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View Full Version : small kotc/pally rework



the_one_dwarfforged
07-20-2017, 02:53 AM
change following spells to:

holy sword: only applies to short swords, long swords, bastard swords, and great swords. +2 crit multiplier.

zeal: grants +1% double strike per paladin level.




change following enhancements to:


champion of good: You gain +4 Charisma and +2 wisdom. The bonuses granted by Courage of Heaven are increased by an additional +2. Your attacks now deal 7d6 additional Light damage. Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction. [no longer gives +10 mp]

extra smite: You gain 2/4/6 additional uses of Smite Evil per rest.

exalted smite: Active: An improved smite that adds +1/+2/+4 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier and 0/+1/+2 to your weapon's critical threat range.

empowered smite: Active: Your Smite Evil and Exalted Smite abilities increases Melee Power by 5 for 10 seconds. this effect stacks up to 15 times.

divine sacrifice: This attack deals an additional (1/3/9)d6 Light damage and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1/2/3, but costs you 100/50/25 hp and 50/10/2 sp, whether or not the attack is successful. Light damage scales with 100% Melee Power.

passion: restore one charge of smite evil when divine sacrifice [crits on a roll of 19-20/crits/hits] an enemy. OR chance to restore one charge of smite evil when divine sacrifice hits an enemy; % equal to (paladin level *1/3/5).

censure demons: You gain On roll of 19-20: Stun Chaotic Evil outsiders for 3 seconds.

censure outsiders: Your Censure Demons ability now applies to all Chaotic or Evil outsiders. [no longer gives +5 mp]

holy retribution: use smite evil charge: Executes 3 powerful holy strikes against all targets around you (same AoE as Cleave[this should say momentum swing iirc?]) that deals +4/+7/+10[W] damage with +2 crit multiplier. On Damage: Evil creatures with less than (33*character level/100*character level/200*character level) HP have a 50%/75%/100% chance to be forced to make a WIll save (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod + wisdom mod) or be destroyed. On a successful save, the affected creatures take 100 holy damage (scales with 500% mp) from this attack as well as -6 to all ability scores for ten seconds. (Cooldown: 6 seconds) This ability also recharges one turn undead.






i think this would enable a somewhat different style of gameplay from other melee classes with both high potential and high opportunity cost. this would bring paladins back into relevance as damage builds without giving them advantages in utility or tactical abilities, giving them a defined role without overshadowing other melee classes signature traits. the suggested change to holy sword in combination with the offensive potential of the kotc changes would create a genuine reason for greatswords and longswords to exist and be used in this game.

valkrei
07-22-2017, 09:40 AM
change following spells to:

holy sword: only applies to short swords, long swords, bastard swords, and great swords. +2 crit multiplier.

zeal: grants +1% double strike per paladin level.




change following enhancements to:


champion of good: You gain +4 Charisma and +2 wisdom. The bonuses granted by Courage of Heaven are increased by an additional +2. Your attacks now deal 7d6 additional Light damage. Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction. [no longer gives +10 mp]

extra smite: You gain 2/4/6 additional uses of Smite Evil per rest.

exalted smite: Active: An improved smite that adds +1/+2/+4 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier and 0/+1/+2 to your weapon's critical threat range.

empowered smite: Active: Your Smite Evil and Exalted Smite abilities increases Melee Power by 5 for 10 seconds. this effect stacks up to 15 times.

divine sacrifice: This attack deals an additional (1/3/9)d6 Light damage and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1/2/3, but costs you 100/50/25 hp and 50/10/2 sp, whether or not the attack is successful. Light damage scales with 100% Melee Power.

passion: restore one charge of smite evil when divine sacrifice [crits on a roll of 19-20/crits/hits] an enemy. OR chance to restore one charge of smite evil when divine sacrifice hits an enemy; % equal to (paladin level *1/3/5).

censure demons: You gain On roll of 19-20: Stun Chaotic Evil outsiders for 3 seconds.

