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Anthorin1
04-11-2018, 06:01 AM
Anyone else feel it is rude to join a group and then immediately load up a hireling healer without asking?

Robbenklopper
04-11-2018, 06:23 AM
Anyone else feel it is rude to join a group and then immediately load up a hireling healer without asking?

Old Story, but yes it is. Doing so is a silent-nogo-agreement everyone should know. If not, give your orders to drop that hire. Otherwise you disband and regroup. It is silly to extra note such things like "no hires" in your lfm, but if it happens more than trice to you, it will be necessary for a while.

glmfw1
04-11-2018, 06:24 AM
Anyone else feel it is rude to join a group and then immediately load up a hireling healer without asking?
No.
Unless the group is full once the hireling is added, then there's no harm done.
The player may have the hireling on a timer, so calling it may be necessary to save them from losing it if they do need to call.
Some hirelings can cast buffs that last the length of the quest (if running fast), so a Deathward from a hireling that you can happily drop is the easiest method for getting the spells.
Some classes and less experienced players even with inbuilt self healing can't self-heal fast enough in a lot of combat scenarios, so calling a cleric/FvS hireling becomes an automatic action on entering a quest.
As party leader or another party member, you don't know why that person has called the hire or how they normally play. For some people calling hires is the norm, so they may be thinking "why hasn't anyone else called a hire, when there is space left".

If you have specified in the LFM "no hirelings" then it's rude to pull a hire without asking.
It's also rude to refuse to dismiss a hire if asked "can you drop the hireling, please?".

But it's rude of the party leader or another party member to just say "drop hire" with no "please", without having specified first that people aren't to call hires without asking.

glmfw1
04-11-2018, 06:30 AM
Old Story, but yes it is. Doing so is a silent-nogo-agreement everyone should know. If not, give your orders to drop that hire. Otherwise you disband and regroup. It is silly to extra note such things like "no hires" in your lfm, but if it happens more than trice to you, it will be necessary for a while.
The problem here is that you are making assumptions about other people's existing experiences.
Why should everyone know that "Doing so is a silent-nogo-agreement", if they have only played with groups where it is the norm to pull a hire to fill out empty spots? Not everyone has had the same playing/grouping experience, and there will often be people who, through no fault of their own, do not know what other people think of as "the norm".
It's not silly to say "no hires" if you mean "no hires".
If the same person repeatedly calls hires after being asked not to, that is a different scenario.

Andu_Indorin
04-11-2018, 06:41 AM
No.
Unless the group is full once the hireling is added, then there's no harm done.


Still, always proper to ask. Slots may be saved for other players/guildies.

Robbenklopper
04-11-2018, 06:43 AM
The problem here is that you are making assumptions about other people's existing experiences.
Why should everyone know that "Doing so is a silent-nogo-agreement", if they have only played with groups where it is the norm to pull a hire to fill out empty spots? Not everyone has had the same playing/grouping experience, and there will often be people who, through no fault of their own, do not know what other people think of as "the norm".
It's not silly to say "no hires" if you mean "no hires".
If the same person repeatedly calls hires after being asked not to, that is a different scenario.

I agree with you about having different existing experiences. Nevertheless, calling a hire without asking is not the normal and far away from cooperative teamplay when you are joining someone else party and you are not the leader. Asking for is a polite and gentle move.

Adurna
04-11-2018, 06:47 AM
Still, always proper to ask. Slots may be saved for other players/guildies.

well I dont' see what harm it could do. Someone joins and automatically pulls a hire because for them it's the norm/they might use the heals/like having people following him/etc. If the spot was saved you just have to say so and I'm sure most would just dismiss it with no problem. IF, however, they keep it up after being asked to dismiss it then yes, it's definitely rude.

It's not summoning that it's rude, it's keeping it up if there's a legitimate reason not to.

