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Chacka_DDO
10-05-2017, 10:26 AM
I got the Idea once I farmed Cannith Challenge items. I don't claim at all it is some kind of originally Idea of mine, I can even remember in Ever Quest they tried to introduce such Items and another player told me in World of Warcraft similar items also exits.
I think this idea is especially obvious for DDO, so I myself have come to it.
The idea is simple, you have an item and equip it in level one and it does almost nothing for you (as if you equip a minimum level 1 item).
And if you have this item in level 2 equipped it does more for you (as if you would change your minimum level 1 item to a minimum level 2 item) and so forth.
The effect is, for example, we have now this 6 items

https://i.imgur.com/TPUA6hd.jpg

And this six items can be replaced by one single item, that would look like this:

https://i.imgur.com/xEPwzbQ.png

I think it does not even need to show the calculation and this calculation can be the same for every item that provides, for example, a enhancement bonus to strength.
If these bonuses are consistent is basically also not really important how high it is exactly so you could it keep “secret” and if you interested to know if you can read it up on DDOWIKI then (i am quite sure someone will explain the details there)
To make it clear, the intention is not to make it easier to attain items. The intention is to make it easier to handle items.
And this is of course just an example because it tells you not how you can attain such an item.
I would suggest if you do a level 10 quest, the items, and named items you find there have an Item power level 12 this means the item provides increasing power up to lvl 12. If you are lvl 20 and use this maximum power level 12 item it is the same as if you would use a minimum lvl 12 item with the current system.
You could increase the maximum level of an item in some kind of barter device, maybe in combination with an experience token for example.
How you do it exactly is basically not important, I think there could be a lot of ideas to make such items more fun as the items we have now.
The important part is, such scaling items fits excellently to DDO because you repeat lvl 1-30 over and over again with the reincarnation system and for each level you need Items.

cru121
10-05-2017, 12:44 PM
i recall a similar request before, and the dev reply was something like: ~once you get the items, you'd be done with gear. how fun would that be, only have 10 items ever. no more gear shifting when you level up. designing new items would be hard. either new item is better or worse.

Chacka_DDO
10-05-2017, 01:26 PM
i recall a similar request before, and the dev reply was something like: ~once you get the items, you'd be done with gear. how fun would that be, only have 10 items ever. no more gear shifting when you level up. designing new items would be hard. either new item is better or worse.

And this is exactly not true, am I done with my gear because I got this 6 Items? Obviously not!
And I made a similar suggestion already years ago. I think before Menace of the Underdark went life.
Anyway, I think this is something that fits very well to DDO. Maybe it needs some more years but I hope one day we get this. But to get it faster players must also ask for it, and this is what I am doing here.

DaviMOC
10-05-2017, 02:08 PM
Yeah, I agree its nice and it fits well on DDo. It solves the inventory issues and would be nice to see it evolve. It can be a nice tool for controlling the game balance.

However I tend to agree to the devs position. In WoW, after the introduction of Heirlooms the dungeon gears got meaningless, the only ones that uses something different are the newbies. At level cap they introduced the amazing Artifact weapons. It got some nice mechanics( similar to what we speculate that persistent weapons would be) however it killed variety loosing the thrill of getting new weapons .

This kind of mechanics tends to normalize the game experience what could be a heavy drawback special in a game such as DDo that gives you a very wide freedom to build your toon.

Chacka_DDO
10-05-2017, 03:59 PM
Yeah, I agree its nice and it fits well on DDo. It solves the inventory issues and would be nice to see it evolve. It can be a nice tool for controlling the game balance.
This is the minimum I hope with it, just only to remove the need to have several items, doing basically the same.
See also the problem with the big gap you have if you see all newer named items with a heroic and an epic/legendary version. You equip an item at level 10 which is basically made too strong for this level (because the developer wants it to be useful for several levels I assume) and then you have to wait for lvl 28 to equip the same but more powerful version of this item. And this lvl 28 item is technically a level 34+ item (because the developer wants them to be useful at least for the last two level in a reincarnation process, which of course I also appreciate).
This all basically not need, it just remains the question how you get such an item. Out of my sight, at least in the epic/legendary version of a quest, you could get an item scaling from lvl 1-30 with no harm for the game. It is just the question what you can get in the heroic version of a quest? My suggestion would be, you can get an item with a lower Item power that can be upgraded to the same item you get in the legendary/epic version of the quest.
You could also introduce a mechanics with which you can upgrade items so that they can be slightly stronger than for the level provided. e.g. Item level power 30 +1 Character level (I hope it's clear what I mean. If you equip this item at level 25, your item gives you the power it normally would give to an lvl 26 character and in 30 the power for a level 31 character).
And of course, an item could get an power jump in lvl 28 or 30 as we are now used to.
And yes I think if you would have every Item in DDO with such a mechanic, you could make changes to the game balance far easier. Like they changed retroactively the Spell Resistance score on Items. Some very old items were not affected by this change because with the current system it seems to be difficult to do such retroactive changes. Newer items (after the Cannith Crafting overhaul) seem to be more friendly to such changes.



However I tend to agree to the devs position. In WoW, after the introduction of Heirlooms the dungeon gears got meaningless, the only ones that uses something different are the newbies. At level cap they introduced the amazing Artifact weapons. It got some nice mechanics( similar to what we speculate that persistent weapons would be) however it killed variety loosing the thrill of getting new weapons .

I have not enough experience with WoW but this sound like the players decided such items are simply better than the others and therefore they use them more. And I don't get why it loose the thrill of getting a new weapon? The key is variety! In DDO you have a lot different weapon types, with a new expansion it is not need to introduce a new even stronger Sword of Shadows for example and sorry exactly this would be boring in my opinion. You could introduce a new awesome scimitar or dagger or something else. and if you once run out of weapon types you can introduce new weapon types.
The same for every inventory slot. The items must not be stronger, they must be different to be interesting. I call it “Item Tetris” if you plan the equipment for your character. here is a lot of room for fun with items. And you can introduce new but not necessarily stronger effects for Items. (see also this (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/490120-You-could-get-an-Enhancement-as-effect-on-an-Item))
To use an Item from level 1-30 is no contradiction to all this, out of my sight.
And if you think about old Items would get outdated after this, I fear they are already outdated (like 90% of old named items are just junk now).
What I suggest is only one step, the next step besides of creating all new items with this system, is to update old items to this system. Take an old item, look what the idea of the original designer of this item was and upgrade it to the new system.
This all could be even part of a new expansion pack, or you could sell item upgrade packs for old adventure packs. So that the development costs pay off.



This kind of mechanics tends to normalize the game experience what could be a heavy drawback special in a game such as DDo that gives you a very wide freedom to build your toon.

I think here I am lost. What do you mean with normalizing the game experience? What are the drawbacks?

doubledge
10-07-2017, 02:36 AM
If they implement evolving gear, I'm hoping the gear scales at least 20% slower than top of the line gear.

This entices players to have specialized, powerful gear, but would let you use generalist, space-efficient gear for other, less important stats.

For instance, a caster might have a bunch of specialized DC, and Spell Power items, but would have one, scaling Strength (For carrying capacity), saves (You're not going to make saves unless you're building specifically for it), and, say, misc skills like Spellcraft.

