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View Full Version : Any REALISTIC way to survive t3 champ casters in r1?



Question2005
10-30-2018, 08:57 AM
Im on my 4th life now as a barb, and while im pretty much invulnerable to melee, the occasional t3 spellcaster champ shows up and can wipe the whole party because their spells scale WAY more than melee attacks. I can melee multiple reapers, no problem...t3 spellcaster shows up and decides to cast some OP spell, party wipe.

Was in a level 3 quest on r1 yesterday and saw a kobold shaman hitting for 100+ with a rebounding lightning bolt...so thats 200+ damage...with one spell. I dont think ive ever seen anyone at level 3 with 200+ hp before so this is pretty much an instant kill. Even at level 4 with reaper enhancements, thats going to two shot you.

Theres no consistency either because the champ system is totally RNG. You might be able to handle 99% of champs then one spawns that one or two shots you and the whole party before anyone even knows what has happened.

Melee champs are OK, even t3 ones hit hard but you are given time to heal, even a carnage reaper is fine really. But i cant really think of any way to scale magical defenses up high enough for 200+ damage hits at level 4 without sacrifcing everything else or requiring something obscence like 30+ reaper AP, maxed past lives, etc, etc.

Even with guild buffs bumping you up to 35 resist and absorb items (not that you can get absorb for all elements at low level anyway), it doesnt scale anywhere close to how spell damage scales.

Even spells like resist energy and protection from energy are all balanced off pnp rules...where a CL 10 fireball averages 35 damage. Here, a level 10 champ hits you for 200+ damage so 40 resist is a drop in the bucket...

On my last life I did ruins of threnal on r1 and in a t3 fire reaver spawned...and his flame strike was doing 400+ damage, before saves....half of which was divine damage and unresistable...healers got one shotted, everyone else who passed the reflex save the first time round died in the second hit a few seconds later. We had been steamrolling every encounter in the quest chain before this. Entirely RNG.

(Combat): You attempt to save versus flame strike. You roll a 18 (+23): save!
(Combat): Fire Reaver's flame strike hit you for a total of 56 points of fire damage after 35 were blocked by energy resistance.
(Combat): Fire Reaver's flame strike hit you for 134 points of damage.

450 damage before saves. Half of which is divine damage. And since I was a paladin with sacred defense + a sheltering item, im pretty sure my MRR was the highest in the party. And that wasnt even a critical hit.

If they did the barb thing where resists worked off a %, that would probably be more effective really...but those crazy damage numbers basically say "have 50% elemental absorb in low-mid level heroics or die. Better hope i dont spawn LOL".

Just dont see how you are supposed to get defences up that high to survive the occasional t3 spellcaster champ that wipes the party in one or two hits...

At least when I got hit for 500+ acid damage from the "black and blue" red named quest boss...that was a way higher level quest, it was the last boss (not RNG), it wasnt AOE (or at least, the AOE only hit me) and he only did it once in the entire fight.

Phoenicis
10-30-2018, 10:04 AM
Seriously?

You are complaining about champions (which were added to increase difficulty) in Reaper (Which was added to increase challenge)?

Anyway...

The best way to avoid being one shot by a T3 champ caster is not be where he can hit you with a spell. Whether that is behind a corner, or behind the caster. They almost always have some casting animation, pay attention and use that to get out of the way.

Can't always though, so be prepared to die occasionally. It's Reaper, the DM isn't gonna play fair.

edit to add: And I can't believe I just posted advice on how to survive a caster champ...

Tilomere
10-30-2018, 10:08 AM
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/496822-The-Call-to-Soundburst

https://s15.postimg.cc/lwbt6zd5n/Screen_Shot00040.jpg

It works on every class and build style in the game. Spell casters have low fort saves, and are particularly easy to kill with it. You might benefit from more spell pen feats/enhancements than my builds have until you collect the spell pen past lives.

Phoenicis
10-30-2018, 10:12 AM
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/496822-The-Call-to-Soundburst

https://s15.postimg.cc/lwbt6zd5n/Screen_Shot00040.jpg

It works on every class and build style in the game. Spell casters have low fort saves, and are particularly easy to kill with it.

OP is a barb. Barb doesn't get soundburst.

