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Steelstar
06-20-2017, 04:53 PM
Hello!


U36 is shaping up to be a very large update, with some great new content, Artificer changes, and a fairly large number of Bug and Quality-of-Life fixes. There are a few of these changes we wanted to let you know about ahead of Lamannia in order to provide some design insight and provide a bit of advanced notice.


Arcane Archer
With U36, the following changes are being made to Arcane Archer (both Elf and Ranger):


Arcane Archer Imbue toggles will only grant their effects while wielding a Longbow or Shortbow.
Arcane Archers must have a Longbow or Shortbow equipped to toggle on the Imbues from that tree. Equipping something other than a Longbow or Shortbow in your main hand will cause Arcane Archer Imbues to toggle off.

(Edit: We've made some changes to how this fix is implemented. See this link (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487447-Upcoming-Systems-Changes-for-U36?p=5987422&viewfull=1#post5987422).)


For a very long time now, it's been possible to use Arcane Archer toggles with weapons that aren't bows. These abilities, by their wording, are only meant to work with Bows, but there are currently ways of getting around that and applying those effects to other weapons. The pass to Rangers circa Update 28 put some changes in place to stop this that were ultimately unsuccessful. We are interested in creating better balance between Bows, Crossbows, and other forms of ranged combat in the long term. In order to make that balance work, we need to finally fix Arcane Archer to work as it is intended to.


Warlocks
With U36, the following changes are being made to Warlocks:


Warlocks now receive Eldritch Blast base dice feats at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (for a total of 6d6 at level 20) instead of their previous progression. Characters will be automatically adjusted to match this new progression.
The Epic Eldritch Blast feat now grants 3d6 to Eldritch Blast.
The Epic Arcane Eldritch Blast Destiny feat now grants 4d6 to Eldritch Blast.
In Enlightened Spirit, Eldritch Burst's additional Light damage is now 1d6.
In Enlightened Spirit, Spirit Blast's additional Light damage is now 4d6.
In Enlightened Spirit, Spiritual Retribution's Light damage on all Eldritch Blasts and Weapon Attacks is now 1d4/2d4/3d4.


Internal and live data gathering has led to the conclusion that Warlock DPS is unquestionably too high in Heroic. It isn't simply a matter of their damage output relative to other classes (which is also too high), it's a matter of their power relative to content and other factors involved in overall game balance. Tuning other classes up to their level isn't an option; Warlock damage in Heroic needs to come down.

The above change alters the levels at which Warlocks add 1d6 to their base Eldritch Blast. On Live currently, when they reach level 20 they have 9d6; this change alters that to 6d6. To balance that against Epics, the two available Eldritch Blast feats have been increased to 3d6 and 4d6 (a net gain of +3d6, the same value that was removed from Heroics). As a result, by the time a Warlock reaches level 26, they can have exactly as many dice as they can get now.

The Enlightened Spirit changes bring the extra damage granted by these abilities closer in line with abilities in other classes. Having playtested with the changes, these abilities remain very potent.


Spell Resistance
With U36, the following changes are being made to Spell Resistance:


Drow and Deep Gnome's Spell Resistance now stacks with all other sources of Spell Resistance.
The majority of item-based sources of Spell Resistance have had their values reduced by about 1/3.
Fury of the Wild's Ward against Weird ability is now a Primal bonus to Spell Resistance (stacking with most other sources) and has new values (5/30/60).


In the U36 cycle, we set out to finally make Drow and Deep Gnome's racial Spell Resistance stack with other sources (as we said we would after the recent Race Tree pass). In analyzing the numbers involved, it came to our attention that the math used to determine what values new Cannith Crafting, new Lootgen, and recent Named Items calculated Spell Resistance at was wrong. As a result, the numbers available were much higher than we were comfortable with before adding in stacking Drow and Deep Gnomes.

With this change, a character without racial SR equipping maximum available sources of SR should be within striking distance of the necessary SR to resist high-difficulty monsters' spells. It will be very difficult (if not impossible at certain ranges) to get a no-fail value on those characters in high difficulties. With Drow and Deep Gnome values now stacking, however, those characters can much more easily compete against enemy spells.


Aggro & Stealth
With U36, the following changes are being made to Aggro and Stealth:


Monsters will take the distance of their targets into account now. Closer targets are more likely to be targeted (assuming they have not yet taken much damage) compared to Live.
If a monster kills or loses their primary target, they’ll now aggro correctly on who has the most hate next (as opposed to the closest target, as they often do now on Live).
Monsters with the “see stealthed” property will now display an angry red eye icon to anyone observing them in stealth. Note: The see through stealth property, aka “tremor sense” is not True Sight or See Invisible. Those abilities don’t actually don’t affect sight checks against players just using the stealth skill. For example, Spiders and Slimes typically have the See Through Stealth property, per 3.5 edition rules. Red- and Purple-name bosses also tend to get this ability.


These changes were the result of listening closely to player feedback and examination of monster AI in regards to stealth gameplay.


Area of Effect Spells
With U36, most Area of Effect spells cast by enemies (such as Ice Storm and Web) now have visible indicators of their boundaries on the ground. This should make more clear where enemy effects begin and end, and improve players' ability to analyze the battlefield.

cru121
06-20-2017, 05:03 PM
In Enlightened Spirit, Spiritual Retribution's Light damage on all Eldritch Blasts is now 1d4/2d4/3d4.

Does it remain at 3d6 as extra weapon damage, or is that portion also toned down to 3d4?

Steelstar
06-20-2017, 05:06 PM
Does it remain at 3d6 as extra weapon damage, or is that portion also toned down to 3d4?

It affects weapons also. Apologies for the omission, updated the OP.

the_one_dwarfforged
06-20-2017, 05:20 PM
i like

QuantumFX
06-20-2017, 05:22 PM
Spell Resistance
With U36, the following changes are being made to Spell Resistance:


Drow and Deep Gnome's Spell Resistance now stacks with all other sources of Spell Resistance.
The majority of item-based sources of Spell Resistance have had their values reduced by about 1/3.
Fury of the Wild's Ward against Weird ability is now a Primal bonus to Spell Resistance (stacking with most other sources) and has new values (5/30/60).


In the U36 cycle, we set out to finally make Drow and Deep Gnome's racial Spell Resistance stack with other sources (as we said we would after the recent Race Tree pass). In analyzing the numbers involved, it came to our attention that the math used to determine what values new Cannith Crafting, new Lootgen, and recent Named Items calculated Spell Resistance at was wrong. As a result, the numbers available were much higher than we were comfortable with before adding in stacking Drow and Deep Gnomes.

With this change, a character without racial SR equipping maximum available sources of SR should be within striking distance of the necessary SR to resist high-difficulty monsters' spells. It will be very difficult (if not impossible at certain ranges) to get a no-fail value on those characters in high difficulties. With Drow and Deep Gnome values now stacking, however, those characters can much more easily compete against enemy spells.


Translation: Hey guys, we’re taking two steps backwards on the whole S.R. thing! Hope you enjoyed it for the few months that we allowed it to factor into your character plans!

Making it “stack” makes zero sense. What you’re telling players is “Have racial S.R., or never expect to see the blue hemispherical again.” What you should be doing is making basic racial S.R. and basic Cannith crafting S.R. the same bonus and have them scale at the same pace. This allows Drow/Deep Gnome characters to skip equipping the basic SR gear, and allows them to buff their SR score thru racial cores.

Ulfo
06-20-2017, 05:23 PM
RIP Drow before with "fix" Darkfire, RIP Elf now with fix AA-imbue. And another Warlock boost (because after "fix" ES tree no one will play ES and turn to more powerful trees ). Nice work...

Grace_ana
06-20-2017, 05:28 PM
Warlocks
With U36, the following changes are being made to Warlocks:


Warlocks now receive Eldritch Blast base dice feats at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (for a total of 6d6 at level 20) instead of their previous progression. Characters will be automatically adjusted to match this new progression.
The Epic Eldritch Blast feat now grants 3d6 to Eldritch Blast.
The Epic Arcane Eldritch Blast Destiny feat now grants 4d6 to Eldritch Blast.
In Enlightened Spirit, Eldritch Burst's additional Light damage is now 1d6.
In Enlightened Spirit, Spirit Blast's additional Light damage is now 4d6.
In Enlightened Spirit, Spiritual Retribution's Light damage on all Eldritch Blasts and Weapon Attacks is now 1d4/2d4/3d4.


Internal and live data gathering has led to the conclusion that Warlock DPS is unquestionably too high in Heroic. It isn't simply a matter of their damage output relative to other classes (which is also too high), it's a matter of their power relative to content and other factors involved in overall game balance. Tuning other classes up to their level isn't an option; Warlock damage in Heroic needs to come down.

The above change alters the levels at which Warlocks add 1d6 to their base Eldritch Blast. On Live currently, when they reach level 20 they have 9d6; this change alters that to 6d6. To balance that against Epics, the two available Eldritch Blast feats have been increased to 3d6 and 4d6 (a net gain of +3d6, the same value that was removed from Heroics). As a result, by the time a Warlock reaches level 26, they can have exactly as many dice as they can get now.

The Enlightened Spirit changes bring the extra damage granted by these abilities closer in line with abilities in other classes.

This is a ridiculously huge nerf. Removing more than half of the light damage?? That's insane. Plus, that damage isn't given back in epics.

I get there is a very loud "we hate warlocks" crowd. Warlock is strong for a caster class, but overall I don't see them being any stronger than other classes than have received their pass. You say you can't bring the power of other classes up to that level, but sorc isn't too far behind, and the proposed domains for cleric would zoom way past where warlocks are on live.

I've played a lot of classes and builds, and warlock wasn't my most powerful. I really think you should reconosider this.

Morroiel
06-20-2017, 05:38 PM
My thoughts / initial impressions:

Arcane archer changes - 8/10 - Overall it has been a long time coming, high rate of fire on shurikens makes elemental imbues flat out broken. The only thing I'd urge you to consider is going the opposite way with this. Streamlining support for elemental imbues on all ranged weapons (cross bows included) -> but allow the base damage die (d2 vs d6, etc) of the weapon used to influence the damage caused by the imbues. This allows for more build options while still allowing you to bring into line shurikens high rate of fire vs bows slow rate of fire. Additionally if you are going to balance ranged builds, you need to also finally create parity between elven tree and ranger tree - I know you are aware of the issue with final strike, if you are going to make arcane archer changes - this needs to be included (as its one of the most influential reasons why shuriken builds have been completely out of balance since the introduction of said ability). Lastly, I would hope that you'd consider reverting your nerf to paralyzing arrow (allowing perma paralysis) due to it no longer being able to be used by shurikens. Shuriken builds need to be brought in line in order for there to be some semblance of balance at endgame.

Warlock changes - 10/10 on ES changes, 4/10 on general warlock blast changes - People don't realize this but warlocks are actually somewhat difficult to play well. I've said my fill with them and that's fine. I think you are missing the real power of warlock in heroic but your changes are inline with what the mob-crowd demands: they think ES is the bees knees, crippling it won't do anything to good warlock players and yet will hopefully tune down the # of warlock threads. I call this a win. I do think making changes like this will negatively impact build diversity in warlocks - you'll still get people who use ES but the % will steadily drop. I'd probably keep in mind that they might need further nerfage on their damage abilities in the ES tree to compensate for some unique/utility buffage elsewhere, bringing Shining through back up 1 notch, etc. On the actual warlock blast changes, you correctly identified the problem: warlocks do too much damage in heroics, on par in epic, and not enough at endgame. I'd recommend using this opportunity to slightly buff their endgame damage by adding 1 or 2 additional blast die in the epic destiny feat. Lastly as a whole, I think these changes are a step in the right direction but you fundamentally missed the biggest reason people play warlock: it is easy to play at a functional level. People will still play warlocks simply because they can't handle reaper on other builds due to their lack of skill / game knowledge. I'd wager the arti and divine passes might pull a few people away from warlock but for the most part your internal data should reflect what I'm saying. People like warlocks in heroic reaper because they do enough damage to clear content fast, they are survivable (especially the ES variants), and ultimately you don't have to understand their full depth to make it through content.

Aggro/Stealth changes - 9/10 - you are going in the right direction and it is good that you are recognizing some of the issues. Stealth play right now is broken - there are enough threads on the matter that I'm not going to get into it. I'd encourage you to look at 3 things (as options for stealth players): 1) please re-evaluate bluff dcs, I thoroughly tested bluff single-mob-pulling at endgame with an adequately maxed bluff skill (152) and I got variable behavior on the same mob, at the same x,y,z coordinate, on the same dice roll. Additionally bluff in reaper seems incredibly useless. 2) auto-fail stealth, ala tremor sense, needs to behave more appropriate to its name: a spider might have tremor sense but then how come the troll next to him knows where I'm at (spiders can't speak troll....), if I'm in wraith form, I'm technically not touching the ground and tremor sense shouldn't work, lastly tremor sense should have an even further reduced range then it currently does. 3) please discontinue making quests that require kill-all mobs to get through barrier; a compromise for this might be that the barrier has to be pulled by a mob (ala alarm) and if a stealth player can avoid aggroing the mobs they can bypass the barrier.

Overall, I like the direction that these changes make but I feel you slightly missed an opportunity with the arcane archer to nerf it in a way that allows build diversity, as well as, missed a huge portion of what makes warlock strong in heroics (though to be honest nerfing ES might be one of my favorite changes in a while just so that people stop putting up a new warlock nerf thread every 2 seconds); additionally, I really like that you've addressed the fact that there are issues with stealth/aggro and are working on fixing it (even if its not the exact fix that I'd like).

Edit: Until I see the actual changes regarding spell resistance numbers and the aoe effect indicator, I'm going to withhold judgement on those.

CThruTheEgo
06-20-2017, 05:39 PM
Overall I like the changes, but I do have a question about this one:


Arcane Archers must have a Longbow or Shortbow equipped to toggle on the Imbues from that tree. Equipping something other than a Longbow or Shortbow in your main hand will cause Arcane Archer Imbues to toggle off.

So every time an AA build swaps to a scroll for healing oneself or others (or a scroll for buffing, or one of the many weapon clickies available, etc.), the imbues must be turned back on again? If that is how it will work, then this is problematic. I understand why you are doing this and I don't disagree with the goal, but this is not a good or viable solution if that is what will happen.

EDIT: And regarding the stealth changes, will an alerted mob share its agro with every other mob in a given range, effectively agroing all those mobs on the stealthed player even when the other mobs have not made a check to detect the stealthed player? That has been the real problem with stealth, and I don't see any mention of that here.

Morroiel
06-20-2017, 05:44 PM
Translation: Hey guys, we’re taking two steps backwards on the whole S.R. thing! Hope you enjoyed it for the few months that we allowed it to factor into your character plans!

Making it “stack” makes zero sense. What you’re telling players is “Have racial S.R., or never expect to see the blue hemispherical again.” What you should be doing is making basic racial S.R. and basic Cannith crafting S.R. the same bonus and have them scale at the same pace. This allows Drow/Deep Gnome characters to skip equipping the basic SR gear, and allows them to buff their SR score thru racial cores.

We haven't seen the actual numbers. What I'd like to see is drows/deep gnomes/monks being able to get no-fail SR, whereas items only provide 35-65%. Eliminating a prefix/suffix slot IS not enough of an advantage for me to go deep gnome, drow - imo.

Morroiel
06-20-2017, 05:49 PM
Overall I like the changes, but I do have a question about this one:



So every time an AA build swaps to a scroll for healing oneself or others (or a scroll for buffing, or one of the many weapon clickies available, etc.), the imbues must be turned back on again? If that is how it will work, then this is problematic. I understand why you are doing this and I don't disagree with the goal, but this is not a good or viable solution if that is what will happen.

EDIT: And regarding the stealth changes, will an alerted mob share its agro with every other mob in a given range, effectively agroing all those mobs on the stealthed player even when the other mobs have not made a check to detect the stealthed player? That has been the real problem with stealth, and I don't see any mention of that here.

I proposed in my feedback a different solution to AA imbues that would allow shurikens and xbow users to still utilize them. You bring up a big point about scrolls - though honestly that could easily be added to the list of allowed weapons. Still this seems like a lot of extra checks, generating lag and server load that wouldn't otherwise have to be there. This makes it even more evident that a solution in the vein that I suggest is more appropriate.

I agree to an extent about aggro sharing, as it is one of the biggest things that has ruined stealth play - however, it makes sense when you are talking about monsters who can talk and point to the stealth-identified player (troll A telling troll B that player is skulking around in the shadows over there, giving him a MASSIVE boost to spot). It does not make sense when you are talking about an elemental and a spider who have no way of talking with one another.

LT218
06-20-2017, 05:55 PM
Warlocks
With U36, the following changes are being made to Warlocks:


Warlocks now receive Eldritch Blast base dice feats at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (for a total of 6d6 at level 20) instead of their previous progression. Characters will be automatically adjusted to match this new progression.
The Epic Eldritch Blast feat now grants 3d6 to Eldritch Blast.
The Epic Arcane Eldritch Blast Destiny feat now grants 4d6 to Eldritch Blast.
In Enlightened Spirit, Eldritch Burst's additional Light damage is now 1d6.
In Enlightened Spirit, Spirit Blast's additional Light damage is now 4d6.
In Enlightened Spirit, Spiritual Retribution's Light damage on all Eldritch Blasts and Weapon Attacks is now 1d4/2d4/3d4.


Internal and live data gathering has led to the conclusion that Warlock DPS is unquestionably too high in Heroic. It isn't simply a matter of their damage output relative to other classes (which is also too high), it's a matter of their power relative to content and other factors involved in overall game balance. Tuning other classes up to their level isn't an option; Warlock damage in Heroic needs to come down.

The above change alters the levels at which Warlocks add 1d6 to their base Eldritch Blast. On Live currently, when they reach level 20 they have 9d6; this change alters that to 6d6. To balance that against Epics, the two available Eldritch Blast feats have been increased to 3d6 and 4d6 (a net gain of +3d6, the same value that was removed from Heroics). As a result, by the time a Warlock reaches level 26, they can have exactly as many dice as they can get now.

The change to Eldritch Blast die progression and epic feats seems like a good solution to shift the power progression from heroics to epics.

However, you essentially reduced Eldritch Burst and Spirit blast damage by ~60% across the board. Maybe that puts it where you want it to be in heroics, but it doesn't seem like you've considered the impact this will have to ES Warlocks in Epics. Your previous statements indicate you think Warlocks were already somewhat balanced in Epics, yet this change will reduce a significant source of their damage output by 60% in those Epics.

For a long time, one of the big complaints about non-warlock caster builds in epics was the lack of caster level capping at 20. You somewhat recently made changes to Epic Destinies to provide a way for casters to increase their caster levels and max caster levels to fix this. It seems to have been a good fix and well-received.

Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast don't scale with level though, so the 2/3 reduction to their damage will persist through through Epics and be a pretty large penalty at end game. There is no Warlock Epic Destiny to increase caster level or damage die for their SLAs. Maybe it would be a good idea to include damage die increases for Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast to the Epic Eldritch Blast and Destiny feats to keep them relevant at end-game? This will retain the reduced power you want in Heroics but allow them to scale for Epics.

In upper Epics, especially in higher skull reaper, evoker Warlocks were already underpowered and there was little reason to run an Enlightened Spirit build. If the changes to the SLAs are left as stated, you'll essentially be further pigeon-holing Warlocks into Tainted Scholars (which was already hands-down the best option anyway) if they want to be effective.

MistaMagic
06-20-2017, 05:56 PM
This is a ridiculously huge nerf. Removing more than half of the light damage?? That's insane. Plus, that damage isn't given back in epics.

I get there is a very loud "we hate warlocks" crowd. Warlock is strong for a caster class, but overall I don't see them being any stronger than other classes than have received their pass. You say you can't bring the power of other classes up to that level, but sorc isn't too far behind, and the proposed domains for cleric would zoom way past where warlocks are on live.

I've played a lot of classes and builds, and warlock wasn't my most powerful. I really think you should reconosider this.

No its about time

dragons1ayer74
06-20-2017, 05:56 PM
U36 Rise of the Nerfs

Wow it is mass nerfs like these that caused my last vacation form the game. Warlocks aren't the problem lack/broken other options and inflated trash mob hitpoints are. Big win for everyone who has all/most of their racials done, more hill to climb for everyone else. Usually I look forward to updates not at all looking forward to this, I never did get to try out a monkacher sigh :(

Gratch
06-20-2017, 05:58 PM
So will current in-use named item/lootgen/cannith crafted automatically reduce their bonus in our inventories/banks/etc? Or is it just that under the covers all new U36+ versions of SR beneficial items will use a new "SR+ effect type" and only that new "SR+ effect type" will stack with Drow/Gnome's SR?

SHOULD I BE CRAFTING SR GEAR FOR MY NonDROW/GNOMEs NOW NOW NOW? :)

I didn't know if you could scale already created/crafted gear. What about much older SR gear (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Belt_of_Braided_Beards) before the great-upwards-cannith-redo-rescaling? Will those also be scaled by 66%? Will the divine spell "Spell Resistance" also stack with racial sources as though it's an item replacement? How does Monk's Diamond Soul fit into the equation?

Steelstar
06-20-2017, 05:59 PM
So every time an AA build swaps to a scroll for healing oneself or others (or a scroll for buffing, or one of the many weapon clickies available, etc.), the imbues must be turned back on again? If that is how it will work, then this is problematic. I understand why you are doing this and I don't disagree with the goal, but this is not a good or viable solution if that is what will happen.


We're working on letting Wands and Scrolls work through this without turning the toggles off.

Morroiel
06-20-2017, 06:04 PM
The change to Eldritch Blast die progression and epic feats seems like a good way to shift the power progression from heroics to epics. Not bad at all.

However, you essentially reduced Eldritch Burst and Spirit blast damage by ~60% across the board. Maybe that puts it where you want it to be in heroics, but it doesn't seem like you've considered the impact this will have to ES Warlocks in Epics. Your previous statements indicate you think Warlocks were already somewhat balanced in Epics, yet this change will reduce a primary source of their damage output by 60% in those Epics.

For a long time, one of the big complaints about non-warlock caster builds in epics was the noticeable drop-off of power progression due to the scaling stopping at 20. You somewhat recently made changes to Epic Destinies to provide a way for casters to increase their caster levels and max caster levels to fix this.

Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast also don't scale with level though, so the 2/3 reduction to their damage will persist through through Epics and be a pretty large penalty at end game. There is no Warlock Epic Destiny to increase caster level or damage die for their SLAs. Maybe it would be a good idea to include damage die increases for Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast to the Epic Eldritch Blast and Destiny feats to keep them relevant at end-game? This will retain the reduced power you want in Heroics but allow them to scale for Epics.

ES should be weaker than other casters trees from a dps perspective due to the survivability that it brings. I think 60% might be a tiny bit too harsh but honestly I'd rather them hit them too hard than not hard enough. Finally shut up all the people clamoring for a nerf without realizing that ES is just a crutch for bad players. I do think that this nerf is a bit harsh hollistically, and I would hope that the nerf in damage (which I think is justified) will be compensated by a buff in survivability (maybe bringing shining through back up 1 notch). Ultimately nerfs and buffs to enhancement trees should be trying to create diversity in builds by amping up the strengths of the tree and toning down the parts of the tree which aren't inherent in the build/character fantasy.

