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Cocomajobo
03-27-2018, 03:19 PM
NOTE:
This color means a that this thing was not in the first preview.
This color means that this thing was in the first preview.

General Arti Changes/Other


Improved Construct Essence now functions like Construct Exemplar does presently on Live, granting full Construct species typing. It's available with 12 Artificer levels, and as an Artificer class feat.
Construct Exemplar is no longer part of the line with the other two. It now adds +20 Repair Amp and +10 MRR. It is available to any character level 20+.
Added Combat Expertise to the Arti feat list, because despite being an INT feat, and the fact that Fighters and Monks get it, they don't.
Added Empower Healing as an available Artificer metamagic
You no longer lose HP or SP when your Iron Defender dies. (Yes, this is coming to Druid as well).


Arcanotechnician:


Uncaring Master gets replaced with Arcane Skills: +1/2/3 Spellcraft and UMD
Palliative Admixture now scales at (20 temp hp + 1 per arti level, 10 temp sp + 1 for every 2 arti levels)
Critical Admixture goes away (to Mastermaker), gets replaced with Runic Efficacy: Passive: +1 Evocation dc, +2 to Caster Level and Max Caster Level of Electric Spells, +2 to Rune Arm DCs.


Battle Engineer:

Shatter Defenses DC calculation now includes Half Artificer Level
Thunder-Shock Weapon DC calculation now includes Half Artificer Level


Curative Admixtures:


Curative Admixture: Cure Critical Wounds is now a 5th level Artificer spell in the general Artificer spell table.
Scrolls of Curative Admixture: Cure Critical Wounds now occasionally drop in treasure wherever 5th level scrolls drop.
Curative Admixture spells have had their Spell Point costs adjusted.
Curative Admixture spells have had their Maximum Caster Levels raised to match their Cure (non-Mass) analogues, and added to their tooltips.
Curative Admixture spells have had their tooltips corrected with accurate damage values.
Curative Admixture spells are now properly considered Conjuration spells for the purpose of DCs and Caster Levels.

Cocomajobo
03-27-2018, 03:19 PM
Artificer: Renegade Mastermaker Tree
Renegade Mastermaker is the third tree for Artificers. It focuses on improving your Healing, personal Defense, some Melee, and building things to buff you and your allies.

https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/MastermakerV2.png

Removed from previous preview:


Stronger Admixtures (worked into Cores)
Repair Light Damage SLA
Repair Moderate Damage SLA
Instant Fix


Cores

Renegade Defender: Each core ability in this tree grants you +10 Maximum Hit Points, +5 Positive Spell Power and +5 Repair Spell Power.
Alchemical Shield While in Medium Armor, Heavy Armor, or Adamantine Body, your equipped armor grants you a +4 Alchemical bonus to AC and immunity to Magic Missiles.
Curative Admixture: CSW SLA 4 Spell Points. 8 second cooldown. Passive: Your Admixture spells gain +4 to their Maximum Caster Level.
Constructive Conduit+30 Repair Amplification. +50 Maximum Hit Points. +2 Max Dex Bonus while in Medium Armor, Heavy Armor, or Adamantine Body Passive: Your Admixture spells gain +6 to their Maximum Caster Level.
Radiant Forcefield Radiant Forcefield SLA. 30 Spell Points. 3 minute cooldown.
Mass Unbreakable Forcefield+2 CON, +2 INT. +10 PRR, +10 MRR, +3 to Max Dex Bonus while in Medium Armor, Heavy Armor, or Adamantine Body. Active: Mass Unbreakable Forcefield: For 6 seconds, your entire party takes -95% damage from all sources (except Untyped damage). 3 minute cooldown. (This is a separate cooldown from the non-Mass version).


Tier 1

Curative Admixture: CLW SLA. 4/3/2 Spell Points. 12/8/6 second cooldown.
Easily Fixed: +10 Healing Amp, +20 Repair Amp
Supporting Construction: While in Medium or Heavy Armor (or Adamantine Body), +2/4/6 PRR.
Skills: Repair/Heal/Balance
Toughness: +5/10/15 max hp


Tier 2

Kinetic Discharge: Active Melee Cleave Attack: On hit, +1/2/3[w] and 2d6 Force damage. This damage scales with 200% Melee Power. 10 second cooldown.
Mighty Slam: Single Target Melee Attack: +1/2/3[w]. You may stun the target for 6 seconds. Stunned creatures are considered helpless. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. (DC: 10 + Half Artificer Level + INT modifier + Sunder Modifiers). Requires an equipped Rune Arm to use.
Armor Mastery: +1/2/3 Armor Class and Armor Max Dex Bonus
Converter: You create a small device that floats near an ally. Target player, hireling, or Druid Wolf pet at touch range takes 100% base healing from Repair spells for the next 3 minutes (or until target dies). This overrides their innate base healing from Repair spells for the duration. 3 minute cooldown.
Action Boost: Action Boost: Defense OR Action Boost: Saving Throws