censure outsiders: Your Censure Demons ability now applies to all Chaotic or Evil outsiders. [no longer gives +5 mp]

holy retribution: use smite evil charge: Executes 3 powerful holy strikes against all targets around you (same AoE as Cleave[this should say momentum swing iirc?]) that deals +4/+7/+10[W] damage with +2 crit multiplier. On Damage: Evil creatures with less than (33*character level/100*character level/200*character level) HP have a 50%/75%/100% chance to be forced to make a WIll save (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod + wisdom mod) or be destroyed. On a successful save, the affected creatures take 100 holy damage (scales with 500% mp) from this attack as well as -6 to all ability scores for ten seconds. (Cooldown: 6 seconds) This ability also recharges one turn undead.






i think this would enable a somewhat different style of gameplay from other melee classes with both high potential and high opportunity cost. this would bring paladins back into relevance as damage builds without giving them advantages in utility or tactical abilities, giving them a defined role without overshadowing other melee classes signature traits. the suggested change to holy sword in combination with the offensive potential of the kotc changes would create a genuine reason for greatswords and longswords to exist and be used in this game.

Paladins do need buffed and shield dmg users need nerfed.

Aelonwy
07-22-2017, 10:37 AM
change following spells to:

holy sword: only applies to short swords, long swords, bastard swords, and great swords. +2 crit multiplier.



I know people won't like this opinion but, frankly, I think they ought to change the name of the spell to Holy Weapon, and have it only effect whatever your deity's chosen weapon happens to be.

the_one_dwarfforged
07-22-2017, 09:58 PM
I know people won't like this opinion but, frankly, I think they ought to change the name of the spell to Holy Weapon, and have it only effect whatever your deity's chosen weapon happens to be.

it would need swash treatment then. i think the main downside of that to me is that race combinations with paladin become super restricted but i guess that isnt necessarily a bad thing.

Arch-Necromancer
07-23-2017, 07:48 AM
I know people won't like this opinion but, frankly, I think they ought to change the name of the spell to Holy Weapon, and have it only effect whatever your deity's chosen weapon happens to be.

I agree, it can be a multiselector like Ascendancy core in Angel of Vengeance FvS tree.

valkrei
07-23-2017, 07:05 PM
I agree, it can be a multiselector like Ascendancy core in Angel of Vengeance FvS tree.

This is to limited. I still wish the exotic weapon feat opened up all exotics. Really lame it doesn't. Especially in a game where rare weapon drops are so limited.

Ralmeth
07-24-2017, 02:55 PM
Interesting...I agree that KoTC needs some work, but I don't understand, nor agree with a number of your proposals. Here are my thoughts:

Holy sword
Why do you want to limit this to the less than ideal weapon types? If it's for flavor, then I think taking a Swashbuckler approach would be better, where the holy sword spell affects the crit range and multiplier to make them all have the same crit range & multiplier. If I'm going THF for example, I would much rather use a great sword because they look very Paladin-like, but great axes and falchions have better crit profiles so that's what I use at the moment. I think changing this to be Swashbuckler-like would be pretty cool.

Zeal
So...you want to penalize multi-classing? I don't agree, and for a 4th level spell it seems like Zeal is in a good spot as is.

Champion of good
Why do you want to add a +2 wisdom? Who cares? Also, why remove the +10 melee power? This change is a nerf to a pure KoTC.

Smites
I personally think that smite evils are pretty lame at the moment. Exhalted smites are only worth it when you crit. I always found it disappointing to use a smite and then the damage isn't that much more than normal. The only thing really good about smites at the moment is the extra MPs and when you get a crit. Instead, I would prefer exhalted smites to be auto-crit so you always get that big punch (regular smites leave as is), but to help balance it give it a cool-down. The extra smites enhancement could be used to reduce the cool-down.

Divine Sacrifice
Back in the day, the extra damage and crit multiplier were helpful, but in today's game the extra DPS is so pitiful I can't remember the last time I used this. I like your idea of increasing the crit muliplier with more APs, but your cost is too much IMHO and essentially forces you to buy all the way to tier 3. Instead, I would prefer to see this ability increase both the crit multiplier and range for each tier, though I think the cost should be 5 HP and 1 SP per tier (so 5/10/15 HP, 1/2/3 SP per use for tiers 1/2/3). That would make spamming this in combat worth it.

