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View Full Version : Swashbuckler: Other Feats Better than Single-Weapon Fighting, Right



Ayrleig
02-06-2018, 03:02 PM
I've started a Swashbuckling Elf Bard with the SWF feat (single-weapon fighting, not single white female) and considering the opportunity cost in losing out on other feats, I just don't see an advantage with SWF... especially since the +side damage range it provides flatly doesn't work with 1.5(damage) or 2(damage) weapons! Better to invest in spell power or something and stay well stocked in weapons. (And a good buckler from the outset -- very significant in defense and possibly spell power.)

Am I right? Or, how can this possibly be incorrect?

Loromir
02-06-2018, 03:24 PM
I've started a Swashbuckling Elf Bard with the SWF feat (single-weapon fighting, not single white female) and considering the opportunity cost in losing out on other feats, I just don't see an advantage with SWF... especially since the +side damage range it provides flatly doesn't work with 1.5(damage) or 2(damage) weapons! Better to invest in spell power or something and stay well stocked in weapons. (And a good buckler from the outset -- very significant in defense and possibly spell power.)

Am I right? Or, how can this possibly be incorrect?

SWF line of feats gives a very large boost to attack speed. If your going to be a Swashbuckler...you really need the SWF feats.

Phoenicis
02-06-2018, 03:27 PM
Swashbuckling also lets you use things in your off hand (orb, runearm and buckler) and still get the SWF bonuses.

With a buckler you can stack the shield enhancements from stalwart defender, getting some pretty impressive attack speed boosts along with some nice shield ehnacements and offhand automated shield bashes.

unbongwah
02-06-2018, 04:05 PM
You need to look at the complete chain or more specifically Gtr SWF (http://ddowiki.com/page/Greater_Single_Weapon_Fighting): "Your Single-Weapon Fighting bonus is increased to a +30% Combat Style bonus to attack speed and 2 additional Melee Power (for a total of 6) and 50% more of your appropriate ability score to your damage (similar to Two-Handed Fighting)."

You need all three SWF feats to fully realize your DPS as a Swashbuckler. Note the SWF attack speed bonus stacks with the Haste spell but not with Vanguard's speed bonuses (if you do a bard / fighter). Also the Melee Power from SWF feats doesn't stack with the MP from Shield Mastery feats. However if you're going S&B Swashbuckler (Skirmisher), you still want Shield Mastery for the doublestrike and PRR bonuses which will stack.

Kriogen
02-06-2018, 04:17 PM
Increased attack speed (from SWF feats) has great synergy with doublestrike. You swing faster, more chances to doublestrike. Also more criticals, more vorpal, more <insert stuff> per given time.

It adds up really fast.

Spadedragon
02-06-2018, 04:48 PM
Anyone know if the secondary shield bash and from fighter vanguard and paladin vanguard stack?

Ayrleig
02-06-2018, 04:49 PM
Expert answers as usual. Just suffering from 3rd Level Blues I suppose then, while paying the price of preparation.

It's still so arbitrary that you can't use a damage-multiplied weapon and get the plus-damage effects at all, not even a fraction. But D&D has always had it's very arbitrary bits.

Fedora1
02-06-2018, 04:58 PM
especially since the +side damage range it provides flatly doesn't work with 1.5(damage) or 2(damage) weapons!


It's still so arbitrary that you can't use a damage-multiplied weapon and get the plus-damage effects at all, not even a fraction.

I don't understand this (honestly) so could someone break it down or explain what this means?
What is + side damage?
What is plus-damage effects?
In what way do they not work with the damage dice multiplier?

TIA :)

Loromir
02-06-2018, 07:02 PM
I don't understand this (honestly) so could someone break it down or explain what this means?
What is + side damage?
What is plus-damage effects?
In what way do they not work with the damage dice multiplier?

TIA :)

I decided I didn't need to understand....my answer would have been the same regardless.