Warlocks in general suffer at endgame dps wise -> compensatory buffs (further than what steelstar proposed) for the level 26 destiny feat would be a good way to increase all warlock dps from level 26-30 without affecting the heroic and low epic warlocks. Additionally altering the spell power scaling might be worth looking into.

Bluebird6757
06-20-2017, 06:05 PM
So I guess epic starts at level 26 now?

If you're going to nerf to the ground things that are too powerful in heroics, you really need to start with epic past life feats. And Cannith crafting. And green steel crafting. I've been in plenty of groups where toons with non-warlock classes zipped through the content without any trouble, there was NO reason for the warlock nerfing. Meanwhile, the warlocks are still pretty weak in epics, now VERY weak before 26 and only a bit better after. Update 36 will make me want to play DDO a lot less, time to start looking for a new game.

So you take the most popular class and nerf it heavily? What game has that ever been good for???

CThruTheEgo
06-20-2017, 06:07 PM
We're working on letting Wands and Scrolls work through this without turning the toggles off.

Awesome! Great to hear that. Thank you Steel.

Morroiel
06-20-2017, 06:09 PM
Hello!
U36 is shaping up to be a very large update, with some great new content, Artificer changes, and a fairly large number of Bug and Quality-of-Life fixes. There are a few of these changes we wanted to let you know about ahead of Lamannia in order to provide some design insight and provide a bit of advanced notice.


Wow don't know how I missed this first time reading: No mention of cleric/fvs tree changes, cleric domains, turn undead changes or a divine pass at all - is this intentional? Has this been shifted to another update or later U36 patch?

Maelodic
06-20-2017, 06:11 PM
So I guess epic starts at level 26 now?

If you're going to nerf to the ground things that are too powerful in heroics, you really need to start with epic past life feats. And Cannith crafting. And green steel crafting. I've been in plenty of groups where toons with non-warlock classes zipped through the content without any trouble, there was NO reason for the warlock nerfing. Meanwhile, the warlocks are still pretty weak in epics, now VERY weak before 26 and only a bit better after. Update 36 will make me want to play DDO a lot less, time to start looking for a new game.

So you take the most popular class and nerf it heavily? What game has that ever been good for???

I want to say that it's only the most popular class because it's easy to past life grind on it.

Lynnabel
06-20-2017, 06:13 PM
Wow don't know how I missed this first time reading: No mention of cleric/fvs tree changes, cleric domains, turn undead changes or a divine pass at all - is this intentional? Has this been shifted to another update or later U36 patch?

Divine Pass was always not U36. U36 is Arti stuff, QoL stuff, and balance/aggro/stealth etc for systems. Ravenloft is not U36 or the divine pass, it's something else as well. All is proceeding as planned!

Morroiel
06-20-2017, 06:19 PM
Divine Pass was always not U36. U36 is Arti stuff, QoL stuff, and balance/aggro/stealth etc for systems. Ravenloft is not U36 or the divine pass, it's something else as well. All is proceeding as planned!

Ah I see sorry, faulty memory could have sworn a dev mentioned it was slotted for U36. Accidentally got my hopes up to play a fvs soon-ish.

Hutoth
06-20-2017, 06:19 PM
Hello!
Hello!


Internal and live data gathering has led to the conclusion that Warlock DPS is unquestionably too high in Heroic.
this space intentionally left blank (http://www.joebrower.com/PHILE_PILE/ANIM_GIF/FR/anim_schadenfreude.gif)


Drow and Deep Gnome's Spell Resistance now stacks with all other sources of Spell Resistance.
Great! Although maybe too great.


The majority of item-based sources of Spell Resistance have had their values reduced by about 1/3.
Less great. Maybe too less great.



Ward against Weird is now 5/30/60.
Is that meant to be 15/30/60?


changes are being made to Aggro and Stealth.
Needs more work.

Theory: Solid B
Prac: TBC

Thanks Steel!

ComicRelief
06-20-2017, 06:26 PM
*snip*
Area of Effect Spells
With U36, most Area of Effect spells cast by enemies (such as Ice Storm and Web) now have visible indicators of their boundaries on the ground. This should make more clear where enemy effects begin and end, and improve players' ability to analyze the battlefield.

Personally, I don't think this is needed (even if they do have something like this over in LotRO). That said, I'm not necessarily opposed to it, either.
;)

ComicRelief
06-20-2017, 06:29 PM
Divine Pass was always not U36. U36 is Arti stuff, QoL stuff, and balance/aggro/stealth etc for systems. Ravenloft is not U36 or the divine pass, it's something else as well. All is proceeding as planned!

*Tsk* *Tsk* You forgot to add an evil laugh...BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
;)

Theolin
06-20-2017, 06:43 PM
I would like to congratulate you all on making ES warlocks completely useless in epics, way to go, thanks.

You basically removed 1/3 of the damage a ES could do with the "warlock" part of their build, and they were far from the top dps out there.

As to where I am coming from: I have probably one of the most powerful ES warlocks on the server I play on & I know what builds completely ROLF stomp me in terms of power. I know it looks like they are very powerful when built correctly & if you know how to mix it them with the correct stuff from epic destinies.(big hint here I get 50%-60% of my damage from Destiny abilities not warlock abilities)

I can tell you this I will now not be playing warlocks any more(I don't like the other trees for play-style) as you took them from doable for high level EEs to such a time sync that there are many many better builds to play. You have moved them from tier 2 DPS to tier 3 .... congrats ......

Gratch
06-20-2017, 06:49 PM
Personally, I don't think this is needed (even if they do have something like this over in LotRO). That said, I'm not necessarily opposed to it, either.
;)

I'd make AOE pull-me-out-of-the-game-outlines be an optional setting. Enabled by default for newbs. Though guess maybe it depends on how close it melds to the spell fx coloring/look or if it's vibrant neon purple outlining (with blue-hair, rocket boots, and GIANT eyes).

Paisheng
06-20-2017, 07:02 PM
No mention of monks SR also stacking? Monk's ki and mind discipline don't take effect til level 13, but at such any race then could receive further stacking by taking 13 levels of monk. Isn't their long training of mental focus equivalent to racial resistance? I hope you include them in the U36 update for having stacking SR!

Mr_Helmet
06-20-2017, 07:06 PM
Nerfs are a good start, but monks need some nerfing as well.

And fix wolves, they've been broken forever.

zehnvhex
06-20-2017, 07:08 PM
+1 to what others have said about warlock. Kudos for finally dealing with the OP nature of them in heroics, minus several million cool points for not buffing them at end game as compensation.

Buck up boys, looks like 6 arti/6 fighter gonna be the new heroic ezmoad hotness.

Gargoyle69
06-20-2017, 07:14 PM
This was obviously some of the super-secret, mega-exciting stuff that Lynnabel was saying she couldn't talk about :-)


Arcane Archer

Great to see this fix. Shame for my shuricannon's, but good to see the gap being closed as it should be.


Warlocks

I think this is well done. Delaying some of the damage until epics would help address the issue in heroic levels without bringing their damage down in epics. Also, toning down the damage from ES is a good move IMHO, as the defensiveness from ES should be a meaningful choice that contrasts with the higher damage from the other trees, this change enhances that choice.


Spell Resistance

This looks great for Gnomes & Drow, but what about monks ? Will their SR act in the same way ? I certainly hope so ..... Otherwise monk SR will be not in a good place whereas the others will be.


Aggro & Stealth

I'm so excited to hear you say this, that's is FANTASTIC news. Now I think we just need a few more things and I think stealth will return to a good place: 1) a look at how mobs communicate aggro information / location to their allies. Mobs with tremorsense and reapers shouldn't be able to automatically communicate your exact location, it should place mobs into search mode, and 2) you should still be able to reset aggro with invis & stealth if you break line of sight and if the mobs cannot see through those things, returning them to search mode.


Area of Effect Spells

This is a great QoL fix, thank you.

I'm assuming the answer will be no for now (but hey, you gotta ask .... ) but any chance of getting this same thing added to melee mobs cleaves so that melee players can have a chance to move out of it ?

Great work Steel, I'm impressed, excited and relieved about these changes.

Arctigis
06-20-2017, 07:14 PM
Hello!
Warlocks
With U36, the following changes are being made to Warlocks:


Warlocks now receive Eldritch Blast base dice feats at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (for a total of 6d6 at level 20) instead of their previous progression. Characters will be automatically adjusted to match this new progression.
The Epic Eldritch Blast feat now grants 3d6 to Eldritch Blast.
The Epic Arcane Eldritch Blast Destiny feat now grants 4d6 to Eldritch Blast.
In Enlightened Spirit, Eldritch Burst's additional Light damage is now 1d6.
In Enlightened Spirit, Spirit Blast's additional Light damage is now 4d6.
In Enlightened Spirit, Spiritual Retribution's Light damage on all Eldritch Blasts and Weapon Attacks is now 1d4/2d4/3d4.


Internal and live data gathering has led to the conclusion that Warlock DPS is unquestionably too high in Heroic. It isn't simply a matter of their damage output relative to other classes (which is also too high), it's a matter of their power relative to content and other factors involved in overall game balance. Tuning other classes up to their level isn't an option; Warlock damage in Heroic needs to come down.

The above change alters the levels at which Warlocks add 1d6 to their base Eldritch Blast. On Live currently, when they reach level 20 they have 9d6; this change alters that to 6d6. To balance that against Epics, the two available Eldritch Blast feats have been increased to 3d6 and 4d6 (a net gain of +3d6, the same value that was removed from Heroics). As a result, by the time a Warlock reaches level 26, they can have exactly as many dice as they can get now.

The Enlightened Spirit changes bring the extra damage granted by these abilities closer in line with abilities in other classes. Having playtested with the changes, these abilities remain very potent.


BS; you've just listened to the whiners. Again. You realise these changes affect epic levels too -
where ES Warlock DPS is average at best?

You honestly think a 300% reduction in Eldritch Burst light damage (3d6 -> 1d6) and a 250% reduction in Spirit
Blast light damage (10d6 -> 4d6) is even remotely reasonable? It's a huge nerf to a bursting Warlock.

Well, congrats to all those who already got their racial past lives done and I hope the crabs are super happy
in their bucket. For everyone else, I apologise, this always happens when I return to play this game. I've
now cancelled both my subs and will quit again - things should hopefully get better. Yes, you could have
my stuff if it wasn't all BTC and BTA and I could stomach logging on to give it to you.

I would say see you in 18 months or so but somehow I don't think that will be an option.

generalfoley
06-20-2017, 07:18 PM
Why can't we ever have nice things

Qezuzu
06-20-2017, 07:22 PM
Aggro & Stealth
With U36, the following changes are being made to Aggro and Stealth:


Monsters will take the distance of their targets into account now. Closer targets are more likely to be targeted (assuming they have not yet taken much damage) compared to Live.
If a monster kills or loses their primary target, they’ll now aggro correctly on who has the most hate next (as opposed to the closest target, as they often do now on Live).
Monsters with the “see stealthed” property will now display an angry red eye icon to anyone observing them in stealth. Note: The see through stealth property, aka “tremor sense” is not True Sight or See Invisible. Those abilities don’t actually don’t affect sight checks against players just using the stealth skill. For example, Spiders and Slimes typically have the See Through Stealth property, per 3.5 edition rules. Red- and Purple-name bosses also tend to get this ability.


These changes were the result of listening closely to player feedback and examination of monster AI in regards to stealth gameplay.

It's nice to see that this is on your radar. A couple questions:

"If a monster kills or loses their primary target, they’ll now aggro correctly on who has the most hate next (as opposed to the closest target, as they often do now on Live)"

Can you clarify "loses their primary target?" Because there's two different ways a monster can lose a player: they lose the player's location, or they forget about the player.

A big gripe of mine with the current system is that mobs will not forget about a sneaking player that they "found" through shared aggro, even with other players around them.

This is what I've been using as an example (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTJ5ukSKDA0). At 0:07 the mobs are alerted to my presence, but immediately "lose" me because they didn't succeed on their own spot check. When I attempt to assassinate them a full 17 seconds later, they were still searching for me despite multiple other players being around them, and also damaging them slightly. I know for a fact that they would have kept going for the full 30 seconds it takes for them to stop searching.

Is this what you're changing? Because "lose their primary target" could also mean "when the mob has finished doing its 30-second search behavior, then it will move to whoever has the most hate next." If it's the former situation you're fixing, serious props because that is IMO one of the biggest issues affecting stealth.

Next question: will you ever entertain the idea of adjusting Reapers in how they handle sneaking players? Right now I think they are way too punishing and prevent a player from doing anything useful with sneak. Randomly placed "see stealthed" mobs are just really, really tough to deal with. I made a thread yesterday outlining my issues with them and the ways stealth can be used in a group. This could be removing their see-stealthed ability, disallowing them to share their aggro, reducing their cone of vision, giving them auto-succed on listen but not spot, etc. etc., but right now they're the absolute bane of anyone who wants to play as a sneaky rogue/other class. And not bane as in "oh this guy is pretty tough," bane as in they completely invalidate how I and others wanted to player in reaper.

This is especially important now that mobs will properly account for distance when choosing targets. Right now sneaking's only purpose was Assassinate and avoiding aggro from mobs that strangely make a beeline for whoever is in the back of the party. Now sneaking really only has one purpose, at least in reaper. I have to ask: how do you see players using the sneak skill?

Morroiel
06-20-2017, 07:27 PM
It's nice to see that this is on your radar. A couple questions:

"If a monster kills or loses their primary target, they’ll now aggro correctly on who has the most hate next (as opposed to the closest target, as they often do now on Live)"

Can you clarify "loses their primary target?" Because there's two different ways a monster can lose a player: they lose the player's location, or they forget about the player.

A big gripe of mine with the current system is that mobs will not forget about a sneaking player that they "found" through shared aggro, even with other players around them.

This is what I've been using as an example (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTJ5ukSKDA0). At 0:07 the mobs are alerted to my presence, but immediately "lose" me because they didn't succeed on their own spot check. When I attempt to assassinate them a full 17 seconds later, they were still searching for me despite multiple other players being around them, and also damaging them slightly. I know for a fact that they would have kept going for the full 30 seconds it takes for them to stop searching.

Is this what you're changing? Because "lose their primary target" could also mean "when the mob has finished doing its 30-second search behavior, then it will move to whoever has the most hate next." If it's the former situation you're fixing, serious props because that is IMO one of the biggest issues affecting stealth.

Next question: will you ever entertain the idea of adjusting Reapers in how they handle sneaking players? Right now I think they are way too punishing and prevent a player from doing anything useful with sneak. Randomly placed "see stealthed" mobs are just really, really tough to deal with. I made a thread yesterday outlining my issues with them and the ways stealth can be used in a group. This could be removing their see-stealthed ability, disallowing them to share their aggro, reducing their cone of vision, giving them auto-succed on listen but not spot, etc. etc., but right now they're the absolute bane of anyone who wants to play as a sneaky rogue/other class. And not bane as in "oh this guy is pretty tough," bane as in they completely invalidate how I and others wanted to player in reaper.

This is especially important now that mobs will properly account for distance when choosing targets. Right now sneaking's only purpose was Assassinate and avoiding aggro from mobs that strangely make a beeline for whoever is in the back of the party. Now sneaking really only has one purpose, at least in reaper. I have to ask: how do you see players using the sneak skill?

One thing that I'd really like to see is shadow form in shadowdancer bypass tremor sense. This would be a small buff to shadowdancer, allowing for people to focus on stealth / assassinate playstyle if they want. (I'd also like wraith form to work similarly but I'd settle just for shadow form).

Gargoyle69
06-20-2017, 07:37 PM
One thing that I'd really like to see is shadow form in shadowdancer bypass tremor sense. This would be a small buff to shadowdancer, allowing for people to focus on stealth / assassinate playstyle if they want. (I'd also like wraith form to work similarly but I'd settle just for shadow form).

+1 for this suggestion.

Really, you're floating, how can you be detected by Tremorsense?

Would make it a great choice for anyone wanting to focus on stealth play. Would give people more reason to play in Shadowdancer too.

TBH I agree it should work in wraith form too. I would love to see that change.

blerkington
06-20-2017, 07:46 PM
+1 for this suggestion.

Really, you're floating, how can you be detected by Tremorsense?

Would make it a great choice for anyone wanting to focus on stealth play. Would give people more reason to play in Shadowdancer too.

If this were added, I'd prefer to see it in the final core ability of shadowdancer. But I think it's too strong and would prefer to see tremorsense reworked instead.

It's very good to see some work being done on stealth/aggro, so well done there. I'd have to see how it plays before giving it a thumbs up or down.

Thanks.

Morroiel
06-20-2017, 07:50 PM
If this were added, I'd prefer to see it in the final core ability of shadowdancer. But in truth, I think it's too strong to be added anywhere.

Thanks.

What difference does it make if its a T6 or autogrant final core in shadowdancer? One thing to keep in mind is it thematically fits shadow form, since you are floating and wouldn't provide any stimulus for tremor sense to work.

Why do you view the ability to bypass tremor sense as too strong? (especially when balanced with the fact that you can't be in LD)

Six_Gun
06-20-2017, 07:55 PM
It's almost as if you guys at SSG are intentionally trying to drive players away from your game. I guess having only a couple hundred people left playing on each server is just too many.

Well, I hope all the whiners and complainers really enjoy playing solo.

elvesunited
06-20-2017, 08:02 PM
However, you essentially reduced Eldritch Burst and Spirit blast damage by ~60% across the board.

Spirit Burst and spirit blast damage does at level 26th ( given both feats ):

Eldritch Blast: 13d6
Pact Damage: 10d4
burst/blast light: 1d6 ( down 66% ) or 4d6 ( down 60% )
spritiual retribution: 3d4 ( down 29% )
celestrial spirit: 3d6

Spirit Burst Average damage before: 22d6 + 10d4 ( 103 Avg )
Spirit Burst Average damage after: 17d6 + 13d4 ( 92 Avg )

Spirit Blast Average damage before: 29d6 + 10d4 ( 126 Avg )
Spirit Blast Average damage after: 20d6 + 13d4 ( 102 Avg )

So Spirit Burst down 9% and Spirit Blast down 19%
It's a nerf but it isn't nerf death to Enlightened Spirit warlocks
They will survive. I'm not going to reincarnate mine into something else.



In upper Epics, especially in higher skull reaper, evoker Warlocks were already underpowered and there was little reason to run an Enlightened Spirit build.

All melee types suffer and die in high skull reaper. Enlightened spirits may only be quasi melee but they still have to stand way too close to enemies that do way too much damage in a single strike through high PRR. That's just the way the reaper crumbles.

Qezuzu
06-20-2017, 08:04 PM
Spirit Burst and spirit blast damage does at level 26th ( given both feats ):

Eldritch Blast: 13d6
Pact Damage: 10d4
burst/blast light: 1d6 ( down 66% ) or 4d6 ( down 60% )
spritiual retribution: 3d4 ( down 29% )
celestrial spirit: 3d6

Spirit Burst Average damage before: 22d6 + 10d4 ( 103 Avg )
Spirit Burst Average damage after: 17d6 + 13d4 ( 92 Avg )

Spirit Blast Average damage before: 29d6 + 10d4 ( 126 Avg )
Spirit Blast Average damage after: 20d6 + 13d4 ( 102 Avg )

So Spirit Burst down 9% and Spirit Blast down 19%
It's a nerf but it isn't nerf death to Enlightened Spirit warlocks
They will survive. I'm not going to reincarnate mine into something else.




All melee types suffer and die in high skull reaper. Enlightened spirits may only be quasi melee but they still have to stand way too close to enemies that do way too much damage in a single strike through high PRR. That's just the way the reaper crumbles.

Thank you for some actual math and not reactionary nonsense.

Morroiel
06-20-2017, 08:13 PM
Spirit Burst and spirit blast damage does at level 26th ( given both feats ):

Spirit Burst Average damage before: 22d6 + 10d4 ( 103 Avg )
Spirit Burst Average damage after: 17d6 + 13d4 ( 92 Avg )

Spirit Blast Average damage before: 29d6 + 10d4 ( 126 Avg )
Spirit Blast Average damage after: 20d6 + 13d4 ( 102 Avg )


Thanks for actually being rationale and putting up math. However, your assumptions are a bit flawed: pact damage (especially fey and fiend) becomes less influential the higher level you are due to imbalance in fortitude,reflex saves and scaling of evocation dcs for warlocks. At best you can expect your pact damage to land 95% of the time for full -> meaning that you do on average at best 97.5% of that pact damage. In reality, ES builds often dump charisma and evocation dcs (and even builds that don't do this rarely focus on pumping them up): meaning that the light damage represents a significantly higher % than your math indicates.

Some things that I expect to see from warlocks continuing to go ES in epics/endgame: greater emphasis on charisma (losing some tankiness), greater emphasis on evocation dcs (aiming for at the very least mid 80s), and a greater number of GOO warlocks as will saves are usually lower than fort/reflex saves. All of these things (besides shifting to goo) are good results, and they speak to the fact that these warlock nerfs are healthy for a caster class (who should be focusing on dcs).

blerkington
06-20-2017, 08:22 PM
What difference does it make if its a T6 or autogrant final core in shadowdancer? One thing to keep in mind is it thematically fits shadow form, since you are floating and wouldn't provide any stimulus for tremor sense to work.

Why do you view the ability to bypass tremor sense as too strong? (especially when balanced with the fact that you can't be in LD)

The difference is that not everyone running in SD takes wraith form. Some of the abilities in that part of the tree are somewhat buggy. I avoid them myself and don't think we should be forced to spend points there for what would be an indispensable ability.

Although your suggestion does fit nicely with the wraith theme, I don't think that should be the main consideration for deciding where to put this ability if it is added. It could just as easily be called something like 'light step' and added to the weak final core. But either way I think it's too strong.

Turning off tremorsense would make stealth very much stronger than it is now. It's one of the few tools the developers have to challenge stealth players aside from packing monsters into areas so small there is no room to move past them or pull them away from the main group.

I'd prefer to see reapers lose tremorsense but gain high spot and listen scores that scale appropriately with difficulty settings. I'd also like the alert provided by un- and semi-intelligent tremorsensing monsters to their allies become a general indication that an enemy is present putting them into search mode, not an exact location. A detecting monster could still attack and knock us out of stealth though, if it can reach us.

If those changes were made, they could probably leave the larger than normal detection radius alone, along with not changing that tremorsense only seems to detect people in stealth, not people moving out of stealth no matter how noisy they are (eg, running around in plate mail). That is silly, but less of an issue if these other adjustments are made.

Anyway, I would love to see more discussion of this by you and the other committed stealth players with an intelligent contribution to make. Hopefully we will get that and also some time to playtest on the understanding that further changes could still be made.

Thanks for your thoughts.

