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xenon211
12-15-2017, 11:25 PM
Streamlined and updated since originally posted.

This is one of my builds I am rotating through as I gather racial PL feats. As I have gathered more play time and experience it is obvious to me now that original idea, though workable, was definitely in need of improvements. I played through several lives and have arrived at something I am comfortable with and serves my purpose. This is of course Based on SavingSoul's work on battle clerics, and so a big thank you to him.

For reference:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/475893-Healers-are-Back!-Heals-and-Kills-3-Ultimate-Battle-Clerics

Goal: A fast heroic life for fvs or racial past life feat gain. Needed to be melee (god I hate playing casters, and ranged). I wanted it to be fast out of the gate and not a "late bloomer" like bloody AA or some other **** build. Needed to function well in r1-3 group play and easily and quickly solo any elite dungeon.

Well, this build does all that for me. It is not out dps'd by nearly anything till around 16 when it merely holds it own with the better dps machines out there. It plays rather like a barb but can also support heal, clean up the soulstones and heal everyone up after the big fights.

This is NOT a mainline healer or tank. It is a HEROIC dps machine that can toss spot heals. It is a bit squishy in reaper at lvl 9-11 and 16+ (which is fixed with GS displacement clickie, better play, and swapping to skirmisher at 18). It is not something you can wade into a big group with, like a monk. If you play alongside a tank, there is no real issue keeping them up with heals (provided they are built and equipped halfway well) and killing everything to boot. Without a tank, well it's like a barb, you take damage, but you are built to kill them before they kill you. Fortunately you have cure spells to heal up afterwards!

dps notes: lv 3 crits for 100, lv 6 - 200, lv 8 - 240, lv 12 - 300, lv 16 - 400, lv 18 - 450 (add 50% for helpless mobs).
At lv 8, 60+% DS (reaper ds boost) + Haste action boost + haste pot was killing 2k hp reaper dungeon bosses in 4 seconds or less (solo). Be careful in Dust in the vale, its easy to one shot spiders, by accident, even in reaper with your worst dagger at lv15. In epic levels you can easily hold your own but you are not gonna out do the kings. At end game? I have no clue, I have never spent more time than it takes to gather seeds and do an eTR/TR.

I removed cleave from the build. It is simply not needed. You get silly fast attack speed when boosted and have En Pointe from bard. Combine that with good dbl strike and you kill things faster doing it one at a time than with cleaves. Also, I wouldn't be found without en pointe in any of my swashie builds. I don't know if it is bugged or WAI but it is essentially a small aoe cleave that hits twice on multiple mobs (if they are grouped close). ie, for 10 sp you get a "cleave" that hits 2x on multiple mobs, at 2W and high DS chance, almost guaranteed to crit. Cleave is not needed.

This build requires:
+1 str tome. Well ok, not NEEDED but desirable as you would have to rob dex to pay one point into str, or put your level 4 stat into str. Please note that the skill points were laid out using a +6 tome. That means 20 less points to spend, easiest to eliminate if needed would be swimming and diplo which are in there for my personal preference more than anything.

The only feats with stat/skill prereq's is Power attack (13 str), and Balance for the SWF line (req 2 for SWF, iSWF 4, & gSWF 7) which means you have room to adjust stats to your preference. Perform 3 is needed for Inspire Courage song.

A bit more about the build:

You get your damage from Wisdom.

Fvs lv 2 feat: Knowledge of Battle: Your faith allows you to use your Wisdom bonus for to-hit and damage purposes with your deities' Favored Weapon if it is higher than your Strength bonus. This benefit only applies if your Favored Soul level is equal to or greater than half of your total Heroic Character level.

Most of your damage comes from static boosts:
Wisdom modifier (fvs knowledge of battle)
gSWF (+50% of the stat modifier to damage)
Divine Willpower: (50% of Wisdom mod added to damage)
Power Attack: +5
Dashing Scoundrel: +6
Deity Feats: +5 (Child of Vol, Beloved of Vol)
Specialization: +2
Vistani: +11
Blessed Blades: +10 (must hit target to activate)
Swashbuckling stance: +1
Bard song: +1
Deadly: depends on your level and if you have it slotted
There are a few other misc mods, guild buffs yada yada, but the upshot is it adds up to a LOT. At lv15 I had around +70 damage which stays at nearly that point to around 20 with switching to buckler and such.


Since the largest part of your damage is from static damage you get the option to select your weapons based on their special effects

At lv 6 I use a keen dagger, prior to that just a crafted double effect item.

I made a "Blinding Dagger of Everbright" lv8 for dealing with oozes and rust monsters. Killing them with a non-favored weapon is a pain in the butt by that time. Early on a muckbane or everbright weapon of nearly any kind is just fine.

You will need either a ghostly item or crafted ghost touch dagger. Blessed blades' "silver" and "ghostly" effects don't work if you miss your target and that is 50% on incorporeals. I like carrying a ghost touch of incorp bane for reapers and other ghosties.

Finally got my hands on an assassin's kiss dagger from ToEE ... oh wow is that nice. I used to use the barovian dagger at 10 or 11 but now assassin's kiss stays equipped most times until around 15 when mob health finally climbs enough for Dice's imp vorpal to make a real impact.

At lv 10 I use the ml10 RL dagger from "Into the Mists" for undeads.

Lv 15 I use Dice (ml14) almost exclesively.

At 20 I like Phiarlan spy dagger for the DC 25 paralyze and improved deception.

I have little in the way of daggers in mid 20s, Epic Slice at 28, morninglords at 29. But as I said I don't bother to play in epics too much.

With the recent changes to Red Fens loot (now BtA instead of BtC), farming up the gloves and bracers on a lv20 char before rolling this is really good idea. Vulkoor's Might set bonus: +3 artifact hit and damage. Also covers your str, con, and fortification for a while.

If you have the time, patience and the Slave Lords adv. pack, farming up a 5 pc set for Slave Lord's Might is also quite nice.
+1 artifact bonus to Strength and Dexterity
+2 artifact bonus to Melee Power/Ranged Power
+2 artifact bonus to Deadly

SL items I tend to use: Symbol (trink), Hide helm, Cloak, crafted shackles (boots), crafted neck (chains), crafted ring (5-rings), and crafted neck (chains).

That's enough to cover skills I want, stats needed, devotion, and leaves me a ring slot and body armor to finish out via cannith crafting or otherwise. I tend to use Quicksilver cassock for the easy run speed and melee alacrity till 12 when I swap to a cannith crafted Hamp/vitality/parrying/Good luck(augment) light armor.


This build benefits from past lives. Monk for damage, barb for health, pally for Hamp. It would take considerably less damage in heroic levels if I could be bothered to grind out epic lives for more AC/prr. Also anything that adds wisdom: Human and Aasimar rPL #2, completionist, and racial completionist.

It also greatly benefits from having reaper double strike action boost. Get it first, then fill in anything else as desired. The reaper DS is a BIG dps gain. Popping that in addition to haste AB and haste pot, simply melts anything that comes near you. Even if you do nothing but heal everyone through a dungeon, you can fire off that combo and ez-mode the boss at the end.


Favored Vistani Swashbuckler
13/4/3 Favored Soul/Fighter/Bard
Neutral Good Aasimar


Level Order

1. Bard. . . . . . 6. Bard . . . . . 11. Fighter . . . .16. Favored Soul
2. Favored Soul . .7. Favored Soul . 12. Fighter . . . .17. Favored Soul
3. Favored Soul . .8. Fighter . . . .13. Favored Soul. .18. Favored Soul
4. Bard. . . . . . 9. Favored Soul. .14. Favored Soul. .19. Favored Soul
5. Favored Soul . 10. Favored Soul . 15. Fighter . . . .20. Favored Soul


Stats
. . . . . . . .28pt . . 32pt. . .34pt . . 36pt. . .Tome. . .Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .---- . . ----. . .---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 12. . . .13 . . . 12. . . .12 . . . +6 . . . 4: WIS
Dexterity . . . 10. . . .10 . . . 10. . . .10 . . . +6 . . . 8: WIS
Constitution. . 14. . . .14 . . . 14. . . .14 . . . +6 . . .12: WIS
Intelligence. . 14. . . .14 . . . 14. . . .14 . . . +6 . . .16: WIS
Wisdom. . . . . 18. . . .19 . . . 20. . . .20 . . . +6 . . .20: WIS
Charisma. . . . .8. . . . 8 . . . .8. . . .10 . . . +6 . . .24: WIS
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28: WIS

