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View Full Version : Champion mobs aren't fun.



MrCaddo
01-07-2018, 10:48 PM
So yeah.. I've been back for 3 weeks after being gone since 2013 and these enemies just aren't fun. Previously when I use to play I'd run stuff on elite and sometimes have a hard time (28pt builds then) and sometimes have an alright time with a personal healer. Now? As if.

My characters are NOT reincarnated, they do NOT have epic feats or past life feats to help them out against champions. I'm honestly curious why they are even in Hard/Elite settings when there is an apparently 'tough' difficult named reaper. Sounds like it belongs solely in there.

This may come off as whining and what not, but honestly, I'm not having fun. I've tried my Barbarian and got him to 20 but Elite quests were a no-go so most of the time I had to run on Hard and hope I didn't get dive bombed by champions and if so just said screw it and took a re-entry penalty.

I miss playing the way it was in 2013, even if people tell me 'oh the way they did gear now makes champions so easy!' Alright, fair enough, but as a low level player/returning player, these mobs (be it caster, or cruelty, or just a group of 2-3 and other mobs with 1-2 crowns) just freaking hurt.

I noticed on my Barb it started to get a bit easier around mid teens, but all this does is make me dread leveling up new characters. I decided to level another character to do and he's currently 5 and I'm starting to see champions in Hard. Not a big deal I'd imagine, except for the fact that if its ever a champion with any type of paralysis, you might as well prepare for the death sound.

Long winded, I know, but this game just doesn't feel as much fun to me anymore when it went from enemies just having a higher CR/hp/damage to giving mobs instead those already increased stats even MORE stats and special buffs on top of it.

Could we at least get a way to turn these stupid things off, even if its like an exp penalty of like 10-20%?

/end rant

cpw_acc
01-08-2018, 05:09 AM
I understand that the boost in difficulty may come as a shock after a long time away, but to be fair DDO was always supposed to be a group activity and Elite was always supposed to require a party.

In the time you were away there were a LOT of threads full of people complaining about how easy the game had become (admittedly down to power creep). Hence the first 'resolution' to this was champions.

People still kept complaining about how easy the game had become. Hence Reaper mode, so people could choose to play on an even harder difficulty setting (I'm not getting into the argument over whether any of this was effective or not - I'm just trying to update you on the history!).

There is also the case that gear got a lot better since you were away, so if you are playing old characters with old items you are going to be under the power curve.

Unfortunately, if you prefer to solo then the answer is probably just to go for Hard setting unless you can pull a party together. At least until you have a few past lives under your belt or acquired better gear.

Kriogen
01-08-2018, 09:39 AM
/signed

Move champs to reaper.

Aelonwy
01-08-2018, 10:28 AM
I would definitely support a move to champions in Reaper only. I've hated them since they were introduced.

Enoach
01-08-2018, 10:53 AM
I personally am still disappointed with the implementation of Champion mobs. I owe that in part to feeling like they were being described as being implemented as a "Random but significant boost that could effect how a static encounter occurs" an Advanced version "Rare Encounter" with a twist.

But then again I see a game as a challenge when there is a potential to not be successful and when my character needs more then one or two abilities spammed when they are off timer.

-------
Part of the issue is players don't approach quests asking what "abilities" do I need to be minimum successful but instead approach a quest of how can I put this square peg in that round hole. I'm glad "Get a bigger hammer" is not the "best solution"


That being said, my first thought to the OP is maybe step back and evaluate not only what did you do, but think about what options you didn't take that hindsight may have brought to your attention.

Much like a squirrel and the stump, there are many alternative ways to get past. One option is "more people" but that is not always the most available.

Memnir
01-08-2018, 11:00 AM
I enjoy them, little islands of randomized challenge that they are.

Quikster
01-08-2018, 11:28 AM
Why can’t you run normal?

If you get a few lives out of the way you can step it up. I mean if you’re running solo what’s the barricade to run normal?

Quikster
01-08-2018, 11:30 AM
I enjoy them, little islands of randomized challenge that they are.

As do I. I always love a big fight where 3-4 extra chests pop! Lewt h?r

fmalfeas
01-08-2018, 11:30 AM
-------
Part of the issue is players don't approach quests asking what "abilities" do I need to be minimum successful but instead approach a quest of how can I put this square peg in that round hole. I'm glad "Get a bigger hammer" is not the "best solution"




These days, I go out of my way to have Acid Resist and Acid Absorb because of Soul of Cruelty champs. If they hit you with a Magic Missile shot, or are spamming you with arrows or fast melee attacks, you can end up with 100+ a tick acid damage on you before you know it. And they tend to have Mind Block, so you can't charm/dance/hold them. They are, by far, the most dangerous champs I've found.