Next.

tafla421
10-30-2018, 10:26 AM
you are a barb, jump over everything to get at the casters first and mow them down. get everyone in the party to get used to looking for casters first and kill them. that was the essential strategy when the game started and kobold shamans spammed lightning bolts that could 1 shot.

lyrecono
10-30-2018, 10:42 AM
1) don't play reaper (till lv 4)
2) stop paying ssg untill fixed
3) solo and let dungeon scaling work in your favor.
4) don't get hit, pike, take a bio, come in late, kids are crying, etc
5) take the hit and wait for someone to take your stone to a shrine.
6) up your saves, half damage is doable & multiclass for evasion next time, if needed.
7) use a tank in party. (monk, paly& figher could work if build for it).

Tilomere
10-30-2018, 10:44 AM
OP is a barb. Barb doesn't get soundburst.


Everything gets soundburst. Barb can splash 3 rage domain cleric 1 fvs, falconry for wis to hit/dmg, divine will out of warsoul. Done.

Selvera
10-30-2018, 11:16 AM
Besides the fact that Tilo seems to think soundburst is the be-all-end-all of heroic leveling; he is onto something. Stunning or tripping champ caster mobs is a fairly effective way to neutralize their damage output. On barbarian I usually find I have the feat spare for stunning blow, and enough strength to make my trip DC high enough to matter. Between the two of them; you can usually CC enemy casters until they are dead.

Phoenicis
10-30-2018, 11:32 AM
Besides the fact that Tilo seems to think soundburst is the be-all-end-all of heroic leveling; he is onto something. Stunning or tripping champ caster mobs is a fairly effective way to neutralize their damage output. On barbarian I usually find I have the feat spare for stunning blow, and enough strength to make my trip DC high enough to matter. Between the two of them; you can usually CC enemy casters until they are dead.

See, now THIS is a valid suggestion.

Find the CC applicable to your build

vs

Change your build to include soundburst

cru121
10-30-2018, 11:36 AM
t3 spellcaster shows up and decides to cast some OP spell, party wipe.
Ear Smash + Knock Out - no save helpless
http://ddowiki.com/page/Occult_Slayer_enhancements

FuzzyDuck81
10-30-2018, 05:28 PM
petrifying or stunning runestones are a good bet... can't be used if actively raging but they have a decent range & DC

PsychoBlonde
10-30-2018, 05:40 PM
Ear Smash is your friend.

Other useful stuff:

Stack MRR.
Get items that grant Spell Absorption.
Shield clickie/wand (yes, you can use these even if you're a barbarian, you only need like 5 UMD to use a wand of Shield and ANYBODY can get that).
Make sure you have resistances to all the elemental damage types.
Get your saving throws up there.
Get your HP up there.
Death ward clickie.
FoM--boots or other source.
Move around a lot to avoid being hit by devastating ray-type spells that you can dodge (disintegrate, polar ray, scorching ray, etc.)
Identify nasty caster champs BEFORE you charge into the group. Go STRAIGHT to them, HIT THEM WITH EAR SMASH, and kill them ASAP.
If you get hurt, get out of line-of-sight FAST.
Have swap gear with elemental absorption on it. You can usually tell which types you'll need for a given dungeon.

Is it perfect? No. But it works well enough that people do high-skull reaper.

AbyssalMage
11-04-2018, 04:12 AM
Stun
Trip
Ear Smash

Corners
Jumping
Not running in a straight line

Kobald Shaman have been the bane of players since I have been playing since 2010. Occasionally I remember why I hate them so much too. Good luck.

Question2005
11-06-2018, 10:17 PM
Its not that champs are hard...its that theres maybe a 1% chance of an uber champ spawning that can one-two shot the whole party with ridiculous damage that is pretty much impossible to survive unless you are so ridiculously OP that you would be better off doing something harder. The silly RNG factor is annoying.

If your character is OP enough to kill a t3 champ before he can cast a single spell in r1...chances are your character should be doing way higher skull levels instead...or the enemy AI was busy doing somethig other than casting.

Yea, ive been in parties where that has happened. Usually involves some warlock spamming evards and then killing everything in a few hits. Characters like that could easily do higher skull levels if they wanted to. Its like bringing a level 30 to a quest on normal mode...its obviously going to be easy. That doesnt mean its easy for everyone, its just easy for the top 1%.