Skills
. . . . .Bd Fv Fv Bd Fv Bd Fv Fi Fv Fv Fi Fi Fv Fv Fi Fv Fv Fv Fv Fv
. . . . . 1 .2 .3 .4. 5. 6 .7 .8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Concent . 4 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1 .1 . . 2. 1. . . . 2. 1. . .2 .2 .1 .1 .1 .23
Heal. . . 2 .2 .2 .1. 1. 1 .1 . . 1. 2. . . . 1. 2. . .1 .2 .2 .1 .1 .23
Diplo . . 4 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1 .1 . . 1. 1. . . . 1. 1. . .2 .1 .2 .2 .2 .23
UMD . . . 4 . . . .2. 1. 2 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1 .1. 1. 1. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
Swim. . . . . . . . . . . . . .2. . . . 4 .4. . . . 5 . . . . . . . . 15
Jump. . . 4 .1 .1 .1. . .1. 1. 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1 .1 .13
Balance . 4 . . . .2. . .2. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .8
Perform . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
Tumble. . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .32 .5 .5 .9. 5. 9 .6 .6. 6. 6. 6 .6. 6. 6. 7 .7 .7 .7 .7 .7


Feats

.1. . . . : Single Weapon Fighting
.3. . . . : Weapon Focus: Piercing
.6. . . . : Power Attack
.8 Fighter: Improved Single Weapon Fighting
.9. . . . : Empower Healing Spell
11 Fighter: Improved Critical: Piercing
12. . . . : Shield Mastery
15. . . . : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
15 Fighter: Weapon Specialization: Piercing
18. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Quicken Spell
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic . : Great Ability: Wisdom
30 Legend : Scion of: Astral Plane

.1 Aasimar: Bond of the Fallen

.3 FavSoul: Knowledge of Battle
13 FavSoul: Stout of Heart

.9 FavSoul: Energy Absorption: Fire
17 FavSoul: Energy Absorption: Electricity

.2 Deity. : Follower of: The Blood of Vol
10 Deity. : The Blood is The Life


Spells

Favored Soul Nightshield, Divine Favor, Bless, Shield of Faith
Soundburst, Cure Moderate Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Hold Person
Cure Serious Wounds, Magic Circle Against Evil, Mass Aid, Dispel Magic
Cure Critical Wounds, Death Ward, Mass Shield of Faith, Freedom of Movement
Raise Dead, Protection from Elements, True Seeing
Heal, Mass Cure Moderate Wounds
Bard Expeditious Retreat, Sonic Blast, Cure Light Wounds

Enhancements (80 AP)

Vistani Knife Fighter (41 AP) Knife Expertise, Knife Juggler, Knife Specialist, One With Blades, Vistani Fortune, Knife Master Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker, Rapid Attack
Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker, Haste Boost III
Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker, Deadly Blades, Wisdom
Vistani Knife Training, Celerity, Mist Stalker, Wisdom
Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker, Blessed Blades, Vendetta
Stalwart Defender (13 AP) Toughness, Stalwart Defense Resilient Defense III, Stalwart Defensive Mastery II
Durable Defense III
Tenacious Defense III
Swashbuckler (11 AP) Confidence, Swashbuckling On Your Toes III, Limber Up II
En Pointe III
Skirmisher
Kensei (7 AP) Kensei Focus: Light Blades Extra Action Boost I, Weapon Group Specialization
Weapon Group Specialization
War Soul (4 AP) Smite Foe Divine Will III
Aasimar (3 AP) Stronger Bonds True Resilience I, Improved Recovery
Warchanter (1 AP) Skaldic: Constitution
Leveling Guide Aas0 Stronger Bonds; Vis0 Knife Expertise; Vis1 Rapid Attack
WS0 Smite Foe; WS1 Divine Will I, II, III
Swa0 Confidence; Swa1 On Your Toes I, II, III
Swa1 Limber Up I; Swa2 En Pointe I, II, III
Swa1 Limber Up II; Vis1 Vistani Knife Training; (Bank 2 AP)
Swa0 Swashbuckling; Swa3 Dashing Scoundrel; Vis1 Undead Hunter; Vis2 Haste Boost I, II, III
Vis2 Vistani Knife Training; Vis0 Knife Juggler; Vis0 Knife Specialist
Vis3 Vistani Knife Training; Vis3 Deadly Blades
Vis1 Mist Stalker; Vis2 Mist Stalker
Vis3 Mist Stalker; Vis4 Mist Stalker
Vis4 Single Dagger; Vis4 Celerity; Ken0 Kensei Focus: Light Blades
Vis4 Vistani Knife Training; Vis3 Wisdom
Vis5 Blessed Blades; Vis5 Vistani Knife Training
Vis5 Mist Stalker; Vis5 Vendetta
Ken1 Weapon Group Specialization; Ken1 Extra Action Boost I
Ken2 Weapon Group Specialization; Ken2 Ascetic Training: Conditioning I, II
Ken2 Ascetic Training: Conditioning III; Ken3 Weapon Group Specialization; SD0 Toughness

Destiny (24 AP)

Divine Crusader Bane of Undeath, Interrogation, Purge the Wicked
Consecration III, Flames of Purity III
Sacred Ground
No Regret, Crusade
Castigation, Heavenly Presence, Celestial Champion
Strike Down
Twists of Fate (22 fate points) Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
Imp. Power Attack (Tier 2 Dreadnought)
Unearthly Reactions (Tier 1 Magister)


There is a lot of flexibility in twists depending on how you prefer to run.

I tried to list the spells in the order I ended up taking them.

Enhancements: the enhancements are the final lv 20 version and differ from the leveling enhancements a bit. I think I got the order right in how I took them (leveling guide).

Of note: at 18 I drop all points out of Kensei to get stalwart defender as listed in the enhancements section. Following that I re-level Kensei to final enhancement listing.

-Kassallana, Orien

Edit: got Assassin's Kiss so had to change my dagger notes. Added some lv7 & 8 gear options.

Shadowmuff1n
12-17-2017, 10:08 PM
Hey, thanks for posting this. I'll likely ending up using it in the near future. I'll let you know how it goes :)

Hjarki
12-21-2017, 10:27 PM
I think you might be better served by going 12/1/7 rather than 13/4/3, Charisma rather than Wisdom based like so:

Remove Weapon Focus: Piercing, Weapon Specialization
Scion: Plane of Water -> Scion: Feywild
(2 Feats - you have plenty of ‘fluff’) -> Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery

Enhancements:
Vistani: same

Swashbuckler(23): Confidence, Swashbuckling, Uncanny Dodge
1: On Your Toes, Tavern Shanties II
2: En Pointe
3: Skirmisher, Resonant Arms, Charisma
4: Low Blow, Charisma

Warchanter(1): Skaldic Constitution

War Soul (15): Smite Foe, Resilience of Battle, Sanctuary
1: Divine Presence, Righteous Weapons
2: Wall of Steel, Righteous Weapons
3: Charisma

Twist of Fate: Improved Power Attack -> Legendary Shield Mastery


You lose a few FvS spells (although not a spell level) and gain Haste/Displacement. You get better defense and equivalent offense. You get usable Bard songs (inasmuch as Fascinate is useful) as well as a melee-range knockdown. You also gain a lot more skills. This does eliminate Ameliorating Strike, but without offensive casting there's plenty of SP for healing - especially since you won't need nearly as much self-healing with the additional defense.

xenon211
12-22-2017, 03:04 PM
Hmm, that looks interesting Hjarki. A loss of around 14? flat damage (spec, RWx2, inflame, dashing scoundrel) but yeah looks like it should be made up for in double strike and defenses. I have a couple displacement clickies, but the spell is handy to have esp with that load of spell points and extend to boot.

Been stashing away builds to rotate through for when I finally get to grinding on racial PL's. Those changes will be given a nice test run at some point in the not-too-distant future. Thx!

Hjarki
12-22-2017, 11:29 PM
Hmm, that looks interesting Hjarki. A loss of around 14? flat damage (spec, RWx2, inflame, dashing scoundrel) but yeah looks like it should be made up for in double strike and defenses. I have a couple displacement clickies, but the spell is handy to have esp with that load of spell points and extend to boot.

I just threw together those suggestions quickly, but it might help to think about the options step-by-step:

1. 3 Bard/4 Fighter vs. 6 Bard/1 Fighter. We'll lose Weapon Focus/Specialization, thus we're down +1/+2 and 12 hit points. In exchange, we get +6% Dodge, +1% Doublestrike, +1 Damage, the Uncanny Dodge cooldown, +12 skill points (with decent skill access), a smattering of admittedly weak Bard spells and some trifling amount of spell points. You do have to find 1 AP somewhere, but otherwise your build is unchanged. I think this is a no-brainer tradeoff.

