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droid327
04-06-2019, 02:16 PM
This is something I was wondering on Lama but never got a chance to test it out...and I wont get to until I unlock Inqui on live next month, so maybe some enterprising whal--er, early-adopter can help :)

How much actual ROF bonus do you get while NHB is active? The base ROF on DXB is already pretty good. Testing on Lama I didnt feel as much of a difference - though its hard to tell without the thwips like RXB has.

Does NHB always give the same percentile increase to attack speed, or is it inversely proportional to your Alacrity? That is, if you have more Alacrity, does NHB become less of an increase? From what I understand, NHB/EF removes the reload cycle, while Alacrity shortens the firing cycle - so they *should* combine fairly additively...but of course in DDO, "should" is cheap :D

Hjarki
04-06-2019, 07:01 PM
I ran some preliminary tests on a Level 15 Bard, both Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload:

Number of bolts consumed over 20 sec:
Skill Boost: 44
Skill Boost + 30% Alacrity: 50
Skill Boost + 30% Alacrity + 10% Doubleshot: 54
Skill Boost + 30% Alacrity + 10% Doubleshot + Haste: 59
Haste Boost + 10% Doubleshot = 56
Haste Boost + 10% Doubleshot + Haste = 56
Haste Boost + 30% Alacrity + 10% Doubleshot = 60
Haste Boost + 30% Alacrity + 10% Doubleshot + Haste = 60
Doubleshot Boost: 56
Doubleshot Boost + 30% Alacrity: 65
Doubleshot Boost + 30% Alacrity + 10% Doubleshot: 72
Doubleshot Boost + 30% Alacrity + 10% Doubleshot + Haste = 65

Number of bolts consumed over 18 sec:
NHB + 10% Doubleshot: 77
NHB + 30% Alacrity + 10% Doubleshot: 77
NHB + 30% Alacrity + 10% Doubleshot + Haste = 77

Some observations:
- Haste spell. This was really strange. It doesn't appear to stack with Haste Boost or NHB at all. It actually subtracts speed with Doubleshot Boost. I'm a bit flummoxed by this one.
- Alacrity. This yields about half the listed benefit (no surprise there). The surprise is that it doesn't appear to stack with NHB, which makes NHB significantly less powerful than it would seem on paper.
- Haste Boost. This is trash for a ranged build and stacking concerns were discussed above.
- Doubleshot. With the exception of the Haste spell wrinkle above, this worked exactly as I expected.
- No Holds Barred. The "does not stack with any form of Haste" surprised me. However, even without gaining the benefit from haste, it's still generating the best raw ROF.

I also ran BAB tests using Divine Power to test the difference between BAB 10 and BAB 14 (different character). I found no difference under either no Action Boost or NHB. This is inconsistent with ranged combat results (which are admittedly from almost a decade ago), but consistent with melee combat results (from the same far distant past). Further testing is warranted.

I also didn't test EF vs. NHB, Inquisitive vs. RXB vs. GXB or varying the ranged feats.

Hjarki
04-07-2019, 07:29 AM
Using single Light Crossbow only:
LXB: 19
LXB + RS: 20
LXB + RR: 24

Using Double Light Crossbows:
DXB: 30
DXB + RR: 40
DXB + RS: 36
DXB + 30% + RS: 40

This seems to imply that 'double Crossbows' isn't actually double speed, but more like 150% speed. Rapid Reload seems to give ~33% better performance, while Rapid Shot seems to give ~20% better performance (Rapid Shot didn't seem to meaningfully impact the solo Light Crossbow for some reason).

The various No Holds Barred tests (remember, all NHB tests have 10% Doubleshot):
NHB: 53
NHB + RR: 68
NHB + 30% + RR:71
NHB + 30%:77
NHB + 30% + Haste:77
NHB + 30% + RS:77

These results confused me. If you've got both NHB and Alacrity, having Rapid Shot/Rapid Reload doesn't seem to do anything. Having Rapid Shot alone doesn't do anything. Having Rapid Reload alone subtracts from your attack rate. I can't think of any good reason why that would be. There might be some sort of attack rate caps at work here, but it might require a wider level range to figure that out.

