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PsychoBlonde
10-11-2017, 11:12 AM
This is PB's list, but this is about what I see needing work still (roughly in order of severity, not prioirity):

Druid
Complete Season's Herald revamp
Complete Nature's Warrior revamp
Third Tree (storm lord? Blighter?)
Animal form fixes
Pet revamp

Artificer
Third Tree (grenades/traps?)
Arti pet revamp

Favored Soul
Third tree (inquisitor? Contemplative? Sacred Exorcist?)
Warpriest revamp

Cleric
Turn Undead update

Sorcerer
Eldritch Knight revamp
Third tree (acolyte of the skin? Alienist? Wild mage?) Actually, I wouldn't mind Wild Mage. I pulled out my Complete Arcane and it looks like it actually might be a good fit--most of the stuff you'd need for it is already in the game.

Wizard
Some upgrades to Archmage would be nice.
Pale master pet revamp

Destinies
Primal Avatar revamp
Fatesinger revamp
Maybe a few tweaks to Magister
Grandmaster of Flowers could stand to have its DC's revisited. Again.

MonadRebelion
10-11-2017, 11:26 AM
This is PB's list, but this is about what I see needing work still (roughly in order of severity, not prioirity):

Druid
Complete Season's Herald revamp
Complete Nature's Warrior revamp
Third Tree (storm lord? Blighter?)
Animal form fixes
Pet revamp

Artificer
Third Tree (grenades/traps?)
Arti pet revamp

Favored Soul
Third tree (inquisitor? Contemplative? Sacred Exorcist?)
Warpriest revamp

Cleric
Turn Undead update

Sorcerer
Eldritch Knight revamp
Third tree (acolyte of the skin? Alienist? Wild mage?) Actually, I wouldn't mind Wild Mage. I pulled out my Complete Arcane and it looks like it actually might be a good fit--most of the stuff you'd need for it is already in the game.

Wizard
Some upgrades to Archmage would be nice.
Pale master pet revamp

Destinies
Primal Avatar revamp
Fatesinger revamp
Maybe a few tweaks to Magister
Grandmaster of Flowers could stand to have its DC's revisited. Again.

I would add to your list.

Barbarian Occult Slayer: This is hands down the worst tree. It does nothing interesting. You don't even feel like you're in a tree when you're playing this.

Cleric Radiant Servant: This tree competing with Eldritch Knight for second worst.

Unyielding Sentinel: This needs either a boost in dps or a boost in "tankiness and hate." I'd prefer the latter.

Aelonwy
10-11-2017, 01:36 PM
This is PB's list, but this is about what I see needing work still (roughly in order of severity, not prioirity):

Druid
Complete Season's Herald revamp
Complete Nature's Warrior revamp
Third Tree (storm lord? Blighter?)
Animal form fixes
Pet revamp

Artificer
Third Tree (grenades/traps?)
Arti pet revamp

Favored Soul
Third tree (inquisitor? Contemplative? Sacred Exorcist?)
Warpriest revamp

Cleric
Turn Undead update

Sorcerer
Eldritch Knight revamp
Third tree (acolyte of the skin? Alienist? Wild mage?) Actually, I wouldn't mind Wild Mage. I pulled out my Complete Arcane and it looks like it actually might be a good fit--most of the stuff you'd need for it is already in the game.

Wizard
Some upgrades to Archmage would be nice.
Pale master pet revamp

Destinies
Primal Avatar revamp
Fatesinger revamp
Maybe a few tweaks to Magister
Grandmaster of Flowers could stand to have its DC's revisited. Again.

I agree with most of your list, however, I think Divine Disciple and Radiant Servant need at least an AP cost revisit, I strongly hope the third tree for druid is Verdant Lord, and I would very much like to see an Artificier themed destiny and a Warlock themed destiny.

PurpleTimb
10-11-2017, 02:36 PM
Artificer
Third Tree (grenades/traps?)
Arti pet revamp


Artificers need help with defense and a way to be more viable as melee. That's what I expect the third tree to focus on.

Enoach
10-11-2017, 03:14 PM
...
Favored Soul
Third tree (inquisitor? Contemplative? Sacred Exorcist?)
Warpriest revamp

Cleric
Turn Undead update

Sorcerer
Eldritch Knight revamp
Third tree (acolyte of the skin? Alienist? Wild mage?) Actually, I wouldn't mind Wild Mage. I pulled out my Complete Arcane and it looks like it actually might be a good fit--most of the stuff you'd need for it is already in the game.