2. Skirmisher vs. Scoundrel. At low levels, Scoundrel is better. Once you've got Legendary Shield Mastery, it's 15% doublestrike, 5 PRR, +10% Dodge vs. 10% doublestrike, +6 damage - as well as an extra equipment slot. You do have to dredge up two feats from somewhere, but Power Critical is an obvious choice and you've got any number of other 'meh' feats you can switch over. Arguably, you can delay taking Shield Mastery/Improved Shield Mastery until Epic levels and just run with Scoundrel in heroic.

3. Fiddling with levels. 13 FvS isn't much better than 12 FvS. 7 Bard gives you 3rd level spells. 2 Fighter would give you an extra feat over 1 Fighter. 1 Wizard instead of 1 Fighter would lose you 6 hit points, be feat neutral (for this build) and allow you to spend 1 AP for a 12 sec cooldown Cleave and +1% Doublestrike.

4. Fiddling with enhancements. This is where you can get into all sorts of debates about what kinds of tradeoffs you want to make - up to this point, we're just sticking with what you originally had (possibly having to shift an AP or two). But going with a deeper investment in Bard gives you a lot of options for tinkering that you didn't have. Consider War Soul. You've got 27 points in it. The absolute minimum is going to be 4 points (Divine Presence). If we threw those 23 points into Warchanter, we could end up at Reckless Chant (+6% doublestrike/shot, +6% spellpower for group). On the way, we'd get +2 Inspire Courage damage, +1 from Enchant Weapons, +1d6 Cold damage, +45 positive spellpower, and some defensive benefits. Is it better? I'm not sure. However, it's certainly an interesting question to explore. Likewise, there might be some build that makes Coup de Grace practical.

cru121
12-23-2017, 02:25 AM
some tests here on the forums indicated that bucklers don't work with the Vistani enhancement that requires SWF.

xenon211
12-23-2017, 01:03 PM
some tests here on the forums indicated that bucklers don't work with the Vistani enhancement that requires SWF.

That would stink losing the 20 melee power. I might still try the buckler variant w/o it

Hjarki:

1. no argument there.

2. Power critical and cleave are the easy ones to drop. I like the cleave in heroics though so swapping it at 20 is probably the easiest. Running in DC gives Strike Down which is much better anyhow, and by then I just don't have a need for more than the one cleave.

3. Don't need the cleave.

4. The only way Coup de Grace would be better than t5 Vistani is if a) you didn't use daggers, or b) played a bard.

jester105
03-30-2018, 04:40 PM
Has anyone confirmed if bucklers work with knife fighter table?

adrian69
03-31-2018, 12:04 AM
Has anyone confirmed if bucklers work with knife fighter table?

Yes I have confirmed that only rune arms work with VKF while SWF to gain the +20 MP atm. However, there is a chance this could be ninja fixed in u38 since the player population hasn't made it a huge deal yet, at least that I've seen. It didn't cross my mind to check the build in Lamma when it was up though.

Revolted
03-31-2018, 06:18 AM
I've been thinking about a fvs/bard split for some time now, here I leave you a couple of notes:

1 - The reason for taking FVS is basically bonus to HP, a bonus to the DPS of the Daggers (picking Blood of Vol), and the access to Heal spell, as well as other healing and some CC. And don't forget about Divine Power, for the increment of BAB
2 - On the other hand there's no reason to go Human, go Aasimar instead and you get +2 to Wis, or Dragonborn, if you decide to go Cha based, instead of an extra freat, which you wont need.
3 - Bonus to critical hits from SB are competence as are the ones you'll get from Vistani, so not stacking. <---- Sad. That alone makes a split fvs/bard way weaker than it should be.
4 - War Soul enhancements are quite weak, compared to the alternatives. You go 4 lvls of fighter, so you can go Stalwart and get a major bonus to your HP/defenses, or you can go kensai for a bonus on dps higher than what you'd get from war soul. Also if you drop 1 lvl of FVS to bard that would open the warchanter +6 DS bonus . You really just want war soul for Divine Might.
5 - Extend Spell can be droped for GCleave, way more useful.
6 - I'd also drop the Fighter feats (weap spec et al) if you're not using the Kensai line. 2MP doesn't make a difference, and there's better stuff to use.

DennyThray
04-09-2018, 01:32 AM
Has anyone experimented to see if you can use a buckler with Swashbuckler and have the +20 attack power enhancement factor in? Would love to use this build, but you probably might as well go with a dual wield version until it gets fixed. It probably won't be too hard to convert the build to a dual dagger version.

unbongwah
04-09-2018, 08:52 AM
Has anyone experimented to see if you can use a buckler with Swashbuckler and have the +20 attack power enhancement factor in?
Single Dagger currently does NOT work with Skirmisher. :( I've seen no official word on whether that's WAI.

DennyThray
04-11-2018, 11:30 AM
That stinks. So, either go dual dagger (which would involve a stats and feat revamp), or go with the original build and deal with having nothing in your off-hand. Either way is probably fine.

Whitering
04-13-2018, 06:25 PM
That stinks. So, either go dual dagger (which would involve a stats and feat revamp), or go with the original build and deal with having nothing in your off-hand. Either way is probably fine.

I think orbs don't count for wrecking single weapon fighting, but I could be wrong. There's not really any melee orbs but since you cast spells many of them would save you an item slot of stats.

DennyThray
04-13-2018, 09:30 PM
I think orbs don't count for wrecking single weapon fighting, but I could be wrong. There's not really any melee orbs but since you cast spells many of them would save you an item slot of stats.

Currently, for the specific Vistani Single Dagger enhancement that gives you +20 Attack power, the only thing you can have in your off-hand for it to count is a rune-arm. An Orb, or a Buckler+Skirmisher, doesn't cut it. It's unclear if this is a bug or WAI.

Kadrios
04-15-2018, 07:25 PM
It's entirely possible that I've missed it, but I noticed the OP saying that the build uses wisdom as the to hit and damage stat, but I can't for the life of me see anything that grants that. What am I missing?

Matuse
04-15-2018, 08:37 PM
Favored Souls can choose between either Charisma or Wisdom giving their hit/dam if they are using the weapon favored by their deity. Vol likes daggers.

M0rdecai_QC
04-15-2018, 08:43 PM
It's entirely possible that I've missed it, but I noticed the OP saying that the build uses wisdom as the to hit and damage stat, but I can't for the life of me see anything that grants that. What am I missing?
At Favored Soul level 2, you get to choose one of:

Knowledge of Battle: Your faith allows you to use your Wisdom bonus for to-hit and damage purposes with your deities' Favored Weapon if it is higher than your Strength bonus. This benefit only applies if your Favored Soul level is equal to or greater than half of your total Heroic Character level.
Grace of Battle: Your faith allows you to use your Charisma bonus for to-hit and damage purposes with your deities' Favored Weapon if it is higher than your Strength bonus. This benefit only applies if your Favored Soul level is equal to or greater than half of your total Heroic Character level.

xenon211
04-24-2018, 04:23 PM
Well, I have added a dozen or so PL's since I posted this. Mostly racial tr's and a couple class completions. Still don't have my druid PL for completionist. Ran most of the lives in low reaper, mostly for the xp boost to finish heroic lives quicker. I've run variations of this build based on suggestions in the thread as well as my own thoughts and streamlined it into a build that I like and have added to my play rotation in pursuit of racial completionist.

Going to update the original post.

Changes:
race: Aasimar

skills: dropped spellcraft entirely (play-style)
maxed diplomacy

feats: dropped cleave ... simply not needed, just slows the killing down
dropped extend spell and power critical (luxury feats)
moved empower heal later to where it's needed and dropped quicken till 24 (again, play style choice)
added in shield mastery and improved shield mastery for enhancement swap at 18 where it is definitely needed
Scion change to Astral (dodge,DS, ref save), mitigates some of my boneheaded play from monk habits

enhancements: dropped Warsoul tree to 4 AP for Divine Will only
moved the saved AP into a mix of kensei for a bit of damage, stalwart Defender for Health and a point to skald for con (to balance the one from reaper core) and the balance into aasimar.

I tried out a pure skirmisher variation from 6-20. It felt gimped and survivability is not boosted that much early on. I have tried the 1 ftr, 7 bard thing, also did not like it. By the time you get displacement you basically don't need it since you have enough healing. Tried to make a charisma based variation and I guess I just don't see the point as you trash both your Reflex AND will saves unless you waste a feat to use charisma for will saves. I can heal through most reflex save damage issues but being held is a sure way to die.

For this build, wisdom simply works.

DennyThray
04-25-2018, 05:12 PM
Update 38, Patch 1 notes:

"Vistani Knife Fighter's Single Dagger ability now properly works in any combat situation where you count as Single Weapon Fighting and are wielding a dagger. This ability now requires the Single Weapon Fighting Feat."

