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View Full Version : Is Alchemist just *really* bad at 1st?



Montegue
02-12-2020, 04:59 PM
So, I racial TR'd for my second Drow life, thought I'd give the new class a whirl... and holy **** is it bad to play at level one - easily the weakest class I've played so far. Casting times are super slow, spells hit for nothing, no armor to speak of, no martial weapons or way of using them..

I feel *super* weak right now. What are people doing for the class? The casting times for the AOE damage spells are really long (and the stuns).

ZzpxpzZ
02-12-2020, 08:28 PM
So, I racial TR'd for my second Drow life, thought I'd give the new class a whirl... and holy **** is it bad to play at level one - easily the weakest class I've played so far. Casting times are super slow, spells hit for nothing, no armor to speak of, no martial weapons or way of using them..

I feel *super* weak right now. What are people doing for the class? The casting times for the AOE damage spells are really long (and the stuns).

I can’t speak from personal experience since I went iconic to grind both an iconic and heroic life at the same time, it I watched Noobicabra stream right from the start and he seemed fine. It may be rough to spell cast until level 3 when you get your first aoe though. This is generally the case for most casters who do not have an abundance of racial AP, it’s just easier to grab a hire and a quarter staff until level 3.

Carpone
02-13-2020, 12:50 PM
Leveling 1-6 as an alchemist thrower has been an abysmal experience with my alchemist bombadier partner. We did racial completionist together so have a great understanding of quests and how to work together. By far it's been the worst R1 leveling slog we've had in the game, and we're both completely decked out in gear, past lives and wings.

ValariusK
02-13-2020, 01:04 PM
I've played monk thrower lives a long time ago. The slowness in starting is kinda expected.
Key milestones so far:
Level 1---get yourself a returning throwing dagger of ghost touch & bludgeon made
Level 3---by this time you can get your throwing weapon expertise for a lot more doubleshot. Also level 2 spells
Level 4---Here you get your battalion brew, for int to hit/damage. Also, by this time you should have your Level 3 cores in both vistani and vile chemist
Level 5---Most multilifers have a lot of gear at this point
Level 6---you get your level 6 cores in both vistani and vile chemist. Rapid shot. level 6 vistani gives also quick draw. Your attack rate should be a lot crisper by this time. Also multitude of missiles.

Painbringer71
02-14-2020, 10:10 AM
Level 1 was a little hairy (but I was getting used to it) Drow -Vile Chemist

I am at level 3 almost level 4. I and soloing every mission so far. Clearing large groups in a couple seconds. You have access to 20 sec armor buff Spell "Can not think of the name". For me its a 1 2 3... hurl a potion wait for agro then poison chop and smash AOE. Granted I have buffed AC and creatures are not spell spamming me yet.

Poison weapon (Short Sword to take advantage of all +1 +1 aspects of Chemist and Drow)

Fire for viles and bombs. (seems more effective then the electric versions at low level)


Edit I was over 30 AC in a robe (level 4) ...granted its 20 seconds but that's a brick house of armor for if you can kill fast enough.

Bjond
02-15-2020, 04:30 PM
I've played monk thrower lives a long time ago. The slowness in starting is kinda expected

If you try to play as a thrower sub-20 before Whirling Wrists, expect to have "bad" DPS in the very best case. Expect "mediocre" DPS 20~28. A monk thrower doesn't become "nice" DPS until L29 with a lot of DEX gear. It will be MUCH worse for Alchemist. BTW, I too, tried to level as a thrower from L1 and ended up melee'ing until Whirling Wrists.

They removed the 2xDEX|INT = Doubleshot feature for Alchemist that made it a decent thrower on Lamannia. That's the key component that makes monk thrower good DPS. Without that, Alchemist can never be a thrower unless it splashes monk, hypes DEX, and uses shuriken. You're simply doomed to bad thrower DPS forever -- advise swapping to dagger/vistani instead.

Montegue
02-16-2020, 12:20 AM
Level 7, and it's still like pulling teeth to play.

