PDA

View Full Version : What is the D&D lore such that Arcane Spell Failure applies to Alchemists?



MeliCat
03-07-2020, 09:48 PM
Hi - ASF is applying to alchemists and I don't understand why. Is this a lore thing? Also being impacted by beholders. I mean, you're throwing a bottle with pre-mixed stuff.

Is this meant to be a thing or just everything is re-badged arcane so it's just a thing that comes with it?

Alchemists have enough stuff that makes me go 'meh'. It mildly annoys me that I fished out light armour instead of cloth and now every time I chug a displacement potion I have to check that it actually applies.

Thoughts?

Xgya
03-07-2020, 10:25 PM
Hi - ASF is applying to alchemists and I don't understand why. Is this a lore thing? Also being impacted by beholders. I mean, you're throwing a bottle with pre-mixed stuff.

Is this meant to be a thing or just everything is re-badged arcane so it's just a thing that comes with it?

Alchemists have enough stuff that makes me go 'meh'. It mildly annoys me that I fished out light armour instead of cloth and now every time I chug a displacement potion I have to check that it actually applies.

Thoughts?

There's magic at work BEFORE you drink that potion.
It's not just a potion of thing, it's a mix of alchemicals adding your own magical might in order to produce an effect similar to chucking a potion.
If you could get the same effect without the added magical flourish and on-the-spot mixing, you'd find that kind of explosive might in the nearest potion shop. The fact you don't means that the Alchemist does something more than just throw the thing. The Alchemist isn't just carrying a bunch of vials around to throw - he's using magic as he throws, with the usual arcane gestures, to make the vial do something it wouldn't do in the hands of a non-Alchemist.

As for the beholder thing, I'll have you know that DDO is VERY, VERY, VERY generous with its beholders. Their anti-magic cones aren't really anti-magic. By the usual rules, it should block ALL magic. Your magical equipment? Stops working. Those potions? They're foul-tasting liquids with no effect until you leave the Beholder's gaze. That dragon? Cannot breathe fire while that gigantic eye's pointed at it. Bard songs? Sorry, those effects are supernatural - the Beholder just shuts them down.

NemesisAlien
03-07-2020, 11:28 PM
There's magic at work BEFORE you drink that potion.
It's not just a potion of thing, it's a mix of alchemicals adding your own magical might in order to produce an effect similar to chucking a potion.
If you could get the same effect without the added magical flourish and on-the-spot mixing, you'd find that kind of explosive might in the nearest potion shop. The fact you don't means that the Alchemist does something more than just throw the thing. The Alchemist isn't just carrying a bunch of vials around to throw - he's using magic as he throws, with the usual arcane gestures, to make the vial do something it wouldn't do in the hands of a non-Alchemist.

As for the beholder thing, I'll have you know that DDO is VERY, VERY, VERY generous with its beholders. Their anti-magic cones aren't really anti-magic. By the usual rules, it should block ALL magic. Your magical equipment? Stops working. Those potions? They're foul-tasting liquids with no effect until you leave the Beholder's gaze. That dragon? Cannot breathe fire while that gigantic eye's pointed at it. Bard songs? Sorry, those effects are supernatural - the Beholder just shuts them down.

Dragon breath is natural, no magic involve, just lots of bad breath :p

GeoffWatson
03-07-2020, 11:43 PM
Alchemist isn't a D&D class, so they just made up whatever they felt like.
There is no lore.

OK, there's an NPC-only Alchemist in 1st edition, but that is nothing like DDO's Alchemist.

SilentRunning
03-09-2020, 07:31 AM
Looks like a class to me.

Magic of Eberron page 53. Alchemist Savant

Steelstar
03-09-2020, 07:52 AM
DDO's Alchemist does use the Alchemist Savant from Magic of Eberron as its base, but we modified a lot in transitioning it from a 3.5 Prestige Class to a full DDO Class. One such modification was the addition of Arcane Spell Failure; for balance with other Spellcasters and to reinforce the class' role as a robe-based caster, we wanted to include it. For lore justification, Arcane Spell Failure is meant to represent difficulty in completing the Somatic components of spells while wearing heavier armor or shields, since it restricts the movement of your hands. DDO's Alchemists create potions on the fly (placing components in glass vials) and infuse them with magical energy (which also requires somatic components) - We represent the increased challenge of doing both of those things in heavier armor/shields via Arcane Spell Failure.