Wizard
Some upgrades to Archmage would be nice.
Pale master pet revamp

...

At first I thought you had left off EK, but then I looked again and noticed you put that under Sorcerer.

What I think would go a long way in the Archmage tree would be to allow the player to pick the SLA spell of the appropriate level instead of giving a single option. Now this won't be a change the effects every school as some schools lack multiple spells per level or even a spell at that level {cough, need more spells, cough}

Pale master does need a pet revamp - Understanding that PMs can't gear their pets, it would still be nice to be able to look at their attributes.
But I also think they should look at the negative energy touch, bolt, and blast to make sure its damage scales. Right now those abilities are useless against anything with deathward.

I do look forward to seeing them take another crack at Turn Undead, but not turning it into damage. Fixing Deathward on Undead issue (especially combined with Mighty Turning) as well as possibly expanding the Turning Table so that d20 + Charisma modifier doesn't cap out at +4 Cleric Level. This alone could prevent needing to throw in more power creep via gear and expand TU into the epic legendary scene.

Enoach
10-11-2017, 03:20 PM
Artificers need help with defense and a way to be more viable as melee. That's what I expect the third tree to focus on.

Wouldn't it be interesting if they could integrate the charging power of the Runearm into some defensive attributes like stacking PRR, MRR or SR.

"Your knowledge of the power flows in runearms allows you to utilize some of that power like a shield against your foes"

unbongwah
10-11-2017, 03:25 PM
Druid
Complete Season's Herald revamp
Complete Nature's Warrior revamp
Third Tree (storm lord? Blighter?)
We discussed the concept of adding Verdant Lord (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/481784-3rd-Druid-tree-Tender-of-the-Grove-V2-0) last year. I like the breakout of druid trees being:

Nature's Warrior: melee / shapeshifter DPS (obviously with bugfixes / buffs to animal forms)
Season's Herald: Evocation / elemental caster DPS
Verdant Lord: Conjuration / CC / healing (with bonus treant form)

Aelonwy
10-11-2017, 09:22 PM
I don't know if this would work but this is how I would add a Warlock and Artificer Destiny to the Destiny Chart. Also I would give them a multi-selector, so you could be in the arty destiny and choose if your Karma and XP for it went to Martial or Arcane, whereas Warlock would have a multi-selector for Arcane or Divine seeing as a Warlock's pact can be affected by Quells' Intercession attack.


https://i.imgur.com/u415LOZ.jpg

In order to facilitate the creation of these destinies I'd be willing to pay separately for them too. Since the current Epic Destiny System costs a thousand points, I could see charging 250pts per new destiny. I really can't see paying much more than that though. Totally IMHO.

PsychoBlonde
10-11-2017, 10:36 PM
Warlocks don't need their own destiny. And Shadowdancer is awesome on an arti.

The main problems with destinies is that Primal Avatar doesn't really work properly unless, basically, you cheat (kinda like druid animal forms) and FS/GMoF are way too niche. Fatesinger additionally is just BAD, even if you are a bard.

Grandmaster could potentially be kind of interesting if it incorporated some spell boosties to go with the tactics boosties, especially since weird hybrid trees like Henshin Mystic do exist.

Fatesinger just needs to do something that's actually USEFUL.

Questdoer
10-12-2017, 06:47 AM
Druid Pet revamp
Artificer Arti pet revamp

Hey... I actually made one of those way back when...
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/485854-Pet-Enhancement-Update?highlight=



Favored Soul
Third tree (inquisitor? Contemplative? Sacred Exorcist?)

Oh! I also made one of them :D
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/488178-Favored-Souls-need-something-more?highlight=

Enoach
10-12-2017, 07:30 AM
... Fatesinger additionally is just BAD, even if you are a bard.

...
Fatesinger just needs to do something that's actually USEFUL.

I actually enjoy Fatesinger on my Bard. Now I will admit he is a 14/4/2 Bard/Artificer/Rogue, so not a pure Bard.

I also utilize the Arcane Past Stance as a twist on my Wizard.

I also had a lot of fun with Fatesinger on my Half-Elf Paladin (Bard Dilettante)

DaveyCrockett
10-12-2017, 07:42 AM
Destinies
Primal Avatar revamp

Out of curiosity, what change(s) were you wanting to see for Primal Avatar?

Wh070aa
10-12-2017, 08:11 AM
Warlocks don't need their own destiny. And Shadowdancer is awesome on an arti.

The main problems with destinies is that Primal Avatar doesn't really work properly unless, basically, you cheat (kinda like druid animal forms) and FS/GMoF are way too niche. Fatesinger additionally is just BAD, even if you are a bard.