You could say "he could ask first" sure, that could also be an approach. But as glmfw1 said, different people have different experiences. To someone, asking permission to call an hire could be seen as silly as asking permission to buff the group. You don't go around asking people if you can drop stoneskin on them, do you? It's not harmful, and if for whatever reason you dislike it you just ask them to stop.

glmfw1
04-11-2018, 07:21 AM
Someone joins and pulls a hire because they like having people following them
At Epic Levels, it's not unusual to see me being trailed by 2 Owlbears, 1 Alabaster Lion, Albus or Garret and a fire elemental (Magister Summon with Twist of Fate) in Wilderness areas. It doesn't mean I need them, but it looks cool having a posse. They normally get dropped on entering quests because a lot of the time they are more of a hindrance than a help.

It's not summoning that it's rude, it's keeping it up if there's a legitimate reason not to.
Exactly

You could say "he could ask first" sure, that could also be an approach. But as glmfw1 said, different people have different experiences. To someone, asking permission to call an hire could be seen as silly as asking permission to buff the group. You don't go around asking people if you can drop stoneskin on them, do you? It's not harmful, and if for whatever reason you dislike it you just ask them to stop.
With buffs, the only reason I might ask first is to save Spell Points - a lot of the time, if SP aren't an issue, it's easier to just cast (and potentially waste the points) than wait for responses. If it's a mass buff that I want myself, I just cast it (unless I suspect someone else will be casting it and has a longer duration version).

Still, always proper to ask.
Only if not calling hires is the norm in groups you play with. If calling hires is the norm in the groups you play with, see Adurna's answer above.

Slots may be saved for other players/guildies.
If this is the case, a good leader says so in the LFM. I frequently see LFMs saying "2 spaces held". Messages like this would inform all but the most obstinate of players that calling a hire is something you would need to ask about.

HungarianRhapsody
04-11-2018, 07:58 AM
The problem here is that you are making assumptions about other people's existing experiences.

I don't agree with that.

ASKING is good because then you're not assuming whether people want a hireling or not.

Failing to ask before summoning a hireling means that you're making assumptions about other people's choices and experiences.

Aelonwy
04-11-2018, 08:06 AM
I clicked on the thread because I thought it was going to be a tongue-in-cheek reference to the bug where a hireling is still in group after you've all left the quest. Recently, I had one attached to my character while I was on the guildship and even after I re-logged. I had to drop group to get rid of the pesky hireling's namebar.

JOTMON
04-11-2018, 08:29 AM
Hireling summoning should be able to be overridden by the leader of the party who is putting the group together.

It is asinine that the leader of the party cant dismiss a hireling to invite a real party member..
It is asinine that he Leader has to ask a party member to dismiss their hireling because someone else in the group has summoned a hireling to fill a player spot
and its simply BS that the party leader has to even consider reforming their party around someone else who doesn't dismiss their hireling..

a simple option to dismiss hirelings by the leader would go a long way to alleviating this annoyance.
.. Player 'X' would like to you your group but it is currently full, which hireling would you like to dismiss so you can invite a real party member to the group.


The Dev's have been asked for LFM tools to help control issues like this for years.. these pleas have gone unanswered.

SpartanKiller13
04-11-2018, 08:37 AM
While I think you should ask before summoning, I don't think it's rude to bring a hire in if there's two spaces left. If there's only one space, it's a bit more rude because you'll have to get the party leader to repop the LFM and kick your hire if there's a taker, but for like a party of 2-4 people I can't see a reason why not.

Obviously if the LFM says anything about hires that's different, but like I don't mind people who bring a hire with them everywhere.

MistaMagic
04-11-2018, 08:50 AM
No.
Unless the group is full once the hireling is added, then there's no harm done.
The player may have the hireling on a timer, so calling it may be necessary to save them from losing it if they do need to call.
Some hirelings can cast buffs that last the length of the quest (if running fast), so a Deathward from a hireling that you can happily drop is the easiest method for getting the spells.
Some classes and less experienced players even with inbuilt self healing can't self-heal fast enough in a lot of combat scenarios, so calling a cleric/FvS hireling becomes an automatic action on entering a quest.
As party leader or another party member, you don't know why that person has called the hire or how they normally play. For some people calling hires is the norm, so they may be thinking "why hasn't anyone else called a hire, when there is space left".