Hugoleo
10-07-2017, 03:05 AM
Seems a bit boring.

bls904c2
10-07-2017, 06:09 AM
this idea is really bad for loot in the game

i play on the TR train for the last 36 lives and i have had the same equipment every life from 1-20.

i have cannith crafted gear at level 2, 5, 10, and 15. because of these sets, i dont think i have opened a chest for 25 of those lives and only started to open chests when the mimic event started.

once the mimic event is over i dont know if i would open a chest again because there is nothing in it for me.

i have 9 of my 13 toons plat cap nothing to buy.

this idea makes my gear of one set instead of having 4 sets. which come on only gear worth keeping is epic stuff so i have lots of room in my TR cashe.

i really hope others never get to the point that treasure chests are useless to them

Chacka_DDO
10-07-2017, 08:38 AM
If they implement evolving gear, I'm hoping the gear scales at least 20% slower than the top of the line gear.

This entices players to have specialized, powerful gear but would let you use generalist, space-efficient gear for other, less important stats.

For instance, a caster might have a bunch of specialized DC, and Spell Power items, but would have one, scaling Strength (For carrying capacity), saves (You're not going to make saves unless you're building specifically for it), and, say, misc skills like Spellcraft.

In DDO there is nothing like special DC or something items. If you need a specific DC you try to get everything that makes the dc higher at this point. There are only specific item combinations to get your DC as high as possible.
Therefore only items with the highest possible numbers are interesting and the combination of the effects on them, this needs to be in the right combination on your character to get the best possible result. I wonder if this is not obvious?
And therefore your objection makes not much sense to me even if I try to understand your point.

If I think further because the only real contradiction to such a system is increased item power with each update (as usual out of my limited sight):
It does not need to have more powerful items each update it just needs to have different combinations of items to make new and more effective combinations for a build possible. This in connection with the endless different class combinations you can have in DDO, gives you a lot of room for individual ideas and fun.
But if you bring out new even more powerful items with an update and all other items get outdated at the same time, the number of available items get smaller and not bigger. And with this reason, the amount of strength, for example, an item can give should be connected to the level of the item user.
this is maybe a difficult train of thought.
This close to inflation, if you print new money and give it to the people everyone like it at first of course, but if you do so, all money is less worth thereafter. This thought transferred to DDO, if you bring out new more powerful items, surely you may be happy to get them, but every other item is less worth, thereafter. Which means the game as a whole gets poorer (less possible effective variety).
The next point is if you bring out every update new powerful items you effectively take something away from everyone with old items. This is similar as if your boss would tell you: I double your wage and next month you figure out everyone but you gets his wages doubled and at the same time the prices are doubled in the shops. So the value of your savings is halved.
At the end, you maybe have to move from your country to solve this problem.
Sure new even more powerful items give you some motivation, but this is only a flash in the pan (in Germany we would say a "Strohfeuer" I hope the meaning is similar) but it gives no long-term motivation.
The short-term effects might be made the developers and most players think the current strategy is right. Players play new quests and maybe more players log in with a new update etc. but as almost everything it has also disadvantages
Like in the economy a bit inflation is good, so I can not say it is entirely wrong was the developers do.
And of course players tend to ask for more power like children ask for more candy, but the developers should be good parents and spoil their children not too much ;).
I think the positive effects a small inflation has for the economy as can be already achieved for DDO with new effects on items, with new set bonuses (but not necessarily stronger) and also new looks for weapons and armor etc.. Of course it is also easier for a game designer to just give the next item one more strength . But the easy way is often not the best one.
And to give just different bonus types is basically not much different, even if also this is clearly better than just giving more of a single bonus type. Like we have now enhancement, insightful, quality, profane and artifact bonus. This is all ok and I can live with it, but this has also its limit. Or is the next bonus type a “ridiculous” bonus to strength? and thereafter we get “ludicrous” bonuses?
I ask foremost for a consistent strong system behind the power items provide.
If you have this, you can also go back and upgrade old items quite easy. You have the name, the lore, the artwork and the quests and it just needs to update the numbers on the items to the new consistent system.
Friedrich II (or Frederick the great if you want) said once: “I have conquered a province in peace” because he has left a large swamp drowned and made the land habitable with it.
Transferred to DDO, with updated old Items, DDO gets suddenly a lot of new content because old content is more interesting again.

florestan
10-07-2017, 08:47 AM
I've suggested this type of thing a number of times, either scaling or the alteration of minimum levels to a 1,10,20,30 system. But I don't see any way this could ever happen for DDO, maybe if they created a DDO2, but they've made inventory glut, gear, and gear power such an integral part of this game I see no way they'd want to simplify all that.

Chacka_DDO
10-07-2017, 09:27 AM
Seems a bit boring.

When I read someone uses the word “boring” it reminds me on Arthur Schopenhauer Aphorismen zur Lebensweisheit (Wisdom of Life) therefore I use this word careful now.
Maybe its a good tip for you, I had a lot of fun listing to this audiobook while playing.
I don't fully agree with him, I think there is hope for us, but I think he got a lot good points.

Howsoever, my intention with this Suggestion is not to introduce something exciting new that entertains you, I foremost want to lessen the administrative expenses of items.
Of course, my small hope is we have this once and then you may tell someone else: can you remember when we had 6 items for what this one item does? that was pretty stupid!

Eryhn
10-07-2017, 09:45 AM
Blade and Soul MMO also has this mechanic: you can basically retain your starter weapon and some starter accessory items all through the game. however, you do need some effort and other loot to level them up as the evolving stuff needs to repeatedly be "fed" other weapons, accessories, collectables etc to be upgraded. in doing so you can also achieve some amount of customization.

Im kind of thinking sentient weapons is the devs taking approaches like this from other games and trying to incorporate some of that. the fact that sentient weapons is a special weapon tier and not intended as a general weapon item overhaul and how long it is/was in the pipe tells us something about how this works together with DDO item/weapon code I think ...meaning ... it prly takes a lot of effort to add a special weapon category like this, but redoing our global weapon or item system in such a way is probably not something we could expect to ever happen ?

Chacka_DDO
10-07-2017, 09:50 AM
this idea is really bad for loot in the game

i play on the TR train for the last 36 lives and i have had the same equipment every life from 1-20.

i have cannith crafted gear at level 2, 5, 10, and 15. because of these sets, i dont think i have opened a chest for 25 of those lives and only started to open chests when the mimic event started.

once the mimic event is over i dont know if i would open a chest again because there is nothing in it for me.

i have 9 of my 13 toons plat cap nothing to buy.

this idea makes my gear of one set instead of having 4 sets. which come on only gear worth keeping is epic stuff so I have lots of room in my TR cashe.

I really hope others never get to the point that treasure chests are useless to them

I suggested it especially for Cannith Crafting, the effect for you would be only you need 1/5 bank space compared with what you currently do. I do not know how it looks with you but I like more space in my bank and in my inventory.
And the reason why you only use Cannith crafted items may be because you don't know better named items that might complete your item setup or just because you figured out, that Cannith crafting items are the better option because you don't have a big gap between level 1 and 8 and another even bigger gap between level 8 and 28. At least this is the main reason why I use a lot Cannith crafting now.
The next natural step is that named items provide the same benefits (no big equipment gaps) and both provide the here suggested advantages. I just try to think further.

Hugoleo
10-07-2017, 10:01 AM
When I read someone uses the word “boring” it reminds me on Arthur Schopenhauer Aphorismen zur Lebensweisheit (Wisdom of Life) therefore I use this word careful now.
Maybe its a good tip for you, I had a lot of fun listing to this audiobook while playing.
I don't fully agree with him, I think there is hope for us, but I think he got a lot good points.

Howsoever, my intention with this Suggestion is not to introduce something exciting new that entertains you, I foremost want to lessen the administrative expenses of items.
Of course, my small hope is we have this once and then you may tell someone else: can you remember when we had 6 items for what this one item does? that was pretty stupid!

Unless you can explain why we have " administrative expenses of items" in the first place I will not take your suggestion to lessen it with any regard at all tbh.