MrCaddo
01-08-2018, 11:35 AM
Why can’t you run normal?

If you get a few lives out of the way you can step it up. I mean if you’re running solo what’s the barricade to run normal?

I've actually been running normal on my rogue (he's 13 atm) and I can honestly say it is way more enjoyable. I just like the little bit of extra XP you get from hard/elite like it previously use to be. Also, the favor gain is 2/3x more compared to normal which was also nice to give extra Favor for the store to buy stuff.

It just honestly sucks that if you do infact do normal, you're slowing down favor gain/ddo store point gain when previously you could run hard/elite and if elite was too hard take a step back to hard. Now it seems like if elite is too hard (which for me as solo, normally is because the random champs steamroll me at times) take a step back to hard to tone down the enemies, except you're still facing the enemies with the random affixes. The only way to remove them currently is run normal, get less xp, get less favor and miss out on some items (unless I'm wrong, doing the Gianthold questline on Normal has never given me a 'named' item, but doing it on 'Hard' gave me 3-4 items from chests)

Enoach
01-08-2018, 12:05 PM
These days, I go out of my way to have Acid Resist and Acid Absorb because of Soul of Cruelty champs. If they hit you with a Magic Missile shot, or are spamming you with arrows or fast melee attacks, you can end up with 100+ a tick acid damage on you before you know it. And they tend to have Mind Block, so you can't charm/dance/hold them. They are, by far, the most dangerous champs I've found.

I have had different conversations of "most dangerous" champs. You have pointed out (maybe not realizing it) that this differs by how you prepare for it. It is no different then running a character that has always been immune to fear or negative energy drain and suddenly finding yourself unable to do anything because you are scared or "Not able to perform action" because you don't meet the requirements.

Mind Block is only one way, you do realize there are spells that don't effect the mind that have similar effects?

Personally, the one time I threw up my hands in frustration was the 5 Fear Reapers that spawned in TOR during the Acid Dragon fight. But in hindsight that was a funny full party wipe and proof we were not ready for R5 yet :).

Enoach
01-08-2018, 12:10 PM
I've actually been running normal on my rogue (he's 13 atm) and I can honestly say it is way more enjoyable. I just like the little bit of extra XP you get from hard/elite like it previously use to be. Also, the favor gain is 2/3x more compared to normal which was also nice to give extra Favor for the store to buy stuff.

It just honestly sucks that if you do infact do normal, you're slowing down favor gain/ddo store point gain when previously you could run hard/elite and if elite was too hard take a step back to hard. Now it seems like if elite is too hard (which for me as solo, normally is because the random champs steamroll me at times) take a step back to hard to tone down the enemies, except you're still facing the enemies with the random affixes. The only way to remove them currently is run normal, get less xp, get less favor and miss out on some items (unless I'm wrong, doing the Gianthold questline on Normal has never given me a 'named' item, but doing it on 'Hard' gave me 3-4 items from chests)

Named items drop at all the difficulties. Gianthold is one that has a Normal, Hard, Elite versions with differences some with power levels and some with available augments. I believe Normal is also 1 ML lower as well. I have a few Normal levels that are more valuable to me because of the ML difference. But I do admit to having a pretty extensive vault of "toys"

Quikster
01-08-2018, 12:31 PM
I've actually been running normal on my rogue (he's 13 atm) and I can honestly say it is way more enjoyable. I just like the little bit of extra XP you get from hard/elite like it previously use to be. Also, the favor gain is 2/3x more compared to normal which was also nice to give extra Favor for the store to buy stuff.

It just honestly sucks that if you do infact do normal, you're slowing down favor gain/ddo store point gain when previously you could run hard/elite and if elite was too hard take a step back to hard. Now it seems like if elite is too hard (which for me as solo, normally is because the random champs steamroll me at times) take a step back to hard to tone down the enemies, except you're still facing the enemies with the random affixes. The only way to remove them currently is run normal, get less xp, get less favor and miss out on some items (unless I'm wrong, doing the Gianthold questline on Normal has never given me a 'named' item, but doing it on 'Hard' gave me 3-4 items from chests)

Sounds like you figured it out then. I would suggest grouping for the areas you need to get favor in for now. When you get to cap tr. when your char begins to grow in power you can tackle h/e/r solo.