If you have specified in the LFM "no hirelings" then it's rude to pull a hire without asking.
It's also rude to refuse to dismiss a hire if asked "can you drop the hireling, please?".

But it's rude of the party leader or another party member to just say "drop hire" with no "please", without having specified first that people aren't to call hires without asking.

It seems like you have no concept of what a PL is and it is because of people like you that I do not do LFM's and prefer to solo. I have had instances where I have been doing Coal chamber and some fool popped a Panther and with regards to saying its rude to just say DROP THE HIRE I would disagree as YOU asked to join MY party (NOT YOUR PARTY) and I accepted you. Your hire did not apply and therefor I did not accept it into the party. If that is not clear enough I do not know what is

Algreg
04-11-2018, 09:16 AM
Absolutely rude. I hadn´t seen this in years, but see it in almost every PUG currently. Probably because a lot of people feel tempted to jump into things over their head and need their pocket healer.

Deadlock
04-11-2018, 09:19 AM
Anyone else feel it is rude to join a group and then immediately load up a hireling healer without asking?

Not rude at all in a small group.

Semi rude if it's the last spot in the party and closes the LFM.

Unacceptably rude not to dismiss the hireling when asked by the person with the star.

Selvera
04-11-2018, 09:49 AM
It is polite to ask before summoning a hireling.

It isn't rude to summon a hireling if it doesn't raise the maximum character level (aka nerf people's xp) or take up the last slot in the party (which takes down the LFM, and makes it so people can't click on it to request to join if it's put up again) or the party leader stated no hirelings in the LFM.

It is rude to summon a hireling if any of the cases above is the case.

It is rude to not dismiss hirelings when the party leader asks you to.

It is annoying that the party leader cannot dismiss hirelings them self.

It is annoying that you have to be near a hireling to dismiss it.

redoubt
04-11-2018, 10:37 AM
I will NOT join someone else's group if I feel I can't hang without a hireling.

If I want a hire, I'll ask if it is okay to pull one first.

When I'm leading a group, I will often have a hire out to help with healing. I don't mind if others pull one as well, though I appreciate it if they ask first because I will keep the LFM up until I have 6 people. If I'm already talking to other people about joining the group it prevents the inevitable, "drop the hire please" and associated wait while they are not paying attention.

Lastly, there are quests in which no hires and no summons are allowed because they are detrimental. No, I'm not going to put this in the LFM. If you are running elite and reaper, you should know by now. Also, asking first gives the party leader a chance to stop you from harming the group in this situations.

mobrien316
04-11-2018, 02:44 PM
I think it's polite to ask "Do you mind if I bring a hireling?"

But, if they don't ask and just summon one, I usually just assume they need the healing and I don't say anything.

However...
I put up an LFM for Mirror with my level 22 ranger, and right after I started someone joins. A minute or so later, they enter the quest. Then I hear "bing" and a cleric hireling joins. Okay, no big deal if he needs the healing.

A few seconds later - "bing" - the black onyx panther joins.

A few seconds later - "bing" - the white onyx panther joins.

A few seconds later - "bing" - the level 17 owlbear joins.


I type in chat: "Really? You don't think four summons is a bit much?"

He replies that he does it all the time and I'm the first player ever to have a problem with it.

Fivetigers33
04-11-2018, 03:23 PM
I think it's polite to ask if it's ok to summon a hire, but I've played with one or two people that joined my LFM and immediately popped a hire without saying a word.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned reaper lockout. That is a shining example of when someone popping hires without permission can cause more trouble than help because dismissing them locks the quest. Though I've played in full reaper groups where I wished we had a hire lol.