Tier 3

Conjure Component: 10 Spell Points:You conjure a large number of components that stand in for the Potion requirements in all of your Admixture spells. These expire on logout.
Battlefist: You empower your Rune Arm to devastate a target with a powerful strike. Single Target Melee Attack: +3[w], if the target is under the effect of Mighty Slam's Stun, it takes 1d3 Sonic Damage per Artificer level, 1d3 Force Damage per Artificer level, and is knocked down for 10 seconds with no save. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power. Requires an equipped Rune Arm to use. (This is also gettng a cool new animation.)
Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by [15/30/50]%.
Shielding Construct: 30 sp: You create a construct that shields you and your allies. You and nearby allies (at the time of activation) gain the effects of the Shield spell for 2 minutes. Cooldown: 2 minutes. This effect is dispelled by Antimagic.
CON/INT


Tier 4

Kinetic Charge: Passive: Any time you hit an opponent in Melee, you have a chance of gaining a stack of Kinetic Charge. Each stack grants a +1 Shield Bonus to AC for every 3 Artificer Levels you have. This stacks up to five times (for a potential total of +30). Stacks decrement by 1 every 15 seconds, and gaining a new stack resets the duration. Toggle: When this ability is toggled on, using Kinetic Discharge will clear all stacks of Kinetic Charge and slow (both movement and attack speed) all affected (non-boss) enemies by 10% per stack cleared for 10 seconds.
Reconstruct SLA 35/30/25 Spell Points. 30/15/6 second cooldown. Shares a cooldown with other Reconstruct SLAs.
Embed Component: Construct Essence or Warforged Required. +5/10/15 MRR and +2/4/6 Constitution. You can no longer use Evasion, Druid Wild Shape feats, or Primal Avatar's Tree form.
Warding Construct: You create a drone set to counter magical spells. Every 10 seconds, you and nearby allies gain a +3 Alchemical bonus to Saving Throws vs. Magic and +3 Alchemical bonus to Saving Throws vs. Traps that lasts for 10 seconds. 4sp Activation. This construct (and its effects) last indefinitely until dispelled by relogging, Death, or Antimagic.
CON/INT


Tier 5

Curative Admixture: Cure Critical Wounds SLA. 5 Spell Points. 12 second cooldown.
Multiselector: Forcefield

Unbreakable Forcefield: For 6 seconds, your target takes -95% damage from all sources (except Untyped damage). 3 minute cooldown. (This is a separate cooldown from the Mass version).
Reactive Forcefield: When you drop below 50% hitpoints, gain the effects of Unbreakable Forcefield for 6 seconds automatically. 90 second cooldown. (This is a separate cooldown from the non-Mass version).

Paragon Body:You no longer suffer Arcane Spell Failure from armor. You gain +4 to Fortitude Saves and +20% Racial bonus to maximum hit points.
Regeneration Construct: You are surrounded by arcane energy capable of repairing damage. Allies (equal to your Artificer level) are Repaired for 1 hit point per 3 Artificer levels as long as they are near you. This construct (and its effects) last indefinitely until dispelled by relogging, Death, or Antimagic. 30sp Activation.
Mastermaker: Your Repair Wounds spells have no maximum caster level.

zehnvhex
03-27-2018, 03:59 PM
Hi Steel:

Some unanswered questions from the preview thread:

1 - Will the DC calculation for mighty fist be adjusted to make it useful in Epic/Legendary/Reaper? You compared it to stunning blow but SB has a -much- higher theoretical cap due to higher available +str bonuses, fighter feats being often used, etc...Can we get it to scale more similar to monk Stunning Fist at the very least (+half caster level)?

2 - Will there be some sort of 'flagging debuff' added to mighty fist so that it can be used in conjunction with Battlefiest on boss fights?

3 - Will battlefiest get better scaling in mid/late-game? The damage sounds impressive on paper but won't when fighting mobs with 20+k health reduced by reaper penalties.

4 - Is something being done to make mastermaker, conjure components and +MCL to admixtures actually useful because as it currently stands, none of those will actually do anything. Like, literally nothing.

5 - Any plans to make the constructs worth taking? Shielding construct has a ~potential~ limited use for groups that are lazy. The other two have no real use in modern DDO.

6 - Any plans to make Converter more user friendly? As it stands it's an extremely cumbersome ability. We want to like it, we want to love it, but it's so heavy handed in it's limitations as to be not be a draw.

Thanks!

Steelstar
03-27-2018, 04:10 PM
Hi Steel:

Some unanswered questions from the preview thread:

1 - Will the DC calculation for mighty fist be adjusted to make it useful in Epic/Legendary/Reaper? You compared it to stunning blow but SB has a -much- higher theoretical cap due to higher available +str bonuses, fighter feats being often used, etc...Can we get it to scale more similar to monk Stunning Fist at the very least (+half caster level)?

It already got that last thing. Read the notes! Beyond that: No.



2 - Will there be some sort of 'flagging debuff' added to mighty fist so that it can be used in conjunction with Battlefiest on boss fights?

3 - Will battlefiest get better scaling in mid/late-game? The damage sounds impressive on paper but won't when fighting mobs with 20+k health reduced by reaper penalties.

Might consider something to the first of those if we have time. No to the second. Regarding both of the last two questions: As several people helpfully pointed out in previous feedback threads, we shouldn't be balancing skills based on Reaper, right? ;) The trip's the better part of the skill anyway.



