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Kutalp
02-29-2020, 10:28 PM
I wish you a good day.


Harper tree fans. My question is to you. What would you think if Harper tree had;



*Strategic combat giving Choose: Intelligence, Charisma or Wisdom option.

*Passive +6 DC to your spells; instead of passive +1 and +10 boost for a short time. +2 at T5. +2 at core 5 and the last core.

*+6 spell penetration achieved through cores. (last three cores)

Spell DC and penetration would be nice twist for mnulticlassing but would be exclusive with other caster trees.


*Each step of versatile adept giving +6 universal power.

*+2 to all skills at T and +2 at T5. +5 extra at last core.

*Harper leadership giving CR equal to your CR to all your summons.

*Immunity to level drain, stat damage, curse and disease through cores and T4-T5.

*Wand and scroll mastery.

*+3 prr/mrr, +1 dodge and maximum dexterity cap for each core.

* Play dead: Die Hard with auto - threat and +%100 of your hitpoints at unconciousness mode. Npcs lose interest. (Effect casts Dimension door on you ?)

* Slow Mass SLA Core 4

*+%1 movement speed, attack and casting speed for every three AP spent.

*Naughty Summon lever pulling companion with Intimidate and small radius -%15 to movement and attack speed of hostile npcs as AoE effect : Imp, Pixie, Dragonfly, Hamster. T4

*A musical instrument of choice with emote, Heroism, Greater heroism, Good hope effect T3, T4, T5.

*+1 critical threat and metalline effect to shortbows and scimitars. These weapons counts as magical and gives +%6 critical chance to all spells cast. T4-T5

*Dimension door, Teleport, Greater teleport at core 2, core 3, core 4.

* New spell (?) Gigling dust SLA scaling with character level. Makes hostile npc gigle and take no action (Similar to Glitter dust but also has %20 chance to knockdown for 6 seconds)

* New spell (?) Harper's Banishing Dancing floor SLA. Makes hostile npcs dance before sending them away Core 4 (?)

*Vigor of Life II, III, IV at core 3, 4 and last core. (+60 Healing amp)

*Word of peace : Mass cure moderate wounds and Greater restoration effect SLA at the last core.

*+2 to all stats and +%25 to spell points at the last core.




These are my humble opinions on a long due revamp for Harper universal tree. I wish developers would also be interested in the subject and speak their mind.


Thank you very much for reading. Stay tuned. :D



https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxQK4h0e79Hkq-GilibbuMsH4XwBfNHY2XRtmL9_T4qD0F1X6IuA&s

Gniewomir
03-01-2020, 05:17 AM
It's a 2nd thread of yours with similar idea (multiple stat choice) and since 1st one was ignored i feel obliged to reply in this one. For the record - nothing from stuff below is personal insult and please dont consider it as such.

No, no, no and no. DDO is becoming more and more game for dimwits. Almost every universal tree + few classes allows to change main stat. Even FvS was changed into multiple stat choice (wis or cha). Soon it won't matter in ddo what stat you're using, just choose whatever and take few enhancements.

If you want multiple stat choice, why cha/int/wis and not, for example, str? All 3 can be used to hit/dmg through various enhancements and other stuff like saves, extra saves (pal), spell dc, spell points, , skill points, ins dmg (kta, dm) and right now str is the only stat that gives nothing except hit/dmg.

Other changes:
Total +10 skills, isnt it too much? Especially for int tree, handly for trappers?
DD at t2 core, seriously? Right now the only source of dd for non caster classes is dragonmark feat+enh as human. For casters - min 7 lvls, and you want it to be available for everyone at lvl 3 at cost of 5 ap?
Movement speed... Already half of classes got speed bonuses of some sort. Barb, bard, rogue, monk, druid, warlock, artificer., fighter/pal Alchemist even got sprint spell. The more trees/classes got it, the less interesting it's becoming. Just add extra movement at lvl 1 for all classes and we'll have exactly the same.
And... attack speed for ap? 50 ap spend, +25% attack speed? It's ridiculously over powered.
+50% sp for last core, joke, right? There're already people with 10k sp, do we really need extra 5000 spell points just for using harper tree? It'll become literally the only tree worth investing for casters.
Bonuses to summons... well, they're junk anyway. Entire summoning system could use serious revamp, maybe including some kind of summoner class.

Summarise: so far it seems you got no clue what this tree is supposed to be: just put literally everything (skills, gh, dd/gt, movement/attack speed, dc, hit/dmg, healing/resto, drain immunity, hampli, cc, crits, summons, stats, spell points, stats dmg immunity, prr, mrr, dodge, dodge cap) and pray it works. Oh, it's gonna work. whats more it's gonna be the most op tree in game. Whats more it's gonna be the only tree worth taking for literally everyone. Not trying to be mean, but if you want to make harper revamp suggestion i suggest you deleting literally entire post and trying again from scratch.