Lonnbeimnech
04-11-2018, 03:24 PM
Don't even ask them to drop the hire.
Squelch.
Reform.

arkonas
04-11-2018, 03:35 PM
No.
Unless the group is full once the hireling is added, then there's no harm done.
The player may have the hireling on a timer, so calling it may be necessary to save them from losing it if they do need to call.
Some hirelings can cast buffs that last the length of the quest (if running fast), so a Deathward from a hireling that you can happily drop is the easiest method for getting the spells.
Some classes and less experienced players even with inbuilt self healing can't self-heal fast enough in a lot of combat scenarios, so calling a cleric/FvS hireling becomes an automatic action on entering a quest.
As party leader or another party member, you don't know why that person has called the hire or how they normally play. For some people calling hires is the norm, so they may be thinking "why hasn't anyone else called a hire, when there is space left".

If you have specified in the LFM "no hirelings" then it's rude to pull a hire without asking.
It's also rude to refuse to dismiss a hire if asked "can you drop the hireling, please?".

But it's rude of the party leader or another party member to just say "drop hire" with no "please", without having specified first that people aren't to call hires without asking.

yes its quite rude to do it without asking. not only are you joining somone else's party but if you do that without asking you're the issue. its not your party for one, two you probably didn't ask, thirdly you assume everyone must agree to your way instead of the other way around. its not difficult to simply ask do you mind if i pop a hire.

i had someone get mad at me earlier when i was leading my group because i was doing 3 barrel at level 7 R1. they asked why aren't you doing it at base level. oh they also added i was interrupting their xp for levels. i say this example simply because someone got mad at me because of my group and because i was doing things they didn't like. i just asked why did you join me then?. just make your own group. same thing applies to hirelings. if someone is not ok with hires they don't need to say it in the lfm. they don't need to say 2 reserved either unless it was literally saved. i just hate when people make excuses and assume everyone should adapt to your playstyle. look if you join someone else's group simply ask. most people wouldn't care. just don't do whatever you want to do and go with it.

zehnvhex
04-11-2018, 03:42 PM
The 'rudeness' factor I think stems from when hirelings could cause a loss of XP for the group if (and when) it died. These days the only negative impact is when it affects scaling, but there are so few quests worth doing that are scaled that I really don't think it's much of a bother.

I second the notion that it's always best to ask if you want to be polite because the GL might have other people coming etc...but I'm not going to take it personally if someone feels they need one.

shores11
04-11-2018, 03:48 PM
My rule when I join another players group is that they are the leader. Before doing anything like popping a hireling a guest player should discuss it with the group leader.

Enoach
04-11-2018, 03:54 PM
To me I look at it as being inconsiderate not to ask first. Much like being invited over to someone's house and bringing a friend even though you were the one invited. You are the person putting your host in an awkward position.

The problem is to many people believe in "asking forgiveness" vs "asking permission"

That being said, the only time I've ever said "no" when asked was because I knew we had more people coming and I didn't want to put people in a place were they were going to "have" to dismiss.

Keep in mind that when a party fills to max size all people that click "join" get that wonderful message of "You have been declined because the party is full" and that means extra effort on not just the person with the hireling to dismiss but now with the PL to try and get a RL person in the group.

---
Bottom line, don't be inconsiderate take the time to ask.

Jomee
04-11-2018, 04:53 PM
Anyone else feel it is rude to join a group and then immediately load up a hireling healer without asking?

It is like being invited to someone's house for dinner and then bringing an extra guest unannounced expecting them to get fed also.

bracelet
04-11-2018, 08:17 PM
Anyone else feel it is rude to join a group and then immediately load up a hireling healer without asking?

I don’t mind. The scaling added by the extra player, AND the hire they bring, will make it a much more exciting adventure.

Bolo_Grubb
04-11-2018, 09:37 PM
yes I think it is rude

glmfw1
04-12-2018, 06:59 AM
I think it's polite to ask "Do you mind if I bring a hireling?"

But, if they don't ask and just summon one, I usually just assume they need the healing and I don't say anything.

However...
I put up an LFM for Mirror with my level 22 ranger, and right after I started someone joins. A minute or so later, they enter the quest. Then I hear "bing" and a cleric hireling joins. Okay, no big deal if he needs the healing.

A few seconds later - "bing" - the black onyx panther joins.