Gabrael
04-07-2019, 08:10 AM
my understanding is that since fusillade/NHB ability essentially remove the reload itself, feat that shorten the reload animation won't affect it, and my testing with great x-bow build a year ago let me to believe only alacrity and BAB stuff boosted the rate of fire during a fusillade moment, and not even by a huge margin. but outside of that, all these feats and alacrity stuff greatly improved normal fighting.

Tilomere
04-10-2019, 03:00 AM
Just testing on dragonborn, 15% AS, 16 BaB, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, Quick Draw

# of bolts fired in 1 minute, divided by (1+doubleshot % (1/3 DS for repeating))

1 Heavy Crossbow No AP spent 90
1 Repeating Light Crossbow No AP spent 151
1 Repeating Light Crossbow No AP spent + haste boostx3 171
(untested Mechanical Reloader will probably improve RLXBow by 3.3% and heavy or GXbows by 10%, GXB should be about the same as heavy crossbow)

Inquisitor
3 AP spent Dual Crossbows 141
3 AP spent Dual Crossbows haste boost 163
Dual Crossbows + Inq. Path Auto attack 150
Dual Crossbows + Inq. Path Auto attack + haste boost x3 in LD 173
Dual Crossbows + Inq. Path No Holds Barredx3 in LD 197

The dual wield crossbows don't operating independently like TWF. It seems to be a change from the standard aim - attack - reload, to a new dual aim - dual attack - reload - reload.

As a result, the offhand will add twice as many bolts per attack, but the time per cycle will be slower due to additional reload time.

Haste boost appears to affect aim - double attack, and as such provide 50% of its listed bonus in terms of auto attack rate of fire. So 30% haste boost is 15% actual rate of fire increase.

Inquisitor's Path 30% alacrity appears to only affect double attack, and as such provides 25% of its listed bonus or 7.5% increased auto attack rate of fire.

No Holds Barred is a faster but not eliminated reload - reload, and is overall twice as effective as haste boost, so is ~30% actual rate of fire increase.

In heroics, where you don't have much ranged power or double shot, ranged power or double-shot boost are both superior to haste boost, and close to equal to No Holds Barred.

Dual crossbows have inferior base rate of fire to repeaters levels 1-11, but repeaters have 1/3 doubleshot so don't scale as well 12-30.

Dual Crossbows have slightly slower base rate of fire to repeaters levels 12-30, but have the advantage of full doubleshot and overtake repeaters due to doubleshot at level 12+ on a well built/geared toon (see following posts).

Untested, but Mechanical Reloader is probably 1/3 of 10% or 3.3% faster auto attack rate for repeaters due to aim - triple attack - reload and only affecting the triple attack portion.

Armor of Speed is bugged and does not affect repeating crossbows. I'm pretty sure haste/blinding speed does work on everything.

Hjarki
04-10-2019, 04:06 AM
Dual crossbows have inferior base rate of fire to repeaters levels 1-11, but repeaters have 1/3 doubleshot so don't scale as well 12-30.

Dual Crossbows have roughly equal base rate of fire to repeaters levels 12-30, but have the advantage of full doubleshot.

From my testing, it takes ~35% doubleshot before Dual Crossbows catch up to repeaters.

Tilomere
04-10-2019, 01:11 PM
From my testing, it takes ~35% doubleshot before Dual Crossbows catch up to repeaters.

Ya that's level 12 with the 10% doubleshot from tier 5, 5% from tier 4, 5% from silent avenger, 5% gear, 9% past lives, 2% ship.

Pilgrim1
04-14-2019, 01:02 AM
These are some numbers from my testing. All where tested on my lvl 30 toon in LD (21 BAB). Female Elf.
Constrained to have 12% doublestrike on all tests (guild buffs). Single Run’s only.