Chacka_DDO
10-07-2017, 10:40 AM
I've suggested this type of thing a number of times, either scaling or the alteration of minimum levels to a 1,10,20,30 system. But I don't see any way this could ever happen for DDO, maybe if they created a DDO2, but they've made inventory glut, gear, and gear power such an integral part of this game I see no way they'd want to simplify all that.

I read often the call for a DDO2 and of course, this idea has also some advantages but I believe in evolution and not revolution. Nothing what could be done in a DDO2 cannot be done in our DDO.
If I see other big applications like Microsoft Office or operating systems like Linux, it appears to me, the software industry follows the model of nature.
Therefore I don't think it is impossible to widely change how items look like in DDO if you decide it would make the game better.
What I try is, to give some input for such an evolution of DDO for hopefully more success and more players I can play with in the future.

Chacka_DDO
10-07-2017, 10:46 AM
Blade and Soul MMO also has this mechanic: you can basically retain your starter weapon and some starter accessory items all through the game. however, you do need some effort and other loot to level them up as the evolving stuff needs to repeatedly be "fed" other weapons, accessories, collectables etc to be upgraded. in doing so you can also achieve some amount of customization.

Im kind of thinking sentient weapons is the devs taking approaches like this from other games and trying to incorporate some of that. the fact that sentient weapons is a special weapon tier and not intended as a general weapon item overhaul and how long it is/was in the pipe tells us something about how this works together with DDO item/weapon code I think ...meaning ... it prly takes a lot of effort to add a special weapon category like this, but redoing our global weapon or item system in such a way is probably not something we could expect to ever happen ?

To be honest I don't know much about this sentient weapons in pen and paper but from what I understand they can be improved somehow and I think that's a nice idea. But has basically nothing to do in what level you can equip them. but I'm only guessing. And without any question, I'm looking forward to seeing what the developers have designed for us.

And of course I have some other ideas too.
For example I read players there systems in other games you can have items in some kind of book and if you want to use them you “spawn” such an item.
I could imagine that it would be possible to have such a book like the Monster Manual and if you do a certain quest several times you unlock the full power of items out of this quest similar as you get more and more information in the Monster Manual your item get stronger and stronger.
For example, just the artwork and you can summon a quite weak version of the Item if you do the quest only on normal, and a better version if you do it on hard or elite, and the best version if you did the quest several times times on reaper 10 skull.
The power of this item increases of course not dramatically while the effort to get the next power step it increases exponentially. Similar to the Reaper Enhancement system (which I regard as a great success of the development team).
This is of course just a crude Idea and many questions remain unanswered.

Chacka_DDO
10-07-2017, 11:10 AM
Unless you can explain why we have " administrative expenses of items" in the first place I will not take your suggestion to lessen it with any regard at all tbh.

With administrative expenses of items I mean to have them in your bank and if you have not enough space in your shared bank you need mules and then you need to keep track on your items.
Another player told me once, he has the last days brought all the items on his mules to a catalog with the help of an exel table to keep the overview.
I do not know how you think, but that does not sound like a lot of fun for me.
The more items you have, the more effort you have with them, I think that's obvious. My suggestion is to make items more useful for the space they occupy.
You may not be affected by it, but I know many who are. It depends of course on how many years you play and how often.

Hugoleo
10-07-2017, 11:28 AM
With administrative expenses of items I mean to have them in your bank and if you have not enough space in your shared bank you need mules and then you need to keep track on your items.
Another player told me once, he has the last days brought all the items on his mules to a catalog with the help of an exel table to keep the overview.
I do not know how you think, but that does not sound like a lot of fun for me.
The more items you have, the more effort you have with them, I think that's obvious. My suggestion is to make items more useful for the space they occupy.
You may not be affected by it, but I know many who are. It depends of course on how many years you play and how often.

I absolutely agree that the amount of items that we are encouraged to keep has far exceeded the storage capacity. Especially if you do cannith crafting for multiple types of builds on the same character.
The solution for a lacking storage is better storage, not the removal of the gearing process.

It's possible that your suggestion would be an overall improvement to the game, but you seem to have done zero analysis on what is lost.

Chacka_DDO
10-07-2017, 01:31 PM
I absolutely agree that the amount of items that we are encouraged to keep has far exceeded the storage capacity. Especially if you do cannith crafting for multiple types of builds on the same character.
The solution for a lacking storage is better storage, not the removal of the gearing process.

It's possible that your suggestion would be an overall improvement to the game, but you seem to have done zero analysis on what is lost.

I agree with you, more and better storage is also something we need. I would suggest to changing everything that is now Bound to Character to Bound to Account first. And for the few cases where Bound to Character makes really sense I would make such items not bankable (like if you give out Lesser Hearts of Wood after a class change. e.g. In U36 patch 2). Then I would suggest for every account one big account bank (much bigger than the shared bank we have now) with an efficient search function. The reincarnation cache could be dropped in this process. Then you have access to all banked Items on your whole account. This is one step on the move to make DDO account and with it centered on the player who owns the account and this is the paying customer after all.
Of course, also this needs to be worked out. And this is not done during a night. But I am pretty sure this is possible and can be a win-win for the players and SSG.

And I understand if you assume I would not have analyzed the matter sufficiently. I can tell you I try to see the disadvantages too but my conclusion is the advantages outweigh them. You must not agree with them and I would like to hear reasons against it.
I think I am aware that when I suggest something, I tend to see the advantages rather than the disadvantages. Therefore, it is helpful to discuss here with others about it because I think they might see what I do not see.
And of course, I don't talk about how important such a change is and if it can be done anytime soon or if development resources can allow it.

Hugoleo
10-07-2017, 04:31 PM
I agree with you, more and better storage is also something we need. I would suggest to changing everything that is now Bound to Character to Bound to Account first. And for the few cases where Bound to Character makes really sense I would make such items not bankable (like if you give out Lesser Hearts of Wood after a class change. e.g. In U36 patch 2). Then I would suggest for every account one big account bank (much bigger than the shared bank we have now) with an efficient search function. The reincarnation cache could be dropped in this process. Then you have access to all banked Items on your whole account. This is one step on the move to make DDO account and with it centered on the player who owns the account and this is the paying customer after all.
Of course, also this needs to be worked out. And this is not done during a night. But I am pretty sure this is possible and can be a win-win for the players and SSG.

And I understand if you assume I would not have analyzed the matter sufficiently. I can tell you I try to see the disadvantages too but my conclusion is the advantages outweigh them. You must not agree with them and I would like to hear reasons against it.
I think I am aware that when I suggest something, I tend to see the advantages rather than the disadvantages. Therefore, it is helpful to discuss here with others about it because I think they might see what I do not see.
And of course, I don't talk about how important such a change is and if it can be done anytime soon or if development resources can allow it.

Making everything BtA also have implications other than storage. We are back to the same thing here, it's easy to come up with a reason for removing it without considering why it's there in the first place.

Annex
10-07-2017, 04:54 PM
Perhaps a compromise solution would work?

I think most players would agree that opening a chest and finding some rare, highly desirable item serves as one of the foundation stones of Dungeons & Dragons. Eventually, players find most of the desirable items and that feeling largely disappears. If Scaling Items drop at the same rate as current Named Items they will dramatically speed up the journey to "having it all". If Scaling Items drop much less frequently than current Named Item the game becomes "grindy".

Yet, Cannith Crafted items, Cannith Challenge items, and some Festival items already existed in scaled form. If a player invests enough time she can essentially make a "Scaled Item" that takes up 7 to 30 units of inventory.