EllisDee37
02-06-2018, 09:16 PM
Expert answers as usual. Just suffering from 3rd Level Blues I suppose then, while paying the price of preparation.

It's still so arbitrary that you can't use a damage-multiplied weapon and get the plus-damage effects at all, not even a fraction. But D&D has always had it's very arbitrary bits.I don't really understand what you're saying here, but it sounds like you're looking for a good swashbuckler weapon (http://ddowiki.com/page/List_of_Swashbuckler_weapons_with_improved_crit_pr ofile).

When swashbuckling, I personally use Tiefling Assassin's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Tiefling_Assassin's_Blade), but you might also like Sky Pirate's Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sky_Pirate's_Dagger). The key difference for me is Resonant Arms (http://ddowiki.com/page/Swashbuckler_enhancements#Tier_Three), which compels me to prefer weapons with more crits (13-20x3) as opposed to stronger crits (15-20x4). Thus, Tiefling Assassin's Blade.

Doing 6d6 sonic damage multiplied by spell power every crit from Resonant Arms is a staggering amount of extra damage at low levels.

fmalfeas
02-07-2018, 06:28 AM
At low level, for buckling your swash, I'd suggest any light weapon with vorpal. Use the SWF + Swashbuckling attack speed to just instakill everything that gets in front of you.

At mid level, you'll have enhancements that make crits a near-certainty on a high frequency, even with the lamest of light weapons. At that point, I suggest things like Turbulent Epee, Forester's Brush Hook, Razorend, Envenomed Shortsword. There's also Elemental Rapier of Air.

Be sure to get the Ghost Touch dagger out of Catacombs too.

Ulfo
02-07-2018, 07:20 AM
If your going to be a Swashbuckler...you really need the SWF feats.

Pure lie. 8)


You need all three SWF feats to fully realize your DPS as a Swashbuckler.

Of course no! :)

Swashy not limited only for close combat, it's great for throwers toons too! And for ranged combat, SWF line is pure waste of feats because it's not apply to throwers weapons. 8)

Loromir
02-07-2018, 10:48 AM
Pure lie. 8)



Of course no! :)

Swashy not limited only for close combat, it's great for throwers toons too! And for ranged combat, SWF line is pure waste of feats because it's not apply to throwers weapons. 8)

Based on the OP Post..it is reasonable to assume "close combat"...therefore SWF is a must.

unbongwah
02-07-2018, 11:14 AM
I just don't see an advantage with SWF... especially since the +side damage range it provides flatly doesn't work with 1.5(damage) or 2(damage) weapons!

It's still so arbitrary that you can't use a damage-multiplied weapon and get the plus-damage effects at all, not even a fraction.
I still don't know what you mean by this. Are you talking about +[W] modifiers? Those should work normally with SWF feats. Damage effects like Flaming Burst? Again, should work fine w/SWF. Do you mean glancing blows? That's irrelevant to Swashbuckling.

Fedora1
02-07-2018, 06:09 PM
I don't understand this (honestly) so could someone break it down or explain what this means?
What is + side damage?
What is plus-damage effects?
In what way do they not work with the damage dice multiplier?

TIA :)


I decided I didn't need to understand....my answer would have been the same regardless.

Fair enough. :)

I also want to go on record and point out I was the first person to ask this. lol

glmfw1
02-08-2018, 09:57 AM
I played Elf Swashbuckler, Pure Bard, with the SWF line of feats & Buckler, weapon finesse, Elf tree Enhancements (Dex, Rapier bonuses etc), Swashbuckler tree almost filled (there were a couple of things I didn't use), Precision and Improved Crit.
I can't remember what levels I took things at, but DPS was good. Individual benefits from a feat/enhancement may not be much on their own, but stack all the right things together and you get pretty powerful. Planning what options to pick at what levels made a difference early on.
My builds aren't the most optimal (picking the right multi-class options and hand-picking from the appropriate trees can add more power - and I think unbongwah is the king of advice on that front) but as a bard I was still topping the kill counts in parties, and taking down opponents with ease when soloing.