4 - Is something being done to make mastermaker, conjure components and +MCL to admixtures actually useful because as it currently stands, none of those will actually do anything. Like, literally nothing.
5 - Any plans to make the constructs worth taking? Shielding construct has a ~potential~ limited use for groups that are lazy. The other two have no real use in modern DDO.

False! And no.

With regards to Shielding Construct, as I told a few people on Discord lately: If the sheer number of people who are still dying right now to Wisp Magic Missiles in Ravenloft is any indication (and it is), a Mass Shield ability has its uses. If you're wondering what the use of some these skills are, because you'd personally never consider taking them - Bear in mind they might not be meant for you or players who play the same way you do; and that's fine. "They're useful to some players" and "They're useful to the top end of players" are very different things, and both can exist (either overlapping or separately).



6 - Any plans to make Converter more user friendly? As it stands it's an extremely cumbersome ability. We want to like it, we want to love it, but it's so heavy handed in it's limitations as to be not be a draw.


Mostly no. There are one or two small things we're taking a look at, but the large restrictions are there for reasons that aren't changing anytime soon, sorry. Its indicator construct should be working right in this build.

edrein
03-27-2018, 05:08 PM
Might consider something to the first of those if we have time. No to the second. Regarding both of the last two questions: As several people helpfully pointed out in previous feedback threads, we shouldn't be balancing skills based on Reaper, right? ;) The trip's the better part of the skill anyway.

With regards to Shielding Construct, as I told a few people on Discord lately: If the sheer number of people who are still dying right now to Wisp Magic Missiles in Ravenloft is any indication (and it is), a Mass Shield ability has its uses. If you're wondering what the use of some these skills are, because you'd personally never consider taking them - Bear in mind they might not be meant for you or players who play the same way you do; and that's fine. "They're useful to some players" and "They're useful to the top end of players" are very different things, and both can exist (either overlapping or separately).


I'm going to try and not sound as sarcastic as I feel about this... But seriously? We can't scale abilities with the hindsight that they won't perform well in Epic/Legendary/Reaper but we can literally build a single ability around a -single- quest?

If you can't see the irony in that Steel, then I don't even know what to say.

SerPounce
03-27-2018, 05:45 PM
Might consider something to the first of those if we have time. No to the second. Regarding both of the last two questions: As several people helpfully pointed out in previous feedback threads, we shouldn't be balancing skills based on Reaper, right? ;) The trip's the better part of the skill anyway.


High HP mobs aren't just a reaper thing. Even regular LN ravenloft mobs have thousands of HPs. Normal Baba has, what, 4 million HP? ~90 damage on a special attack is trivial. I don't have a problem with it in this case because, as you said, this ability is really about the CC, but if this was a DPS ability it would need to scale a lot higher.

zehnvhex
03-27-2018, 08:42 PM
It already got that last thing. Read the notes! Beyond that: No.

First off, huge thanks for taking the time to actually review and retune the tree. I hope you can see that we are super excited about Renegade Mastermaker coming to DDO. I don't want you for a second to think that I'm dumping on you or anything. I just...being able to become a badass magitek cyborg was what got me into playing Artificers in PnP in the first place.

So that being said, my food for thought counters:

1 - Awesome, thanks! It works guys! Feedback works guys! <3

2/3 - I'm a little disappointed but I can understand. It's just...we already have a ton of single target builds in the game and Artificer isn't exactly near the top of the heap. I get that you're reluctant to say "Okay we're nerfing monks but here's Artificers the new melee meta." I just look at what's on paper here and I don't see any reason to get it other than "Well I'm already committed to a sub-optimal single target melee build...might as well get this sub-optimal single target CC since I have literally nothing else to spend points on."

I'm just not a big fan of "It's okay to have this because heroic normal exists."

4 - I'd like to offer a counter:

Conjure Components: SLA's don't require these and ranged slow casting cure disease/neutralize poison isn't exactly in high demand to the point where an Artificer isn't going to be carrying these en masse anyways. This has literally zero use. SLA Restore Potion would make for an excellent SLA here instead.

Mastermaker: Correct me if I'm wrong but does it work with reconstruct? Because if it doesn't it's useless. If it does it's nice but not T5 worthy. By the time you hit the MCL on repair spells you have better healing options available. For a T5 this is -extremely- weak given the limitations that already exist on repair spells.

+MCL on admixtures: If these hadn't been baked in as baseline with the cores it'd be pretty trash. Without a way to quicken the animation though and the extremely low sp cost of the SLA's the extra 25~50 hp they'll heal for in heroics isn't exactly something I would specifically gun for. I get not everything needs to be in your face "HOLY COW!" (re: toughness) but...just...meh?

5 - Can we up the duration then on shield? 2 minute cooldowns are some of the most obnoxious things in video games to maintain and I played a Paladin in WoW. Try keeping 5 minute cooldowns up on 40 people. Really absolutely no reason for this to not be an always on thing or a 30 minute duration at least. Feel free to up the cast cost considerably, SP is not a problem for Artificers. While I can see the usefulness, it's honestly just not fun in it's current iteration. You're taking an ability and making it a -chore-.

Buffs should exist in two categories: Long enough duration to be effectively permanant or short duration/long cooldown 'burst' buffs. DDO already has -way- too many short duration/spammable buffs as is. Can we please stop adding to that pile? It's -terrible- gameplay.