Perhaps, as a compromise, Cannith Crafting could offer a way to roll 30 versions of an item into a single Scaled Item. Introduce a single new component called a Scaling Shard. A Scaling Shard takes the place of a Minimum Level Shard during crafting. Once made, an item crafted with a Scaling Shard scales to the level of the wearer. Crafting a Bound to Account Scaling Shard consumes 10,0000 Cannith Essences, 150 Tier VI Common Collectibles, 50 Tier VI Uncommon Collectibles, and 35 Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments. This makes a single scaling item equivalent in cost to about 10 Cannith Crafted Items but it only takes up one unit of inventory.

Now taking the role of Devil's Advocate, most players will see the materials cost of such an item and immediately abandon the system. This begs the question: If only a very small number of players will use the system and it generates no revenue, why expend Developer time building it? Would not spending that Developer effort on expanded and improved Storage offer far greater utility to a far greater number of players in a way that generates far more revenue?

Even for a compromise solution such as I propose you will need to answer the questions of the Devil's Advocate.

psykopeta
10-08-2017, 06:36 AM
it doesn't matter how good your gear is, opening 1 chest always can bring something you may want, due to unique bonuses on it, for you or for selling, like tomes, reaper helm, etc lol

that said, somethung like"scaling gear that is not best in slot but helps to reduce inv draining" would be helpful for players that use to play subpar like me, and also would reduce the utility of having so many inv bags and bank slots

that would harm their own economy, i would say

Chacka_DDO
10-08-2017, 07:15 AM
Making everything BtA also have implications other than storage. We are back to the same thing here, it's easy to come up with a reason for removing it without considering why it's there in the first place.

I would suggest you assume someone considered advantages and disadvantages but he doesn't write everything down because this is just not very efficient. this is obvious enough, so we can see this as universally accepted in the Suggestions & Ideas forum.
If you think something would be a good reason not to do it, I would like to hear it for sure. besides of this, I want to open another threat in this matter because this is another subject and deserves more atention.

Saekee
10-08-2017, 07:40 AM
my main issue with scaling is that it reduces the interesting item effects to mere quantitative factors. That makes the game a math equation and kills what little joy remains for those that play it as a veiled transcription of a math equation. The OP has hit upon this deep flaw with lootgen and CC.

Both lootgen and CC are precisely level-scaled and hence why they are so uninspiring. To ask that a single item does what they do at various levels is the natural consequence of a bland system. We asked for more unique weapon effects like Pandemonium and instead got Acid IV. It doesn't matter if one level-scaling item or multiple items does the same thing--that just becomes an inventory issue.

Unique effects like GS radiance, vorpal, paralyzing etc are generally non-scaling (paralyzing and vorpal have higher scaled versions but operate fundamentally the same) and add fun strategic elements to gameplay. Yes, paralyzing is part of lootgen as is vorpal but they drop at too low levels and are oddly implemented (I would remove them from lootgen entirely).

Consider also the role of unusual named items like Widowblight, Assassin's Kiss or Razorend and how these weapons are used.

Chacka_DDO
10-08-2017, 10:09 AM
Perhaps a compromise solution would work?
I am a fan of compromising because this is one big pillar of democracy. (just to mention it ;))



I think most players would agree that opening a chest and finding some rare, highly desirable item serves as one of the foundation stones of Dungeons & Dragons. Eventually, players find most of the desirable items and that feeling largely disappears. If Scaling Items drop at the same rate as current Named Items they will dramatically speed up the journey to "having it all". If Scaling Items drop much less frequently than current Named Item the game becomes "grindy".


At first, I would like to make you aware of the fact that basically nothing is caved in stone in an MMO.
In Ever Quest (I take this game as an example because I played it for like 9 years and it was once the leader in the MMO market) you attained items in another way. It is an open world MMO, in this game you have certain spawn points where a normal monster could spawn or a monster called a „named“ by players because his name is unique.
This monster dropped always named items, some common and others rarer. You click on the monster's corpse and then a loot window opened with a chance for different items.
In this game, which is clearly also based on D&D even when the modified the rules far more as in DDO was nothing like a chest at the start.
Everyone was used to this system and if you used to something it is not easy to imagine it could be different.
After a few years, they introduced instanced encounters for raids because the race for a big boss monster with a spawn rate of hours or even days caused often trouble between players. It was more or less also a bit PvP in a PvE game. PvP between guilds so to speak. Because the fastest and best-organized guilds with enough resources at the right moment had the best chance to kill this named fast enough after he spawned (another example for something that can be seen as positive or negative depending on your opinion).
My guild there did this raids on big named monsters with up to 350 participants and if you see this, 5 named items you can loot from there corpses are not a lot.
In those instances (we are used to having in DDO only such instances) they introduced chests too. But because these chests are only in raid encounters, and up to 74 players can enter them (I don't know if the numbers are still correct) this chests contained always several named items (like 5 at once) and the guild had to distribute them to the raid participant. You may remember It was quite similar to this in DDO at the start. The raid chests always contained 2 named items and the leader of the raid got the right to decide who gets them.
With different reasons, this was changed in DDO to the current system. For example the fact, that if you do a raid with less participant you have an increased chance to get such an item.
And also here you may notice, that you can prefer the old system with good rights too, depending on your opinion.

Out of my sight, for the pure lore and logical standpoint, if you enter a dungeon and kill the boss of this dungeon you could say you should be able to plunder everything he has, so basically every named item should be the loot and after this boss is dead he doesn't come back.
Even this was tried in Ever Quest with the “Sleeper” after his death only one guild on each server was able to get his named items. And other items out of his Dungeon where no longer attainable.
Player protested against this and at least the additional items out of the dungeons where attainable again.
Also here it is a matter of your opinion and it is not a decision based on pure logic.

The game designer/developer need to decide how much Items you can get if you kill a monster.
And exactly this is not easy to answer.
The encounter (quest) must not be too hard, but the content in an MMO must also be interesting for days, if not years.
As I said at the start (sorry I tend a bit to get lengthy but I think not everyone got years of experience with MMOs) nothing is caved in stone in an MMO.

In my opinion is the currently best base system we have in DDO the runes you can get in Legendary Tempest's Spine, Hound of Xoriat, Riding the Storm out and Shroud.
The old system with the raid counter up to 20 and then a reward list with a high chance was a needed evolutionary step to this current system.
What I don't understand, in DDO is that we keep old systems and after a while, we have a lot of different systems. So I would recommend upgrading also old quest rewards to this new system.
And therefore I would take this system with runes also for normal quests and not only in raids.
All quests could reward you with something similar to the runes, if you do the quest on higher difficulties you get more of them and if you got enough you get a base version of a named item at your choice. And with this, we have the currently best system on all quests and not only for certain raids. (This is of course only an opinion and no one must share it)
And if the developers advance the current system furthermore, this should be also introduced for the whole game. Yes, I know this is hard work but it needs to have a high quality.

My suggestion for possible further steps.
It does not even need to see such runes in your chest, you could have some kind of Item Manual and there you can unlock the named items similar to the Monster Manual.
There is maybe some room for more artwork and lore (I like such things).
At the start, you get the base version and it is possible to unlock the full power of this item with exponential more effort.
After you unlocked the named item in Your Item Manual, you have the permission to summon this item in a public area or in your house, if we would have housing in DDO.
How such a base item look and how the upgrade looks like is, of course, a question based on ideas from game designers and players.
Currently, every Named item can drop in a stronger version with different reaper and mythical boosts.
But it could be also possible to have different versions of each item as we see it on the named items from Update 23. In the epic Necropolis IV quests, some items have mythical versions with additional or stronger effects. But different versions of one item are of course a lot more designer effort. So I can understand that they go now an easier way with such reaper and mythical boosts.