Saekee
03-01-2020, 10:19 AM
I think you got a bit carried away there


It is a hybrid tree that is behind every other similar hybrid tree like EK but it is older so that is inevitable

I would like to see it as an alternative to Warpriest, for example, since it has MP, or something to get assassins with kukris excited, so some offhand hit %, a crit multi in tier 5? IDK

Saekee
03-01-2020, 10:24 AM
btw before powercreep got out of control, this was my beloved harper tree build:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/455826

Kutalp
03-01-2020, 02:36 PM
It's a 2nd thread of yours with similar idea (multiple stat choice) and since 1st one was ignored i feel obliged to reply in this one. For the record - nothing from stuff below is personal insult and please dont consider it as such.

No, no, no and no. DDO is becoming more and more game for dimwits. Almost every universal tree + few classes allows to change main stat. Even FvS was changed into multiple stat choice (wis or cha). Soon it won't matter in ddo what stat you're using, just choose whatever and take few enhancements.

If you want multiple stat choice, why cha/int/wis and not, for example, str? All 3 can be used to hit/dmg through various enhancements and other stuff like saves, extra saves (pal), spell dc, spell points, , skill points, ins dmg (kta, dm) and right now str is the only stat that gives nothing except hit/dmg.

Other changes:
Total +10 skills, isnt it too much? Especially for int tree, handly for trappers?
DD at t2 core, seriously? Right now the only source of dd for non caster classes is dragonmark feat+enh as human. For casters - min 7 lvls, and you want it to be available for everyone at lvl 3 at cost of 5 ap?
Movement speed... Already half of classes got speed bonuses of some sort. Barb, bard, rogue, monk, druid, warlock, artificer., fighter/pal Alchemist even got sprint spell. The more trees/classes got it, the less interesting it's becoming. Just add extra movement at lvl 1 for all classes and we'll have exactly the same.
And... attack speed for ap? 50 ap spend, +25% attack speed? It's ridiculously over powered.
+50% sp for last core, joke, right? There're already people with 10k sp, do we really need extra 5000 spell points just for using harper tree? It'll become literally the only tree worth investing for casters.
Bonuses to summons... well, they're junk anyway. Entire summoning system could use serious revamp, maybe including some kind of summoner class.

Summarise: so far it seems you got no clue what this tree is supposed to be: just put literally everything (skills, gh, dd/gt, movement/attack speed, dc, hit/dmg, healing/resto, drain immunity, hampli, cc, crits, summons, stats, spell points, stats dmg immunity, prr, mrr, dodge, dodge cap) and pray it works. Oh, it's gonna work. whats more it's gonna be the most op tree in game. Whats more it's gonna be the only tree worth taking for literally everyone. Not trying to be mean, but if you want to make harper revamp suggestion i suggest you deleting literally entire post and trying again from scratch.






Hello Gniewomir . Thanks for the respond.

I wish you were a bit more positive though. Also this is the first time I post about Harper tree. Multiple stat choice thats what a good number of players are asking for. Players including me or you are not dimwits.

Harper is originally meant to be a Caster tree with twists. Could certainly go Bard/Wizard multiclass tree which would also be using Intelligence and Charisma. Wisdome is a gest to divine caster players.

Imagine Falconry working with Intelligence and Dexterity aswell. It would certainly work for Assasin and rogues in general and for wizards aswell.


Did you compare this tree to the most favorite class trees, enhancements and epic destinies players keep using ?

Do you see any power creep exagarated critical and single hit KO dungeon mechanics at the tree ? That s what matter now, Critical bursts and almost Invicibility mechanics through enhancements and clickies. Please tell me. Does this suggestion has any of that ?




Inquisitive & Warlock (Melt dungeon), Fusilade (Melt away), Artificer/Eldrciht knight force cleave tank best fighter (even when not) and mage at the same time ? Dire charge ? Cocoon ? Potion chug/Critical combo to burst annihilate an entire room with a single spell . KTA (?)

Items and item sets that come from simply running quests (?) A single item can give +20 net to a single skill, stats, ability, ghostly abilities, crit threat and multiplier by simply handling an item. Additionally insightfull, quality and equipment bonuses over enhancement bonuses. These can also come much earlier to replace levelling up mechanics (???)

Please tell me. Do you not use any of Meta builds and Meta sets and run raids ?



