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Steelstar
03-20-2018, 11:40 AM
Hey, folks. Thanks for all of the feedback in Round 1 of Lamannia. There was a lot of varied feedback, but a few specifics appeared frequently:

Too many SLAs
Some abilities not feeling like they're worth taking, especially the Constructs
Battlefist being an important part of the P&P Prestige Class
Not having enough to do outside of healing
Not enough in the low tiers to make the tree worth splashing into


We've tried to address a lot of this where possible - The following should be close to what you see in Round Two of Lamannia, though we have a bit of time left to make adjustments if feedback gets in fast enough. I've highlighted changes in Yellow.

(Left out the General/Arcanotechnician/Admixture changes. These haven't changed since last time.)


Artificer: Renegade Mastermaker Tree
Renegade Mastermaker is the third tree for Artificers. It focuses on improving your Healing, personal Defense, some Melee, and building things to buff you and your allies.

https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/MastermakerV2.png

Removed from previous preview:


Stronger Admixtures (worked into Cores)
Repair Light Damage SLA
Repair Moderate Damage SLA
Instant Fix


Cores:
Core 1: Each core ability in this tree grants you +10 Maximum Hit Points, +5 Positive Spell Power and +5 Repair Spell Power.
Core 2: While in Medium Armor, Heavy Armor, or Adamantine Body, your equipped armor grants you a +4 Alchemical bonus to AC and immunity to Magic Missiles.
Core 3: Curative Admixture: CSW SLA. 4 Spell Points. 8 second cooldown. Passive: Your Admixture spells gain +4 to their Maximum Caster Level.
Core 4: +30 Repair Amplification. +50 Maximum Hit Points. +2 Max Dex Bonus while in Medium Armor, Heavy Armor, or Adamantine Body Passive: Your Admixture spells gain +6 to their Maximum Caster Level.
Core 5: Radiant Forcefield SLA. 30 Spell Points. 3 minute cooldown.
Core 6: +2 CON, +2 INT. +10 PRR, +10 MRR, +3 to Max Dex Bonus while in Medium Armor, Heavy Armor, or Adamantine Body. Active: Mass Unbreakable Forcefield: For 6 seconds, your entire party takes -95% damage from all sources (except Untyped damage). 3 minute cooldown. (This is a separate cooldown from the non-Mass version).

Tier 1:


Curative Admixture: CLW SLA. 4/3/2 Spell Points. 12/8/6 second cooldown.
Easily Fixed: +10 Healing Amp, +20 Repair Amp
Supporting Construction: While in Medium or Heavy Armor (or Adamantine Body), +2/4/6 PRR.
Skills: Repair/Heal/Balance
Toughness: +5/10/15 max hp


Tier 2:


Kinetic Discharge: Active Melee Cleave Attack: On hit, +1/2/3[w] and 2d6 Force damage. This damage scales with 200% Melee Power. 10 second cooldown.
Mighty Slam: Single Target Melee Attack: +1/2/3[w]. You may stun the target for 6 seconds. Stunned creatures are considered helpless. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. (DC: 10 + INT modifier + Sunder Modifiers). Requires an equipped Rune Arm to use.
Armor Mastery: +1/2/3 Armor Class and Armor Max Dex Bonus
Converter: You create a small device that floats near an ally. Target player, hireling, or Druid Wolf pet at touch range takes 100% base healing from Repair spells for the next 3 minutes (or until target dies). This overrides their innate base healing from Repair spells for the duration. 3 minute cooldown.
Action Boost: Action Boost: Defense OR Action Boost: Saving Throws


Tier 3:


Conjure Component: 10 Spell Points:You conjure a large number of components that stand in for the Potion requirements in all of your Admixture spells. These expire on logout.
Battlefist: You empower your Rune Arm to devastate a target with a powerful strike. Single Target Melee Attack: +3[w], if the target is under the effect of Mighty Slam's Stun, it takes 1d3 Sonic Damage per Artificer level, 1d3 Force Damage per Artificer level, and is knocked down for 10 seconds with no save. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power. Requires an equipped Rune Arm to use. (This is also gettng a cool new animation.)
Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by [15/30/50]%.
Shielding Construct: 30 sp: You create a construct that shields you and your allies. You and nearby allies (at the time of activation) gain the effects of the Shield spell for 2 minutes. Cooldown: 2 minutes. This effect is dispelled by Antimagic.
CON/INT


Tier 4:


Kinetic Charge: Passive: Any time you hit an opponent in Melee, you have a chance of gaining a stack of Kinetic Charge. Each stack grants a +1 Shield Bonus to AC for every 3 Artificer Levels you have. This stacks up to five times (for a potential total of +30). Stacks decrement by 1 every 15 seconds, and gaining a new stack resets the duration. Toggle: When this ability is toggled on, using Kinetic Discharge will clear all stacks of Kinetic Charge and slow (both movement and attack speed) all affected (non-boss) enemies by 10% per stack cleared for 10 seconds.
Reconstruct SLA 35/30/25 Spell Points. 30/15/6 second cooldown. Shares a cooldown with other Reconstruct SLAs.
Embed Component: Construct Essence or Warforged Required. +5/10/15 MRR and +2/4/6 Constitution. You can no longer use Evasion, Druid Wild Shape feats, or Primal Avatar's Tree form.
Warding Construct: You create a drone set to counter magical spells. Every 10 seconds, you and nearby allies gain a +3 Alchemical bonus to Saving Throws vs. Magic and +3 Alchemical bonus to Saving Throws vs. Traps that lasts for 10 seconds. 4sp Activation. This construct (and its effects) last indefinitely until dispelled by relogging, Death, or Antimagic.
CON/INT


Tier 5:


Curative Admixture: Cure Critical Wounds SLA. 5 Spell Points. 12 second cooldown.
Multiselector: Forcefield

Unbreakable Forcefield: For 6 seconds, your target takes -95% damage from all sources (except Untyped damage). 3 minute cooldown. (This is a separate cooldown from the Mass version).
Reactive Forcefield: When you drop below 50% hitpoints, gain the effects of Unbreakable Forcefield for 6 seconds automatically. 90 second cooldown. (This is a separate cooldown from the non-Mass version).


Paragon Body:You no longer suffer Arcane Spell Failure from armor. You gain +4 to Fortitude Saves and +20% Racial bonus to maximum hit points.
Regeneration Construct: You are surrounded by arcane energy capable of repairing damage. Allies (equal to your Artificer level) are Repaired for 1 hit point per 3 Artificer levels as long as they are near you. This construct (and its effects) last indefinitely until dispelled by relogging, Death, or Antimagic. 30sp Activation.
Mastermaker: Your Repair Wounds spells have no maximum caster level.

grausherra
03-20-2018, 12:01 PM
The tree seems a little less manic now.

Any chance of fiddling with the numbers of Supporting Construction in Tier 1? Rangers for example in tempest pick up +3/+6/+10 from improved parry.

edrein
03-20-2018, 12:04 PM
This looks a lot better Steelstar, thanks for listening to the feedback and making adjustments.

That being said; I like the concept of the Battlefist ability but think it might work better as an actual weapon imbuement with a chance to proc the knock down effect.

Edit: Why the Anti-magic portion? If the construct is a separate entity from the player why not allow it to simply persist (as it not having to recast it) but 'silence' the effect during the Anti-Magic effect?


Also is there any chance that you can make that Half Elf Artificer Dilettante give Rune Arm access either innately or when you take the T2 version in the racial tree? This would open the door for quite a few new interesting build types.

Bonus points if you also consider allowing certain thematic runearms to not break druidic oath such as Corruption of Nature.

grausherra
03-20-2018, 12:09 PM
certain thematic runearms to not break druidic oath such as Corruption of Nature.

I would say that is the 1 runearm that thematically would HAVE to break druidic oath.

Steelstar
03-20-2018, 12:09 PM
Also is there any chance that you can make that Half Elf Artificer Dilettante give Rune Arm access either innately or when you take the T2 version in the racial tree? This would open the door for quite a few new interesting build types.


There was a time we'd tried to prototype giving that to Half Elf Arti Dilettantes and Gnomes; however, the Rune Arm System has a few things baked in that hard-scale with Arti levels. So you'd fire your Rune Arm for 1d6x(Actual Arti Level)... or effectively zero damage.

Might be able to put together a more open system someday that would allow for that, but probably not in the near future.

edrein
03-20-2018, 12:10 PM
Additional thoughts: Please drop Kinetic Discharge to T1 for parity to Eldritch Strike.

Change Kinetic Charge and Regenerate Construct to every 2 artificer levels rather than every 3. This is mostly due to our heroic levels capping at 20, not 30. IE: More benefit for pures if the scaling is even than odd.

Better melee power scaling on damage effects: If there's one thing I've noticed and felt keenly across the board with every class pass, is that most of the time you all miss the mark on melee power scaling. The bear tree is currently suffering greatly due to this atleast on the first Lamannia preview it was. Bump the Battlefist melee power scaling to about 300%, let us test it at that value on Lamannia before using the 100% value please. As 1d3 x 100% isn't going to be a really noticable damage proc.

Claver
03-20-2018, 12:11 PM
Battlefist: You empower your Rune Arm to devastate a target with a powerful strike. Single Target Melee Attack: +3[w], if the target is under the effect of Mighty Slam's Stun, it takes 1d3 Sonic Damage per Artificer level, 1d3 Force Damage per Artificer level, and is knocked down for 10 seconds with no save. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power. Requires an equipped Rune Arm to use. (This is also gettng a cool new animation.)


This is awesome...particularly the new animation part

I'm am significantly more interested in the tree now as a primary focus of a character build rather than as a supplement to some other tree

edrein
03-20-2018, 12:12 PM
There was a time we'd tried to prototype giving that to Half Elf Arti Dilettantes and Gnomes; however, the Rune Arm System has a few things baked in that hard-scale with Arti levels. So you'd fire your Rune Arm for 1d6x(Actual Arti Level)... or effectively zero damage.

Might be able to put together a more open system someday that would allow for that, but probably not in the near future.

I was thinking more along the lines of the damage imbuement rather than actual rune arm use in the initial run.

But on the subject wouldn't it be wiser to use character level for Runearms? Atleast in the concept of once you hit epic levels for calculations. I mean it sort of benefits splash builds, but at the same time the majority of Runearm 'oomph' as it is held behind the class itself.

