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Khornelain
09-07-2020, 08:52 AM
I have read here and there that avoidance coming from incorporeal, dodge and concealment are somewhat reduced while in reaper, but I cannot find anywhere the actual numbers.

Does anybody know, found it, or tested it to shed some light upon it? I asume the reduction will increase as you increase in skulls, but would like to have a clue on it

Thanks,

- Khornelain

Marcb81
11-01-2020, 05:12 PM
I have read here and there that avoidance coming from incorporeal, dodge and concealment are somewhat reduced while in reaper, but I cannot find anywhere the actual numbers.

Does anybody know, found it, or tested it to shed some light upon it? I asume the reduction will increase as you increase in skulls, but would like to have a clue on it

Thanks,

- Khornelain

Any updates on this?

Mindos
11-01-2020, 10:09 PM
Just guessing here, but I don't think dodge gets reduced in reaper? It has a hard cap of 95 percent everywhere now I think .

Concealment and Incorp I would guess get reduced by 1.5 percent per skull. idk

Carpone
11-02-2020, 09:00 AM
If any of the DDO quants has painstakingly determined the numbers through many hours of trial and error, then they aren't sharing.

If effective HP were updated to reflect diminished benefit as skulls increased, it would be possible to reverse engineer the numbers. This was brought up last year when the reaper changes were made. TLDR: Sev doesn't want the players to know the formula.

J1NG
11-14-2020, 06:29 AM
This is late, but might be useful for some who are considering joining Reaper difficulty runs for the first time.

Concealment (Blur, Displace, etc)
Is reduced by a flat 5% on entering Reaper Difficulty, +5% per Reaper Skull, so Reaper 1 gets 10% flat concealment bypass. Reaper 2 gets 15% flat concealment bypass, etc.
So if you have anything equal or less than 10% Concealment, you basically have nothing on entering Reaper 1.
And by the time you reach Reaper 9, your Displacement (50%) equals nothing (9x5% = 45% + 5% = 50% ignored). Note, I am unsure (not tested) if there's an upper limit cap to the debuff, but it doesn't feel like it at the moment from tests done so far).

In short:
Dusk (10%) is dead on Reaper 1, you basically have 0%
Blur (20%) is dead on Reaper 3, you basically have 0%
Lesser Displacement (25%) is dead on Reaper 4, you basically have 0%
Displacement (50%) is dead on Reaper 9, you basically have 0%

Incorporeal
Is reduced by 5% per Reaper Skull. So by the time you reach Reaper 5, 25% Incorporeal is worthless.

In short:
Wraith Form (10% before buffs) is dead on Reaper 2, you basically have 0%
Wraith Form (15% with Enhanced form) is dead on Reaper 3, you basically have 0%
Wraith Form (20% with Core enhancement) is dead on Reaper 4, you basically have 0%
Wraith Form, Shadow Form, Shadow Veil, etc (25% Incorporeal) is dead on Reaper 5, you basically have 0%
Reborn in Light (50%) is dead at Reaper 10, much better, but this is a one time use only ability.

Dodge
Is not reduced on Reaper 1 through 10.

Anyone who is thinking Dodge needs to be nerfed. That's NOT what this shows. It shows that the Devs instead went ham with the debuff on players instead for Concealment and Incorporeal and that debuff needs to be reduced, and Dodge needs to be left alone.

You cannot cast Displace on others, so 25% (Lesser Displacement Item buff) is all you can get easily. This means that by Reaper 4, you have no Concealment defence, and any Incorporeal defence is also mostly gone (15% from Enhanced Incorporeal item buff). Those who can gain Incorporeal 25% (Shadow Fade with Ninja Spys and Wraith Forms) will still have 5% left, but if they don't have Displacement, they are in a very poor state and even then you only have 30% avoidance with Concealment. Remember, this is Reaper 4, not Reaper 8, by Reaper 8 even with Displacement you esentially only have 5%. This means that anyone wanting to be able to use Concealment in Reaper difficulty, once they hit Reaper 4 or higher, they NEED Displacement or they will effectively have nothing.

Remember that Rogues and (Especially) Monks, are effectively hamstrung even further because of their relaince on Dodge. If Dodge is nerfed, you basically make ALL Reaper 4+ onwards, CC, dps (ranged), and PRR/MRR. And that's just silly.

J1NG

Carpone
11-14-2020, 07:25 AM
Concealment (Blur, Displace, etc)
Is reduced by a flat 5% on entering Reaper Difficulty, +5% per Reaper Skull, so Reaper 1 gets 10% flat concealment bypass. Reaper 2 gets 15% flat concealment bypass, etc.

Incorporeal
Is reduced by 5% per Reaper Skull. So by the time you reach Reaper 5, 25% Incorporeal is worthless.
What is your testing methodology to determine these values? Linear deterioration to 0% seems odd when other systems are not (PRR, reaper healing, reaper damage penalties and reaper monster damage).

J1NG
11-14-2020, 07:50 AM
What is your testing methodology to determine these values? Linear deterioration to 0% seems odd when other systems are not (PRR, reaper healing, reaper damage penalties and reaper monster damage).

That's why I said it was bonkers what the Devs did to cripple players.

Testing toons:

1. Palemaster in Wraith Form (various Form enhancements 10%, 15%, 20% and 25%) Incorporeal tests (minimised or removed Concealement and Dodge and these were not counted and these were not counted if they came up)
2. FvS with Feydark Illusionist (Blur, Displacement and 95%) for Concealment tests (minimised Dodge and Incorporeal and these were not counted if they came up)
3. Jedinja (95%) Dodge tests (did not minimise Incorporeal or Concealment, as Dodge Avoidance is first of the three, but did not count if any did come up from other two and can't self heal like others, especially on higher difficulties).