HastyPudding
03-09-2020, 08:01 AM
DDO's Alchemist does use the Alchemist Savant from Magic of Eberron as its base, but we modified a lot in transitioning it from a 3.5 Prestige Class to a full DDO Class. One such modification was the addition of Arcane Spell Failure; for balance with other Spellcasters and to reinforce the class' role as a robe-based caster, we wanted to include it. For lore justification, Arcane Spell Failure is meant to represent difficulty in completing the Somatic components of spells while wearing heavier armor or shields, since it restricts the movement of your hands. DDO's Alchemists create potions on the fly (placing components in glass vials) and infuse them with magical energy (which also requires somatic components) - We represent the increased challenge of doing both of those things in heavier armor/shields via Arcane Spell Failure.

How is sorcerer/wizard getting access to light, medium, and shield proficiency balanced compared to just-robes-and-only-robes as an alchemist? Also, how does that justify making several of the alchemist's key spells point blank range on what you readily admit is a fragile class? There's some design flaws in alchemists that I think you guys either overlooked or we're still in some sort of test phase.

Steelstar
03-09-2020, 08:10 AM
How is sorcerer/wizard getting access to light, medium, and shield proficiency balanced compared to just-robes-and-only-robes as an alchemist? Also, how does that justify making several of the alchemist's key spells point blank range on what you readily admit is a fragile class? There's some design flaws in alchemists that I think you guys either overlooked or we're still in some sort of test phase.

Admittedly, Sorc/Wizard's access to those should be more expensive than it is.

While there will be further bugfixes down the line to Alchemist (and likely a few balance adjustments as well), the class seems to be performing pretty close to how it was intended.

HastyPudding
03-09-2020, 08:27 AM
While there will be further bugfixes down the line to Alchemist (and likely a few balance adjustments as well), the class seems to be performing pretty close to how it was intended.

Bugfixes are nice, but they have nothing to do with it. This is more an issue of why a fragile ranged class has to wade into very dangerous melee combat to do what other classes can do from much further away (and those classes are much more resilient) and they have to target a frequently more difficult save to do so (fortitude, instead of will). Not to mention the unreliable healing: slow but strong works fine for damage, but not for healing, not in a fast-paced action MMO.

EDIT: also, I'm not trying to be snippy, but just trying to understand the design of the class, when that design feels inherently flawed, like it looks good on paper but falls short in execution.

janave
03-09-2020, 10:27 AM
Admittedly, Sorc/Wizard's access to those should be more expensive than it is.

Shield Training is also a bit too good for 2APs. It is about million times better than +3 seeker. :)

Also Deflect Arrows is too conveniently placed, tho currently some content is miserably hard without it (i think thats a content issue not character dev ), preferring spells to add a percentage bonus to missile deflection here that does not layer on Deflect Arrows and requires a Concentration check. It used to be Stoneskin too, but the DDO version does not really mesh well with difficulty and epic/leg scaling.

I would also get rid of flat spell points and hitpoints from enhancements for the d4 classes, would replace them with spell cost reduction %. The hit points of these classes is ideally whoever else blocks them :). I would make up for EK with more temp hp procs in the tree, linked to building a melee spec.

If reaper trees get the same treatment that is close to ideal imo.

Unsure if it is possible but the spell power in EK could be bound to combat feats, instead of being placed in the cores for cheap ap. It makes it too easy to spend otherwise not well aged APs from Sorcerer into EK.

Thar
03-09-2020, 11:25 AM
Shield Training is also a bit too good for 2APs. It is about million times better than +3 seeker. :)

Also Deflect Arrows is too conveniently placed, tho currently some content is miserably hard without it (i think thats a content issue not character dev ), preferring spells to add a percentage bonus to missile deflection here that does not layer on Deflect Arrows and requires a Concentration check. It used to be Stoneskin too, but the DDO version does not really mesh well with difficulty and epic/leg scaling.

I would also get rid of flat spell points and hitpoints from enhancements for the d4 classes, would replace them with spell cost reduction %. The hit points of these classes is ideally whoever else blocks them :). I would make up for EK with more temp hp procs in the tree, linked to building a melee spec.

If reaper trees get the same treatment that is close to ideal imo.

Unsure if it is possible but the spell power in EK could be bound to combat feats, instead of being placed in the cores for cheap ap. It makes it too easy to spend otherwise not well aged APs from Sorcerer into EK.

Caster with a shield is the least of the games issues. Barbarians rolling through content is the meta now. I couldn't get a spell off much less keep up.

janave
03-09-2020, 12:32 PM
Caster with a shield is the least of the games issues. Barbarians rolling through content is the meta now. I couldn't get a spell off much less keep up.

It is kind of an anti design element if you ask me, technically a shield caster with some experience and access to crafting can easily access Barbarian comparable ( or even slightly superior) PRR. Ideally a d10/d12 HD class template should be roughly 2.5-3 times ahead in all physical absorption. This is only closely followed trough for defender Fighters and Paladins currently. But it is actually the Shield bonus to MRR that makes it such a self defeating pattern (MRR cap).