JOTMON
06-20-2017, 08:44 PM
I would have liked to have seen the pact stances change the eldritch damage to the element from the pact.
~active Fiend Pact changes all eldritch damage to fire damage.(unless utterdark toggle is activated)
would make things more interesting with pact focus... like turning off pact stance when facing certain element mobs.


I can see the reduction in Eldritch damage for heroics, but it is not balanced back in Epics, that only balances if you take those 2 focused epic feats.
Would have liked to have seen the Epic Feats actually give more.


Change to spell resistance appears like it screws any non-racial spell resistant races.
Retroactively reducing the spell resistance of existing gear by 1/3 and making the racial spell resistance unique and stacking without giving other races a way to obtain the racial equivalent drops the non-special races SR max below the mob CR+d20 range.. effectively screwing SR for everyone else..

..will fall down to Lamannia testing of course.. just my initial observation.

Tlorrd
06-20-2017, 08:46 PM
Warlocks
With U36, the following changes are being made to Warlocks:


Warlocks now receive Eldritch Blast base dice feats at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (for a total of 6d6 at level 20) instead of their previous progression. Characters will be automatically adjusted to match this new progression.
The Epic Eldritch Blast feat now grants 3d6 to Eldritch Blast.
The Epic Arcane Eldritch Blast Destiny feat now grants 4d6 to Eldritch Blast.
In Enlightened Spirit, Eldritch Burst's additional Light damage is now 1d6.
In Enlightened Spirit, Spirit Blast's additional Light damage is now 4d6.
In Enlightened Spirit, Spiritual Retribution's Light damage on all Eldritch Blasts and Weapon Attacks is now 1d4/2d4/3d4.


Internal and live data gathering has led to the conclusion that Warlock DPS is unquestionably too high in Heroic. It isn't simply a matter of their damage output relative to other classes (which is also too high), it's a matter of their power relative to content and other factors involved in overall game balance. Tuning other classes up to their level isn't an option; Warlock damage in Heroic needs to come down.

The above change alters the levels at which Warlocks add 1d6 to their base Eldritch Blast. On Live currently, when they reach level 20 they have 9d6; this change alters that to 6d6. To balance that against Epics, the two available Eldritch Blast feats have been increased to 3d6 and 4d6 (a net gain of +3d6, the same value that was removed from Heroics). As a result, by the time a Warlock reaches level 26, they can have exactly as many dice as they can get now.

The Enlightened Spirit changes bring the extra damage granted by these abilities closer in line with abilities in other classes. Having playtested with the changes, these abilities remain very potent.

So basically I've garnered that you are now pigeonholing ES based Warlocks into taking those 2 epic feats to get "back" to their original power pre-nerf. That seems to take away from build diversity, not expand on it. And since it seems the consensus is that ES Warlock DPS in epics is already sub-par, you've basically kept it sub-par and have them HAVE TO TAKE those 2 feats to not be even more useless DPS wise.

Seems like U36 is should be named the Nerf Bat that Flew out of Ravenloft's Cave.

EllisDee37
06-20-2017, 08:47 PM
Just so I'm clear:

Paladin Divine Might is typed as an insightful strength bonus. This frees up a gear slot!
Racial Spell Resistance fully stacks with everything. Other races can go pound sand.


Not a fan. Leave items as-is, and type racial spell resistance as Insightful. It frees up a gear slot (much like divine might) and it stays ahead of insightful items assuming you get racial SR from epic levels:

ML10: +9 Insightful Spell Resistance from crafted item, +10 racial Spell Resistance
ML12: +10 crafted, +11 racial
ML13: +11 crafted, +13 racial
ML15: +12 crafted, +15 racial
ML17: +13 crafted, +17 racial
ML18: +14 crafted, +18 racial
ML19: +15 crafted, +19 racial
ML21: +16 crafted, +21 racial
ML22: +17 crafted, +22 racial
ML24: +18 crafted, +24 racial
ML25: +19 crafted, +25 racial
ML27: +20 crafted, +27 racial
ML28: +21 crafted, +28 racial
ML30: +22 crafted, +30 racial
PL31: +23 crafted, +30 racial
PL33: +24 crafted, +30 racial
PL34: +25 crafted, +30 racial

This seems so obvious and so perfect that I'm sure you guys never even considered it. And now that you've publicly posted your plan it's of course too late to make any meaningful change.

Booooo on yet another bad design decision.

elvesunited
06-20-2017, 09:03 PM
Thanks for actually being rationale and putting up math. However, your assumptions are a bit flawed: pact damage (especially fey and fiend) becomes less influential the higher level you are due to imbalance in fortitude,reflex saves and scaling of evocation dcs for warlocks. At best you can expect your pact damage to land 95% of the time for full -> meaning that you do on average at best 97.5% of that pact damage. In reality, ES builds often dump charisma and evocation dcs (and even builds that don't do this rarely focus on pumping them up): meaning that the light damage represents a significantly higher % than your math indicates.

Some things that I expect to see from warlocks continuing to go ES in epics/endgame: greater emphasis on charisma (losing some tankiness), greater emphasis on evocation dcs (aiming for at the very least mid 80s), and a greater number of GOO warlocks as will saves are usually lower than fort/reflex saves. All of these things (besides shifting to goo) are good results, and they speak to the fact that these warlock nerfs are healthy for a caster class (who should be focusing on dcs).

Even if the enemy makes its save every time for half pact damage. It's still
12% drop in damage for spirit burst and 21% drop in damage for spirit blast.

There are other factors as well as course. Like many enemies being resistant or outright immune to fire damage. Or enemies avoiding sonic damage entirely through evasion. Also that spellpower for pact damage for light damage is given a higher priority than pact damage. But the percentage doesn't change that much.

My enlightened spirit warlock is one of those GOO constitution maxed ( charisma second ) warlocks. This won't be enough to get me to change my stats or equipment ( which is more tank based) around. For me the ability to stay in combat longer and score more hits exceeds the extra damage that maxing charisma and DC would get me. ( I don't ignore it, it's just secondary )


So basically I've garnered that you are now pigeonholing ES based Warlocks into taking those 2 epic feats to get "back" to their original power pre-nerf. That seems to take away from build diversity, not expand on it. And since it seems the consensus is that ES Warlock DPS in epics is already sub-par, you've basically kept it sub-par and have them HAVE TO TAKE those 2 feats to not be even more useless DPS wise.

I don't know about other ES warlocks, but mine does just fine in the damage department. I may not have the highest charisma or DC put I pump that spellpower. And it never occurred to me not to take the two feats. Even at the current +4d6 that's still a healthy increase in Eldritch damage.

Faltout
06-20-2017, 09:05 PM
Area of Effect Spells
With U36, most Area of Effect spells cast by enemies (such as Ice Storm and Web) now have visible indicators of their boundaries on the ground. This should make more clear where enemy effects begin and end, and improve players' ability to analyze the battlefield.
Can you also take a look at the area radius of effects such as canon blasts (demonstrated in Precious Cargo), dragon fireballs or other bombardment like DoJ? They seem to have a much bigger area of effect than indicated on the ground.

Arctigis
06-20-2017, 09:08 PM
Spirit Burst and spirit blast damage does at level 26th ( given both feats ):

Eldritch Blast: 13d6
Pact Damage: 10d4
burst/blast light: 1d6 ( down 66% ) or 4d6 ( down 60% )
spritiual retribution: 3d4 ( down 29% )
celestrial spirit: 3d6

Spirit Burst Average damage before: 22d6 + 10d4 ( 103 Avg )
Spirit Burst Average damage after: 17d6 + 13d4 ( 92 Avg )

Spirit Blast Average damage before: 29d6 + 10d4 ( 126 Avg )
Spirit Blast Average damage after: 20d6 + 13d4 ( 102 Avg )

So Spirit Burst down 9% and Spirit Blast down 19%
It's a nerf but it isn't nerf death to Enlightened Spirit warlocks
They will survive. I'm not going to reincarnate mine into something else.




All melee types suffer and die in high skull reaper. Enlightened spirits may only be quasi melee but they still have to stand way too close to enemies that do way too much damage in a single strike through high PRR. That's just the way the reaper crumbles.

Umm, nice try.

The 'changes' are suggested to counter power in heroic levels. Thanks
for demonstrating that epic is nerfed also - when it needed to be buffed.

Redo your calcs for L12

It would've been better to scale with lvl e.g.
Burst 1d6 per 5 character levels
Blast 1d6 per 2 character levels

PsychoBlonde
06-20-2017, 09:12 PM
[/B]With U36, most Area of Effect spells cast by enemies (such as Ice Storm and Web) now have visible indicators of their boundaries on the ground. This should make more clear where enemy effects begin and end, and improve players' ability to analyze the battlefield.

I would GREATLY appreciate it if this could be expanded to apply to tactical detonation. I'm not sure how exactly that would need to be accomplished, but the visual effect of TD and the actual area of effect of the spell are so WILDLY different that it's kind of hard to use it effectively in a lot of situations.

I've noticed that a lot of burst spells tend to get wonkus AOE's as well--you'll hit one mob in a group, and it will hit mobs on the sides of that mob but not mobs directly behind that mob even if, by rights, they ought to be in the AOE. It's as if the spell gets compressed into a vertical plane instead of covering a horizontal area.

Seikojin
06-20-2017, 09:14 PM
I would GREATLY appreciate it if this could be expanded to apply to tactical detonation. I'm not sure how exactly that would need to be accomplished, but the visual effect of TD and the actual area of effect of the spell are so WILDLY different that it's kind of hard to use it effectively in a lot of situations.

I've noticed that a lot of burst spells tend to get wonkus AOE's as well--you'll hit one mob in a group, and it will hit mobs on the sides of that mob but not mobs directly behind that mob even if, by rights, they ought to be in the AOE. It's as if the spell gets compressed into a vertical plane instead of covering a horizontal area.

It would be nice if it was on player aoes as well. Maybe if it doesn't cause huge perf issues it may come into the friendly realm.

PsychoBlonde
06-20-2017, 09:14 PM
Can you also take a look at the area radius of effects such as canon blasts (demonstrated in Precious Cargo), dragon fireballs or other bombardment like DoJ? They seem to have a much bigger area of effect than indicated on the ground.

Oo, good idea. The ballistae are particularly nasty because the explosion can hit you through a wall or floor, too.

geoffhanna
06-20-2017, 09:16 PM
Arcane Archers must have a Longbow or Shortbow equipped to toggle on the Imbues from that tree. Equipping something other than a Longbow or Shortbow in your main hand will cause Arcane Archer Imbues to toggle off.


So every time my ranger swaps to swords she will have to re-toggle the imbues? That seems pretty far from optimal.

Isn't it possible to achieve the desired goal - removing imbues from non-bow ranged weapons - differently?

Jetrule
06-20-2017, 09:17 PM
What is this? The third or fourth nerf to E.S. and the second overall warlock damage nerf? I don't mind the damage reduction too much after level 26 but level 3-25 it is pretty harsh. I can believe that your figures show warlock damage being too high in heroics. But level 20-25? I will see how it plays out. How many more focused or cone shape blasts it takes. I am running tainted scholar/soul eater in heroics already. I feel I can take a damage out put nerf but -25%-50% primary blast damage in heroics after level 2 is going to be tough. Especially a warlock who is facing something immune to their pact damage. I think my Great old one pact warlock will be hard pressed to kill a clay golem or a arcane ooze.

Oh well at least I can enjoy my repeater ranger. Oops no not so much. Deep wood stalker will still be good but I think 6+ arti may now be mandatory. Making pure ranger ranged builds only great with a bow? You realy dont want crossbow rangers I take it. Ok understandable. My crossbow ranger does more damage than my warlock to a single target. Best knock that down and make all crossbow characters battle engineers or mechanics.

I am a bit bitter I suppose because these two builds are right now the only two I usually play. I know the imbues were subject to change without notice but I went ahead and did that crossbow ranger with my main in a static group. And my little heroic, epic, reaper reincarnation project is playing as a warlock.

Well my parked 30 character is a pure vanguard pali. You're not nerfing that are you?

Lynnabel
06-20-2017, 09:18 PM
Can you also take a look at the area radius of effects such as canon blasts (demonstrated in Precious Cargo), dragon fireballs or other bombardment like DoJ? They seem to have a much bigger area of effect than indicated on the ground.

On a scale of one to known issue, DoJ's AoE's from the end boss being broken beyond compare is definitely on the known side. It's on a very long list of "content that needs to be de-broken'd," don't worry.

PermaBanned
06-20-2017, 09:23 PM
Spell Resistance
With U36, the following changes are being made to Spell Resistance:


Drow and Deep Gnome's Spell Resistance now stacks with all other sources of Spell Resistance.
The majority of item-based sources of Spell Resistance have had their values reduced by about 1/3.
Fury of the Wild's Ward against Weird ability is now a Primal bonus to Spell Resistance (stacking with most other sources) and has new values (5/30/60).


In the U36 cycle, we set out to finally make Drow and Deep Gnome's racial Spell Resistance stack with other sources (as we said we would after the recent Race Tree pass). In analyzing the numbers involved, it came to our attention that the math used to determine what values new Cannith Crafting, new Lootgen, and recent Named Items calculated Spell Resistance at was wrong. As a result, the numbers available were much higher than we were comfortable with before adding in stacking Drow and Deep Gnomes.

With this change, a character without racial SR equipping maximum available sources of SR should be within striking distance of the necessary SR to resist high-difficulty monsters' spells. It will be very difficult (if not impossible at certain ranges) to get a no-fail value on those characters in high difficulties. With Drow and Deep Gnome values now stacking, however, those characters can much more easily compete against enemy spells.
Every time this subject comes up I ask the same question, every time I get no official answer - PLEASE RESPOND?

At level 13 Monks get "Diamond Soul" giving them SR = 10+Monk Level. Currently this stacks with neither Racial nor Gear sources of SR.

What is your intended stacking or non-stacking for a Drow/Gnome + Diamond Soul + Gear? Edit: Or if it's a given that Racial will now stack with Diamond Soul (because "stacks with all other sources") what about even just Diamond Soul + Gear?

Mindos
06-20-2017, 09:24 PM
We're working on letting Wands and Scrolls work through this without turning the toggles off.

Isn't it a common playstyle for Rangers to swap between ranged bow use and two weapon fighting? Should we never put the bow down? The opposite of every advice thread ever given regarding playing a Ranger?
2. You do realize that there is now a very rare chance that a new player will swap out the bow, switch back to bow, and NOT be able to turn the imbue on do to insufficient spell points? A rare case, but still now an edge possibility.

Jetrule
06-20-2017, 09:30 PM
Isn't it a common playstyle for Rangers to swap between ranged bow use and two weapon fighting? Should we never put the bow down? The opposite of every advice thread ever given regarding playing a Ranger?
2. You do realize that there is now a very rare chance that a new player will swap out the bow, switch back to bow, and NOT be able to turn the imbue on do to insufficient spell points? A rare case, but still now an edge possibility.

Not so rare if using inferno shot or other spell point cost attack from the tree. I would love to see spell point cost removed from the imbues.

Mindos
06-20-2017, 09:36 PM
So I guess epic starts at level 26 now? Meanwhile, the warlocks are still pretty weak in epics, now VERY weak before 26 and only a bit better after. Update 36 will make me want to play DDO a lot less, time to start looking for a new game.

So you take the most popular class and nerf it heavily? What game has that ever been good for???

The new shiny overpowered thing can't compete with the old shiny overpowered thing. :)

How many reductions to Warlock since its release now?
Why was it created so strong/overpowered to begin with?
How much does Warlock cost in the store?
Will everyone who bought one get a partial refund? :)

Don't worry! Something new will come out that will outshine Warlock. (and then get nerfed when sales slow, in my humble xfiles opinion) :P

karatemack
06-20-2017, 09:39 PM
In Enlightened Spirit, Eldritch Burst's additional Light damage is now 1d6.
In Enlightened Spirit, Spirit Blast's additional Light damage is now 4d6.



This is the only thing about this update I am not completely excited for. Seems like a harsh nerf for epics. Any way to add the extra light damage back in during epics in the feats as you did with the other damage dice?

Mindos
06-20-2017, 09:43 PM
One thing that I'd really like to see is shadow form in shadowdancer bypass tremor sense. This would be a small buff to shadowdancer, allowing for people to focus on stealth / assassinate playstyle if they want. (I'd also like wraith form to work similarly but I'd settle just for shadow form).

I agree with everything you've said. You're floating!

elvesunited
06-20-2017, 09:44 PM
Umm, nice try.

The 'changes' are suggested to counter power in heroic levels. Thanks
for demonstrating that epic is nerfed also - when it needed to be buffed.

Redo your calcs for L12

Oh I have little illusion that this nerf will hit the heroic levels. That is what it was designed for. I was trying to show that the high epic levels weren't hit nearly that bad.

But since you asked... level 12:

eldritch: 4d6 ( down 33% )
Pact Damage: 6d4
burst/blast light: 1d6 ( down 66% ) or 4d6 ( down 60% )
spritiual retribution: 3d4 ( down 29% )

Spirit Burst Average damage before: 10d6 + 6d4 ( 50 Avg )
Spirit Burst Average damage after: 5d6 + 9d4 ( 40 Avg )

Spirit Blast Average damage before: 17d6 + 6d4 ( 74 Avg )
Spirit Blast Average damage after: 8d6 + 9d4 ( 50 Avg )

So 20% drop in spirit burst and 33% drop in spirit blast
( varying by a few percent depending how effective your pact damage is )

It is a nerf. Designed to hit heroics the hardest. Is it enough to get people to abandon the warlock class? I doubt it.

Mindos
06-20-2017, 09:50 PM
I'd make AOE pull-me-out-of-the-game-outlines be an optional setting. Enabled by default for newbs. Though guess maybe it depends on how close it melds to the spell fx coloring/look or if it's vibrant neon purple outlining (with blue-hair, rocket boots, and GIANT eyes).

yeah i dont want a big circle on the ground either.

zehnvhex
06-20-2017, 09:54 PM
It is a nerf. Designed to hit heroics the hardest. Is it enough to get people to abandon the warlock class? I doubt it.

It won't obviously. For ES warlocks it means one more rotation, maybe, since a large part of it was overkill anyways. Maybe now at least they'll start looking at buffing warlocks in the end game. Spell dps in general sucks though and I doubt we'll ever get it addressed.

Personally if they're going to listen to the warlock whiners, I'm looking forward to seeing what kinds of buffs my melee characters get then. The new hotness is griping about melee so I'm looking forward to my already overpowered monk to become even more god-tier soon because I know how to avoid getting hit.

Maelodic
06-20-2017, 09:54 PM
I know it's not likely to happen, but if you're going to reduce the damage in ES blasts, could you please make Eldritxh Wave and especially Eldritch Ball more usable? These are the damage tree abilities and they're entirely outshined by the blast/burst stuff. Make ball more like a fireball so we actually know where it's going to hit, and make wave actually useful when moving.
I'm still going to play my warlock, but I've felt forced into ES just because using ball is ridiculously unsatisfying and half the time it doesn't hit where you want it to. I really love the TS/SE combo. Just make it a purple fireball, please.

Mindos
06-20-2017, 09:55 PM
Every time this subject comes up I ask the same question, every time I get no official answer - PLEASE RESPOND?

At level 13 Monks get "Diamond Soul" giving them SR = 10+Monk Level. Currently this stacks with neither Racial nor Gear sources of SR.

What is your intended stacking or non-stacking for a Drow/Gnome + Diamond Soul + Gear?

SSG really needs better public relations. The ommission of info, the speculation, could all be avoided by having standard reasonable communication.
I have a loss of confidence. Other's apperently do as well., I would wish that changes to my favorite game are made with deliberate thoughtful consideration of the subject matter and tangents, but I think people forget things.

Vorthian
06-20-2017, 09:59 PM
Hello!

Arcane Archer
With U36, the following changes are being made to Arcane Archer (both Elf and Ranger):


Arcane Archer Imbue toggles will only grant their effects while wielding a Longbow or Shortbow.
Arcane Archers must have a Longbow or Shortbow equipped to toggle on the Imbues from that tree. Equipping something other than a Longbow or Shortbow in your main hand will cause Arcane Archer Imbues to toggle off.


For a very long time now, it's been possible to use Arcane Archer toggles with weapons that aren't bows. These abilities, by their wording, are only meant to work with Bows, but there are currently ways of getting around that and applying those effects to other weapons. The pass to Rangers circa Update 28 put some changes in place to stop this that were ultimately unsuccessful. We are interested in creating better balance between Bows, Crossbows, and other forms of ranged combat in the long term. In order to make that balance work, we need to finally fix Arcane Archer to work as it is intended to.


Thank you for the many years of great fun and adventure.

Subscription cancelled, farewell.

NytCrawlr
06-20-2017, 10:04 PM
All in all I like most of the changes. I think it's going to balance Warlock more to where it needs to be and make it less of an easy button (yes, I have played one, it was an easy button).

The way they are changing AA concerns me only because swapping is a thing, and I can see this having a bigger impact than originally suspected. All in all though, bout time they brought down some of the silliness that was star builds.



Personally if they're going to listen to the warlock whiners, I'm looking forward to seeing what kinds of buffs my melee characters get then. The new hotness is griping about melee so I'm looking forward to my already overpowered monk to become even more god-tier soon because I know how to avoid getting hit.

Seriously, non-trolling. I would love to see video of this.

I keep seeing these claims, yet never see the evidence to back it up. Not just by you, and I watch an awful lot of DDO Youtube videos.

Maybe it is just because I am in my 40s and I am no longer TwitchMaster5000, nor ever was, no ever really want to be, but I have a really hard time swallowing the whole "Never get hit/avoid getting hit" line when it comes from people that also play melee, especially when it comes to an 11+ year old game where the aging engine and lag become huge, limiting factors to that claim.

Gargoyle69
06-20-2017, 10:19 PM
"content that needs to be de-broken'd,"

Is that the technical term ? :cool:

We need a list called Lynnabel's Technical Terms.

Complete with "cleric thing", "the crit threat thingie", "the doubleshot thing" and all our other favourites :-p

dng242
06-20-2017, 10:52 PM
We're working on letting Wands and Scrolls work through this without turning the toggles off.

...and this will apply to weapon attachment as well?:cool:

GeoffWatson
06-20-2017, 11:21 PM
So Crossbows will be the only decent range weapons?

doubledge
06-20-2017, 11:29 PM
I am an avid player of AA imbue repeating crossbow builds.

Honestly, these changes were a long time coming.

The three lives I've played warlock, I agree that I had done far too much damage.

What people are failing to realize, is that all of their damage?

That damage is free. No cost, no penalties.

Why are you complaining?

The closest thing wizards get to something that's free is the magic missile SLA, which does about 60 damage.

Do you really want to compare the two?

Seriously. These changes are nothing.

Morroiel
06-20-2017, 11:42 PM
I am an avid player of AA imbue repeating crossbow builds.

Honestly, these changes were a long time coming.

The three lives I've played warlock, I agree that I had done far too much damage.

What people are failing to realize, is that all of their damage?

That damage is free. No cost, no penalties.

Why are you complaining?

The closest thing wizards get to something that's free is the magic missile SLA, which does about 60 damage.

Do you really want to compare the two?

Seriously. These changes are nothing.

