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Chacka_DDO
11-18-2018, 06:34 PM
The idea is quite simple, if you enter a quest below your character level you get a certain amount of penalty based on the numbers of levels you are above the quest level.
Of course ideally, you get some kind of character "roll back" where you have exactly the character stats you had at this level.
For this, the game has to "memorize" how the character was at a certain level and the items you ware have to scale down to the right level. This is certainly possible but needs a lot of work for the development.

But a kind of level drain where you loose certain power is maybe easier to implement than that.
This way you lose a certain amount of your Hit Points, BAB, spell DC etc. so that your character is at the end not stronger (if not weaker) as a character at the right quest level.

The reason for this is simple, this way it is way easier to play together in DDO because the whole group and the higher level character can get full reward for a quest and it has no downside if a higher level character wants to join a lower level group.

NemesisAlien
11-18-2018, 06:37 PM
And how would they sell their iconics like that?

Kaboom2112
11-18-2018, 06:56 PM
There aren't words in the English language that can properly describe how stupid this idea is.

Chacka_DDO
11-18-2018, 11:15 PM
And how would they sell their iconics like that?

The point is that you are able to join a lower level group without harming the experience of your group if your character is above the quest level
Therefore there is no contradiction in general with iconic characters.

I suggest here that you lower your character level or accept a level drain only if you want it but I can even imagine that this is something that always applies so you cannot do any quest with an overpowered character (e.g. farming lvl 6 items with a full power lvl 30 character).
And, I know not everyone will like this idea foremost if it is something forced but other games I know also reward you with nothing if you do certain quests or slay monsters far below your character level (no experience and foremost no item reward).

The main goal of this is to make it easier to group with each other and remove the demand of leaving groups when you hit the hard cap for your experience points but the group still wants to do quests with full reaper and normal exp bonuses.
With such a change you just take your level but you can still remain in your group, all you need is to accept that your character doesn't get the power you normally would get with the next character level.

Of course, a lot demand for this would be removed if we would not have this experience points cap but I doubt this will be removed so this might be another way with the additional benefit that it works even if you already took your level.

mikarddo
11-19-2018, 01:02 AM
The idea is good - but level drain in DDO does so very little. Having higher level gear, feats, enhancements etc still makes you far stronger.
So, it would need to scale back gear, disable feats taken at a higher level and somehow also disable the extra enhancements and reaper enhancements which is very difficult.

Chacka_DDO
11-19-2018, 07:57 AM
The idea is good - but level drain in DDO does so very little. Having higher level gear, feats, enhancements etc still makes you far stronger.
So, it would need to scale back gear, disable feats taken at a higher level and somehow also disable the extra enhancements and reaper enhancements which is very difficult.

You are right I just call it level drain because I hope an average DDO player knows then what I mean.
The penalty a player suffer if he enters a quest above the ques level should ideally make him exactly as powerful as a character with the right level.
For this, it would be best if the game would memorize how the character looked like at a certain level and it sets the character back exactly to this status.
And if your items would scale with your character level so also your equipped items are automatically weaker without the need to unequip them.
But as a quicker and easier solution, an effect like the level drain from a spell with additional disadvantages maybe can provide a similar effect.

I know this is not an easy task but I think this could be one step to make it easier to play in DDO together with friends or find groups or help groups without spoiling their reaper and normal exp gain because your character is too high in level.

The already very small player base in DDO is in my opinion too much divided and ideas are needed to change that or at least lessen the problem.

Another step would be to calculate the reaper exp you get differently so it makes even for a level 30 character sense to join a low-level group.
I don't know if it is worth another Suggestion but in my opinion, the reaper experience you gain should be based on the invested time and how difficult a quest is.
Currently, it is way easier to get reaper exp at level 30 because the quests are easier and it is easier to build groups at level 30 (based on my personal experiences).

Sunnie
11-19-2018, 09:28 AM
It would be nice if characters of different levels could be scaled to about the same power-level and play together in the same quests. The problem with that in DDO, however, is that characters are WAY too customiseable with freely distributable stats, feats, past lives, stances, enhancements, multiclassing, and their power doesn't increase evenly from one level to the next, and a lot of gear adds power beyond simply increasing numbers. You just can't easily scale something like 2 Monk/2 Fighter/12 Cleric back to the power they had at level 10. At least not without saving snapshots of the characters progress at different points, and best we know the game doesn't do that.