I have too few available spells. My mana runs out very quickly. My spells often bounce (or do half damage). Only one attack SLA. Halfway decent crowd control, but nothing to capitalize on it with. I definitely feel like a burden to my group. Enhancements don't seem to be significant gains in power.

Ugh. This is going to be the worst Racial TR life. I hope they retool the class. Right now, it's really not worth the trouble.

Sir_L0LL0
02-16-2020, 12:18 PM
The answer is: it's balanced

kmoustakas
02-16-2020, 01:47 PM
Switch to inquisitor/harper until level 15 or so with a simple xbow. I am not even trolling. Even better, take artificer 1,2 then multiclass to alchemist.

Or, do undead only quests and use sunflasks if you have a ton. I miss tornadoes

Montegue
02-16-2020, 10:40 PM
The answer is: it's balanced

Heh. That may be the forthcoming answer, but it's horrifyingly not.

Zretch
02-17-2020, 11:24 AM
All arcanes are bad at low levels. A big difference is that other arcanes (wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks) have Master's Touch at level 1, allowing them to just pick up a great axe and swing it until they get APs enough for SLAs, level 3 so you can have both max and empower, and some headroom so you can start running quests 2 levels over.

BTW, running quests 2 levels over at low levels is a MASSIVE advantage for arcanes. Popping those daily dice roll chicklets at the start of your next level to get to 3, rather than during your leveling, means you're casting spells at CL3 rather than CL1. That's triple damage. Another difference between Wizard/Sorc and Alchemist is Wizard/Sorc can use a Robe of Duality. At level 2, you can be casting your burning hands/acid spray at CL5. Doing level 1 quests with mobs that have level 1 hitpoints, you're going to feel far more powerful than trying to cast longish cooldown spells at CL1 in a level 1 dungeon with no master's touch so absolute garbage melee to suppliment between cooldowns.

This doesn't mean alchemist needs tuning. It's OK for classes to be slow starters and strong finishers (and it seems like Alchemist hits their best CC spell at spell level 4 (level 8) and their best DD spell at spell level 5 (level 12), which is much sooner than wizards (both at spell level 9, level 17) or sorcerer (again spell level 9, level 18). Add to that the pyrite reaction buffs that scale off of Alchemist levels, and it's a class that ramps surprisingly well. At level 6, I was seriously considering muxing my build. At level 9, Flash Freeze was a game changer and by level 12, I was all in on hitting 20 before TRing into a different form of Alchemist.

At low levels, hire a Byron, get to 3/4 as fast as you can, and start running 2 levels over until you get the spells and spell slots (alchemist starts off with a very, very limited spell slot progression) that really start to make the class work.

Montegue
02-17-2020, 06:11 PM
All arcanes are bad at low levels. A big difference is that other arcanes (wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks) have Master's Touch at level 1, allowing them to just pick up a great axe and swing it until they get APs enough for SLAs, level 3 so you can have both max and empower, and some headroom so you can start running quests 2 levels over.

Between my three characters, I have 4 Wizard, 3 Sorc, 2 Warlock lives played, and several Wizard Epic lives played. None of them ever felt this weak, this slow to play, this frustrating (with the possible exception of a cleric caster life, which I forgot to list above. So add 3 Cleric lives).



BTW, running quests 2 levels over at low levels is a MASSIVE advantage for arcanes. Popping those daily dice roll chicklets at the start of your next level to get to 3, rather than during your leveling, means you're casting spells at CL3 rather than CL1. That's triple damage. Another difference between Wizard/Sorc and Alchemist is Wizard/Sorc can use a Robe of Duality. At level 2, you can be casting your burning hands/acid spray at CL5. Doing level 1 quests with mobs that have level 1 hitpoints, you're going to feel far more powerful than trying to cast longish cooldown spells at CL1 in a level 1 dungeon with no master's touch so absolute garbage melee to suppliment between cooldowns.

Even without the Robe, which I only just recently obtained, it's horrifyingly worse to play a low level Alchemist than any other Arcane class.