IMO.YMMV;

Emerge2012
03-09-2020, 02:04 PM
How is sorcerer/wizard getting access to light, medium, and shield proficiency balanced compared to just-robes-and-only-robes as an alchemist?
Why can Alchemist heal so well and Sorc/Wiz can't?


Shield Training is also a bit too good for 2APs. It is about million times better than +3 seeker. :)
Running a shield on a caster is such an incredible waste of everything unless specifically built to tank. Orbs and secondary caster sticks on any worthwhile build.

kmoustakas
03-09-2020, 03:59 PM
I'm sorry devs but you really blew it with alchemist. It could have been a simple artificer tree like it's in 5e but no, you wanted to make it a full class so people had to buy it.

HastyPudding
03-09-2020, 05:05 PM
Why can Alchemist heal so well and Sorc/Wiz can't?

Have you tried alchemist healing? I mean, real alchemist healing as an apothecary build, not a bombardier. It's slow, clunky, and has a tendency to not hit its target, and you have to manually self target yourself to heal yourself, and even then it's still a slow casting time.

Conversely, why are warforged wizards/sorcerers allowed to heal with repair spells?

Tuxedoman96
03-10-2020, 06:40 AM
As for the beholder thing, I'll have you know that DDO is VERY, VERY, VERY generous with its beholders. Their anti-magic cones aren't really anti-magic. By the usual rules, it should block ALL magic. Your magical equipment? Stops working. Those potions? They're foul-tasting liquids with no effect until you leave the Beholder's gaze. That dragon? Cannot breathe fire while that gigantic eye's pointed at it. Bard songs? Sorry, those effects are supernatural - the Beholder just shuts them down.

To be fair, if they were implemented as the were in tabletop, the beholders would probably actually be easier to fight. The antimagic cone is supposed to only suppress magic (instead of stripping off the buffs), and the beholders other eyes are actually affected by the cone, making the center potentially the safest place to be when fighting it (but then you'd have to get into the mechanics of how the beholder would turn it's central eye on and off in RT combat and the consequences that might have in quests that feature a lot of beholders, etc.).

HuneyMunster
03-10-2020, 11:24 AM
Admittedly, Sorc/Wizard's access to those should be more expensive than it is.


If that's the case then Archmage needs to get its overhaul first, as well as an alternative for EK or Savant for Sorcerers.

MeliCat
03-11-2020, 05:57 AM
DDO's Alchemist does use the Alchemist Savant from Magic of Eberron as its base, but we modified a lot in transitioning it from a 3.5 Prestige Class to a full DDO Class. One such modification was the addition of Arcane Spell Failure; for balance with other Spellcasters and to reinforce the class' role as a robe-based caster, we wanted to include it. For lore justification, Arcane Spell Failure is meant to represent difficulty in completing the Somatic components of spells while wearing heavier armor or shields, since it restricts the movement of your hands. DDO's Alchemists create potions on the fly (placing components in glass vials) and infuse them with magical energy (which also requires somatic components) - We represent the increased challenge of doing both of those things in heavier armor/shields via Arcane Spell Failure.

thank you. v happy with that. that is a reasonable and logical explanation :)

zappy
03-11-2020, 12:59 PM
Admittedly, Sorc/Wizard's access to those should be more expensive than it is.

Holup!

the only armor that we can wear, is the armor that is built by yall Devs.

If i wear tanking armor on a caster, my casting ability is reduced and my tanking ability is increased. I see 0 problems with that system. If I want the max dps/DC's as a caster, I am FORCED into using robes. If i want to tank the best, I am forced into medium/heavy armor and a shield. This further reduces the power of the caster because i may have to give up some really good casting feats and gear in order to hit prr/mrr/hp/intimidate minimums to tank. This is balanced as it sits and i specifically will be very upset to say the least if any type of character has a more difficult time then they already do wearing the armors and gear that YOU have made for us.

Oxarhamar
03-16-2020, 12:43 AM
Have you tried alchemist healing? I mean, real alchemist healing as an apothecary build, not a bombardier. It's slow, clunky, and has a tendency to not hit its target, and you have to manually self target yourself to heal yourself, and even then it's still a slow casting time.

Conversely, why are warforged wizards/sorcerers allowed to heal with repair spells?

Yes, yes it takes getting used to then it's fine


snip__

While there will be further bugfixes down the line to Alchemist (and likely a few balance adjustments as well), the class seems to be performing pretty close to how it was intended.