This seems like it means that we can go Skirmisher now. That's pretty cool.

unbongwah
04-26-2018, 10:28 AM
Yeah, can anyone confirm that Single Dagger now works with Skirmisher? And orbs, for that matter: IIRC those were bugged too.

Rauven
04-26-2018, 10:38 AM
"Vistani Knife Fighter's Single Dagger ability now properly works in any combat situation where you count as Single Weapon Fighting and are wielding a dagger. This ability now requires the Single Weapon Fighting Feat."

This means that i can use vistani + SWF + orbs?

Thanks in advance.

Yes!

I don't know about Skirmisher, I would assume yes but as we've learned assuming is usually a poor bet, but according to Steel orbs are a yes.


More from Steel.



Does this mean Swashbucklers using Skirmisher can do the same?

If you're actively getting the other benefits of Single Weapon Fighting (a feat which you have), and are wielding a Dagger, you should now be getting this.

Since Skirmisher lets you wield a Buckler and qualify for Single Weapon Fighting: Yes.

Haphazarduk
04-27-2018, 06:37 AM
How do you think this compares to a similar build with twf? Is Swf adding that much or is it more a matter of preference and giving access to StD defensive stance? The reason I ask is that I'm looking at something similar but using twf and ranger or monk instead of bard. I really like en pointe as well though. That's a major reason to take bard on its own (but less good with daggers than picks or other x4 weapons).

Hap

unbongwah
04-27-2018, 09:38 AM
The reason I ask is that I'm looking at something similar but using twf and ranger or monk instead of bard.
The issue with Tempest / Vistani builds IMO is the AP constraints: 41 APs for Vistani capstone plus ~38 APs for tier-5 Tempest enhancements leaves very little for other trees. You could skip tier-5 Tempest and take Vistani's instead, of course; but then you're missing out on the best bits of being a Tempest (i.e., Dual Perfection+Dance of Death+Thousand Cuts). Likewise you could drop the Vistani capstone to save some APs; but +5% attack speed +20 Melee Power is a lot of DPS to give up.

Whereas the bard 3 / ftr 3 combo provides a lot of offensive and defensive benefits for only 24 APs, leaving more room for tweaking.

Monk-based Vistani FvS should be fine, though; maybe monk 6 / FvS 12 to start for Shadow Veil + Heal spell? Or FvS 17 / monk 3 if you'd rather have Leap of Faith than Shadow Veil.

Haphazarduk
04-27-2018, 10:41 AM
I guess much comes down to how much dps you lose from not taking swf and not having dual perfection.

There are a few benefits with not using bard - either heavy armor for more prr or monk for evasion. Swashbuckling has an elegant synergy to it though and I like that.

I was thinking of FvS13/Pal4/Rgr3 using Chr. Saves will be great, prr will be good but dps might not quite keep up and requires investment into dex for twf. Smites could help but not sure about enough APs. Will take a look.

Hap

unbongwah
04-27-2018, 11:44 AM
I was thinking of FvS13/Pal4/Rgr3 using Chr.
In that case, what's the rgr splash for? You don't need DEX to-hit/dmg if going with Grace of Battle. Offhand procs gain nothing past 100%, so once you have GTWF+Vistani Double Dagger, the Tempest core doesn't help. You gain TWF free, but this isn't really a feat-starved build. You gain access to tier-3 rgr enhancements, but they're all sorta blah IMO.

xenon211
04-27-2018, 02:17 PM
The main reason I do swf instead of twf in any build is simply that I don't like the twf animations. Imo, they just stink and it's painful to sit through 15, 20, or god forbid ... 30! levels of that.

How does it compare to twf? I'm not entirely sure. I play alongside a wide variety of builds but I can't speak to how well they are built or geared as I mainly pug. I don't have a static group to play with since most groups are just too slow for me. The ones that are faster drown themselves in xp pots and I am not going to spend my points on those. When I am able to play alongside those players I have found to be some of the best I have played with, I hold my own. The ones that keep up best are the fully tricked out THF barbs, the very occasional wolf, tricked out sorcs that play almost nothing else, and around 16+ it can be a struggle to keep ahead of the insta kill wizard builds (the point where mobs finally take more than 2 crits to kill). I have not had any trouble beating out any twf build I have come across (at any heroic level), but that is my personal experience, grain of salt and all that.

I love the added health from stalwart, it's not huge, but it did put me at 900 health at lv 18 last life, and a lil over 1k in reaper. I would find it difficult to give that up. It is annoying though that they haven't fixed the Fvs hp loss on zoning issue (esp so in reaper mirror). Maintenance heals after fights is not bad, I use a triple Hamp GS kama to quickly regain health. Scroll healing stinks though since I wasn't about to waste 13 points in AoV to get W/S mastery. Maybe next life I will try gnome, my 4 racial points would give me that at lv 1. Aasimars' healing hands (scales with wisdom) is really nice. Oh well, many races left to do, can't keep it forever.

I tr'd into my default monk build, and I have to say that this is the first time I have been annoyed at monk in heroic levels. I have always found it to be an easy heroic life, very survivable and good dps. Only this time it has felt so slow. Maybe the loss of melee power is hitting harder than I thought. Still feels like slamming the brakes after last life.

Guess I need to hit 20, grind out some more heroic slavers mats and make a dedicated set for swashing because I can't stand slow heroic lives. I'll leave the late-bloomer builds for iconics. Will have to take a look at bucklers too and see if there is anything interesting for 12+ or if I will need to craft one. Iirc, there isn't much interesting to craft onto shields that I don't have covered already.

Matuse
04-27-2018, 03:40 PM
The interesting buckler for SWF is Van Richten's Cane. Or the one from Crystal Cove.

Haphazarduk
04-28-2018, 04:25 AM
In that case, what's the rgr splash for? You don't need DEX to-hit/dmg if going with Grace of Battle. Offhand procs gain nothing past 100%, so once you have GTWF+Vistani Double Dagger, the Tempest core doesn't help. You gain TWF free, but this isn't really a feat-starved build. You gain access to tier-3 rgr enhancements, but they're all sorta blah IMO.

Thats a good point on offhand procs although was also thinking of the prr from elaborate parry and increased deflect arrows rate.

Hmm FvS17/Pal3 seems quite tempting actually giving access to Leap of Faith and 8th lvl spells....

Hap

unbongwah
04-28-2018, 04:34 PM
Thats a good point on offhand procs although was also thinking of the prr from elaborate parry and increased deflect arrows rate.
You can take Improved Defense on any ranger splash; however you only get the increase to Deflect Arrows if you have the feat, which your proposed split doesn't get. [On a regular ranger you get it from lvl 12 Tempest core.] And Vanguard's Missile Shield only works with a shield equipped, so that's not an option for a TWF build either.

Hjarki
04-28-2018, 08:48 PM
You can take Improved Defense on any ranger splash; however you only get the increase to Deflect Arrows if you have the feat, which your proposed split doesn't get. [On a regular ranger you get it from lvl 12 Tempest core.] And Vanguard's Missile Shield only works with a shield equipped, so that's not an option for a TWF build either.

VKF provides Deflect Arrows with the second core, so unless I've lost the thread of conversation, I believe he will have the feat.

In any case, I think the general approach of TWF is going to work less effectively than SWF here. Some considerations:
1. Doublestrike strongly favors SWF. While there are some examples of off-hand Doublestrike, the overwhelming majority of Doublestrike is main-hand only and thus works poorly for TWF builds.
2. TWF splits 1.5x stat over both weapons rather than focusing it on one. This creates a situation where unless you can get more of your stat on the weapons (T5 Tempest), you really need to swamp your basic stat damage with other forms of damage (such as Sneak Attack) to counterbalance the disparity.
3. SWF vorpals more often than TWF under any reasonable circumstances. For Daggers, SWF will average +15 more damage (assuming you're not auto-killing) per attack over TWF. When you add in additional vorpal abilities (such as Bleeding Cuts, Reign or Fury Eternal), the gap grows even larger. If someone can figure out how to use Balanced Attacks while SWF...
4. SWF works better with non-physical stats. You can SWF with either Charisma or Intelligence to stack hit, damage, a save and a Divine Might ability all on the same stat. That means any caster-style build except for Clerics and Druids can take their primary casting stat and transform it into a effective SWF stat. In contrast, TWF only works with Intelligence in this fashion - and two of the three Intelligence classes already have combat styles effectively determined by their enhancement trees (Artificers, Rogues).
5. SWF requires a much smaller AP/level investment (but higher feat investment). With 3 levels in Bard and ~14 AP, you can get most of what you need for a highly effective SWF. On the other hand, for TWF, you generally need to take T5 (30+ AP, 5+ levels) in a class that explicitly favors it. This tends to mean that unless you're heavily invested in Assassin, Tempest or Shintao - to the point where it's the primary focus of your character - you're probably better off taking those 3 levels in Bard for SWF.
6. If you're willing to commit slightly more, you can get massive defensive bonuses with SWF that are substantially better than TWF.