This doesn't mean alchemist needs tuning. It's OK for classes to be slow starters and strong finishers (and it seems like Alchemist hits their best CC spell at spell level 4 (level 8) and their best DD spell at spell level 5 (level 12), which is much sooner than wizards (both at spell level 9, level 17) or sorcerer (again spell level 9, level 18). Add to that the pyrite reaction buffs that scale off of Alchemist levels, and it's a class that ramps surprisingly well. At level 6, I was seriously considering muxing my build. At level 9, Flash Freeze was a game changer and by level 12, I was all in on hitting 20 before TRing into a different form of Alchemist.

My Alchemist is now level 12, and it is *COMICALLY* better than it was. It's like angels started singing and I could play DDO again and contribute to the group. But it shouldn't take over half a heroic life to feel like a hero.

The class' progression is broken, it needs more spell points early on, and it needs more interesting spells (and a mechanic that doesn't require you to cast three spells to use an enhancement). Also, a lot fewer bugs (which are to be expected, but man are there a lot of them right now).

MeliCat
02-17-2020, 10:56 PM
Far out... was just about to post a similar thread... I'm level 8, just picked up my twink slavers... and oh wow this is painful... i mean if it was a wiz life (this is about to be my FIRST EVA comp... i am a SUPER slow TRer...) i would play it sorc like... but you can't here really... so it's just paiiiin-ful... I am trying the vile alch + vistanni... just... yuck... Went gnome so colour spray is nice. This char is a caster so a lot of DC PL. Someone said it gets better around 12?

capsela
02-17-2020, 11:03 PM
The answer is: it's balanced

Yeah, they balanced it right into the garbage. Competing with cleric for the worst trees in the game atm. Cleric still has alchemist beat but only by a hair.

enkka1
02-17-2020, 11:53 PM
If you really have the past lives not bad at all. You have to play old school really-conservative-with-sp style with the nice twitch that not much hit you cause all that AC from past lives.
Fire savant sorc gets scorch after 20 aps as a sla. With alchemist you need to level to 12 for another dps sla. So run , jump around, gather mobs and kill em with cindersmoke. Before level
10 can't even do that cause not enough spell power so finish em off even with your faithful scepter.

Have to get all the sp can so as a caster and alchemist feats maximise, then empower, quicken, accelerate spell, mental thougness. This time those 120 from past lives count and kinda need
a purple ioun stone for +200 sp.

Zretch
02-18-2020, 09:50 AM
Between my three characters, I have 4 Wizard, 3 Sorc, 2 Warlock lives played, and several Wizard Epic lives played. None of them ever felt this weak, this slow to play, this frustrating (with the possible exception of a cleric caster life, which I forgot to list above. So add 3 Cleric lives).



Even without the Robe, which I only just recently obtained, it's horrifyingly worse to play a low level Alchemist than any other Arcane class.



My Alchemist is now level 12, and it is *COMICALLY* better than it was. It's like angels started singing and I could play DDO again and contribute to the group. But it shouldn't take over half a heroic life to feel like a hero.

The class' progression is broken, it needs more spell points early on, and it needs more interesting spells (and a mechanic that doesn't require you to cast three spells to use an enhancement). Also, a lot fewer bugs (which are to be expected, but man are there a lot of them right now).

What did you do for your level 2 spell? I took the Poison Vial spell, threw 13 points into the Vile Chemist tree to get the AoE immunity break, and threw on a Nullification/Neg Lore ring. Between Poison Vial, Vial Smash: Acid, and Vial Smash: Fire, I could take down groups with 3 button pushes and 12 total mana. Anything that survived was at very low health and I was able to melee them with a hit or two of a simple weapon (holy everbright club I use for oozes and skeles) along with the VC imbue. Alchemist could use better AoE variety in the level 2 spells. 4 single target spells (one per element) and the AoE poison pretty much traps you into going poison until you get level 3 spells, forcing you to get to tier 3 VC because so many of the low level content is poison immune (skeles, ghouls, ghasts, wights, oozes, dretches (KOTB), etc). Catacombs alone is wall to wall poison immune.