Grandmaster could potentially be kind of interesting if it incorporated some spell boosties to go with the tactics boosties, especially since weird hybrid trees like Henshin Mystic do exist.

Fatesinger just needs to do something that's actually USEFUL.

Shadowdancer is just bad, at least in my experience. IMO it needs rework, and is not really good on artificer in compression to other trees. Like Fatesinger worked legitimately better on my artificer than shadow dancer. Like have you even played it? It's super bad.

That said fatesinger is just bad. Nothing about it works in any viable way.Like just hitting things for the duration of attacks songs does more damage, and half of the buffs don't stack, matter, or work. Like most if the stuff is bugged or bonuses to tumble. or gives you extra damage vs trash mobs, at rate of 1 minor damage bonus per second. Echoes of the Ancestors are borked.

Epic moment does not work on bosses. It's just all around badness, and needs to be reworked.

Phil7
10-12-2017, 09:37 AM
Yes I agree with your list, but would like to add a few more things:

First of all Shadowdancer which is a garbage destiny so far, at least in an end-game group compared to FoTW or LD in terms of DPS.

And of course speaking of Shadowdancer add in the Assassin tree for a change. The enhancements are very nice and I wouldn't touch them but the whole principle is "Measure the Foe", which sucks to the point of being an AP waste. This whole hop-in-and-out-of-Stealth thing is so frustrating and actually makes you lose DPS. And good luck maintaining stacks during trash fights.
This class should have the best single-target melee DPS of all classes to compensate for it's solo capabilities (which suck). Rogue used to be the best boss-beater years ago and now with the changes to aggro and red alert the class is even more messed up. If they change "Measure the Foe" it might have a chance. Now even pro Stealthers can't solo any more.

It's a shame that our only video of an "Assassin kobold beatdown" is in Shadowdancer instead of LD and hence takes 60+ seconds to finish. We can't properly compare like that

Grandmaster of Flowers assuming it remains a monk-oriented destiny needs MUCH MORE dps to compete with LD or some unique buffs/debuffs accessible to Monk builds, which I would not recommend. Unique stacking effects can backfire quite often; I'm currently playing GW2 again and the game is in a state where the 60% of a raid group consists of always the same 3 classes. Thanks to unique stacking DPS boosts 60% of most raid groups are insta-picked. We don't want that in DDO aswell.
A boost to DCs alone is also not enough... no one cares about DCs on capped melees anyway. Reaching that 130+ Dire Charge is not really hard. Buff it's DPS

Magister might need more than just a few tweaks. May I remind you of the R10 Black and Blue runs where the Wizard was running in Sentinel? That is with unfarmed reaper trees. At this state Magister is a useless Destiny.
DC casters can either go tanky or go for group buffs and debuffs. This really needs to be looked at.

the rest I agree with, even tho Fatesinger might not necessarily need to be revamped, just increase its buffing potential a bit.

PsychoBlonde
10-12-2017, 01:19 PM
Yes I agree with your list, but would like to add a few more things:

First of all Shadowdancer which is a garbage destiny so far, at least in an end-game group compared to FoTW or LD in terms of DPS.

My main runs in Shadowdancer literally all the time. It's a phenomenal destiny. Not grasping how to make the best use it isn't the same thing as it being a "garbage" destiny.

If you're focused on DPS as the be-all, end-all of a class, why are you playing things that have alternate applications and require subtlety? Play a barbarian already.

Phil7
10-12-2017, 02:02 PM
My main runs in Shadowdancer literally all the time. It's a phenomenal destiny. Not grasping how to make the best use if it isn't the same thing as it being a "garbage" destiny.

If you're focused on DPS as the be-all, end-all of a class, why are you playing things that have alternate applications and require subtlety? Play a barbarian already.

Yes very phenomenal tell me about it..
I have stopped playing since weeks, cause the server population is getting really bad, but if Ravenflop turns out to be something then I will come back as a barbarian to haunt you with more dps :D

Chacka_DDO
10-12-2017, 02:40 PM
My main runs in Shadowdancer literally all the time. It's a phenomenal destiny. Not grasping how to make the best use if it isn't the same thing as it being a "garbage" destiny.

If you're focused on DPS as the be-all, end-all of a class, why are you playing things that have alternate applications and require subtlety? Play a barbarian already.