Censure abilities
These are lame because they only apply to a small set of mobs that you're going to fight. Instead, these need to be broadened to any evil mob. Without this, spending APs on these means you can only benefit from them a limited amount of time.

Holy Retribution
The currently released version is only useful for a handful of levels, as it will take some time before you are high enough level to take this enhancement, and before mobs have over 1,000 HPs. So this one definitely needs some work, to allow it to scale into epics. Your idea is interesting. I like how the HP cap is raised, though perhaps the damage it does seems a bit over the top. I'd rather see this ability have a simple cool-down, with the DPS it does balanced appropriately.

the_one_dwarfforged
07-24-2017, 08:12 PM
Interesting...I agree that KoTC needs some work, but I don't understand, nor agree with a number of your proposals. Here are my thoughts:

Holy sword
Why do you want to limit this to the less than ideal weapon types? If it's for flavor, then I think taking a Swashbuckler approach would be better, where the holy sword spell affects the crit range and multiplier to make them all have the same crit range & multiplier. If I'm going THF for example, I would much rather use a great sword because they look very Paladin-like, but great axes and falchions have better crit profiles so that's what I use at the moment. I think changing this to be Swashbuckler-like would be pretty cool.

Zeal
So...you want to penalize multi-classing? I don't agree, and for a 4th level spell it seems like Zeal is in a good spot as is.

Champion of good
Why do you want to add a +2 wisdom? Who cares? Also, why remove the +10 melee power? This change is a nerf to a pure KoTC.

Smites
I personally think that smite evils are pretty lame at the moment. Exhalted smites are only worth it when you crit. I always found it disappointing to use a smite and then the damage isn't that much more than normal. The only thing really good about smites at the moment is the extra MPs and when you get a crit. Instead, I would prefer exhalted smites to be auto-crit so you always get that big punch (regular smites leave as is), but to help balance it give it a cool-down. The extra smites enhancement could be used to reduce the cool-down.

Divine Sacrifice
Back in the day, the extra damage and crit multiplier were helpful, but in today's game the extra DPS is so pitiful I can't remember the last time I used this. I like your idea of increasing the crit muliplier with more APs, but your cost is too much IMHO and essentially forces you to buy all the way to tier 3. Instead, I would prefer to see this ability increase both the crit multiplier and range for each tier, though I think the cost should be 5 HP and 1 SP per tier (so 5/10/15 HP, 1/2/3 SP per use for tiers 1/2/3). That would make spamming this in combat worth it.

Censure abilities
These are lame because they only apply to a small set of mobs that you're going to fight. Instead, these need to be broadened to any evil mob. Without this, spending APs on these means you can only benefit from them a limited amount of time.

Holy Retribution
The currently released version is only useful for a handful of levels, as it will take some time before you are high enough level to take this enhancement, and before mobs have over 1,000 HPs. So this one definitely needs some work, to allow it to scale into epics. Your idea is interesting. I like how the HP cap is raised, though perhaps the damage it does seems a bit over the top. I'd rather see this ability have a simple cool-down, with the DPS it does balanced appropriately.

the whole point is to change the game play style of paladin so that it can receive buffs without just being a fighter/barbarian that can cast heals.


holy sword imo has either a stupid name or a stupid effect. i agree that a greatsword is generally more paladin-y than a falchion which is why greatsword is included in the proposed revised holy sword list even though a falchion is still a sword. im not terribly against giving holy sword the swash treatment but i think it comes with some very significant pitfalls in the case of paladin. also, the swash effect is also limited to less than ideal weapon types, and so would a deity based favored weapon version of holy sword, so this argument is kind of moot. the advantage to including greatswords but not great axes or falchions in such a list should be obvious: they would have a reason to exist. i also proposed changing the effect of holy sword to remove the crit range buff and double the crit multiplier buff so that it isnt the standard +1/1 to create a slightly different flavor for the class and also to reinforce the style of dps that the changes would together create for paladins, they hit hard, and while they dont have super crit range, they hit really hard when they do crit.