Tests:

Greater xbow

Fusilade:
85 - 30% alacrity, blinding speed, rapid reload, rapid shot, tensers
71 - 30% alacrity, blinding speed, rapid reload, rapid shot
Damage boost:
34 - 30% alacrity, blinding speed, rapid reload, rapid shot, tensers
33 - 30% alacrity, blinding speed, rapid reload, rapid shot
No holds barried
95 - 30% alacrity, blinding speed, rapid reload, rapid shot, tenser
74 - 30% alacrity, blinding speed, rapid reload, rapid shot

2 xbows:

Fusilade:
71 - 30% alacrity, blinding speed, rapid reload, rapid shot, tenser
71 - 30% alacrity, blinding speed, rapid reload, rapid shot
Damage boost:
64 - 30% alacrity, blinding speed, rapid reload, rapid shot, tensers
61 - 30% alacrity, blinding speed, rapid reload, rapid shot
No holds barred:
72 - 30% alacrity, blinding speed, rapid reload, rapid shot, tenser
74 - 30% alacrity, blinding speed, rapid reload, rapid shot
Skill boost:
67 - 30% alacrity, blinding speed, rapid reload, rapid shot, tenser
62 - 30% alacrity, blinding speed, rapid reload, rapid shot

Note* fusilade and no holds barred performed identically in mechanics. When using 2 xbows the boosts only lasted 18 seconds (with no start time) however the skill/damage boosts lasted 20 seconds. So add 1/10th of the damage boost numbers 6.5 to the no holds barred.

I was quite disappointed with the results of using 2 xbows. The gains from using no holds barred are rather slim.

Tilomere
04-14-2019, 01:23 AM
Greater xbow
95 - 30% alacrity, blinding speed, rapid reload, rapid shot, tenser, No holds barried

2 xbows:
72 - 30% alacrity, blinding speed, rapid reload, rapid shot, tenser, No holds barried

I was quite disappointed with the results of using 2 xbows. The gains from using no holds barred are rather slim.


Mmm, so clear best use of inquisitor appears to be with a great xbow and core 5 mechanic for +2 multiplier. You will get 30% more attacks than with dual wield crossbows, the attacks will each hit harder with double [w], and have a better crit range and multiplier. Plus Volley (https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Volley,_Arbalest_of_the_Damned)is the end-all be-all ranged weapon.

18 rogue/ 2 x w/ Volley

31 AP Mechanic Core 5
35 Inquisitor core 5, tier5
8 Harper
3 TA fast movement
0 (11 racial) Dragonborn (action boosts)

I'm torn between a barbarian level for 10% move speed and a rune arm.

So really the only use of dual wield crossbows is if you make a FoTW build to have 4 adrenaline shots per use. NHB seems to be straight up better than fusillade in that it doesn't have a wind up.

Pilgrim1
04-14-2019, 09:40 AM
Mmm, so clear best use of inquisitor appears to be with a great xbow and core 5 mechanic for +2 multiplier. You will get 30% more attacks than with dual wield crossbows, the attacks will each hit harder with double [w], and have a better crit range and multiplier. Plus Volley (https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Volley,_Arbalest_of_the_Damned)is the end-all be-all ranged weapon.

That is a possibility worth looking into. Im not sure that that setup gets more damage then the classic t5 mechanic style however. Im not so sure about the 2 sets of numbers with greater xbow. They seam much to large of a spread for just doubleshot variations. If i have time today ill run multiple tests, see how they fare.

2 points that might still favor duel xbows, first there is no setup time for NHB so you get 2 extra seconds of shooting with 2 xbows then with great xbow. And secondly double-shot is counted twice for 2 xbows. I think end game your looking at 70ish double shot.

One thing that these nu,bers show me is that with a great xbow NhB is a huge increase in dps, while its a small increase for duel xbows. Thus the reliance on extra action boosts may be less nessasry.