Edit: Doesn't the Dilettante also provide 'artificer levels' as far as items and casting is concerned? Or does that not apply to the runearms per your post? Definitely seems like a strange limit on the technical end.

Steelstar
03-20-2018, 12:14 PM
Additional thoughts: Please drop Kinetic Discharge to T1 for parity to Eldritch Strike.

Change Kinetic Charge and Regenerate Construct to every 2 artificer levels rather than every 3. This is mostly due to our heroic levels capping at 20, not 30. IE: More benefit for pures if the scaling is even than odd.

Better melee power scaling on damage effects: If there's one thing I've noticed and felt keenly across the board with every class pass, is that most of the time you all miss the mark on melee power scaling. The bear tree is currently suffering greatly due to this atleast on the first Lamannia preview it was. Bump the Battlefist melee power scaling to about 300%, let us test it at that value on Lamannia before using the 100% value please. As 1d3 x 100% isn't going to be a really noticable damage proc.

A 20 Arti using it is getting 20d3 Sonic + 20d3 Force, multiplied by Melee Power, multiplied by Helpless bonuses (this will only ever land if the target is under the effect of Mighty Slam's stun!). Going to keep an eye on it where it is for now.

edrein
03-20-2018, 12:16 PM
A 20 Arti using it is getting 20d3 Sonic + 20d3 Force, multiplied by Melee Power, multiplied by Helpless bonuses (this will only ever land if the target is under the effect of Mighty Slam's stun!). Going to keep an eye on it where it is for now.

Hmm, I suppose that's reasonable and I'll have to give it a whirl. Still not a fan of making it an active attack, especially one that relies on Mighty Slam's stun effect being on the target. If it's going to remain like this, can we get the damage portion to apply as a cleave/burst centered on the target? As of right now things are feeling a bit heavy on the single target portion overall for melee artificers.

ForgettableNPC
03-20-2018, 12:18 PM
Steelstar: Hey look! Battlefist!

Me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ALwKeSEYs



Okay in all seriousness.

I do like having more offensive options, this is good, I'm okay with trading in the lower-tier Repair SLAs for those. Now we just need a good source of Melee Power to take advantage of them...but none of the Arti trees give any melee power with their Enhancements.

Cores are better, yay.

Shielding Construct...good when it's needed, but not like a must-need buff for every situation. Upside is being able to keep it up indefinitely, but when you compare it to a level 1 Shield Spell that has a longer duration than the construct...At least it's a mass buff, so classes that can't handle magic missiles without outside help might find it useful with a Mastermaker in their party.

Warding Construct: Better. Less issue about the difference between effect duration and cooldown.

Hmm, not sure if I'll ever be inclined to take the Unbreakable Forcefield multiselector since it's on double the cooldown of the Reactive one. Depending on how long its casting time is, it might not be worth it to take considering you want it to go up when your target is in the middle of taking a lot of damage, and casting time might make it come in too late.

Regeneration Construct: So no more Rust damage to constructs, but lasts potentially forever. I'm kind of okay with this since if you're looking to heal yourself, there's no problem. Maybe one non-construct ally while you have the Converter on them. But considering you can only convert one ally every 3 minutes, I don't think people will be relying on this to heal their allies so much.

Eelpout
03-20-2018, 12:22 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of the damage imbuement rather than actual rune arm use in the initial run.

But on the subject wouldn't it be wiser to use character level for Runearms? Atleast in the concept of once you hit epic levels for calculations. I mean it sort of benefits splash builds, but at the same time the majority of Runearm 'oomph' as it is held behind the class itself.


I think the damage imbuement would certainly be the right amount of a perk for a dilettante. I am by no means a build expert, but I think using character level for runearms would be too much. It would give a half-elf mechanic a bit too much with the full potential of runearms and not having to splash.

Maelodic
03-20-2018, 12:23 PM
This is going to be a fun tree - good work on refocusing it! I also like the power added- it looks like you've done it in a unique way rather than adding raw stats.

edrein
03-20-2018, 12:27 PM
I think the damage imbuement would certainly be the right amount of a perk for a dilettante. I am by no means a build expert, but I think using character level for runearms would be too much. It would give a half-elf mechanic a bit too much with the full potential of runearms and not having to splash.

I rarely ever remember to use my runearm as is. To me the damage imbuement on attacks is a large part of the appeal and why I had made the original suggestion. I had made the secondary one about character level for helping scale runearms better in epics, the dilettante and any form gnome might get would probably be wise to scale at half character level if artificer levels aren't present.

edrein
03-20-2018, 12:31 PM
I would say that is the 1 runearm that thematically would HAVE to break druidic oath.

"This magical device, found in Eveningstar's hospital, seems to somehow have been altered by the magical plague afflicting the villagers. When worn by an Artificer capable of channeling energy through it, it infects them with a benign version of the disease, temporarily toughening their skin for as long as the rune arm is worn."

Given the text and the effects on the item, I'd actually argue its one of the most 'druid appropriate' runearms as its more 'attuned' to nature rather than being merely a magical construct. The most thematic runearms to break Oath would be Lucid Dreams and Machination of Madness, despite loving the concept of some mad druid flinging bees at people, due to their extra-planar nature.

List of Druid Appropriate Runearms:
Corruption of Nature
St. Mur'ay's Fire
Khyber's Fury
The Pea Shooter
Arm of the Archons
Archaic Device
Knives Eternal

Aelonwy
03-20-2018, 12:31 PM
Okay please tell me there is a new rune arm that looks like a giant's fist in our future.

Arkat
03-20-2018, 12:40 PM
At least make it 10 seconds...for all of them.

zehnvhex
03-20-2018, 12:45 PM
Hi Steel!

Thanks for taking the feedback and rolling with it. We're making progress! Still not quite there yet.

Some further suggestions that haven't been mentioned:

1 - The conjure components for admixtures is pointless. The SLA's don't have a component, you won't use the normal versions over the SLA's in any given circumstance so that means it's really only useful for disease/poison admixtures and I'm willing to bet if you pulled the number of Artificers in the game that use those spells you'd get an imaginary number because they simply don't exist. Something different needs to go here.

2 - Converter on a 3 minute cooldown is very problematic. I imagine there are scripting/engine limitations here. Is there any chance we could make it a toggle of some sort? You may need to change your target occasionally, or you cast it on someone, they die and then you're stuck without someone to heal for 3 minutes. 3 minutes is long enough that I'm constantly going to be wondering if it's about to wear off, etc...it's just going to be one of those enhancements that are nice but obnoxious to use.

I want this to be an ability and a good one, but you need to find a way to make it not awful/annoying to have to keep up.

3 - Can we make shielding construct something a little more unique and useful rather than a spell everyone has easy access to anyways? Maybe something like stacking 1 dr/- per 2 artificer levels, double in epics?

4 - Regeneration construct is weak still for a T5. The problem is that while conceptually creating an ability similar to positive energy aura sounds neat it neglects the problems that are

- Positive Energy Aura is already kinda weak for a T5 so your'e copying a kind of awful ability
- Players have ridiculous amounts of heal amp to at least make it useful
- Nearly everyone can be healed. Waforged aren't really meta so repair is kinda...meh?

If Converter affected your entire party that would make it at least somewhat useful. Since converter is single target that makes a T5 AE repair kinda chump.

I would consider having it add a temp hp determination bonus equal to your int score every 2 seconds. Similar to warlock brilliance but for Arti int.

5- Mastermaker is currently literally garbage. Nobody cares about max repair levels. For a T5 in a tree about being an awesome cyborg hybrid this is underwhelming at best and insulting at face value.

Let's try to make it something exciting.

Mastermaker: You spells gain the effect of Quicken Metamagic at no additional cost. In addition, your admixture spells are now quickened as well and gain an effect similar to precise shot and will now clip through enemies.

This would address the issue of slow cast speeds for admixtures, offer something interesting and unique and make it worth considering.

Anyways...

We're going in the right direction. Let's keep going!

edrein
03-20-2018, 12:53 PM
Hi Steel!
2 - Converter on a 3 minute cooldown is very problematic. I imagine there are scripting/engine limitations here. Is there any chance we could make it a toggle of some sort? You may need to change your target occasionally, or you cast it on someone, they die and then you're stuck without someone to heal for 3 minutes. 3 minutes is long enough that I'm constantly going to be wondering if it's about to wear off, etc...it's just going to be one of those enhancements that are nice but obnoxious to use.

4 - Regeneration construct is weak still for a T5. The problem is that while conceptually creating an ability similar to positive energy aura sounds neat it neglects the problems that are

- Positive Energy Aura is already kinda weak for a T5 so your'e copying a kind of awful ability
- Players have ridiculous amounts of heal amp to at least make it useful
- Nearly everyone can be healed. Waforged aren't really meta so repair is kinda...meh?

If Converter affected your entire party that would make it at least somewhat useful. Since converter is single target that makes a T5 AE repair kinda chump.

I would consider having it add a temp hp determination bonus equal to your int score every 2 seconds. Similar to warlock brilliance but for Arti int.


2. Definitely in agreement over the cooldown.

4. I'm in agreement that the amount is low for the effect. I personally think it should be about 20 base healing + 1 per artificer level. This means you're looking at ticks of 40 before repair amp and/or reaper reductions. If it's pumping out a base 40 for a pure artificer before repair spell power, repair amp, and/or reaper I think it'll be in a good place. The same place that Positive Energy Aura needs to be bumped up to as well.

On the other end of the spectrum, I don't think a full temp HP bonus route would be worth it. If it popped for say a good 20-40HP and 20-40 temp HP on each tic, then I'd like it as effect. It's thematic and makes sense, it doesn't directly compete with warlocks (in the sense that it'll be the next best thing in comparison) but it adds a niche for party support.

Requiro
03-20-2018, 01:11 PM
<snip> I've highlighted changes in Yellow. Great![/COLOR]
[/LIST]

Some questions:
- Core 3 and 4 - passive maximum caster levels are cumulative?
- What is a cooldown for: Might Slam and Battlefist?
- Unbreakable Forcefield – work on your or only your alies?

And Some thoughts:
- Core 6 – Great improvement.

- Easily Fixed – Good T1 ability, but maybe add some Repair Spell Power? Or maybe 1-2% Repair spell critical?