The "problem" is, the game gives you as the only indicator the kill-counter. And this got obviously consequences. Even if you don't want it and if you know this is not the only sign whether someone plays good or bad you can not evade this measurement of you.
I assume you run Shadowdancer on your main character because it gets you a high kill count and not because it is very good to do traps or something else.
But maybe I'm wrong and you're better than me.

I must often remind my self, I should be careful and don't be too addicted to a high kill-counter. Yea, I know some think now, I write this because I'm just a loser who is always behind everyone else on this "very important" kill-counter.
But even if this would be right. Be honest to your self, is there anything else for you that can tell you if you or your group members played good or bad?
I hope it for you.

With the kill counter, it is easy, every sucker can see that it is better to have 100 kills and not just 20.
But to see if someone is a good healer or tank or crowd controller need more attention.
Or if someone is even a good group mate who cares for others.

So if you do your suggestions for changes, keep this maybe in mind.
It is not all about DPS as you said, and you are right.
I just hope you mean also other things like heals, resurrections, crowd control etc.

TallMikeM
10-13-2017, 10:05 AM
I'd love to see a way of making druid fire elemental form comparable in utility to ice ele form. mebbe be given a fire type dot/dots. I understand they are looking at making spells like icestorm viable in epics, so this would be a useful addition to that.

ForgettableNPC
10-13-2017, 10:25 AM
I made a concept suggestion for Holt Warden, focusing mostly around Treant Form.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/490437-Druid-3rd-Enhancement-Tree-Idea-Holt-Warden

And I feel like a third tree for an Artificer could be something like a Renegade Mastermaker, focusing on a Golem Companion that replaces your Artificer Dog, but retains any bonuses from Pet Enhancements or Arcanotechnician buffs as well as using your Rune Arm like a Battlefist.

Enoach
10-13-2017, 12:15 PM
...

With the kill counter, it is easy, every sucker can see that it is better to have 100 kills and not just 20.
But to see if someone is a good healer or tank or crowd controller need more attention.
Or if someone is even a good group mate who cares for others.

So if you do your suggestions for changes, keep this maybe in mind.
It is not all about DPS as you said, and you are right.
I just hope you mean also other things like heals, resurrections, crowd control etc.

You are right looking at the kill count is very easy to do - It is when you realize it measures who got the last hit that you start to realize it is not a DPS-O-Meter

There are however ways to measure the other aspects

1. Good Crowd Control can be measured by the reduced need to stop and heal
2. Good Tank - essentially Crowd Control but usually seen against those that spell CC does not work
3. Good Healer - Everyone made it to the end walking, maybe with a limp but they made it

PsychoBlonde
10-16-2017, 10:51 AM
You are right looking at the kill count is very easy to do - It is when you realize it measures who got the last hit that you start to realize it is not a DPS-O-Meter

There are however ways to measure the other aspects

1. Good Crowd Control can be measured by the reduced need to stop and heal
2. Good Tank - essentially Crowd Control but usually seen against those that spell CC does not work
3. Good Healer - Everyone made it to the end walking, maybe with a limp but they made it

Exactly. My main is an arti with crowd control focus. I manufacture my own tank using the dominate ability from Shadowdancer. This allows me to sit back and DPS (always more effective on an arti when you can hold still, since you can use Archer's Focus and charge your runearm.)

As for DPS--even with the threat reduction from Shadowdancer turned on, most people can't take mobs away from me. And that's BEFORE I kick off Endless Fusillade. Consume helps me quickly bypass groups of trash mobs. Intelligent use of Radiant Forcefield helps. Crowd control helps. And I can heal the group as well. AND do traps. So, yeah, I don't worry much about my kill counter. Nobody's ever sad that I joined their group. I've tried other destinies but they just weren't as effective in combination as Shadowdancer for my arti.

Chacka_DDO
10-17-2017, 08:50 AM
You are right looking at the kill count is very easy to do - It is when you realize it measures who got the last hit that you start to realize it is not a DPS-O-Meter

There are however ways to measure the other aspects

1. Good Crowd Control can be measured by the reduced need to stop and heal
2. Good Tank - essentially Crowd Control but usually seen against those that spell CC does not work
3. Good Healer - Everyone made it to the end walking, maybe with a limp but they made it

Maybe I miss something? Does the game measures this three points and you can see it somewhere?
I said the players must see this and not everyone is able to see it.
And this has consequences.
I see a lot of postings have the kill count as a basis for there argumentation.
Unfortunately, this is the only measurement DDO give to the players, with all his obvious limitations.
I just say you should be aware of it if you do suggestions for your changes.
Not everything that doesn't affect your kill count is worthless.