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View Full Version : Get rid of the Asinine BTC tag on Cosmetics



JOTMON
02-21-2018, 10:58 PM
Get rid of the BTC tag for ALL cosmetics... its a stupid restriction that serves no reasonable purpose.


Revamp the cosmetics so they go into a Cosmetic inventory based on the cuti-pet inventory.. instead of all these regular inventory slot based cosmetics scattered all over the place ..
Consolidate them all into the same format as the pet inventory. a tab on the inventory sheet accessible by all the toons on the account..

https://i.imgur.com/LIbfAjO.gif[/QUOTE]


This way any cosmetics we purchase go into the pooled closet and we can actually cycle a collection of cosmetics.... and then DDO can sell cosmetic packs, and sets, and etc....
This one off inventory hogging and BTC cosmetic system is screwing up any interest in collecting cosmetics..


Could do something like this for our permanent pet/hirelings as well...
Panthers, Owlbears, scarecorws... we don't need all these to be BTC pet summonings on every character...
put them into a cuti-pet inventory that is account based... then once the ticket is used it is added to the pool.

This BTC fiasco needs to end..

Memnir
02-21-2018, 11:49 PM
https://i.imgur.com/AknsGjw.gif

MasterKernel
02-22-2018, 02:55 AM
its a stupid restriction
That's a reasonable restriction.


that serves no reasonable purpose.
The devs got money by selling several exact the same cosmetic items for the different characters of the same player. Quite reasonable to me.

It can be done in a better way (SW:ToR has the one good example ^_^ ). But get rid of BtC ? They won't do it.

JOTMON
02-22-2018, 09:52 AM
That's a reasonable restriction.


The devs got money by selling several exact the same cosmetic items for the different characters of the same player. Quite reasonable to me.

It can be done in a better way (SW:ToR has the one good example ^_^ ). But get rid of BtC ? They won't do it.


Maybe its reasonable for you. assuming you have bought several of the same cosmetics for your alts and never intend to change that look, or Reincarnate.
linking in SWTOR is pointless DDO is not a STWOR game.. LOTRO would be more relevant.. same programmers and similar engine core.


Unfortunately DDO has a poor system for maintaining and storing cosmetics.

BTA cosmetics allows us to shift unused cosmetics to alt toons.. I currently have 100 cosmetics sitting on my cosmetic alt mule toon..
These being BTA cosmetics that are able to be moved between alts without even factoring in the accumulating BTC cosmetics across my 46 characters on my account.

BTC cosmetics tend to get stuffed into TR caches, overflowing bank storage or destroyed since DDO's inventory system poorly supports the storage of a variety pack of cosmetics..
Also consider players cycle reincarnation lives where race changes over time.. thee BTC cosmetics for forged are not wearable on fleshies..

its problematic and adding more BTC cosmetics to the fray does not help.

I spend money ion the game, but will not buy anymore cosmetics since I can no longer accommodate the space or have the interest to lock down a variety pack of BTC cosmetics on singular toons.

These freebie ones from the cake reward will effectively go unclaimed specifically due to the BTC status...

Cordovan
02-22-2018, 11:09 AM
The idea of a cosmetic closet is something we have discussed, as would a separate tab for cosmetics only, but the issue is a technical one. Cosmetics are not a "singleton", which is an inside baseball term, but it means they cannot go into their own separate account bank. Also, it means they are not typed in a way that allows them to go into a separate tab, folder, or bag. Making them do that would be a re-engineering of the cosmetic system.

Lagin
02-22-2018, 11:16 AM
The idea of a cosmetic closet is something we have discussed, as would a separate tab for cosmetics only, but the issue is a technical one. Cosmetics are not a "singleton", which is an inside baseball term, but it means they cannot go into their own separate account bank. Also, it means they are not typed in a way that allows them to go into a separate tab, folder, or bag. Making them do that would be a re-engineering of the cosmetic system.


IRC there was a conversation in Discord Chat about this. I was all over some fancy UI layout artwork stuff for that tab or page, until I read how complex cosmetics were/are.

Save this for DDO V 2.0. And yes folks, it's coming. ;)

Aelonwy
02-22-2018, 11:55 AM
The devs got money by selling several exact the same cosmetic items for the different characters of the same player. Quite reasonable to me.

It can be done in a better way (SW:ToR has the one good example ^_^ ). But get rid of BtC ? They won't do it.

Its not a reasonable restriction. Most cosmetics they currently sell are BTA. The old cosmetics that attached to one particular item were BTA until you used them on the item and then it depended on the item; BTC item made the cosmetic BTC, BTA item remained BTA, unbound item became BTA. I see more to support BTA functionality than BTC.

Please SSG develop a cosmetic tab inventory, even if you put a hefty price tag on it. I will purchase.

https://i.imgur.com/jgPYqZA.jpg

Aelonwy
02-22-2018, 11:59 AM
The idea of a cosmetic closet is something we have discussed, as would a separate tab for cosmetics only, but the issue is a technical one. Cosmetics are not a "singleton", which is an inside baseball term, but it means they cannot go into their own separate account bank. Also, it means they are not typed in a way that allows them to go into a separate tab, folder, or bag. Making them do that would be a re-engineering of the cosmetic system.

