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Son_of_the_South
02-18-2020, 05:00 AM
Inquis crossbow build still viable or a Vistani Thrower better dps? Has anyone been able to test both?

Considering either 12 Alchem/6 Ranger/2 Fighter (Aasimar Scourge running in Inquis) OR 12 Alchem/6 Wizard/2 Fighter or similar split (Deep Gnome - colour spray is nice) Vistani thrower build. Lack of decent throwing daggers is a factor but Return to Sender avail at level 14...

Any advice from those who've tried out either/both since Alchemist came out?

EDIT: Would look at VC as other main tree. Option with the second build is PM and Wraith form.

Oliphant
02-18-2020, 05:57 AM
Consider taking 15 levels of Alch to get access to level 6 spells for the heal pot. I'm throwing that thing around all the time. It is more finnicky landing it than a traditional mass heal but I can throw two in the same time it takes to land one mass heal spell. I'm doing throwing building with 41 AP in VKF, 11 AP in Harper for KTA and rest dumped in VC. I dumped dex and muddled myself into no IPS style. So far no IPS is working fine and the Alch offensive AOE spells let me deal with big throngs of mobs when needed. My thrower Alch is currently beating my guildie's FvS INQ. I'm starting to really like the flavor of the throwing Alch.

Son_of_the_South
02-18-2020, 06:14 AM
Consider taking 15 levels of Alch to get access to level 6 spells for the heal pot. I'm throwing that thing around all the time. It is more finnicky landing it than a traditional mass heal but I can throw two in the same time it takes to land one mass heal spell. I'm doing throwing building with 41 AP in VKF, 11 AP in Harper for KTA and rest dumped in VC. I dumped dex and muddled myself into no IPS style. So far no IPS is working fine and the Alch offensive AOE spells let me deal with big throngs of mobs when needed. My thrower Alch is currently beating my guildie's FvS INQ. I'm starting to really like the flavor of the throwing Alch.

Thanks for the tip, ill look into 15 Alch. What do you suggest for the remaining 5? Would 5 Wiz be useful? Fighter better for feats?

EDIT: also, what throwing knife you using? Return to Sender?

Swimms
02-18-2020, 06:15 AM
Inquis crossbow build still viable or a Vistani Thrower better dps? Has anyone been able to test both?

Considering either 12 Alchem/6 Ranger/2 Fighter (Aasimar Scourge running in Inquis) OR 12 Alchem/6 Wizard/2 Fighter or similar split (Deep Gnome - colour spray is nice) Vistani thrower build. Lack of decent throwing daggers is a factor but Return to Sender avail at level 14...

Any advice from those who've tried out either/both since Alchemist came out?

EDIT: Would look at VC as other main tree. Option with the second build is PM and Wraith form.

I did an Alquisitor or (Inquisimist if you prefer) with 41 points into VC (t5) and the balance into Inquis with a splash into Harper for KtA and I hated it. Ended up LRing and swapping to a knife thrower with the same split and the points that I had in Inquisitive went into VKF and the DPS was considerably higher for me. Boss DPS after swapping from IPS to Archers Focus was as good or better than the old inquisitive. Will have to see how it matures into later epics.

Oliphant
02-18-2020, 09:22 AM
@Son_of_the_South I'm level 21 at the moment and mostly using the Borderlands Ethereal throwing dagger you can buy with one ethereal ingot in the town. Probably better ones out there but it has ghost touch for reapers so I just leave it equipped. I got a ML 30 Lynnabel's Bug Killer from this year's party event for later. I'm not sure how good bug killer is but the damage rating on the ML30 version is about twice the value displayed for Return to Sender (ML29). Those ToEE weapons are that way but seem pretty weak in practice so who knows yet.

I'm not sure about multi-classing it. So far I'm going pure and maxing out INT hoping to get effects like freezing and turn to gold from the flask attacks.

HungarianRhapsody
02-18-2020, 09:58 AM
I did an Alquisitor or (Inquisimist if you prefer) with 41 points into VC (t5) and the balance into Inquis with a splash into Harper for KtA and I hated it. Ended up LRing and swapping to a knife thrower with the same split and the points that I had in Inquisitive went into VKF and the DPS was considerably higher for me. Boss DPS after swapping from IPS to Archers Focus was as good or better than the old inquisitive. Will have to see how it matures into later epics.

I don't have Multitude of Missiles or Simple Thrown Weapon Expertise, but I got 212 shots with Inquisitive dual Crossbow at cap and I got 127 thrown daggers with Vistani at cap. (Shiradi destiny) I know that Multitude of Missiles and Simple Thrown Weapons expertise are going to make a difference. I just swapped my enhancements since I didn't feel like talking to Fred for better testing.

I'm going to be doing my Alchemist life next, so I'm curious to see how many daggers someone can pump out in 60 seconds with all of the appropriate feats/boosts/etc. on a Vistani Alchemist.

talanh133
02-19-2020, 04:46 PM
Return to Sender isn't actually that great. See, there's a persistent bug with Return to Sender, both heroic and epic versions, where if you have Improved Precise Shot active it deals no damage after the first hit. It works fine as a single target weapon when you swap to archer's focus, but not for groups the way you normally would using IPS. Once you hit 29 you can use the Morninglord's throwing dagger from RL. Prior to that it's just using the best throwing dagger you can get. I was using the Thunder-forged one(tier 1) and it was okay, albeit not great. You can also use the ones from Keep on the Borderlands, though they have a slightly smaller damage profile than the thunder-forged one.