Quest:
Gianthold - Cabal for One

Difficulties:
Elite, Reaper 1 through 5

Enemies used
Scouts

FvS using Concealment on Elite shows zero bypass (I used 100% Concealment instead for easier testing).
On Reaper 1, there was around a ~9% hit rate despite 100% (One Hundred) Concealment working on Elite. (sample size was around 65 for quick testing)
On Reaper 2, there was around a ~19% hit rate despite 100% (One Hundred) Concealment working on Elite. (sample size was around 120 for quick testing)

FvS using Concealment on Elite shows normal bypass (I used 5% Concealment from effect).
On Reaper 1, there was 100% hit rate, despite 5% (Five) Concealment working on Elite. (sample size was around 200 minimum for quick testing)

FvS using Concealment on Elite shows normal bypass (I used 10% Concealment from Dusk item).
On Reaper 1, there was 100% hit rate, despite 10% (Ten) Concealment on Elite. (sample size was around 200 minimum for quick testing)

FvS using Concealment on Elite shows normal bypass (I used 15% Concealment from Dusk item and Effect).
On Reaper 1, there was ~5% Concealment (sample size was around 200 minimum for quick testing)

FvS using Concealment on Elite shows normal bypass (I used 20% Concealment from Blur ability).
On Reaper 1, there was ~10% protection rate from Concealment
On Reaper 2, there was ~5% protection rate from Concealment
On Reaper 3, there was 100% hit rate, with 0 (zero) protection from Concealment

Tests were repeated the same with the Palemaster for Incorporeal and Jedinja for the Dodge tests. Recorded video too. Checked numbers a few times over.

The numbers present suggest what I posted already. It's brutal against Avoidance defence users.

:: edit ::

Sample sizes at first during 100% Concealment tests were smaller than others, but was increased aftewards due to time needed for those tests being reliant on the capstone ability that takes 3 minutes to recharge.

J1NG

J1NG
11-15-2020, 08:07 PM
So, just to add further details on the testing done:

1. Make sure you reduce as much non target Avoidance Miss Chance check (So if testing Incorporeal, reduce or eliminate Dodge and Concealment numbers; although sometimes this can't be avoided).
2. Enter quest, make sure both Scouts (ranged enemies who only shoot once per 2 seconds, grabbing both allows you two hits most of the time and easier to track) are not Champions. (I made mistake of eliminating one first time around, hence the low sample rate intially)
3. Aggro them, remove any Reaper that might be there too.
4. Activate any "Active" form of the Avoidance Defence in question (Dodge, Incorporeal or Concealment).
5. Let them hit you and heal up any damage.
6. Keep Combat Log on.
7. Rewatch the boring tests that you recorded and do a manual count multiple times.
8. Count attacks made (ignoreing any Misses, and only counting successful hits and "Avoided" from Avoidance Miss Chance in question, so if testing Concealment, ignore any Dodge and Incorporeal (this is easy to do for Concealment, as Dodge always comes first, and Incorporeal next).

Concealment tests:
5% Twilight Filgree 5 set for +5% Stacking Concealement
10% Dusk item
15% Dusk and Filigree
20% Blur
25% Lesser Displacement item or Blur + Filigree set
50% Displacement
100% Master Illusionist (95% Concealment) + Filigree set (Tested on Elite to be 100%, never bypassed by enemies without True Seeing, same as how old form of Dodge was).

Incorporeal tests:
10% Wraith form
15% Wraith form (10%) + Ascendant Shroud (5% - Palemaster T5)
20% Wraith form (10%) + Palemaster Core 3/4/5 (10%)
25% Wraith form (10%) + Palemaster Core 3/4/5 (10%) + Ascendant Shroud (5% - Palemaster T5)
50% Reborn in Light
You could in theory get more, but that's beyond the scope of what I could test given resources available.

Dodge tests
50% Standing Dodge
95% Active (20 to 50 Dodge) + Standing Dodge (50%)

---

Logic involved in reaching conclusions given in previous post:

1. Tried Concealment 100%, went into Elite, no problems, was untouchable.
2. Tried Concealment 100%, went into Reaper 1, suffered hits.
3. Looked at numbers. Roughly 9% hit rate through 100% Concealment. But small sample only.
4. Suggests it could be anything from 5% to 15% bypass.
5. Tried Concealment 100%, went into Reaper 2, suffered hits.
6. Looked at numbers. Roughly 19% hit rate through 100% Concealment. Over 100 sample this time.
7. Suggests it could be anything from 15% to 25% bypass.
8. Tried Dusk 10% Concealment, went into Elite, has a % chance to avoid damage, works as expected.
9. Tried Dusk 10% Concealment, went into Reaper 1, never received a single Concealment message over 200 hit sample.
10. Suggests Reaper 1 is 10% Concealment Bypass. But could be as high as 15% given point 4 above.
11. Tried Dusk 10% + Filigree 5% for 15%, went into Elite, works as expected.
12. Tried Dusk 10% + Filigree 5% for 15%, went into Reaper 1, had Concealment pop up rarely.
13. Suggests that 15% Concealment Bypass is impossible to be the right number for the debuff on players Concealment defence. 10% Concealment Bypass appears to be the correct value and suggests each Skull is 5% Bypass in value.
14. Tried Dusk 10% + Filigree 5% for 15%, went into Reaper 2, did not have Concealment come up.
15. Heavy implication of the numbers given in previous post.
16. Tried Blur 20%, went into Elite, works as expected.
17. Tried Blur 20%, went into Reaper 1, suffered hits.
18. Looked at numbers. Roughly 10% of hits were avoided through Concealment defence.
19. Highly suggests the numbers given in previous post.
20. Tried Blur 20%, went into Reaper 3 (avoided Reaper 2, since we are now trying to see if the numbers are correct for 5% Bypass, so Reaper 3 would mean 20% Bypass), and did not have Concealment come up from sample size of over 300.
21. Pretty much agrees with what was posted in previous post.
22. To wrap up, Tried Blur 20%, went into Reaper 2, and had Concealment defence trigger at very low %.