To upgrade your named items (or maybe even crafted items) or unlock more item power in such an Item Manual you could add them to chest loot, to end reward lists or to certain vendors.
If these boost items drop as a rare loot in every chest in the game so you could have your little thrill in every chest to get something useful (which I also like)
The same if you have a chance for them in end reward lists (but the quest giver must “know” then if you did the quest on reaper before you get the chance on a reaper boost e.g.).
in addition, it could be possible to buy reaper boost at the reaper vendors for reaper experiences. And it could be possible to buy Mythical boosts in the same way in exchange for experience tokens e.g.).
And this boosts could be used to unlock more power on named items in such an Item Manual or you could make it similar to the addition of mythical boosts for TOEE and Slave Lords crafted items.
Prices and drop are in the hands of the developers (our all mighty Dungeon Masters) and I don't even want to decide this as a player. But I want to suggest ideas who might change the current system to a better more motivating one.
Needless to mention, I absolutely don't claim I am the big mastermind who got every idea on his own. Most things are based on the great ideas I see in DDO and other games and what I hear from other players and from what read in this forum and a little bit from my small brain.



Yet, Cannith Crafted items, Cannith Challenge items, and some Festival items already existed in scaled form. If a player invests enough time she can essentially make a "Scaled Item" that takes up 7 to 30 units of inventory.

Perhaps, as a compromise, Cannith Crafting could offer a way to roll 30 versions of an item into a single Scaled Item. Introduce a single new component called a Scaling Shard. A Scaling Shard takes the place of a Minimum Level Shard during crafting. Once made, an item crafted with a Scaling Shard scales to the level of the wearer. Crafting a Bound to Account Scaling Shard consumes 10,0000 Cannith Essences, 150 Tier VI Common Collectibles, 50 Tier VI Uncommon Collectibles, and 35 Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments. This makes a single scaling item equivalent in cost to about 10 Cannith Crafted Items but it only takes up one unit of inventory.

Now taking the role of Devil's Advocate, most players will see the materials cost of such an item and immediately abandon the system. This begs the question: If only a very small number of players will use the system and it generates no revenue, why expend Developer time building it? Would not spending that Developer effort on expanded and improved Storage offer far greater utility to a far greater number of players in a way that generates far more revenue?

Even for a compromise solution such as I propose, you will need to answer the questions of the Devil's Advocate.

When I read this I wonder why should an item that just only replaces 6 items be much more expensive at all? This makes just not much sense to me. You get not much more power, it is just only better to have one item instead of six if the one item does the same job.
So your argumentation is based on something quite questionable in my opinion.

And the next thought is. If you rate the advantage of scaling Items that high that it has to cost tremendous costs to spare normal items by such scaling items.
It seems you are very convinced that such items are clearly better than the ones we currently have.
And if they are clearly better, yes I think it is maybe worth the development effort.

And even if I am not sure whether one can define as a compromise.
Yes, it would be good if we can get such items in addition to the other items when it is already possible to get several versions of an item like the one in my example.
Something is better than nothing after all ;)

Chacka_DDO
10-08-2017, 10:43 AM
that would harm their own economy, i would say

Of course, a change has most time additional and sometimes unintended effects. Or one change makes causes the need for additional changes.
But in any case, you must ask in the first place what you want? And if you consider a change you must ask if the result is better than the current situation? And if the last question is if the effort its worth the effect?
The question for DDO is in this case how much money do we think can/want a player spend.
And then they should create the best possible system with the highest quality that makes the player get the feeling there money is well spent.
What I want is to suggest something that increases the quality of the game by decreasing annoying “work” for players. And the current item management in DDO is just annoying work for me.
Therefore I don't think they harm their economy if they can offer a better product for the same or higher price.
And to be honest, what we are talking about in fact? About memory space? Seriously? If you see that you can save in Google Drive up to 15GB for free, so is quite expensive if it comes to the question how much MB/$ you get when you save your items in bank and inventory in DDO.
also this unpleasant question may be asked in my opinion.

Chacka_DDO
10-08-2017, 11:40 AM
my main issue with scaling is that it reduces the interesting item effects to mere quantitative factors. That makes the game a math equation and kills what little joy remains for those that play it as a veiled transcription of a math equation. The OP has hit upon this deep flaw with lootgen and CC.

Unfortunately, this is an irreconcilable contradiction.
In Ever Quest all effects items have were hidden at the start. To discover the effects and lore of an item you had to cast a spell on it. But players disliked it because they wanted to instantly know what an item does.
The game balance must be based on mathematical formulas and numbers there is no way around it.
You could even say my suggestion could be a chance for those who don't want to dig too deep into the game mechanic and maths and want to enjoy more the lore and art work of the game.
Because if you can rely on that your items give you the best possible Strength score for your level you don't need to care about the formula. You know the game takes care of this detail for you.
Therefore its basically enough if the item displays what kind of bonus it gives, and you know what it does for you. This means fewer numbers and formula and not necessarily more as you suspect.
And for those who want to know more of the numbers behind, they can still try it out and read e.g. DDOWIKI for this informations.



Both loot gen and CC are precisely level-scaled and hence why they are so uninspiring. To ask that a single item does what they do at various levels is the natural consequence of a bland system. We asked for more unique weapon effects like Pandemonium and instead got Acid IV. It doesn't matter if one level-scaling item or multiple items does the same thing--that just becomes an inventory issue.

Sorry had to edit this, because I read not enough.
Yes I agree the item effects foremost on weapons on CC and lot gen weapons are uninspiring.
They did it already better like this Longbow.

https://i.imgur.com/vrYFPKO.png

Maybe players could make suggestions what they like to see on random generated loot?
Or we just have to accept the fact, that named items are just more fun because a game designer takes care of each one.

But the problem comes not from the fact that they scale in level. It is in human nature, to rate something that is easy to attain lower than something that is hard to attain.
If you ask how valuable water is. The thirsty man in the desert gives you another answer than the one who swims in an ocean.
I would assume that one relatively hard-worked item feels better than six other items, each one of which is easy to achieve in itself, and together with the same effect as the one item.
But this is of course only my opinion.



Unique effects like GS radiance, vorpal, paralyzing etc are generally non-scaling (paralyzing and vorpal have higher scaled versions but operate fundamentally the same) and add fun strategic elements to game play. Yes, paralyzing is part of lootgen as is vorpal but they drop at too low levels and are oddly implemented (I would remove them from lootgen entirely).


You may consider reading this (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/490120-You-could-get-an-Enhancement-as-effect-on-an-Item). And effects can either scale or a scale is sometimes not even need.
But this is a question that can not be answered in general.
e.g. if an Item got true seeing on it you can ask at witch level it should be activated, because there is no scaling for this. But if you look closer you could say at level 1 this item provides the Detect Secret Doors effect and in level 8 it gives you True Seeing.



Consider also the role of unusual named items like Widowblight, Assassin's Kiss or Razorend and how these weapons are used.

If you ask me if such weapons with increased critical multiplier and/or threat range should exist I would say, this is questionable, but I use them and I have fun with them.
If you ask if they should have this increased threat range already at level 1 I would say why not?
Chieftain's Spear (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Chieftain%27s_Spear) provides increased threat range already on level 4 in the current Items and I have not the feeling this is a big problem.

Uska
10-08-2017, 04:07 PM
Horrible idea and very non d&d. I want to know how people think it fits DDO? it's all about questing for new and better loot this kills thst and makes it all about killing monsters only

Saekee
10-08-2017, 05:31 PM
the only current scaling item in the game is Flame Blade. Based on druid levels or if PL feat, character level.

Annex
10-08-2017, 07:53 PM
I think this really boils down to subjective experience. Some people want to play without constantly fretting over equipment. Some people really enjoy the puzzle process of finding and building equipment sets. Players exist on a continuum between those two poles and you will find no agreement between them.