If we toss out consideration of primarily melee builds (Fighters, Paladins, Monks, Barbarians all have combat styles largely set by their choice of enhancement trees) and just think about the casters/specialists:
Artificer: SWF is the clear winner here due to Rune-arms and lack of any support for TWF.
Bard: Obviously SWF.
Cleric: Offensive casting Clerics can't realistically melee. For pure support/healing Clerics, SWF wins for any non-Iconic and THF is likely the best choice for Iconic.
Druid: Unless your goal is to somehow melee with Flame Blades in Elemental Form, there's no winner here.
Favored Soul: What we're talking about now. I'd argue for SWF again - you can pile all of your focus into a single stat (Charisma), dump stat Strength/Wisdom/Intelligence, and spend only 3 levels/~14 AP to get full-fledged offense.
Rogue: You'll have TWF, Ranged or THF depending on the tree you select (that being said, I've actually got a Rogue 'tank' with SWF, but it's definitely an outlier).
Sorcerer/Warlock: The same issue confronting FvS - you can stat stack on your DC stat (Charisma) with SWF. You can't with TWF.
Wizard: TWF is a possibility here (since you can use Harper to get around the stat issue). That being said, you're still faced with 3 levels of Bard vs. 5+ levels of Ranger/Rogue/Monk. Couple this with the fact that EK is a S&B tree and Spellsinger is one of the best caster trees around - I'm not seeing much incentive to go with TWF.

For VKF in particular, I find SWF works better because it permits T5/Capstone VKF if desired, benefits from Doublestrike/Vorpal effects more and gains +20 melee power at T4 rather than +5% attack speed at Capstone.

That being said, I'm very skeptical of most spellcaster 'melee' builds because while I understand the impulse behind them, what they tend to accomplish is little more than minimizing what the spellcaster is good at in favor of delivering melee damage sufficiently mediocre that most groups would prefer they not risk going into melee.

Haphazarduk
04-29-2018, 05:59 AM
VKF provides Deflect Arrows with the second core, so unless I've lost the thread of conversation, I believe he will have the feat.

In any case, I think the general approach of TWF is going to work less effectively than SWF here.


You may well be right but, as usual, my imp of the perverse looks for good ideas (like this one) and seeks to adapt it, change it and/or improve it (although I'm not really looking for a direct power comparison which I think its mainly pointless). A few tests also suggest its not quite as clear cut as you might think.



Some considerations:
1. Doublestrike strongly favors SWF. While there are some examples of off-hand Doublestrike, the overwhelming majority of Doublestrike is main-hand only and thus works poorly for TWF builds.


Yes, DS does favour swf over twf although there is offhand ds in the vistani tree and ptwf offers a chunk. Having said that I think the real issue here is the 15% ds that comes from the shield mastery feats. Can't see any immediate way of making that up other than including monk levels.



2. TWF splits 1.5x stat over both weapons rather than focusing it on one. This creates a situation where unless you can get more of your stat on the weapons (T5 Tempest), you really need to swamp your basic stat damage with other forms of damage (such as Sneak Attack) to counterbalance the disparity.


Yes, largely true but the non stat damage effects are better like you say which helps make up for that. The basic formula (bear with me) is 1.3*(X+1.5Y) for swf and 2.1* (X+0.75Y) so stat damage (y) is 1.95 on swf v's 1.575 on twf whilst non-stat damage (x) is 1.3 on swf v's 2.1 on twf. One downside is you need two good daggers for twf.



3. SWF vorpals more often than TWF under any reasonable circumstances. For Daggers, SWF will average +15 more damage (assuming you're not auto-killing) per attack over TWF. When you add in additional vorpal abilities (such as Bleeding Cuts, Reign or Fury Eternal), the gap grows even larger. If someone can figure out how to use Balanced Attacks while SWF...


Once you get PSWF yes but until then twf wins out and delivers more crits on average I think.



4. SWF works better with non-physical stats. You can SWF with either Charisma or Intelligence to stack hit, damage, a save and a Divine Might ability all on the same stat. That means any caster-style build except for Clerics and Druids can take their primary casting stat and transform it into a effective SWF stat. In contrast, TWF only works with Intelligence in this fashion - and two of the three Intelligence classes already have combat styles effectively determined by their enhancement trees (Artificers, Rogues).


These builds are predicated on Grace or Knowledge of battle with Vol so works for any weapon style. The same holds true for twf using Charisma (or Wisdom) if the build is primarily using FvS.



5. SWF requires a much smaller AP/level investment (but higher feat investment). With 3 levels in Bard and ~14 AP, you can get most of what you need for a highly effective SWF. On the other hand, for TWF, you generally need to take T5 (30+ AP, 5+ levels) in a class that explicitly favors it. This tends to mean that unless you're heavily invested in Assassin, Tempest or Shintao - to the point where it's the primary focus of your character - you're probably better off taking those 3 levels in Bard for SWF.


Again, not so sure about this. You actually need the same amount of feats but you *don't* need to pay AP in the same way for twf as much of that is invested in the vistani tree. Swashbuckler (specifially rather than swf) does have some nice other benefits though so those APs are well spent.

6. If you're willing to commit slightly more, you can get massive defensive bonuses with SWF that are substantially better than TWF.
The build I'm looking at (probably FvS17/Pal3) doesn't need to keep to light armour so gets a prr boost of around 20 at full BAB, gets good saves (from Paladin) and actually has some spare APs for other defences. I should post it though - no good saying that without showing it.



Druid: Unless your goal is to somehow melee with Flame Blades in Elemental Form, there's no winner here.


I don't think this one is either swf or twf but there's a faor amount of str in animal forms so a wolf build with vistani is possible. I did a short test and most of the boosts from vistani carry through to animal form and the test I did was pretty effective albeit only at 7th.


Favored Soul: What we're talking about now. I'd argue for SWF again - you can pile all of your focus into a single stat (Charisma), dump stat Strength/Wisdom/Intelligence, and spend only 3 levels/~14 AP to get full-fledged offense


Yes, I like the charisma approach. Allows for good UMD and Intimidate as well.



For VKF in particular, I find SWF works better because it permits T5/Capstone VKF if desired, benefits from Doublestrike/Vorpal effects more and gains +20 melee power at T4 rather than +5% attack speed at Capstone.


I think that +5% attack speed is a modest but noticeable boost.



That being said, I'm very skeptical of most spellcaster 'melee' builds because while I understand the impulse behind them, what they tend to accomplish is little more than minimizing what the spellcaster is good at in favor of delivering melee damage sufficiently mediocre that most groups would prefer they not risk going into melee.

Ultimately you might be right but its fun trying!

Hap

xenon211
04-29-2018, 12:13 PM
I guess my question to Hap, is: how are you going to deal with groups of mobs? That is going to be your major bottleneck, imo. Without Dance of Death or En pointe, I am concerned that your twf would play rather like an archer that never even gets IPS. Are you going to count on cleaves?

I can't stress enough just how powerful En Pointe can be for kill speed, and you won't have it as twf. It is easily one of the most powerful melee abilities in heroic levels. Garls tomb for example: If your dps is slow, those gargs go into their stoneform heal mode thing they are hard to kill at low level (as melee). I have often killed 4 or 5 of them outright, in a single en pointe attack leaving me with 1 - 2 seconds of misc cleanup attacks, ezpz free chest. Yes it is an optional and all that, but I like using it as a dps check for my chars.

I'd be interested in hearing how it goes though if you do try it. Let us know what you like and dislike in it if you play it.

Haphazarduk
04-29-2018, 01:51 PM
I guess my question to Hap, is: how are you going to deal with groups of mobs? That is going to be your major bottleneck, imo. Without Dance of Death or En pointe, I am concerned that your twf would play rather like an archer that never even gets IPS. Are you going to count on cleaves?

I can't stress enough just how powerful En Pointe can be for kill speed, and you won't have it as twf. It is easily one of the most powerful melee abilities in heroic levels. Garls tomb for example: If your dps is slow, those gargs go into their stoneform heal mode thing they are hard to kill at low level (as melee). I have often killed 4 or 5 of them outright, in a single en pointe attack leaving me with 1 - 2 seconds of misc cleanup attacks, ezpz free chest. Yes it is an optional and all that, but I like using it as a dps check for my chars.