That was what the logic and testing process used for testing the debuff on players.

The same set of tests were employed for Incorporeal, only instead of testing maximum rating, since the Devs had said that they were going to employ the same debuff for Incorporeal, it would already suggest 5%. But to confirm, I redid the tests with 10% (base Wraith form) at Reaper 1, and I was fully expecting it to never proc, assuming it would be the same debuff level as Concealment. But was surprised when I saw Incorporeal trigger. This suggested that the debuff on defence for Avoidance defence was the same, 5%. Repeated the tests at higher Reaper difficulties, and increased the Incorporeal % each time, using the same test model, found Incorporeal total failure (never proc'ing) at the Reaper difficulties listed.

Incidentally, these debuff numbers aren't surprising either. Incorporeal has always been a lower maximum number compared to Concealment, and with much fewer sources overall to increase it with. So its debuff starting at a slower rate (5% Incorporeal Bypass vs 10% Concealment Bypass at Reaper 1), sounds logical in that sense.

For the Dodge test, I just went in, killed everything, walked up to Bruntsmash and proceeded to use the Aasimar females /dance2 whilst playing "Ultimate Battle" on the side and just let it run until the song finished. Then walked back out unscathed. On R10. Didn't bother killing Bruntsmash, did it before already. (+1 for anyone who gets the reference. :p)

---

So, new players. Thinking of joining Reaper difficulty runs?

Make sure you are carrying the appropriate Avoidance (Dodge, Incorporeal, Concealment) defences for the difficulty that you are joining, any less than the following numbers and you essentially don't have any of that defence value:

Reaper 1: Dodge any%, Incorporeal 10%, or Blur 20% or more.
Reaper 2: Dodge any%, Incorporeal 15% or Blur 20% or more.
Reaper 3: Dodge any%, Incorporeal 20% or Lesser Displacement 25% (Item effect; lower levels need to look to Displacement 50% as very few if any Lesser Displacement items at low levels)
Reaper 4: Dodge any%, Incorporeal 25% or Displacement 50%.
Reaper 5+: Dodge any% or Displacement 50%.
Reaper 9, 10: Dodge any%

Obviously, the Concealment granted by Clouds aren't impacted by the player debuff, so Clouds are always useful still if you have access to that and are heading into Reaper.

---

If anyone sees anything clearly wrong, let me know. I can correct or double check with further tests, but I don't believe I made any obvious mistakes there with the logic involved.

J1NG

Kebtid
11-15-2020, 10:35 PM
This is late, but might be useful for some who are considering joining Reaper difficulty runs for the first time.

Concealment (Blur, Displace, etc)
Is reduced by a flat 5% on entering Reaper Difficulty, +5% per Reaper Skull, so Reaper 1 gets 10% flat concealment bypass. Reaper 2 gets 15% flat concealment bypass, etc.
So if you have anything equal or less than 10% Concealment, you basically have nothing on entering Reaper 1.
And by the time you reach Reaper 9, your Displacement (50%) equals nothing (9x5% = 45% + 5% = 50% ignored). Note, I am unsure (not tested) if there's an upper limit cap to the debuff, but it doesn't feel like it at the moment from tests done so far).

In short:
Dusk (10%) is dead on Reaper 1, you basically have 0%
Blur (20%) is dead on Reaper 3, you basically have 0%
Lesser Displacement (25%) is dead on Reaper 4, you basically have 0%
Displacement (50%) is dead on Reaper 9, you basically have 0%

Incorporeal
Is reduced by 5% per Reaper Skull. So by the time you reach Reaper 5, 25% Incorporeal is worthless.

In short:
Wraith Form (10% before buffs) is dead on Reaper 2, you basically have 0%
Wraith Form (15% with Enhanced form) is dead on Reaper 3, you basically have 0%
Wraith Form (20% with Core enhancement) is dead on Reaper 4, you basically have 0%
Wraith Form, Shadow Form, Shadow Veil, etc (25% Incorporeal) is dead on Reaper 5, you basically have 0%
Reborn in Light (50%) is dead at Reaper 10, much better, but this is a one time use only ability.

Dodge
Is not reduced on Reaper 1 through 10.

Anyone who is thinking Dodge needs to be nerfed. That's NOT what this shows. It shows that the Devs instead went ham with the debuff on players instead for Concealment and Incorporeal and that debuff needs to be reduced, and Dodge needs to be left alone.