Son_of_the_South
02-19-2020, 05:48 PM
So, the consensus seems to be that VKF is the way to go over Inquis (although concerned about the bug with Return to Sender and IPS)?

capsela
02-19-2020, 06:04 PM
I don't have Multitude of Missiles or Simple Thrown Weapon Expertise, but I got 212 shots with Inquisitive dual Crossbow at cap and I got 127 thrown daggers with Vistani at cap. (Shiradi destiny) I know that Multitude of Missiles and Simple Thrown Weapons expertise are going to make a difference. I just swapped my enhancements since I didn't feel like talking to Fred for better testing.

I'm going to be doing my Alchemist life next, so I'm curious to see how many daggers someone can pump out in 60 seconds with all of the appropriate feats/boosts/etc. on a Vistani Alchemist.

Aproximately 300 according to my tests. Meh dps with rl 29 dagger 90 seconds to kill r1 gardak and too squishy.

redoubt
02-20-2020, 02:19 AM
Aproximately 300 according to my tests. Meh dps with rl 29 dagger 90 seconds to kill r1 gardak and too squishy.

Was this a Vile Chemist Inquis dual xbow or Vile Chemist Vistani Thrower?

(Either way, as you say, 90 seconds is far too long.)

Swimms
02-20-2020, 06:52 AM
Was this a Vile Chemist Inquis dual xbow or Vile Chemist Vistani Thrower?

(Either way, as you say, 90 seconds is far too long.)

I may have to go test this myself, I recently hit 20 and I am currently running T5 Vistani with the balance of points in VC, 14 racial and just enough Harper for KtA. Swapping to archers focus and standing still in shiradi allows the build to pump out some significant dps. I would go so far to say that for single target it is on par with the old inquisitive. For a weapon I am using an 8 slot level 20 silver throwing dagger from borderlands.

Defenses seem really good, and I stopped obsessing about being in the right stance all the time. Wearing a robe with Orchidium spike my PRR jumps to around 275 which seems silly for not even building for it. Saves are all in the high 50's at level 20. Self healing is quite nice between heal and cure admixtures with scroll backup. Primarily took martial feats but I did end up taking both quicken and the new quicken meta for pot throwing and it was a HUGE QOL improvement for me. Flesh to gold is a lot of fun in heroics when you can still hit the needed DCs without building for it.

capsela
02-20-2020, 07:26 AM
Was this a Vile Chemist Inquis dual xbow or Vile Chemist Vistani Thrower?

(Either way, as you say, 90 seconds is far too long.)

i said daggers, did another test throwing in public and sent 250 daggers in 1 min using all boosts i had. Lvl 30. No wall watch set, 140 doubleshot. Boosted to 157 doubleshot, 260 daggers.

djebarn
05-23-2020, 04:21 AM
Inquis crossbow build still viable or a Vistani Thrower better dps? Has anyone been able to test both?

Considering either 12 Alchem/6 Ranger/2 Fighter (Aasimar Scourge running in Inquis) OR 12 Alchem/6 Wizard/2 Fighter or similar split (Deep Gnome - colour spray is nice) Vistani thrower build. Lack of decent throwing daggers is a factor but Return to Sender avail at level 14...

Any advice from those who've tried out either/both since Alchemist came out?

EDIT: Would look at VC as other main tree. Option with the second build is PM and Wraith form.

Currently running a halfling full alchemist/inquisitor at level 18. I can solo most places and kill massive mobs with potions and my crossbow. I use the level 15 diplomancer Crossbow and use tier 5 inquisition. These work very well together as the bow gives me diplomacy. If anyone is interested I can post my Setup.

SocratesBastardSon
05-26-2020, 12:31 PM
I can't speak to the main question, how Inquisitive/VC performs relative to a Vistani thrower/VC. But I have an Inquisitive Alch 12 / Pal 6 / Art 2 (Inq/VC/KotC) in Shiradi and am very happy with it. My subjective impression is it's every bit as strong as my old pre-nerf Inquisitive. So far I've only played him up to R6, not high reaper or raids yet.

My old build was a Cl 14 (Earth domain) / Art 6 with 41 points in Inq and 31 in Falconry, and the rest into WP. The difference is the current build feels like it has better pure DPS than the pre-nerfed Inq, but the older build had better healing (doh) and CC (Earthquake, Diving Attack, Strike for the Eyes, Coordinated Shot).

If you dropped the 6 levels of Paladin and went 18 levels of Alchemist, you should hit better DPS for poison vulnerable mobs, but my build with KotC's light damage has more dependable, sustained damage output across all mobs. In other words, high ceiling and moderate-low floor for Alch 18 DPS, and more consistent moderate-high ceiling and moderate floor with 6 levels of Paladin.

The various poison vulnerability debuffs Vile Chemist has are great, but if you're ranged it's tough to effectively deploy Greater/Wave of Poison without getting into melee range with mobs. For melees it's less of an issue. So you're left with having to rely mostly on Poisoned Shot, and that leaves you with too much down time vs. poison immune mobs, even if you're combining Imp Precise Shot with Poison Shot (which you absolutely should be). KotC's light damage and special attacks alleviate this problem. Overall the Law/Light/Poison damage combination is quite good.

I mention all of this because I wonder how it would translate into a thrower build using Vistani instead of Inquisitive.

With Vistani and 6 levels of Paladin, this build would lend itself to knocking out some Divine Destiny past lives, because with Turn Undead, Smites, and Lay on Hands you could really dig into Confront Any Foe (DC), Smite the Wicked (DC), and Light the Dark (US) if you're not adverse to mixing in melee with throwing. Obviously Shiradi is better, and Shadowdancer is good, but I would not be shy about trying this build in Divine, so long as I could twist in Whirling Wrists.