Trivializing changes by saying they don't have it as bad as others is a stupid line of argument. I agree with the changes (for the most part) but your line of logic makes no sense.

A person getting mugged in america at gunpoint lives. He objectively had it better than the person captured by ISIS and beheaded. Does that mean the person who got mugged, doesn't have cause to complain? No, while the person who got mugged should thank their lucky stars that they didn't die - they have every right to complain, what happened to them is objectively wrong.

Morroiel
06-20-2017, 11:46 PM
So Crossbows will be the only decent range weapons?

There were other throwing builds that didn't utilize the arcane archer imbues - or used them to a much less extent. Trust me when I say that if these are the extent of the thrower changes, they are still miles ahead of most other classes, builds dps wise.

I've been thinking though and I'm more and more inclined to believe that they should take an alternative approach and nerf the damage elemental/force imbues do based on base weapon die or straight up hardcode weapon-type to determine it. There is a way to nerf throwers and repeaters using it, while still keeping it viable as a tree to use. Additionally proc % on enchantment imbues (terror, paralyzing, etc.) could be nerfed by hardcoding weapon type or calculating on the fly by weapon base-die.

Elfishski
06-20-2017, 11:56 PM
Sound like sensible changes in general.


Hello!
Arcane Archer
With U36, the following changes are being made to Arcane Archer (both Elf and Ranger):


Arcane Archer Imbue toggles will only grant their effects while wielding a Longbow or Shortbow.
Arcane Archers must have a Longbow or Shortbow equipped to toggle on the Imbues from that tree. Equipping something other than a Longbow or Shortbow in your main hand will cause Arcane Archer Imbues to toggle off.



Sounds good in general. As other have mentioned, would be really nice for this to not turn off when equipping scrolls/wands because that would be a real pain. How about just turning them off if you equip any kind of crossbow or throwing weapon specifically?
Make sure Composite Longbows/Shortbows still allowed too in case they're a separate category for that switch.


Warlocks
Yes, good.



Spell Resistance
With U36, the following changes are being made to Spell Resistance:


Drow and Deep Gnome's Spell Resistance now stacks with all other sources of Spell Resistance.
The majority of item-based sources of Spell Resistance have had their values reduced by about 1/3.
Fury of the Wild's Ward against Weird ability is now a Primal bonus to Spell Resistance (stacking with most other sources) and has new values (5/30/60).


In the U36 cycle, we set out to finally make Drow and Deep Gnome's racial Spell Resistance stack with other sources (as we said we would after the recent Race Tree pass). In analyzing the numbers involved, it came to our attention that the math used to determine what values new Cannith Crafting, new Lootgen, and recent Named Items calculated Spell Resistance at was wrong. As a result, the numbers available were much higher than we were comfortable with before adding in stacking Drow and Deep Gnomes.

With this change, a character without racial SR equipping maximum available sources of SR should be within striking distance of the necessary SR to resist high-difficulty monsters' spells. It will be very difficult (if not impossible at certain ranges) to get a no-fail value on those characters in high difficulties. With Drow and Deep Gnome values now stacking, however, those characters can much more easily compete against enemy spells.

Sounds good, hopefully your math adds up to. If the racial/monk SR values aren't reduced as well as stacking bonuses then you'll end up with nobody except those races having any use out of SR on elite+, but those races having no fail SR which isn't as interesting in terms of choices...

Definitely it became too easy after new insightful and quality (if you were happy wearing that light armor) bonuses for everyone to get no fail SR, and that shouldn't be the case at high difficulty levels.



Aggro & Stealth
With U36, the following changes are being made to Aggro and Stealth:


Monsters will take the distance of their targets into account now. Closer targets are more likely to be targeted (assuming they have not yet taken much damage) compared to Live.
If a monster kills or loses their primary target, they’ll now aggro correctly on who has the most hate next (as opposed to the closest target, as they often do now on Live).
Monsters with the “see stealthed” property will now display an angry red eye icon to anyone observing them in stealth. Note: The see through stealth property, aka “tremor sense” is not True Sight or See Invisible. Those abilities don’t actually don’t affect sight checks against players just using the stealth skill. For example, Spiders and Slimes typically have the See Through Stealth property, per 3.5 edition rules. Red- and Purple-name bosses also tend to get this ability.


These changes were the result of listening closely to player feedback and examination of monster AI in regards to stealth gameplay.

Regarding stealth
These sound good in general, what's missing here seems to be that currently after you've been spotted then all monsters that have aggro know exactly where you are, would really improve the experience if

Monsters only remembered where they last saw you or where the monster that alerted them last saw you
If they can't see you anymore they would go to where they last saw you, and start searching with bonuses (and continuing to contribute to dungeon alert) rather than knowing your exact position for all eternity.

Basically give you a chance to be forgotten, rather than the moment you fail a roll you have to kill everything in the dungeon.

Also - any chance of reverting the changes to To Curse The Sky with kill-everything-to-proceed doors being added?



Area of Effect Spells
With U36, most Area of Effect spells cast by enemies (such as Ice Storm and Web) now have visible indicators of their boundaries on the ground. This should make more clear where enemy effects begin and end, and improve players' ability to analyze the battlefield.

As someone else mentioned, would be nice if this was a toggle in the graphics options rather than always on. Some days I might prefer the deeper tactical knowledge of this on higher difficulties, other days I might prefer a more immersive graphics setting with less overlays and effects.

Hakushi
06-20-2017, 11:58 PM
Would it be possible for U36 to add more user chat channels so we can have more than 4?

Qezuzu
06-21-2017, 12:01 AM
Monsters only remembered where they last saw you or where the monster that alerted them last saw you

Unless this changed in the last few months this should already be the case.

sephiroth1084
06-21-2017, 12:06 AM
Aggro & Stealth
With U36, the following changes are being made to Aggro and Stealth:


Monsters will take the distance of their targets into account now. Closer targets are more likely to be targeted (assuming they have not yet taken much damage) compared to Live.
If a monster kills or loses their primary target, they’ll now aggro correctly on who has the most hate next (as opposed to the closest target, as they often do now on Live).
Monsters with the “see stealthed” property will now display an angry red eye icon to anyone observing them in stealth. Note: The see through stealth property, aka “tremor sense” is not True Sight or See Invisible. Those abilities don’t actually don’t affect sight checks against players just using the stealth skill. For example, Spiders and Slimes typically have the See Through Stealth property, per 3.5 edition rules. Red- and Purple-name bosses also tend to get this ability.


These changes were the result of listening closely to player feedback and examination of monster AI in regards to stealth gameplay.
My issues with stealth gameplay, which are not mentioned here:

If a monster has See Invisibility, or "see through stealth" it seems to auto-aggro on the stealthed/invisible character, even if other targets are available/have built up aggro. Example: I activated Shadow Veil in a boss fight, and saw the boss sprout a red eye above his head, turn to me, and whomp me good, even though I definitely had much less aggro than its previous target.
If a monster has See Invisibility, or "see through stealth" it seems to pass that information along to the whole group, which then auto-aggros on the stealthed/invisible character. Example: sneaking into a room full of spiders and trogs in Slavers, and a spider notices me, then the entire group gets red eyes, and homes right in on me, even with other targets they can see/are closer.

It seems like monsters really hate sneaky characters so much, they will ignore real threats just to pound the sneaky guys.
I'm okay with monsters swapping info, but it seems ridiculous to me that a spider is alerting a group of trogs, and then they're all ignore the rest of the players to zero in on the sneaky guy.

Astoroth
06-21-2017, 12:15 AM
You've spent years making instances with monsters with bloated hit points. You recently upgraded champions to have buff groupings. Which should have been for reaper only, but persists in elite and even hard. You recently added more past lives to incentivize heroic game play.

Now it seems ill thought out to nerf two of the primary ways people are doing large amounts of damage. I think you have a failure to comprehend what a trash monster is, and how that should relate to what a champion should be.

Nerfing stuff years after the fact isn't going to win you any pluses, after you tried to solve the issues by years of bad level design. I understand people are using warlocks and ranged characters to 'beat' reaper. Not sure that's much of a reason for you to tank what little fun is left in your game, pretty sure not everyone will stick around for a tiresome grindfest.

generalfoley
06-21-2017, 12:37 AM
You've spent years making instances with monsters with bloated hit points. You recently upgraded champions to have buff groupings. Which should have been for reaper only, but persists in elite and even hard. You recently added more past lives to incentivize heroic game play.

Now it seems ill thought out to nerf two of the primary ways people are doing large amounts of damage. I think you have a failure to comprehend what a trash monster is, and how that should relate to what a champion should be.

Nerfing stuff years after the fact isn't going to win you any pluses, after you tried to solve the issues by years of bad level design. I understand people are using warlocks and ranged characters to 'beat' reaper. Not sure that's much of a reason for you to tank what little fun is left in your game, pretty sure not everyone will stick around for a tiresome grindfest.

Honestly,someone tell me,
How do you explain Turbine and SSG making such bad design decisions for such a long time and not learning from their past mistakes?

Rys
06-21-2017, 12:38 AM
We're working on letting Wands and Scrolls work through this without turning the toggles off.

And how about displace clickies on weapons? That is 1:30 change of weapon. I guess macro will solve this but toggling on imbues generates disproportionate amount of lag. I hope you are aware of that and instead of lazy fix you will actually work on it.

EllisDee37
06-21-2017, 01:02 AM
The answer to imbues is clear and obvious: Make them work the same way as swashbuckling. Clearly the tech is already there.

When my swashbuckler equips a greatsword, the swashbuckling icon goes away in her buff bar but the actual swashbuckling stance on my hotbar is still active. When I switch back to brush hook + buckler, the icon re-appears in her buff bar without having to re-toggle the stance.

Morroiel
06-21-2017, 01:07 AM
The answer to imbues is clear and obvious: Make them work the same way as swashbuckling. Clearly the tech is already there.

When my swashbuckler equips a greatsword, the swashbuckling icon goes away in her buff bar but the actual swashbuckling stance on my hotbar is still active. When I switch back to brush hook + buckler, the icon re-appears in her buff bar without having to re-toggle the stance.

I like your thinking. Additionally drawing further comparisons with swashbuckling -> different weapons have modified crit profiles, so that weapons are more equalized allowing for greater variability.

There is no in-game lore reason that arcane archers shouldn't be able to imbue arrows, throwing stars, or bolts. For balance reasons the imbued value could alter depending on the ammunition type used: this would allow for greater build variance, while still allowing nerfs to repeater and thrower abusers.

Elfishski
06-21-2017, 01:20 AM
The answer to imbues is clear and obvious: Make them work the same way as swashbuckling. Clearly the tech is already there.

When my swashbuckler equips a greatsword, the swashbuckling icon goes away in her buff bar but the actual swashbuckling stance on my hotbar is still active. When I switch back to brush hook + buckler, the icon re-appears in her buff bar without having to re-toggle the stance.

Good suggestion!

Nandos
06-21-2017, 02:02 AM
On some of my Rangers, when monsters move into melee range I swap to dual melee weapons. After the monsters are finished off, I switch back to bow. Will the toggles turn back on automatically when I switch to bow like they do now?

Thanks

KomradKillMachine
06-21-2017, 02:04 AM
If you are going to nerf Warlock for the 10th time then the class price should be nerfed as well.
465 DP is where it should be pricewise after U36 hits.

Arctigis
06-21-2017, 02:35 AM
Oh I have little illusion that this nerf will hit the heroic levels. That is what it was designed for. I was trying to show that the high epic levels weren't hit nearly that bad.

But since you asked... level 12:

eldritch: 4d6 ( down 33% )
Pact Damage: 6d4
burst/blast light: 1d6 ( down 66% ) or 4d6 ( down 60% )
spritiual retribution: 3d4 ( down 29% )

Spirit Burst Average damage before: 10d6 + 6d4 ( 50 Avg )
Spirit Burst Average damage after: 5d6 + 9d4 ( 40 Avg )

Spirit Blast Average damage before: 17d6 + 6d4 ( 74 Avg )
Spirit Blast Average damage after: 8d6 + 9d4 ( 50 Avg )

So 20% drop in spirit burst and 33% drop in spirit blast
( varying by a few percent depending how effective your pact damage is )


You should include spiritual retribution in these calcs too I think (down 3d6->3d4). As I said, it's
a pretty huge nerf really. More so when you consider the multiplicative effect of crits.



It is a nerf. Designed to hit heroics the hardest. Is it enough to get people to abandon the warlock class? I doubt it.

Well, it's too much for me. I wouldn't say I'm a whale but I had two subs and have spent $800 on this game in the
last four months. Would've been more but I was holding out for a points sale.

What's galling is, to me, it's a clear impact of a noisy few continually whining on the forums. Warlocks have blast/burst
for damage. They get virtually no other damaging spells - yet all people focus on is the 'free' burst/blast. Last
time I checked, melee hits and cleaves were 'free', shooting/throwing and manyshot was 'free' etc.

For the record, I don't play my Warlock as a burster in ES on the heroic TR train - I find a TS + ES blasting
Warlock with high DC faster.

Sam-u-r-eye
06-21-2017, 02:37 AM
lovely work guys! good stuff

cru121
06-21-2017, 02:55 AM
Warlocks
Perhaps some kind of carrot for players attempting to melee with warlock could be slapped to the ES tree instead. IIRC originally it was presented as a hybrid melee/caster tree, but I might be wrong.

KomradKillMachine
06-21-2017, 03:02 AM
This warlock nerf is nothing but a weak-a*s*s attempt to slow you people down, especially in Heroics.
Pretty obvious considering how all the Racial TRs are being roflstomped on Reaper with Warlocks atm.
They worry about the lack of sh*t to do for players once this new grind is over.

Morroiel
06-21-2017, 03:06 AM
Perhaps some kind of carrot for players attempting to melee with warlock could be slapped to the ES tree instead. IIRC originally it was presented as a hybrid melee/caster tree, but I might be wrong.

I'd rather they implemented this as some version of the hexblade pact - mechanically its actually pretty cool, having playtested one myself (5e pnp UA for those interested in it).

One could imagine that hexblade would basically allow you to turn a caster into hybrid caster-melee build, which then can make choices like the other pacts (caster variants) if they want a high dps combo, high survivability, etc.

These are how I envision the enhancement trees atm (after the proposed nerfs).
SE - instakill, high dps
TS - control, moderate dps, moderate survivability/utility
ES - low dps, moderate survivability, minor utility

Jyhdif
06-21-2017, 03:08 AM
And I just LR20'd an old old toon into my first ever arcane shuri! Doh. At least I got to love it for one run through the Epic Gianthold wilderness.

I understand the changes, but the real reason I wanted AA imbues on a shuri thrower was for the CC, not the elemental damage. Any thoughts on other CC options for shuri throwers in heroics now? Frozen tunic? Heroic greensteel? Before shiradi and LGS (first life character), the same question applies to epics (Calomel and Coromyr offhands?).

I like the idea for the aggro changes. Does this mean the whole dungeon will no longer rush you when you hit a rat on the head with your returning dart?

noinfo
06-21-2017, 03:54 AM
Just so I'm clear:

Paladin Divine Might is typed as an insightful strength bonus. This frees up a gear slot!
Racial Spell Resistance fully stacks with everything. Other races can go pound sand.


Not a fan. Leave items as-is, and type racial spell resistance as Insightful. It frees up a gear slot (much like divine might) and it stays ahead of insightful items assuming you get racial SR from epic levels:

ML10: +9 Insightful Spell Resistance from crafted item, +10 racial Spell Resistance
ML12: +10 crafted, +11 racial
ML13: +11 crafted, +13 racial
ML15: +12 crafted, +15 racial
ML17: +13 crafted, +17 racial
ML18: +14 crafted, +18 racial
ML19: +15 crafted, +19 racial
ML21: +16 crafted, +21 racial
ML22: +17 crafted, +22 racial
ML24: +18 crafted, +24 racial
ML25: +19 crafted, +25 racial
ML27: +20 crafted, +27 racial
ML28: +21 crafted, +28 racial
ML30: +22 crafted, +30 racial
PL31: +23 crafted, +30 racial
PL33: +24 crafted, +30 racial
PL34: +25 crafted, +30 racial

This seems so obvious and so perfect that I'm sure you guys never even considered it. And now that you've publicly posted your plan it's of course too late to make any meaningful change.

Booooo on yet another bad design decision.

Glad I read the thread rather than replying with exactly this.

The problem was only that SR from race did not stack with anything. Let it replace Insightful and you have no impact on anyone on items that work quite well at the moment and free a gear slot on the others while giving a small advantage at the top end.

noinfo
06-21-2017, 03:56 AM
I would have liked to have seen the pact stances change the eldritch damage to the element from the pact.
~active Fiend Pact changes all eldritch damage to fire damage.(unless utterdark toggle is activated)
would make things more interesting with pact focus... like turning off pact stance when facing certain element mobs.


I can see the reduction in Eldritch damage for heroics, but it is not balanced back in Epics, that only balances if you take those 2 focused epic feats.
Would have liked to have seen the Epic Feats actually give more.


Change to spell resistance appears like it screws any non-racial spell resistant races.
Retroactively reducing the spell resistance of existing gear by 1/3 and making the racial spell resistance unique and stacking without giving other races a way to obtain the racial equivalent drops the non-special races SR max below the mob CR+d20 range.. effectively screwing SR for everyone else..

..will fall down to Lamannia testing of course.. just my initial observation.

The fail with the nerf is not so much in heroic but that they need a way to buff it back up in epic without the feat tax and probably a bit more.

Kebtid
06-21-2017, 04:07 AM
A nerf to throwers, xbow arcane users and warlocks.

The most dominant playstyles for powergamers, good job guys on actually trying to bring ballance back.

Me likey, keep up the work

raclaw
06-21-2017, 04:39 AM
It is a nerf. Designed to hit heroics the hardest. Is it enough to get people to abandon the warlock class? I doubt it.


Yes, because wizard are much better :)

and the most important question.... when update36??? :)

cru121
06-21-2017, 05:00 AM
Warlocks now receive Eldritch Blast base dice feats at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (for a total of 6d6 at level 20) instead of their previous progression. Characters will be automatically adjusted to match this new progression.


I always thought the levels when warlocks received bumps to EB dice was random, without any system. Why not make it autoscale with caster level (with 4 caster levels I guess)? As an Evocation, Force, 9th level spell. This would allow extra dice in arcane destinies. Also existing items (abishai set, arcane augmentation items; that bard song) would have effect. Pact damage could receive similar treatment.

Now you have to mess with base dice feats and whatnot.

CaptainPurge
06-21-2017, 05:10 AM
The warlock blast DPS nerf is to help satisfy the Forum Crybabies about ES blasting trash in reaper. And that's fine. Just another blast will do. *yawn*

That might help satisfy the forum anti-warlock butthurt kiddies to some extent, but they don't realize the temp HP is what truly makes locks remarkable for farming heroic racials. Nerf Shining Through yet again? They won't, that would expose fail design in the first place at a time when they're building their resumes.

Feels like this "nerf" people need to chill.

FranOhmsford
06-21-2017, 05:23 AM
So yet again you've given in to the Elitists with their "power builds" who want to pull the road up behind them!

This is DISGRACEFUL!

Gondandur
06-21-2017, 05:29 AM
We're working on letting Wands and Scrolls work through this without turning the toggles off.

I know I'm probably thinking in a absurd way but... What about have a healer in party as solution?

Eryhn
06-21-2017, 05:31 AM
generally doesn't look bad but the intended mechanics to get AA imbues under control really SCREAM very desperate, helpless bruteforce method.

Plz give some thought to how often more competetive players switch and cycle through all kinds of items on the one hand and to how new players might be a bit strained having to do this all the time

- SP consumption for re-imbuing is an issue
- Lag was mentioned too, dunno HOW much this would add but plz don't
- not to mention IT'S JUST A FRIGGIN NUISSANCE

there were at least 2 good ideas worth delving into instead:

- nvm locking out other stuff and make the imbue dmg based on weapon base dice
(ok, this rly only nerfs the shuris, and it doesn't nerf the paralizers so it'd just be a minor nerf to issues)

- Ellis notion of swashbuckling stance staying active but not being applied when wrong weapon in hand
(this rly seems to be the way to go)

Arctigis
06-21-2017, 05:32 AM
The warlock blast DPS nerf is to help satisfy the Forum Crybabies about ES blasting trash in reaper. And that's fine. Just another blast will do. *yawn*


Let's see. I wonder if it's worth opening a book on when the 'the guy throwing a bazillion
shuriken a second is making my willy feel small' threads will start.



That might help satisfy the forum anti-warlock butthurt kiddies to some extent, but they don't realize the temp HP is what truly makes locks remarkable for farming heroic racials. Nerf Shining Through yet again? They won't, that would expose fail design in the first place at a time when they're building their resumes.


Indeed. SSG is the new Turbine. The proposed changes to AA show they don't understand
anything - because re-toggling imbues every 5 seconds when you have to break down a
stupid web/root wall etc. won't get old fast (and don't get me started on the fact that you
can only break the wall when all the oozes are dead or some other stupid shat)

Wipey
06-21-2017, 05:32 AM
So yet again you've given in to the Elitists with their "power builds" who want to pull the road up behind them!

This is DISGRACEFUL!
What "power builds" those might be ? The only such build is warlock here.
Why would you think that warlock instead of cleric, warlock instead of wizard, warlock instead of many physical "dps classes" is good for dnd based game ? Especially in heroics, especially for rare newb that sees only purple icon in groups and lfm panel ?

Maybe we will see people playing other classes. Such horror !!!
Once again, you are thinking only about you and your playing ability, not the game as a whole.

CaptainPurge
06-21-2017, 05:36 AM
What "power builds" those might be ? The only such build is warlock here.
Why would you think that warlock instead of cleric, warlock instead of wizard, warlock instead of many physical "dps classes" is good for dnd based game ? Especially in heroics, especially for rare newb that sees only purple icon in groups and lfm panel ?

Maybe we will see people playing other classes. Such horror !!!
Once again, you are thinking only about you and your playing ability, not the game as a whole.

was wondering if he would clarify

Fenix93
06-21-2017, 05:38 AM
U36 is shaping up to be a very large update, with some great new content, Artificer changes, and a fairly large number of Bug and Quality-of-Life fixes. There are a few of these changes we wanted to let you know about ahead of Lamannia in order to provide some design insight and provide a bit of advanced notice.

So why are you doing a lot to get out of the box at 36? This is good but ... for such a game as old as I've understood and for years that is full of bugs and unbalances and a little later, but I'm always ready to give a 2nd chance (we hope that you will get these Changes and bug fixes there are other things ... and it's not just a mega corrective path that a content update).

Arcane Archer
With U36, the following changes are being made to Arcane Archer (both Elf and Ranger):


Arcane Archer Imbue toggles will only grant their effects while wielding a Longbow or Shortbow.
Arcane Archers must have a Longbow or Shortbow equipped to toggle on the Imbues from that tree. Equipping something other than a Longbow or Shortbow in your main hand will cause Arcane Archer Imbues to toggle off.


