being able to fail, let alone fail by so much you actually blow the box. I mean, come on... 52 disable blowing up boxes. :eek:

If your search is high enough (it looks like north of 40 but less than 47 on normal), you can search outside the trap itself and it'll show up. the box is in the back left corner, near the ground.

I'll try to talk the guildies into running it again so we can try to get a better idea of the actual mark on it.

Thrudh
04-17-2007, 11:47 PM
FYI - Couldn't spot any of the traps in Maze of Madness on elite

My spot skill was 33

Couldn't FIND any of the traps with a search skill of 36... used a wand of fox cunning, and managed to find them all with a search skill of 38...

So probably 38 search is the magic number for Maze of Madness...

Had no problems disarming... Rolled a 1 with a disable of 45 and still disarmed

Hironin
04-18-2007, 05:58 PM
Ran a Cry for Help on elite yesterday (lvl 13 quest +2 for elite = 15) in the Gianthold. Our rogue was unable to find any trap boxes whatsoever, even after getting help from our sorceror (greater heroism) and bard (inspire competence). He had a search of 43 during those buffed periods, and was unable to locate any trap control boxes.

I am relying on what he said his buffed search skill was of course. I was on my athletic build fighter at the time.

Talcyndl
04-19-2007, 04:20 PM
Ran a Cry for Help on elite yesterday (lvl 13 quest +2 for elite = 15) in the Gianthold. Our rogue was unable to find any trap boxes whatsoever, even after getting help from our sorceror (greater heroism) and bard (inspire competence). He had a search of 43 during those buffed periods, and was unable to locate any trap control boxes.

I am relying on what he said his buffed search skill was of course. I was on my athletic build fighter at the time.

If that's accurate, that's a tough level to hit.

Here's a breakdown for comparison sake of a level 13 rogue with good gear, reasonably good intel and 3 ranks of the search enhancement:

16 Ranks
13 Item
4 Intel bonus
3 Enhancements
4 Greater Hero.
2 Bard lovin - I think rogues may have to start making bard friends :)
----
42

Even adding in the extra possible enhancement point only gets you to 43 -which fails.

So I guess boost is needed for every box? Assuming you spot them - or more likely stumble into them. :eek:

prometheus303
04-19-2007, 10:01 PM
If that's accurate, that's a tough level to hit.

Here's a breakdown for comparison sake of a level 13 rogue with good gear, reasonably good intel and 3 ranks of the search enhancement:

16 Ranks
13 Item
4 Intel bonus
3 Enhancements
4 Greater Hero.
2 Bard lovin - I think rogues may have to start making bard friends :)
----
42

Even adding in the extra possible enhancement point only gets you to 43 -which fails.

So I guess boost is needed for every box? Assuming you spot them - or more likely stumble into them. :eek:

inspire competence does not stack with Heroism/Greater Heroism...just an FYI

prometheus303
04-19-2007, 10:14 PM
well from what i'm reading here, you pretty much have to totally min/max in order to get the traps in 'cabal of one'. Seeming how you miss out on the second end chest for NOT having the Hobgoblin disable the traps, it would seem kinda pointless to even try unless to test your rogueing abilities. Unless there is something that I didnt notice...With that said, are the other quests out in Gianthold Tor this hard to search/disable on elite? If not what would the high water mark be disregarding 'Cabal for One'??

samho
04-20-2007, 01:50 AM
Foundation of Discord seems also has some difficult trap. However, if I can go with such quest in the weekend with my arcane trickster(wiz/rog), I'll give it a try and see if I can get some value from those quest.

Coldin
04-22-2007, 12:47 AM
Ran Cabal for one on elite, without the guy deactivating the traps.

I'm pretty sure all the traps had exactly the same DCs. That's not counting the hidden room with the chest and traps. I couldn't get near high enough to spot or search that one.

The search/spot DCs were either 36 or 37. I'm thinking it was 36 though.