- Mighty Slam – It’s will be great in heroic CC ability, but because of save I don’t think it will be useful on epics

- Battlefist – Great ability, but again – requite Mighty Slam, so because of Fortitude save may be useless in Epic

- Shielding Construct – Nice mass spell, but unfortunately very low duration. Basic duration of Shield Spell is 5 minutes. Maybe 1/1/1 AP for 2/4/6 second and doubled in Epic? And remove that cooldown to 10-15 second. You will not spam this ability for 30 sp.

- Warding Construct – With so short duration (10 sec.), why not made it passive like other auras?

- Unbreakable Forcefield – very long cool down, average for T5 ability, especially with Core 6 for pure artificer.

- Reactive Forcefield – If this ability are designed like a life saver, then if should be activated when HP drop to 20-30%. 50% is when you start healing yourself, and not waste of this precious ability. I suggest drop activation on 20% HP and increase duration to 10-12 second. That will give you time to heal yourself.

- IMO both Forcefiled ability are average/week for T5.

- Regeneration Construct: Average to low Healing capability. Can’t be mata and don’t do any damage. I suggest add rust damage (that will affect only enemy’s constructs) and add passive 2% Repair Critical spell.

Steelstar
03-20-2018, 01:19 PM
Some questions:
- Core 3 and 4 - passive maximum caster levels are cumulative?
- What is a cooldown for: Might Slam and Battlefist?
- Unbreakable Forcefield – work on your or only your alies?

Yes, cumulative.
Tentatively: 15 seconds and 15 seconds.
The Tier 5 version is single-target (you or allies). The Guard version in Tier 5 is passive and self-only.



And Some thoughts:
- Easily Fixed – Good T1 ability, but maybe add some Repair Spell Power? Or maybe 1-2% Repair spell critical?

You're already getting a bit of Repair Spell Power out of the first Core. We may try to fit some Repair Spell Crit in somewhere.



- Mighty Slam – It’s will be great in heroic CC ability, but because of save I don’t think it will be useful on epics

- Battlefist – Great ability, but again – requite Mighty Slam, so because of Fortitude save may be useless in Epic

Should be roughly equivalent to the usefulness of Stunning Blow in Epics, depending on your build.



- Shielding Construct – Nice mass spell, but unfortunately very low duration. Basic duration of Shield Spell is 5 minutes. Maybe 1/1/1 AP for 2/4/6 second and doubled in Epic? And remove that cooldown to 10-15 second. You will not spam this ability for 30 sp.

It's short, but it's one of the only ways of casting the Shield spell en masse. Which is useful when, say, you're wandering in the woods around a Windmill and way too many Wisps show up spamming Magic Missile.



- Warding Construct – With so short duration (10 sec.), why not made it passive like other auras?

It is, more or less. You cast it, and every 10 seconds it refreshes a 10-second buff on nearby allies. This keeps happening until you die or encounter antimagic.

ForgettableNPC
03-20-2018, 01:22 PM
I also would like to see the Mighty Slam scale with Artificer Levels too just to be able to slam->battlefist better in higher difficulties.

HuneyMunster
03-20-2018, 01:26 PM
I wouldn't mind a battlefist rune arm while using a weapon in main hand act like secondary shield bash with chance to proc depending on rune arm tier charge.

Propane
03-20-2018, 01:49 PM
Hey, folks.
Mighty Slam: Single Target Melee Attack: +1/2/3[w]. You may stun the target for 6 seconds. Stunned creatures are considered helpless. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. (DC: 10 + INT modifier + Sunder Modifiers). Requires an equipped Rune Arm to use.

[/LIST]

Sunder or Stunning Modifier?

Agree with the comments above - if you are working towards a followup action, 6 secs is tight- 8 -10 is more practical-

Steelstar
03-20-2018, 01:55 PM
Sunder or Stunning Modifier?


Sunder. It lines up with what we did over in Battle Engineer.

btolson
03-20-2018, 01:57 PM
It's a pity that Battlefist does little against Rednames. Maybe a few stacks of vulnerability?

Ultramaetche1
03-20-2018, 02:11 PM
Should be roughly equivalent to the usefulness of Stunning Blow in Epics, depending on your build.

Except that stunning blow is inferior to the main stun people use in epics, Dire Charge. Charge is AOE, WAY higher DC. 20+Highest vs Stunning Blows restrictive 10+STR. Also, the cool down of Stunning Blow is 3 seconds longer than charge. Basically I'm trying to say that Stunning Blow is vastly lacking compared to other helpless inducing options in Epic.

Stunning Blow: 10 + STR + Stun mods
stuns 6 sec, CD 15 sec

Stunning Fist: 10 + WIS + 1/2 Char.Lvl + Stun mods
stuns 6 sec, CD 6 sec, DC is +15 versus Blow meaning you need 30 STR more than WIS to compensate for the difference in DC scaling

Dire Charge: 20 + Highest stat +Stun mods
stuns 6 sec, CD 12 sec, AOE, +10 DC versus blow and doesn't restrict you to a strength based build

Stunning Shield: 10+ Char.Lvl + Highest stat + Stun mods
stuns 6 sec, CD 30 sec, very long CD, however DC is 30 higher than blow, and uses highest ability removing the requirement for a strength based build

And now you're saying that this stun will be on par with by far the ****tiest of the stuns available... Maybe amp stunning blow by either:
A) Reducing CD to either 6 or 10, or
B) Increasing DC to 10+ 1/2 Char.Lv, or
C) A little of both A & B

That would make Stunning Blow actually competitive in all content, instead of heroic only. Then, if this new arty ability is mirroring the feat it will also be viable.

Just my 2 cents

zehnvhex
03-20-2018, 02:13 PM
It's short, but it's one of the only ways of casting the Shield spell en masse. Which is useful when, say, you're wandering in the woods around a Windmill and way too many Wisps show up

From a practicality standpoint if you're coordinated enough to all be standing together to get use out of mass shield, you're coordinated enough to all be carrying shield wands and/or have it otherwise available to you. Why not make it mass jump? Mass detect secret doors?

That's about how useful this is.

I get that you guys are skittish about putting in OP stuff but you really shouldn't go the opposite way and make stuff that nobody will bother taking.


Should be roughly equivalent to the usefulness of Stunning Blow in Epics, depending on your build.

Slam - At a 15 second cooldown, single target, tied to a follow-up ability I'd say mayahps make it last 2 seconds even on a successful save so it's useful for people that don't have the gear/PL's yet to reliably hit DC's? DDO has enough all or nothing abilities and that's why you're in the pickle you're in right now with DC casting. Time to start moving away from that.

Moreover with the battlefist ability, are you going to add a debuff to the slam portion so that you can get the extra benefit on bosses/champions/etc...that can't be stunned?


It is, more or less. You cast it, and every 10 seconds it refreshes a 10-second buff on nearby allies. This keeps happening until you die or encounter antimagic.

Does this mean every 10 seconds I'm going to have a notification float across my screen when a buff is added? Because that was happening with the constructs on PTR and it was annoying.

Arriene
03-20-2018, 02:26 PM
Some initial thoughts on the tree as it stands:

-Some people have already mentioned the converter. I love this ability conceptually, but it seems awkward to use, at the moment. A mass version, or the ability to have it running on multiple targets would be lovely, but also way too much for a tier one, and would bring artis a little too close to doing everything well. That said, making this a single target toggle (Similar to Season's Herald's Crown of Summer) could be a huge quality of life difference, and make the ability much more appealing

-Curative Admixture SLAs look cool, and are a nice bit of extra healing. Are there any plans for looking into making these spells more consistant? It feels like admixtures fizzle and do nothing far too often on live for them to be something I'd want to spend points on.

-Mighty Slam sounds great, but I'd definitely like to see some sort of class scaling on it. Maybe similar to Warchanter's Frozen Fury, so 0/quarter/half class levels? Most (all?) other class based CC abilities seem to have some degree of level scaling, so it seems odd that this one doesn't.

-Battlefist is an amazing concept, and no-save CC sounds amazing. That said, I worry about its usefulness, with Mighty Slam's current version making it possibly quite hard to land in endgame content, and unless I'm missing something, the damage will be good while levelling, but won't scale that impressively: 40D3 damage averages at around 80, before melee power and helplessness. Compared with, say, a Morninglord's Bastard Sword or War Axe, which will be doing a bare minimum of 9[1D10+2]+15 (5[W] Base + 1 Deadly + 3[W] for mighty slam) or 82.5 average, before any other buffs, or equipment, or even stat-to-damage, which also scales with melee power and helplessness, I don't see it packing much of a punch (Pun intended)

-Shielding Construct: I love this ability. Protection from magic missiles isn't something you always need, but it's something you really need when you need it. Giving it to a whole party sounds amazing.

-Warding Construct: Again, I love this. The save boost is enough to be noticable, but not so much it feels needed, and having it permanently active reduces the number of cooldowns that need juggling.

-Regeneration Construct: Fire and forget healing, for you and whichever nearby person you put your converter on. Sounds good to me.

-Unbreakable Forcefield: It's a panic button for your tank, or for the entire team if you invest enough to reach capstone. The possibilities for this are huge. 6 seconds seems short, but any longer and the potential uptime, especially with multiple artificers, will be a problem, so it makes sense.

All in all, I love the tree as a concept, and there are enough interesting abilities that I'm seriously considering turning my Arti into a Mastermaker when it goes live, since I'll probably miss the next Lamannia. As is, the tree looks attractive for dipping, or a secondary tree on a pure arti, but as a primary tree there's just a little something missing for it to be truly special.

SerPounce
03-20-2018, 02:31 PM
What do you think of making the melee attack DCs INT or STR based? I imagine most melee artificers are going to go int based, but I feel like strength should be an option for any melee type.

Revolted
03-20-2018, 02:38 PM
My 2 cents:

1st cent: This is tentativelly a tree for melee. Although not exclusively, it is directed to the much asked for arti melees. It's missing something to make that melee hability a bit better, from a bit of melee power (like 20-35 mp throughout the tree, so the effects that scale with MP wouldn't be pointless), to a chance of getting beneficts from SWF line with usage of rune-arm, without splashing bard (the bonus should be different then, as to make it a choice), or even its own martial line of feats. Otherwise, the melee part of the tree will be unused, which is a shame.

2nd cent: Don't actually have a 2nd cent, so I'll be 1 cent short.