For a very long time now, it's been possible to use Arcane Archer toggles with weapons that aren't bows. These abilities, by their wording, are only meant to work with Bows, but there are currently ways of getting around that and applying those effects to other weapons. The pass to Rangers circa Update 28 put some changes in place to stop this that were ultimately unsuccessful. We are interested in creating better balance between Bows, Crossbows, and other forms of ranged combat in the long term. In order to make that balance work, we need to finally fix Arcane Archer to work as it is intended to.
So on the AA I did not care that the Arcane Archer toggles did not work with the other weapons but partly right and wrong (or not?) In the description there is no shortage that work with other types of weapons that are not short or long strings. .. maybe I'll be wrong ... this thing I think will change many builds.



Warlocks
With U36, the following changes are being made to Warlocks:


Warlocks now receive Eldritch Blast base dice feats at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (for a total of 6d6 at level 20) instead of their previous progression. Characters will be automatically adjusted to match this new progression.
The Epic Eldritch Blast feat now grants 3d6 to Eldritch Blast.
The Epic Arcane Eldritch Blast Destiny feat now grants 4d6 to Eldritch Blast.
In Enlightened Spirit, Eldritch Burst's additional Light damage is now 1d6.
In Enlightened Spirit, Spirit Blast's additional Light damage is now 4d6.
In Enlightened Spirit, Spiritual Retribution's Light damage on all Eldritch Blasts and Weapon Attacks is now 1d4/2d4/3d4.


Internal and live data gathering has led to the conclusion that Warlock DPS is unquestionably too high in Heroic. It isn't simply a matter of their damage output relative to other classes (which is also too high), it's a matter of their power relative to content and other factors involved in overall game balance. Tuning other classes up to their level isn't an option; Warlock damage in Heroic needs to come down.

The above change alters the levels at which Warlocks add 1d6 to their base Eldritch Blast. On Live currently, when they reach level 20 they have 9d6; this change alters that to 6d6. To balance that against Epics, the two available Eldritch Blast feats have been increased to 3d6 and 4d6 (a net gain of +3d6, the same value that was removed from Heroics). As a result, by the time a Warlock reaches level 26, they can have exactly as many dice as they can get now.

The Enlightened Spirit changes bring the extra damage granted by these abilities closer in line with abilities in other classes. Having playtested with the changes, these abilities remain very potent.
I started off with the fact that I do not know the class, the various builds that allow you to have players landed on the ground, however ... I heard voices from many igocators on lforum and playing about this kind of class.

I now wonder if these changes will improve the quality of life in the game and will make sure that there will be more groups in LFM (but I do not think that as always unruly, greedy, and selfish players will always look for riders to overcome the tough mechanics of the game Taxes ... ruining more comunity and fleeing new players, assaulted by many of this "Glithc").

I do not dare that with this the players will stop playing because as I mentioned earlier some players the "OP" the "Veterans" will find a loophole to the problem and will not change anything I'm more than sure, but I'm confident ... because I think it is One of the many problems that is killing the grouping in this game especially in heroic and the Worloak in addition to the LFM Bug (which I hope you will also fiqate it as soon as possible and a major function and you can not continue to ingen it yet).

Spell Resistance
With U36, the following changes are being made to Spell Resistance:


Drow and Deep Gnome's Spell Resistance now stacks with all other sources of Spell Resistance.
The majority of item-based sources of Spell Resistance have had their values reduced by about 1/3.
Fury of the Wild's Ward against Weird ability is now a Primal bonus to Spell Resistance (stacking with most other sources) and has new values (5/30/60).


In the U36 cycle, we set out to finally make Drow and Deep Gnome's racial Spell Resistance stack with other sources (as we said we would after the recent Race Tree pass). In analyzing the numbers involved, it came to our attention that the math used to determine what values new Cannith Crafting, new Lootgen, and recent Named Items calculated Spell Resistance at was wrong. As a result, the numbers available were much higher than we were comfortable with before adding in stacking Drow and Deep Gnomes.

With this change, a character without racial SR equipping maximum available sources of SR should be within striking distance of the necessary SR to resist high-difficulty monsters' spells. It will be very difficult (if not impossible at certain ranges) to get a no-fail value on those characters in high difficulties. With Drow and Deep Gnome values now stacking, however, those characters can much more easily compete against enemy spells.I have read posts on this tread and many already say that Drow and Deap Gnome's will die with 36, unfortunately this and another cause of loophole that allowed the paler to play quietly ... but as I say ... SSG say to You ... do not you really think that there is something that does not go to the base of the game mechanias? Do not you think bringing the rules of the 3.5 PnP a bit complex? DDO and a video game and like many movie and television productions sometimes do not always match the original text-novel, the same thing for DDO we just look at Never Winter Night's 1-2 seems to follow the PnP 3.5 regloe evenly? In part because the video game can be equal to the same! Many mechanics do not work in a video game and so they have to be adapted and made more practical so that it makes play playable, with this I say ... if you try to make the game feasible even to those who can not find **** like me. So then DDO can still be saved m so far the game will continue to have LFM sometimes desperate and bored players waiting for 5-6 hours to do a quest ... because they alone can not play.


Aggro & Stealth
With U36, the following changes are being made to Aggro and Stealth:


Monsters will take the distance of their targets into account now. Closer targets are more likely to be targeted (assuming they have not yet taken much damage) compared to Live.
If a monster kills or loses their primary target, they’ll now aggro correctly on who has the most hate next (as opposed to the closest target, as they often do now on Live).
Monsters with the “see stealthed” property will now display an angry red eye icon to anyone observing them in stealth. Note: The see through stealth property, aka “tremor sense” is not True Sight or See Invisible. Those abilities don’t actually don’t affect sight checks against players just using the stealth skill. For example, Spiders and Slimes typically have the See Through Stealth property, per 3.5 edition rules. Red- and Purple-name bosses also tend to get this ability.


These changes were the result of listening closely to player feedback and examination of monster AI in regards to stealth gameplay.
This is perhaps this ... and one of the changes I prefer ... maybe and I say ... maybe ... something in the agrarian will change? With that I say who knows it ... when in a dangeon I do not see a wave of mobs that first attacks the hearling and then in the assa ... does not it seem to you? If I'm not a tank I do not regret and I'm already dying at first instance.

But I'm especially happy for the sthealt ... that I hope to become a bit more uppermost do not say it will serve more of Invisibility but ... hopefully ... also because the sthealt is an important feature for thieves and some builds they use Sneak attak ... we hope this change makes sense to this skill.

Area of Effect Spells
With U36, most Area of Effect spells cast by enemies (such as Ice Storm and Web) now have visible indicators of their boundaries on the ground. This should make more clear where enemy effects begin and end, and improve players' ability to analyze the battlefield.

Has! This is useful so I know at least how great a field of effect ... but will this also apply to player spells? It would be useful, this feature works well on lottery and solves many problems, we hope it also becomes useful in DDO.

Overall I like this list very much ... I hope you add other bug fixes and bug fixes to 36 (who knows ... maybe all of this and running when it comes out of ravenloft ... maybe in this upcoming expansion will serve again Mechanical details ... the imminent changes you have clerics for example I fan you think about something for a long time, and it's no accident ... Ravenloft and a Dark-Fantasy-Horror setting, full of monsters, demons, non-dead and of course Vampires and the perfect place to play a cleric).

FranOhmsford
06-21-2017, 05:40 AM
What "power builds" those might be ? The only such build is warlock here.
Why would you think that warlock instead of cleric, warlock instead of wizard, warlock instead of many physical "dps classes" is good for dnd based game ? Especially in heroics, especially for rare newb that sees only purple icon in groups and lfm panel ?

Maybe we will see people playing other classes. Such horror !!!
Once again, you are thinking only about you and your playing ability, not the game as a whole.

WOLF, TREE, SHURICANNON!

And likely a bunch of others I don't know about too!


No Pure Class is a POWER BUILD!

Eryhn
06-21-2017, 05:40 AM
What "power builds" those might be ? The only such build is warlock here.
Why would you think that warlock instead of cleric, warlock instead of wizard, warlock instead of many physical "dps classes" is good for dnd based game ? Especially in heroics, especially for rare newb that sees only purple icon in groups and lfm panel ?

Maybe we will see people playing other classes. Such horror !!!


trying very hard to guess here but I think his line of thinking might be that people knowing how to build, gear and play made warlock "seem" so OP that this nerf was the result, thereby ruining it for people not knowing how to build, gear and play who used warlock to comfily stick to that game approach to achieve average toon power regardless.

also trying very hard not to further comment on this ...

Saekee
06-21-2017, 06:25 AM
My thoughts / initial impressions:

Arcane archer changes - 8/10 - Overall it has been a long time coming, high rate of fire on shurikens makes elemental imbues flat out broken. The only thing I'd urge you to consider is going the opposite way with this. Streamlining support for elemental imbues on all ranged weapons (cross bows included) -> but allow the base damage die (d2 vs d6, etc) of the weapon used to influence the damage caused by the imbues. This allows for more build options while still allowing you to bring into line shurikens high rate of fire vs bows slow rate of fire. Additionally if you are going to balance ranged builds, you need to also finally create parity between elven tree and ranger tree - I know you are aware of the issue with final strike, if you are going to make arcane archer changes - this needs to be included (as its one of the most influential reasons why shuriken builds have been completely out of balance since the introduction of said ability). Lastly, I would hope that you'd consider reverting your nerf to paralyzing arrow (allowing perma paralysis) due to it no longer being able to be used by shurikens. Shuriken builds need to be brought in line in order for there to be some semblance of balance at endgame.

Warlock changes - 10/10 on ES changes, 4/10 on general warlock blast changes - People don't realize this but warlocks are actually somewhat difficult to play well. I've said my fill with them and that's fine. I think you are missing the real power of warlock in heroic but your changes are inline with what the mob-crowd demands: they think ES is the bees knees, crippling it won't do anything to good warlock players and yet will hopefully tune down the # of warlock threads. I call this a win. I do think making changes like this will negatively impact build diversity in warlocks - you'll still get people who use ES but the % will steadily drop. I'd probably keep in mind that they might need further nerfage on their damage abilities in the ES tree to compensate for some unique/utility buffage elsewhere, bringing Shining through back up 1 notch, etc. On the actual warlock blast changes, you correctly identified the problem: warlocks do too much damage in heroics, on par in epic, and not enough at endgame. I'd recommend using this opportunity to slightly buff their endgame damage by adding 1 or 2 additional blast die in the epic destiny feat. Lastly as a whole, I think these changes are a step in the right direction but you fundamentally missed the biggest reason people play warlock: it is easy to play at a functional level. People will still play warlocks simply because they can't handle reaper on other builds due to their lack of skill / game knowledge. I'd wager the arti and divine passes might pull a few people away from warlock but for the most part your internal data should reflect what I'm saying. People like warlocks in heroic reaper because they do enough damage to clear content fast, they are survivable (especially the ES variants), and ultimately you don't have to understand their full depth to make it through content.

Aggro/Stealth changes - 9/10 - you are going in the right direction and it is good that you are recognizing some of the issues. Stealth play right now is broken - there are enough threads on the matter that I'm not going to get into it. I'd encourage you to look at 3 things (as options for stealth players): 1) please re-evaluate bluff dcs, I thoroughly tested bluff single-mob-pulling at endgame with an adequately maxed bluff skill (152) and I got variable behavior on the same mob, at the same x,y,z coordinate, on the same dice roll. Additionally bluff in reaper seems incredibly useless. 2) auto-fail stealth, ala tremor sense, needs to behave more appropriate to its name: a spider might have tremor sense but then how come the troll next to him knows where I'm at (spiders can't speak troll....), if I'm in wraith form, I'm technically not touching the ground and tremor sense shouldn't work, lastly tremor sense should have an even further reduced range then it currently does. 3) please discontinue making quests that require kill-all mobs to get through barrier; a compromise for this might be that the barrier has to be pulled by a mob (ala alarm) and if a stealth player can avoid aggroing the mobs they can bypass the barrier.

Overall, I like the direction that these changes make but I feel you slightly missed an opportunity with the arcane archer to nerf it in a way that allows build diversity, as well as, missed a huge portion of what makes warlock strong in heroics (though to be honest nerfing ES might be one of my favorite changes in a while just so that people stop putting up a new warlock nerf thread every 2 seconds); additionally, I really like that you've addressed the fact that there are issues with stealth/aggro and are working on fixing it (even if its not the exact fix that I'd like).

Edit: Until I see the actual changes regarding spell resistance numbers and the aoe effect indicator, I'm going to withhold judgement on those.


It's nice to see that this is on your radar. A couple questions:

"If a monster kills or loses their primary target, they’ll now aggro correctly on who has the most hate next (as opposed to the closest target, as they often do now on Live)"

Can you clarify "loses their primary target?" Because there's two different ways a monster can lose a player: they lose the player's location, or they forget about the player.

A big gripe of mine with the current system is that mobs will not forget about a sneaking player that they "found" through shared aggro, even with other players around them.

This is what I've been using as an example (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTJ5ukSKDA0). At 0:07 the mobs are alerted to my presence, but immediately "lose" me because they didn't succeed on their own spot check. When I attempt to assassinate them a full 17 seconds later, they were still searching for me despite multiple other players being around them, and also damaging them slightly. I know for a fact that they would have kept going for the full 30 seconds it takes for them to stop searching.

Is this what you're changing? Because "lose their primary target" could also mean "when the mob has finished doing its 30-second search behavior, then it will move to whoever has the most hate next." If it's the former situation you're fixing, serious props because that is IMO one of the biggest issues affecting stealth.

Next question: will you ever entertain the idea of adjusting Reapers in how they handle sneaking players? Right now I think they are way too punishing and prevent a player from doing anything useful with sneak. Randomly placed "see stealthed" mobs are just really, really tough to deal with. I made a thread yesterday outlining my issues with them and the ways stealth can be used in a group. This could be removing their see-stealthed ability, disallowing them to share their aggro, reducing their cone of vision, giving them auto-succed on listen but not spot, etc. etc., but right now they're the absolute bane of anyone who wants to play as a sneaky rogue/other class. And not bane as in "oh this guy is pretty tough," bane as in they completely invalidate how I and others wanted to player in reaper.

This is especially important now that mobs will properly account for distance when choosing targets. Right now sneaking's only purpose was Assassinate and avoiding aggro from mobs that strangely make a beeline for whoever is in the back of the party. Now sneaking really only has one purpose, at least in reaper. I have to ask: how do you see players using the sneak skill?
Great stuff thanks for posting. I have always argued that wraith form both from the PM tree as well as SD should have a new relationship with tremor sense. On that matter, so should a character in the midst of featherfall...

Just so I'm clear:

Paladin Divine Might is typed as an insightful strength bonus. This frees up a gear slot!
Racial Spell Resistance fully stacks with everything. Other races can go pound sand.


Not a fan. Leave items as-is, and type racial spell resistance as Insightful. It frees up a gear slot (much like divine might) and it stays ahead of insightful items assuming you get racial SR from epic levels:

ML10: +9 Insightful Spell Resistance from crafted item, +10 racial Spell Resistance
ML12: +10 crafted, +11 racial
ML13: +11 crafted, +13 racial
ML15: +12 crafted, +15 racial
ML17: +13 crafted, +17 racial
ML18: +14 crafted, +18 racial
ML19: +15 crafted, +19 racial
ML21: +16 crafted, +21 racial
ML22: +17 crafted, +22 racial
ML24: +18 crafted, +24 racial
ML25: +19 crafted, +25 racial
ML27: +20 crafted, +27 racial
ML28: +21 crafted, +28 racial
ML30: +22 crafted, +30 racial
PL31: +23 crafted, +30 racial
PL33: +24 crafted, +30 racial
PL34: +25 crafted, +30 racial

This seems so obvious and so perfect that I'm sure you guys never even considered it. And now that you've publicly posted your plan it's of course too late to make any meaningful change.

Booooo on yet another bad design decision.
Always listen to this guy, SSD

My issues with stealth gameplay, which are not mentioned here:

If a monster has See Invisibility, or "see through stealth" it seems to auto-aggro on the stealthed/invisible character, even if other targets are available/have built up aggro. Example: I activated Shadow Veil in a boss fight, and saw the boss sprout a red eye above his head, turn to me, and whomp me good, even though I definitely had much less aggro than its previous target.
If a monster has See Invisibility, or "see through stealth" it seems to pass that information along to the whole group, which then auto-aggros on the stealthed/invisible character. Example: sneaking into a room full of spiders and trogs in Slavers, and a spider notices me, then the entire group gets red eyes, and homes right in on me, even with other targets they can see/are closer.

It seems like monsters really hate sneaky characters so much, they will ignore real threats just to pound the sneaky guys.
I'm okay with monsters swapping info, but it seems ridiculous to me that a spider is alerting a group of trogs, and then they're all ignore the rest of the players to zero in on the sneaky guy.
thx for sharing, excellent observations

And I just LR20'd an old old toon into my first ever arcane shuri! Doh. At least I got to love it for one run through the Epic Gianthold wilderness.

I understand the changes, but the real reason I wanted AA imbues on a shuri thrower was for the CC, not the elemental damage. Any thoughts on other CC options for shuri throwers in heroics now? Frozen tunic? Heroic greensteel? Before shiradi and LGS (first life character), the same question applies to epics (Calomel and Coromyr offhands?).

I like the idea for the aggro changes. Does this mean the whole dungeon will no longer rush you when you hit a rat on the head with your returning dart?
CC for a chucker: tendon slice in all forms, usually on weapon but sometimes in gear slots; crippling arrowhead which procs on crit so use snowstar with it; upgraded heroic ToEE on the offhand has AoE as well (elemental) that one could use at level 7; frozen tunic like you mention; Cormyrian paralyzing shuriken at level 16 but will have poor DC (will mostly still proc in heroics given high RoF).

SirValentine
06-21-2017, 06:58 AM
Arcane Archer


Arcane Archer change makes sense thematically.

Will this be a trend to prevent/correct those assorted not-quite-an-exploit un-intended and un-thematic "synergy" builds?



Warlocks
...
Internal and live data gathering has led to the conclusion that Warlock DPS is unquestionably too high in Heroic. It isn't simply a matter of their damage output relative to other classes (which is also too high), it's a matter of their power relative to content and other factors involved in overall game balance. Tuning other classes up to their level isn't an option; Warlock damage in Heroic needs to come down.


Wow. This is the most reasonable statement about game balance I've seen from a dev in many, many months.

Looking forward to further nerfs of overpowered DPS, relative to content.



Spell Resistance


The racial SR on live is pretty useless, due to it's stacking (i.e., none). It does need a buff.

But was there really no middle ground between "currently useless for Drow" and "make it useless for everyone except Drow"?

NytCrawlr
06-21-2017, 07:25 AM
What "power builds" those might be ? The only such build is warlock here.
Why would you think that warlock instead of cleric, warlock instead of wizard, warlock instead of many physical "dps classes" is good for dnd based game ? Especially in heroics, especially for rare newb that sees only purple icon in groups and lfm panel ?

Maybe we will see people playing other classes. Such horror !!!
Once again, you are thinking only about you and your playing ability, not the game as a whole.

"You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later."

zehnvhex
06-21-2017, 07:28 AM
But was there really no middle ground between "currently useless for Drow" and "make it useless for everyone except Drow"?

This is SSG we're talking about. They don't do subtle, incremental changes. It's either sweeping nerf into oblivion or overtune into the stratosphere.

Natashaelle
06-21-2017, 07:35 AM
On a scale of one to known issue, DoJ's AoE's from the end boss being broken beyond compare is definitely on the known side. It's on a very long list of "content that needs to be de-broken'd," don't worry.

You have such a good way with words, my dear.

Thank you, just generally for existing.

Wizza
06-21-2017, 07:43 AM
I don't think this will stop those who are crying for Warlock nerfs anyway.

And


The answer to imbues is clear and obvious: Make them work the same way as swashbuckling. Clearly the tech is already there.

When my swashbuckler equips a greatsword, the swashbuckling icon goes away in her buff bar but the actual swashbuckling stance on my hotbar is still active. When I switch back to brush hook + buckler, the icon re-appears in her buff bar without having to re-toggle the stance.

This is very good suggestion. +1

Don't fix it just for Wands and Scrolls. There are clickies to be used on Weapons, or simply switching for any reason. Having to re-activate imbues every time would be a pain.

zehnvhex
06-21-2017, 07:51 AM
Wow. This is the most reasonable statement about game balance I've seen from a dev in many, many months.

Looking forward to further nerfs of overpowered DPS, relative to content.

Here's the problem I have with it though. While I fully agree that warlocks needed to be retuned in heroics, everybody other then Fran did obviously, another pre-20 power build is getting buffed. Artificers are arguably already faster then warlocks pre-20 (But it requires being able to move backwards and, anecdotally speaking here, 90% of the player base is incapable of doing so) and they're getting a rather huge buff.

So figure that one out.

I mean part of the problem is that all spell dps builds become third-rate once you hit end game and warlocks were no exception. Once you hit like, R4+ content at level 30 you're either a DC wizard/evo druid or you go home. Even shiradi sorc start to lag behind pretty significantly.

zehnvhex
06-21-2017, 07:52 AM
I don't think this will stop those who are crying for Warlock nerfs anyway.

It won't. They're still incredibly easy to play. Every other pre-20 power build requires stutter stepping or walking backwards, two skills most of the whiners lack.

zehnvhex
06-21-2017, 07:53 AM
Don't fix it just for Wands and Scrolls. There are clickies to be used on Weapons, or simply switching for any reason. Having to re-activate Imbues every time would be a pain.

Or they could finally bite the bullet and make clickies like wands/scrolls/items work from inventory. I know, horror of horrors, sky would fall, etc...etc...

Natashaelle
06-21-2017, 08:01 AM
They're still incredibly easy to play.

I think that's WAI

Natashaelle
06-21-2017, 08:05 AM
Having to re-activate imbues every time would be a pain.

Indeed, and they do have the tech to keep activation of something up, and yet temporarily de-activate when conditions are not met -- because they've done the same with other abilities.

IIRC though, last time they needed to do something like this, first they had to fix the issue making manual re-activation necessary, then they fixed this secondary problem in a subsequent update.

Perhaps this is simply how they need to proceed.

Stoner81
06-21-2017, 08:11 AM
EDIT - Ignore this I'm an idiot!

Stoner81.

Greantun
06-21-2017, 08:14 AM
The answer to imbues is clear and obvious: Make them work the same way as swashbuckling. Clearly the tech is already there.

When my swashbuckler equips a greatsword, the swashbuckling icon goes away in her buff bar but the actual swashbuckling stance on my hotbar is still active. When I switch back to brush hook + buckler, the icon re-appears in her buff bar without having to re-toggle the stance.


Since I don't play AA with imbues, are they time limited? If so a stance would require new tech. They could change them, without new tech, to be bound to the weapon you cast them on, like Arti spells. Then when you switch to a different item it goes away, and comes back when you switch to the weapon.

These are both time bound and cost SP, so it would be closer, though you would have to cast it on every bow you are using.

Cantor
06-21-2017, 08:16 AM
Buck up boys, looks like 6 arti/6 fighter gonna be the new heroic ezmoad hotness.