It works in other games where character progress is linear and the players have very few options for customising their build. In a game like DDO... less so.

HungarianRhapsody
11-19-2018, 09:32 AM
I would love to have some kind of "de-leveling" that we could do to go into lower level quests with friends who are a different level range than ourselves. Or just to get some XP while we clean up quests that we had skipped while leveling.

I don't think it will ever happen, but I would love to see it.

cdbd3rd
11-19-2018, 10:27 AM
Gotta /Not-sign the idea, but the image of a character stepping into an under-level dungeon and all their gear immediately falling off is kinduv amusing. :)

Lonnbeimnech
11-19-2018, 12:38 PM
The point is that you are able to join a lower level group without harming the experience of your group if your character is above the quest level
Therefore there is no contradiction in general with iconic characters.

I suggest here that you lower your character level or accept a level drain only if you want it but I can even imagine that this is something that always applies so you cannot do any quest with an overpowered character (e.g. farming lvl 6 items with a full power lvl 30 character).
And, I know not everyone will like this idea foremost if it is something forced but other games I know also reward you with nothing if you do certain quests or slay monsters far below your character level (no experience and foremost no item reward).

The main goal of this is to make it easier to group with each other and remove the demand of leaving groups when you hit the hard cap for your experience points but the group still wants to do quests with full reaper and normal exp bonuses.
With such a change you just take your level but you can still remain in your group, all you need is to accept that your character doesn't get the power you normally would get with the next character level.

Of course, a lot demand for this would be removed if we would not have this experience points cap but I doubt this will be removed so this might be another way with the additional benefit that it works even if you already took your level.
So I could just run shadow crypt and von 3 straight to cap, nice! Shame about the other 300+ quests in the game tho...

Loromir
11-19-2018, 12:54 PM
So I could just run shadow crypt and von 3 straight to cap, nice! Shame about the other 300+ quests in the game tho...

If you're only going to run 2 quests per day or even those 2 quests twice per day...then yea....go for it. I'm guessing about a month between tr's.

Hobgoblin
11-19-2018, 01:30 PM
There aren't words in the English language that can properly describe how stupid this idea is.

yes there are. but those words lead to anger anger leads to the dark side the dark side leads to banning.

Lonnbeimnech
11-19-2018, 01:41 PM
If you're only going to run 2 quests per day or even those 2 quests twice per day...then yea....go for it. I'm guessing about a month between tr's.

https://i.imgur.com/86FfqLg.gif
...I'm not going to explain farming a quest for xp.

Memnir
11-19-2018, 02:01 PM
The potential bugs involved with implementing this idea make it almost worth pursuing on a purely Schadenfreude-ian level.

Loromir
11-20-2018, 07:18 AM
https://i.imgur.com/86FfqLg.gif
...I'm not going to explain farming a quest for xp.

Not necessary....done it plenty myself. XP ransack will still apply.

Enoach
11-20-2018, 07:51 AM
Not necessary....done it plenty myself. XP ransack will still apply.

Then you are aware there are now 5 difficulties you can run without incurring an xp ransack penalty.
While I agree just running a single quest might not be fast, consider all the "good xp/min" quests in DDO and imagine a person running only those each day. That is where the abuse of the system can come in.

On the OP.


The idea is quite simple, if you enter a quest below your character level you get a certain amount of penalty based on the numbers of levels you are above the quest level.
Of course ideally, you get some kind of character "roll back" where you have exactly the character stats you had at this level.
For this, the game has to "memorize" how the character was at a certain level and the items you ware have to scale down to the right level. This is certainly possible but needs a lot of work for the development.

But a kind of level drain where you loose certain power is maybe easier to implement than that.
This way you lose a certain amount of your Hit Points, BAB, spell DC etc. so that your character is at the end not stronger (if not weaker) as a character at the right quest level.

The reason for this is simple, this way it is way easier to play together in DDO because the whole group and the higher level character can get full reward for a quest and it has no downside if a higher level character wants to join a lower level group.

Questions.

What level are you proposing a person is rolled back to, to meet the quest level - +2 over base level where you are still getting full bonus for the Standard XP, or base level of the quest where you maximize bonuses for Reaper Difficulty?

When "rolling back" a character level how will this effect Multi-class characters? Do they loose levels based on the LIFO. How does spell slots get effected, do they get to pick which spells are no longer available or does the system just eliminate slots from the Left to Right

Loss of level could effect ML requirements. You propose scaling gear, since there are some gear that is more powerful then other gear how do you propose scaling works? By a percentage, straight amount reduced?