PsychoBlonde
02-15-2018, 01:35 AM
I still don't know what you mean by this. Are you talking about +[W] modifiers? Those should work normally with SWF feats. Damage effects like Flaming Burst? Again, should work fine w/SWF. Do you mean glancing blows? That's irrelevant to Swashbuckling.

I'm *pretty* sure that they mean that if you have a weapon that has a higher than usual die type, it's not further modified by SWF or Swashbuckling, so (for example) if you were to find a light hammer that is [1d6] instead of the [1d4] that is usual, this isn't modified by swashbuckling.

That's the only thing I can think of, and AFAIK swashbuckling is already agnostic to such bonuses because it doesn't affect the die type of the weapon on its own, it just makes adjustments to threat range and crit multiplier (on some weapons), which DOES apply if you have an "unusual" weapon. For instance, the light mace Skullsmasher becomes an 18-20/x4 crit due to its unusually high existing crit multiplier.

PsychoBlonde
02-15-2018, 01:39 AM
At mid level, you'll have enhancements that make crits a near-certainty on a high frequency, even with the lamest of light weapons. At that point, I suggest things like Turbulent Epee, Forester's Brush Hook, Razorend, Envenomed Shortsword. There's also Elemental Rapier of Air.

BY FAR the best mid-level swashbuckler weapon (which is bind on equip, so you can even buy it off the auction house if you're lucky), is Skullsmasher from Gianthold. It winds up being an 18-20/x4 crit (15-20/x4 if you have improved crit, which OF COURSE YOU DO).

Everything else is junk compared to that stupid little mace.

EllisDee37
02-15-2018, 02:30 AM
BY FAR the best mid-level swashbuckler weapon (which is bind on equip, so you can even buy it off the auction house if you're lucky), is Skullsmasher from Gianthold. It winds up being an 18-20/x4 crit (15-20/x4 if you have improved crit, which OF COURSE YOU DO).

Everything else is junk compared to that stupid little mace.Sky Pirate's Dagger is also 15-20x4 (even without Improved Critical) and is ML4, though I prefer Tiefling Assassin's Blade (13-20x3) to get more Resonant Arms procs. There are a few other 15-20x4 weapons to choose from for heroic leveling, but I think Skullsmasher is the easiest one to get.

However, in terms of "One weapon to rule them all", you really can't beat Forester's Brush Hook: 13-20x4 and it breaks all DR. (Metalline and Aligned, yummy!) The downside is that you have to spend a feat on kama proficiency.

Equal to Skullsmasher is the Axe of the Unseen Blow (15-20x4) but if you have 6 fighter levels you can toss in another multiplier on top of that: 15-20x5 (*swoon*)

Ultinoob
02-15-2018, 04:40 PM
Well you have forgotten about the forgotten axe :) Grinning

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Forgotten_Axe

It is not better than foresters brush hook, but if you have 6 levels of fighter it gets to be 19-20x3 base + 2*2 from bard+1 improved crit=14-20x3 and with fighter crit multiplier thats 14-20x4.

And you can use it from level 10.

Just my 2 cents.

Xandez
03-07-2018, 07:23 AM
Well you have forgotten about the forgotten axe :) Grinning

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Forgotten_Axe

It is not better than foresters brush hook, but if you have 6 levels of fighter it gets to be 19-20x3 base + 2*2 from bard+1 improved crit=14-20x3 and with fighter crit multiplier thats 14-20x4.

And you can use it from level 10.

Just my 2 cents.

With OC and LD destiny (devastating crit and headmans chop) does this axe become 14-18x4 + 19-20x7 ?

Ultinoob
03-07-2018, 09:06 AM
With OC and LD destiny (devastating crit and headmans chop) does this axe become 14-18x4 + 19-20x7 ?

I would believe so - haven't testet it - but 1.50[1d6] + 4 in base damage is kind of low at high levels.