EDIT: Atually here's my 2nd cent "Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by [15/30/50]%." Why would anyone go with this? If the arti is wearing the Platemail of Strahd this means an increment of 20 to the AC. The tree also has Armor Mastery that offers +3 and +3 to dex bonus. So with this, the melee arti can achieve the grand total of what? around 100 ac at end game? If wasting slots it would be possibly bumped to 120. That amount of AC is to little to be of any use at endgame, so I see no one actually spending points on this. Give instead more Dodge+dodge cap and I can see it with interest even for tank splash.

Feagor
03-20-2018, 03:28 PM
Regeneration Construct: You are surrounded by arcane energy capable of repairing damage. Allies (equal to your Artificer level) are Repaired for 1 hit point per 3 Artificer levels as long as they are near you. This construct (and its effects) last indefinitely until dispelled by relogging, Death, or Antimagic. 30sp Activation.



I'm guessing repair spell power will boost the effect but which meta will it be able to receive?

CeltEireson
03-20-2018, 03:53 PM
EDIT: Atually here's my 2nd cent "Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by [15/30/50]%." Why would anyone go with this? If the arti is wearing the Platemail of Strahd this means an increment of 20 to the AC. The tree also has Armor Mastery that offers +3 and +3 to dex bonus. So with this, the melee arti can achieve the grand total of what? around 100 ac at end game? If wasting slots it would be possibly bumped to 120. That amount of AC is to little to be of any use at endgame, so I see no one actually spending points on this. Give instead more Dodge+dodge cap and I can see it with interest even for tank splash.

Its more like 130-140 AC as a pure arty at end, not including epic past live feats, if you really tried you could probably get it close to 200 but like you said maybe gimping yourself in the process, maybe not.

Also doesn't include any set bonuses from armour, nor does it include any sentient jewel bonuses / set bonuses.

A multiclass with defender etc likely get a lot higher depending on whether reinforced armour from it stacks. Multiclass could also probably get max dex bonus a good bit higher.

Lokeal_The_Flame
03-20-2018, 05:25 PM
Melee damage capabilities about 15% to 25% too low, adding some melee power to the tree would help remedy this.

Defensive capabilities about 20% too much for a ranged artificer

Defensive capabilities about 10% too much for a melee artificer

Add construct vampirism (Melee only) to one of the core enhancements, have it start as 1d2 every other hit and increase to 1d6 every hit starting at level 20 but do not allow it to stack with Scion Of Shadowfell feat. Have it scale with repair amplification or healing amplification depending on which is higher. This would tone down the necessity of repair spells somewhat and appropriately increase melee viability.

Retired_Old_Gamer
03-20-2018, 05:40 PM
Please remove the no-save for T3 Battlefist* "knock down".



As much as I applaud the streamlining of the tree, I also feel a power creep is coming. FotM?

Arti/warlocks can now run R10 everywhere. That's going to be the headline after this* goes live.

You have a plan, I see that, but there are quite a few in-game that dont read these boards. And when power creep goes live, and other classes don't get their bump, they leave without a word. We lost 3 LONG time players in the last month. Mainly due to locks being OP, and glitches in MoR. Just saying, not my words, but this is a common sentiment in-game.

Tread lightly grasshopper, and bend like a reed in the wind.

Steelstar
03-20-2018, 05:48 PM
Please remove the no-save for T3 Battlefist* "knock down".



As much as I applaud the streamlining of the tree, I also feel a power creep is coming. FotM?

Arti/warlocks can now run R10 everywhere. That's going to be the headline after this* goes live.

You have a plan, I see that, but there are quite a few in-game that dont read these boards. And when power creep goes live, and other classes don't get their bump, they leave without a word. We lost 3 LONG time players in the last month. Mainly due to locks being OP, and glitches in MoR. Just saying, not my words, but this is a common sentiment in-game.

Tread lightly grasshopper, and bend like a reed in the wind.

Bear in mind that while Battlefist has a no-save knockdown, to get it you need the following:

You need to be holding a one-handed Melee Weapon and a Rune Arm.
You need to hit a creature in melee range with an attack roll using Mighty Slam.
That creature needs to fail a Fortitude check against an already-shown-in-this-thread-to-be-below-other-abilities DC (10+INT mod+Sunder)
You then need to hit the creature with an attack roll with Battlefist within 6 seconds of landing the Mighty Slam hit.
The creature can't be immune to Stun (unlike Vanguard, this follows Stunning rules)
The creature can't be immune to Knockdown.


We'll have an eye on it on Lamannia for balance, but given the factors necessary to line this one up, we're willing to at least give it a test run.

CeltEireson
03-20-2018, 05:51 PM
Please remove the no-save for T3 Battlefist* "knock down".


They do get a chance to save albeit in the initial Mighty Slam - the knock down only works if they fail the save on the initial Mighty Slam attack, and obviously both attacks have to connect which in high difficulty epics isn't automatic.

Edit: Bah beaten to it by Steelstar ;)

Retired_Old_Gamer
03-20-2018, 05:54 PM
Bear in mind that while Battlefist has a no-save knockdown, to get it you need the following:

You need to be holding a one-handed Melee Weapon and a Rune Arm.
You need to hit a creature in melee range with an attack roll using Mighty Slam.
That creature needs to fail a Fortitude check against an already-shown-in-this-thread-to-be-below-other-abilities DC (10+INT mod+Sunder)
You then need to hit the creature with an attack roll with Battlefist within 6 seconds of landing the Mighty Slam hit.
The creature can't be immune to Stun (unlike Vanguard, this follows Stunning rules)
The creature can't be immune to Knockdown.


We'll have an eye on it on Lamannia for balance, but given the factors necessary to line this one up, we're willing to at least give it a test run.

OK, I'll play, what about cowering? Will this have the same effect? I'm really trying to get behind this one, as I really like the whole knock-down/ cowering/stun scenario.
If a melee arti can pull this off, there needs to be some restrictions like you have already. The 6 second timer might be a tad too long imo.

Requiro
03-20-2018, 06:01 PM
Yes, cumulative.
The Tier 5 version is single-target (you or allies). The Guard version in Tier 5 is passive and self-only.

You're already getting a bit of Repair Spell Power out of the first Core. We may try to fit some Repair Spell Crit in somewhere. [Thanks!]

It is, more or less. You cast it, and every 10 seconds it refreshes a 10-second buff on nearby allies. This keeps happening until you die or encounter antimagic.

Thanks for information and clarification.



Tentatively: 15 seconds and 15 seconds.
Should be roughly equivalent to the usefulness of Stunning Blow in Epics, depending on your build.

This is what I afraid of. Stunning Blow is semi useful in EPIC and it use STR modifier, not INT.
While 15 CD is fine (I was hoping for 12 CD), on epic levels, Mighty Slam, will be extremely hard to land for not power gamers.
Maybe consider some improvement for Lammania testing.
Some suggestions was made by others - I can offer one more: DC: 10 + INT modifier + Sunder Modifiers + Epic Levels

ALSO

You might think change Battlefist CD to 6 sec, because without Mighty Slam it's only +3[w] to melee attack.
And will be cool to watch that new cool animation more frequently ;)


It's short, but it's one of the only ways of casting the Shield spell en masse. Which is useful when, say, you're wandering in the woods around a Windmill and way too many Wisps show up spamming Magic Missile.

So another emergency button. Well... I hope that at least it will cost only 1 AP.

Ziindarax
03-20-2018, 06:35 PM
A 20 Arti using it is getting 20d3 Sonic + 20d3 Force, multiplied by Melee Power, multiplied by Helpless bonuses (this will only ever land if the target is under the effect of Mighty Slam's stun!). Going to keep an eye on it where it is for now.

So does this mean that the helpless bonus won't apply to this ability if the enemy mob is stunned by another effect (such as Stunning blow), or immobilized / paralyzed by something like the Freezing Cleave of Bard (Seeing as Swashbuckler has some synergies with Artificer)?

slarden
03-20-2018, 06:37 PM
Sunder. It lines up with what we did over in Battle Engineer.

I question whether the DC in battle engineer is working properly. It seems my actual DC is less than what it should be based on the description, but there is no way to verify it.

SerPounce
03-20-2018, 06:50 PM
OK, I'll play, what about cowering? Will this have the same effect? I'm really trying to get behind this one, as I really like the whole knock-down/ cowering/stun scenario.
If a melee arti can pull this off, there needs to be some restrictions like you have already. The 6 second timer might be a tad too long imo.

The description says the monster has to be under the effects of mighty fist's stun specifically. So I assume no other ability will count.

There's no way to knock them over without them getting a save first.

SerPounce
03-20-2018, 06:52 PM
I question whether the DC in battle engineer is working properly. It seems my actual DC is less than what it should be based on the description, but there is no way to verify it.

I you talking about thunder-shock weapons? I brought this up in one of the other threads. Steelstar said he verified that the DC is working correctly, it's just that many mobs have absurdly high STR checks far beyond any proper saves. So I guess it's deemed WAI even though it doesn't actually work.

thunir
03-20-2018, 06:54 PM
Mighty Slam

Mighty Slam: Single Target Melee Attack: +1/2/3[w]. You may stun the target for 6 seconds. Stunned creatures are considered helpless. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. (DC: 10 + INT modifier + Sunder Modifiers). Requires an equipped Rune Arm to use.

A lot of feed back here but why dont you set the DC with a precedent you have already set:

The Frozen Fury: Make a melee attack with +(1/2/3)[W] damage. Affected enemies must make a Fortitude save (10 + Charisma modifier + 0/one-quarter/one-half Bard Level + Stunning modifiers) or become frozen solid for number of seconds equal to half of your Bard levels. Cooldown: (12/9/6) seconds. Cost: 1 sp. Bosses cannot be frozen.

It makes sense to me to avoid balancing issues.

Retired_Old_Gamer
03-20-2018, 07:29 PM
The description says the monster has to be under the effects of mighty fist's stun specifically. So I assume no other ability will count.

There's no way to knock them over without them getting a save first.


Aye, as long as this isn't a big easy button, Im ok with it.

edrein
03-20-2018, 07:37 PM
Add construct vampirism (Melee only) to one of the core enhancements, have it start as 1d2 every other hit and increase to 1d6 every hit starting at level 20 but do not allow it to stack with Scion Of Shadowfell feat. Have it scale with repair amplification or healing amplification depending on which is higher. This would tone down the necessity of repair spells somewhat and appropriately increase melee viability.