You cannot cast Displace on others, so 25% (Lesser Displacement Item buff) is all you can get easily. This means that by Reaper 4, you have no Concealment defence, and any Incorporeal defence is also mostly gone (15% from Enhanced Incorporeal item buff). Those who can gain Incorporeal 25% (Shadow Fade with Ninja Spys and Wraith Forms) will still have 5% left, but if they don't have Displacement, they are in a very poor state and even then you only have 30% avoidance with Concealment. Remember, this is Reaper 4, not Reaper 8, by Reaper 8 even with Displacement you esentially only have 5%. This means that anyone wanting to be able to use Concealment in Reaper difficulty, once they hit Reaper 4 or higher, they NEED Displacement or they will effectively have nothing.

Remember that Rogues and (Especially) Monks, are effectively hamstrung even further because of their relaince on Dodge. If Dodge is nerfed, you basically make ALL Reaper 4+ onwards, CC, dps (ranged), and PRR/MRR. And that's just silly.

J1NG

So my guildie after reading this post stepped into r10 cabal and from the first archer he got Displaced triggers from misses.
Which pretty much discredits everything you tested.
It is reduced, but it is not 0 % at r10, assumption from other guildies is that its 1% per skull. (this is pure guesswork)
Conceal works as well in r10.

So uhm, please test again instead of misleading people.

J1NG
11-16-2020, 07:20 AM
So my guildie after reading this post stepped into r10 cabal and from the first archer he got Displaced triggers from misses.
Which pretty much discredits everything you tested.

Actually, it does not discredit everything I tested. But it does validate something else I made a note of:


Note, I am unsure (not tested) if there's an upper limit cap to the debuff, but it doesn't feel like it at the moment from tests done so far).

I didn't go all the way to R10 for Concealment tests as in the post prior, I already showed I went at the lower reaper levels (R1 to R5) to check what the debuff ratings was there first to work out a number to test on. And it's 5%.

So thanks for that, it means I now go back in and test for the upper cap limit and which Skull this cap happens on. :)

J1NG

Carpone
11-16-2020, 07:28 AM
I didn't go all the way to R10 for Concealment tests as in the post prior, I already showed I went at the lower reaper levels (R1 to R5) to check what the debuff ratings was there first to work out a number to test on. And it's 5%.
Show your data and margin of error calculation. Right now no one is trusting your claims, especially with the backpedaling.

NemesisAlien
11-16-2020, 07:58 AM
This is late, but might be useful for some who are considering joining Reaper difficulty runs for the first time.

Concealment (Blur, Displace, etc)
Is reduced by a flat 5% on entering Reaper Difficulty, +5% per Reaper Skull, so Reaper 1 gets 10% flat concealment bypass. Reaper 2 gets 15% flat concealment bypass, etc.
So if you have anything equal or less than 10% Concealment, you basically have nothing on entering Reaper 1.
And by the time you reach Reaper 9, your Displacement (50%) equals nothing (9x5% = 45% + 5% = 50% ignored). Note, I am unsure (not tested) if there's an upper limit cap to the debuff, but it doesn't feel like it at the moment from tests done so far).

In short:
Dusk (10%) is dead on Reaper 1, you basically have 0%
Blur (20%) is dead on Reaper 3, you basically have 0%
Lesser Displacement (25%) is dead on Reaper 4, you basically have 0%
Displacement (50%) is dead on Reaper 9, you basically have 0%

Incorporeal
Is reduced by 5% per Reaper Skull. So by the time you reach Reaper 5, 25% Incorporeal is worthless.

In short:
Wraith Form (10% before buffs) is dead on Reaper 2, you basically have 0%
Wraith Form (15% with Enhanced form) is dead on Reaper 3, you basically have 0%
Wraith Form (20% with Core enhancement) is dead on Reaper 4, you basically have 0%
Wraith Form, Shadow Form, Shadow Veil, etc (25% Incorporeal) is dead on Reaper 5, you basically have 0%
Reborn in Light (50%) is dead at Reaper 10, much better, but this is a one time use only ability.

Dodge
Is not reduced on Reaper 1 through 10.

Anyone who is thinking Dodge needs to be nerfed. That's NOT what this shows. It shows that the Devs instead went ham with the debuff on players instead for Concealment and Incorporeal and that debuff needs to be reduced, and Dodge needs to be left alone.

You cannot cast Displace on others, so 25% (Lesser Displacement Item buff) is all you can get easily. This means that by Reaper 4, you have no Concealment defence, and any Incorporeal defence is also mostly gone (15% from Enhanced Incorporeal item buff). Those who can gain Incorporeal 25% (Shadow Fade with Ninja Spys and Wraith Forms) will still have 5% left, but if they don't have Displacement, they are in a very poor state and even then you only have 30% avoidance with Concealment. Remember, this is Reaper 4, not Reaper 8, by Reaper 8 even with Displacement you esentially only have 5%. This means that anyone wanting to be able to use Concealment in Reaper difficulty, once they hit Reaper 4 or higher, they NEED Displacement or they will effectively have nothing.

Remember that Rogues and (Especially) Monks, are effectively hamstrung even further because of their relaince on Dodge. If Dodge is nerfed, you basically make ALL Reaper 4+ onwards, CC, dps (ranged), and PRR/MRR. And that's just silly.

J1NG

Oh yay, monk nerfed into the ground, now its on a journey to the centre of the planet.
So much for best d&d class.

J1NG
11-16-2020, 09:42 AM
Show your data and margin of error calculation. Right now no one is trusting your claims, especially with the backpedaling.

No backpedalling was done. I wrote that in my first reply. Unless I have magical powers to edit something without it showing on the forum like my other replies as I corrected and edited stuff to make them clearer.

