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ThomasHunter
10-18-2017, 03:07 PM
I was just thinking about posting thoughts on a FvS who uses dagger (Vol) and the Vistani tree. Then I saw that I needed to catch up on my other posts and I see that unbongwa posted a thought about an 18/2 FvS/Monk Vistani.

Okay, this seems pretty fun to me and I really want to try it. I'm not convinced that 2 Monk is needed, but I'm not against it either.

My initial thought was a throwing dagger FvS (does that work with the Vol favored weapon?). I just like the thought of throwing daggers and in hard fights you can use light spells and Ruin and Greater Ruin for some excellent damage!

Might just be a theory build, but wanted to see what others thought. Is it viable? Would it need to be melee instead? Would that mean the 18/2 split is ideal?

Thanks!

FuzzyDuck81
10-18-2017, 03:16 PM
2 monk splash isn't essential, but would certainly add some effective extra kick - 2 extra feats, evasion & centered while using daggers meaning you'd benefit from the stances.

Vol favoured weapon is only daggers, not throwing knives, ditto the centered thing, but there's no reason you couldn't make a thrower build with it, except that there's a lot of feats needed to be really effective with ranged weapons.

ThomasHunter
10-18-2017, 03:58 PM
Okay, that is really helpful. I might try one each. I've not ever built a thrower toon, but this definitely intrigues me. What Feats are essential?

Thanks!

unbongwah
10-18-2017, 04:07 PM
My initial thought was a throwing dagger FvS (does that work with the Vol favored weapon?)
No: throwing daggers and melee daggers aren't the same thing; Vol only applies to the latter. Also AFAIK Vistani only makes you centered with melee daggers, not throwing daggers (similar to Kensei One w/Blade only working w/melee Focus weapons). Hence why I proposed a TWF build not a thrower build. ;) Throwing knives + Vistani has zero synergy with FvS.

2 monk splash isn't essential, but would certainly add some effective extra kick - 2 extra feats, evasion & centered while using daggers meaning you'd benefit from the stances.
Pretty much: either human for extra feat or Aasimar for extra WIS; use monk feats for TWF & Precision; Wind stance for doublestrike or Ocean stance for +WIS and extra Dodge. Remaining feats split between melee (ITWF/GTWF, IC:Pierce, OC) and caster feats (metamagics etc.); anything left over can go towards past-life feats (Completionist etc.) or monk Adept/Master/GM of Forms feats.

ThomasHunter
10-18-2017, 04:28 PM
Throwing knives + Vistani has zero synergy with FvS.



How so? Do you not buy a FvS throwing daggers around and then adding Ruin/Greater Ruin to the mix? Seems solid enough, but I don't know throwing builds well at all.

Okay, I may take my first life, Impaqt FvS melee long sword build into a 18/2 dagger build using Vistani. Seems fun and finally an excuse to TR him.

Thanks!

unbongwah
10-18-2017, 04:40 PM
Do you not buy a FvS throwing daggers around and then adding Ruin/Greater Ruin to the mix?
What synergies do you see there? Or more precisely, what does being FvS offer you over any other caster class?

The core appeal of Blood of Vol FvS using daggers w/Vistani is you can use WIS or CHA as both caster DC and melee DPS stat. That's not an option for throwing daggers. If you go the FvS 18 / monk 2 route, you can be centered w/daggers now and benefit from monk stances; again, not an option for throwing daggers (unless I'm mistaken about VKF centering). Ranged / thrown builds are actually more feat-intensive than melee - about 6 feats for TWF vs ideally 8 for thrown (including free Quick Draw from Vistani and excluding shuriken-specific feats) - which means either a deeper multiclass for extra feats or two less feats for caster DPS (either of which waters down your spellcasting). And the DEX pre-reqs are higher: DEX 17 for ITWF/GTWF vs DEX 19/21 for IPS/Combat Archery.

Like I said: no synergies in combining FvS with Vistani for throwing knives, IMO.

ThomasHunter
10-18-2017, 05:24 PM
I misread earlier that daggers aren't even a favored weapon. Ahh, that seems sad. Any suggestions on a race for a throwing knife build?

Hulktor
10-19-2017, 06:40 AM
I misread earlier that daggers aren't even a favored weapon. Ahh, that seems sad. Any suggestions on a race for a throwing knife build?

Halfling for the Racial Enhancement Master Thrower

unbongwah
10-19-2017, 09:28 AM
Halfling for the Racial Enhancement Master Thrower
Master Thrower doesn't stack with Vistani One with Blades. However, if you want a DEX-based knife thrower, you need either halfling Skillful Thrower or DWS Improved Weapon Finesse (finally works with thrown weapons, IIRC).

Though TBH, I wouldn't bother with a knife-throwing build until devs fix Return to Sender - by far the best throwing "knife" - so it works with IPS (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/490593-Throwing-Weapons-and-Improved-Precise-Shot?p=6029942&highlight=#post6029942).