Many aspects of "scaling a character back" would require time and decision making by the player, it could be very simple to complex in selections and if implemented upon quest entry would mean a potential of doing this same task on each quest entry. If this process took 10 minutes to do this could mean for some quests the player is locked from the completion area or is ready just as the party is ready to complete the quest. I use 10 minutes as a baseline based on how long it takes me to setup a wizard after taking two levels for spell prep and gear arrangement.

I would point out that having multiple characters at different level ranges is still a valid way to have a character that can allow you to play together with other people without being over level for the quest they are running. I would also point out that if the goal is to run together to have fun and the fact that XP is abundant in DDO that taking the penalty is not as big a deterrent to grouping as some make it out to be.

HungarianRhapsody
11-20-2018, 08:31 AM
Then you are aware there are now 5 difficulties you can run without incurring an xp ransack penalty.
While I agree just running a single quest might not be fast, consider all the "good xp/min" quests in DDO and imagine a person running only those each day. That is where the abuse of the system can come in.

On the OP.


Once you run those 5 difficulties, all of your other runs will have the XP ransack penalty. In other words, you'll have the XP penalty on the overwhelming majority of those runs.

Even with the great XP that VoN3 gives, you're not going to get better XP from yet another run of VoN3 than you'll get from random-generic-quest with the +200 (or more) XP that you get from the many bonuses from once-and-done on Elite or Reaper.

Chacka_DDO
11-20-2018, 10:06 AM
Questions.

What level are you proposing a person is rolled back to, to meet the quest level - +2 over base level where you are still getting full bonus for the Standard XP, or base level of the quest where you maximize bonuses for Reaper Difficulty?

The point is simple, you obviously get not full exp and not full bonuses in a quest when the quest is too easy for your character.
In the current system, it is even worse, only ONE character can already spoil the exp when he enters a quest.
The current system is quite bad and very crude if you seriously think about it.
What I want is that a character who enters a quest gets some kind of penalty that makes it unnecessary that the group gets an exp penalty or loses the bravery bonus.
This penalty can be even that high that a character who enters a quest is weaker as he would normally be when he would have the right level.


When "rolling back" a character level how will this effect Multi-class characters? Do they loose levels based on the LIFO. How does spell slots get effected, do they get to pick which spells are no longer available or does the system just eliminate slots from the Left to Right

As I said Ideally the game would memorize how the character was build at the moment he took his next level and if the items he got currently equipped would scale with the character level.
Then the character would be almost as powerful as he was with the right character level.
But as I said this is an ideal solution and I don't expect that, a penalty similar to a level drain effect could have a sufficient effect


Loss of level could effect ML requirements. You propose scaling gear, since there are some gear that is more powerful then other gear how do you propose scaling works? By a percentage, straight amount reduced?

A lot of item effects basically scale already with your character level, see foremost Cannith Crafting where scaling is basically inherent in the system.
What I want is a DDO with effects that are always created around level scaling and then you can have items that scale with your character level and also such things like I suggest here would be much easier possible.


Many aspects of "scaling a character back" would require time and decision making by the player, it could be very simple to complex in selections and if implemented upon quest entry would mean a potential of doing this same task on each quest entry. If this process took 10 minutes to do this could mean for some quests the player is locked from the completion area or is ready just as the party is ready to complete the quest. I use 10 minutes as a baseline based on how long it takes me to setup a wizard after taking two levels for spell prep and gear arrangement.

Right, as I said it is not an easy task to make it "ideal" therefore a kind of level drain effect could do the job with much less work.
e.g. you could lose with each level above the quest level 10% hp and you do 10% less damage with everything and you lose 3 DC.
You see then it would make almost no sense to join a quest with a character that is like 10 level above the quest level because he would be that weak that he is almost no help at all for the group...
Of course to find the right numbers is WORK and not easy but it is possible.


I would point out that having multiple characters at different level ranges is still a valid way to have a character that can allow you to play together with other people without being over level for the quest they are running. I would also point out that if the goal is to run together to have fun and the fact that XP is abundant in DDO that taking the penalty is not as big a deterrent to grouping as some make it out to be.

my daily practice tells me players leave groups because they are hard capped and the player base in DDO is that small that it is rare that my pick up groups fill.
And another point is that we are just used that you get less exp in a quest because your character is too strong but my solution for this problem is, in my opinion, better because you can do the quest no matter how high your character level is you just only have to accept a penalty.
This gives you simply much more freedom to decide what quest you want to play.