Please check this: Yes a single item or single enhancement tree and consmable beats 20 levels you played and thought it was worth for the adevnture. The builds mean nothing compared to item and several exagarated enhancement combinations.


Do you also find these over powered ? Do you not ?



How come do you find a universal tree overpowered for giving +10 to skills and +30 to prr at lvl 20 cap with over 40 AP spent ?

Does everyone has to pick rogue and Human, Gnome or Aaasimar, or Dragon born for say Sorceror, Inquisitve, Warlock etc etc to build a more efficient build of his dreams ?


Please . Whats the catch ? I am positive towards fellow posters.

But, seriously would anyone need to troll attempt some post for being honest ? I have real clues about Universal trees such as Inquisitve tree and Arti/EK/Harper for KTA/Druid wolf form and many other combos overalpped over epic destinies and certain items. ( Or Inquisitive+Harper+Eldricht Knight...Never heard of ? ) Does that count as no clue ?


What I post may not be perfect; but I am being honest and certainly not clueless. Anyhow I advice you to please delete yourrude post and reconsider posting a polite one.



Have a nice game my friend.

Kutalp
03-01-2020, 02:55 PM
I think you got a bit carried away there


It is a hybrid tree that is behind every other similar hybrid tree like EK but it is older so that is inevitable

I would like to see it as an alternative to Warpriest, for example, since it has MP, or something to get assassins with kukris excited, so some offhand hit %, a crit multi in tier 5? IDK



Dear Saekee,

As usual I respect your idea and agree with you, same as I agree with stealth and rogue revamp for roguish abilites. The game is too much on ciritical, a couple of enhancements from certain class/trees and extreme Item burst right now, which leaves nothing to builds, creativity and team play aswell.

This can easily be changed by the developers.


Thank you for the response.

Buddha5440
03-02-2020, 02:14 PM
OK, so you want:
+6 DC/Spell pen
+30 Spell Power
+10 (+14 w/GH) to all skills
Immunity to almost every negative effect
+36 PRR/MRR
+12% dodge/+12 max dex bonus
Up to +40% move/attack/casting speed
+6% spell crit chance
20% slow to mobs
Rare spells
+2 to all stats
and +30% spell points

...

That would be a hard "No"

Universal trees are supposed to allow you to tweak a few things on you build, not to be a class of their own. The bonuses you outline exceed, for the most part, what you can get as a pure class. This would be the definition of Power Creep.

Most assuredly not signed.

AlmGhandi
03-02-2020, 02:22 PM
I think it could do with a permanent blur effect.

And the heal amp boosts should force you to choose between positive, negative and repair.

And some kind of vampiric stance that lets me heal whilst hitting people.

And we need some kind of companion (like the Skeletal Knight) in the enhancements.... what would fit to Harper?
Then at least the bonuses to "summons" would have a direct link/fit to the tree.

And because they are called "Harpers" there should be some bard-like music feat in there.
And now the ship buffs have gone... maybe some better resist clicky?

Oh and SSG should really start selling "Tomes of Universal Tree Points".... I'd buy that for a dollar!

lyrecono
03-03-2020, 01:57 AM
The harper tree used to be an iconic racial tree, the devs couldn't make it work in time and made it into a universal tree, it was never meant as just a "caster" tree.
I think the power creep is a bit strong in your suggestions.
And i would never support cha/wis/int to hit and damage so why would i or anyone else allow it to be used as a bonus to combat feats? Strength is the most underrated stat in the game atm.

If people want to trip/or stun, let them boost str (do people still sunder?)
At best i would support a con to hit/damage/combat dc in a dwarven tree but since its a ftp race, the best i could hope for is an iconic dwarf (if you're reading this ssg, a dwarven battle rager(barbarian) or defender (fighter) please )

Anyways, we've just seen a paid tree that was massively overpowered get nuked from orbit, why would devs spend time revamping this tree? The harler tree is basicaly abandonware at this point.

I raher see a tree that makes (2hf) melee combat as viable and fun in r8-r10 as ranged and casting is.
For the longest time i thought the devs had forgoten what (2hf) melee was like, especially in the harder difficulties but recent changes point to a different view. Though the number of targets isn't to my liking and animations are borked, at least it means the devs have finaly admited there were "issues", it just took the community a couple of years of complaining.
So who knows, maybe we'll see a universal throwing tree that lets us throw dual returning versions of our 2handed weapons, before we retire....