Again...its not that reaper is "hard" or champs are "hard" its the RNG factor of an uber champ spawning that is harder than red named quest bosses 5 levels higher that deals burst damage that nukes anyone who isnt massively OP for that level. I mean really, how many level 10 characters can survive 400+ damage AOE spam? Even the warlocks that I have seen with 10+ epic past lives and stacking temp hp dont even have 800 hp at that level.

As an example, a 2H paladin with sacred defense and the Utilitarian Necklace gets about 30% magical mitigation. Thats still nowhere close enough to survive uber champs that can nuke you for 400+ damage repeatedly, especially if your healers (with far lower hp and defences) are the first to die. If you have maxed epic destinies or whatever, thats a different story.

And again...if this was a quest end boss...at least you would be able to prepare for it. Like...if you knew it was a beholder, you can swap to anti-beholder items before the fight. Thats a realistic option. In dreams of insanity, you know before hand that the end boss is a beholder, you can prep for the fight. If its a random champ hitting you for 400+ damage out of nowhere...you cant really prep for it. 40 elemental resists is the norm...which isnt anywhere near enough. Spell absorption is nice...if your charges havent been used up on the way there. From what ive seen and been told by people ingame....when an uber champ spawns, the only real thing you can do is either to kill or CC it before it wipes the party. And theres still a large RNG factor involved.

I have no issues with bosses like the black abbot doing some one shot AOE move which is telegraphed. But some random champ that "may or may not spawn" and "may or may not one shot you before you can do anything" is just frustrating due to the RNG factor. Especially when they do more damage than red named quest bosses in quests five levels higher.

Question2005
11-06-2018, 10:36 PM
Ear Smash + Knock Out - no save helpless
http://ddowiki.com/page/Occult_Slayer_enhancements

So what do you do when :

- You cant melee the caster for any reason (not reachable, you are CCed, etc)

- There are multiple casters (best record i saw was 3 mini bosses spawn as champs, that fight didnt last long)

- You CC the caster, great...then your healers die to the rest of the mobs and everything goes downhill

- You miss

- Any of the other things that could go wrong, because one mistake will get you killed

Because in reality, things often dont go as simple as "run up to caster, press one hotkey, instant win". I mean sure, most of the time the party just zergs the caster, 99 times it works, but theres always that 1 time where it doesnt.

And I find it strange that every barb guide basically tells you to avoid the occult slayer tree like the plague and do FB/Ravager only. If ear smash is so good, wouldnt more guides be recommending people to take it?

AbyssalMage
11-07-2018, 01:47 AM
So what do you do when :

- You cant melee the caster for any reason (not reachable, you are CCed, etc)
CC'd - Hope you have donned your Mirror Cloak before the nerf. If not...Remanent Everlasting FoM. You are fighting Shaman in the sewers. It is your fault if you didn't come prepared (which i have to remind myself when I do this exact same thing.)

Not reachable - F'ing Shaman like finding ledges we can not reach.

Remember Shaman always jump "away" from you so use that to your advantage.
Break line-of-sight, they will come running eventually.



- There are multiple casters (best record i saw was 3 mini bosses spawn as champs, that fight didnt last long)

Hide behind corners
Evac, if possible
Enjoy becoming a Soul Stone

As you mentioned, occasionally the RNG really hates you. I've been there myself.


- You CC the caster, great...then your healers die to the rest of the mobs and everything goes downhill
Learn to control your healer. In reaper you have to be a very dedicated Babysitter. I've literally had my Merc die in the 2nd encounter of an adventure and had to make a decision on whether to continue, abandon, or wait 5 minutes. I've done all 3 at one time or another.


- You miss
It happens. You then run behind the corner (or box) to break line of sight.


- Any of the other things that could go wrong, because one mistake will get you killed
Honestly you usually need to make multiple mistakes to get killed.

Forgetting the encounter spawns NPC's behind you
Forgetting to equip an item or cast a spell
Using your merc as a decoy (I've done this on occasion).
Forgetting where you are at while you are frantically trying to do something (I've killed the Champion Spell Caster only to realize I allowed myself to be surrounded.)

