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silvarstar
10-10-2018, 07:16 AM
I’m not clear on how a fighter with a sword and shield and plate armor works with a caster class like wizard or sorcerer. How do I avoid the armor penalties of plate when casting wizard spells? Is this multi class a mix people do? Same for rogue /wizard or cleric/wizard. I imagine same concerns, mechanics are at play?

GeoffWatson
10-10-2018, 07:43 AM
I’m not clear on how a fighter with a sword and shield and plate armor works with a caster class like wizard or sorcerer. How do I avoid the armor penalties of plate when casting wizard spells? Is this multi class a mix people do? Same for rogue /wizard or cleric/wizard. I imagine same concerns, mechanics are at play?

Fighter/Wiz doesn't work that well; armour has Arcane Spell Failure, which means most of your spells have a chance to fail. There are ways of reducing it (enhancements, augments, named armour). Maybe a 3/17 split, using Stalwart Defence to be a lot tougher than a standard wizard. Eldritch Knight has some melee stuff.

Rogue/Wizard is popular - usually two or three levels of Rogue with the rest Wizard. They both use Int, and you lose a bit of spellcasting abilty and gain Evasion and Trapping.

Cleric/Wizard is not very good - usually better to focus on one or the other to get access to the higher level spells.

Kriogen
10-10-2018, 09:24 AM
1. Armor and shield is not good for arcane casters. Arcane Spell Failure(ASF). Arcane casters are in general pyjama users.

There are ASF reducing enhancements, items. But I dont bother with those things. Not worth it. Its because you(your char) gets a limited number of items slots(helm, gloves, rings, ...). So at one point you have to choose: do I get item that reduces ASF or item that super boosts my spells?

Plus, in DDO, while you can use anything, it doesn't mean it will be of some use. You have to "invest" more, sort of specialize. I mean, just because you put on armor, doesn't make you a undestructable tank.


2. Wizards are not the only class that can cast spells. Maybe you don't really want a "wizard', maybe what you need is a Bard or Artificer or Warlock or ...

3. Wizard/Cleric? Why? Caster levels do NOT stack. Cleric10/Wizard10 is a level 10 caster, not 20. And when you do level 20 quests(as you char is level 20), game expects level 20 caster, not a level 10 gimp.

In general you must be very, very, really very carefull when you multiclass a caster.

silvarstar
10-10-2018, 12:28 PM
hey Thanks for answers. Just wondering if its a thing I could get by some how. To share, I was imagining a character in full plate, wielding a Two handed weapon, and shooting magic missiles and fireballs out of its hand at the mobs on the ledge, while lock picking that trap ;p. haha.

wasn't sure if that's a thing, sounds like that's a big NO :).

I was also considering a wizard/rogue. seems useful. Can these solo dungeons at all the way to 30? (is it 30 or 20 that's max level?)


maybe a pure cleric with some rogue gets me there? they wear plate and can cast spells, easy to solo?

Kriogen
10-10-2018, 12:42 PM
...
I was also considering a wizard/rogue. seems useful. Can these solo dungeons at all the way to 30? (is it 30 or 20 that's max level?)

...
Can. Did it. Not the easiest. But works.


Hmm, how about, good melee, shoots stuff with a bow, does traps and has some nice buffs and can self heal a bit: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/423116-Tempest-Trapmonkey-for-new-players

silvarstar
10-10-2018, 01:20 PM
Can. Did it. Not the easiest. But works.

Hmm, how about, good melee, shoots stuff with a bow, does traps and has some nice buffs and can self heal a bit: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/423116-Tempest-Trapmonkey-for-new-players

Thanks looks good. and deals with traps.

a follow up, do Rogue hirelings exist, and can they deal with traps, locks, etc?

GeoffWatson
10-10-2018, 05:10 PM
Thanks looks good. and deals with traps.

a follow up, do Rogue hirelings exist, and can they deal with traps, locks, etc?

At Heroic levels, Rogue hirelings are only available in the DDO store. There are some Epic level Rogues available for plat in Eveningstar.

Katalissa
10-11-2018, 06:44 AM
How do I avoid the armor penalties of plate when casting wizard spells? Is this multi class a mix people do?

It is possible. Yes, some people do it, (guilty) although it is not exactly flavour of the month...

For example, here is one build idea:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/462314-Gwhyn-build-melee-wizard-EK

The Eldritch Knight tree has a bunch of stuff that reduces arcane spell failure. You can certainly end up with a heavy plate wearing wizard or sorcerer without any chance of failure, just using this tree.

The Elf, Half-Elf, Drow and Morninglord races can take a tier 1 enhancement Arcane Fluidity, which reduces spell failure by up to 15%.

Warforged have a similar enhancement.

Certain armour types have reduced arcane spell failure. There is even a tower shield with 0% spell failure (Skyvault) - IF you can get it.

It is also possible to get sapphires of spell agility that can reduce spell failure up to 15%, and slot into a suitable augment slot.

So actually there are many way to go about it.

See http://ddowiki.com/page/Arcane_spell_failure for more details.

Jerevth
10-11-2018, 07:32 AM
I remember your venture with EK Kat, but not how it turned out.

OP,
The arcane spell failure isn't your biggest concern with mixing caster and anything else; it's the reduction in effectiveness of your spells. Damage spells are based on caster level. To get a level 15 fireball you must be a level 15 wizard or sorcerer. The weapon and shield you carry can give boosts to protection/damage or to the spell casting (fire for fireball). You can slot (if you have cannith crafting) those spell boosts elsewhere but the overall effect is a Jack of all trades, master of none. Your end result will be watered down some. I think we all dreamed of playing a fireball casting armored knight but caster isn't as forgiving as melee for class splashing. Fortunately, my account doesn't retain the list of "Deleted for poor build" characters who have been cast to the ether.