SerPounce
10-19-2017, 05:37 PM
Any potential in combining vol FVS for cha to damage with daggers (+new divine might), paladin for uber saves with max cha, and vistani for a proper melee tree? 12 fvs/8 pally would get +26 to all saves with divine grace. Or you could do 2 monk/ftr for a +20 divine grace cap, but with 2 feats (+evasion if monk).

Probably not uber, but could be fun.

I feel like there's not that much to be gained for a Melee FVS after lvl 12 anyway.

cpw_acc
10-20-2017, 04:10 AM
I've been toying with the idea of a ranger/favoured soul. Mainly for TWF with daggers.

Ranger for the free TWF feats and access to the Tempest tree (and evasion at 9th), favoured soul for the spells, blood of vol feats, use of Wis or Cha for damage. Then focus mainly in the Vistani tree, with rest of points mostly in tempest for more boosts to TWF.

No idea of power/DPS/and all those other things people here are obsessed about. I generally just make builds that sound cool or have an odd synergy (or are silly) :)

Thoden
10-20-2017, 03:45 PM
I've been toying with the idea of a ranger/favoured soul. Mainly for TWF with daggers.

Ranger for the free TWF feats and access to the Tempest tree (and evasion at 9th), favoured soul for the spells, blood of vol feats, use of Wis or Cha for damage. Then focus mainly in the Vistani tree, with rest of points mostly in tempest for more boosts to TWF.

No idea of power/DPS/and all those other things people here are obsessed about. I generally just make builds that sound cool or have an odd synergy (or are silly) :)

If you want evasion from Ranger that's 9 levels... 11 FVS doesn't do anything for you. I would splash 2 or 3 levels of monk or rogue with 6-7 levels of Ranger and 10-12 levels of FVS.

unbongwah
10-23-2017, 10:07 AM
I was thinking FvS 12 / rgr 6 / monk 2: you can just barely afford 41 VKF / 38 Tempest / 3 War Soul.

unbongwah
11-03-2017, 11:34 AM
Builder just got updated, so let's do some theorycrafting. :)

Vistani Warangel
18/2 Favored Soul/Monk
Lawful Neutral Aasimar


Level Order

1. Favored Soul 6. Favored Soul 11. Favored Soul 16. Favored Soul
2. Favored Soul 7. Monk 12. Favored Soul 17. Favored Soul
3. Favored Soul 8. Monk 13. Favored Soul 18. Favored Soul
4. Favored Soul 9. Favored Soul 14. Favored Soul 19. Favored Soul
5. Favored Soul 10. Favored Soul 15. Favored Soul 20. Favored Soul


Stats
36pt Tome Level Up
---- ---- --------
Strength 8 +4 4: WIS
Dexterity 13 +4 8: WIS
Constitution 17 +4 12: WIS
Intelligence 10 +4 16: WIS
Wisdom 20 +4 20: WIS
Charisma 8 +4 24: WIS
28: WIS

Feats

1 : Maximize Spell
3 : Quicken Spell
6 : Empower Spell
7 Monk : Two Weapon Fighting
8 Monk : Precision
9 : Spell Focus: Evocation
12 : Improved Critical: Piercing
15 : Improved Two Weapon Fighting
18 : Greater Two Weapon Fighting
21 Epic : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic : Master of: Light
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic : Burst of Glacial Wrath
28 Destiny: Forced Escape
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic : Intensify Spell OR Completionist
30 Legend : Scion of: Plane of Fire

1 Aasimar: Bond of the Fallen

2 FavSoul: Knowledge of Battle
9 FavSoul: Stout of Heart

5 FavSoul: Energy Absorption: Electricity
12 FavSoul: Energy Absorption: Fire
17 FavSoul: Energy Absorption: Cold

1 Deity : Follower of: The Blood of Vol
6 Deity : The Blood is The Life


Enhancements (80+10 AP)

Vistani Knife Fighter (41 AP)

Knife Expertise, Knife Juggler, Knife Specialist, One With Blades, Vistani Fortune, Knife Master

Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker, Rapid Attack
Vistani Knife Training, Bleeding Cuts, Mist Stalker, Haste Boost
Vistani Knife Training, Fan of Knives, Mist Stalker, Deadly Blades
Vistani Knife Training, Celerity, Mist Stalker, Double Daggers
Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker, Blessed Blades, Vendetta



Angel of Vengeance (29 AP)

Font of Power, Shield of Condemnation, Aura of Menace, Summon Archon

Scourge III, Smiting
Just Reward III, Smiting, Articles of Faith, Spell Power Boost III
Smiting
Smiting, Intense Faith III



Aasimar (16 AP)

Stronger Bonds, Wisdom, Stronger Bonds II, Wisdom, Stronger Bonds III

Fight the Wicked, Improved Recovery
Divine Purpose
Divine Charge III, Blessings I, Improved Recovery
Divine Form



War Soul (4 AP)

Smite Foe

Divine Will III




Destiny (24 AP)

Divine Crusader

Bane of Undeath, Interrogation, Purge the Wicked
Consecration III, Flames of Purity III
Sacred Ground, Empyrean Magic
No Regret, Crusade
Castigation, Celestial Champion
Celestial Bombardment III


Twists of Fate (36 fate points)

Balanced Attacks (Tier 3 Primal)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
School Specialist: Evocation (Tier 2 Magister)
Soundburst (Tier 2 Exalted)
Avenging Light (Tier 1 Exalted)


I tried to go for as close to a 50/50 melee-caster split as I could, which probably means I gimped both. :p But I like the premise of having a divine build which is equal parts stabby and raining-heaven's-wrath.