Then you guys need to FULL STOP with BTC cosmetics. These are not raid items. I have 12 characters I play and all of them have 4 RL expansion cosmetics that sit in the bank because for some reason you made them BTC unnecessarily.

Seikojin
02-22-2018, 12:12 PM
Then you guys need to FULL STOP with BTC cosmetics. These are not raid items. I have 12 characters I play and all of them have 4 RL expansion cosmetics that sit in the bank because for some reason you made them BTC unnecessarily.

You know... You could just delete the cosmetic, right? I wouldn't keep free cosmetics unless they are really useful or awesome in appearance. Paid ones though. Definitely stay.

Enoach
02-22-2018, 12:46 PM
You know... You could just delete the cosmetic, right? I wouldn't keep free cosmetics unless they are really useful or awesome in appearance. Paid ones though. Definitely stay.

The pack-rat side of the brain doesn't allow people like me to throw stuff out :).


As a note, I like the separate storage idea. It might be worth it to dedicate that time and effort, especially since I'm sure SSG could put a price on it - Maybe add it as part of the Banking UI and as part of the TR Cache overhaul at the same time.

tafla421
02-22-2018, 12:56 PM
The idea of a cosmetic closet is something we have discussed, as would a separate tab for cosmetics only, but the issue is a technical one. Cosmetics are not a "singleton", which is an inside baseball term, but it means they cannot go into their own separate account bank. Also, it means they are not typed in a way that allows them to go into a separate tab, folder, or bag. Making them do that would be a re-engineering of the cosmetic system.

well how about this instead of rewriting old code make a new cosmetic system where there is a new mirror of glamoring that can make new cosmetic item from any armor or old cosmetic. code the new cosmetics so they can go into a cosmetic tab for the whole account. this way you don't have to touch the old code and players get their cosmetics tab like SSG has in lotro. oh and sorry if this sounds demanding its just meant as a suggestion for a work around to what many players see is a problem with the current cosmetic system.

Iriale
02-22-2018, 01:39 PM
The idea of a cosmetic closet is something we have discussed, as would a separate tab for cosmetics only, but the issue is a technical one. Cosmetics are not a "singleton", which is an inside baseball term, but it means they cannot go into their own separate account bank. Also, it means they are not typed in a way that allows them to go into a separate tab, folder, or bag. Making them do that would be a re-engineering of the cosmetic system.
At very last turn all cosmetics in bta!!! That can not be so hard!

Gratch
02-22-2018, 01:55 PM
Then you guys need to FULL STOP with BTC cosmetics. These are not raid items. I have 12 characters I play and all of them have 4 RL expansion cosmetics that sit in the bank because for some reason you made them BTC unnecessarily.

Agreed. I'm sure there's some one-off story on why cosmetics are now BTC - I don't think it's technical since we do have BTA cosemetics, but given SSG has no easy solution (which means nothing coming for at least a year), SSG needs to stop making cosmetics BTC so we can use an alt to store stuff.

Seikojin
02-22-2018, 03:00 PM
The pack-rat side of the brain doesn't allow people like me to throw stuff out :).


As a note, I like the separate storage idea. It might be worth it to dedicate that time and effort, especially since I'm sure SSG could put a price on it - Maybe add it as part of the Banking UI and as part of the TR Cache overhaul at the same time.

After I said delete items, I immediately log on to wayfinder (not my main server), pick my 38 toons out of the 44 I made to get items, and start picking their 'final' robe/armor/docent. LOL I like the look of the cosmetic, so for me, it is an easy grab. I wish the cake offered all cake rewards, however this may be a new era for cakes. Last time I brought up expanding anniversary rewards, the tech behind the barter was brought up and its limits. So hopefully something was done to get past that.

The inventory management in DDO has needed love for a long time (I would say after heroic Greensteel was introduced). However 10x cost of deployment for an in-use app tends to stifle a large majority of rip and rebuild projects. There are a LOT of spaghetti bandaids in ddo's code base I would imagine. Not purposefully placed to prevent changes, just done to meet deadlines and scope creep. The struggle is real devs. I know. I make your lives hard. ;)

This is all speculation and opinion mind you... But I haven't had any thoughtful brain-ercising in a while... I think the current state of inventory management is like so (semi-chronologically):

Character Inventory RDS DB

Old Tabs 1-5
For this, it held a limited, known amount. Tabs 1-3 were on by default and 4 and 5 were earned in rewards. So a small array to hold some strings and values.
Old Bank tabs 1-4
For this, it held a limited, known amount. Tabs 1-2 were on by default and 3 and 4 were earned in rewards. So a small array to hold some strings and values.
Overflow
This space contains items dropped to a players inventory without their choice. No known limit or size, it is a small array to hold some strings and values.
Bags
This is a big messy one. You have exclusive types, each holding several array sizes and logic controls. These are a subset of the tabs, expanding their range. However the rules on them cause some problems.