I only added the other posts and details over time as I had time to write them. Rechecked the videos as I had more time, but here are the actual numbers within, and if anyone wants, I can (over time) upload the videos done to test these numbers out too. Unless some want to start screaming Chinese/Russian involvment and that I've altered the video. >.>

Reaper 1
Concealment 100%
65 Attacks, 60 Blurry, 5 hits

Reaper 2
Concealment 100%
119 Attacks, 95 Blurry, 24 hits

Reaper 1
Concealment 5% + 1% Dodge (Can't avoid that)
165 Attacks, 8 misses, 2 Dodge, 0 Blurry

Reaper 3
Concealment 100%
124 Attacks, 90 Blurry, 1 Dodge (Was not counted in total attacks as Concealment is last between Dodge, Incorporeal and Concealment, but put here to show that even at 1%, it crops up)

Reaper 1
Concealment 10% (Dusk)
254 Attacks, 19 misses, 0 Blurry

Reaper 3
Concealment 20% (Blur)
3 Attacks, 1 Blurry

Reaper 2
Concealment 15% (Dusk + Filigree) + 1% Dodge (Can't avoid that during my testing, but could be done if needed for restesting, I don't have the plat available to respec all the time)
128 Attacks, 7 misses, 1 Dodge, 0 Blurry

Reaper 3
Concealment 25% (Blur + Filigree) + 1% Dodge
151 Attacks, 6 misses, 1 Blurry

I'll post other numbers up later (Incorporeal, Dodge and higher Reaper to R5, R5+ testing I'll do later when I have more time to find that cap). But with these results, I would dare say that 1% reduction per skull is very unlikely.

J1NG

J1NG
11-16-2020, 12:39 PM
Just begun conducting further tests, preliminary details as follows:

Reaper 5
Concealment 50 (Displacement) + 2% Dodge
717 Attacks, 163 Displacement, 25 misses (which count at attacks that landed, because Displacement triggers before AC), 16 Dodge (These were removed from the 717 Attacks already, total attacks were 733 if anyone was interested).
Which is roughly
22% Displacement and 2% Dodge.

This suggests a ~22% effectiveness of Displacement in Reaper 5. Very close to the amount I proposed earlier on: 5 Base + 5 per Skull (25 in Reapear 5), knocking it down to 20% effectiveness. And even the Dodge number is close to the 2% I have.

And yes, video was recorded so others can go over later on when I get the time to upload them for any naysayers who aren't testing themselves to add to the info for the community.

But so far, I really can't see any of these numbers tally with 1% reduction.

J1NG

J1NG
11-16-2020, 02:05 PM
Preliminary tests for Reaper 6 data as follows:

Reaper 6
Concealment 50 (Displacement) + 2% Dodge
541 Attacks, 131 Displacement, 16 misses (which count at attacks that landed, because Displacement triggers before AC, so is in the total attacks number already), 11 Dodge (These were removed from the 541 Attacks already, total attacks were 552 if anyone was interested).

Which is roughly
24% Displacement and 2% Dodge.

Still a far cry from 1% per skull reduction. And doesn't really tally with previous observed test numbers.

J1NG

J1NG
11-16-2020, 04:11 PM
Preliminary Reaper 7 data:

Reaper 7
Concealment 50 (Displacement) + 6% Dodge (+4% Due to Bard Song)
1162 Attacks, 263 Displacement, 182 misses (which count at attacks that landed, because Displacement triggers before AC, so is in the total attacks number already), 61 Dodge (These were removed from the 1162 Attacks already, total attacks were 1223 if anyone was interested).

Which is roughly
22% Displacement and 5% Dodge.

Dodge is close enough to what I was rocking, and Displacement also seems to hover around the 20%-25% region.

That's all I can do for the moment, as I'm needed IRL in the kitchen, primary carer during lockdown, so you guys will need to wait for more.

J1NG

J1NG
11-18-2020, 05:32 PM
Prelimnary Reaper 6 Incoporeal 50% Data

Incoporeal 50% (Reborn in Light), Dodge 8%
Attacks 128, Incoporeal 28, 6 misses (which count as successful hits, these are included with the Attacks), 6 dodges (which don't count and already removed from the Attacks total, original attack number is 134)

If the reduction in 5% holds true as I proposed, at Reaper Difficulty = 0%, Reaper 6 = 6 x 5% = 30% reduction.

It's preliminary, since you only get 2 minutes, and it's a bloomin' 10 minute cooldown AND rest at the shrine to use. But those numbers leave you with around 20% Incoporeal effectivenss and 5% Dodge, which, for now, looks like it supports my proposed numbers rather than a 1% reduction.

J1NG

:: edit ::

Test 2

Incoporeal 50% (Reborn in Light), Dodge 8%
Attacks 113, Incorporeal 22, Miss 1, Dodge 6

Around 20% for Incorporeal again and 5% for Dodge.

Adding numbers to previous Test (1) and we get

Attacks 241, Incorporeal 50, Misses 7, Dodge 12

Which is roughly ~20% Incorporeal effectiveness, and ~5% Dodge.

Again, it would suggest the numbers I proposed to be much closer to what the actual debuff is. The only question is if there's an actual cap for Incorporeal as there is for Concealment. Because R6 and R7 looks like they remain at 20% effectiveness only.

J1NG

timmy9999
11-18-2020, 06:02 PM
Prelimnary Reaper 6 Incoporeal 50% Data

Incoporeal 50% (Reborn in Light), Dodge 8%
Attacks 128, Incoporeal 28, 6 misses (which count as successful hits, these are included with the Attacks), 6 dodges (which don't count and already removed from the Attacks total, original attack number is 134)

If the reduction in 5% holds true as I proposed, at Reaper Difficulty = 0%, Reaper 6 = 6 x 5% = 30% reduction.