I think the vast majority of players enjoy collecting interesting and unusual items, both for situational usage and as trophies. Unfortunately, DDO makes it extremely difficult to collect and organize equipment because storage works incredibly poorly. The game design literally takes a huge strength and throws it down the privy hole!

The Developers would generate a ton of Good Will if they would dedicate one entire Update to Storage. Add hundreds or even thousands of units of affordable Storage Space. Make all Storage easy to organize, search, and sort. Make all Storage Bags sort into categories and searchable like Collectible Bags. Make the Crafting Vault sort. Make it possible to store entire Equipment Sets on Window Pages and instantly swap them into use. Get rid of the Reincarnation Cache. Add a Trophy Case like the Star Wars Collection System. All these things, suggested many times in the past, would make collecting Equipment a joy again and eliminate the need for anything like Scaling Equipment.

Chacka_DDO
10-09-2017, 05:55 AM
Horrible idea

1. It is interesting that you use the word horrible. It frightens you, because you do not understand it?


and very non d&d.

At first, I would like to hear what exactly is non d&d? A lot of players tell me DDO is far far away from d&d pan and paper system. I think that is with good reasons because of significant differences between an MMO and pen and paper. One big difference is, the math is limited in pen and paper. What I suggested, is simply not possible because the Dungeon Master in a pan and paper session is not a computer. And it would be no fun if the Dungeon Master needs two days to calculate one fight. In contrast, a computer does this job in a blink of an eye. But what I suggest takes nothing away from anyone, just the developers might have a harder job to create interesting new items if it is not enough to just add another strength point to an item to make it new and "exciting".


I want to know how people think it fits DDO?

This makes me fear you did not read enough here. I seem to be the only one who thinks this fits DDO. so you can be completely reassured, it will not happen anyway.


it's all about questing for new and better loot this kills thst and makes it all about killing monsters only

I exaggerate now to maybe make it clear: So if we now remove all monsters from the game and you just run to the chests to get your precious loot you would more like to play DDO?
I know it is also a matter of opinions and sometimes we must agree that we disagree. I would suggest you read this page (http://www.l2pnoob.org/index.html). Much of what the author says it is correct in my opinion. You don't have to agree with it but you might consider that other players have other reasons to play than yours.

And of course, I can not force anyone. At most I can convince. But to convince someone of something that is different from what he has learned in his youth is almost always a hopeless endeavor. And that is scientifically and statistically quite clearly demonstrable. Basically, no one (and that obviously includes me) is free from it. And with good reasons, humans developed this behavior. the best thing we can do is to be aware of it

Chacka_DDO
10-09-2017, 06:02 AM
the only current scaling item in the game is Flame Blade. Based on druid levels or if PL feat, character level.

Thank you for this good example. I think the existence of this spell demonstrates more or less that it is not any harm to have something like this in DDO.
Or maybe this spell should be removed quickly now and we need this spell in 30 different versions, one for each character level? :rolleyes:

Chacka_DDO
10-09-2017, 07:00 AM
I think this really boils down to subjective experience. Some people want to play without constantly fretting over equipment. Some people really enjoy the puzzle process of finding and building equipment sets. Players exist on a continuum between those two poles and you will find no agreement between them.

I think the vast majority of players enjoy collecting interesting and unusual items, both for situational usage and as trophies. Unfortunately, DDO makes it extremely difficult to collect and organize equipment because storage works incredibly poorly. The game design literally takes a huge strength and throws it down the privy hole!

The Developers would generate a ton of Good Will if they would dedicate one entire Update to Storage. Add hundreds or even thousands of units of affordable Storage Space. Make all Storage easy to organize, search, and sort. Make all Storage Bags sort into categories and searchable like Collectible Bags. Make the Crafting Vault sort. Make it possible to store entire Equipment Sets on Window Pages and instantly swap them into use. Get rid of the Reincarnation Cache. Add a Trophy Case like the Star Wars Collection System. All these things, suggested many times in the past, would make collecting Equipment a joy again and eliminate the need for anything like Scaling Equipment.


It seems to me we are tooting the same horn.
The bank and item system in DDO should be rethought with the experiences made in recent years.
Much was simply unpredictable.
for example, I mean to understand how the reincarnation cache has happened.
You get additional bank space via house Kundarak favor.
Everything you attain with favor is normally removed after a true reincarnation.
I suppose, someone decided it is necessary to remove this extra space after a reincarnation.
His solution was this reincarnation cache.
If he had carried out this process out by himself. And he would have guessed that the player now has to do this eighty-seven times to get all the true reincarnation past life feats.
He might have been considered, he could leave this extra space to the player. because the advantages don't outweigh the disadvantages.
Sure it may be a lot of work to change such things retroactively.
Nevertheless, the courage for a necessary change should be taken.

However, I do not agree with the final conclusion.
The question for me is not whether scaling items are better or worse. The question is mainly how to integrate them into DDO.

florestan
10-09-2017, 10:24 AM
Horrible idea and very non d&d. I want to know how people think it fits DDO? it's all about questing for new and better loot this kills thst and makes it all about killing monsters only

I don’t see how anything is more non-D&D than the minimum level system we have. I don’t recall any chars ever picking up a +2 weapon and thinking well I won’t have any idea how to use this until I gain a couple levels. It’s ancient history at this point but the game was designed to have an expansive gear system to keep players scaled up to content by level based on the levels of the items. I know it won’t happen but there’s no reason that scaling couldn’t have been baked into one item as opposed to carrying a bunch of weapons with different MLs. They just chose to go this route for reasons that made sense to them.

If the game did have a scaling item system the challenge would be questing for mats/achievements to grow the power or look of your weapon. And from a lore perspective it’s possible to think of it as the character becoming more powerful in using the weapon as opposed to thinking of the weapon itself changing.

cpw_acc
10-09-2017, 10:34 AM
Didn't some edition of D&D have some concept of 'legacy' weapons or something? I might be mis-remembering, but I thought that was the same basic idea - a weapon that 'leveled-up' with the owner.

I wouldn't object to this, as it would mean that - if you found an item that suited you - you could gradually acquire more powerful versions of it rather than the current system where you spend so much time and effort playing "item-swapsies"

("Item-swapsies": You know that game, where you find a belt with much better dodge, and you want to use it, but currently you have dodge on a cloak and your belt has Con, so you can't use it because you would lose the Con unless you manage to find a cloak with Con, but the only cloak you find that's better has fire-res which is currently covered by that ring, so you need to find a ring with Con so you can....etc etc bleurgh!)

Chacka_DDO
10-09-2017, 11:08 AM
I don’t see how anything is more non-D&D than the minimum level system we have. I don’t recall any chars ever picking up a +2 weapon and thinking well I won’t have any idea how to use this until I gain a couple levels. It’s ancient history at this point but the game was designed to have an expansive gear system to keep players scaled up to content by level based on the levels of the items. I know it won’t happen but there’s no reason that scaling couldn’t have been baked into one item as opposed to carrying a bunch of weapons with different MLs. They just chose to go this route for reasons that made sense to them.

If the game did have a scaling item system the challenge would be questing for mats/achievements to grow the power or look of your weapon. And from a lore perspective it’s possible to think of it as the character becoming more powerful in using the weapon as opposed to thinking of the weapon itself changing.

thank you for the hint

If I think about the problem what is more realistic/logically I have this example:
If I have a sports car, the result how fast someone is in a race is decided by both, the ability of the driver and the potential of the car.
Also here you see that the “level” of the driver unlocks the potential power of this car.
A game doesn't have to be-be realistic, it must be logical. But the reality is logical. A game/MMO is just different because the conditions can be changed, for example, you can set the gravity to zero.