Hjarki
04-14-2019, 12:40 PM
That is a possibility worth looking into. Im not sure that that setup gets more damage then the classic t5 mechanic style however. Im not so sure about the 2 sets of numbers with greater xbow. They seam much to large of a spread for just doubleshot variations. If i have time today ill run multiple tests, see how they fare.

I can't see how T5 mechanic wins the comparison here. Both T5's give +10% doubleshot and +30% ranged alacrity. The Sneak Attack/Double Vorpal is counterbalanced by the Law dice, extra ranged power and automatic fortification bypass.

Your numbers (for the dual crossbows) seem to mostly jibe with mine.


2 points that might still favor duel xbows, first there is no setup time for NHB so you get 2 extra seconds of shooting with 2 xbows then with great xbow. And secondly double-shot is counted twice for 2 xbows. I think end game your looking at 70ish double shot.

I'm not sure what you're talking about with setup time here. However, your notion of "double-shot is counted twice" isn't actually the case. If you fire 70 bolts without Doubleshot, you'll fire 140 bolts with 100% Doubleshot - no matter what type of crossbow you're using. There's no scaling advantage to twin Crossbows.


One thing that these nu,bers show me is that with a great xbow NhB is a huge increase in dps, while its a small increase for duel xbows. Thus the reliance on extra action boosts may be less nessasry.

True - I saw the same thing. It also leads me to believe that the Inquisitive tree is a lot weaker than people believe. Throughout much of heroic levels, you're better off with Repeating Crossbows - you can get a minor advantage for pouring all your points into Inquisitive if you assume those AP did nothing for your Repeating X-bow.

The Rogue approach seems to build itself: 41 Inquisitive, 31 Mechanic, 8 Harper. The most obvious approach here would be 18/2 Rogue/Artificer so you'd get Rune-arms (but no AP respent in Artificer). The pay-off for this approach should be enormous in LD. You'll be getting 2.2x from critical damage with blunted ammunition. However, you'll be stuck with 8 Action Boosts + filigrees. So you'd be alternating between "sniper mode" (slow, massive shot) and "machine gun mode" (rapid fire for significant damage). I think this won't be much of a problem, but it might be - you've only got 2:40 worth of (roughly continuous) "machine gun mode" so you have to made it count. The knockdown won't be as nice, but I never found it to be particularly useful anyway. Deep Gnome seems the obvious choice here, although you won't be able to effectively use Color Spray without Heighten.

In theory, you could also run with 20 Ranger (41 DWS, 31 Falconry, just enough Inq for conjure bolts/dual crossbows). However, this would require some testing - you lose some dps from not having NHB or +1 critical multiplier, but you'd gain a lot back from helpless damage (against trash) and the DWS T5. And, of course, if you found a big enough room, you'd have the ultimate defense of "too far away for anyone else to even see you" - the combination of being a Wisdom-based Ranger who can Spot anything and unlimited range on Sneak Attack/Point Blank Shot means you'd really want to set your render distance to maximum. Scourge is a decent choice if you've got the racial AP. However, Deep Gnome has the same bonus to Wisdom and is a small race.

If you're willing to put up with the nuisance, you can also run 20 Fighter (41 Kensai, T5 Inq) but that means scrolling Insightful damage. The major drawbacks would be the lack of Sneak Attack and Know the Angles, but you've got piles of Ranged Power/Doubleshot and Action Boosts. You also get a chunk of Ranged Power from feats.

Pilgrim1
04-14-2019, 01:32 PM
In swashbuckler there is a doubleshot boost. Its the only one outside of reaper trees. I havent yet done the numbers but with 2 xbows the increase in bolts might be similar to no holds barred.

From the description of different tack even if you swashbuckle i dont thing you can get a damage modifier to your xbow since its single weapon fighting. If you could that would open up dex to damage and hit.