Katalissa gave some great sources of reducing arcane spell failure though and there are a few spells that don't rely on caster level too much.

Good luck and good hunting,

Katalissa
10-11-2018, 10:45 AM
... I was imagining a character in full plate, wielding a Two handed weapon, and shooting magic missiles and fireballs out of its hand at the mobs on the ledge, while lock picking that trap ... I was also considering a wizard/rogue. seems useful. Can these solo dungeons at all the way to 30? (is it 30 or 20 that's max level?)


That Ghwyn build melee wizard I linked is probably the closest thing I've seen to a functional version of what you are after. The war-forged part of the build is pretty optional - you could do elf for better spell failure, halfling for some self-healing via dragonmarks, or whatever. Same with the Harper tree part - if you don't have it put the points into something else.

Although... at a certain point it often becomes more effective to just pull out a bow for those mobs on the ledge. An insta-kill like Finger of Death or Phantasmal Killer CAN be good IF they don't save, but the more feats and enhancements you've devoted to something other than being an uber-wizard, the more likely they WILL save as time goes on. Sure, the various magic/chain/force missiles or elemental bolts and blasts CAN work, it's just that you'll find you eventually run out of spell points trying to do so long before the next shrine...

As far as wiz/rogue - well this is my main character. Can you solo stuff to 30? Probably. I can still solo stuff at 24 - however, that's on normal or maybe hard, not reaper! Can something else do it better - almost certainly. Part of that is, as Jerevth pointed out, the less you focus on being uber-wizard or sorcerer, the less effective your spells become. In the notes for Ghwyn's build above that I linked, it mentions spells are mainly for self buffs. It's more about being able to boost your AC, displace, protect from elements, and haste yourself, etc. Part is intrinsic issues with casters as a whole when you hit higher levels - you may notice a LOT of threads talking about casters in epic levels, casters in reaper, etc. That's a whole different topic...

One other point to keep in mind if you want to find and disable traps - don't take all your rogue levels at the start! The most you can get any skill by spending skill points is 23, BUT this is limited. When leveling up you can never spend more than your level + 3 points in a skill. Rogue levels give you FAR more points to spend than any other class, enough that 2-3 levels of rogue can see you max out spot, search and disable, BUT if you take them too early, you can't actually spend the points in those skills. Generally, take 1 level of rogue as the first level (because of the skill point bonus at 1st level), then spread the other ones out.

It's best to use a character planner app to work it all out so you get the highest possible trapping skills in the end. On top of that, you'll need to find and keep gear that gives you bonuses to search and disable - generally goggles and gloves. Don't wear it all the time, just keep some "trapping gear" that you put on before handling traps.

Good luck!

silvarstar
10-11-2018, 09:54 PM
I remember your venture with EK Kat, but not how it turned out.

OP,
The arcane spell failure isn't your biggest concern with mixing caster and anything else; it's the reduction in effectiveness of your spells. Damage spells are based on caster level. To get a level 15 fireball you must be a level 15 wizard or sorcerer. The weapon and shield you carry can give boosts to protection/damage or to the spell casting (fire for fireball). You can slot (if you have cannith crafting) those spell boosts elsewhere but the overall effect is a Jack of all trades, master of none. Your end result will be watered down some. I think we all dreamed of playing a fireball casting armored knight but caster isn't as forgiving as melee for class splashing. Fortunately, my account doesn't retain the list of "Deleted for poor build" characters who have been cast to the ether.

Katalissa gave some great sources of reducing arcane spell failure though and there are a few spells that don't rely on caster level too much.

Good luck and good hunting,

aha! that makes sense, thanks so much, hadn't considered that angle. now I'm looking at 2h fighter/barb or something type classes with maybe longbow or something. I have a level 4 fighter with 2h and really enjoying swinging that thing..haha, still annoying when ranged kobolds are shooting me front afar though.

silvarstar
10-11-2018, 09:57 PM
Thanks Kat, want to get that in there.

And I just want to say you all have been helpful. I didn't reply to everyone but I did read everyone's posts lots of good shares, now turning more towards maybe pure melee fighter 2h, maybe some rogue, and a cleric hireling ;p in tow.

Niminae
10-14-2018, 02:11 AM
1. Armor and shield is not good for arcane casters. Arcane Spell Failure(ASF). Arcane casters are in general pyjama users.

There are ASF reducing enhancements, items. But I dont bother with those things. Not worth it. Its because you(your char) gets a limited number of items slots(helm, gloves, rings, ...). So at one point you have to choose: do I get item that reduces ASF or item that super boosts my spells?

I agree for the most part, but there are augments that reduce ASF and in general you will have more augment slots than you need.
A Sapphire of Spell Agility reduces ASF by 5%/10%/15% (Minimum Level 12/16/20). This will stack with the reduction you can get from Enhancements and a few other effects. The wiki page on ASF (http://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_Agility) has more details.

In general though you are trading armor protection for spell casting ability, and if you take it to the 'reducto ad adsurdum' level it isn't absurd at all because your centered Fighter/Monk/Wizard will have a zero ASF and won't need an augment or any other form of ASF reduction. I could see it being done in certain cases where you're forced to take a level in an armor wearing class, such as an iconic, and don't want to spend on a +1 heart to get rid of that level. So your 1/19 Fighter/Wizard might well choose to wear leather armor since it was basically a free Feat, and then use an augment to ditch the ASF and enjoy a little more PRR and a much higher MRR ceiling.


In general you must be very, very, really very carefull when you multiclass a caster.

This is very true.