6 - I strongly, -strongly- hope you'll find some way to make it less terrible. Any chance we can make it a toggle like seasons herald with a, say, 45 second cooldown and a graphic on your target of some kind? As it stands again, unless something has changed from the last PTR pass, it's just awful to use and nothing about it feels good.

As always, thanks for striving to make DDO better!

Steelstar
03-28-2018, 09:36 AM
For those curious, here's what Mighty Slam (which will use the normal Stun animation) followed by Battlefist (which is getting the new animation seen below) is going to look like:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/213303394071347200/428561994480615424/slammymcslamface.gif

Kza
03-28-2018, 09:47 AM
For those curious, here's what Mighty Slam (which will use the normal Stun animation) followed by Battlefist (which is getting the new animation seen below) is going to look like:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/213303394071347200/428561994480615424/slammymcslamface.gif

Argh.... Dont do awesome things like this.
I was 100% sure it was druid to try out first 1-30 and a week or two at cap.

My brain get it hard, too many choises.

Need to try out when live and see if viable/fun in reaper.

Really fun work in both druid and arty. New uniqe things and not "only" + mrr, prr melee/range/spell Power.

10/10

edrein
03-28-2018, 10:26 AM
For those curious, here's what Mighty Slam (which will use the normal Stun animation) followed by Battlefist (which is getting the new animation seen below) is going to look like:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/213303394071347200/428561994480615424/slammymcslamface.gif

Animation looks good but the damage... That's beyond paltry Steel. You stated it was scaled purposefully to take into account the helpless nature (and I'm sure you took that at a lower level without a lot of melee power) but still, that's not looking all that great for late heroics, epics, legendary, etc.

Edit: Clarifying I meant the sonic and force damage portion.

Steelstar
03-28-2018, 10:29 AM
Animation looks good but the damage... That's beyond paltry Steel. You stated it was scaled purposefully to take into account the helpless nature (and I'm sure you took that at a lower level without a lot of melee power) but still, that's not looking all that great for late heroics, epics, legendary, etc.

Edit: Clarifying I meant the sonic and force damage portion.

Please note that this terrible character I assembled in 45 seconds to show off this ability should not be taken as any sort of indicator about balance. It has no Destinies. I took Toughness for most feats. 75% of its gear slots are empty.

zehnvhex
03-28-2018, 10:56 AM
Alright, played around with some melee Arti builds in the new content.

0 - The upgraded versions of stunning fist don't benefit from Artificer levels according to the text. Didn't test really to see if it's just ~someone~ forgot to update the text or not though. /cough

1 - The damage, as anticipated, is extremely low. Going T5 RM locks you out of pretty much every damage ability/talent available to other Arti builds. I don't see this being a potential solo build at all in any capacity.

2 - I tried again going T5 battle as my primary instead and subbing into RM instead of Harper/Arcano. It...wasn't pretty. A single target 15 second CC and some SLA healing is not worth delaying getting KTA or Blasting Rod SLA. Clear times were noticeably slower which lead to taking more damage which lead to taking even longer etc...I had to drop down a reaper tier just to complete the first quest in the new chain.

3 - Battlefist was about as useful as a wet noodle. I can semi-reliably CC one target in a pack which means I can usually take the most dangerous champ out of the fight. Great on pulls of 2~4 mobs but the new quests are a return to the questionable design of "Let's make every mob pack have like, 12 mobs in it. That's fun right?" The damage is as advertised awful.

As soon as I got tactical detonation I pretty much stopped using slam/battlefist completely. It wasn't worth the hotbar spaces.

4 - Converter is still clunky. I tried using it on my hireling and using heal scrolls was just flat out better than converter/SLA helaing. Less overhead, less worrying about it if it dropped off. The only use I see for this is if you are in a static with a Palemaster.

5 - The constructs were all pretty much not worth the AP. The shield one could have use for carrying bads who don't have shield clickies but the duration and range is simply too small. "GATHER FOR SHIELD!" every 2 minutes is going to be terrible. The saves one worked pretty much as advertised. The regen one seemed glitchy. I got knocked unconscious at one point and the saves construct stayed on me, but the regen vanished. The healing from it is simply not noticeable.

6 - I don't like slam and battlefist having the same icon. I'm hoping this gets changed as well when the new animation for it goes in.

So in summation:

RenM is bad for melee builds. If you go T5 RenM you basically halve your damage potential. If you use RenM as an off tree you have to delay going deeper into BE or getting KTA/insightful damage, etc...etc...for slightly cheaper healing and not much else.

I didn't really feel any more tanky/able to survive than I did when not using the tree. The lower damage just puts you more at risk. I could possibly see giving up Arcano and going RenM once you hit epics but at that point you have significantly better healing options anyways so....what's the point?

Anyways...

I stand by my statements in the previous review thread. This tree is still having a significant crisis of identity and it suffers significantly for it. It lacks a lot of essential healing tools to be a healer tree. You definitely can't go pure tank with it and as a focus/splash for tanking you're straight up trading mitigation (~50 PRR less than current meta tanks, huge chunk of MRR as well) for avoidance/hp (15~25 AC give or take, 3 more dodge, 20% more hp).