Your point about doublestrike is spot on.

For people who will still play the 10/6/4 great xbow split i think droping 3 AP into inquisitive for 2 xbows is a really good idea for sustained damage.

mikarddo
04-14-2019, 01:33 PM
Is it WAI that NHB works with GxB? The text for NHB indicates that it works only with Light and Heavy non-repeaters so I am surprised to see it working with GxB as well.

Hjarki
04-14-2019, 04:18 PM
In swashbuckler there is a doubleshot boost. Its the only one outside of reaper trees. I havent yet done the numbers but with 2 xbows the increase in bolts might be similar to no holds barred.

It's not. I ran the numbers early in the post. It should work out roughly the same as Ranged Power boost (you have less Doublestrike so adding +30% has more impact, but you've got a lot of 150%/200% benefits from Ranged Power).


From the description of different tack even if you swashbuckle i dont thing you can get a damage modifier to your xbow since its single weapon fighting. If you could that would open up dex to damage and hit.

Nope, you can't - and that pretty much kills any rationale for taking "can Swashbuckle with Crossbows".

I did run a FvS/Bard/Wizard 12/7/1 build that used Dual Crossbows. However, it wasn't based on damage but rather on being a support character who could stand off at range to deliver damage. So I took Favored Weapon from the multi-selector and put my T5 in Spellsinger rather than Inquisitive.


For people who will still play the 10/6/4 great xbow split i think droping 3 AP into inquisitive for 2 xbows is a really good idea for sustained damage.

I think the 18/2 discussed above probably obsoletes that build. When NHB is active, it should do significantly more damage (more Sneak Attack, Law Dice, extra critical multiplier, Know the Angles). While NHB isn't active, you can just switch to conventional Heavy Crossbows and use Ranged Power boost.

Tilomere
04-14-2019, 05:26 PM
Is it WAI that NHB works with GxB? The text for NHB indicates that it works only with Light and Heavy non-repeaters so I am surprised to see it working with GxB as well.

Wiki text is wrong, in game text supports any crossbow, including repeating and great.

Jetrule
04-14-2019, 05:34 PM
Thanks for all the testing guys. I have been testing as I go and slowly level Its great to have access to these numbers.

Pilgrim1
04-15-2019, 02:01 AM
law dice don't apply to greater xbows. Only heavy/light.

Pilgrim1
04-16-2019, 06:15 PM
Ok, I made a real effort at doing a run of this.

lvl 30 male deep gnome (wizard)
30 BAB (thanks to knights transformation)
rapid shot
rapid reload
Haste spell *note haste only gives 15% attack rate to ranged instead of 22 according to the combat log*
30% alacrity (t5 inquisitor)
0% double shot (thanks to epic defensive fighting)
LD destiny


test system:
attack the ships magefire canon with auto attack.
Spam the action boost so the there is no delay between one and the next.
use the action boost 10 times in a row to lower any small variations.

NHB greater xbow (not proficient - don't think it should matter)
666 bolts fired. 66 bolts/20 seconds.

NHB xbow
708 bolts fired. 70 bolts/20 seconds.*

haste boost xbow
582 bolts fired. 58 bolts/20 seconds.

attack boost xbow
480 bolts fired. 48 bolts/20 seconds.

*After NHB finished its 18 seconds i would auto attack for 2 more seconds waiting for the next action boost to come off cooldown. Thus this number is inflated compared to the greater xbow which can only attack for 18 seconds but is consistent for shots fired over 20 seconds.

In this test i was looking for attack rate at end game. As some have posted above its questionable if all of the feats are necessary or the lvl 30 BAB. Ill let other's figure out that detail. I don't believe there is a functional difference between blinding speed and spell haste, but i could be wrong. Does anyone know definitively? I also didn't look into repeaters because, to my knowledge, they are sub par at cap due to double shot only working 1/3ed of the time.