You keep making this suggestion yet don't seem to remotely understand the inherent issues with vampirism scaling. The reason why Blood Strength was so popular was due to the fact it actually scaled properly: IE, you weren't getting heal procs for 10 or less from ridiculous amounts of heal amp. Your suggestion sounds good on normal and ok on elite in heroics, once you get to epics and reaper it completely falls apart and becomes a waste of space.

This is why currently any form of vampire build is dead until an official Wizard pass comes along or they get an unofficial scaling vampirism upgrade.

edrein
03-20-2018, 07:40 PM
Bear in mind that while Battlefist has a no-save knockdown, to get it you need the following:

You need to be holding a one-handed Melee Weapon and a Rune Arm.
You need to hit a creature in melee range with an attack roll using Mighty Slam.
That creature needs to fail a Fortitude check against an already-shown-in-this-thread-to-be-below-other-abilities DC (10+INT mod+Sunder)
You then need to hit the creature with an attack roll with Battlefist within 6 seconds of landing the Mighty Slam hit.
The creature can't be immune to Stun (unlike Vanguard, this follows Stunning rules)
The creature can't be immune to Knockdown.


We'll have an eye on it on Lamannia for balance, but given the factors necessary to line this one up, we're willing to at least give it a test run.

Ouch... You realize this is sort of hurting your proposal; not in the sense of balance. More in the sense that this is going to be completely useless against rednames and raid bosses. AKA: The place where I'm going to most want the damage from Battlefist.

I'd like to suggest that Mighty Slam applies a debuff if the target is otherwise immune to stunning such as bosses. This way you can atleast use Battlefist for the damage portion against them.

edrein
03-21-2018, 12:06 AM
I'm still of the mind that this tree could use a swashbuckler crossover point. Perhaps tucking it into the T4 or T5 body parts. You can swashbuckler while wearing medium (not heavy) armor albeit no evasion. After all in tabletop Swashbuckling is more about your dazzling speed. Between armor of speed and other self-imbuements I think it's fair to see an artificer could be quick enough with their favorite weapon.

Xgya
03-21-2018, 02:14 AM
Ouch... You realize this is sort of hurting your proposal; not in the sense of balance. More in the sense that this is going to be completely useless against rednames and raid bosses. AKA: The place where I'm going to most want the damage from Battlefist.

This. Absolutely this.

Could you at least make the extra damage not depend on the target being stunned?
Or possibly have Battlefist apply two debuffs?

Potential rework:

Mighty Slam: Single Target Melee Attack: +1/2/3[w]. You may stun the target for 6 seconds. Stunned creatures are considered helpless. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. (DC: 10 + INT modifier + Sunder Modifiers). This also applies a "Slammed" debuff to the target for 6 seconds. Requires an equipped Rune Arm to use.

Battlefist: You empower your Rune Arm to devastate a target with a powerful strike. Single Target Melee Attack: +3[w], if the target is under the effect of Mighty Slam's Stun, it is knocked down for 10 seconds with no save. If it's currently Slammed, this attack deals 1d3 Force and Sonic damage per Artificer level. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power. Requires an equipped Rune Arm to use. (This is also getting a cool new animation.)

Alternatively
Battlefist: You empower your Rune Arm to devastate a target with a powerful strike. Single Target Melee Attack: +3[w], if the target is currently Slammed, this attack deals 1d3 Sonic damage per Artificer level. If it's under the effect of Mighty Slam's Stun, it is knocked down for 10 seconds with no save and the attack deals another 1d3 Force damage per Artificer level. This attack's damage scales with 100% Melee Power. Requires an equipped Rune Arm to use. (This is also getting a cool new animation.)

TheGuyYouKnow
03-21-2018, 02:26 AM
Thanks for the updated tree changes Steelstar I look forward to trying out this tree on a new life, I just want to give my opinion on a few of the weaker points of the tree with changes I'd like to see and will try to keep in mind this was originally meant as a tree to help artificers survive a little better.

Cores:
Core 3: Curative Admixture: CSW SLA.
Core 5: Radiant Forcefield SLA.
Core 5 requires level 18, this is horrible and needs to be either a very strong ability or have passives(aside from core 1) along with this mediocre ability, I suggest having something to do with melee or runearm in these at core 3 and 5 as all bonuses to them are absent from cores.

Tier1:
Curative Admixture: CLW SLA.
Skills: Repair/Heal/Balance
The other options at tier 1 are useful so these 2 would never be picked up, skills in t1 are a given at this point but id like to see a little bonus such as reduced skill penalty from heavy armor.

Tier2:
Kinetic Discharge
Mighty Slam
Having another cleave is pretty nice but the small force damage is negligible, it wont scale in heroics and wont be noticeable in epics, perhaps -save on hit to help us land these sunders or dispel on hit.
mighty slam needs base 15 dc or add artificer level to dc, I don't see this landing.

Tier3:
Battlefist
Shielding Construct
Battlefist simplified is 1d6 damage per artificer level to 1 target IF you have already landed your stun and it has a cooldown(i assume 15 seconds, same with the stun), its just weak and needs to scale with spell power to be any good and also wont work on red named or bosses at all.
shielding construct I don't understand why anyone would take this, you are already immune to magic missiles at level 3 and shield wands last longer for everyone else, this need to have pr or temp life buff added.

Tier4:
Warding Construct
Paladin SD has something similar to this as a permanent aura in t3, its just flat out better.
having this (and the other constructs) be similar to the bards musical aura permanently on lasting for 1min, refreshed every 20 seconds WITH added mr would make this a good ability

Tier5:
Curative Admixture: Cure Critical Wounds SLA
Regeneration Construct
Mastermaker
You can only heal so much. I get this is a healer and defender tree so I understand why you would want to mirror the radiant servant tree but Warforged are quite rare to see and you could have given the regeneration construct repair 10 health per artificer level every second and it still wouldn't be broken because you just don't see enough Warforged for it to be worth it, and the ones you do see are either completely self sufficient or build to be healed by positive energy.
Also a buff or ability for runearm in t5 would be nice to see over one of these.

Overview: I like how there are parts of offense defense and caster in a single artificer tree as that's how they were originally introduced as hybrids but the abilities given don't feel thought out.
damage that is present is weak or doesn't scale well and should scale with spell power
none of the constructs provide enough defense or unique ability
too much healing, not enough prevention

Construct suggestion: have them be anti magic themed and provide persistent buff aura like bards.
shielding construct provides 3/6/10 mr and 3 temp hp per artificer level every 30 seconds for 60 seconds
warding construct provides 3/4/5 to saves verses magic effects and 1 spell absorption every 30 seconds for 60 seconds
regeneration construct provides 1 repair per 3 artificer levels every second and enemies that come within range are dispelled and have a 20% chance to be stunned for 2 seconds.

MasterKernel
03-21-2018, 03:54 AM
What is the point of -ASF within the "Paragon Body" ?
Arcane Spell Failure does not affect artificers' spells. Is that going to change ?
Or is this for the multiclassing purposes ? Then Tier 5 is a little too deep in the tree.

edrein
03-21-2018, 04:19 AM
Please remove the no-save for T3 Battlefist* "knock down".



As much as I applaud the streamlining of the tree, I also feel a power creep is coming. FotM?

Arti/warlocks can now run R10 everywhere. That's going to be the headline after this* goes live.

You have a plan, I see that, but there are quite a few in-game that dont read these boards. And when power creep goes live, and other classes don't get their bump, they leave without a word. We lost 3 LONG time players in the last month. Mainly due to locks being OP, and glitches in MoR. Just saying, not my words, but this is a common sentiment in-game.

Tread lightly grasshopper, and bend like a reed in the wind.


Aye, as long as this isn't a big easy button, Im ok with it.

Could we please not drag warlocks into this? First of all we're discussing a melee ability not an auralock or a blasterlock.

Secondly, there are already restrictions that Steelstar has already reiterated twice now. Those restrictions are very stringent and currently prevent the damage portion of the ability from effecting stun/knockdown immune mobs (IE: Bosses) which is an issue in itself.

Thirdly. Let's stop with the warlock hate. It's 2018, get over it. If anyone has truly quit the game over warlocks then good riddance. This is coming from a triple completionist who managed 90% of their lives before the first 'easy button' of Otto's Boxes came along. Warlocks aren't a problem nor are they truly 'power creep'. What they encompass is a change in design philosophy and a shift from outdated systems. Warlocks gave everyone what they had asked for since MotU/Shadowfell, for casters to be relevant again besides the odd Shiradi builds and your traditional rarity of a DC caster. Warlocks did that and universally ingame warlocks are praised for their ease of access, power scaling, and overall playstyle. The place where the 'complaints' about warlocks exist the most is here on the forums where overly loud complaints outweigh the compliments and a minority of actual playerbase has a platform to speak. I assure you if there were ingame polls; warlocks would be declared as fine, not needing of nerfs, etc. Ask here on the forums and it's a constant outcry for nerf warlocks.

Like I said; it's 2018, let's leave the warlock debate at the door and focus on other classes and more importantly bringing them into the modern era of DDO. Avoiding power creep is fine, but let's do it without the need to pull the warlock strawman and derail thread after thread with warlock hate.

Niminae
03-21-2018, 04:56 AM
Hey, folks. Thanks for all of the feedback in Round 1 of Lamannia. There was a lot of varied feedback, but a few specifics appeared frequently:

Too many SLAs



Who complained about too many SLAs? Lemme at 'em, lemme at 'em!

Chacka_DDO
03-21-2018, 05:35 AM
There was a time we'd tried to prototype giving that to Half Elf Arti Dilettantes and Gnomes; however, the Rune Arm System has a few things baked in that hard-scale with Arti levels. So you'd fire your Rune Arm for 1d6x(Actual Arti Level)... or effectively zero damage.

Might be able to put together a more open system someday that would allow for that, but probably not in the near future.