HA! this was my first thought on reading the proposed arti changes.

Arch-Necromancer
06-21-2017, 08:23 AM
I LOVE the changes! :D

As for Warlocks, I would also suggest to take a look at balancing shapes. It makes no sense to me that Cone, that does damage to all mobs in wide and long area in front of you, gets the same 130% damage bonus from spellpower as single target shapes and that only Chain shape gets lower bonus (95%). Cone should be closer to Chain as both are multi-target shapes. Cone is even better IMO because Chain often misses fast moving targets.

NytCrawlr
06-21-2017, 08:39 AM
I mean part of the problem is that all spell dps builds become third-rate once you hit end game and warlocks were no exception. Once you hit like, R4+ content at level 30 you're either a DC wizard/evo druid or you go home. Even shiradi sorc start to lag behind pretty significantly.

Yes, full agreement here. We are definitely well over due for an update on a major spell pass, for every spell casting class. That includes adding in some more spells as well.

mr420247
06-21-2017, 08:40 AM
This is complete and total bs

Caster dps is already nerfed by 30 percent in reaper unlike melee

Now a 25-30 dps nerf might be reasonable for 50-60 but a 60-90 dps nerf

This is garbage considering ranged dps is not getting nerfed at all and

there getting a huge power upgrade with the update

If you want to nerf something broken on casters hella nerf charms those are so not wait its not even funny

Loromir
06-21-2017, 08:43 AM
As for Warlocks, I would also suggest to take a look at balancing shapes. It makes no sense to me that Cone, that does damage to all mobs in wide and long area in front of you, gets the same 130% damage bonus from spellpower as single target shapes and that only Chain shape gets lower bonus (95%). Cone should be closer to Chain as both are multi-target shapes. Cone is even better IMO because Chain often misses fast moving targets.

This for sure. I think this would have been a more effective nerf than the one were are getting. The single target Eldritch blast is fine right where it is now. The ability to hit multi targets at or near full power is where the OPness lies with Warlock.

mr420247
06-21-2017, 08:45 AM
You mean like how a barb cleaves for probly double the dps

Arch-Necromancer
06-21-2017, 09:16 AM
You mean like how a barb cleaves for probly double the dps

Barb's Cleave has at least some cooldown. On the other hand, Cone shape has the same attack speed as other shapes. Maybe it could be fixed that way, reducng the attack speed for Cone...

mr420247
06-21-2017, 09:20 AM
Aura and bursts have a cool down and blasts have a timer speed

Anaximandroz
06-21-2017, 09:21 AM
The warlock nerf is the turn undead all over again. its the 2nd time this month that the Standing people try to fix a scaling problem by nerfing the class and hurting build diversity.With turn undead we said is op in lower heroic but is very hard to make work in epics without gimping others abilities, so instead of giving scaling turn gear they go for redo the turn undead. Now theirs (2 years later) internal tests show warlock heroic dps is too high and silent about epic dps; what means was, at least, ok then (but looks like players agree is subpar in endgame); who knows after the nerf.

If the problem is just [B]heroic[B] dps then keep the 1d6 at lvls 1,4,8,12 and +2d6 at 16 and +3d6s at 20, that way the dps in most heroic content is nerfed but the class will be the same at epic level without feat taxes. And btw what is the ssg position on warlock dps in epics? Because if it is already subpar i would keep the change in the blasts feats. Same works for the Es enhancements, as ex.: bursts gets 1d6/5 warlock lvls, retributions is 1d3/1d4/1d6 per 8 warlock lvls.

mr420247
06-21-2017, 09:24 AM
You can dc bot or quit thats about it epics

zehnvhex
06-21-2017, 09:31 AM
SSG's new slogan.

"Design for the top 10% of players, balance for the bottom 10%."

Loromir
06-21-2017, 09:32 AM
Aura and bursts have a cool down and blasts have a timer speed

There is much more in the Warlock bag of tricks than Spirit Blast and Spirit Burst.

Cantor
06-21-2017, 09:41 AM
The fail with the nerf is not so much in heroic but that they need a way to buff it back up in epic without the feat tax and probably a bit more.

I don't consider it a feat tax, who is not taking those anyway? I would like to see both epic feats give 4d6 though.
Spiritual retribution doesn't need a Nerf, it's a massive ap sink.
I like the changes for heroics, but the light damage of bursts needs to scale with warlock caster level to get back up to speed in epics.

Iriale
06-21-2017, 09:42 AM
Hello!

Arcane Archer
With U36, the following changes are being made to Arcane Archer (both Elf and Ranger):


Arcane Archer Imbue toggles will only grant their effects while wielding a Longbow or Shortbow.
Arcane Archers must have a Longbow or Shortbow equipped to toggle on the Imbues from that tree. Equipping something other than a Longbow or Shortbow in your main hand will cause Arcane Archer Imbues to toggle off.

We need equip other weapons for breaking doors, webs, etc. It will be very annoying if the toggles off when we do this. Can you do this instead as the swashbuckling thing? (only active when you have the right weapon in hand, but not annoying toggles that go off…)




Warlocks
With U36, the following changes are being made to Warlocks:


Warlocks now receive Eldritch Blast base dice feats at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (for a total of 6d6 at level 20) instead of their previous progression. Characters will be automatically adjusted to match this new progression.
The Epic Eldritch Blast feat now grants 3d6 to Eldritch Blast.
The Epic Arcane Eldritch Blast Destiny feat now grants 4d6 to Eldritch Blast.


The above change alters the levels at which Warlocks add 1d6 to their base Eldritch Blast. On Live currently, when they reach level 20 they have 9d6; this change alters that to 6d6. To balance that against Epics, the two available Eldritch Blast feats have been increased to 3d6 and 4d6 (a net gain of +3d6, the same value that was removed from Heroics). As a result, by the time a Warlock reaches level 26, they can have exactly as many dice as they can get now.
Ok to Es changes, but I don't think that this is the best option for base Eldritch Blast. You don't need to do this. Lv 26 is a bit late for regain all the dps. You only need a smoother curve in the acquisition of the EB feats. Change to 1/4lvs, yes, but do that at lvs 12, 16 and 20 the damage is increased in +2d6 instead +1d6. In this way, in heroics warlocks have lesser damage, but at lv 20 is the same than now. Epics feats don't need changes.

(so: lv 1: 1d6, lv 4: 2d6; lv 8: 3d6; lv 12: 5d6; lv 16: 7d6; lv 20: 9d6)

With your proposal, you are forcing us to take the two epics feasts. That is not cool; we need options, and not more must haves. lv 26 is too very late for to regain the dps. Epics have mobs with too many hps since lv 20.


.



Spell Resistance
With U36, the following changes are being made to Spell Resistance:


Drow and Deep Gnome's Spell Resistance now stacks with all other sources of Spell Resistance.
The majority of item-based sources of Spell Resistance have had their values reduced by about 1/3.
Fury of the Wild's Ward against Weird ability is now a Primal bonus to Spell Resistance (stacking with most other sources) and has new values (5/30/60).

You are doing SR items useless for not drows or gnomes. And is an important investment in gear slots. That will break existent builds too. EllisDee37 have given you a better option. Convert the racial SR to insightful. Elegant, useful, not OP.



Aggro & Stealth
With U36, the following changes are being made to Aggro and Stealth:


Monsters will take the distance of their targets into account now. Closer targets are more likely to be targeted (assuming they have not yet taken much damage) compared to Live.
If a monster kills or loses their primary target, they’ll now aggro correctly on who has the most hate next (as opposed to the closest target, as they often do now on Live).
Monsters with the “see stealthed” property will now display an angry red eye icon to anyone observing them in stealth. Note: The see through stealth property, aka “tremor sense” is not True Sight or See Invisible. Those abilities don’t actually don’t affect sight checks against players just using the stealth skill. For example, Spiders and Slimes typically have the See Through Stealth property, per 3.5 edition rules. Red- and Purple-name bosses also tend to get this ability.

I don't know if that is useful or not, need see the changes in game. But the actual aggro is worse than silly. I would prefer revert the last aggro patch, but I hope that this will improve the game.




Area of Effect Spells
With U36, most Area of Effect spells cast by enemies (such as Ice Storm and Web) now have visible indicators of their boundaries on the ground. This should make more clear where enemy effects begin and end, and improve players' ability to analyze the battlefield.
ok, thanks

Vish
06-21-2017, 09:50 AM
You know, I could have been first responder to this thread
But I didnt have any snarky comments yesterday...
Decided to sleep on it.

Reduced es to 1d6 and 4d6? A 60% reduction
Man, that is overkill

I guess the first shall be the last

Gonna destroy some of my splash builds
And I was just getting ready to do some racials
At least play some warlocks for the gravy train
But that too is doa

Don't care sr
Don't care aa

Aggro. Well I charge into room, and,
Mobs run by me
So much for being the tank
Gotta chase mobs around,
Because they're chasing the casters
Aggro seems broken
Maybe this will do something

Who cares.
Everybody gonna be ranged now anyways
Oh that's right, arty buffs
So arty will be new warlock
That's ok I got vorpal light repeaters
Much better than es anyway,
Even before the nerf
Guess steel is happy

brian14
06-21-2017, 09:53 AM
Arcane Archer Imbue toggles will only grant their effects while wielding a Longbow or Shortbow.
Arcane Archers must have a Longbow or Shortbow equipped to toggle on the Imbues from that tree. Equipping something other than a Longbow or Shortbow in your main hand will cause Arcane Archer Imbues to toggle off.


Does it mean that every time I switch to melee weapon, then back to bow, I will have to reapply Imbue? That can be annoying.

Arctigis
06-21-2017, 10:10 AM
The warlock nerf is the turn undead all over again. its the 2nd time this month that the Standing people try to fix a scaling problem by nerfing the class and hurting build diversity.With turn undead we said is op in lower heroic but is very hard to make work in epics without gimping others abilities, so instead of giving scaling turn gear they go for redo the turn undead. Now theirs (2 years later) internal tests show warlock heroic dps is too high and silent about epic dps; what means was, at least, ok then (but looks like players agree is subpar in endgame); who knows after the nerf.

If the problem is just [B]heroic[B] dps then keep the 1d6 at lvls 1,4,8,12 and +2d6 at 16 and +3d6s at 20, that way the dps in most heroic content is nerfed but the class will be the same at epic level without feat taxes. And btw what is the ssg position on warlock dps in epics? Because if it is already subpar i would keep the change in the blasts feats. Same works for the Es enhancements, as ex.: bursts gets 1d6/5 warlock lvls, retributions is 1d3/1d4/1d6 per 8 warlock lvls.


Great post, thanks. I agree (and have also proposed) that burst damage should scale with
'lock level along similar lines to what you suggest. Is 3d6 really too high for Eldritch Burst?
- I think I can see 10D6 being OP at L12 but it is relatively weaksauce at L30.

Those clamouring for these nerfs have to remember that in heroic levels (i.e. no Epic Destinies)
'locks do not have access to damaging spells other than Evard's. Their blasts and bursts
are the equivalent of a bow or melee cleave. Better scaling with level allowing fine tuning
with spellpower would've been the right way to address this IMO. A ~60% damage output
cut for a T5 ability doesn't seem too great. It also misses the point that most of the guys
rofl stomping content, if they even go into ES, are doing it for Shining Through, light spellpower
and Retribution (and probably core4 for knockdown immunity). Not the bursts. Warlocks
'pay' for their utility and trash clearing capability (where web/tentacles+cone >>> bursts)
with limited Red Name DPS and virtually no burst DPS. These proposed changes don't seem
to recognise that. Single target DPS on a ranged build, caster, melee is significantly higher
than Warlock. Even in heroics (after level 6).

Iriale
06-21-2017, 10:13 AM
Steelstar, when changes for helping alts and new players with the insane grind? Heroic+racial feat in the same reincarnation, pls. Reaper xp server based. You have expanded the grind for veterans, but you have killed alts and the grind for a new player is too absurd.

Think in the sales of tomes and storage if you need a good reason for helping alts (besides to do happy people that likes to play more than 1 character... players who have been penalized for long time)

Benihim
06-21-2017, 10:15 AM
Why can't we ever have nice things

Because whiners

Arctigis
06-21-2017, 10:17 AM
Steelstar, when changes for helping alts and new players with the insane grind? Heroic+racial feat in the same reincarnation, pls. Reaper xp server based. You have expanded the grind for veterans, but you have killed alts and the grind for a new player is too absurd.

Their two best chances of narrowing that gap (AA && lock - both great 1st life toons) are now under the bus
too. Seems like a great job.

Benihim
06-21-2017, 10:23 AM
BS; you've just listened to the whiners. Again. You realise these changes affect epic levels too -
where ES Warlock DPS is average at best?

You honestly think a 300% reduction in Eldritch Burst light damage (3d6 -> 1d6) and a 250% reduction in Spirit
Blast light damage (10d6 -> 4d6) is even remotely reasonable? It's a huge nerf to a bursting Warlock.

Well, congrats to all those who already got their racial past lives done and I hope the crabs are super happy
in their bucket. For everyone else, I apologise, this always happens when I return to play this game. I've
now cancelled both my subs and will quit again - things should hopefully get better. Yes, you could have
my stuff if it wasn't all BTC and BTA and I could stomach logging on to give it to you.

I would say see you in 18 months or so but somehow I don't think that will be an option.

Same here ; i just canceled my sub as well . And yeah , whoever want can have all my things , including all my AS (2k , which i planned to buy another 1k to buy airship, and some more for XP shrines , Farshifter , guild vault . well no need to buy airship now)

I have to say ; the WHINERS are truly powerful ; all the Devs have to bow down to their will - Every time!

Iriale
06-21-2017, 10:24 AM
Their two best chances of narrowing that gap (AA && lock - both great 1st life toons) are now under the bus
too. Seems like a great job.
overpowered classes are not the best way of helping with this. If a player likes playing alts is because he wants to play toons with different builds. Nobody want to do 30 TRs with the same classs in different toons, that is absurd (3 toons.... 90 lives with the same classs... boooring... and add after the heroic lives) Newer players should be able to choose the class they like most without feeling useless outside warlock or AA.

The purpose of the devs is good. The way in which they suggest change is not entirely adequate, imo

Benihim
06-21-2017, 10:25 AM
Their two best chances of narrowing that gap (AA && lock - both great 1st life toons) are now under the bus
too. Seems like a great job.

Yeah good job in killing the game - killing it so fast its already dead before it actually comes live ! :))

Arctigis
06-21-2017, 10:29 AM
overpowered classes are not the best way of helping with this. If a player likes playing alts is because he wants to play toons with different builds. Nobody want to do 30 TRs with the same classs in different toons, that is absurd (3 toons.... 90 lives with the same classs... boooring... and add after the heroic lives) Newer players should be able to choose the class they like most without feeling useless outside warlock or AA.


Yes, that's my point. Try keeping up on one of those other classes without all the
ETRs and HTRs (and now RTRs and RXP) of the people you want to play with. Warlock
ES at least gave you the chance of doing this whilst being p1ss easy to play.



The purpose of the devs is good. The way in which they suggest change is not entirely adequate, imo

Time and time again they demonstrate they don't understand how their own game works
or is played.

sirgog
06-21-2017, 10:35 AM
Warlocks need this nerf in heroics, but I think you might be overdoing the Enlightened Spirit hit to light damage on epic level characters. ES light damage is broken in heroics but fair in epics. Warlocks are functional but far from overpowered in 20-30 content - I fear that with considerable weakening they will cease to be effective in that level range.



Suggestion:

Warlocks now receive Eldritch Blast base dice feats at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (for a total of 6d6 at level 20) instead of their previous progression. Characters will be automatically adjusted to match this new progression.

- Keep this.

The Epic Eldritch Blast feat now grants 3d6 to Eldritch Blast.

- Keep this.

The Epic Arcane Eldritch Blast Destiny feat now grants 4d6 to Eldritch Blast.

- Keep this. Consider making it available at a lower level than 26 (via another means) but the numbers are good. Maybe swap the dice bonuses between Epic Eldritch Blast and Epic Arcane Eldritch Blast Destiny.

In Enlightened Spirit, Eldritch Burst's additional Light damage is now 1d6.

- Change this to "Eldritch Burst's additional Light damage is now 1d6 if your character is level 19 or lower and remains 3d6 if your character is 20+".

In Enlightened Spirit, Spirit Blast's additional Light damage is now 4d6.

- Change this to "Spirit Blast's additional Light damage is now 4d6 if your character is level 19 or lower and remains 10d6 if your character is 20+".

In Enlightened Spirit, Spiritual Retribution's Light damage on all Eldritch Blasts and Weapon Attacks is now 1d4/2d4/3d4.

- Keep this.



Edit: Oh and disregard all the feedback from people claiming "Warlocks are fine in heroics do not nerf".

Those players lack the skill to build a warlock to its true potential. Warlocks with these nerfs in place will remain capable of breezing through Casual and Normal difficulties, which are the settings designed for those players.

cave_diver
06-21-2017, 10:37 AM
These changes are needed, and I approve.....which should be enough.

But to elaborate, not that ES warlocks are really op, but they were virtually unkillable in heroics, they shouldn't have almost the same DPS as TS/SE and be running around with super inflated bag of hp's that regenerates.

Same for the AA change, through my many RTR's, all I see people playing are repeater rangers for their imbues.....Archer is nit a shruiken nor a x-bow.

Maybe now I'ss start seeing more varied builds while doing my RTR's and not just the same old repeater ranger/ES auralock.

warlocks will still be OP if you build them right, repeater mechanics will still be OP as well, AA's with bows will still be awesome CC.

Live, learn, adapt......and if you rage quit the game ......Can I haz your stuff?

Iriale
06-21-2017, 10:41 AM
Yes, that's my point. Try keeping up on one of those other classes without all the
ETRs and HTRs (and now RTRs and RXP) of the people you want to play with. Warlock
ES at least gave you the chance of doing this whilst being p1ss easy to play.

But need warlocks for grinding lives is the bad way to do things. It is so boring repeat the same class again and again and again. Devs need incentive playing alts with different builds, that is fun. A new player should can choose the class that he likes most and not to be forced to warlock (and a new player has an expensive entrance to the game: a few packs, shared bank, maybe a few tomes, soon the expansions. An expensive store class should not be a must for a new player! They will buy after…)



Time and time again they demonstrate they don't understand how their own game works
or is played.
i have said this so many times. If devs had listen when warlock was a lammania class... but heh. They wanted to sell it fast, so they wanted it OP altough after they will angry players with nerfs...

mr420247
06-21-2017, 10:49 AM
You have to be in melee range to burst for f sakes

Are they going to hella nerf melee dps by 90 fn percent this is fn bs

Benihim
06-21-2017, 10:52 AM
So yet again you've given in to the Elitists with their "power builds" who want to pull the road up behind them!

This is DISGRACEFUL!

No Fran , these WHINERS that dictated what the devs are doing ( i.e. demands the devs to nerf warlock and AA imbues , and the devs obey) are no elitist nor are they playing with power builds . They are just a bunch of whiners , thats all they are. To call them elitist is wrong , cos they are but noobs .

Renvar
06-21-2017, 10:57 AM
Warlock change to Eldritch Blast is not so much a nerf, as a rebalancing of the curve. Moving 3d6 from heroic to epic levels. At the end, you have the same amount of damage. That's not a nerf.

Warlock change to Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast is a nerf, but AoE abilities with no mana cost, free metamagics, and a short cool down need to be carefully considered. I would have preferred other options, such as longer cool downs, but I get why they were changed. It really shouldn't affect anyone's game play all that much.

The AA imbue thing is not a nerf. It is clear from the description and the tree and the class that they were only ever supposed to work with bows. It was a bug that you could use them with other weapons with a massively higher ROF (thrower) or a massively higher damage profile (GxB). It was fun while it lasted, but if you use a bugged feature in a build, you should go into it knowing that they will probably, eventually correct the bug.

EDIT: I do think the methodology should be reviewed. Rather than having to re-toggle every time you change weapons, making it work like swash makes more sense. Agree with previous posters who made this suggestion.

The SR thing, I have mixed feelings about. i'll have to see the numbers. Hopefully they scaled it properly so that SR can be a viable option for any class/build that makes the gear investment, even if it isn't no fail and is very strong on races when the player makes an investment in AP in the racial tree. If it is such that only two races should bother with SR and otherwise it is worthless, then that will be disappointing.

EDIT: I do think that making racial SR an Insightful bonus and leaving gear as is would be a better way to go. Creates value for the racial, while still preserving the ability for non-racial builds to get an acceptable level of SR. Good ideas, again, by the community on this.

I hope the aggro mechanics changes work. I am a big fan of stealth in the game as an option. I like the idea of alternate methods for completing content/encounters. The game has greatly eliminated stealth as an option recently and that is to its detriment, I think. Of course, the number of quests where you can't advance/unlock a door without first killing all mobs continues to be a barrier to stealth options.

Arctigis
06-21-2017, 10:58 AM
Edit: Oh and disregard all the feedback from people claiming "Warlocks are fine in heroics do not nerf".


To be fair, not that many people are saying that. Just that the proposed nerfs cut too deep
and negatively impact epics where I would argue Warlock DPS is average.



Those players lack the skill to build a warlock to its true potential. Warlocks with these nerfs in place will remain
capable of breezing through Casual and Normal difficulties, which are the settings designed for those players.

Ironically this comment applies more (IMO of course) to the manifold threads about nerfing Warlock, specifically
bursting Warlocks. Those players who do have the skill to build a Warlock have been consistently saying
that ES is a trap and bursting is sub-optimal. The butt hurt seems to be specifically around bursting Warlocks
- which isn't even the strongest DPS build.

Phoenicis
06-21-2017, 11:02 AM
Those players who do have the skill to build a Warlock have been consistently saying
that ES is a trap and bursting is sub-optimal. The butt hurt seems to be specifically around bursting Warlocks
- which isn't even the strongest DPS build.

Which makes me wonder exactly how long after 36 goes live the next round of warlock nerf threads will start.

Arctigis
06-21-2017, 11:06 AM
Warlock change to Eldritch Blast is not so much a nerf, as a rebalancing of the curve. Moving 3d6 from heroic to epic levels. At the end, you have the same amount of damage. That's not a nerf.


Not getting the DPS you had at L20 until L26 now is not a nerf? I'd argue Warlock
DPS could use a buff here. Early-mid epic is going to feel painful.



Warlock change to Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast is a nerf, but AoE abilities with no mana cost,
free metamagics, and a short cool down need to be carefully considered.


Cleave? Greater Cleave? Whirlwind? Supreme Cleave? (cost is effectively 0) - these have no
costs (aside from feat costs in most cases). What other form of DPS do Warlocks have?

These abilities should have been changed to scale with level then tweaked with spell power
i.e. Eldritch Burst 1d6 per 6 character levels, Spirit Blast 1D6 per 2 character levels with dice
capped at number of Warlock levels.

FranOhmsford
06-21-2017, 11:08 AM
But need warlocks for grinding lives is the bad way to do things. It is so boring repeat the same class again and again and again. Devs need incentive playing alts with different builds, that is fun. A new player should can choose the class that he likes most and not to be forced to warlock (and a new player has an expensive entrance to the game: a few packs, shared bank, maybe a few tomes, soon the expansions. An expensive store class should not be a must for a new player! They will buy after…)



Hahahahahahahahaha!