Pilgrim1
04-16-2019, 07:28 PM
Some thoughts following the above information.

*in order to justify great xbows into a NHB rotation they will have to do significantly more damage per shot then an xbow.

*haste boost will generate a 20% increase in DPS regardless of other factors.
* damage boost will provide less and less benifits to dps the more ranged power you have. I havent done the math but i think the ranged power cutoff is rather low. For almost everyone haste boost is more dps then power boost.
* 30% dobleshot boost gives 15 more shots over 20 seconds. Haste boost gives 15 more shots when you get 50% double shot. Haste boost is stronger.

*NHB is about 20% better than haste boost.

droid327
04-18-2019, 01:04 PM
Ugh I'll be very disappointed if the numbers just devolve back to "GXB master race" and it turns out it just made Mech stronger....

I almost hope they make NHB not work with GXB just so Inqui doesnt become a straight upgrade to current Mech builds. Or at least tweak it so that DXB gets proportionally more out of NHB.

Tilomere
04-19-2019, 11:29 PM
Ugh I'll be very disappointed if the numbers just devolve back to "GXB master race" and it turns out it just made Mech stronger....

I almost hope they make NHB not work with GXB just so Inqui doesnt become a straight upgrade to current Mech builds.


So universal trees have to be weaker than primary dps trees of dps classes, or we would end up with self-healing clerics dealing more or the same damage as rogue assassins. As such, the highest dps builds using universal trees will always be primary dps classes using universal trees to supplement their main dps trees, and not using universal trees as primary dps trees.

If inquisitor doesn't support GXB, inquisitor will be dumped, and the GXB primary dps trees will be retained (mech and BE) for maximum dps. Just like last expansion when they removed VKF versatility from supporting GXB (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/492495-The-Supreme-Monkter), it just meant people dumped VKF, and swapped over to endless fusillade builds instead.

janave
04-20-2019, 05:08 AM
Now I regret giving out my Volley drops :)

Pilgrim1
05-07-2019, 11:57 PM
testing the effect of rapid reload and rapid shot.

level 30 toon, teifling male. 30 BAB (via tensers), haste via haste pot. 30% alacrity from inquisitive. Duel heavy crossbows. LD destiny. Deffensive combat on so 0% double shot.

Method: equip stack of 1000 bolts. Trigger action boost, spam action boost on cooldown so it stays constant. Repeat for 5 iterations.

No Feets:
186 bolts fired - 37 bolts/20 seconds - Attack boost.
216 bolts fired - 43 bolts/20 seconds - Haste boost.
348 bolts fired - 70 bolts/20 seconds - No hold bared.

With Rapid reload:
246 bolts fired - 50 bolts/20 seconds - Attack boost. *tested twice!!
258 bolts fired - 51 bolts/20 seconds - Haste boost.
348 bolts fired - 70 bolts/20 seconds - No hold bared.

With Rapid Shot:
214 bolts fired - 43 bolts/20 seconds - Attack boost.
232 bolts fired - 46 bolts/20 seconds - Haste boost.
346 bolts fired - 69 bolts/20 seconds - No hold bared.

With Rapid reload and rapid shot (from previous test):
48 bolts/20 seconds - Attack boost.
58 bolts/20 seconds - Haste boost.
70 bolts/20 seconds - No hold bared.

Conclusions:
1) feats have no impact on no holds bared. I would assume this means that both rapid shot and rapid reload only effect the reload animation rather than the attack animation.
2) Rapid reload Has a much bigger impact on bolts then rapid shot does.
3) taking rapid shot and rapid reload reduces or has no effect (rounding errors maybe?) on your non-boosted attack rate.
4) If your planning on only using no holds bared and running in LD you could save 2 feats (this might be applicable to great crossbows to). If you never pick up haste boost and supplement your no holds barred with damage boost then you should drop rapid shot and keep rapid reload.
5) haste boost is the only action boost which seams to benefit from running rapid shot AND rapid reload.