I'd be interested in hearing how it goes though if you do try it. Let us know what you like and dislike in it if you play it.

Yes probably cleaves, possibly exalted ones if I can afford the APs into KotC, maybe even the odd Flame Strike or BB, oh and Fan of Knives is actually pretty good at low and mid levels. I find en pointe strong as well although I haven't noticed a workable AOE on it. Will have to take another look. My secret favourite of SB is the double size crit bonus of Blow by Blow for ranged. That's where I started with this. Was going to try to make a build that worked for both dagger and throwing dagger (so would probably be SB) but went around in circles a bit on the damage stat.

I think I'll try something with Vistani, if its anything like what I'm currently thinking or relevant to your build I'll let you know how I get on.

Cheers

Hap

Hjarki
04-29-2018, 03:40 PM
Once you get PSWF yes but until then twf wins out and delivers more crits on average I think.

As a general rule, SWF is really only an 'endgame' build - at least how most people do it - because you're depending on two epic-level abilities (Legendary Shield Mastery and Perfect Single Weapon Fighting) to tilt the balance. In purely heroic levels, it's less attractive.


Again, not so sure about this. You actually need the same amount of feats but you *don't* need to pay AP in the same way for twf as much of that is invested in the vistani tree. Swashbuckler (specifially rather than swf) does have some nice other benefits though so those APs are well spent.

Virtually all SWF builds are based around Swashbuckler and Skirmisher - requiring two additional feats (Shield Mastery/Improved Shield Mastery) on top of the standard feat chain. Artificers are an exception to this, but I haven't seen any particularly good builds structured around Artificer splashes rather than Bard ones - Artificer trees tend to be rear-loaded, so it doesn't make all that much sense to splash them.


The build I'm looking at (probably FvS17/Pal3) doesn't need to keep to light armour so gets a prr boost of around 20 at full BAB, gets good saves (from Paladin) and actually has some spare APs for other defences. I should post it though - no good saying that without showing it.

The Paladin doesn't receive the 20 PRR from the Shield Mastery line, so it's a wash there. Whether Evasion or MRR over 100 is more important is a judgment call - I tend to prefer Evasion. The Paladin will likely have more AC (Swashbucklers are rarely Dex-capped by armor in endgame and Paladins get a number of AC bonuses Swashbucklers can't/won't take). However, a 3 level dip into Paladin isn't going to have tank levels of AC either.

In terms of offensive output, nothing in 3 levels of Paladin comes close to the expanded critical profile offered by Swashbuckling. The Paladin will also have much less Dodge, depending on how you value that.

The 3 levels in Bard also offer access to considerably better casting bonuses - +3 DC, 10% less spell costs and a smattering of Spellpower - if you've got the AP for Spellsinger.


I don't think this one is either swf or twf but there's a faor amount of str in animal forms so a wolf build with vistani is possible. I did a short test and most of the boosts from vistani carry through to animal form and the test I did was pretty effective albeit only at 7th.

Consider the comparison of the Vistani Wolf (using the entire NW tree including T5 and capstone) vs. a 3-level dip into Swashbuckler (ignoring elements they have in common):

Wolf: +30% attack speed, 1x main hand stat, 16-20/x3 critical, +22% Doublestrike, +24 Melee Power
Swashbuckler: +30% attack speed, 1.5x main hand stat, 15-20/x3 critical, +17% Doublestrike, +26 Melee Power, double Vorpal range.

These are fairly close. However, one involves taking 20 levels in a class, 41 points (including T5) in a tree. The other involves taking 3 levels in a class and 14 points in a tree. Wolf Druids also depend a great deal on [W] for their special moves, so having a d4 weapon type can be a major hindrance. The comparison above is part of why I've been leaning towards "wolf isn't worth it", but that's really a discussion for another forum.

Back to FvS/TWF, I think it's entirely reasonable to do something like 17/3 FvS/Monk with Vistani. However, you're again exploiting a class that grants massive benefits for a minor dip.

Haphazarduk
04-30-2018, 04:42 AM
As a general rule, SWF is really only an 'endgame' build - at least how most people do it - because you're depending on two epic-level abilities (Legendary Shield Mastery and Perfect Single Weapon Fighting) to tilt the balance. In purely heroic levels, it's less attractive.

Yes, thats one reason why I think twf is a workable alternative on this - by the time you get to swf peak you're tr'ing.




The Paladin doesn't receive the 20 PRR from the Shield Mastery line, so it's a wash there. Whether Evasion or MRR over 100 is more important is a judgment call - I tend to prefer Evasion. The Paladin will likely have more AC (Swashbucklers are rarely Dex-capped by armor in endgame and Paladins get a number of AC bonuses Swashbucklers can't/won't take). However, a 3 level dip into Paladin isn't going to have tank levels of AC either.

In terms of offensive output, nothing in 3 levels of Paladin comes close to the expanded critical profile offered by Swashbuckling. The Paladin will also have much less Dodge, depending on how you value that.

The 3 levels in Bard also offer access to considerably better casting bonuses - +3 DC, 10% less spell costs and a smattering of Spellpower - if you've got the AP for Spellsinger.

I really need to post a build to make this more transparent but the Paladin levels deliver prr, saves and potentially some aoe dps - it's not about replacing SB for dps - I'm factoring that into the relative strength of twf early on compared to swf. It may not work as well at cap. The expanded crit profile of SB is less of a factor with daggers - the difference is only +1 range.



Consider the comparison of the Vistani Wolf (using the entire NW tree including T5 and capstone) vs. a 3-level dip into Swashbuckler (ignoring elements they have in common):

Wolf: +30% attack speed, 1x main hand stat, 16-20/x3 critical, +22% Doublestrike, +24 Melee Power
Swashbuckler: +30% attack speed, 1.5x main hand stat, 15-20/x3 critical, +17% Doublestrike, +26 Melee Power, double Vorpal range.

These are fairly close. However, one involves taking 20 levels in a class, 41 points (including T5) in a tree. The other involves taking 3 levels in a class and 14 points in a tree. Wolf Druids also depend a great deal on [W] for their special moves, so having a d4 weapon type can be a major hindrance. The comparison above is part of why I've been leaning towards "wolf isn't worth it", but that's really a discussion for another forum.


I think that's ok actually. With Wolf you're (probably) keeping pure or close with all the benefits that go with that and there are some decent other things to pick up AP-wise along the way in NW/NP. Having said that, on reflection I think strength and a 2h wpns is probably a better way to go with wolf builds.



Back to FvS/TWF, I think it's entirely reasonable to do something like 17/3 FvS/Monk with Vistani. However, you're again exploiting a class that grants massive benefits for a minor dip.

Well, yes! That's the point, although I'd characterise it as "cleverly combine" rather than exploit ;)

Hap

xenon211
04-30-2018, 11:36 AM
Seems that the build section would benefit from some videos to show playstyle etc. Only, I have no clue how to do that. Anyone able to point me in the direction of a tutorial for that kind of thing? Not even sure this machine can run the software for it and the game at the same time and have it functionally playable, but some things are easier to show than to try to explain.

Matuse
04-30-2018, 02:23 PM
www.obsproject.com

Haphazarduk
05-08-2018, 09:29 AM
I'd be interested in hearing how it goes though if you do try it. Let us know what you like and dislike in it if you play it.

The build I settled on is FvS14/Pal4/Mnk2 although I may still take the 3rd level in Monk rather than Paladin. I'll post a build if I stick with it but essentially its using Pal for saves and PRR and Monk for evasion, doublestrike and GMoF twists (mainly A Dance of Flowers and Running with Wind). So far its doing really well. I haven't really noticed an issue with AoE as everything dies fast but it may become more troubling in mid-high heroics. Having said that as you're also focusing on your casting stat theres some good supplementary aoe damage and cc from spells - Sound Burst and Holy Smite work fine and Fan of Knives is a surprisingly good opener, later BB.

I'm actually beginning to wonder if I'll cap doublestrike too easily in Divine Crusader but its great fun at the moment. I have gone Precision rather than Power Attack for the fort bypass as the build crits a decent amount. If necessary I'll take exalted smite from the KotC tree but I'm not sure it's necessary.

If I was purely focused on a TR build I'd probably just go FvS17/Pal3 for wings and stay in heavy armor. Can get +30% HP from SaD and Aasimar tree that way. There are so many spell points on the build you can keep buffs up, heal and do some cc easily without worrying.

There's also a modest amount of offhand doublestrike mixed in there on the way which helps to offset SWP/Swashbuckling a bit. I'd love some on crit enhancements in there somewhere but you can't have everything!

I opted for Wis in the end although I tried a few Charisma focused tests. One thing I found was that Feigned Health (with one level of Warlock) gives its bonus (Charisma in temp hp) on all aoe spells AND scrolls. Giving out 80 odd temp HP, mass, just by reading a bless scroll is hilarious.