A small trip into MMO history for to the reasons why minimum level on items
Normally a character cannot do quests that are far above his level. So he has no access to items that are far too powerful for them. I assume that's in pen and paper the same as in an MMO. I assume a good Dungeon Master would not give out too powerful items to a character because this harms the game.
Now in an MMO. Players trade items with each other or give Items they attained with there high-level characters to there low-level characters. In EQ there was the word my “twink” for this with a way to powerful items equipped low-level characters.
The solution for this problem is minimum level items.
But if the items are “intelligent” enough to give not to much power to such a low-level character you don't need a minimum level.
I thought that's an obvious and a well-known fact.

Uska
10-10-2017, 01:38 AM
1. It is interesting that you use the word horrible. It frightens you, because you do not understand it?



At first, I would like to hear what exactly is non d&d? A lot of players tell me DDO is far far away from d&d pan and paper system. I think that is with good reasons because of significant differences between an MMO and pen and paper. One big difference is, the math is limited in pen and paper. What I suggested, is simply not possible because the Dungeon Master in a pan and paper session is not a computer. And it would be no fun if the Dungeon Master needs two days to calculate one fight. In contrast, a computer does this job in a blink of an eye. But what I suggest takes nothing away from anyone, just the developers might have a harder job to create interesting new items if it is not enough to just add another strength point to an item to make it new and "exciting".



This makes me fear you did not read enough here. I seem to be the only one who thinks this fits DDO. so you can be completely reassured, it will not happen anyway.



I exaggerate now to maybe make it clear: So if we now remove all monsters from the game and you just run to the chests to get your precious loot you would more like to play DDO?
I know it is also a matter of opinions and sometimes we must agree that we disagree. I would suggest you read this page (http://www.l2pnoob.org/index.html). Much of what the author says it is correct in my opinion. You don't have to agree with it but you might consider that other players have other reasons to play than yours.

And of course, I can not force anyone. At most I can convince. But to convince someone of something that is different from what he has learned in his youth is almost always a hopeless endeavor. And that is scientifically and statistically quite clearly demonstrable. Basically, no one (and that obviously includes me) is free from it. And with good reasons, humans developed this behavior. the best thing we can do is to be aware of it

Sigh ????

Chacka_DDO
10-10-2017, 07:00 AM
Sigh ????

I tried to take you seriously as possible and so I tried to analyze your one-liner as good as any possible.
Possible I failed with it. if so, I'm sorry about it.

Maybe my basic assumption is wrong. This forum here is there to make suggestions and give ideas and other players can ask questions and give additional input.
This basic assumption includes obviously that it is not some kind of voting whether a suggestion is good or bad and if the developers should do it or not.

Therefore once again. If you have a question or a reason that speaks against my suggestion please tell me.

I try to make it as short as any possible because I fear I wrote already a way too much about reasons.

I think it should be possible to equip every item with no minimum level. To make this possible an lvl 28 item is just weaker if you use it in level 1.
This takes absolutely nothing away from anyone, it would give you only an additional option.

I am well aware this has consequences but I tried to show here, that the disadvantages don't outweigh the advantages.

Chacka_DDO
10-11-2017, 02:48 AM
Í want to make an addition because I think I got an Idea why some other players so strongly dislike my suggestion.
And, I want to mention that everyone is welcome here. And even if it may not look like this, the critic is something I really appreciate.

Howsoever, I think my example is also not very convincing because it is ugly. Sorry, but at the point I create it, I was too focused to show how this item would „work“ but I should have rather the focus on showing how small the change for the player in fact is.
My intention is to make a change as small as possible for the actual use, at its best such a change should not even be noticeable if it is there.
Therefore here another example how items could look like after the change I suggested.

https://i.imgur.com/EVuNNsP.png

I think not everyone sees the difference on the first glance. It is just the Minimum lvl has turned in a Maximum level. Until this level. The item increases in power, but you could equip it already in level one and the same item would look like this in level eight if you examine it.
And yes I'm aware it is very unlikely that it would look exactly like this but as an example it is still expedient.
In my opinion, this is simply better than the current items and if the developers would introduce it with the next patch I cannot even imagine anyone would complain about this change.
Nevertheless, I know it is a lot of work to do such a change. But I can imagine it is doable. I also think a rework of how items work in general in DDO is also overdue. One sign of this is multiple slot items like the slave lord crafted rings cannot "remember" the slot the player dedicated to them. And another sign is, that Celestia, Brightest Star of Day doesn't have the innate DR breaking properties with certain buffs. The developers don't fix this “bugs” due to the limits of the current DDO and not because they wouldn't like to do it.
And therefore such a change is not to expect very soon but if there is an overhaul for items, in general, this could be a part of it in my opinion.
But that all is of course only an assumption of mine.

bls904c2
10-11-2017, 05:32 AM
one very simple observation.

have you ever noticed what quests are being run in DDO

the vast majority of quests are overwhelmingly being played for 2 things xp and loot. its why its hard to find LFM for specific quests. lots of people are on tr train to get past lives either in epics ( your dailies ) or in heroics for past lives.

take a look at what they are running high xp short completion times. its not the loot in chest its loot of a past life.

the other group is running quest to death to get that item they seek. in the past it was thunder forge, green steel, slavers and recently the mines items.

your idea will make TRs more equipment friendly and won't affect those that min max their toons. this is probably what you are going for and or hoping for.

now that i made your point why it is a good idea for the game let me tell you why it is really bad for the game.

to make it even worth while to even equip it has to be min level of cannith crafted. this makes cannith crafted obsolete and not used. it makes finding the ingredients useless.

this takes some one elses fun out out of the game.

if you make cannith crafted and require equivalent to what 6 sets of cannith crafted are ( 5,10,15,20,25,30), like you suggested. The grind is so large so few people will do it for equipment that is below named items. the grind will be equivalent to slavers set which already turns some people off. People are complaining about the power of past lives and feel they have to do it or fall behind power curve.

power players who like min max wont do it because of its awful stats.
casual players might bellie ache about new grind in game
flower sniffers won't care and if they get it they get if not oh well

if you lower the cost it will make random loot useless to a point that no one will pick it up. at that point just make the random loot scale with level which again takes some one elses fun out of the game.

so you either get people mad at new system and quit or will accept it and farm or avoid it.

if you made it the levels of named items and have it drop in new quests you just made all loot in game obsolete. and limit what the devs can make for the new packs in the future.

this idea either destroys named loot or cannith crafting, angers people over grind, or is useless from the power levels.

all 3 is a waste of dev time that they can be creating new quests.

i would rather have the dev time spent on player storage then this idea

Chacka_DDO
10-11-2017, 11:29 AM
one very simple observation.


have you ever noticed what quests are being run in DDO

after more than 10 years DDO and often I played every day more than 10 hours you might consider: yes I have some experiences.



the vast majority of quests are overwhelmingly being played for 2 things xp and loot. its why its hard to find LFM for specific quests. lots of people are on tr train to get past lives either in epics ( your dailies ) or in heroics for past lives.

possible right not only on your server, and?




take a look at what they are running high xp short completion times. its not the loot in chest its loot of a past life.


Right, past lives is also for me a motivator. So I agree. Loot is for me just only means for the purpose. But the same is past lives.
If you not aware of this fact, you have a circle here, you get stronger with loot and past lives. But you need a purpose for this and this is the ability to quests on a higher difficulty.
I am well aware some people only have the goal to have a super strong character and they think the end justifies the means. So they do quests on way too low difficulty just only to get their fast completion and with it as max as possible exp/second. Or they use exp potions or even Otto's boxes. I have to respect it, but I do it differently.
But this only to show you that there simple different player types so don't think you speak for everyone I don't think you speak for players like me. And there also other types of players.



the other group is running quest to death to get that item they seek. in the past, it was thunder forge, green steel, slavers and recently the mines items.