So although one shotting happens more often than I like in low level reaper (and I have experienced it multiple time) it happens less and less often for me because I tend to learn from my previous mistakes. I remember about that troublesome Shaman. Or that opening that Chest starts a chain reaction of Kobalds spawning. Or there are 4 shaman hidden in the alcoves ahead. Little mistakes add up fast.


Because in reality, things often dont go as simple as "run up to caster, press one hotkey, instant win". I mean sure, most of the time the party just zergs the caster, 99 times it works, but theres always that 1 time where it doesnt.
When I group at low level (which is rare to be honest) and it is on Reaper, I don't zerg for that reason. Lightning Bolt can wipe a party if you play "follow the leader." Remember that the next time you group and as everyone drops because they "all went for the Shaman" in a straight line.


And I find it strange that every barb guide basically tells you to avoid the occult slayer tree like the plague and do FB/Ravager only. If ear smash is so good, wouldnt more guides be recommending people to take it?
Most guides are directed for "at cap." At low levels my enhancements usually look nothing like they will when I am 20. For example, my Rangers/Monkchers are 100% in Tempest/Henshin from 1 to 11/12 regardless if I am taking "Ranged" feats. I don't touch a Bow until I get IPS. My barbarian did 2.5 resets on her enhancements from 1 to 20 (last one at 12). You have to be flexible at lower levels.

janave
11-07-2018, 02:36 AM
Blood Tribute is what i used for surviving low levels. +100-150 temp hp when you see a crown or a reaper. Downside, you dont want to skip shrines as often :)

wraxzz
11-07-2018, 03:11 AM
1) don't play reaper (till lv 4)
2) stop paying ssg untill fixed
3) solo and let dungeon scaling work in your favor.
4) don't get hit, pike, take a bio, come in late, kids are crying, etc
5) take the hit and wait for someone to take your stone to a shrine.
6) up your saves, half damage is doable & multiclass for evasion next time, if needed.
7) use a tank in party. (monk, paly& figher could work if build for it).
I get the idea that this is meant to be read as sarcastic, right? Still, if op takes 2 rogue levels for evasion, up to and at level 3 they'll be a rogue main, not a barb.


Ear Smash + Knock Out - no save helpless
http://ddowiki.com/page/Occult_Slayer_enhancements
Ear smash isn't guaranteed to render all enemy types helpless. I often have it fail to make enemies helpless but only apply the 2/4/6 second spell prevention. It is of course still useful, but the no save helpless part is misleading and wrong.



Ear Smash is your friend.

Other useful stuff:

Stack MRR.
Get items that grant Spell Absorption.
Shield clickie/wand (yes, you can use these even if you're a barbarian, you only need like 5 UMD to use a wand of Shield and ANYBODY can get that).
Make sure you have resistances to all the elemental damage types.
Get your saving throws up there.
Get your HP up there.
Death ward clickie.
FoM--boots or other source.
Move around a lot to avoid being hit by devastating ray-type spells that you can dodge (disintegrate, polar ray, scorching ray, etc.)
Identify nasty caster champs BEFORE you charge into the group. Go STRAIGHT to them, HIT THEM WITH EAR SMASH, and kill them ASAP.
If you get hurt, get out of line-of-sight FAST.
Have swap gear with elemental absorption on it. You can usually tell which types you'll need for a given dungeon.

Is it perfect? No. But it works well enough that people do high-skull reaper.
I think most of your suggestions are generalised reaper survival tips and not addressing OP's query. If I'm making a mistake here, feel free to point it out!

How do get FoM on a level 3-5 character?
Most sources I can think of is having access to level 4 spells on the right class, which isn't happening at level 5.
First item that gives FoM is ML9.
The only level 5 or below FoM items I know of is the discontinued eternal flask of FoM, which isn't a relevant solution to achieving today.
Am I missing a source that allows FoM at level 5? Maybe scrolls? I'm not very familiar with caster lives.

How does the shield spell help against a 100+ damage lightning bolt?

How will DW help from a 100+ damage lightning bolt?

OP mentioned they haven't seen anyone at lvl 3 above 200 HP, so how does suggesting getting hp up there address the OP?