The only niche I see for this is a Arcano Arti who is in a static group with a Palemaster Wizard. You'll be able to drop the 6 points or whatever for converter so the PM can heal himself with reconstruct.

Edit:

Before certain people show up, "It's okay for it to be mediocre because Normal difficulty is a thing" is not a valid counter-point to anything.

Memnir
03-28-2018, 10:59 AM
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/213303394071347200/428561994480615424/slammymcslamface.gif


https://media.giphy.com/media/rVVFWyTINqG7C/giphy.gif

zehnvhex
03-28-2018, 11:03 AM
For those curious, here's what Mighty Slam (which will use the normal Stun animation) followed by Battlefist (which is getting the new animation seen below) is going to look like:

<3

Absolutely beautiful. I love it. Will we have to worry about animation canceling putting the ability on cooldown? That is to say, does the ability go on CD after the damage portion or before the animation?

Thanks!

vms4ever
03-28-2018, 02:05 PM
I only did one quest (the first of the new ones) and it seemed that the core alchemical shield was not giving immunity to magic missiles but the shielding construct was (for 2 minutes). There was a lot going on and I wasn't able to confirm that it was magic missile vs something else that looked like magic missile, but it did hurt.

Edit: Ran another quest and the core alchemical shield was blocking magic missiles. Not sure whether there was a problem on the first run or not. First quest was immediately after doing the enhancements, second one was after logging.

UurlockYgmeov
03-28-2018, 02:10 PM
For those curious, here's what Mighty Slam (which will use the normal Stun animation) followed by Battlefist (which is getting the new animation seen below) is going to look like:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/213303394071347200/428561994480615424/slammymcslamface.gif

just wait until a Kobold Arti does that to a party! muhahahahaha!

https://i.imgur.com/Ps5Qbfy.gif

grausherra
03-28-2018, 02:15 PM
Shielding Construct: 30 sp: You create a construct that shields you and your allies. You and nearby allies (at the time of activation) gain the effects of the Shield spell for 2 minutes. Cooldown: 2 minutes. This effect is dispelled by Antimagic.



What did we, as the community of artificers in DDO, do to deserve a 2 min cool-down buff? Would the balance of the game have really been thrown off if you made the duration more player friendly? I know that artificers aren't you guys favourite class, but ****.

edrein
03-28-2018, 05:59 PM
Is there still a chance that we can get a small change pushed into Embed Component? I'd like to see a cross over point for Swashbuckler. I'd like it if you could take Embed Component or even T5 Paragon Body and swashbuckler while in medium armor. You've given up your evasion altogether, but you maintain the original theme of tabletop Swashbuckler which is blinding speed with your hands. 'Cyborg' hands are going to be deft enough. This would open a nice door for interesting multiclass options in my opinion, and reinforce the original idea of Music Box in Swashbuckler.

DrawingGuy
03-28-2018, 07:06 PM
The Shield spell is definitely underrated, and I've taught many people where to buy shield scrolls/wands (and nightshield scrolls) in the Marketplace. However considering that it is a level 1 spell that also has unlimited access with a small amount of UMD, I see no reason for Shielding Construct to have a nerfed duration on a T3 ability. It should work like the spell with a 1 min per caster level and 5 minute minimum (possibly also affected by Extend, though willing to lose out on that).

As a 2 minute spell on a 2 minute cooldown, I'd simply not waste my AP and continue to teach people where to get it themselves. Give it a proper duration like the normal spell has, and I'd take it in a second so as to cover those that haven't learned yet and save a few inventory slots.



I'm also on the fence regarding the aura and repair spell cap removal T5 abilities. Where they are amazing and build worthy with Radiant Servent as Positive Healing works for everyone other than Undead Wizzy builds and those noob enough to take the trash Improved Fortification feat, Repairs only work on two races and the very few that take construct feats. Converter helps this, but as others can attest, is clunky... and even with it, you're still only helping a small part of the party or raid.

What I think should happen is allow for the aura to also give 50% Repair Healing (assuming it can be coded to only apply if the target does not have higher repair from feats/race/Converter). This would make the repair lines of the tree a lot more natural to use along with the aura being generally useful instead of only partially. Converter would still have a place for tank healing or non-T5 RM builds.

Even with all that, it would still fall well behind a cleric due to the better access to Heal Amp and far less likelihood of people equiping Repair Amp at all, but I feel it is necessary for the repair nature of RM to work even semi-effectively for a party/raid.


@edrein - I personally don't see the need of RM allowing for Medium Armor Swashbuckler. You are already allowed to take advantage of the RM and Swashbuckler abilities together, and the defensive logics are completely different. Swashbuckling is all about being light on your feat with light armors and light weapons, while RM is about replacing your body with robotic (constructed) parts and those simply being tougher than flesh. Though unless they restrict Embed and Paragon to Addy/Medium+, you can already take advantage of almost everything RM has to offer while swashing in light armor.

slarden
03-28-2018, 07:13 PM
The 2 repair slas are gone.

edrein
03-28-2018, 07:30 PM
@edrein - I personally don't see the need of RM allowing for Medium Armor Swashbuckler. You are already allowed to take advantage of the RM and Swashbuckler abilities together, and the defensive logics are completely different. Swashbuckling is all about being light on your feat with light armors and light weapons, while RM is about replacing your body with robotic (constructed) parts and those simply being tougher than flesh. Though unless they restrict Embed and Paragon to Addy/Medium+, you can already take advantage of almost everything RM has to offer while swashing in light armor.