A few seconds later - "bing" - the white onyx panther joins.

A few seconds later - "bing" - the level 17 owlbear joins.


I type in chat: "Really? You don't think four summons is a bit much?"

He replies that he does it all the time and I'm the first player ever to have a problem with it.

This was my point exactly. If noone has ever said anything to someone, why would they ever think to ask - they will think calling hires is the norm.
Once someone knows differently, it's another matter entirely, but if noone has ever complained about it, asked them to drop the hire or said "please ask before summoning hires", how would a player know otherwise?
You cannot say it is rude to do something if they have no reason to know otherwise - you might not like it, but it's not rude of them. Essentially it is just a cultural difference.

Once you know, it's polite to ask if you can call a hire.
It's always rude to summon a hire that's higher than the quest level, as that impacts XP bonuses.

Adurna
04-12-2018, 07:06 AM
It's always rude to summon a hire that's higher than the quest level, as that impacts XP bonuses.

I thought you had to be at least the same level of the hireling you're trying to summon, or are there some exceptions I'm not aware of? Because otherwise, if the hireling would raise the quest level chances are your presence would as well.

Enoach
04-12-2018, 07:13 AM
I thought you had to be at least the same level of the hireling you're trying to summon, or are there some exceptions I'm not aware of? Because otherwise, if the hireling would raise the quest level chances are your presence would as well.

pulled from http://ddowiki.com/page/Hireling

Gold Seal Hirelings can be bought with DDO Points or with Astral Shards from most hireling vendors. Gold Seal contracts, and the hirelings they summon, differ from normal ones in these ways:

Gold Seal hirelings can be summoned anywhere in a dungeon or zone, not just near the entrance.

You can summon as many Gold Seal hirelings as there is room for in the party, including vendor hirelings.

You can summon Gold Seal Hirelings up to 2 levels higher than your character.

glmfw1
04-12-2018, 07:25 AM
It seems like you have no concept of what a PL is and it is because of people like you that I do not do LFM's and prefer to solo.
By "People like you" do you mean

people who don't think it is rude for someone to call a hire without asking

or

people who call hires without asking

I'm in the former category NOT the latter. If someone calls a hire without asking in a party I am leading, and there are spaces to spare, I will /tell them and ask them to ask next time and tell them that the hire will need to be dropped if we get more joiners. That sets their expectations for the current party setup, for the future if they join my LFMs and (hopefully) make them think about asking other people in future. If they join the party and fill it with a hire, I will ask them to drop the hire. It's polite to ask, rather than demand.
If I join a party and there is space, I may ask if I can call a hire for casting Death Ward (a not easily potionable buff) if I think it's needed, and (if hire is called) then ask the leader if they want me to drop the hire or leave him/her at the entrance as emergency recovery.
Just because I don't think it's rude not to ask, doesn't mean I don't think it is polite to ask.

with regards to saying its rude to just say DROP THE HIRE I would disagree as YOU asked to join MY party (NOT YOUR PARTY) and I accepted you. Your hire did not apply and therefor I did not accept it into the party. If that is not clear enough I do not know what is
It's not difficult to add the word "please" to the end of "drop hire". Using please and thank you when appropriate is polite. Deliberately not using them can cause offence, therefore is rude. It may be the PL's party, but it's still a human being who has joined the group and summoned the hire. Hirelings are an inbuilt part of the game, so it's not obvious that there is a reason not to call one. Not everyone is a native English Speaker. Not everyone who is comes from the same cultural background. Being polite and treating people with respect builds bridges between them.
If there's time, it's good to explain to people why you want them to drop the hire, so they know for the future.

Adurna
04-12-2018, 07:30 AM
Uh, I didn't know that.

Then I have to go back on my previous statement. Pulling a hireling which would mess up the exp of the quest is definitely rude. Although I'd allow for someone not knowing they're messing up the quest for everyone, so that'd be "knowingly pulling an hireling which would mess up the exp".

As is doing so if it's the last open spot and a lfm is up.