It's preliminary, since you only get 2 minutes, and it's a bloomin' 10 minute cooldown AND rest at the shrine to use. But those numbers leave you with around 20% Incoporeal effectivenss and 5% Dodge, which, for now, looks like it supports my proposed numbers rather than a 1% reduction.

J1NG

I briefly read through this thread, why do we as players have to do these tests. Why can't the devs provide this information.
Seriously.

J1NG
11-18-2020, 06:15 PM
I briefly read through this thread, why do we as players have to do these tests. Why can't the devs provide this information.
Seriously.

No idea to be honest. But now we have some data to work with, it looks like they loaded it for the "End Game" players and screwed everyone else on the early Skull difficulties. That reduction is seriously bad as I mentioned earlier.

Sure, you can craft Displacement clickies, but how many do you need for an entire run at high Reaper? Assuming you can finish a run in 10 minutes on R6+, with the what looks like a cap (or is it actually a mistake by the Devs?) of a 30% reduction for Concealment and Incorporeal, you still need a good 4 Displacement clickies (from GS Crafting) to last that entire period of time. And lets not forget, the only way to get 50% Incorporeal is currently Reborn in Light, and it is a one time use ability, and so needs to shrine to make it available again, besides having a 10 cooldown. :: edit :: Whilst the lower Skulls punishing them for having something lesser through the rapid increase of the debuff per skull before it seems to level off at around R5/R6. :: /edit ::

Going to update the previous post on Incorporeal 50% (and dodge 8) with new numbers as further tests are conducted. It's not quick to do these particular tests unfortunately.

J1NG

J1NG
11-18-2020, 08:39 PM
Prelimnary Reaper 7 Incoporeal 50% Data

Incoporeal 50% (Reborn in Light), Dodge 8%
Attacks 122, Incoporeal 17, 3 misses (which count as successful hits, these are included with the Attacks), 13 dodges (which don't count and already removed from the Attacks total, original attack number is 135)

Interestingly, the Incorporeal appears so far to be dropping another 5%, but this is too soon to call. Correlating with what I've proposed and that Incorporeal is having a 5% reduction per skull. Will add to the data later and see how it goes.

J1NG

:: edit ::

Test 2 for Reaper 7

Incorporeal 50% (Reborn in Light), Dodge 8%
Attacks 123, Incorporeal 19, Misses 6, Dodges 10

Roughly ~15% Incorporeal, ~8% Dodge, which would indicate what I suggested to be likely to be accurate.

Total numbers including Test 1 and Test 2 at Reaper 7

Incorporeal 50% (Reborn in Light), Dodge 8%
Attacks 245, Incorporeal 36, Misses 9, Dodges 23

Roughly ~15% Incorporeal, ~9% Dodge

Again, it highly suggests what my proposed numbers are to what the real debuff numbers are.

J1NG

J1NG
11-18-2020, 09:28 PM
Prelimnary Reaper 8 Incoporeal 50% Data

Incoporeal 50% (Reborn in Light), Dodge 8%
Attacks 122, Incoporeal 19, 5 misses (which count as successful hits, these are included with the Attacks), 8 dodges (which don't count and already removed from the Attacks total, original attack number is 130)

So far this gives us around ~15% for Incorporeal and around 6% for Dodge. Dodge looks OK, but Incorporeal looks like there might be a cap similar to Concealment.

J1NG

:: edit ::

Test 2

Incoporeal 50% (Reborn in Light), Dodge 8%
Attacks 120, Incoporeal 22, 7 misses (which count as successful hits, these are included with the Attacks), 14 dodges (which don't count and already removed from the Attacks total, original attack number is 134)

So this gives around ~18% for Incorporeal and around 11% for Dodge, a bit wild of a swing, 3% both ways.

Total

Incoporeal 50% (Reborn in Light), Dodge 8%
Attacks 242, Incorporeal 41, 12 misses, 22 dodges

Giving around ~17% Incorporeal and ~9% for Dodge. Still looks close to what I proposed the numbers would be if the debuff continues. But it's looking fairly close to there being a cap for Incorporeal as well for the debuff (at 35% Reduction), similar to the cap for Concealment debuff (which is only 30% as well, so there's some favortism going on around there).

J1NG

J1NG
11-18-2020, 10:16 PM
So, with current test results, I would update and revise my original proposal to the following instead:

Concealment (Blur, Displace, etc)
Is reduced by a flat 5% on entering Reaper Difficulty, +5% per Reaper Skull, so Reaper 1 gets 10% flat concealment bypass. Reaper 2 gets 15% flat concealment bypass, etc.
So if you have anything equal or less than 10% Concealment, you basically have nothing on entering Reaper 1.
* new *There is a cap of 30% reduction, meaning by Reaper 5, you will not be debuffed further.

In short:
Dusk (10%) is dead on Reaper 1, you basically have 0%
Blur (20%) is dead on Reaper 3, you basically have 0%
Lesser Displacement (25%) is dead on Reaper 4, you basically have 0%
Displacement (50%) is only 20% viable from Reaper 5 onwards.

Incorporeal
Is reduced by 5% per Reaper Skull. So by the time you reach Reaper 5, 25% Incorporeal is worthless.
* new *There is a cap of 35% reduction, meaning by Reaper 7, you will not be debuffed further.