The cores themselves necessitate the switch to medium armor. Combined with the fact Embed Contruct locks you out of evasion entirely. It'd be better to have a small little exceptionary effect here. The same as Arcane Marauder, Cannoner, and Skirmisher add exceptions to the Swashbuckling stance to add additional offhand options. The idea is to allow the splashed build to use medium armor as they've already traded away the arguably 'better' defense of not getting hit for HP, etc.

Steelstar
03-28-2018, 07:41 PM
Is there still a chance that we can get a small change pushed into Embed Component? I'd like to see a cross over point for Swashbuckler. I'd like it if you could take Embed Component or even T5 Paragon Body and swashbuckler while in medium armor. You've given up your evasion altogether, but you maintain the original theme of tabletop Swashbuckler which is blinding speed with your hands. 'Cyborg' hands are going to be deft enough. This would open a nice door for interesting multiclass options in my opinion, and reinforce the original idea of Music Box in Swashbuckler.

We are very unlikely to ever allow Swashbuckling in Medium or Heavy armor.

edrein
03-28-2018, 07:51 PM
We are very unlikely to ever allow Swashbuckling in Medium or Heavy armor.

I was stating medium not heavy, but can you care to explain why?

As I see it; it's no different than splashing 6 fighter for the same benefits. Sure it's a smaller investment level wise but it also has the same amount of trade offs and gains.

Claver
03-29-2018, 05:01 AM
As a qualitative statement renegade master maker now "feels" better....battle fist helps

When the changes to Battle Engineer came along I made a gnome iconic 1 wizard/ 14 artificer bastard sword rune arm user. I ended up setting him aside because he just didn't do enough melee damage and lacked enough defense to go toe to toe

He feels playable (and fun) now that I can mix in battle fist/mighty slam as one more melee attack on timer to go along with thundershock and caustic strike. Having just a few more activated attacks seems to be making a big difference in how he feels to play. The increased defenses and self repair are essential as well in order for this character to survive in melee

I was also happy with renegade master maker as a purely defensive component converting my level 30 blade forged paladin over to a 14 paladin/ 6 artificer.

I'm not saying improvements are not needed. I'm saying that sometimes you get behind the wheel of a car for a test drive and you like how the car handles on the road - independent of any consideration of the cars price, reliability, mpg relative to other vehicles

I'll leave it to others to fine tune and balance DC/damage etc.

TDarkchylde
03-29-2018, 09:32 AM
For those curious, here's what Mighty Slam (which will use the normal Stun animation) followed by Battlefist (which is getting the new animation seen below) is going to look like:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/213303394071347200/428561994480615424/slammymcslamface.gif

Pardon my French, but... aw, ****! If nothing else, that's a sick animation! Not gonna lie, that alone is almost enough to get me to convert one of my current Artis to a melee.

DrawingGuy
03-29-2018, 12:34 PM
The cores themselves necessitate the switch to medium armor. Combined with the fact Embed Contruct locks you out of evasion entirely. It'd be better to have a small little exceptionary effect here. The same as Arcane Marauder, Cannoner, and Skirmisher add exceptions to the Swashbuckling stance to add additional offhand options. The idea is to allow the splashed build to use medium armor as they've already traded away the arguably 'better' defense of not getting hit for HP, etc.

There's no question that allowing for Medium armor would be stronger for anyone that does not take Evasion on a Swashbuckler build, but that still goes against the light and nimble premise of Swashbuckler. Swash already gets Dex cap benefits for Light armors, which is the same as the RM cores anyways. And the Alchemical Shield is only a permanent Shield spell (if not a much weaker version if it doesn't also protect against other missile types and grazing hit reduction like the Shield spell does) which you can get either via Shielding Construct or wands/scrolls.

In short, you don't need Medium/Heavy armor to properly take advantage of RM, but to allow for Medium Armor for Swashbuckler would break the prestige premise and affect balance for that tree. While the latter could be debated, I feel the original logic/lore should hold fast.

That said, Fighter vs Swash is a difficult debate. Swash gives you crit profiles with just a 2nd core, while Fighter takes T5 (Either fighter or BE, excluding you from the 20% HP) and 3rd core investment - a much heavier price. Up to you if you go for the cheap investment that has weapon/armor restrictions, or dive deeper into a different class to lift the weapon/armor restrictions, but cost you T5s and arty levels. There are of course more pros and cons when comparing the two -- if Battlefist used Spell Power instead of Melee Power, there would be nice synergy with the proc damage of Swash for example -- but balancing those choices (and millions of others) and making your own builds is a large part of what makes DDO great imo.