I do understand. When dungeon alert came out many of us were upset. Now it’s normal. Things in games change for better or worse, and sometimes you can’t do anything about it. Just gotta adapt or find a new game to play.

fmalfeas
01-08-2018, 12:41 PM
I have had different conversations of "most dangerous" champs. You have pointed out (maybe not realizing it) that this differs by how you prepare for it. It is no different then running a character that has always been immune to fear or negative energy drain and suddenly finding yourself unable to do anything because you are scared or "Not able to perform action" because you don't meet the requirements.

Mind Block is only one way, you do realize there are spells that don't effect the mind that have similar effects?

Personally, the one time I threw up my hands in frustration was the 5 Fear Reapers that spawned in TOR during the Acid Dragon fight. But in hindsight that was a funny full party wipe and proof we were not ready for R5 yet :).

Absolutely. The issue is that if I'm not playing a wiz, cleric, lock, or druid, often the only CC on hand is someone who specced all-in on Enchantment or Illusion, and is completely unable to shut them down. Earthquake, Evard's, Sleet Storm, Web (if nothing's throwing fire around), high DC shadar-kai chain, Flesh to Stone, Sound Burst, Prismatic Spray (if you're lucky), Cyclonic Blast, Stunning Fist, Stinking Cloud, Incendiary Cloud, Glitterdust, Sunburst, Contagion (Blinding Sickness), Blindness, those all are effective at changing the threat level of mobs at high speed without relying on mind-affecting.

But I've found that a large number of players are highly reliant on Otto's Sphere of Dancing, Mass Hold Monster, Mass Suggestion/Mass Charm Monster, and so on as their CC options, and when something is immune, it gets to run amok.

Annex
01-08-2018, 05:39 PM
Monster Champions ruined DDO for me. The game was so much better in 2013. I continue to slowly amass Epic Past Life Feats on Epic Normal Difficulty but it has become sheer drudgery. I spend less and less time in game as I slowly lose hope of ever getting anywhere. I thought Ravenloft was a fun expansion but it did not actually help my personal plight. At this point I am mostly running on addiction.

My apologies for the negative post. I mostly try to write funny or quirky stuff but Monster Champions really bring me down.

Melkazar
01-08-2018, 07:13 PM
Craft some runestones. I target the champion first and once he is stone I take out the rest of the mobs. As you also observed, rogues (mechanics) are very cool.

Selvera
01-10-2018, 02:54 PM
I've always been a fan of:

1st life: Run normal; at 20 farm a little gear and plan out a second life.
2nd life: Run hard; at 20 farm a little gear and plan out a third life.
3rd life: Run elite; you should now be prepared for elite in every life after this.

As for champions? Let's look at this a couple different ways...

1st: Champions ramp up in difficulty as you ramp up the difficulty level. The champions you see on hard are rather trivial, they have a usually few fairly weak effects and don't hit all that much harder then the mob they would have been. The champions you see on elite are a step up from this; can be challenging and can change how you should approach a mob to engage it. The champions in reaper mode are some of the strongest enemies you'll face; because they have more champion abilities then any of the previous champions, and hit much harder then the champions you face in elite or lower difficulties.

2nd: Champions are like "uniques" in Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 or other arpgs. They're random enemies with set special abilities that you can somewhat learn what they are and how to combat them. It would be cooler if they created walls; reflected damage, buffed their nearby allies or shot bombardment missiles into the air that you had to dodge; but I'm guessing the devs have to work within what they can do with the current system.

wonkey
01-11-2018, 08:54 PM
I'm not going to tell you how to play, but just putting in my 2 cents.

Hard is still stupid easy. Elite, most of the time, is still way too easy. I miss the days when things were much harder, overall, counting champions.

This is coming from a guy who plays exclusively 'hardcore PD', so I understand that my viewpoint isn't 'typical'. However, it also means that I am coming from the viewpoint of poorly geared, first life toons who really, really don't want to die, even once.

If the expectation is that a first-life, under-geared toon should steamroll elite solo (I assume taking 5 times the time to play cautiously isn't what you want), that may be fine for you, but I think that it would be terrible for the game overall.

Annex
01-11-2018, 09:29 PM
Hard is still stupid easy. Elite, most of the time, is still way too easy. I miss the days when things were much harder, overall, counting champions.

This is true for you. I am respectfully telling you other people are having a very different experience even though they are attempting to build good characters, they are attempting to acquire good equipment, and they are not rushing anything.

wonkey
01-11-2018, 10:59 PM
This is true for you. I am respectfully telling you other people are having a very different experience even though they are attempting to build good characters, they are attempting to acquire good equipment, and they are not rushing anything.