In short:
Wraith Form (10% before buffs) is dead on Reaper 2, you basically have 0%
Wraith Form (15% with Enhanced form) is dead on Reaper 3, you basically have 0%
Wraith Form (20% with Core enhancement) is dead on Reaper 4, you basically have 0%
Wraith Form, Shadow Form, Shadow Veil, etc (25% Incorporeal) is dead on Reaper 5, you basically have 0%
Reborn in Light (50%) is only 15% viable from Reaper 7 onwards.

Dodge
Is not reduced on Reaper 1 through 10.

Again, this doesn't suggest Dodge needs nerfing, instead, it highlights the silliness of the debuff on players other avoidance defences and they need to be reduced instead.

These current numbers have high implications for gear and build designs for players running into mid Reaper difficulties, whereby if you are ranged and can kite or AOE for massive damage, you can avoid grabbing these defences entirely, especially Incorporeal. Whilst Melee, can actually forgo certain defences and items completely because at this point with these debuff numbers, they will basically do nothing by a low Reaper Skull difficulty.

For example, the typical high Incorporeal defence rating is around 25%, some can hit 30%, maybe even 35%, not sure (Not ran those numbers). But lets look at these capped debuff numbers. Incorporeal basically craps on anyone who uses any form of Incorporeal for defence at all by Reaper 5. You basically have 0%. Wraith form Undead Palemasters may have access to Displace, but not all Shadowdancer Shadow form melee may have that same luxury. Any Ghostly or gear with Incorporeal defences are also pointless by the same extension and can be dropped by Reaper 2 or Reaper 3 (since typically items only give 10% or 15%). So entire lines of gear has been invalidated by Reaper 2/3.

This means that the Devs are actually REQUIRING players to use Displace once they hit Reaper 5+ but have NOT told us to do so. ESPECIALLY the Melee. Perma Blur items are basically worthless by Reaper 3 and if you want to run Reaper 3, Dance of Clouds (Blur buff from Monks) are basically worthless and not worth spending the Ki over.

By Reaper 5 for Concealment in comparison, this is a 30% (5% for Reaper, 5 x 5 Skulls difficulty 5% = 25%, so 30% reduction) reduction. Meaning those who can displace, still get 20% Concealment bonus, but if this is the case. Since clouds are not impacted, then if the cloud offers 20% Concealment to the party inside it anyway, what's the point of needing to cast Displacement at all? Just have your caster cast a cloud on you instead. You save on SP and resources and gearing requirements.

Yeah, REALLY good design for Reaper there Devs... >.>

J1NG

Komradkillingmachine
12-03-2020, 02:23 PM
Holy mother...

These results are incredibly disturbing considering how much effort and time I spent grinding LGS mats to make x5 oppo/etheral set hoping to benefit from extra incorporeal avoidance. I only have 19% (!!!) incorp and that's with a stacking GHOSTLY item.

DEVS!

Do you not understand how much incorp a build can get? 25% is MAX on just 2 types of builds!

Why bother supporting Incorporeal items, enhancements and effects at all? Just DELETE THEM FROM THE GAME.

Lord knows DDO needs consolidation and streamlining of effects to ease the calculation loads on their aging machines.

Sigh...

J1NG
12-09-2020, 07:37 AM
Prelimnary Elite 95% Dodge data

95% Dodge, 15% Incorporeal, 25% Concealment

222 Attacks, 220 Dodges, 1 Miss, 1 Concealment (Miss and Concealment occur after Dodge fails, so these are considered to have breached Dodge)

~99% Dodge Effectiveness

Think I just need to increase the data sample size, fairly certain it's not 99% effective. :)

J1NG

J1NG
12-09-2020, 07:39 AM
Prelimnary Reaper 1 95% Dodge data

95% Dodge, 15% Incorporeal, 25% Concealment (Effectively 10% Incorporeal and 15% Concealment if proposals hold true)

368 Attacks, 352Dodges, 5 Miss, 3 Concealment, and 8 Deflected (Miss, Concealment and Deflected occur after Dodge fails, so these are considered to have breached Dodge)

~95% Dodge Effectiveness

J1NG

J1NG
12-09-2020, 07:41 AM
Prelimnary Reaper 6 95% Dodge data

95% Dodge, 15% Incorporeal, 25% Concealment (Effectively 0% Incorporeal and 0% Concealment if proposals hold true)

257 Attacks, 246 Dodges, 5 Miss, 6 Deflected (Miss and Deflected occur after Dodge fails, so these are considered to have breached Dodge)

~95% Dodge Effectiveness

J1NG

J1NG
12-09-2020, 07:46 AM
Prelimnary Reaper 10 95% Dodge data

95% Dodge, 15% Incorporeal, 25% Concealment (As above, effectively 0 for both if proposed numbers hold true)

168 Attacks, 158 Dodges, 3 Miss, 7 Deflected (Miss and Deflected occur after Dodge fails, so these are considered to have breached Dodge)

~94% Dodge Effectiveness (close enough to 95%, and had a lower sample rate, because I had to tackle a Carnage Reaper at the same time during the test so had to take care of them first).

What's interesting, is that whilst I did do a massive jump from R1 to R6 then R10, you'll notice that from the R6 and R10 test data, that there was no Concealment or Incorporeal that triggered.

Will continue adding data from tests conducted (also recorded), to help increase the sample data size, but at this time, I can't honestly agree with a 1% reduction. And that the debuff numbers I proposed (and the debuff cap) would appear to be the more likely case that's in use when entering in on Reaper.