I think it is better when only the character who is too high in level gets a power penalty rather than the whole group gets a exp penalty.

Sunnie
11-21-2018, 07:11 PM
What I want is that a character who enters a quest gets some kind of penalty that makes it unnecessary that the group gets an exp penalty or loses the bravery bonus.
And this is a good thing to want. More people being able to play together without drawbacks AND without an absurd amount of cheese would be great.


As I said Ideally the game would memorize how the character was build at the moment he took his next level and if the items he got currently equipped would scale with the character level.
Then the character would be almost as powerful as he was with the right character level.
As I said earlier, the game does not do that. To the best of my knowledge the game was never intended to do that. The devs had to create an entirely new system to monitor and remedy people losing stuff from TRs, if the game already took snapshots that would not have been necessary.


But as I said this is an ideal solution and I don't expect that, a penalty similar to a level drain effect could have a sufficient effect
And it might. But DDO has so many options for characters at various levels that you'd pretty much need someone to manually adjust overleveled characters every time.


A lot of item effects basically scale already with your character level, see foremost Cannith Crafting where scaling is basically inherent in the system.
What I want is a DDO with effects that are always created around level scaling and then you can have items that scale with your character level and also such things like I suggest here would be much easier possible.
How would that work with things like GS weapons summoning oozes, Corrosive Salt and its equivalents of the other elements, non-weapons granting vorpal, or chance to cast Heal, Reconstruct, Displacement, or Melodic Gaurd when you're hit. If DDO only had effects like "flaming" where a weapon deals an extra x*d6 fire damage and x goes up at set intervals, sure, that you can easily scale. But there are way too many effects that don't scale like that. And what do you do with items granting Freedom of Movement or Deathblock? Or spell absorption?
And frankly, if all those other effects were to be removed, DDO would be a FAR worse and more boring game for it.


Right, as I said it is not an easy task to make it "ideal" therefore a kind of level drain effect could do the job with much less work.
e.g. you could lose with each level above the quest level 10% hp and you do 10% less damage with everything and you lose 3 DC.
You see then it would make almost no sense to join a quest with a character that is like 10 level above the quest level because he would be that weak that he is almost no help at all for the group...
Of course to find the right numbers is WORK and not easy but it is possible.
So do some of the work at least. Demonstrate that you have a model where the numbers make at least a little sense. Because so far you're doing nothing of the kind. A level 5 character scaling back to level 4 and losing 3 DCs would feel it. A level 30 character scaling back to 20 and losing 30 DCs would still be instakilling everything.
And besides, here you've gone from "one character can ruin the xp for everyone" to "overleveled characters become useless in quests", in other words you're exchanging one reason for only letting people within a certain level range join for another reason for only letting people within the exact same level range join. So by your own words your suggestion does little to nothing to solve the problem you named at the start.



TL;DR I think you have good intentions, but you severely underestimate the difficulties of implementing your suggestion and fail to consider the negative effects it is likely to have.

Chacka_DDO
11-22-2018, 05:41 AM
And this is a good thing to want. More people being able to play together without drawbacks AND without an absurd amount of cheese would be great.

Exactly this is the goal and as I said several times it needs, of course, some work...



As I said earlier, the game does not do that. To the best of my knowledge the game was never intended to do that. The devs had to create an entirely new system to monitor and remedy people losing stuff from TRs, if the game already took snapshots that would not have been necessary.

I know the game does not do that but it is, of course, possible, it just depends if it is worth the effort but I cannot and do not want to decide if this is possible or not.


And it might. But DDO has so many options for characters at various levels that you'd pretty much need someone to manually adjust overleveled characters every time.

I know a level drain like effect is quite crude and if you do it this way it would only wok relatively good if a character is only a few levels over the right level (when you get full reaper exp and bravery bonus) the party leader could decide what the max level is, and if someone wants to join even if he is too high in level, he gets the right amount of level drain.
At the end a character who suffers the level drain could be even weaker as he normally would be, to ensure that it is not harmful to the game.
Sometimes a character can already be very helpful to a group when the player helps out with a lever or just knows a quest better.
Like I helped a group recently out in Xorian Cipher with the pressure plates and I told them how to use hirelings if you don't have enough in the group or if you try it even solo.
But I spoiled their reaper experience and also they got no bravery bonus because I was 3 level too high, they were happy with my help anyhow but I think this was not needed.
Another example is that I often start a pickup group with the public group option and this sets the maximum level of the group most time a few levels too high (you suffer reaper exp penalty). Often enough ppl join such groups very quickly who are just a few levels too high and here I see a lot potential that such a small penalty could make grouping in DDO already a lot easier.
I don't really aim to make it possible that a level 30 character can join a Korthos group, it would be already enough if you can join in a range of 5-10 level over the quest level of a group!
In general, don't take extreme examples most time they are not really helpful for anyone.