Obviously if you don't have those 10 racial APs, you'll have to drop a lot from either Aasimar or AoV trees.

Lorban
11-03-2017, 05:12 PM
Builder just got updated, so let's do some theorycrafting. :)

I tried to go for as close to a 50/50 melee-caster split as I could, which probably means I gimped both. :p But I like the premise of having a divine build which is equal parts stabby and raining-heaven's-wrath.

Obviously if you don't have those 10 racial APs, you'll have to drop a lot from either Aasimar or AoV trees.

Hey, this build sounds awesome. Do you think you could throw together a 32 pt human version with slightly more melee focus? Would it not be worth trying without tomes?

ThomasHunter
11-05-2017, 01:22 PM
Level 4 so far and I took monk at 3 and 4. I'm curious to see how this goes, but I have high hopes for sure. :cool:

I'll update from time to time. I definitely don't have any racial AP's (on any toon), but I'm not concerned about that.

Thanks for posting. I'm hoping to do the thrower TR tomorrow!

ThomasHunter
11-07-2017, 09:32 AM
Here's where I am at so far. My main question is how good/important are the Forms Feats? Is that better than Quicken for example or Intensify? Thanks!
BregolaasTR1
18/2 Favored Soul/Monk
Lawful Neutral Aasimar


Level Order

1. Favored Soul . .6. Favored Soul . 11. Favored Soul . 16. Favored Soul
2. Favored Soul . .7. Favored Soul . 12. Favored Soul . 17. Favored Soul
3. Monk. . . . . . 8. Favored Soul. .13. Favored Soul. .18. Favored Soul
4. Monk. . . . . . 9. Favored Soul. .14. Favored Soul. .19. Favored Soul
5. Favored Soul . 10. Favored Soul . 15. Favored Soul . 20. Favored Soul


Stats
. . . . . . . .34pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .--------
Strength. . . . .9. . . .+3. . . .4: WIS
Dexterity . . . 15. . . .+2. . . .8: WIS
Constitution. . 16. . . .+3. . . 12: WIS
Intelligence. . 13. . . .+3. . . 16: WIS
Wisdom. . . . . 18. . . .+5. . . 20: WIS
Charisma. . . . .8. . . .+3. . . 24: WIS
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: WIS

Skills
. . . . . F. F. M .M. F. F. F. F. F. F. F. F. F. F. F. F. F. F. F. F
. . . . . 1. 2. 3 .4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Concent . 4. 1. 1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Heal. . . 4. 1. . . . 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 21
Spellcr . 4. 1. . . . 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 21
Jump. . . . . . 1 .1. 1. 1. . .1 . . 1. . .2 . . 2. . .2 . . 2. . .1 .15
UMD . . . . . . 1½ 2 . . . .½ . . ½. . .1 . . 1. . .1 . . 1. . .1 .½ .10
Tumble. . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .12. 3. 6 .6. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5


Feats

.1. . . . : Empower Spell
.3. . . . : Two Weapon Fighting
.3 Monk . : Precision
.4 Monk . : Dodge
.6. . . . : Maximize Spell
.9. . . . : Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12. . . . : Improved Critical: Piercing
15. . . . : Quicken Spell
18. . . . : Greater Two Weapon Fighting
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Intensify Spell
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Ruin
28 Destiny: Holy Strike
29 Destiny: Arcane Pulse
30 Epic . : Greater Ruin
30 Legend : Scion of: Limbo

.1 Aasimar: Bond of the Protector

.2 FavSoul: Knowledge of Battle
.9 FavSoul: Stout of Heart

.7 FavSoul: Energy Absorption: Fire
12 FavSoul: Energy Absorption: Electricity
17 FavSoul: Energy Absorption: Acid

.1 Deity. : Follower of: The Blood of Vol
.8 Deity. : The Blood is The Life

unbongwah
11-07-2017, 10:01 AM
Higher-level monk Form feats are nice but not essential, presuming you're using Ocean or Wind stance. Quicken is a must-have for any caster build, IMO, unless you plan to use only SLAs in combat. Concentration simply doesn't cut it past a certain point. If you find yourself feat-strained, drop Dodge and move TWF into that monk feat slot. I also consider Spell Focus Evocation feat important to unlock the DC Twists from Magister & Draconic.