J1NG

Khornelain
12-11-2020, 11:23 AM
Hi J1NG,

Thanks for all the tests you´re running to shed some light on this. One question about concealment. A friend tells me that concealment that comes as a side effect of a spell, particularly Solid Fog, is NOT affected by reaper adjustment. Do you happen to to have done a test on this? There are plenty of Solid Fog clickies out there and according to your figures, it should be down to 0% on R3 and above.

Thanks,

- Khorne

Rastallin
12-11-2020, 06:18 PM
Can we get an answer from the devs regarding the effectiveness of displacement, blur etc. in reaper.
Also J1NP what was hitting you to get the data? Might seem like an obvious comment, not sure if you covered it but heaps of champs have true seeing. If this is the case, might be something they can add to new reaper trees, increased effectiveness of blur and displacement etc. If that ever eventuates....

J1NG
12-11-2020, 07:10 PM
Hi J1NG,

Thanks for all the tests you´re running to shed some light on this. One question about concealment. A friend tells me that concealment that comes as a side effect of a spell, particularly Solid Fog, is NOT affected by reaper adjustment. Do you happen to to have done a test on this? There are plenty of Solid Fog clickies out there and according to your figures, it should be down to 0% on R3 and above.

Thanks,

- Khorne

Not had chance to properly test that yet. Will do so once Thelanis comes back up.


Can we get an answer from the devs regarding the effectiveness of displacement, blur etc. in reaper.
Also J1NP what was hitting you to get the data? Might seem like an obvious comment, not sure if you covered it but heaps of champs have true seeing. If this is the case, might be something they can add to new reaper trees, increased effectiveness of blur and displacement etc. If that ever eventuates....

All tests were against the two basic scouts in Cabal for One, always when they are non-Champions. Elite and R1 to R10. Was listed earlier on, but easy to miss from all the wall of text that's been put up, so I apologise for that.

J1NG

J1NG
12-12-2020, 10:00 AM
Hi J1NG,

Thanks for all the tests you´re running to shed some light on this. One question about concealment. A friend tells me that concealment that comes as a side effect of a spell, particularly Solid Fog, is NOT affected by reaper adjustment. Do you happen to to have done a test on this? There are plenty of Solid Fog clickies out there and according to your figures, it should be down to 0% on R3 and above.

Thanks,

- Khorne

Hello, sorry about the delay, I had discovered that my Wizard did not pick up the Cloudkill spell (a previously confirmed functional cloud that provided concealment), and thus was unable to complete this test until now.

Thanks to a member of Tycoons of Tomorrow on Thelanis who kindly donated a Scroll of Cloudkill, I have now got the following information to add to this test data.

Cloudkill (Level 5), provides Concealment in R3 (which personal Concealment is reduced by 5% for Reaper, and for Reaper 3 15% (3 x 5% per skull) should have been reduced to 0 zero procs).

However, I can also confirm from other tests (although these were done before Thelanis crashed, so will retest them again later to make sure) that the following Cloud spells do NOT provide concealment in Reaper:

Fog Cloud (Level 2)
Stinking Cloud (Level 3)
Solid Fog (Level 4)

Mists/Cloud/Fogs that say they provide Concealment but still need to be tested are:

Obscuring Mist (Level 1)
Acid Fog (Level 6)

Will update this post later. But yes, I can confirm that "some" (at least one) cloud spell does provide concealment bonus that should be functional in higher Reaper difficulties.

J1NG

:: Edit ::

Just a quick update, this posts details may not be entirely accurate, I will be re-testing them again in the near future to confirm them. As a quick and dirty test on Elite showed no such protection triggering from Cloudkill. So retesting each cloud type spell to make sure there are no inaccuracies there.

Khornelain
12-18-2020, 03:21 PM
Hi again @J1NG,

I just played with my two friends The Tide Turns in heroic reaper 5. Sorcerer learnt Solid Fog spell to test it, I asked our tank to check on concealment miss procs and he confirmed it IS working. He does NOT have any ghostly item and his dodge is below 10%. According to your tests, there should NOT be any concealment miss procs from Solid Fog in repear 5. Any idea what is about?

Thanks,

- Khorne

J1NG
12-18-2020, 06:50 PM
Hi again @J1NG,

I just played with my two friends The Tide Turns in heroic reaper 5. Sorcerer learnt Solid Fog spell to test it, I asked our tank to check on concealment miss procs and he confirmed it IS working. He does NOT have any ghostly item and his dodge is below 10%. According to your tests, there should NOT be any concealment miss procs from Solid Fog in repear 5. Any idea what is about?

Thanks,

- Khorne

I have not yet had a chance to complete the tests yet properly for the clouds and mists (in middle of making a LR to recollect the spells I'm missing).

Besides the cloud and mists tests, I will bring someone else in along for the test, since I have a sneaky feeling that there may be a difference between self concealment and concealment offered by others, but will find that out later once the LR is done.

As for the Solid Fog cast by a Sorc, as I didn't directly have the spell on my caster (still don't, yet), but had a clickie available, I utilised that for testing. And clearly in that video, the Fog didn't want to offer any type of concealment at all. Which means either the clickies are bad for Reaper, or it'll only be useful for others and not yourself. Testing should confirm this and let us players know what's best to do in each situation.

Bare with me whilst I get that done, unfortunately with xmas around the corner and me being the one assigned to vulnerable and shielded family members, it means I need to work complex stuff like an LR in to tight time schedules through the day and night (especially since I'll be using an old +20 Heart, so don't want to get anything wrong and then needing to do something more drastic afterwards).

J1NG