I imagine you and I have very different meaning when we say, "rushing" but that's beside the point :P

My main point is that hard is eminently doable, even without a lot of character power (through stuff like tomes and equipment), even with crowns. I don't know if I'm more 'skilled' than you, but the fact that someone can do it, and find it easy, means it's not a game limitation, it's, potentially, a 'you' limitation.
It may not always be a cakewalk, especially not solo, but, again, I don't think it's good for the game if it would be. The nice extra favour and xp and such that you mention from running at higher difficulty is supposed to be a reward for a more challenging experience. It's SUPPOSED to be harder.

lyrecono
01-11-2018, 11:38 PM
Dear OP,

I understand where you're comming from, i really do.
The problem started due to players and devs were thinking the content had gotten too easy.
Although dificulty had gone up slightly with nearly every update , people rarely noticed because they kept up with gear and past lives and used builds that broke the game.
People were verry reluctant to come off their exploit build.
When nerfed they often disapear from the game, leaving normal players with the damage.

On lamania, new content usually gets tested on peoples main toons, not a first life barbarian, thus ballance is off.
Even when they play, some of the devs stick to op classes like artificer, where they negate 90% of the incomming physical damage simply by being out of melee range and thus rarely notice something is wrong.

The issue of broken mechanics are rarely adressed (densely packed stacks of mobs in ToEE) and rarely fixed(heroic abadishai having epic spellpower was fixed only after years of complaints).

What bothers many is how these hand crafted quests suddenly have their entire ballance chucked out of the window with what is called blanket coding.
Due to these champions, we now have random mobs with more hp, dps and general thoughnes then actual named npcs and bosses, wich is rather jarring for those who care about lore and ballance.
Another piece of blanket coding is reaper, with even more problems. Wich i'll skip here.

Lots of devs and players will defend champs here, not realising or not caring what the concequencesol of this lazy coding scheme are.
It doesn't only affect npcs( though they just fixed the bookbinder rescue), it affects the playerbase as a whole, dividing them even more.
At best you get advice on the forum like, play an arty or warlock, get more past lives and gear, etc not understanding that elite was just fine as it was.
Not unnderstanding that not every one plays like they do, not understanding that the dificulty just fine, a good investment of time in regards to tue rewards, exp, named loot and favor.

Sadly, the devs have publicly stated that they will not remove champs from n/h/e content now that they have introduced reaper. They seem to think that content is too easy. Even if they only play it on broken classes and in 1 case, heve to use cheat codes to get through quests on normal.

I can only suggest adapting or moving on, much of the playerbase allready has.
A few weeks afte launch and ravenloft is a ghost town over here.

What ever you decide, i wish you the best.

elvesunited
01-12-2018, 08:31 AM
I wouldn't get rid of champs, they do add to the game, but I think some tweaks would go a long way.

Probably the biggest:

Multi-shot caster champs should only process damage on the first hit
Shiradi caster of about 7% chance per effect per shot. Equipment like Lantern Rings have a short cooldown preventing them from processing on every hit. Champs with extra damage process on every hit. For a melee champ that's not that big a deal. For some spellcaster types that's instant death. ( particularly Demon Soul. ) The extra damage should only process on the first hit of a multi-hit attack.

Arch-Necromancer
01-13-2018, 05:58 AM
Why would you remove something if you can just make a selector in the Difficulty selection screen (like we have for Reaper skulls) that would give you a choice:

- Without champions
- With champions

For Hard and Elite.

Normal could also get champions (of the lowest tier) that way, because you would be able to select whether you want champions or not.

And "Without champions" should be the default selection because it better fits new players.

losian2
02-09-2018, 02:19 AM
I understand that the boost in difficulty may come as a shock after a long time away, but to be fair DDO was always supposed to be a group activity and Elite was always supposed to require a party.

In the time you were away there were a LOT of threads full of people complaining about how easy the game had become (admittedly down to power creep). Hence the first 'resolution' to this was champions.

People still kept complaining about how easy the game had become. Hence Reaper mode, so people could choose to play on an even harder difficulty setting (I'm not getting into the argument over whether any of this was effective or not - I'm just trying to update you on the history!).

There is also the case that gear got a lot better since you were away, so if you are playing old characters with old items you are going to be under the power curve.

Unfortunately, if you prefer to solo then the answer is probably just to go for Hard setting unless you can pull a party together. At least until you have a few past lives under your belt or acquired better gear.