How would that work with things like GS weapons summoning oozes, Corrosive Salt and its equivalents of the other elements, non-weapons granting vorpal, or chance to cast Heal, Reconstruct, Displacement, or Melodic Gaurd when you're hit. If DDO only had effects like "flaming" where a weapon deals an extra x*d6 fire damage and x goes up at set intervals, sure, that you can easily scale. But there are way too many effects that don't scale like that. And what do you do with items granting Freedom of Movement or Deathblock? Or spell absorption?
And frankly, if all those other effects were to be removed, DDO would be a FAR worse and more boring game for it.

As I said it is only an ideal solution and would demand a lot more changes to the game.
e.g. if you summon a monster (the ooze) the strength of this monster (his e.g. his CR) could be dependant on the characters level, the monsters you summon and the hirelings can scale with the character level.
I got the idea on my own because it is in my opinion not really a brainer but I have noticed recently that the companion in Diablo 3 does exactly this (even if not ideally).
And also the question how some kind of all or nothing spells can scale is not that hard to answer, you can e.g. decide a character below level 8 is not allowed to have True Seeing from an item, easy solution, if you equip this item under level 8 the true seeing effect, does nothing to you.
The same for effects that provide heal or something, either the effect is disabled or the effect scales with your level.
It is always a matter of a decision if you allow effects and at which level you allow it.
e.g. is it really overpowered when you have the melodic guard on a level 1 character? I don't think it is more overpowered as if you would have it on a lvl 30 character, not to say it is basically on a level 30 character in relation more overpowered as on a lvl 1 character...
And see Freedom of Movement and DeathWard (and also block) all these effects are in fact already now at level 1 available if you know the game you should know that...
You see level scaling on items is not really a brainer you only need the effect and the decision how it scales, but the details are of course in the hand of the developer who does it, it makes not much sense if I start to make some kind of list.
Even if I could and would do that if it would be helpful ;).


So do some of the work at least. Demonstrate that you have a model where the numbers make at least a little sense. Because so far you're doing nothing of the kind. A level 5 character scaling back to level 4 and losing 3 DCs would feel it. A level 30 character scaling back to 20 and losing 30 DCs would still be instakilling everything.
And besides, here you've gone from "one character can ruin the xp for everyone" to "overleveled characters become useless in quests", in other words you're exchanging one reason for only letting people within a certain level range join for another reason for only letting people within the exact same level range join. So by your own words your suggestion does little to nothing to solve the problem you named at the start.

It makes simply no sense to try to give the exact numbers because I have much less data than a developer.
A developer knows way more exactly how the monsters strength scale and with that knowledge it is relatively easy to determine how a level drain effect should look like to be effective.
But I think your objection is actually that I just demand something that is impossible and I'm not willing to help out to make it possible.
But I tell you it makes just no sense if I try to tell what exact numbers you need besides I want to make a developer laugh about my lack of knowledge.
Therefore some example numbers should be more than enough to tell the direction and the try to claim I have the working numbers would be just ridiculous.


TL;DR I think you have good intentions, but you severely underestimate the difficulties of implementing your suggestion and fail to consider the negative effects it is likely to have.

Actually today I had a nice chat with a person who told me that Lord of the Rings Online got a similar mechanic and therefore it is seemingly not impossible for SSG to do something like that.
I don't claim at all that something like that is currently in the area of my personal possibilities, I would need a lot of training and learn for it, but my experience with programming etc. gives me enough knowledge that I can make a good guess to assume that something like this is way easier to implement than e.g. the Dungeon Alert.
The first what you need is the idea, then you need to know if you want something like that and thereafter you need to know if you can do it (you have the resources)
All I can do is give the idea, or rather to tell SSG that I have the opinion that this makes sense for DDO because they seemingly do and know it already in LotRO.

mikarddo
11-22-2018, 05:51 AM
You are right I just call it level drain because I hope an average DDO player knows then what I mean.