The disable DC though were crazy. I blew up about the first 3 boxes I tried to disable. I got those DCs pegged exactly at 60 though.

Basically, if you're wanting to disable these traps on elite with any constant success, you need all the buffs you can get, quite a few enhancements into DD, and +13 DD goggles wouldn't hurt either.

Needless to say, after running that, I felt pretty embarrassed as a self-proclaimed best trap disabler in all of Stormreach. :o

Xyfiel
04-22-2007, 05:02 AM
In Cabal for one on normal, the trap behind the secret door is 46 or 47 search.
I run with a normal buffed 45 and don't see it, a +2 boost does though. I expect to run it more today, and will try to get my spot high enough and pinpoint the search. I haven't tried the none chest method so can't help there. I will say I have run all the new quests on elite except cry for help and crucible, and have had no problems with a 39 spot/45 search.

Schmackdown
04-24-2007, 08:15 AM
inspire competence does not stack with Heroism/Greater Heroism...just an FYI
This is completely and utterly false... just an FYI.

Ghaldar
04-24-2007, 09:28 AM
Dragon Relic turn in. 20 relics you can chose the leather armor with the following stats: +4 leather armor, +10 to disable device, +7 spot, +3 relfex save. It also looks AWSOME. Thought I would post new loot stats to help data collection.

DrAwkward
04-24-2007, 02:45 PM
Is it worth considering the "alchemical" pots from the Deneith Ward?

Those should stack with everything else, and would be able to boost your skills by 2 or 3.

samho
04-26-2007, 08:17 PM
The numbers comes from a Rogue10 in my party and my wiz12/rog1, in Maze of Madness (aka Minotaur's Lair)...

(1)Normal trap can be detect with Search 28 or lower

(2)Hard trap need 30

(3)Elite trap can't be detect with Search 31, but fine with 42

and Search Door on normal can be detect with search 22 ( eer.. the number comes from my halfing pure wizard :p )

Cambo
04-28-2007, 07:15 AM
Blew up a trap box on elite 42+12....
Electrical trap before a door

The Spot and Search for Maze of madness on Elite is 36 and 37 respectivly from memory.

samho
04-28-2007, 11:07 AM
Anyone did the "A Cabal for One" and find the trap box for the secret door (with chest) in hard / elite ? Was wondering how much search it require.. (even I know I have no way to make it)

Yes, 47 was only enough for normal, not enough for hard there :p

Cambo
04-29-2007, 10:30 AM
Anyone did the "A Cabal for One" and find the trap box for the secret door (with chest) in hard / elite ? Was wondering how much search it require.. (even I know I have no way to make it)

Yes, 47 was only enough for normal, not enough for hard there :p

Guess we will need the ranger to cast on us

samho
04-29-2007, 11:08 AM
The locked door on the Planes of the Prisons has the DC on elite, between 50 to 51 (fail on the 20+29, success on a 12+39)

Tiblorian
04-29-2007, 08:17 PM
Door of elite prison of planes is DC 50, I can confirm it for sure. +39 open lock, 10 failure, 11 success.

Xyfiel
04-30-2007, 02:56 PM
Cabal secret door chest, couldn't see box on elite with 53 search. That was fully buffed with inspire, find traps scroll, boosted. If I can find a +15 search item I'll give it another go. I may be able to hit 57 with the right items and a +3 tome. I'll repost when that day happens.

binnsr
04-30-2007, 03:26 PM
Cabal secret door chest, couldn't see box on elite with 53 search. That was fully buffed with inspire, find traps scroll, boosted. If I can find a +15 search item I'll give it another go. I may be able to hit 57 with the right items and a +3 tome. I'll repost when that day happens.

Perhaps I'll respec for full searching and give it a go.. I should be able to hit 56 with my +11 ring if I go all-out on the search enhancements. (of course, if I could find someone on Tharashk with a +13 or +15 search item that they'd let me borrow, I could scale appropriately :))

Of course, that would mean dropping a bunch of enhancements I like for 3 days..