the change i suggested to zeal is only a buff no matter how many paladin levels you have. the reason i would buff zeal is to compensate for the passive 15 mp that kotc pallies normally have that i suggested removing to increase their dps while at the lower end of the empowered smite stacking, and increasing their ability to come up with some insane burst damage with heavily empowered exalted smite crits which can double strike.


champion of good change would be a nerf in a vaccum. obviously if you didnt read or couldnt understand the other changes i suggested, you would be confused why i would suggest doing such a thing when trying to buff a class. hmm.


auto crit with a cool down is a weak way to buff smites. not much else to say about that.


your suggestion for divine sacrifice "forces" a player to spend ap on the max tier as much as mine does. your perception as to what constitutes an acceptable ability cost vs not in the context of the relative power of the ability seems biased af. if you think (which seems to be the case) that you are going to have an ability which gives +3/3 crit range/multi on a 3 second cd and have it cost no more than 15 hp, you just arent thinking about it at all. my suggestion is infinitely more reasonable and diversifies paladins by focusing on crit multi rather than just blindly buffing their entire crit profile ad infinitum, which was done to other classes throughout the game until it became so ludicrous that a nerf had to be effected (honestly the cores issues surrounding the prevalence and important of crits remains). for the majority of the power in the divine sacrifice i suggest to occur, the paladin would have to actually crit on that attack, and is paying 25 hp and 2 sp just for the attempt at the +3 crit multi. +3 crit multi is a lot though, which means it demands an appropriate opportunity cost. since divine sacrifice only has a 3 second cd, that opportunity cost has to be high enough to actually make the player of a paladin question whether or not its actually worth the cast at a given moment; however it also needs to be low enough that it is usable freely when the **** hasnt hit the fan. 25 hp seems like a cost balanced in a paladins favor considering they come inherently equipped with self healing.


censure demons/evil are very strong in the appropriate content. the appropriate content however is generally not a high enough percentage of what a given player will play for these to be particularly enticing. currently they are effectively a single enhancement which gives 5 mp for 2 ap. kind of underwhelming but a paladin has little choice since its one of only two sources of mp in kotc. with the changes i suggested, it wouldnt be necessary for these enhancements to contain 5 mp, could even be merged into a single enhancement with 2 ranks to create more room for a better/additional enhancement, or at the very least could be skipped over if a paladin player decides that theyre not worth the ap allowing those ap to be spent elsewhere.


the damage should be high on a limited use ability like holy retribution. its not worth stopping auto attacking unless it does a lot of guaranteed damage. once again i further reinforce the emphasis on crit multiplier and not range with this ability. the whole goal of the proposed changes i suggested is to change the gameplay style of paladins while allowing them to deal good damage relative to other classes. the idea is to spam exalted smite and holy retribution instead of focusing so hard on auto attacking, with smites building their mp to +75 class based mp, which is higher than fighters +60. essentially paladins would have more inconsistent dps but be capable of more than a fighter would as well as playing differently by spamming dps attacks instead of relying on super high dc cc abilities and auto attacks. for the unique effect destruction effect of holy retribution to have any relevance, it needs to have its hp threshold scale; i tried to scale it with reaper and heroics in mind as well as cap. also it amuses me that you should comment that the damage i suggest giving it is too high. based on the comments you have made about the relative power of different damage buffs in this thread, i can tell you would not be a good person to balance such things. and if ssg was to balance the +[w] of holy retribution if it simply had a cd instead of using divine might charges, it would simply go from useless to just another cleave to use in aoe situations, which is fine, but id rather make it a staple of paladin gameplay than useless/meh.

Ralmeth
07-24-2017, 10:23 PM
the whole point is to change the game play style of paladin so that it can receive buffs without just being a fighter/barbarian that can cast heals.


holy sword imo has either a stupid name or a stupid effect. i agree that a greatsword is generally more paladin-y than a falchion which is why greatsword is included in the proposed revised holy sword list even though a falchion is still a sword. im not terribly against giving holy sword the swash treatment but i think it comes with some very significant pitfalls in the case of paladin. also, the swash effect is also limited to less than ideal weapon types, and so would a deity based favored weapon version of holy sword, so this argument is kind of moot. the advantage to including greatswords but not great axes or falchions in such a list should be obvious: they would have a reason to exist. i also proposed changing the effect of holy sword to remove the crit range buff and double the crit multiplier buff so that it isnt the standard +1/1 to create a slightly different flavor for the class and also to reinforce the style of dps that the changes would together create for paladins, they hit hard, and while they dont have super crit range, they hit really hard when they do crit.