Didn't diablo 2 have a barbarian thrower build at some point? Throwing dual axes?
Well combine that with inquisitor mechanics and your great axe gets copied and finnaly melee can enjoy high reaper just as safely as the rest XD

Just joking offcourse, but we do need to be aware that power creep is a thing and we shouldn"t encourage the devs for another caster option in this sea of caster/ranged options while other playstyles are still not up to par.

cru121
03-03-2020, 03:20 AM
I think the tree starts fine. It's mostly the high cores and upper tiers that need help.

T1 core: +5 USP, why not.
T4 core: add 5 PRR/MRR
T5 core: add 10 PRR/MRR
T6 core: add 5 dodge cap, +2 to all stats, and multiselector: +10 doublestrike / +10 doubleshot / +1 DC

Early tiers are OK. Perhaps move throat dagger to T1.

Add some decent SLA multiselector at T3 and/or T4.
* T3 options: CSW / some illusion CC, some evo, ...
* T4 options: maybe DDoor, GH, or Displacement, some stronger Evo; Mass Restoration

For healing and evocation SLAs, some scaling cooldown mechanics could be used (depending on character level); or decrease cooldown in 4th and 5th core.

Harper Enchantment of Righteousness - move to T4
Harper Enchantment of Deception - increase enh bonus to +3 or +5
Versatile Adept IV: 1 rank for +10

New multiselector: +1 DC / +1 crit multiplier / +1 crit threat


Decrease the cooldown of activated abilities to something usable (1 min?)

DaviMOC
03-03-2020, 05:59 AM
I agree it needs a revamp but I like how it was done.
As the second universal tree added to the game it served as a real universal tree. Not having a purpose on its own it could assist many different builds.
As much as I liked VKF tree all other universal trees kidnapped the purpose of any build. I really didn't expect that a universal tree could turn you in a knife fighter or a Dual Xbow man from a diehard type of movie and nullifying the meaning of having a defined class.
So I hope that any changes made to Harper it could keep the capability of supporting many builds but not being a build by itself. Also hoping for more universal trees like it.

droid327
03-03-2020, 10:55 AM
Yeah I agree Harper works well as a more build-agnostic tree, more of a 'something for everyone' tree with generic bonuses. That being said, the bonuses currently there are not a good value for your AP. Harper could especially be a good "generic" tree for casters, if there was more USP and generic Lore and universal stats like Spell Crit Damage or +DCs, and then something build-defining in the T5. That'd make it somewhere else to spend your points if you wanted to go pure caster in one class tree, ie Tief Fire Savant or a pure PM or pure caster Druid...or be a generic framework for a caster build that otherwise isnt supported well by its actual class trees, like a CC Sorc.

Considering the archetype Harper is a Bard, I really think KTA and the Int-to-combat should be a multiselector with CHA-to-combat as an alternative too. There's no reason Sorcs and Warchanters shouldn't enjoy the same flexibility as Wiz and Rogue.

Gniewomir
03-03-2020, 11:55 AM
and +30% spell points


It was 50%, seems he changed it after my comment. 30% is definitely not enough...

Xgya
03-03-2020, 02:01 PM
Inquisitive has spoiled the way we used to see universal trees.

A Universal tree shouldn't be someone's first option for a tree, except for flavor, or, perhaps, a single unique ability in T5 or the higher cores.
Vistani's a good example. You CAN build a pure Vistani build, but you still need a class tree to focus on to bring the build home.

Harper is even closer to that goal, and was the first Universal tree to be released. It has a few perks, some interesting stuff higher up, but you can't really 'play' a Harper. You're a Wizard that happens to be a Harper, an Artificer with a Harper badge, a Rogue that likes investigating weird magic.

Falconry was released between both. As such, it's a little harder to build around (though there's still some interesting stuff higher up the tree for anyone that wants to go there), but it's a great support tree for many classes.

I'd want Inquisitive to move away from the 'This tree makes the class chosen as meaningless as possible' theme that's plagued the servers and made people think EVERYONE was an Inquisitive because, well, everyone could be.

Your idea for the changes to Harper moves it closer to that. If I can immediately think of a build that would be better off spending 41 points in this tree instead of focusing on their class, we're moving into dangerous territory.
This is ESPECIALLY true about Universal trees, because you don't lose access to the final core by multiclassing.

My idea for Universal trees would be a radical change, really out of this world.
Universal trees don't have a 6th core or T5 abilities, period. They're supposed to be secondary trees, anything that could make a tree a primary one (that's the final cores and T5 abilities) should be absent from them.