I get that this mindset is super deep-set in DDO, but champions are, like it or not, not the best implemented system. I was looking on the forums to see if something is bugged - a level 13 elite random abishai, not even an orange named, is spamming 260+ damage delayed fireballs in heroic with a DC above 30. There is no "gear up" for that. Playing a character with evasion and +25 saves with cold shield and I'm still being one-shotted. For some reason the abishai also have crazy SR at heroic levels, so you can't really lock 'em down. A "group" does not solve this issue, because most anyone will be pretty much one shotted by such enemies at level - which is the problem, some enemies with champion buffs are just ridiculously over powered.

The champion system, in a perfect world, would have some kind of rough hardcaps by level ranges so that enemies can't be horrifically out of line with their content level. I'm also really surprised at how useless heroic level control-casters are without a crazy number of past lives against mobs with ANY SR. Heck, CR11 mobs somehow have 25+ SR, that just seems way out of whack. SR badly needs to move to a % based scaling system like AC, hands down.

Ryan220
02-09-2018, 05:03 AM
I am a fan of Champs (and Reaper) as they add challenge and uncertainty to the game. Admittedly I am fortunate enough to run with a group of people that I consider to be amongst the best on the server, but Champs and Reaper make us think about how we play and how we approach different fights instead of just face rolling everything.

That being said I can see how getting one shotted by champs when soloing or duoing or simply running undergeared characters can be frustrating.

As has been said before, I think making Champs optional would be a good idea.

I do feel that there would need to be a worthwhile benefit for those people that chose to run with the extra challenge of Champs otherwise it would be pointless having them.

Sunnie
02-09-2018, 08:02 AM
I wouldn't get rid of champs, they do add to the game, but I think some tweaks would go a long way.

Probably the biggest:

Multi-shot caster champs should only process damage on the first hit
Shiradi caster of about 7% chance per effect per shot. Equipment like Lantern Rings have a short cooldown preventing them from processing on every hit. Champs with extra damage process on every hit. For a melee champ that's not that big a deal. For some spellcaster types that's instant death. ( particularly Demon Soul. ) The extra damage should only process on the first hit of a multi-hit attack.
That's one change that really should be implemented. Another is that their procs should not go off on non-damaging spells, and especially not if you make your save. Disco Balls cast by certain champions deal damage to you every time you make your save against it, you can also evade a fireball and still get hit by a DoT effect. That's not challenge, that's just broken mechanics.
Champions really need an internal cooldown (0.5 seconds would do) on their DoT effects, and it needs to be limited to "on damage".

I've learned to manage, with a lot of shinies not everyone will have access to, but the mechanics behind how champions apply their bonus damage are obviously broken. Things can't possibly be working as intended when a champion caster kills the party with the spells Slow and Scare.

If the way champions inflict DoT were fixed, they'd be perfect.

C-Dog
02-09-2018, 01:14 PM
Getting your butt handed to you is never "fun".

The problem is, neither is a game where you win automatically. And in DDO, it's too easy to have a build that crushes Elite. Without champs - there would be zero challenge, so (imo) zero real "fun".

So you have to accept that the occasional unexpected wipe is "fun", if only b/c the alternative (never worrying about any unexpected enemy) would def not be.

If your toons can't handle some of the champs on Elite, then stick to Hard (no orange-crowns in Hard, only Yellow). Or build a better toon - mine are 1st life, and they can handle most champs. And when they can't, I have to be creative. That's fun.

And for the record, Reaper has its own level of Champs that can spawn - Red-crown. Now there's some "fun".

Shiriru
02-14-2018, 01:59 AM
I think champions are balanced for mid/late game, be it heroic or epic levels. Same with reapers.

What I find weird, is that lvl 3 champions and reapers hit you for 60-100 damage, whereas lvl 10 champions hit you for 80-110 .. basically almost the same thing, but at lvl 10 , players get access to more spells/skills, better gear and more HP. So I do not find these creatures properly implemented for lvl 2-5 quest ranges. I never complain about them, when I get past lvl 7ish... Even enjoy and can't wait to see one. But there is a clear message with the current numbers champions dish out, that early game is made for warlocks and repeaters. Also it's sad that grouping up is so hard nowadays.

Having said all of this, I always know the risk when I enter a low lvl reaper. I enjoy the challenge and thrill, but low level reaper quests are not properly balanced, especially for a game, where grouping up is so hard nowadays. So weird that a boss monster in a lvl 3 R1 quest hits you for 10 damage, but a champion and/or reaper does x10 times more.