Otherwise I'd say it's pretty harmless. Sure it would be nice if the leader could have the power to dismiss them, but I'd say that 95% of times asking for it to be dismissed does the trick.


I think we should also differentiate between quests. Summoning a hireling in a daily would be pretty silly, as dailies are usually filled pretty fast. Doing so while doing anyother quest is not as "serious" since there is no guarantee the party will be filled.


In the end, as it was stated, it can only be rude if they know it's causing problems.

I mean, in japan it's rude to spear food with the chopsticks, but it's pretty stupid to get angry about it if the one doing it is foreign and doesn't know about it, isn't it? In the same way it's silly to get angry about hirelings if a player is not doing it in bad faith. Just take the time to explain why they should or shouldn't do things. IF they keep up then sure, they're either idiots or rude, possibly both.

glmfw1
04-12-2018, 07:41 AM
Bottom line, don't be inconsiderate take the time to ask.

I totally agree.
It's rude if you know you should ask, but don't.
But there ARE people in the game whose experience has involved only ever playing in groups with hires, where everyone auto-calls. It's important to remember that such scenarios can exist and until someone indicates otherwise, those people will not realise they have done anything that others may think of as "wrong".
If someone is rude back to you when you ask them to ask next time or ask them to drop the hire (explaining why), then you know not to accept their Join request next time. Otherwise, you have taken a little time, informed them of something they may not have been aware of, and hopefully they become a more social player as a result.

glmfw1
04-12-2018, 07:43 AM
I mean, in japan it's rude to spear food with the chopsticks, but it's pretty stupid to get angry about it if the one doing it is foreign and doesn't know about it, isn't it? In the same way it's silly to get angry about hirelings if a player is not doing it in bad faith. Just take the time to explain why they should or shouldn't do things. IF they keep up then sure, they're either idiots or rude, possibly both.

Well Said :)

Enoach
04-12-2018, 07:54 AM
...

I think we should also differentiate between quests. Summoning a hireling in a daily would be pretty silly, as dailies are usually filled pretty fast. Doing so while doing anyother quest is not as "serious" since there is no guarantee the party will be filled.


In the end, as it was stated, it can only be rude if they know it's causing problems.

I mean, in japan it's rude to spear food with the chopsticks, but it's pretty stupid to get angry about it if the one doing it is foreign and doesn't know about it, isn't it? In the same way it's silly to get angry about hirelings if a player is not doing it in bad faith. Just take the time to explain why they should or shouldn't do things. IF they keep up then sure, they're either idiots or rude, possibly both.

This is why I use the word "inconsiderate" and not "rude" when describing the behavior of calling a hireling without asking. As it is inconsiderate to assume what is the expected acceptable behavior.

I do agree, it is not a behavior that deserves the vitriol some apply to it, as generally most people will comply to requests, especially polite requests.

Peter_Stauffenberg
04-12-2018, 07:55 AM
The 'rudeness' factor I think stems from when hirelings could cause a loss of XP for the group if (and when) it died. These days the only negative impact is when it affects scaling, but there are so few quests worth doing that are scaled that I really don't think it's much of a bother.I second the notion that it's always best to ask if you want to be polite because the GL might have other people coming etc...but I'm not going to take it personally if someone feels they need one.

Not only. I'm often leading PUG's and see from time to time players who join summon hirelings as soon as they join. What they don't think of is that I can have a list of incoming players to accept. Then the group is full before I could accept everyone. Then I get the hassle to tell the left out person to wait, tell the hireling to be dismissed and finally invite the left out person.

I think the PUG rule is simple. The star decides who should join. It's ok to ask if you can bring a hireling, but don't take it for granted.

I usually accept others to bring a hireling, but tell them to be prepared to dismiss when needed to. I keep the LFM up (IP send tell if possible) because in most situations a real person is better for the Group than a hireling. The exception I can think of are when you need a trapper hireling or a healer hireling in reaper.

Whitering
04-12-2018, 12:22 PM
Would be great if it was like Swtor and the hires just got displaced by new players.