I would suggest a pardigm shift to a system where all abilities are in principle based on the character level.
I think you have to see each multiclass build as a very unique "new class".
There is no reason in my opinion why e.g. the fireball spell should not scale with the character level for a character with 5 wizard and 15 fighter level in the same way as for a pure wizard.
And also for the pure wizard, I see no reason why his power should suddenly stop to increase at a certain character level because there spells suddenly hard cap with no reason.
I think this would make a lot of things easier and for me, it is also more logical.
Then no new system would be needed but I'm looking forward to seeing better ideas for a new "more open system" from the developers.

edrein
03-21-2018, 06:21 AM
I would suggest a pardigm shift to a system where all abilities are in principle based on the character level.
I think you have to see each multiclass build as a very unique "new class".
There is no reason in my opinion why e.g. the fireball spell should not scale with the character level for a character with 5 wizard and 15 fighter level in the same way as for a pure wizard.
And also for the pure wizard, I see no reason why his power should suddenly stop to increase at a certain character level because there spells suddenly hard cap with no reason.
I think this would make a lot of things easier and for me, it is also more logical.
Then no new system would be needed but I'm looking forward to seeing better ideas for a new "more open system" from the developers.

Before anyone can reply and tear you apart for this; I'm trying to make sure we see this eye to eye because I could see a healthy change through this system.

Your suggestion is; to create a vertical power system rather than strictly linear. The fireball in all intents and purposes will be the same whether you have five levels of wizard or ten, correct? This can work if additional power comes from the enhancements. IE: While a spellsword might be able to cast the same fireball as a Fire Savant, the Fire Savant's expertise and nature is going to reflect in a much more 'potent' or specialized spell.

Let's simplify the situation by giving a mock break down. The base fireball as is does 1d3+3 points of fire damage per caster level up to a maximum damage of 10d3+30 at caster level 10 to all targets around it. Our new example break down would be as such:
The wizard splash in the example will get full scaling of damage effects, while possibly not benefiting from the same amount of DCs such as heighten, enhancement boosts, etc. So let's say they have full caster scaling based on character level. The fireball now deals 1d3+3 per caster level or 30d3+90 fire damage at level 30 cap.
The Fire Savant on the other hand is going to get the same full scaling, plus elemental form, plus enhancements, etc. So we argue the fireball deals the same 1d3+3 per chaster level or 37d3+111 fire damage at cap, due to the +7 caster levels from the savant cores and elemental form.

If this is what you meant? Then good. It's a nice change. It makes DPS casters a much more plausible and scaling system into both epics and reaper. It's not directly power creep but rather an evaluation and evolution of the current system to be better streamlined. In this example you've given a sizable boost representing the investment of feats, gear, etc. The only thing this system lacks is a place for Heighten beyond just DCs. As now we have to argue whether or not heighten should add additional caster levels to the argument. If so the power of the pure caster increases further, which is good. It both promotes multiclassing for utility and design, while ensuring pure characters have a solid place in the meta.

This system also makes the appeal of the Master of Feats greater while also making their place very simple to understand. No confusion or accidental noob traps on certain builds. The +10 maximum caster level needs only be swapped to +10 caster level. In turn the non-savant example now scales to be 40d3+120 fire damage on the fireball.

On the topic of spell DCs this also improves the overall accessibility and entry-point for casting if player level is used. Where-as we currently have spells with completely non-functional DC scaling, they will better scale across the board rather than taking a massive amount of legwork to update each individual spell. A hybrid build will get better DCs than currently available, but they won't be god tier. This will effectively reduce DC bloat in epics, legendary, and reaper to a degree and will allow finer tuning of mob saves in future content. On the flip side; the pure builds will obviously have better DCs, more gear freedom, and we might actually have a caster renaissance once more as the freedom to actually deal damage as well as focus on certain DC's such as instakills or crowd control is alleviated just a smidge.

TheGuyYouKnow
03-21-2018, 08:15 AM
What is the point of -ASF within the "Paragon Body" ?
Arcane Spell Failure does not affect artificers' spells. Is that going to change ?
Or is this for the multiclassing purposes ? Then Tier 5 is a little too deep in the tree.
for arcane scroll and wand use i would imagine

Retired_Old_Gamer
03-21-2018, 09:14 AM
3 of my semi-defunct PnP group and I were discussing this tree last night.

We came to the same conclusion about Battlefist & a few other nuances. This is all about a stun ability originating from a rune arm.

IF an arti can channel that type of energy in the rune arm, he MUST have to make a balance check, can't be moving,

As far as friendlies in the line of fire, that's an issue. rune arms don't have the *arcane ability* (love that quip) to differentiate between foe & friend when using anything that produces a force or sonic effect that is used to produce a knock-down effect.

We (I) propose that anyone in the Line of Fire must make some kind of save or be affected somehow. And if the Arti fails his balance check, then everyone makes a saving throw or be affected.

edrein
03-21-2018, 09:22 AM
3 of my semi-defunct PnP group and I were discussing this tree last night.

We came to the same conclusion about Battlefist & a few other nuances. This is all about a stun ability originating from a rune arm.

IF an arti can channel that type of energy in the rune arm, he MUST have to make a balance check, can't be moving,

As far as friendlies in the line of fire, that's an issue. rune arms don't have the *arcane ability* (love that quip) to differentiate between foe & friend when using anything that produces a force or sonic effect that is used to produce a knock-down effect.

We (I) propose that anyone in the Line of Fire must make some kind of save or be affected somehow. And if the Arti fails his balance check, then everyone makes a saving throw or be affected.

I don't see either of those flying.

It's bad enough as is that the Battle Engineer attacks tend to momentarily remove momentum/freeze you in place, but if it was a part of this it'd be even worse. No one wants to use attacks that stop you from moving even if momentarily, 9/10 that's a good recipe for dying in melee combat on higher difficulties.

On the other end, we know how well any form of 'friendly fire' abilities work. People will gripe and complain to no end, trolls will obviously troll with it, etc. Reminds me of being able to kill PMs back in the day and a certain Disjunction spell currently.

Retired_Old_Gamer
03-21-2018, 09:44 AM
On the other end, we know how well any form of 'friendly fire' abilities work. People will gripe and complain to no end, trolls will obviously troll with it, etc. Reminds me of being able to kill PMs back in the day and a certain Disjunction spell currently.

I do agree that the "friendly fire" issue is an "issue" BUT.............. the premise of that big of a stun emanating from a rune arm HAS to have an affect on the user.

edrein
03-21-2018, 09:48 AM
I do agree that the "friendly fire" issue is an "issue" BUT.............. the premise of that big of a stun emanating from a rune arm HAS to have an affect on the user.

That big of a stun? You mean a single target effect that firstly stuns a target (Mighty Slam) and has a secondary blowback (Battlefist). It's practically the same as Tactical Detonation, not seeing why you think it should operate differently.

zehnvhex
03-21-2018, 11:54 AM
Before anyone can reply and tear you apart for this;

A very common request on the forums is to add spell BAB to work similar to melee BAB. So you'd have divine and arcane BAB.

For example:

Fighter: .5 arcane and .5 divine BAB per level
Wizard: 1 arcane and .5 divine BAB per level
Paladin: .5 arcane and .75 divine BAB per level
Bard: .75 arcane and .75 divine BAB per level

etc...

So a 5 wizard/15 fighter would cast arcane spells at (5 + (15*.5)) = 12.5 (12 rounded down) caster level. Not as good as a pure wizard, but still significantly better than the current situation. A 10 wizard/10 cleric would cast at 15 wizard and 15 cleric instead of 10/10.

edrein
03-21-2018, 12:00 PM
A very common request on the forums is to add spell BAB to work similar to melee BAB. So you'd have divine and arcane BAB.

For example:

Fighter: .5 arcane and .5 divine BAB per level
Wizard: 1 arcane and .5 divine BAB per level
Paladin: .5 arcane and .75 divine BAB per level
Bard: .75 arcane and .75 divine BAB per level

etc...

So a 5 wizard/15 fighter would cast arcane spells at (5 + (15*.5)) = 12.5 (12 rounded down) caster level. Not as good as a pure wizard, but still significantly better than the current situation. A 10 wizard/10 cleric would cast at 15 wizard and 15 cleric instead of 10/10.

While that's reasonable and to an extent helps thematic splash builds like Eldritch Knight (AKA: The only actual multiclass PrE in DDO), I feel like the breakdown I gave based on the original post would be a bit better. As long as the pure build holds the best advantage for DC and rider effects (+caster level, +damage, etc.) and enhancements properly enhance spells, I think we'd be fine scaling purely on character level.

Character level based scaling is most efficient on Buffs, followed by equipment such as Runearms or Wands, then actual spells. Which in turn creates a model that also supports the way DDO has gone down, AKA: We support multiclass above pure class. However, certain caster paths remain more viable as pures. IE: The example with the fireball cast by the Fire Savant vs the gish build.

zehnvhex
03-21-2018, 12:24 PM
I'd also like to take the time to again point out that raising the max caster level on admixtures, Mastermaker and Conjure Components don't actually do anything.

I repeat.

Max Caster Level on admixtures doesn't really do anything. They scale at a rate of +1 hp per CL. That is it. So for most of your heroic career where you're rocking even as a devoted healer anywhere from 200~500 (+meta's) you're looking at anywhere from 4~10 extra hp per cast per level once you go over the innate caster level.

That's -garbage-.

Same deal with Mastermaker even more insulting since 99% of the time your repair spells are going to be self only and it doesn't affect the reconstruct sla.

Lastly you have Conjure Components. Honestly if I have to explain why this is bad and shouldn't exist I just...ugh. I mean flat out -ugh-.

lain5246
03-21-2018, 12:52 PM
There was a time we'd tried to prototype giving that to Half Elf Arti Dilettantes and Gnomes; however, the Rune Arm System has a few things baked in that hard-scale with Arti levels. So you'd fire your Rune Arm for 1d6x(Actual Arti Level)... or effectively zero damage.

Might be able to put together a more open system someday that would allow for that, but probably not in the near future.

I would love to see that happen. also you need to make a close combat rune arm that as it charges it gives prr and mrr like shields acording to charge tier, and when discharged creates a cone that stuns or knocks down enemies, also iit needs to be epic and heroic...

zehnvhex
03-21-2018, 12:57 PM
While that's reasonable

We already have a precedence for basing scaling on character level (A lot of ED abilities go off of character level). I think you'd have a hard time getting the 'Sky is Falling' anti-powercreep people on board with extending that to -all- spells/abilities however.