Hap

Haphazarduk
05-23-2018, 02:35 AM
I'm about to hit 14 and its going pretty well. Build is currently FvS8/Pal3/Mnk2. Although I'm not a huge fan of it I've been playing a lot of reaper as thats mainly where the pugs are these days. Before 12 the build performed pretty well in very low reaper but began to struggle in r3+. Once I hit 12 however it got a big bump, dps went up considerably and it now does fine up to about r5/6. For a first life that isn't too shabby although I still have to be careful with aggro and its better with a fullish group (of course).

In reaper there are lots more effects that evasion doesn't help with so I'm going to shift back into heavy armour, especially for the added MRR. If I do another life on this toon I'll probably try it without Monk levels.

I'm still using Sky Pirates dagger and a lootgen vorpal at 13 although I'll swap to Slice & Dice at 14. Blood of Vol is surprisingly good for bosses. I can usually keep myself up in end battles with the vampirism alone because the hit rate is so high. I'm regularly in the top 2 or 3 for kills although the insta death crew make that really tough from 13 onwards. Tanking reapers is usually ok until they cyclonic blast me. Another reason to get more MRR.

I regularly use Command and Soundburst outside of reaper and the SP are nice for healing the party in reaper.

AoE damage has occasionally been a slight problem. Cleave is relatively weak and its usually quicker just to focus attention for a second or two. Jump, good speed and a bit of tumble though have got me out of most situations fine so far.

Will post build soon (honest).

Hap

lemiro
05-27-2018, 06:26 AM
I'm currently at level 11 with the OP build. This thing hits hard! Single target DPS is great.

Thanks a lot for the build, I was worrying about my FvS life but I think this will be a blast.
I might try something similar for my bard life if I can work it out

xenon211
05-31-2018, 02:05 PM
Glad you are enjoying it :)

Addendum: Finally got my hands on an Assassin's Kiss from ToEE, wow is that nice for this build. The extra +1 crit multi makes a big difference on crits (60-100 pts higher depending on lvl). Easily beats out anything else in my arsenal for everything except undead which is better handled by Barovian dagger. Works very well up to the point of 1.5-2k health mobs, then I swap over to Dice for imp vorpal.

Last time I ran through with this build I tried out Fan of Knives. Can't say I was impressed with it at all. Yes it hit multiple mobs, so its ok as an opener, but it hit for maybe as much as a single normal attack. To use it during a fight was folly as it vastly reduced my number of attacks. I found it much simpler to burn a Haste boost more often and actually use a shrine at some point during the quest. The best use I found for FoK was clearing out packs of mobs in low lvl heroic quests that I was farming for gear before my rTR.

Old_Skool
07-18-2018, 02:17 PM
First off, thanks Xenon - I've wanted to play an Aasimar since they were announced but wasn't sure how to build around them. Looking forward to this. I'm looking to TR my lvl30 Pally and seems like this is a good fit, but I have a couple of questions. I created a Veteran status toon to test it out prior to actually TRing, but haven't played enough to get a good feel for it (still 7th level).

1. Plenty of comments above regarding daggers, but any other gear in particular beyond what a veteran player can logically deduce would help?
2. Along those lines, is this a medium / heavy armor build? Bard spells are almost a side effect of the SB tree, so ASF seems like it shouldn't impact the build much at all.
3. Play style - I found a good opening solo move is Soundburst to stun groups then take each one down. Later spells are all buff / heal, so in a group is this more of a wade into the thick of it build, or stay on the edge and single out stragglers?

I play with a static micro-guild (only 4 of us) so we usually try to complement each other's builds - just wanted to get an idea of how this behaves at higher & epic levels.

Thanks again!

xenon211
07-26-2018, 12:24 PM
Hey Old_Skool, sorry for the long response time, I have been taking a bit of a gaming break and haven't been watching the forums.

Gearing, yeah you know the logical things that boost Wisdom, saves, health, etc. I like to combo the Vulkoor's might and Slave Lord's Might set bonuses at 7 and 8 which lasts nicely until my next crafted set. I don't play epic levels much so no real named gear there other than a few daggers and cannith crafted gears.

Swashie is always a light armor build.

Playstyle - in high difficulty this is a squishier build, think barb. Wading in hurts so pick around the edges. Good thing is none of the mobs live overly long. As a part of a group, in late teens I found myself being the groups healer instead of dps many times. But make no mistake, this build excels at killing big nasties so don't hang back and heal at bosses. Pop all those cd's and go to town on the boss and melt it.

edit: Oh boy, just noticed U39 hit and that falconer tree looks nice. Guess my break is over. I gotta get in, finish my druid life and work up a nice wis based, mass stunning, melee build. That is exactly what I was looking for in an enhancement tree w/o the need to go 1/2 levels into fvs. This has much potential.

Hjarki
07-26-2018, 01:31 PM
Last time I ran through with this build I tried out Fan of Knives. Can't say I was impressed with it at all. Yes it hit multiple mobs, so its ok as an opener, but it hit for maybe as much as a single normal attack. To use it during a fight was folly as it vastly reduced my number of attacks. I found it much simpler to burn a Haste boost more often and actually use a shrine at some point during the quest. The best use I found for FoK was clearing out packs of mobs in low lvl heroic quests that I was farming for gear before my rTR.

While this is a bit of a necro, Fan of Knives doesn't really start to pay off until later levels. Let's say you're at level 30 with 60 Ranged Power, 120 Melee Power, 600 Force spellpower and 50% extra damage from Force criticals. That's 185 * 1.6 * 7 * 1.5 + 52.5 * 3.4 = 3287 damage per target. It's not Energy Burst, but for a free ability you get on the way to other abilities it's still very strong.

xenon211
07-27-2018, 03:01 PM
While this is a bit of a necro, Fan of Knives doesn't really start to pay off until later levels. Let's say you're at level 30 with 60 Ranged Power, 120 Melee Power, 600 Force spellpower and 50% extra damage from Force criticals. That's 185 * 1.6 * 7 * 1.5 + 52.5 * 3.4 = 3287 damage per target. It's not Energy Burst, but for a free ability you get on the way to other abilities it's still very strong.

I thought it only scaled via ranged power? Regardless, I will give it another go next time I run this build through epics and see how it does. That might be a while though as I have a few things I want to try with the new falconer tree. Add to that, that while this build makes for an easy melee FVS PL I've found that building for 3 or 4 cleaves + heals works a bit better for leveling speed in heroics. So it may be a while indeed before I run it again.

Haphazarduk
07-27-2018, 04:57 PM
I thought it only scaled via ranged power? Regardless, I will give it another go next time I run this build through epics and see how it does. That might be a while though as I have a few things I want to try with the new falconer tree. Add to that, that while this build makes for an easy melee FVS PL I've found that building for 3 or 4 cleaves + heals works a bit better for leveling speed in heroics. So it may be a while indeed before I run it again.

Does *anything* use spell power and ranged/melee power? I thought only ranged power too. I'm sure I tested with Force Power and didn't see any uplift but might be mistaken.

Hap

unbongwah
07-27-2018, 07:19 PM
While this is a bit of a necro, Fan of Knives doesn't really start to pay off until later levels. Let's say you're at level 30 with 60 Ranged Power, 120 Melee Power, 600 Force spellpower and 50% extra damage from Force criticals. That's 185 * 1.6 * 7 * 1.5 + 52.5 * 3.4 = 3287 damage per target. It's not Energy Burst, but for a free ability you get on the way to other abilities it's still very strong.
Are you sure you're not thinking of Spirit Blades? Because AFAIK Fan of Knives isn't affected by Spellpower.

Hjarki
07-27-2018, 07:56 PM
Are you sure you're not thinking of Spirit Blades? Because AFAIK Fan of Knives isn't affected by Spellpower.

No - I'm thinking of Fan of Knives. If you've got significant amounts of both Ranged Power and Force Spellpower/Critical it hits like a truck.

LawLessk
12-30-2018, 09:58 PM
Glad you are enjoying it :)

Addendum: Finally got my hands on an Assassin's Kiss from ToEE, wow is that nice for this build. The extra +1 crit multi makes a big difference on crits (60-100 pts higher depending on lvl). Easily beats out anything else in my arsenal for everything except undead which is better handled by Barovian dagger. Works very well up to the point of 1.5-2k health mobs, then I swap over to Dice for imp vorpal.