And yes, Multi-vial on top of immunity breaking tier 5 at level 12 when combined with flash freeze is ludicrous mode.

Montegue
02-18-2020, 02:18 PM
What did you do for your level 2 spell? I took the Poison Vial spell, threw 13 points into the Vile Chemist tree to get the AoE immunity break, and threw on a Nullification/Neg Lore ring. Between Poison Vial, Vial Smash: Acid, and Vial Smash: Fire, I could take down groups with 3 button pushes and 12 total mana. Anything that survived was at very low health and I was able to melee them with a hit or two of a simple weapon (holy everbright club I use for oozes and skeles) along with the VC imbue. Alchemist could use better AoE variety in the level 2 spells. 4 single target spells (one per element) and the AoE poison pretty much traps you into going poison until you get level 3 spells, forcing you to get to tier 3 VC because so many of the low level content is poison immune (skeles, ghouls, ghasts, wights, oozes, dretches (KOTB), etc). Catacombs alone is wall to wall poison immune.

And yes, Multi-vial on top of immunity breaking tier 5 at level 12 when combined with flash freeze is ludicrous mode.

I think I used the AOE poison spell. My initial plan was to try a thrower build, so I took the throwing feat at first level. It became PLAIN to me that I wouldn't be able to kill squat like that, so I swapped out for Meta magic feats and stuck with Bombardier. I focused on Acid spells - I have three past Iconic Deep Gnome lives (so bonus Acid spell power), and Acid is the energy type I figured would work against the largest amount of people. My sub-spec is Apothecary (I was tempted by the bugged Tier two enhancement, and fully meta'd heal spells are nice when I'm doing EE solo and in a group).

AlmGhandi
02-18-2020, 02:21 PM
So, I racial TR'd for my second Drow life, thought I'd give the new class a whirl... and holy **** is it bad to play at level one - easily the weakest class I've played so far. Casting times are super slow, spells hit for nothing, no armor to speak of, no martial weapons or way of using them..

I feel *super* weak right now. What are people doing for the class? The casting times for the AOE damage spells are really long (and the stuns).

We just had a double daily dice weekend...……

Couple of gold rolls.... couple of levels.
No risk, no fun! :)

Chai
02-19-2020, 11:29 AM
Its a high skill floor class that can delete groups of mobs once it gets a few levels under its belt. Managing reactions is not catching on in this community, for obvious reasons.

Onkush
02-19-2020, 03:23 PM
I am now level 7. Yes, I die A LOT! My Alchemist is very squishy. My problems have been targeting mobs. I will target something, then start throwing, and the mob will be untargeted, and I will just throw and hit the ground. This wastes spell points, which a few times ran out of without any shrines, and had to bail out of dungeons.
Not enough spells. At level 7, I can only use four spells from lv 1, 3 from lv 2 spells, and 2 spells from level 3 spells. You need restoration for negative levels, but have to sacrifice that for the heal.
Alchemist for me is extremely challenging. I love it though because I love the challenge. I still would like to know how a few on my server had a 30 Alchemist the day after the release!

Zarkarion
02-19-2020, 03:28 PM
I still would like to know how a few on my server had a 30 Alchemist the day after the release!

Otto’s Box

magaiti
02-19-2020, 05:11 PM
I still would like to know how a few on my server had a 30 Alchemist the day after the release!
+20 Lesser Heart of Wood

lillentle
02-20-2020, 07:47 AM
Can't help but use a xbow until level 6 or so, just not enough spells. But that's normally best damage for most casters. First life I stayed xbow till like 14, but this second life I've switched to casting nice and early, really love it. Blitzing every party, have to run at least r2 otherwise it's who ever is fastest, it's like when me and my guildie ran sorc lives together.

Air sorcs chain lightning is probably still faster and will equally one shot on r1, but alchemists run faster so the sorc won't get any kills.

I'm not sure what you guys are missing, try to take more advantage of being in pyrite and even the reactions. You should be able to one/two shot everything by level 8, by level 12 you can put maximize on for every spell, then you'll be even more powerful.

It's as powerful as warlock when it first came out. But more versatile.