Casting BAB seems to be a healthy middle ground that has no major opponents other then SSG who would actually have to program such a thing. It's not the best thing in the world but it's better than what we currently have.

edrein
03-21-2018, 01:13 PM
We already have a precedence for basing scaling on character level (A lot of ED abilities go off of character level). I think you'd have a hard time getting the 'Sky is Falling' anti-powercreep people on board with extending that to -all- spells/abilities however.

Casting BAB seems to be a healthy middle ground that has no major opponents other then SSG who would actually have to program such a thing. It's not the best thing in the world but it's better than what we currently have.

I think to an extent the game is at a point where those people need to learn to adapt or leave. They've been complaining about warlocks and powercreep for going on two years now. It isn't helping anyone or in anyway, all it's doing is creating an echo chamber here on the forums of a vocal minority (compared to the entire playerbase) in which SSG hears their feedback and things such as the repeated unnecessary Enlightened Spirit nerfs occur all while the echo chamber continues to clamor for more nerfs.

If the entirety of DDO's spell progression was changed to use character levels it would be the best move for the health of the game as a whole. Yes, it'll ruffle feathers like every other change and more importantly every change post MotU. But I'd say it's something that the majority of the people playing the game would appreciate despite what a few prolific and loud posters will complain about.

Retired_Old_Gamer
03-21-2018, 01:26 PM
I think to an extent the game is at a point where those people need to learn to adapt or leave. They've been complaining about warlocks and powercreep for going on two years now. It isn't helping anyone or in anyway, all it's doing is creating an echo chamber here on the forums of a vocal minority (compared to the entire playerbase) in which SSG hears their feedback and things such as the repeated unnecessary Enlightened Spirit nerfs occur all while the echo chamber continues to clamor for more nerfs.

If the entirety of DDO's spell progression was changed to use character levels it would be the best move for the health of the game as a whole. Yes, it'll ruffle feathers like every other change and more importantly every change post MotU. But I'd say it's something that the majority of the people playing the game would appreciate despite what a few prolific and loud posters will complain about.


Agreed, and I'd be behind dramatic changes if it makes the game better. But the "try this and see if it sticks" approach has been the norm until SSG and Daybreak took over. So it's an uphill battle no matter what.

a 3rd tree for arti is a tough call, I have my own opinions, but this isn't PnP :rolleyes:

edrein
03-21-2018, 01:39 PM
Agreed, and I'd be behind dramatic changes if it makes the game better. But the "try this and see if it sticks" approach has been the norm until SSG and Daybreak took over. So it's an uphill battle no matter what.

a 3rd tree for arti is a tough call, I have my own opinions, but this isn't PnP :rolleyes:

I admit I'm not a big arti person, both ingame and tabletop wise. To be honest my favorites in tabletop have always been the 'odd man out' choices when in a party. Blackguard, melee warlock (one day I will coerce Steelstar into actually giving me Hideous Blow...), and druid.

But I've paid attention to the threads so far and while I might not fully agree with zehn's posts due to a lack of balancing numbers wise, I feel they've managed to get a more tabletop feeling Renegade Mastermaker feel down with their suggested version of the tree compared to what we have. And so far those suggestions have helped shape this V3 document. That's a good thing, glad to see that feedback is actually taking hold for once. I hope that druids will get a bit more love due to player feedback as they need it as well.

At this point I assume we're closed to 'content lock' on Renegade Mastermaker, so now it's important to give feedback on what's here. Where it could change and adjust (such as making sure the Mighty Slam debuff adds a non-stun based before for procing the damage off Battlefist for boss beat downs). Things like that.

Retired_Old_Gamer
03-21-2018, 01:55 PM
I feel they've managed to get a more tabletop feeling Renegade Mastermaker feel down with their suggested version of the tree compared to what we have. making sure the Mighty Slam debuff adds a non-stun based before for procing the damage off Battlefist for boss beat downs). Things like that.


I really like the way they are going with this, a few things for MS though.

Monsters will still have additional saving throws before Battlefist is used?

Will any movement by caster affect this while pulling off the maneuver?

Can there be incidental discharges of rune arm in case of failed attacks? ("a fumble is still a fumble" E. Gary Gygax)

I have lots of questions, about this tree, and wont be installing Lamma-Land on this pc, so I'll be fishing for info.

There are so many build options that come from this tree, and it should be a balancing act with all the other stun abilities out there currently. It could go OP real fast, then get nerfed. And that isn't good for anyone on 2018

Niminae
03-21-2018, 02:21 PM
[Why the ASF removal in Tier 5 Paragon Body?] for arcane scroll and wand use i would imagine

Exactly. The devs actually spelled this out in the Core 3 Battle Engineer tree:

Additionally, your equipped armor or docent grants you +5 PRR and -10% ASF. (Artificer Infusions are not affected by ASF, but this assists with scroll use.)

It also helps with any arcane multis.



I do agree that the "friendly fire" issue is an "issue" BUT.............. the premise of that big of a stun emanating from a rune arm HAS to have an affect on the user.

Yeah, stop trying to apply logic to a setting where dragons, wizards, and an entire pantheon of actual deities exist and grant divine spells to their followers. This is a game of imagination, and you can justify almost anything at all, restrictive or beneficial, based on your particular position. Hey, I think that the premise of that big of a stun emanating from a rune arm HAS to last for 5 minutes and have no saving throw. See how that works?

This game decided long ago that the Fighter standing in the Fireball his Wizard 'friend' cast on the orc he is toe to toe with doesn't get roasted. This is a complete contradiction of how P&P works, but it prevents players from being able to PVP except in the designated PvP areas. Your idea is a non-starter.

Niminae
03-21-2018, 02:46 PM
Sunder. It lines up with what we did over in Battle Engineer.

Could you please lay out exactly how the three Artificer enhancements which incorporate Sunder into an attack actually work? As in how the DC is calculated?

Here are the three enhancements in question:
BE Tier 3
Shatter Defense (Crossbow): Tactical Ranged Crossbow Attack: +0.5/1/1.5[W]: On Hit: Reduces the target's Armor Class by 5 and lowers fortication by 10%. A sccessful Fortitude save negates this effect. (DC 10 + INT mod + Sunder Bonuses). Regardless of saving throw result tartget will suffer the Traum effect, -3 penalty to frotitude saves due to shock, stacks 5 times. Lasts 24 seconds. This ability shares a cooldown with Sunder.

BE Tier 5
Thunder-Shock Weapon (Crossbow):Tactical Ranged Crossbow Attack +1.5[W]: On Damage: Deals 6d6 extra Electric damage that scales with 200% Ranged Power, and Trips tha target. A successful Strength save negates the Trip effect. (DC 14 + INT mod + Sunder Bonuses). 12 seconds cooldown, shares a cooldown with Trip.

Renegade Mastermaker Tier 2
Mighty Slam: Single Target Melee Attack: +1/2/3[w]. You may stun the target for 6 seconds. Stunned creatures are considered helpless. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. (DC: 10 + INT modifier + Sunder Modifiers). Requires an equipped Rune Arm to use.

So we have a DC calculation of:
(DC [10 or 14] + INT mod + Sunder [Bonuses or Modifiers, which are presumably the same thing])

Sunder:

A sunder attempt is a melee special attack that, when successful, results in a -4 AC penalty to the target for 12 seconds if it fails a DC (10 + Str mod) Fortitude save. Some creatures may be immune to the sunder effect.
The bonus/modifier for Sunder is your Strength modifier. So we have:
(DC [10 or 14] + INT mod + (Sunder modifier = STR mod) + (Sunder specific bonuses*))

* Which would be Combat Mastery, the Field Scrapper enhancement, Fighter Tactical Feats, and what else?

How does Improved Sunder interact?

Using this melee special attack, you may reduce the target's Armor Class by 5 and fortification by 10% on a failed saving throw for 24 seconds. Some creatures may be immune to the sunder effect. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. Additionally, Improved Sunder will apply a -3 Fortitude Saving Throw penalty that lasts for 24 seconds on a successful hit (regardless of if they save). The saving throw penalty stacks up to five times (Maximum of -15 to Fortitude save). DC 14 + Str mod.
Since the bonus/modifier for Improved Sunder is STR just as is the bonus/modifier for Sunder, there appears to be zero benefit from taking this feat (and the Power Attack prerequisite). Unless the 4 higher DC of Improved Sunder applies somehow, but that isn't born out in the DC calculation given for the three Artificer enhancements in question.

The only thing to me which appears to be a straightforward bonus application is Field Scrapper, the line of Tactical [X] Fighter only Feats, and Combat Mastery and Insightful Combat Mastery item affects. Because those are all a simple +X. But other than that the DC calculation has a lot of areas where it is confusing.

Any help in untangling this mess would be greatly appreciated.

Niminae
03-21-2018, 03:08 PM
From a practicality standpoint if you're coordinated enough to all be standing together to get use out of mass shield, you're coordinated enough to all be carrying shield wands and/or have it otherwise available to you. Why not make it mass jump? Mass detect secret doors?

That's about how useful this is.

For the situation given, wandering around Bonegrinder and far too many Wisps show up, groups I've been in have tended to gather on the bridge, so the AOE would get them all. But I agree that the duration is too low. Even a scroll or a wand gives you a 5 minute duration. Something you spend AP on that mirrors this minor effect should at least last that long.

zehnvhex
03-21-2018, 03:41 PM
For the situation given, wandering around Bonegrinder and far too many Wisps show up, groups I've been in have tended to gather on the bridge, so the AOE would get them all. But I agree that the duration is too low. Even a scroll or a wand gives you a 5 minute duration. Something you spend AP on that mirrors this minor effect should at least last that long.

Mutually exclusive toggles I think would be the best option, imo. 1 minute cooldown (to prevent spam swapping), 20 sp activation cost.

Shielding = While toggled grants effects of shield spell to those in range and DR 1/- per rank of master crafter (IE: every 2 levels), doubled in epic.

Warding = Aura that grants +3 alch bonus to saves and additional +3 to save vs traps. Every minute grants targets in range a buff that grants 1 spell absorb.

Regeneration = Positive Energy Aura but repair. Also grants determination bonus temp HP equal to int bonus every 6 seconds, doubled in epic (a little worse than warlock version Brilliance aura, making this a combination of a worse version of positive energy aura and warlock brilliance aura so that it might actually be worth taking).

zehnvhex
03-21-2018, 06:05 PM
in which SSG hears their feedback and things such as the repeated unnecessary Enlightened Spirit nerfs occur all while the echo chamber continues to clamor for more nerfs.