So I'll just do all my Racial Lives as a Fighter 2 / Barbarian 18 instead of as Warlock Builds then!

The Devs put Racial TRs in to MAKE us run the Same Class over and over and over and over and over and over and over ad infinitum!
Who wants to mess around with different gear every life if they don't have to? The only reason to change Class when TRing was to get the Class Pastlives but once the first handful of them are done Racial Lives are much much more valuable now! TEN EXTRA AP BEATS EVERY OTHER PAST LIFE BONUS INTO A COCKED HAT!


And I can guarantee you there'll be another OP Build coming along soon enough - The reason this one {not that it was OP in the first place} is so hated is that it is EASY to Build and PLAY!
Look at the people congratulating the Devs and putting anyone down who likes Warlocks as they are as not skilled enough - Well there's plenty of unskilled players in DDO and I'm guessing the population is gonna drop like a stone if the Devs go through with this ludicrous nerf!

No I'm not going anywhere - I'm addicted to this game and what is called a Captive Audience! I'll be here till the game dies or I do! But Many many others WONT' BE!

mr420247
06-21-2017, 11:13 AM
Arti fighter def gona be op dps esp w only a 30 dps loss

All melee dps needs to be hella nerfd by 150 percent to even come close to being as horrible at a locks after this

garbage goes live

Iriale
06-21-2017, 11:19 AM
Hahahahahahahahaha!

So I'll just do all my Racial Lives as a Fighter 2 / Barbarian 18 instead of as Warlock Builds then!

The Devs put Racial TRs in to MAKE us run the Same Class over and over and over and over and over and over and over ad infinitum!
Who wants to mess around with different gear every life if they don't have to? The only reason to change Class when TRing was to get the Class Pastlives but once the first handful of them are done Racial Lives are much much more valuable now! TEN EXTRA AP BEATS EVERY OTHER PAST LIFE BONUS INTO A COCKED HAT!


And I can guarantee you there'll be another OP Build coming along soon enough - The reason this one {not that it was OP in the first place} is so hated is that it is EASY to Build and PLAY!
Look at the people congratulating the Devs and putting anyone down who likes Warlocks as they are as not skilled enough - Well there's plenty of unskilled players in DDO and I'm guessing the population is gonna drop like a stone if the Devs go through with this ludicrous nerf!

No I'm not going anywhere - I'm addicted to this game and what is called a Captive Audience! I'll be here till the game dies or I do! But Many many others WONT' BE!
for this they need to give a racial feat and an heroic feat together. That incentives to play more than one class and we don't need one overpowerd class for new players and alts. The grind for veterans with only a toon don't change. Alts and new players have a long grind yet, but at least they obtain some help. SSG gets more sales with alts. All gain. (reaper xp server based too, pls)

Heh i am altholic, but i would hate play all racials with the same class in all toons. That is booring. I play alts because I like to change of build and style of playing without waiting to a TR. Because I like to have toons ready for raids, toons on Tr trains, toons for playing with friends (who play a lot less than me)... And I like different builds in those alts...

SerPounce
06-21-2017, 11:21 AM
The balancing adjustment for warlock looks reasonable to me. Burst damage is still going to be decent in Heroics. Right now lvl 12-18 ES lock is wildly strong, they will still be good after this pass. Yes, there are other strong builds, but if you let that stop you from balancing then nothing will ever change.

Even in earlier epics locks do really well against trash. They'll still be OK, with lower damage until you get the two epic feats. The only place they really struggle in epic outside of reaper (which is a special case) is in boss fights in higher level epics. Even then it's overstated; so you have to stand there bursting for another couple minutes, big deal.

My second toon is a ES warlock doing epic PL, no plans to change that.

I don't know enough about x-bow and thrower rangers to speak to that.



[Maybe I'm mixing people up, but aren't some of the people complaining about the changes here are some of the same posters that have been screaming for warlocks nerfs daily... ]

Arctigis
06-21-2017, 11:24 AM
The second problem was that there was no need to multiclass because the base damage was so high it evaporated mobs. This was because the base damage of burst+blast of 79 damage die, combined with a 2 second aura tick of 33 damage die, was hitting for 112 damage die in 2 seconds, which is ridiculously higher than any other class in the game.


Whilst you raise a good point, we're talking about heroics so this is a little bit misleading. You
wouldn't get so many pact or blast dice and aura wouldn't tick every 2 seconds until L18. There's
also no way of boosting this. Other classes may have (considerably) lower baseline DPS but
are capable of boosting this significantly.



They are un-multiclassing the tree, by nerfing the base damage of the abilities, and the base damage of warlocks.
Basically, if SSG is nerfing one of my builds, they are probably doing it right.

I think they've gone too far. I think they could have scaled it better with character
level rather than flat nerfage.

kuzka111
06-21-2017, 11:27 AM
Hello!


U36 is shaping up to be a very large update, with some great new content, Artificer changes, and a fairly large number of Bug and Quality-of-Life fixes. There are a few of these changes we wanted to let you know about ahead of Lamannia in order to provide some design insight and provide a bit of advanced notice.


Arcane Archer
With U36, the following changes are being made to Arcane Archer (both Elf and Ranger):


Arcane Archer Imbue toggles will only grant their effects while wielding a Longbow or Shortbow.
Arcane Archers must have a Longbow or Shortbow equipped to toggle on the Imbues from that tree. Equipping something other than a Longbow or Shortbow in your main hand will cause Arcane Archer Imbues to toggle off.


For a very long time now, it's been possible to use Arcane Archer toggles with weapons that aren't bows. These abilities, by their wording, are only meant to work with Bows, but there are currently ways of getting around that and applying those effects to other weapons. The pass to Rangers circa Update 28 put some changes in place to stop this that were ultimately unsuccessful. We are interested in creating better balance between Bows, Crossbows, and other forms of ranged combat in the long term. In order to make that balance work, we need to finally fix Arcane Archer to work as it is intended to.


Warlocks
With U36, the following changes are being made to Warlocks:


Warlocks now receive Eldritch Blast base dice feats at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (for a total of 6d6 at level 20) instead of their previous progression. Characters will be automatically adjusted to match this new progression.
The Epic Eldritch Blast feat now grants 3d6 to Eldritch Blast.
The Epic Arcane Eldritch Blast Destiny feat now grants 4d6 to Eldritch Blast.
In Enlightened Spirit, Eldritch Burst's additional Light damage is now 1d6.
In Enlightened Spirit, Spirit Blast's additional Light damage is now 4d6.
In Enlightened Spirit, Spiritual Retribution's Light damage on all Eldritch Blasts and Weapon Attacks is now 1d4/2d4/3d4.


Internal and live data gathering has led to the conclusion that Warlock DPS is unquestionably too high in Heroic. It isn't simply a matter of their damage output relative to other classes (which is also too high), it's a matter of their power relative to content and other factors involved in overall game balance. Tuning other classes up to their level isn't an option; Warlock damage in Heroic needs to come down.

The above change alters the levels at which Warlocks add 1d6 to their base Eldritch Blast. On Live currently, when they reach level 20 they have 9d6; this change alters that to 6d6. To balance that against Epics, the two available Eldritch Blast feats have been increased to 3d6 and 4d6 (a net gain of +3d6, the same value that was removed from Heroics). As a result, by the time a Warlock reaches level 26, they can have exactly as many dice as they can get now.

The Enlightened Spirit changes bring the extra damage granted by these abilities closer in line with abilities in other classes. Having playtested with the changes, these abilities remain very potent.


Spell Resistance
With U36, the following changes are being made to Spell Resistance:


Drow and Deep Gnome's Spell Resistance now stacks with all other sources of Spell Resistance.
The majority of item-based sources of Spell Resistance have had their values reduced by about 1/3.
Fury of the Wild's Ward against Weird ability is now a Primal bonus to Spell Resistance (stacking with most other sources) and has new values (5/30/60).


In the U36 cycle, we set out to finally make Drow and Deep Gnome's racial Spell Resistance stack with other sources (as we said we would after the recent Race Tree pass). In analyzing the numbers involved, it came to our attention that the math used to determine what values new Cannith Crafting, new Lootgen, and recent Named Items calculated Spell Resistance at was wrong. As a result, the numbers available were much higher than we were comfortable with before adding in stacking Drow and Deep Gnomes.

With this change, a character without racial SR equipping maximum available sources of SR should be within striking distance of the necessary SR to resist high-difficulty monsters' spells. It will be very difficult (if not impossible at certain ranges) to get a no-fail value on those characters in high difficulties. With Drow and Deep Gnome values now stacking, however, those characters can much more easily compete against enemy spells.


Aggro & Stealth
With U36, the following changes are being made to Aggro and Stealth:


Monsters will take the distance of their targets into account now. Closer targets are more likely to be targeted (assuming they have not yet taken much damage) compared to Live.
If a monster kills or loses their primary target, they’ll now aggro correctly on who has the most hate next (as opposed to the closest target, as they often do now on Live).
Monsters with the “see stealthed” property will now display an angry red eye icon to anyone observing them in stealth. Note: The see through stealth property, aka “tremor sense” is not True Sight or See Invisible. Those abilities don’t actually don’t affect sight checks against players just using the stealth skill. For example, Spiders and Slimes typically have the See Through Stealth property, per 3.5 edition rules. Red- and Purple-name bosses also tend to get this ability.


These changes were the result of listening closely to player feedback and examination of monster AI in regards to stealth gameplay.


Area of Effect Spells
With U36, most Area of Effect spells cast by enemies (such as Ice Storm and Web) now have visible indicators of their boundaries on the ground. This should make more clear where enemy effects begin and end, and improve players' ability to analyze the battlefield.


Great news! :)

Cordovan
06-21-2017, 11:28 AM
If Warlock damage in the upper Epics ends up being too low, we can make further adjustments. Frankly, that outcome doesn't seem very likely.

Cordovan
06-21-2017, 11:29 AM
Every time this subject comes up I ask the same question, every time I get no official answer - PLEASE RESPOND?

At level 13 Monks get "Diamond Soul" giving them SR = 10+Monk Level. Currently this stacks with neither Racial nor Gear sources of SR.

What is your intended stacking or non-stacking for a Drow/Gnome + Diamond Soul + Gear? Edit: Or if it's a given that Racial will now stack with Diamond Soul (because "stacks with all other sources") what about even just Diamond Soul + Gear?

Diamond Soul is not currently planned to stack with Racial nor Gear sources of Spell Resistance, although it's something we can consider.

mr420247
06-21-2017, 11:29 AM
You mean like hellball and darkfire nerfs right

Renvar
06-21-2017, 11:31 AM
The Devs put Racial TRs in to MAKE us run the Same Class over and over and over and over and over and over and over ad infinitum!


Do you have a source on this? Or are you just making stuff up?

Cantor
06-21-2017, 11:35 AM
Their two best chances of narrowing that gap (AA && lock - both great 1st life toons) are now under the bus
too. Seems like a great job.

AA didn't get nerfed (hopefully if they fix swapping thing), shurikens and xbows with AA is an exploit, everyone knows it. If you were using you should have expected it to change, the only reason there is any negative response to an obvious exploit fix is that they let it go so long.

Loromir
06-21-2017, 11:36 AM
You have to be in melee range to burst for f sakes

Are they going to hella nerf melee dps by 90 fn percent this is fn bs

Bingo...you don't need to be in melee range for cone shape or chain shape. There's no cool down. No reduced casting rate. No spell points. Chain shape hits 3 mobs with a mild reduction of spell power and cone shape can hit even more with NO reduction in spell power.

Barbarian Cleves have a pretty heafty cool down. It's ludicrous to compare Warlocks to Barbarians.

dragons1ayer74
06-21-2017, 11:36 AM
Heroic warlock was/is a little OP last I looked their was more than one warlock tree...
IMO warlock should have been balanced by level :
1. So shining through is 1HP * CON * (every 2 Warlock levels)
2. Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast scale with X spell power were X is a good working number (X is a different number after level 20)


Also in general:
1. Stop making the game a grind fest
2. Knowing that 1 will not likely ever happen make it less of a grind
- Less Epic XP Required
- Less XP per multi-life TR
- More quest xp (especially in quests with terrible xp)
- More bonus xp as part of regular question (ie: group bonus)
- Racial TR get more bang for the effort (front load the good stuff and/or allow a True Bloody heart of wood to allow a Racial TR and Heroic TR)
- More Wayfinders to pay shards to get to PIA quest entrances
- Stop creating quests that force player to complete 1 way by beating up 10 trash monster with over inflated hit points
- Fix agro to allow real stealth options at all level of play (including reaper)
3. Stop killing the game for alts (as the power gap grow with each grind cycle this gets worse for alts and new players)
- Make reaper xp bound to account or a store option to make it bound to account
- Make some of the TR bonuses account wide (still keep most character based but if racial AP when earned via 3time RTR were tied to the account this is more fun and more build option for all of my characters on my account): sell this as a store option if you like
- No bound to character gear or sell a store item that allows for BTC item to be modified to a BTA item

Arctigis
06-21-2017, 11:38 AM
...(hopefully if they fix swapping thing)


And what does your magic 8 ball say about the chances of that? Steelstar's comment
was that the imbue would toggle off if you switched out the bow from your main hand
and would need to be toggled back on. Yeah, I'm not doing that.



, shurikens and xbows with AA is an exploit, everyone knows it. If you were using you should have expected it to change, the only reason there is any negative response to an obvious exploit fix is that they let it go so long.

Sure. I'm not doing that nor ever have. I think exploit is the wrong expression though.

Thar
06-21-2017, 11:40 AM
If Warlock damage in the upper Epics ends up being too low, we can make further adjustments. Frankly, that outcome doesn't seem very likely.

Warlocks only have the benefit of no sp usage for blasts in epic. I don't see the damage output as anything to speak of, especially before you can pick up the epic feat. The other destiny spells and feats do the big damage. Thats why I switched back to sorc. They have sp point conservation issues but at least i can kill stuff faster in epic. Both kill suffiently in heroic except warlock is better at lower levels due to no sp and chain.

J1NG
06-21-2017, 11:41 AM
Diamond Soul is not currently planned to stack with Racial nor Gear sources of Spell Resistance, although it's something we can consider.

Fail.

I'm not going to give reasons why it should be changed to similiar to the Racial Spell Resistance, so instead, I'll ask:

What is Standing Stone Game Dev's reasons for NOT applying this to the Monk ability as well?

I'd love to hear the reasons for not including it.

J1NG

mr420247
06-21-2017, 11:41 AM
Your right barbs have supreme dps and 200+ heal amp and blood tribute

Arctigis
06-21-2017, 11:41 AM
Bingo...you don't need to be in melee range for cone shape or chain shape. There's no cool down. No reduced casting rate. No spell points. Chain shape hits 3 mobs with a mild reduction of spell power and cone shape can hit even more with NO reduction in spell power.

Barbarian Cleves have a pretty heafty cool down. It's ludicrous to compare Warlocks to Barbarians.

Right. IMO web/tentacles + cone >>> everything else. Which is why these changes seem
bizarre, seem to be a sop to server forum whine posts and will hurt the players who rely on
it most. Not everyone treats a video game like a job; if these people no longer have fun they
just won't play. Does DDO seem like a game where that would be a good thing right now?

Thar
06-21-2017, 11:42 AM
Diamond Soul is not currently planned to stack with Racial nor Gear sources of Spell Resistance, although it's something we can consider.

if it doesn't it's useless so please consider.

Arctigis
06-21-2017, 11:43 AM
Warlocks only have the benefit of no sp usage for blasts in epic. I don't see the damage output as anything to speak of, especially before you can pick up the epic feat. The other destiny spells and feats do the big damage. Thats why I switched back to sorc. They have sp point conservation issues but at least i can kill stuff faster in epic. Both kill suffiently in heroic except warlock is better at lower levels due to no sp and chain.

I think you're wasting your breath. None of them seem to be good enough players to understand any of this.
At least Cordovan publicly demonstrates this on a regular basis.

J1NG
06-21-2017, 11:48 AM
if it doesn't it's useless so please consider.

Stop.

Let's hear what the Dev's reasons are for not including it first. I'd LOVE to hear them before we give our reasons why they NEED to be including it.

J1NG

Cantor
06-21-2017, 11:49 AM
Sure. I'm not doing that nor ever have. I think exploit is the wrong expression though.

No, it's not the wrong expression. You have to do things to make it work with not a bow, it doesn't just happen. It is an exploit.

Arctigis
06-21-2017, 11:49 AM
Bingo...you don't need to be in melee range for cone shape or chain shape. There's no cool down. No reduced casting rate. No spell points. Chain shape hits 3 mobs with a mild reduction of spell power and cone shape can hit even more with NO reduction in spell power.


This is only lightly touched (when pact damage etc. is considered). Cleave attacks on melees
don't cost anything either - aside from the feats. IPS doesn't cost anything apart from the
feat. Melee/ranged classes also have access to other sources of DPS which Warlocks don't.
It seems foolish to compare a single aspect of one class to the other in the discussion of
balance.



Barbarian Cleves have a pretty heafty cool down. It's ludicrous to compare Warlocks to Barbarians.

The correct comparison of Cleaves is to Bursts where the cooldowns are almost identical -
except Barbarian gets Supreme Cleave which gets a much shorter cooldown.

slarden
06-21-2017, 11:56 AM
Reducing warlock dps for heroic while keeping it the same for cap makes sense. Same with bow imbues applying to only bows.

Still you you gave casuals an easy button and now you are taking it away while at the same time adding huge perks for the most difficult setting. Will you never learn Ssg?

slarden
06-21-2017, 11:57 AM
This is only lightly touched (when pact damage etc. is considered). Cleave attacks on melees
don't cost anything either - aside from the feats. IPS doesn't cost anything apart from the
feat. Melee/ranged classes also have access to other sources of DPS which Warlocks don't.
It seems foolish to compare a single aspect of one class to the other in the discussion of
balance.



The correct comparison of Cleaves is to Bursts where the cooldowns are almost identical -
except Barbarian gets Supreme Cleave which gets a much shorter cooldown.

as usual it's random precision

Arctigis
06-21-2017, 12:02 PM
Still you you gave casuals an easy button and now you are taking it away while at the same time adding huge perks for the most difficult setting. Will you never learn Ssg?

Not much more to say really...

Selvera
06-21-2017, 12:13 PM
Everyone agrees that warlocks to too much damage in heroics; I don't see much arguing with the nerfs from a heroic standpoint. Yet people think that warlocks are overly nerfed from levels 20-25, as if there's a huge power-jump in content between levels 19 and 20. And there is; the power of epic destinies is huge and you instantly get all that power at level 20.

Other casters get lots of +caster level power immediately when they put on a caster destiny; making up their big power gain when they reach level 20; and it seems quite reasonable to me (who has never played a warlock outside of a test character, but has seen many), that warlocks could get a big power-boost in the same way. Any arcane-sphere destiny could grant warlocks +1d6 eldrich blast damage in 3 of the cores; for a total of +3d6 damage in all epic levels. This, in combination with the buffs to the feats would tone up warlocks epic-damage while still toning down their heroic damage; as long as they play in an arcane tree (build decisions here... do they want more defense or more damage?).

The reduction of damage on warlocks burst/blast really doesn't matter all that much. It's a 10%-20% damage nerf in their tank-enhancement tree on a cleave-like ability which is objectively better then cleave in every aspect (Cone size, radius, damage) for nearly the entire game. Adding the extra dice I suggested above would bring the damage back up to nearly where it was before in epic levels.

I'm not as excited about the toning down of warlock's melee + ranged damage (spiritual retribution); I understand that this makes sense from a blast/burst/cone perspective; but for swords and arrows? But it's not a over-nerf; it's an average nerf of 1 damage per point per attack (before spellpower).

AA imbues were a long time coming. I hope they do it like swashbuckling stance as suggested previously; where it doesn't toggle on/off; it just only works with longbows and shortbows. Every exploit repeater-imbues and shuri-imbues build comes with the warning "this is a blatant exploit that SSG will fix someday, so don't be surprised when they do" (Or should have, along with all wolf exploit builds). I can still see repeater and shuriken builds being strong builds even without exploits; especially in epics when they get access to destinies.

I haven't played much of a stealth build since after the changes; but what always annoyed me before the changes was how someone in stealth would always draw agro of the whole room; even if there was a very obvious barbarian whacking the mob in the face who was not stealthed. I don't see any reason why being seen when in stealth should draw any more agro then being seen when not in stealth; both characters are seen.

I've been following a different thread; and all the bugfixes that are advertised in U36 are very enticing! Looking forwards to that.

It would have been nice to have the divine passes in the same patch as the artificer pass; but I guess I'll have to wait for that. Still concerned that the artificer pass buffs the already-powerful artificer builds (repeaters) a lot while not buffing the weaker artificer builds (melee) very much; further pushing artificer into a ranged-only class choice.

I'm also of the opinion that you should be able to get a heroic pastlife and a racial pastlife with the same reincarnation. Feel free to double the TR timer before/after doing that if you wish; those who benefit from this change won't care because it takes them a lot longer then 6 days to get a single pastlife. The people who are ahead will stay ahead, they don't have to worry.

Jetrule
06-21-2017, 12:20 PM
Bingo...you don't need to be in melee range for cone shape or chain shape. There's no cool down. No reduced casting rate. No spell points. Chain shape hits 3 mobs with a mild reduction of spell power and cone shape can hit even more with NO reduction in spell power.

Barbarian Cleaves have a pretty hefty cool down. It's ludicrous to compare Warlocks to Barbarians.

The real difference when I play a aura blasting ES warlock is that you dont have to be quite in mele range. The blast and burst radius is at least twice that of melee cleaves and works from any direction. Even overhead or underneath. Its a blast globe aoe. I play my aura blast by jumping in circles around a pack and melting them rarely taking a hit and my melees simply cannot do that. If nothing else it allows for a higher skull level of play than I can hope for on my melee's.

Warlock is not top tier in dps on a single static target but the ability to melt packs of mobs unharmed makes it in practice top tier dps on trash clearing, My preferred heroic style of cone blasting is awesome aoe dps too. But it lacks the toughness to take occasional big hits or handle groups of hard hitting archers, and the ability to circle kite while dpsing mobs beside under and behind you that aura blast does. So in epics I switch to ES. I may be a poor player but I have played every class level 1-cap 28 or 30. I know that in raids and pugs it is common for my lock to be at or near kill count lead and fewest deaths all with constant crowd control. The same can be said for some other builds I play but warlock is the easiest for me and more likely to be there. Even in toughest content in some quests.

I will agree that at some point in tough reaper content a crowd control and insta kill warlock becomes more successful than a a tanky evoker warlock. In many quests at least. Because there is a point at which even a E.S. warlocks defenses become insufficient to avoid a one shot kill and the higher d.c. CC and Insta kills are a better option. So I imagine this nerf will make that style of warlock play more attractive. But only in truly tough content.