Since level drain has a different effect in game you probably should have used a different term or fuller explanation. Trying to insult me when I point this out seems quite odd :)

Anyway, I think the idea is good but I dont think its feasible within the engine and team DDO has. I simply think its too risky and too much work.
I would settle for being able to hold 3 levels worth of xp rather than 1 level as a minor and partial solution.

Chacka_DDO
11-23-2018, 02:26 AM
Since level drain has a different effect in game you probably should have used a different term or fuller explanation. Trying to insult me when I point this out seems quite odd :)

Anyway, I think the idea is good but I dont think its feasible within the engine and team DDO has. I simply think its too risky and too much work.
I would settle for being able to hold 3 levels worth of xp rather than 1 level as a minor and partial solution.

So tell me what term should I use?
I can assure you It was not my intention to insult you.
If I failed on this try it doesn't mean you are not an average DDO player or even above average.
As you said I maybe just used not a good term because I had nothing better.

mikarddo
11-23-2018, 07:39 AM
So tell me what term should I use?
I can assure you It was not my intention to insult you.
If I failed on this try it doesn't mean you are not an average DDO player or even above average.
As you said I maybe just used not a good term because I had nothing better.

Its cool, I am thick skinned and suffered not.
Possibly "scaling down in power" would be a better term since level drain is already taken and much less intrusive.

I certainly would not mind if the dev team think they can implement something like this and make it work. One thing apart from the techical stuff still might be an issue though -- namely the scaling down in level to run with friends would often lead you to run something you already did this life and thus mediocre xp due to a lack of first time bonus. Obviously, you cannot get the first time bonus again as that would indeed lead to abuse but this would reduce the desire to use such a system.

Chacka_DDO
11-23-2018, 02:46 PM
Its cool, I am thick skinned and suffered not.
Possibly "scaling down in power" would be a better term since level drain is already taken and much less intrusive.

I certainly would not mind if the dev team think they can implement something like this and make it work. One thing apart from the techical stuff still might be an issue though -- namely the scaling down in level to run with friends would often lead you to run something you already did this life and thus mediocre xp due to a lack of first time bonus. Obviously, you cannot get the first time bonus again as that would indeed lead to abuse but this would reduce the desire to use such a system.

The main goal for me was more a level range of like 5 level above the normal quest level and not that e.g. a level 30 character can join a Korthos group.
In a real high-level range, the question is also if it feels good if you can join a very low-level group.
And in any case, if a 20+ character wants to join a heroic group the Epic Destinies need to be disabled.
So just only a level drain effect might not be sufficient.
I also think it is not that easy to make it real but I like the idea.
Maybe it can be a long-term goal to design DDO completely around the character level (everything scales with it) including the items you wear and then it would be relatively easy to do something like this.
Another idea would be to lift or remove the hard experience cap we currently have, in my opinion with all the changes (bravery bonus elite streak and the many more quests we have now)
This cap is also not really need and I think the harmful effects outweigh the small positive effects.
Many players leaving groups when they hit this cap and just only for this reason.

Sam-u-r-eye
11-25-2018, 11:32 AM
The idea is quite simple, if you enter a quest below your character level you get a certain amount of penalty based on the numbers of levels you are above the quest level.
Of course ideally, you get some kind of character "roll back" where you have exactly the character stats you had at this level.
For this, the game has to "memorize" how the character was at a certain level and the items you ware have to scale down to the right level. This is certainly possible but needs a lot of work for the development.

But a kind of level drain where you loose certain power is maybe easier to implement than that.
This way you lose a certain amount of your Hit Points, BAB, spell DC etc. so that your character is at the end not stronger (if not weaker) as a character at the right quest level.

The reason for this is simple, this way it is way easier to play together in DDO because the whole group and the higher level character can get full reward for a quest and it has no downside if a higher level character wants to join a lower level group.

+1

I have also been thinking that this is the solution.
I think some things don't work in your proposal but this is absolutely the type of system the game needs.

Igognito
11-26-2018, 08:36 AM
Hi all,

I am against the idea of reducing the level of characters.
I also personally believe that the Casual -- Elite system is set up pretty fine and the xp penalties, bravery etc are set up nicely.

For that reason I would say it is okay to leave the Casual -- Elite system as is; I do not think that it is imposing difficulty for partying.
One of the reasons is that normal XP are pretty easy to access. What causes problems though is the Reaper system and gathering reaper xp is much harder.