What made it especially hilarious is Enlightened Spirit was never really the problem yet that's what they kept nerfing. Meanwhile stanch, feigned health, a full damage huge range cone attack at level 5, the hilarious broken mess that is Evards remains untouched.

Fortunately casters do such garbage tier single target damage and warlocks are no exception. Imagine if warlocks were good at that too. They might have had to nerf Shining Through again.

Anyways...

I fully agree. I honestly believe casting, DC casting in particular, needs a massive overhaul and SSG really needs to take some liberties with the 3.5 system. Keep the spell names and intentions behind the spells, but we need a mechanics update.

Sleep, for example, is a pretty fun/amazing spell in tabletop DnD. In DDO it's easily one of the worst spells in the game.

Silverleafeon
03-21-2018, 08:36 PM
First read thru ~ thoughts on the new changes.

Overall, very pleased with everything.

Like the BattleFirst addition.

Removal of repair SLAs is smart because Arty will cast Reconstruct not repairs at level 15+.

Hilltrot
03-22-2018, 12:40 AM
You're already getting a bit of Repair Spell Power out of the first Core. We may try to fit some Repair Spell Crit in somewhere.

In DDO, healing crit is just not that useful. It can be used against undead, but repair can only be used by deconstruct.

Nandos
03-22-2018, 06:16 AM
The only thing I don't really like is Core 5: Radiant Forcefield SLA. 30 Spell Points. 3 minute cooldown.

There are already several other forcefields in this tree, and this just doesn't seem to add much value as the only 18 core ability. You can easily just slot the spell at 18.

I would rather have some sort of passive bonuses like Battle Engineer core 5 or something unique like the Arcanotechnician core 5 gives.

Thanks

Steelstar
03-22-2018, 06:29 AM
The only thing I don't really like is Core 5: Radiant Forcefield SLA. 30 Spell Points. 3 minute cooldown.

There are already several other forcefields in this tree, and this just doesn't seem to add much value as the only 18 core ability. You can easily just slot the spell at 18.

I would rather have some sort of passive bonuses like Battle Engineer core 5 or something unique like the Arcanotechnician core 5 gives.

Thanks

You get an SLA on a different cooldown from the core Spell, effectively giving you 25% reduction to all damage for 1 minute out of every 3 (as opposed to 30 seconds out of every 3 minutes if you were just using the Spell version).

edrein
03-22-2018, 07:55 AM
So any chance on those druid appropriate runearm restrictions?

grausherra
03-22-2018, 10:05 AM
You get an SLA on a different cooldown from the core Spell, effectively giving you 25% reduction to all damage for 1 minute out of every 3 (as opposed to 30 seconds out of every 3 minutes if you were just using the Spell version).

I don't think there is an argument to made that it is a bad ability for a core 5, its just not particularly sexy or inspired; this is the chance for artificers to argue and hope for something more flashy and less... utilitarian.

EDIT: How about giving us a short duration clicky that increases our rune-arm charge rate dramatically? Like a endless fuselage for rune-arms? Now that would be a flashy skill and very artificer-y.

edrein
03-22-2018, 10:39 AM
I don't think there is an argument to made that it is a bad ability for a core 5, its just not particularly sexy or inspired; this is the chance for artificers to argue and hope for something more flashy and less... utilitarian.

EDIT: How about giving us a short duration clicky that increases our rune-arm charge rate dramatically? Like a endless fuselage for rune-arms? Now that would be a flashy skill and very artificer-y.

Oh that'd be lovely. That also reminds me I totally forgot to finish farming out the mats for the anniversary event coffee for rune arm charge.

Xgya
03-22-2018, 04:23 PM
I don't think there is an argument to made that it is a bad ability for a core 5, its just not particularly sexy or inspired; this is the chance for artificers to argue and hope for something more flashy and less... utilitarian.

EDIT: How about giving us a short duration clicky that increases our rune-arm charge rate dramatically? Like a endless fuselage for rune-arms? Now that would be a flashy skill and very artificer-y.

Or just a medium-cooldown clickie that says "Fires a fully charged runearm shot"?

zehnvhex
03-22-2018, 04:33 PM
You get an SLA on a different cooldown from the core Spell, effectively giving you 25% reduction to all damage for 1 minute out of every 3 (as opposed to 30 seconds out of every 3 minutes if you were just using the Spell version).

Unless you're tanking in which case it's 1 minute out of every 18.

zehnvhex
03-22-2018, 04:34 PM
Or just a medium-cooldown clickie that says "Fires a fully charged runearm shot"?

I like this.

grausherra
03-22-2018, 05:04 PM
Or just a medium-cooldown clickie that says "Fires a fully charged runearm shot"?

I like this too, but like my original suggestion they both likely belong in the AT tree, not MM :(

PsychoBlonde
03-22-2018, 09:01 PM
Warding Construct would be tempting to me if it also added something like 10 alchemical resistance. +3 to saves, not quite enough. +10 stacking resistance, okay, sounds useful.

If you get the benefits for Medium and Heavy armor, shouldn't it apply for Mithral and Adamantine body instead of ONLY Adamantine?

grausherra
03-22-2018, 10:32 PM
Warding Construct would be tempting to me if it also added something like 10 alchemical resistance. +3 to saves, not quite enough. +10 stacking resistance, okay, sounds useful.

If you get the benefits for Medium and Heavy armor, shouldn't it apply for Mithral and Adamantine body instead of ONLY Adamantine?

Mithral body is light armor I do believe.

Niminae
03-23-2018, 02:17 AM
You get an SLA on a different cooldown from the core Spell, effectively giving you 25% reduction to all damage for 1 minute out of every 3 (as opposed to 30 seconds out of every 3 minutes if you were just using the Spell version).

Could you provide some feedback on the DC calculations for Shatter Defense, Thunder-Shock Weapon, and Mighty Slam?

The tooltip description of how the DC is calculated does not appear to be accurate. And the interaction with Improved Sunder is a mystery. I am not the only person confused as to how this DC is calculated. Not by a long shot:

Thunder-shock and its DC - somethin' borked? (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/494261-Thunder-shock-and-its-DC-somethin-borked)

Hipparan
03-23-2018, 09:05 AM
Will regeneration construct have an AOE visual effect like a red positive energy aura or something to show the relative range of the effect? The drone on top of the character's head on Lamannia wasn't a clear enough sign for me.

Arch-Necromancer
03-24-2018, 04:32 AM
There was a time we'd tried to prototype giving that to Half Elf Arti Dilettantes and Gnomes; however, the Rune Arm System has a few things baked in that hard-scale with Arti levels. So you'd fire your Rune Arm for 1d6x(Actual Arti Level)... or effectively zero damage.

Might be able to put together a more open system someday that would allow for that, but probably not in the near future.

If you are scaling rune arms for 1d6x(Actual Arti Level), that means you can put Rune Arm use feat on level 1.

It would be nice if Rune Arm use would be gained on level 1.

Every class gets all of its proficiencies on level 1. Why would Artificer be an exception?

You could exchange Rune Arm Use with Rapid Reload (so Rapid Reload would be gaied on level 2) for balancing purposes.


It would be very useful for caster splash builds, but wouldn't really change anything for Artificers (since you reach level 2 very fast).

Arch-Necromancer
03-24-2018, 04:38 AM
What is the point of -ASF within the "Paragon Body" ?
Arcane Spell Failure does not affect artificers' spells. Is that going to change ?
Or is this for the multiclassing purposes ? Then Tier 5 is a little too deep in the tree.

That's why I mentioned in the last 2 threads that it should be spread to multiple tiers gradually (ASF removal/reduction for light, medium and heavy armor).

Tilomere
03-24-2018, 07:08 PM
What is the point of -ASF within the "Paragon Body" ?


It allows you to deal damage with RM tree in heroics where you have limited AP by wielding arcane scrolls as your primary weapon (acid rain/ice storm/acid cloud, cloudkill, etc.)

If you taunt, you can drop a flame turret, then scroll a few AoE cloud spells, and tank up and self heal.

By epics you will have a secondary AP tree, so RM won't be all alone.

It isn't reaper-hyper-optimized dps, but it will go through hard or normal difficulty.

ForgettableNPC
03-26-2018, 12:42 AM
Tier 1:


Toughness: +5/10/15 max hp



You madman! Have you learned nothing from the Toughness Warlock!? It was scrapped for a good reason!

Lauf
03-26-2018, 11:46 AM
Hey, folks. Thanks for all of the feedback in Round 1 of Lamannia. There was a lot of varied feedback, but a few specifics appeared frequently:

Battlefist being an important part of the P&P Prestige Class




Mighty Slam: Single Target Melee Attack: +1/2/3[w]. You may stun the target for 6 seconds. Stunned creatures are considered helpless. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. (DC: 10 + INT modifier + Sunder Modifiers). Requires an equipped Rune Arm to use.[/COLOR]
Battlefist: You empower your Rune Arm to devastate a target with a powerful strike. Single Target Melee Attack: +3[w], if the target is under the effect of Mighty Slam's Stun, it takes 1d3 Sonic Damage per Artificer level, 1d3 Force Damage per Artificer level, and is knocked down for 10 seconds with no save. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power. Requires an equipped Rune Arm to use. (This is also gettng a cool new animation.)[/COLOR]




Hi Steel,

Was thinking it would be nice if you were to incorporate the rune-arm charge into these calculations, just to add some flavor to it.
I feel a fully charged rune arm should have more of an impact when it hits than an uncharged one.

Niminae
04-03-2018, 08:43 AM
Has this thread been abandoned by the dev staff? It's fine if it has been, it'd just be nice to see a closing post so that there would no longer be any reason to check the thread every few days hoping to see answers to questions which were asked.

bloodnose13
04-04-2018, 04:52 PM
Core 4: +30 Repair Amplification. +50 Maximum Hit Points. +2 Max Dex Bonus while in Medium Armor, Heavy Armor, or Adamantine Body
Easily Fixed: +10 Healing Amp, +20 Repair Amp


why there is no/less healing amp? is there any change to those admixtures animations and method of useage?, they are harder and slower to use, and not very reliable for fleshie artificers, so it would seem that warforged is a prefered race for this tree.