Last time I ran through with this build I tried out Fan of Knives. Can't say I was impressed with it at all. Yes it hit multiple mobs, so its ok as an opener, but it hit for maybe as much as a single normal attack. To use it during a fight was folly as it vastly reduced my number of attacks. I found it much simpler to burn a Haste boost more often and actually use a shrine at some point during the quest. The best use I found for FoK was clearing out packs of mobs in low lvl heroic quests that I was farming for gear before my rTR.

Can you post the gear you used running this build?

xenon211
01-29-2019, 07:36 PM
Can you post the gear you used running this build?

Again, apologies for a delayed response (another gaming break) ... think I got most of the stuff minus a few items I'm sure. The missing stuff is weapons and a few swaps for various things (swim skill for crucible and whatnot).

ML2 items - crafted
Head: Wisdom 2 Helmet of Spot 4
Eyes: Seeker 2 Goggles of Deadly 2
Neck: Constitution 2 Necklace of Search 4
Back: Intelligence 2 Cloak of Natural Armor 2
Wrist: Strength 2 Bracers of Fortification 43
Hand: Wizardry 33 Gloves of Resistance 2
Waist: Dodge Bonus 2 Belt of False Life 7
Feet: Combat Mastery 2 Boots of Acid Guard 1d8
Ring: Charisma 2 Ring of Dexterity 2
Ring: Feather Fall Ring of Devotion 43
Body: Vitality 6 Robe of Invulnerability
Other: Boots of Anger x3, striding clickie swaps

ML5 items - crafted
Head: Wisdom 4 Helmet of Spot 7
Eyes: Seeker 4 Goggles of Deadly 3
Neck: Constitution 4 Necklace of Search 7
Back: Intelligence 4 Cloak of Natural Armor 4
Wrist: Strength 4 Bracers of Fortification 59
Hand: Wizardry 71 Gloves of Resistance 3
Waist: Dodge Bonus 4 Belt of False Life 14
Feet: Combat Mastery 3 Boots of Acid Guard 2d8
Ring: Charisma 4 Ring of Dexterity 4
Ring: Feather Fall Ring of Devotion 59
Body: Vitality 12 Leather armor of Invulnerability
other: Visor of the Flesh Render Guards (x3): 7 min DW clickie

ML7:
CC - Seeker 5 Goggles of Deadly 4
Bracers of the Claw: 5 Con, Fort 70
Gloves of the Claw: 5 Str, Intim 10
Claw set: +3 hit/dmg (artifact), +30% threat
other: Twisted Talisman, mana clickie

ML8:
Quicksilver Cassock: Striding 25, melee alacrity 10
Symbol of the Slave Lords (might): TS, iCon 2, Dusk; Master's Gift, Hvy Fort; Eldritch Res Ritual, Mythic 1
Hardened Hide Helm (might): Nat Armor 5, iFort 35, qMRR 2, qCon 1, Mythic 1; FF aug
Slave Master's Cloak (might): iFL 8, Prot 4, spearblock II, iRes 1, Mythic 1; Def 6 aug
SL Crafted Items:
Five Rings (ring): Wis 5, Devotion 70, Heal 10, qWis 1, (sorc), Mythic 1
Chains (waist): Cha 5, Pos lore 10, UMD 1, qCha 1, (sorc), Mythic 1
Chains (neck): Dex 5, Resist 4, Bluff 10, qDex 1, (might), Mythic 1
Shackles (feet): FL 18, Acc 6, Jump 10, qFL 4, (might), Mythic 1
((no idea what I was using for other ring))

ML10:
Crafted:
ring: Charisma 6 Ring Dexterity 6, iPRR 6; Fear Immune aug
feet: Dodge 6 Boots of Strength 6, iDex 2; Blind Immune aug
hands: Melee Alacrity 7 Gloves of Armor Pierce 9, iDevotion 38; Water Breathing aug
head: Wisdom 6 Crown of Resistance 5, iFortification 38; FF aug
cloak: Balance 12 Cloak of Natural Armor 6, iWisdom 2; Hvy Fort aug
other: Negotiator's Spectacles, 12 Diplo, qDiplo 3 (swap for opts [GH])

ML11:
GS Bracers of Smoke: 45 health, 6 dex skills, Perma Blur, Displacement clickie
GS smoke goggles for displacement clickie
Crafted: Dodge 7 Belt of False Life 23, iStr 2

ML12:
Crafted:
ring: Wizardry 129 Ring of Devotion 84, iMRR; Striding 20 aug
body: Vitality 21 Leather armor of Healing Amp 25, Parrying 2; +1 Good Luck aug
other: GS Great Axe (stone skin clickie); GS Kama (triple Hamp) healing swap

ML13:
CC:
Neck: Constitution 7 Necklace of Sheltering 17, iCon 3; DB aug
Eyes: Seeker 7 Goggles of Deadly 6, iSeeker 3

An upgraded set can be made for lvl 17/18 but I never got around to it.

This is far from an optimized set for a FvS Swashie but it is pieces of what I had on hand combined with my old all-purpose melee TR set and hasn't appreciably changed since the crafting update (other than the Slave Lords items and a couple RL things). Some of the level splits on items make no sense unless you take into account the set was made long before slave lords was a thing and the augs in them etc etc. Many of the crafted mods would definitely be changed if I were to craft up a set specific to FvS Swash as well as where the mods reside on the various pcs.

Selvera
01-30-2019, 02:12 PM
Interesting thread; I've been tossing around the idea of combining vistani with swashbuckler with respecs to switch from shortsword to dagger and from empty hand to shield along the way. Adding in fvs is certainly an interesting bonus with a lot of benefits to it.

Power attack vs Precision -> Obviously this is early damage vs late damage and consistent damage vs damage vs problem foes.
I'd probably either go for cleaves or precision. And yes; I know about en-point. And I love it. But I still usually like to have cleaves as backups. En-point has a cooldown.

Fighter splash -> An interesting add; stalwart defender is a good tree; especially in heroics where greater stalwart defense isn't overshadowed by epic defensive fighting. Kensai is also nice and also takes some heafty investment of AP. Without AP investment fighter is kind of lackluster; I feel like some of your feats are at least partially wasted. (maybe better spent on shield stuff).

An alternative splash that's quite powerful is barbarian; the passive bonuses it gives are quite good even without AP; and it's powerful splash enhancements are typically a bit weaker but easier to get with less AP. (Improved power attack; I like pain; Knockout; guarding bond; sprint boost; blood tribute)

Daggers -> Don't forget the nightforge stiletto. Very good dagger that's very easy to acquire, even for newer or f2p players.

Aasimar -> Sure; the most OP newest p2p race is the best for every build. But I'd rather keep a build for racial reincarnations not tied to any race.

Wis vs Cha -> Really the only reasons for going wis based are falconry (which you don't use) and mass frog (which you don't take) or monk (which you aren't). Cha gives bard DC's, Use Magic Device, and could theoretically throw in a usable energy burst if you wanted. I'm pretty sold on cha simply from the UMD bonus.

xenon211
01-31-2019, 01:11 PM
You're completely correct Selvera, lots of room for tweaks and changes to bring things around to the focus you want. I started the build as a way to get FvS PLs, from there it morphed into a fun melee build for rTR's. Only ran it through epics twice I think. Mainly been running FvS AA in iconic/epic builds and FvS Evokers in heroics of late. One of these days I'll get back to swashie.

You make a very good point with Barb as a splash option, lose a feat or two from ftr but gain some offense and a few options (<3 tribute). I'll have to toss that into the planner and see what it looks like. Too bad I don't have any H-orc lives left, be nice to dbl dip the imp PA. That'd be kinda sick damage for heroics with Assassin's Kiss. Hmm and with supreme cleave helping the aoe out, might be worth trying. Defenses would suck by around lvl 17 though, but seeing as how often I end up in group healing mode, probably not an issue.

I tried Cha build a couple times, I didn't care for it that much. Aasimar healing hands scales off of wisdom so I just left wisdom for the default. Charisma based is absolutely doable and probably preferable depending on what you want as a specific focus but wisdom works for me personally. I know frog isn't listed, but have run with that a time or two and it's a nice feat choice as well.

I treat all "builds" I find on the forums as a template that can be modified to suit my needs, this one certainly fits that category, lot of options to tweak or remove or add to as desired.

Whitering
03-02-2019, 11:33 PM
I played a swashbuckler without cleave back when they were op and I hated it. I don't care if you one shot everything, it's slow. But this build can fit in cleaves with a bit of tinkering. I need FVS lives and I just went through a caster cleric life I don't want to try again. It's good in epic with EA and Divine Wrath, but a Warlock can do that just as well.

So, thanks for posting this build I will be giving it a shot. I have all levels of the spectral dagger and Dice I think those are all you need. Dice will see you nicely through the last few levels and is pretty easy to farm. I will only be taking this build to 20 though.