Cambo
04-30-2007, 08:51 PM
I have a WF only +15 search ring on Adar if someone needs to do some testing. As a halfling with no search feats taken i dont think I can get that high.

Lvl 14 .... 16
Enhance.. 4
Item...... 15
Intel...... 4...might get to +5 wit a tome soon
FoxSkill+2 2...only got 2 of these
GH......... 4
FfindTrap 1
Luck (cleric?) 2...not always available
Bard 2...not always one in the group
Total 50/51 in the best case scenario...........

Seems like you need to be a Drow to get a lot better.

Can't understand the reasoning behind having it that high to exclude a common rogue race...

Goldheart
05-01-2007, 01:09 PM
I thought I'd give a couple numbers you want to reach to be an adequate rogue in Dragon Ruin quests.

On elite, most quests - Maze of Madness, Cry for Help, Feast or Famine, ect. - have a spot difficulty of 35 or 36 (failure on 34, spot on 36) and a search difficulty of 38

Therefore, to be a decent rogue in the new content, you want
Spot: 36
Search: 38

I was running these with my rogue2/bard12. I kept greater heroism on as well as a owl's wisdom buff. If my owl's wisdom dropped I wasn't making the spot checks at 34 spot. I have now decided to buy mass owl's wisdom scrolls. Wanding myself every 2 minutes is a pain. The mass owl's scrolls last at least 10 minutes and benefit the entire party. They are UMD 40, but I'd rather fail a couple than wand every 2 minutes. Another 2 will save for party members that don't wear wisdom items isn't a bad thing anyway.

cforce
05-01-2007, 01:36 PM
Thanks to all who have submitted info. I've updated the guide based on the distilled high-water marks I've seen here (as well as made some neatening up edits). Let me know if I've missed a post that described a high-water mark higher than what I've got in the guide.

thanks!

Cambo
05-01-2007, 10:10 PM
If my owl's wisdom dropped I wasn't making the spot checks at 34 spot. I have now decided to buy mass owl's wisdom scrolls. Wanding myself every 2 minutes is a pain. The mass owl's scrolls last at least 10 minutes and benefit the entire party. They are UMD 40, but I'd rather fail a couple than wand every 2 minutes. Another 2 will save for party members that don't wear wisdom items isn't a bad thing anyway.

I found a cheap wisdom helm on the auction...4Kplat adn that works for me though I have to swap it for the cheap +4 int helm when I search and then the nightforge helm for fighting...

You could also give a couple of scolls to a caster to save the failures each time you group...

Cambo
05-01-2007, 10:28 PM
Cabal secret door chest, couldn't see box on elite with 53 search. That was fully buffed with inspire, find traps scroll, boosted. If I can find a +15 search item I'll give it another go. I may be able to hit 57 with the right items and a +3 tome. I'll repost when that day happens.

Do we know if there is a box ?
If so Cforce this seems not to be update with your update....

MrCow
05-01-2007, 11:08 PM
Couldn't FIND any of the traps with a search skill of 36... used a wand of fox cunning, and managed to find them all with a search skill of 38...

So probably 38 search is the magic number for Maze of Madness...

Went in there with my trap smasher and I found boxes in Maze of Madness with a search of 37. Didn't show on a 36, but I heard the glorious trap-finding sounds when I let a prayer clicky go to get to 37.

samho
05-01-2007, 11:54 PM
Do we know if there is a box ?
If so Cforce this seems not to be update with your update....

There IS a box.

You need 46 or 47 at normal to find it. 45 simply can't fit it.

But I don't have the number on Hard/Elite, until I got my hand on any search 15 ring (currently I have search 11 ring which can put me up to search 47 self buff/boost)

Impaqt
05-04-2007, 01:32 PM
Can we update the first post to reflect real Search Requirements.. Cabal Traps should be noted.. But as an exception because you can have the dude turn em off.....

ALso, the "Breaking it down" section is way out of date... and repetetive I guess....