Ultimately Renegade Mastermaker is still sitting in the "not quite" position for me. Not quite a healer as Infusions are too clunky to use in combat, and Repair is too restricted - making my suggested change to the Aura to allow for 50% repair healing will go a long way to making it more natural. Also it doesn't quite save the Melee Artificer -- while the extra cleave and CC helps greatly, the single target nature in the mob swarm environment that is DDO is not enough to outweigh DPS investments or simply sticking to the safety of ranged. And lastly it doesn't really fill a tank role as the shield bonuses don't outweigh an actual shield, Intimidate is not a class skill and it is not getting an intim alternate, and its PRR/MRR gains fall short of Pally/Fighter. It does put itself in the running as a cross-class for tanking, but still would like to see it get a reliable taunt. My suggestion would be to replace the skills or toughness with an "Alarm Construct" (or "Klaxon") that does an Intimidate using the Disable Device skill.

While those two changes wouldn't put melee artificer in a DPS role (unless changes to melee combat to balance Reaper affects that), being able to properly use its toughness advantages to tank with a viable intimidate along with making aura and repair spells at least half useful to the party could create a fun alternative to cleric tanks, or at least a better support type role.

thunir
03-30-2018, 09:13 AM
Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by [15/30/50]%.

Why is this being singled out for Warforged? Embedded component works with Construct essence, why doesn't Reinforced armor?

DrawingGuy
03-30-2018, 10:24 AM
Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by [15/30/50]%.

Why is this being singled out for Warforged? Embedded component works with Construct essence, why doesn't Reinforced armor?

Reinforced Armor works for everyone, and is not being singled out to Warforged. As long as you're wearing armor or a docent that gives some armor AC value, that will be getting boosted by this ability.

slarden
03-30-2018, 12:29 PM
I thought the last version of the tree made more sense. I give this tree a C+. It has some merit for splashing, but not as good for a pure arti or a build with heavy arti levels.

just comparing this to 11 cleric 6 fighter 3 swashbuckler strength domain light axe stength divine might build in shadow dancer u38 you have evasion with high reflex save, knockdown immunity, immunity to stuns, great tactics, and great self healing. Pretty much superior in every way to a renegade master 20 arti.

this tree was shaping up to be a nice warforged bladeforged or fleshy turned machine int build melee tree, but now lost that. Seems like it might make a good splash for pal 15 arti 5 bladeforged for more hp and repair amp.

Jetrule
03-30-2018, 01:06 PM
I feel I may be missing something in my two attempts to utilize the arti changes. The melee warforged variant of pure arti I tried used tier 5 and 41 points BE and 12 points in warforged to get the most melee power I could. It also used 12 points in harper to make a int based build that couldnt have int to damage dispelled. This left 16 points for R.M.M ( I have one free racial enhancement point) I used the 16 RMM points for a melee cleave and 15% hit point bonus. (By the way we need to fix not being able to target players with the cure infussions). I was impressed with the builds dps and utility especially with the new ice rune arm freezing and the raw dps of Knives eternal. The rune arm dps and the very good cc potential make up for the lowerweapon dps of arti, compared to say a pure or mostly pure kensai heavy fighter. The defenses were a bit weak and the hit points a bit low by comparison. If you live through the onslaught self healing is alot easier on a arti melee. But I feel I would be loosing too much offense to go further into RMM. So I didn't.

I made a tank version of melee arti going blade forged pali 6 arti 12 wiz 2 This one I went T-5 RMM and 35 points T4 SD and 24 points and enough wizard for Eldritch Knight mage armor and shield. Enough Bladeforged for reconstruct sla and had 2 quickened reconstruct sla's, enough BE for faster rune arm recharge and enough Harper for kta. Despite all the self repair and repair amp I slotted it was under whelming as a self healer in mid reapers So to make a RMM reaper tank the party needs to have other classes or characters capable of repair spells. For the right party this would be a excellent tank. For solo questing or short manning low reapers it is a good tank with more offence and cc available than most current non warlock tank concepts. The hit points and repair were fantastic. The AC was incredible for a single weapon fighting character and could be improved on by abandoning all offence and going with a shield. The mitigation was ok also could be improved by droping the rune arm. With the force shields being the shining star of the defenses of the tree they wont last in long reaper fights. For the build to really tank it would need to use shields not a rune arm and there fore abandon the nice battle fist attacks and rune arm dps. The active attacks in the tree are much more effective and worth taking than say Stalwart/Sacred Defender active attacks.

Out side of a full party of robots though a RMM tank falls apart for me in mid and upper reapers. It plays best I think as a defense heavy solo build or tanky dps hybrid. With not enough of either to be a tank or dps for most parties in tough content. Bleh. I dont feel like the RMM tree needs to be the best tank tree in the game but it may be the best in a party full of forged or other arti's who can be healed by repair spells. I know we dont want to design for reaper but having some form of temp hit points available would be a great tanking touch. Maybe in the repair aura something like a warlock aura temp hit points aura int based if con based feels to powerful? A double temp hit point aura ticking from a arti warlock would be interesting and party friendly for the fleshies. There need to be feats or enhancements in the tree that allow a rune arm to count as a shield, say buckler/small / large for purposes of ac and the prr double strike portions of shield mastery feats and shield bonus ac enhancements and unyielding sentinel bonuses.. Not the shield bash if that requires re doing rune arms completely. But it would be nice if they did shield bash and used the battle fist animations. Tank trees need to use shield mastery feats. Make the rune arm function as a small shield through enhancements or arti feats and this tree would be much more attractive for tanking. If that proves unfeasible maybe feats or enhancements that adds shield a.c. and some prr mrr for rune arms? preferably feats that mimic shield mastery or replace the offensive portions with 1-2-3 spell lore enhancement instead of double strike, melee power and shield bash.. Just straight replace the saving throw constructs with that. Call it battle fist. :D