Also, like OP mentioned, at level 3-5 spell absorption is extremely limited in sources and quantities. I know epic past lives can give up to 10%, but lowest item I know that provides absorption is a ml7 orb- useless for a barb and swapping out weapon sets before getting struck is very unlikely.

If anything, only the suggestions for identifying deadly casters through scouting for ear smash targeting and moving out of LoS is of any use at levels 3-5.


Blood Tribute is what i used for surviving low levels. +100-150 temp hp when you see a crown or a reaper. Downside, you don't want to skip shrines as often :)
Now this is a good example for using a skill I've never looked twice at! At level 2 and 5 ranks spent, it is totally achievable, perhaps just not sustainable in super long quests.

FuzzyDuck81
11-07-2018, 03:53 AM
Just noticed that though energy resistance is mentioned, nobody referenced protection from energy potions - they're not hard to get hold of, relatively cheap (especially since the OP mentions being a multi-TR) & will help you soak up a decent amount of damage.

I'd also make sure to make use of the festivult cakes & stuff if you have any - there's one in particular that (currently, anyway) casts rejuvenation cocoon for that 150 hp buffer - ok it doesn't last very long, but it'll stack with blood tribute so can be a great option for damage mitigation too.

wraxzz
11-07-2018, 05:10 AM
I get the idea that this is meant to be read as sarcastic, right? Still, if op takes 2 rogue levels for evasion, up to and at level 3 they'll be a rogue main, not a barb.


Ear smash isn't guaranteed to render all enemy types helpless. I often have it fail to make enemies helpless but only apply the 2/4/6 second spell prevention. It is of course still useful, but the no save helpless part is misleading and wrong.



I think most of your suggestions are generalised reaper survival tips and not addressing OP's query. If I'm making a mistake here, feel free to point it out!

How do get FoM on a level 3-5 character?
Most sources I can think of is having access to level 4 spells on the right class, which isn't happening at level 5.
First item that gives FoM is ML9.
The only level 5 or below FoM items I know of is the discontinued eternal flask of FoM, which isn't a relevant solution to achieving today.
Am I missing a source that allows FoM at level 5? Maybe scrolls? I'm not very familiar with caster lives.

How does the shield spell help against a 100+ damage lightning bolt?

How will DW help from a 100+ damage lightning bolt?

OP mentioned they haven't seen anyone at lvl 3 above 200 HP, so how does suggesting getting hp up there address the OP?

Also, like OP mentioned, at level 3-5 spell absorption is extremely limited in sources and quantities. I know epic past lives can give up to 10%, but lowest item I know that provides absorption is a ml7 orb- useless for a barb and swapping out weapon sets before getting struck is very unlikely.

If anything, only the suggestions for identifying deadly casters through scouting for ear smash targeting and moving out of LoS is of any use at levels 3-5.


Now this is a good example for using a skill I've never looked twice at! At level 2 and 5 ranks spent, it is totally achievable, perhaps just not sustainable in super long quests.
Upon further research and referencing the words above in italics, I discovered there are some absorption items around 10-15% for individual elements (my previous comment was based on universal absorption!) starting at ml 4 and 5. So there does seem to be *some* items available to that level, but one being a large shield and the other a rune arm, unless there are more relevant items, neither of these are particularly useful to a barb!

HungarianRhapsody
11-07-2018, 06:56 AM
Just dont see how you are supposed to get defences up that high to survive the occasional t3 spellcaster champ that wipes the party in one or two hits...

In the immortal words of Shade, "WASD is my AC."

Don't stand where they're casting and you won't get killed.

Yes, that's easier said than done. Yes, that's still the answer.

lyrecono
11-07-2018, 08:59 AM
In the immortal words of Shade, "WASD is my AC."

Don't stand where they're casting and you won't get killed.

Yes, that's easier said than done. Yes, that's still the answer.

That was way back when this was an action game, due to changes in game mechanics and lag this is no longer the case
I know plenty of people fhat switched from single target melee dps to aoe attacks because of this

Not all playstyles are affected so you might not have noticed but a lot of people use attacks like cleaves to negate the lag.
Have you never seen a melee using auto attacks on air? Seen peeps run into walls? See people run of clearly vissible cliffs?

The same happens with enemy attacks. One moment you're full heath, the screen goes grey and a full 2 minutes later, the damage shows above your head and in the combat log