Right and also this is what I still sometimes do but I avoid it meanwhile and just take what I get on my way. And due to my play time that's more than I need.
Also here don't make the mistake to think everyone is knitted like you.



your idea will make TRs more equipment friendly and won't affect those that min max their toons. this is probably what you are going for and or hoping for.

At the moment my pure sorcerer runs around half naked once again because it is just super annoying an no fun at all to equip him with the current mechanic. It needs 32 items to gather just only for lvl 1-5 and these items are replaced thereafter.
So definitively yes I wish there would be not such a big gap.
And sure you can say that's my problem but if I talk to other players I met not a single one who see this differently.
And if you say Cannith crafting is my solution, I tell you it is not! Because my bank and mules now swell over with Cannith crafted items. Mainly with the reason that you need new items every few level if you take it seriously with your equipment.



now that i made your point why it is a good idea for the game let me tell you why it is really bad for the game.
to make it even worth while to even equip it has to be min level of cannith crafted. this makes cannith crafted obsolete and not used. it makes finding the ingredients useless.

I'm sorry but I think I don't understand the middle part not only because I am not good enough in English, it makes just no sense (I really try to understand.)
But I don't think Cannith crafting is worthless then.
Because the sense of Cannith crafting is, it potential can fill equipment gaps, and you can even fully equip your character with it.
If the developers bring out to strong-named items, so Cannith crafting can no longer keep up this is another issue!
So I fear you burst in the wrong direction.



this takes some one elses fun out out of the game.

if you make cannith crafted and require equivalent to what 6 sets of cannith crafted are ( 5,10,15,20,25,30), like you suggested. The grind is so large so few people will do it for equipment that is below named items. the grind will be equivalent to slavers set which already turns some people off. People are complaining about the power of past lives and feel they have to do it or fall behind power curve.

Sorry but I have to tell you: your argument is clearly not logically. If the grind is the same for six items as for one item the grind remains the same.
If you think the grind is too much, I must tell you again that's another issue.
And for the grind, I have the opinion that the developers don't really calculate how many time a player needs to do something.



power players who like min-max won't do it because of its awful stats.
casual players might bellie ache about new grind in game
flower sniffers won't care and if they get it they get if not oh well
if you lower the cost it will make random loot useless to a point that no one will pick it up. at that point just make the random loot scale with level which again takes some one elses fun out of the game.

Sorry, but your argument got a fundamental error. Everything that is too much is bad and everything that is not enough is bad.
If someone uses this “trick” you instantly caught him that he most likely tries to fool you.
And the most time it happens if someone knows that it would work with the right amount but he doesn't want to admit it to others or even to himself.
Example:
claim: Eating is bad.
Argument: If you eat too much you will be bad and if you eat not enough you will starve.
Doe's this proves the initial claim?



so you either get people mad at new system and quit or will accept it and farm or avoid it.

So if players can use the same items now in level one they have to farm anything more than now?
You just fear something could happen.



if you made it the levels of named items and have it drop in new quests you just made all loot in game obsolete. and limit what the devs can make for the new packs in the future.

Exactly this is what we currently have. The developers bring out each update more powerful items and exactly this makes old loot obsolete.
Then you say you want the developers should not be limited so they should do it? But at the same time, you seem to be against obsolete old loot.
Are you even more confused than me? :confused:



this idea either destroys named loot or cannith crafting, angers people over grind, or is useless from the power levels.

The same error as before a simple "not enough is bad and too much is bad" argumentation.



all 3 is a waste of dev time that they can be creating new quests.

mantra: I do not talk about priorities.



i would rather have the dev time spent on player storage then this idea
mantra: I do not talk about priorities.

Chacka_DDO
10-11-2017, 03:35 PM
Another rephrase because I somehow feel a little bit like Galileo as the pope told him he has to admit the world is flat and the sun orbits the earth.

My impression is, that bls904c2 and others just fear a change they don't understand.
I respect this but I can not overcome this fear for them.

The minimum level restrictions on items exist only because you could use to powerful items otherwise.
So your low-level character could run in “god mode” through low-level quests.

This is why developers in other games introduced minimum level limitations for items and everyone is used to it now.
But if one makes items intelligent enough that they don't enable “god mode” on your low-level character, the minimum level is simply unnecessary.

Such a minimal level is even not logically and in my opinion also harmful.

But now players and even developers (who are most times players too) are so much used to this fact, that it seems to be unbelievable hard to change their minds.

I don't know any game with items that really scale with your level because in other games you have nothing like reincarnation and the characters live their life only one time.
Therefore in all other games I know, there is simply no need for something like this.
But in contrast, it would fit very well for DDO.
And because it fits so nicely to DDO, I would like to have it.
It fits so excellent to DDO so that some players fear that could be unaffordable. But this is simply not the case.
The developers have just only to set a reasonable price.

For example, you lost all your tomes after a reincarnation in the past.
A +7 tome is also an item that scales with your level.
And this seems not to be very harmful and I cannot remember any player protested against this change.
Now you don't lose your +7 tome during a reincarnation process.
Are the tomes now unaffordable?


i recall a similar request before, and the dev reply was something like: ~once you get the items, you'd be done with gear. how fun would that be, only have 10 items ever. no more gear shifting when you level up. designing new items would be hard. either new item is better or worse.

Also, this is simply not true and I think I can logically prove it:
You have 14 classes in DDO and you can do 87 reincarnations.
this assertion would be true only if you would do all of them with the same build. But this would be only possible if you use each time a +20 heart of the wood.
Not to mention the fact that you have already more than 10 inventory slots.
And not to mention that most builds need different equipment for different situations and different character development etc.
For example, I start my wizard often with a repeating crossbow but later I change this exotic weapon feat for another because he does everything with spells then.
And you can bring every update new items with different additional effects. And this makes the card house of the once-conceived eternal equipment set up often enough collapse.

It might make it more complicated to find the right mathematical functions for the item power.
But this occurs only if you decide, Items give not consistent power per level.
But I would strongly vote for such a consistent system.
And also I can name reasons.
One big strength of DDO is variety.
If you just only make items stronger it deprives DDO the variety.
You have no progression with the numbers of available items, you have stagnation.
Because old items get obsolete due to there low power.
I don't get why this is so hard to swallow.

And when I see the old system where an item had such a maximum level of power I assume you basically break the pen and paper rules too.
And it is vice versa from what e.g. Uska asserted.
Not my suggestion is "very non d&d"
I seem to be one who tells you, you should return to the sensible pen and paper rules.
I would like to emphasize that I don't want to talk about whether 17, 18 or 19 strengths are enough on a level 28 item.
And also not how many effects an Item should have.
But I would like the developers to decide for such a value, not least because it serves their own cause at the end.
Cannith crafted items obviously have such values but you shouldn't break your own rules, again and again.

And if you don't see this already by yourself, the developer act against the meaning of the minimum level idea.
They give you level 28 items with the power of a level 36 item or even higher.
This all makes just no sense in my opinion.
Sure, who doesn't like to feel mighty? But I think, it is a proved fact, that god-mode isn't long lasting game fun.
And I don't vote for a nerf here. Keep your power, have fun with it! But I must tell you, this all has a limit and my feeling is, this limit is already reached.

And yes,I know, such level 28 items are a concession to players. This way, the players can use their named-items in two levels per life before they reincarnate again.
But this is not necessary with scaling items