It appears that those that run reaper, really want to run reaper to the quest level and do not even want a +1 lvl character in their groups.

For that reason, and mainly for reaper I would propose the exact opposite of what you proposed!
I would say that the under leveled members of a party should get Buffed to reach the level of the highest level character.
Then XP remain the same (computes based on the highest level). Parties should keep choosing quests of the highest member level as is now.

This way also someone can't abuse the xp mining by skipping dungeons and only doing them at later levels.

Cheers

Chacka_DDO
11-26-2018, 01:53 PM
Hi all,

I am against the idea of reducing the level of characters.
I also personally believe that the Casual -- Elite system is set up pretty fine and the xp penalties, bravery etc are set up nicely.

For that reason I would say it is okay to leave the Casual -- Elite system as is; I do not think that it is imposing difficulty for partying.
One of the reasons is that normal XP are pretty easy to access. What causes problems though is the Reaper system and gathering reaper xp is much harder.

I see no connection to the theme but maybe you can explain it a bit more?


It appears that those that run reaper, really want to run reaper to the quest level and do not even want a +1 lvl character in their groups.

It is quite simple from the party leader perspective (most time I'm forming pug groups) with +1 level in group you get -20% reaper exp and with +2 already -50% and therefore it makes a lot sense to not allow that in your party if you are going for reaper expirence.
And by the way because of this it is questionable if the bravery bonus and reaper expirence penalty is not consistent with each other.


For that reason, and mainly for reaper I would propose the exact opposite of what you proposed!
I would say that the under leveled members of a party should get Buffed to reach the level of the highest level character.
Then XP remain the same (computes based on the highest level). Parties should keep choosing quests of the highest member level as is now.



The exact opposite would make not much sense out of my sight.
In the extreme you propose with this a level 1 character can instantly do level 30 quests as if he would be level 30 if one level 30 character is in the group.
Technically this would mean you basicaly need to determinate your full build already at level 1.

If you seriously want something like this you could get of the whole level concept all at once.
This means that everyone starts with a level 30 character or you completely remove the level and every class just plays with a certain setup of abilities and there is no level at all.
I think EverQuest Next was going in this direction.
Personally, I would not like this because I see the level progress as a way to slowly learn how your build work, you start with a small set of abilities and you get more and more.

Of course I dont expect everyone likes my idea but a kind of debuff that lowers your character strength to make it possible to play together without a penalty makes in my opinion at least some sense.

But maybe I missed something you can explain it to me?


This way also someone can't abuse the xp mining by skipping dungeons and only doing them at later levels.

Cheers

To say there is a abuse is in my opinion very exegerated.
Imagine a simple scenario:
You join a group at level 14, the group is almost done with level 15 quests because the party leader is level 15 and did almost all of them.
You stay with the group for hours and you hit the hard cap three times, so you level at the very end to level 17 on this day.
So I ask you now, is it any "evil" of you if you now see the next day another group that does level 14 quests and now you could now do your missed level 14 quests without a penalty and full reaper expirence with them?
Of course it is an advantage, compared to the current possibilties you have but this advantage is intended because I think this would just only give you more freedom in which order you do your quests.

As a party leader I have of course not such problems because I just do the quests I want.
But I see often group members leave my group because they are hard caped or players who want to join me but they are a few levels too high.
Therefore I see potential use for such a change.

In my opinion it would be only a real disadvantage if this would lead into a situation where a player feels forced to repeat one quests over and over again because it is the most effective way to get expirence points.
But with all the first time bonuses we have I think it makes most sense in any case to do quests only one time or maybe maximal four times, even with such a change

Igognito
11-27-2018, 08:04 AM
I see no connection to the theme but maybe you can explain it a bit more?



It is quite simple from the party leader perspective (most time I'm forming pug groups) with +1 level in group you get -20% reaper exp and with +2 already -50% and therefore it makes a lot sense to not allow that in your party if you are going for reaper expirence.
And by the way because of this it is questionable if the bravery bonus and reaper expirence penalty is not consistent with each other.



The exact opposite would make not much sense out of my sight.
In the extreme you propose with this a level 1 character can instantly do level 30 quests as if he would be level 30 if one level 30 character is in the group.
Technically this would mean you basicaly need to determinate your full build already at level 1.