the change i suggested to zeal is only a buff no matter how many paladin levels you have. the reason i would buff zeal is to compensate for the passive 15 mp that kotc pallies normally have that i suggested removing to increase their dps while at the lower end of the empowered smite stacking, and increasing their ability to come up with some insane burst damage with heavily empowered exalted smite crits which can double strike.


champion of good change would be a nerf in a vaccum. obviously if you didnt read or couldnt understand the other changes i suggested, you would be confused why i would suggest doing such a thing when trying to buff a class. hmm.


auto crit with a cool down is a weak way to buff smites. not much else to say about that.


your suggestion for divine sacrifice "forces" a player to spend ap on the max tier as much as mine does. your perception as to what constitutes an acceptable ability cost vs not in the context of the relative power of the ability seems biased af. if you think (which seems to be the case) that you are going to have an ability which gives +3/3 crit range/multi on a 3 second cd and have it cost no more than 15 hp, you just arent thinking about it at all. my suggestion is infinitely more reasonable and diversifies paladins by focusing on crit multi rather than just blindly buffing their entire crit profile ad infinitum, which was done to other classes throughout the game until it became so ludicrous that a nerf had to be effected (honestly the cores issues surrounding the prevalence and important of crits remains). for the majority of the power in the divine sacrifice i suggest to occur, the paladin would have to actually crit on that attack, and is paying 25 hp and 2 sp just for the attempt at the +3 crit multi. +3 crit multi is a lot though, which means it demands an appropriate opportunity cost. since divine sacrifice only has a 3 second cd, that opportunity cost has to be high enough to actually make the player of a paladin question whether or not its actually worth the cast at a given moment; however it also needs to be low enough that it is usable freely when the **** hasnt hit the fan. 25 hp seems like a cost balanced in a paladins favor considering they come inherently equipped with self healing.


censure demons/evil are very strong in the appropriate content. the appropriate content however is generally not a high enough percentage of what a given player will play for these to be particularly enticing. currently they are effectively a single enhancement which gives 5 mp for 2 ap. kind of underwhelming but a paladin has little choice since its one of only two sources of mp in kotc. with the changes i suggested, it wouldnt be necessary for these enhancements to contain 5 mp, could even be merged into a single enhancement with 2 ranks to create more room for a better/additional enhancement, or at the very least could be skipped over if a paladin player decides that theyre not worth the ap allowing those ap to be spent elsewhere.


the damage should be high on a limited use ability like holy retribution. its not worth stopping auto attacking unless it does a lot of guaranteed damage. once again i further reinforce the emphasis on crit multiplier and not range with this ability. the whole goal of the proposed changes i suggested is to change the gameplay style of paladins while allowing them to deal good damage relative to other classes. the idea is to spam exalted smite and holy retribution instead of focusing so hard on auto attacking, with smites building their mp to +75 class based mp, which is higher than fighters +60. essentially paladins would have more inconsistent dps but be capable of more than a fighter would as well as playing differently by spamming dps attacks instead of relying on super high dc cc abilities and auto attacks. for the unique effect destruction effect of holy retribution to have any relevance, it needs to have its hp threshold scale; i tried to scale it with reaper and heroics in mind as well as cap. also it amuses me that you should comment that the damage i suggest giving it is too high. based on the comments you have made about the relative power of different damage buffs in this thread, i can tell you would not be a good person to balance such things. and if ssg was to balance the +[w] of holy retribution if it simply had a cd instead of using divine might charges, it would simply go from useless to just another cleave to use in aoe situations, which is fine, but id rather make it a staple of paladin gameplay than useless/meh.

I think we're both in agreement that KoTC needs a buff, but we'll just have to disagree on how to best do it.

valkrei
07-27-2017, 10:03 AM
Maybe holy sword should be called holy weapon.