PsychoBlonde
03-03-2020, 05:00 PM
I think you got a bit carried away there


It is a hybrid tree that is behind every other similar hybrid tree like EK but it is older so that is inevitable

I would like to see it as an alternative to Warpriest, for example, since it has MP, or something to get assassins with kukris excited, so some offhand hit %, a crit multi in tier 5? IDK

Giving Harper an actual combat style so you could actually play a "harper" character would be good. My suggestion would be an imbue that damages extreme alignments (VERY HIGH UP IN THE TREE), since harpers are all about balance. Maybe some anti-alignment SLA's. I wouldn't mind if it allowed a selection of stats for hit/damage, but it should be int, dex, and cha, since those are the stats supported by the tree.

Kutalp
03-04-2020, 04:59 AM
Thank you very much for all your valuable opinions.


I really like the Harper theme and DDO Harper tree aswell. Although it is pretty gimp except the T5 extend and Int to hit/damage (and known to be picked for KTA aswell), I choose to use it at all of rogue splash builds properly. (Fan of Human and Harper trees more than anything else; although Gnome is also very nice)

This is nowehere a complete design or anything else but a sketch; since I had some thoughts and tried player's attention aswell. (Some points made delibaretly but was worth to test the waters through replies. I was curious)

May be there can be a true Harper class aswell in the future.


The game certainly needs a new tree that can compete rogue specs, Human and Gnome tree usefullness; keeping Harper's good sides but also a tree or class that can be used for ranged/melee/casting through shared enhancements and toggles. (Partially Ranger class/Rogue class/Vistani/Harper/Artificer/Mechanic/Spellsinger... etc...)

I wish you all a good game.

Kutalp
03-04-2020, 09:12 PM
Giving Harper tree at least some DC upgrade would do good for multiclassing at least. :)

*T5 +2 and Core 4 +2 and last core +2

*Additioanlly Spellsinger like tiny hp and spell point regen ability. (?)

*May be some saves and umd bonus from the deep cores and T5. (?)



I believe these would support multiclassing if several of these upgrades were exclusive with other trees.

FuzzyDuck81
03-07-2020, 08:43 AM
My own ideas for some relatively minor tweaks:

Capstone - add +2 to all stats as a passive in line with the other universal trees & keep the clicky.
weathered traveller - increase to +2/4/6 in line with similar enhancemnts in other trees.
Highly skilled - remove & add +1 to all skills in each core
Throat dagger - move down to tier 3 in highly skilled's place, so same placement as vistani fan of knives
Harper Subtlety - new enhancement in tier 4, reduce threat generated by spells, melee & ranged damage by 10/20/30% (quite high in the tree for this type but no other threat reduction applies to all sources at once, only threat generation effects)

the tier 5 stuff needs to be a more viable choice, so...
Enchantment of Deception - also add chance to no-save blind enemies on hit for 6 secs
Enchantment of Magic - increase to +20 spellpower, also add 5% spell critical chance & 5% spell critical damage bonus
Enchantment of Righteousness - add +15 melee & ranged power

moment of clarity - reduce the cooldown to 150sec (2.5mins)

Harper survivalist - new enhancement, passively adds +20 prr & mrr, +5% quality(?) bonus to HP, plus a clicky that grants +10 temporary HP & +5 temporary SP per character level (and an extra +25 temp hp per epic level) that last for 60secs, useable once every 2mins.

Pandjed
04-19-2020, 09:28 PM
What the tree needs the most is an actual design idea. That's the bane of being the first one, and we have to admit, that Universal Trees lacks an overarching theme. We have:

Harper - The tree that makes spellcasting better, but also has some melee stuff, ah, and the intelligence to hit and damage, and...
VKF and Inquisitive - Revolving around certain weapons
Falconry - Revolving around a specific mechanism with some general buffs here and there, but a clear direction (be with falcon, be a falcon... and WIS to hit and damage)

Personally, my favorite would be the Falconry tree in terms of design. It can do something unique and has a clear idea what it's supposed to be. Sadly, the long cooldowns make it hard to play.

VKF could have been interesting without the knife fighting. The daggers/knives might have been good as a single branch, but it'd be more interesting if it would have more mystic and "luck"-based bonuses (like increase dodge, special guard effects, maybe four toggles tied to the deck for skills [coin], spells [stars], defense [glyphs], and weapons [sword]). Now it acts as a supplement for rogue assassins and alchemist throwers, especially as its tier 5 isn't that good.

Inquisitive has somehow little to do with being an inquisitive. It's about the double-x-bows and dealing damage and more damage. It's very powerful and the very reason why many classes with old trees and multiclasses have it as the main tree. Terrible design, good numbers.




So the question is, what UETs are supposed to be. The Harper could be easily revamped as a tree that fits the roles of the Harper (most of them being spellcasters and gather information... therefore skills and spellcasting enhancements), but is it supposed to work as a supplement tree or could it be pulled of to make it a main tree?