If you seriously want something like this you could get of the whole level concept all at once.
This means that everyone starts with a level 30 character or you completely remove the level and every class just plays with a certain setup of abilities and there is no level at all.
I think EverQuest Next was going in this direction.
Personally, I would not like this because I see the level progress as a way to slowly learn how your build work, you start with a small set of abilities and you get more and more.

Of course I dont expect everyone likes my idea but a kind of debuff that lowers your character strength to make it possible to play together without a penalty makes in my opinion at least some sense.

But maybe I missed something you can explain it to me?



To say there is a abuse is in my opinion very exegerated.
Imagine a simple scenario:
You join a group at level 14, the group is almost done with level 15 quests because the party leader is level 15 and did almost all of them.
You stay with the group for hours and you hit the hard cap three times, so you level at the very end to level 17 on this day.
So I ask you now, is it any "evil" of you if you now see the next day another group that does level 14 quests and now you could now do your missed level 14 quests without a penalty and full reaper expirence with them?
Of course it is an advantage, compared to the current possibilties you have but this advantage is intended because I think this would just only give you more freedom in which order you do your quests.

As a party leader I have of course not such problems because I just do the quests I want.
But I see often group members leave my group because they are hard caped or players who want to join me but they are a few levels too high.
Therefore I see potential use for such a change.

In my opinion it would be only a real disadvantage if this would lead into a situation where a player feels forced to repeat one quests over and over again because it is the most effective way to get expirence points.
But with all the first time bonuses we have I think it makes most sense in any case to do quests only one time or maybe maximal four times, even with such a change


You did misunderstood my text...

a) You do not gain levels. You gain buffs.
b) Your level remains the same in terms of rewards.
c) You do not get buffed based on the dungeon but based on the highest level character and only if you enter the same dungeon at Reaper mode!

ps: I will not consider Epic levels for this scenario

Example Party:
1 character: lvl 20.
1 character: lvl 18
1 character: lvl 3
1 character: lvl 1


Clearly as my system works only for Reaper the usual limitations for choosing reaper apply

thus a lvl 16(I think) is the lowest level a lvl 20 character can enter at reaper.
when do so the lvl 18 can join him and gets buff to compensate for the difference in power.
The earn xp as a lvl 18 and a lvl 20 doing a lvl 16(+2) Reaper dungeon.

now, the level 3 character enters in Reaper a lvl 3 dungeon. The lvl 1 character can join.
The lvl 1 character will be buffed for increased power.
The earn XP rewards as a lvl 1 and a lvl3 character doing a lvl 3+2 on Reaper

This will allow slightly lower level characters to follow higher level characters in Reaper without them being useless or dying to easily.

XP System is not affected.

So a reaper group wont mind having a higher level character, as it will boost their power and allow them to do higher level dungeons.
Have in mind that the difference levels will be maximum +8 I think in order to be able to do reaper with the reaper constraints.

example: when a lvl 12 and a lvl 4 enter a lvl 6 dungeon but will have the 95% xp penalty.
Now this is an extreme example, and I would personally not propose using such a big difference/boost.

Anyhow, I hope this makes clearer what I meant.
I might make a thread explaining it better at some point. (When I verify the lvl restrictions)

Cheers

Drunkendex
12-06-2018, 12:17 PM
It would be nice if characters of different levels could be scaled to about the same power-level and play together in the same quests. The problem with that in DDO, however, is that characters are WAY too customiseable with freely distributable stats, feats, past lives, stances, enhancements, multiclassing, and their power doesn't increase evenly from one level to the next, and a lot of gear adds power beyond simply increasing numbers. You just can't easily scale something like 2 Monk/2 Fighter/12 Cleric back to the power they had at level 10. At least not without saving snapshots of the characters progress at different points, and best we know the game doesn't do that.

It works in other games where character progress is linear and the players have very few options for customising their build. In a game like DDO... less so.

This is excellent explanation why this is not possible.

Chacka_DDO
12-07-2018, 08:01 AM
This is excellent explanation why this is not possible.

Did you read all?
With snapshots (and scaling items) it IS possible even to bring back a character to exactly the point he was as he took level 11 (you bring him back to level 10)
But I suggest a much simpler version with just a kind of debuff (a kind of level drain as we know it) that makes your character noticeable weaker so there is no reason for a exp penalty if you enter the quest.
not possible/impossible is a big word this is surely possible the question is mainly if you want it and how exactly it has to be and then if it is worth the effort.