Ladislaio
03-30-2018, 08:28 PM
Artificer: Renegade Mastermaker Tree
Renegade Mastermaker is the third tree for Artificers. It focuses on improving your Healing, personal Defense, some Melee, and building things to buff you and your allies.
Easily Fixed: +10 Healing Amp, +20 Repair Amp
Mighty Slam: Single Target Melee Attack: +1/2/3[w]. You may stun the target for 6 seconds. Stunned creatures are considered helpless. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. (DC: 10 + Half Artificer Level + INT modifier + Sunder Modifiers). Requires an equipped Rune Arm to use.
Battlefist: You empower your Rune Arm to devastate a target with a powerful strike. Single Target Melee Attack: +3[w], if the target is under the effect of Mighty Slam's Stun, it takes 1d3 Sonic Damage per Artificer level, 1d3 Force Damage per Artificer level, and is knocked down for 10 seconds with no save. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power. Requires an equipped Rune Arm to use. (This is also gettng a cool new animation.)


Yay! more healing amp / repair amp! Thank you for adding Easily Fixed, makes this tree much better :)

I will likely not use Mighty Slam or Battlefist, but I am very glad that they got added to the tree, and I am even more glad that 1/2 arti level got added to the DC on Mighty Slam so it is more likely to be useful. I think that if you build for it you can hit the DC's you need to with that ability.


Overall I am pretty happy with this tree for tanking. I did some testing on lammy land and I think that it opens up some variations on tanking builds, at least one of which I'm going to be moving my ubertank into.

Some screenshots of tank builds; These are all in the same gear, ed, and Reaper enhancements. They are all missing Quality con 4. Gear includes a 4pc Shroud HP set, Knight of Shadows Tank set, Bracers of the Fallen Hero, Planar Compass, The new Wisdom/Hamp helm, Crafted 15 cha / 15 dex / 18 insightful MRR ring, and a +2 store pot. All buffs are self-cast (not scrolled). The new shield and the new scimitar were used to get that tiny extra tanking set bonus.
Scion of Elemental Plane of Fire (10 PRR/MRR, fire damage on hit) was the selected level 30 feat for each build also; typical tank builds on the forums seem to favor Scion of Celesta (150 hp, +4 to will saves), but scion of fire works out to about the same effective HP and actually provides some threat (not much tho).

14 Fighter / 5 Paladin / 1 Wizard
The "standard" tank build. T5 Paladin. 363 from heal from spirit binder. 16% dodge.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/408891613507747841/428681136454107136/ScreenShot00144.jpg

13 Artificer / 6 Paladin / 1 Wizard
Tank focused arti split. T5 RMM. Does not have deadly weapons; 264 heal from spirit binder. 18% dodge.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/408891613507747841/428701373329047552/ScreenShot00146.jpg

13 Artificer / 6 Paladin / 1 Wizard
Same as above, but t5 in SaD.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/408891613507747841/428711122900877322/ScreenShot00147.jpg

15 Artificer / 4 Paladin / 1 Wizard
Dwarf, not Aasimar; Tank split but with deadly weapons. t5 RMM; 21% dodge (really hard to fill). 230 heal from spirit binder (So about 60% as good effective hamp as "standard" Aasimar tank build)
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/408891613507747841/428774230641999872/ScreenShot00153.jpg

14 Cleric (animal) / 5 Paladin / 1 Wizard
So maybe I was getting tired of doing these, but here is a cleric tank to peak at. t5 SaD
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/408891613507747841/428810311223607306/ScreenShot00105.jpg

My thoughts? This is a fine tanking tree. I'd love something that reduces the positive healing penality for being WF / Construct essence in the tree too, but beyond that I think it is fairly shiny and eagerly away tr'n my tank into something with it :)

Nubom70
03-31-2018, 06:12 PM
Are they ever going to make that thing smaller, or make it a moveable bar so we can put it someplace else? The most annoying thing about playing an arti, is having to constantly stare at a 2-inch wide glowing batch of runes in the middle of the screen. It blocks view, and if you elect not to use it, you automatically lose at least 24 universal power. It's pretty rediculous they haven't fixed that after this many years... Oh, but they removed the sound and didn't put in a toggle? Really.

Also, Conjure Component: 10 Spell Points:You conjure a large number of components.... etc etc. In DnD, admixtures never required a potion, to summon a potion. They were made on the fly. Same reason you don't need a 50-LB crate of turret parts to summon a turret. Yet, they found it needed to add THIS, to fix something that shouldn't even have happened. At a bare minimum, you should be able to Eschew it, not do a halfass fix that shouldn't exist.

GramercyRiff
04-10-2018, 10:33 AM
Isn't the Battlefist animation just the shield attack that armored skeletons do?

Also I really cannot stand that Battlefist and Mighty Slam can't seemingly be used on reds.

Still hoping this and Druid are fun, but nothing for either seems like it will be for me.

Nubom70
04-10-2018, 05:52 PM
Yeah, they never fixed the admixture screwup, and it's been how many years now?