Reincarnation RDS DB

Item Count Limits
This was added before the new personal/per character tabs. It is a per character array of strings with no property to limit how many it can hold. However there are hard coded limits on the DB that eventually would limit what the table could hold. These limits are both cost based and implementation based. The idea initially being no one person could have enough base items + overflow + personal Bank to go beyond the hidden limits.


Shared Bank RDS DB

Shared Bank Tabs
This initially wasn't a paginated list. It was the same as the bank UI. However it was very limited in size and would have perf hits as it grew. However, the code was newer than old item management, so it was more expandable/scalable. It is a more robust array to hold strings and properties. It has some logic and rules that prevent duping and dropping special items into it.
Crafting Storage
Created when the shared bank had its UI changed to be a paginated list. It has logic built in to prevent dupes and non-ingredient items from being allowed to the list. It is an array to hold strings and properties.
New Bank Tabs 5-10
Patched in, this allowed additional tabs. How many? Unknown. Depends on load. Still a small array, however it is compounded perf hits due to being added in as a new thing instead of expanding the capabilities/code of the original. Done this way to not take 20 years to implement with 95% confidence in qa.
New Tabs 6-10
Patched in, this allowed additional tabs. How many? Unknown. Depends on load. Still a small array, however it is compounded perf hits due to being added in as a new thing instead of expanding the capabilities/code of the original. Done this way to not take 20 years to implement with 95% confidence in qa.




This doesn't even include pet storage, sentient weapon, new greensteel management, and any proposed storage.

Now looking at the lists, what stands out functionally that could be a problem? Overflow, bags, and reincarnation cache seem to be the biggest offenders. If those were removed, then you could update the old storage management to be part of the new management and have something a bit more controlled and scalable. I think the lowest cost and risky move to take now, would be to make a 100000 item array per server/account, with a deprecation mechanic that is disabled, dump all items for all characters into there, block reincarnations, redirect all overflow to that big bag, and rebuild the inventory management to follow the shared bank system/management instead. After the new system is in place, turn on the transfer bag deprecation flag, and as 1 item is removed, the slot count in that bag decays. When the bag is empty, it is disabled for that account/server.

With the current paginated banking, you could put that into the character UI and just have tabs for various inventories a character could hold. So a tab for personal space, a tab for cosmetics, a tab for pets, a tab for their items, and a tab for stackables (all stackables). Without any of the twisted redirects, joins, and multiple copies of logic making a check on an item drop to the storage, perf could be freed to handle the current item handling and maybe even grow.

Seikojin
02-22-2018, 03:04 PM
At very last turn all cosmetics in bta!!! That can not be so hard!

It is more machine resource intensive to deliver BTA items to some of your characters than to deliver an item to every character that logs in. Also Anniversary cakes have always been a 1/per character.

Selvera
02-22-2018, 03:18 PM
So... Just give a BtA cosmetic to every character that logs on.

Or are they expecting people to horde thousands of BtA cosmetics through create/transfer/delete methods and hold onto them forever just to bog down the servers?

Personally, if they just gave a BtA cosmetic to every character I'd take 1 of each on my main server and nothing more.

Aelonwy
02-22-2018, 03:22 PM
It is more machine resource intensive to deliver BTA items to some of your characters than to deliver an item to every character that logs in. Also Anniversary cakes have always been a 1/per character.


The Eleven Year old cake delivered a choice of BTA items. Tasty Hams from the Birthday Cake of Wishes were entirely unbound. Some of the Expansion items in the past have been BTA and they are delivered to every character that logs in on that account.

Seikojin
02-22-2018, 03:24 PM
So... Just give a BtA cosmetic to every character that logs on.

Or are they expecting people to horde thousands of BtA cosmetics through create/transfer/delete methods and hold onto them forever just to bog down the servers?

Personally, if they just gave a BtA cosmetic to every character I'd take 1 of each on my main server and nothing more.

I do get it. I mean with BTC you are limited to 201 slots to potentially put this item. If it was BTA, you could have 401 potential slots. That 1 being equipped.

Arianrhod
02-22-2018, 05:35 PM
The idea of a cosmetic closet is something we have discussed, as would a separate tab for cosmetics only, but the issue is a technical one. Cosmetics are not a "singleton", which is an inside baseball term, but it means they cannot go into their own separate account bank. Also, it means they are not typed in a way that allows them to go into a separate tab, folder, or bag. Making them do that would be a re-engineering of the cosmetic system.

Well, if they can't go into a bag, tab, or closet without reengineering the whole system, I think it's time to give everyone 2 personal (not shared) bank pages to start with, before adding the favor-bought & store-bought pages. There's just way too much more btc stuff these days, even for brand-new players/characters. As an example - when I first started playing, every new character got 3 btc items (founders hat, minor boots of striding & natural armor amulet). Now each character gets those 3 + 2 water breathing trinkets, a lesser heart or 2, a lioness, & 3 consumables from expansions that add a bunch more things once opened. And that's not even including stuff like tokens of the traveler & challenge tokens, or all the stuff vet status & iconic characters get on creation, before acquiring any bank pages.