Retired_Old_Gamer
06-21-2017, 12:22 PM
If Warlock damage in the upper Epics ends up being too low, we can make further adjustments. Frankly, that outcome doesn't seem very likely.


That is quote worthy sir. But I won't relinquish what I currently use. :cool:

Eryhn
06-21-2017, 12:30 PM
I'd love to hear the reasons for not including it.

J1NG

Don't you sense the "this is more work than the other thing (cause then we would have to balance racial + gear + enhances atop) so we would rather silently wiggle around it" mood here? :D

J1NG
06-21-2017, 12:42 PM
Don't you sense the "this is more work than the other thing (cause then we would have to balance racial + gear + enhances atop) so we would rather silently wiggle around it" mood here? :D

Oh, that's why I'm asking for their reason first. Should be interesting what the answer is.

J1NG

Tlorrd
06-21-2017, 12:44 PM
Since the nerf bat is swinging hard, here are a few suggestions with regards to warlock. Some of these are from other people.

Distribute the scaling better for heroics to end EB with 6d6 at cap, per previous suggestions.

Keep epic feat at 3d6 (level 21) and ED feat at 4d6 (level 26)

Add in Mastery of Eldritch (level 24) which will add 3d6.

Thus those early epics will not be too harshly hit.

Then how about smaller changes to ES ...

T3 EB 2d6
T4 retribution 1d4/2d4/3d4 (I guess this ok)
T5 SB 6d6

Selvera
06-21-2017, 12:44 PM
The real difference when I play a aura blasting ES warlock is that you dont have to be quite in mele range. The blast and burst radius is at least twice that of melee cleaves and works from any direction. Even overhead or underneath. Its a blast globe aoe. I play my aura blast by jumping in circles around a pack and melting them rarely taking a hit and my melees simply cannot do that. If nothing else it allows for a higher skull level of play than I can hope for on my melee's.


This is essentially what I meant when I said burst/blast is a cleave like ability that is objectively better then cleave. Even if burst/blast did half the damage of cleave; the double range and globe-AoE would still make them better abilities for the majority of higher-skull completions. Perhaps not for healing enemies, but those are rather rare; for everything else, not being hit is more powerful then everything else, when enemies can 2-3 hit you.

Ovrad
06-21-2017, 12:45 PM
Diamond Soul is not currently planned to stack with Racial nor Gear sources of Spell Resistance, although it's something we can consider.

You're trying to make spell resistance relevant again for everyone, and you "might consider" fixing it for monks as well?
Just so you know, this is the sort of comment that makes the player base think you are actively ignoring some classes.

If you're fixing something, do it right.

generalfoley
06-21-2017, 12:48 PM
Hahahahahahahahaha!

So I'll just do all my Racial Lives as a Fighter 2 / Barbarian 18 instead of as Warlock Builds then!



Would be irrelevant if it takes you 4 years to level to 20 anyway

generalfoley
06-21-2017, 12:54 PM
Will you never learn Ssg?

Not a chance

Tlorrd
06-21-2017, 12:57 PM
Here's how jacked SSG balancing is too ...

Look at BE changes T2 caustic shot
3d6 acid damage (and 10d6 rust damage, but let's forget this part for a second) scales with spell power. Cooldown 6secs.

And look at new T3 EB which is 1d6 light damage.

ES Warlocks have to group up mobs and be in close range, Arti/ranged are far away and use IPS ... Am I the only one who sees how ridiculous SSG thinks their "balance" is really balancing.

mr420247
06-21-2017, 12:59 PM
Its complete bs

Esp if they don't nerf melee dps by 100 percent too

Jetrule
06-21-2017, 01:11 PM
Here's how jacked SSG balancing is too ...

Look at BE changes T2 caustic shot
3d6 acid damage (and 10d6 rust damage, but let's forget this part for a second) scales with spell power. Cooldown 6secs.

And look at new T3 EB which is 1d6 light damage.

ES Warlocks have to group up mobs and be in close range, Arti/ranged are far away and use IPS ... Am I the only one who sees how ridiculous SSG thinks their "balance" is really balancing.

I think that caustic shot looks much more attractive now then when I first saw it. But all I could see at first was mixing at least 6 arti with at least 4 ranger for imbues.

Steelstar
06-21-2017, 01:17 PM
Here's how jacked SSG balancing is too ...

Look at BE changes T2 caustic shot
3d6 acid damage (and 10d6 rust damage, but let's forget this part for a second) scales with spell power. Cooldown 6secs.

And look at new T3 EB which is 1d6 light damage.

ES Warlocks have to group up mobs and be in close range, Arti/ranged are far away and use IPS ... Am I the only one who sees how ridiculous SSG thinks their "balance" is really balancing.

In the vast majority of scenarios, even after the changes, Eldritch Burst does significantly more damage than Caustic Shot. This is primarily due to all damage portions of Eldritch Burst scaling with Spell Power (unlike Caustic Shot), and Eldritch Burst benefiting from Metamagics (unlike Caustic Shot). If you aren't using Metamagics at all, I can somewhat see your point... But Warlocks by and large do, and it was definitely a factor in the very long process we went through before making these Warlock changes.

peng
06-21-2017, 01:21 PM
Diamond Soul is not currently planned to stack with Racial nor Gear sources of Spell Resistance, although it's something we can consider.

Please do consider it. It's in the same position as racial sr (not enough on its own to make much difference), but gives less total sr than racial.

Tlorrd
06-21-2017, 01:25 PM
In the vast majority of scenarios, even after the changes, Eldritch Burst does significantly more damage than Caustic Shot. This is primarily due to all damage portions of Eldritch Burst scaling with Spell Power (unlike Caustic Shot), and Eldritch Burst benefiting from Metamagics (unlike Caustic Shot). If you aren't using Metamagics at all, I can somewhat see your point... But Warlocks by and large do, and it was definitely a factor in the very long process we went through before making these Warlock changes.

You're being selective in your comparison ... Are you forgetting rune arm imbues that will stack with ranged power, weapon bonuses (i.e. divine artillery or fatal flaw or any other crafted weapon with whatever bonus ... The only spell ones like that are lantern ring and resonation in epics and not heroics). Red augments that add damage. You made only a comparison with metamagics. And these bonuses will stack on top of caustic shot .... Similar to Eblasts adding to Eburst.

Qezuzu
06-21-2017, 01:57 PM
Can we get some clarification on one of the aggro changes?

"If a monster kills or loses their primary target, they’ll now aggro correctly on who has the most hate next (as opposed to the closest target, as they often do now on Live)."

Does this mean that, if a mob loses track of a player and enters its searching behavior, it will instead immediately switch to the next player on its hate list?
Or does it mean that mobs will switch to the next player in its hate list once it gives up searching?

Does this also fix mobs attacking dead players?

EllisDee37
06-21-2017, 02:08 PM
re-toggling imbues every 5 seconds when you have to break down a stupid web/root wall etc. won't get old fast
We need equip other weapons for breaking doors, webs, etc. It will be very annoying if the toggles off when we do this. Can you do this instead as the swashbuckling thing? (only active when you have the right weapon in hand, but not annoying toggles that go off…)This is a legitimate concern that needs to be addressed by the dev team.

There are many, many quests where there are many places where you simply cannot advance unless you equip a melee weapon: Root walls, webs, and (some) locked doors. If we now have to re-activate AA imbues every time we switch to a melee weapon, could you go through and re-code all those to allow arrows to break them as well?

Or, the better option, adopt the swashbuckling model.


Since I don't play AA with imbues, are they time limited?No, they're stances. You can turn them on once when you log on and then forget them, unless you specifically need to change them. (eg: You need to switch to the ghost touch imbue, or your standard imbue is an element that heals the enemy you're facing, like acid vs arcane ooze, etc...)

EllisDee37
06-21-2017, 02:13 PM
You're trying to make spell resistance relevant again for everyone, Actually, they're very clearly trying to do the opposite. Right now on live, spell resistance can be relevant for every build; if you want to build for it and have it be meaningful, you can. The only problem is that races and classes who are supposed to be better at it are currently no better than anyone else. But to be clear: EVERYONE can build for useful spell resistance if they choose to.

The stated "fix" to this situation is to nerf spell resistance into the ground (cutting it by 1/3rd) for everyone EXCEPT drow or gnome, and then buffing drow/gnome above what the current standard on live is. The clear design goal is to make spell resistance useless for the vast majority of builds, leaving it only viable (and way stronger than it is now) for drow and gnomes.

And now that they have clarified that monks can go pound sand, I long for the halcyon days of Turbine.

ice584
06-21-2017, 02:14 PM
I put together a quick sheet so I could play around with all the numbers and see where my personal configuration would end up:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1p0xtuVFfrSac3y-D569F2ac3HS5Y1cU6GotT-6Bwse0

Now, the thing I was forgetting when I first started putting this together (and I think what many people might also be forgetting) was that you have to look at Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast individually because they are separate attacks with differing base/starting damage. Spirit Blast is "losing" 6d6 damage with the proposed changes, yes, but it's not 6d6 from ALL Eldritch attacks and it's not a 66% reduction of the overall damage for Spirit Blast.

If I did all my maths (as in more than one math XD) correctly...looks like my Warlock configuration would only lose about 9% damage with Eldritch Burst and 18% damage with Spirit Blast. Even if you discount pact damage entirely, that still only brings Eldritch Burst to a 13% reduction and Spirit Blast to a 24% reduction.

IMO, that's about where it should've been when I think about how my previous full-Warlock build played. I think these changes will also reduce the damage potential you'll get when multi-classing with ES, which I think is also needed. Currently, adding 6 warlock to virtually any class configuration can give you an (IMO) overly strong burst/blast. Now, if you don't pick up a lot of the enhancements to boost Eldritch/Pact dice you'll obviously have a greater % loss than others because you're relying more heavily on the base damage from the burst/blast.

I think changing the dice configuration is a better move over adjusting the SpellPower scaling.

TL;DR
Eldritch Burst reduced 9% (incl. pact damage) or 13% (ignoring pact damage) for my build.
Spirit Blast reduced 18% (incl. pact damage) or 24% (ignoring pact damage) for my build.
Every build is different, so your % results may vary.

Just my 2 plat. :)

Tlorrd
06-21-2017, 02:40 PM
In the vast majority of scenarios, even after the changes, Eldritch Burst does significantly more damage than Caustic Shot. This is primarily due to all damage portions of Eldritch Burst scaling with Spell Power (unlike Caustic Shot), and Eldritch Burst benefiting from Metamagics (unlike Caustic Shot). If you aren't using Metamagics at all, I can somewhat see your point... But Warlocks by and large do, and it was definitely a factor in the very long process we went through before making these Warlock changes.

I do appreciate your sentiments about the very long process and tough decisions that need to be made.

Bluebird6757
06-21-2017, 02:40 PM
[QUOTE=Selvera;5986481]Everyone agrees that warlocks to too much damage in heroics; I don't see much arguing with the nerfs from a heroic standpoint. Yet people think that warlocks are overly nerfed from levels 20-25, as if there's a huge power-jump in content between levels 19 and 20. And there is; the power of epic destinies is huge and you instantly get all that power at level 20.

Other casters get lots of +caster level power immediately when they put on a caster destiny; making up their big power gain when they reach level 20; and it seems quite reasonable to me (who has never played a warlock outside of a test character, but has seen many), that warlocks could get a big power-boost in the same way. Any arcane-sphere destiny could grant warlocks +1d6 eldrich blast damage in 3 of the cores; for a total of +3d6 damage in all epic levels. This, in combination with the buffs to the feats would tone up warlocks epic-damage while still toning down their heroic damage; as long as they play in an arcane tree (build decisions here... do they want more defense or more damage?).

The reduction of damage on warlocks burst/blast really doesn't matter all that much. It's a 10%-20% damage nerf in their tank-enhancement tree on a cleave-like ability which is objectively better then cleave in every aspect (Cone size, radius, damage) for nearly the entire game. Adding the extra dice I suggested above would bring the damage back up to nearly where it was before in epic levels.

Why do you assume that everyone has maxed-out epic destinies? Yes, it would be nice if you got "all that power" instantly at level 20, but for my toons (all in their first-third lives) that power is pretty much non-existant. Three of my toons are warlocks and 2 I'm going to have to TR before the update hits. One is in her first life and almost exclusively solos (she's on Wayfinder and not in a big guild so not much choice), I thought the divine destinies offered a lot more in terms of survivability and self-healing so I maxed those. The arcane destinies don't seem to offer that much for a warlock - I didn't even max one out for the epic blast. Probably should have, but I was in a hurry to get to the divine destinies and figured I'd cover it in the next warlock life. The other toon is in her second life, but started out as a terrible hybrid paladin (made long, long ago and more than a little suboptimal) so very little ED progress made there. I was going to max out divine destinies, then work my way over to the primal tree for Rejuvination Cocoon (my next life was never going to be warlock or a caster).

Now with the changes I feel that I'll be forced to max an arcane destiny to take epic blast, which is really annoying. Also I do fear that levels 20-25 are going to be a no-man's land of power for warlocks unless you have most EDs maxed. I guess I could join the EN dailies (which I detest) and pike. Yay.

Arctigis
06-21-2017, 03:00 PM
Now with the changes I feel that I'll be forced to max an arcane destiny to take epic blast, which is really annoying. Also I do fear that levels 20-25 are going to be a no-man's land of power for warlocks unless you have most EDs maxed. I guess I could join the EN dailies (which I detest) and pike. Yay.

Right. This is the actual impact of these changes. The players who were the subject of the manifold nerf warlock threads
are going to be relatively unaffected. In short, there'll still be manifold nerf warlock threads (along with the nerf
artificer threads and a precursor to the nerf cleric domains threads).

Selvera
06-21-2017, 03:04 PM
Why do you assume that everyone has maxed-out epic destinies? Yes, it would be nice if you got "all that power" instantly at level 20, but for my toons (all in their first-third lives) that power is pretty much non-existant. Three of my toons are warlocks and 2 I'm going to have to TR before the update hits. One is in her first life and almost exclusively solos (she's on Wayfinder and not in a big guild so not much choice), I thought the divine destinies offered a lot more in terms of survivability and self-healing so I maxed those. The arcane destinies don't seem to offer that much for a warlock - I didn't even max one out for the epic blast. Probably should have, but I was in a hurry to get to the divine destinies and figured I'd cover it in the next warlock life. The other toon is in her second life, but started out as a terrible hybrid paladin (made long, long ago and more than a little suboptimal) so very little ED progress made there. I was going to max out divine destinies, then work my way over to the primal tree for Rejuvination Cocoon (my next life was never going to be warlock or a caster).

Now with the changes I feel that I'll be forced to max an arcane destiny to take epic blast, which is really annoying. Also I do fear that levels 20-25 are going to be a no-man's land of power for warlocks unless you have most EDs maxed. I guess I could join the EN dailies (which I detest) and pike. Yay.

I don't, and I agree that leveling ED's can suck; but that's true for every class and every character. However; a single run from 20-30 can max you 4 destinies; meaning in 3 ETR's you can have all of them maxed. I've taken a messed up near-useless melee/non-pure caster build that I forced my way to get to level 20 with into EN dalies (with off-destanies) and was able to contribute because they're just that easy. I think a warlock would have no problem leveling the arcane sphere in EN with or without a party.

And if the bonuses are in cores 0, 2 and 5 of the epic destinies, they would get +1d6 immediately upon hitting epics even if they're a first-lifer, able to fill out the other +2d6 by about level 24.

Arctigis
06-21-2017, 03:11 PM
I don't, and I agree that leveling ED's can suck; but that's true for every class and every character. However; a single run from 20-30 can max you 4 destinies; meaning in 3 ETR's you can have all of them maxed. I've taken a messed up near-useless melee/non-pure caster build that I forced my way to get to level 20 with into EN dalies (with off-destanies) and was able to contribute because they're just that easy. I think a warlock would have no problem leveling the arcane sphere in EN with or without a party.

And if the bonuses are in cores 0, 2 and 5 of the epic destinies, they would get +1d6 immediately upon hitting epics even if they're a first-lifer, able to fill out the other +2d6 by about level 24.

So, the solution to restoring the removed power is to grind EDs to get it back. But wait!, there are
whiny forum threads about there being too much grind. Just wait for those complaints to be listened
to, get your racial AP and EDs for free!. Profit!. You can thank me later...

NytCrawlr
06-21-2017, 03:16 PM
So, the solution to restoring the removed power is to grind EDs to get it back. But wait!, there are
whiny forum threads about there being too much grind. Just wait for those complaints to be listened
to, get your racial AP and EDs for free!. Profit!. You can thank me later...

Pffft. There is far too much grind in this game. ;)

I at least don't want what already exists to be free, I just want them to stop tackling more onto it. :)

A proper endgame to put to use some of the hamster wheel grinding, would be nice as well.

Pretty sure I am not alone in that sentiment.

Arctigis
06-21-2017, 03:19 PM
Pffft. There is far too much grind in this game. ;)

I at least don't want what already exists to be free, I just want them to stop tackling more onto it. :)

Pretty sure I am not alone in that sentiment.

Yeah, I agree - my post was meant to be tongue in cheek ;)

It should definitely be possible to get a class and a racial past life in the same run IMO (even if
it costs two hearts to do it). And the first racial life is a joke - an obvious speed bump if there
ever was one.

Benihim
06-21-2017, 03:48 PM
In the vast majority of scenarios, even after the changes, Eldritch Burst does significantly more damage than Caustic Shot. This is primarily due to all damage portions of Eldritch Burst scaling with Spell Power (unlike Caustic Shot), and Eldritch Burst benefiting from Metamagics (unlike Caustic Shot). If you aren't using Metamagics at all, I can somewhat see your point... But Warlocks by and large do, and it was definitely a factor in the very long process we went through before making these Warlock changes.

Warlock is the only option viable for grinding the colossal amount of Reaper XP in the game as the state of the game right now. In stead of rising the power of other classes , to make other classes more attractive , to give players more choices to run with when grinding out the massive grind ( RTR\RXP in addition to HTR), you took away power from player base. GReat decision - great for killing the game and give yourself an opportunity to look for a new job.. Time to be honest to yourself ! : ITS NOT WARLOCK THATS OP , ITS RATHER ALL THE OTHER CLASSES THATS UP (underpowered) compare to Champs with Ozillion buffs , Reapers that one shot you.

WHY NOT KEEP warlock AS IT IS , AND ADD MORE POWER TO ALL OTHER CLASSES? you will surely have a bigger playerbase and getting more subs that way!

Anyway
Good luck with the changes

cave_diver
06-21-2017, 03:59 PM
Warlock is the only option viable for grinding the colossal amount of Reaper XP in the game as the state of the game right now. In stead of rising the power of other classes , to make other classes more attractive , to give players more choices to run with when grinding out the massive grind ( RTR\RXP in addition to HTR), you took away power from player base. GReat decision - great for killing the game and give yourself an opportunity to look for a new job.. Time to be honest to yourself ! : ITS NOT WARLOCK THATS OP , ITS RATHER ALL THE OTHER CLASSES THATS UP (underpowered) compare to Champs with Ozillion buffs , Reapers that one shot you.

WHY NOT KEEP warlock AS IT IS , AND ADD MORE POWER TO ALL OTHER CLASSES? you will surely have a bigger playerbase and getting more subs that way!

Anyway
Good luck with the changes

ummm yea sure it is......ohh yea I forgot, I managed to grind out 30 reaper points without playing warlock once, all melee toons mostly monk & barb, but some mechanic as well.

almost all classes if YOU BUILD THEM properly are fine, warlock will be fine after the nerf, I will even say that it will still be the easy button after U36...but again ES is an awful enchantment tree and always has

Morroiel
06-21-2017, 04:04 PM
Warlock is the only option viable for grinding the colossal amount of Reaper XP in the game as the state of the game right now. In stead of rising the power of other classes , to make other classes more attractive , to give players more choices to run with when grinding out the massive grind ( RTR\RXP in addition to HTR), you took away power from player base. GReat decision - great for killing the game and give yourself an opportunity to look for a new job.. Time to be honest to yourself ! : ITS NOT WARLOCK THATS OP , ITS RATHER ALL THE OTHER CLASSES THATS UP (underpowered) compare to Champs with Ozillion buffs , Reapers that one shot you.

WHY NOT KEEP warlock AS IT IS , AND ADD MORE POWER TO ALL OTHER CLASSES? you will surely have a bigger playerbase and getting more subs that way!

Anyway
Good luck with the changes

This is a list of build archetypes that are either inline with warlock or better than warlock for efficiently grinding out rpls and reaper xp (1-20):

Classic Arti (this will be even more effective)
Barbarian (better for low skulls but can make it work up to skull 5 if you have epls)
Monk handwraps wis/dex/con (amazeballs for all skull levels up till about level 15, epls and hpls make a big difference)
Sorc (swap between fire/earth/air depending on content) DC (optimally skull 4-6; requires positioning and game knowledge, as well as, stacks of pls)
Wiz DC charmer (optimal for skull 4-10, need stacks of pls and quality gear, positioning and game knowledge, most importantly this one is only optimal if you have a high single target dps duo partner)
repeater xbow variants (these will be slightly weaker now that arcane archer is fixed, but its still one of the stronger builds out there -> modifications will probably be made 6 fighter/6 arti looking good theory wise)
Dex based twf ranger (after the fix will probably see a return to the limelight -> much like the monk, has a ton of avoidance)
I'm sure I'm missing something.

*disclaimer: not all of these are more effective than warlock at each and every skull level, barbarian is quite frankly horrible at skull 8-10 (imo). Some of these (arti) are better at every skull and character level (1-20) than a traditional ES warlock build.

Note that most if not all of these require things that the traditional ES warlock doesn't -> game knowledge, positioning ability, twitch skills, stacks of pls, and/or more frequent respeccing during level ups to tune toon to content.

Renvar
06-21-2017, 04:06 PM
Warlock is the only option viable for grinding the colossal amount of Reaper XP in the game

I disagree. Warlock may be the easiest option, but not the only option.

Also, Reaper is about challenge, not giving you an easy XP grind. Buffing all the other classes to make reaper easier for you to grind does not support the goals of reaper.

Phoenicis
06-21-2017, 04:12 PM
Note that most if not all of these require things that the traditional ES warlock doesn't -> game knowledge, positioning ability, twitch skills, stacks of pls, and/or more frequent respeccing during level ups to tune toon to content.

And THIS is why people gravitate toward warlocks.

Benihim
06-21-2017, 04:13 PM
This is a list of build archetypes that are either inline with warlock or better than warlock for efficiently grinding out rpls and reaper xp (1-20):

Classic Arti (this will be even more effective)
Barbarian (better for low skulls but can make it work up to skull 5 if you have epls)
Monk handwraps wis/dex/con (amazeballs for all skull levels up till about level 15, epls and hpls make a big difference)
Sorc (swap between fire/earth/air depending on content) DC (optimally skull 4-6; requires positioning and game knowledge, as well as, stacks of pls)
Wiz DC charmer (optimal for skull 4-10, need stacks of pls and quality gear, positioning and game knowledge, most importantly this one is only optimal if you have a high single target dps duo partner)
repeater xbow variants (these will be slightly weaker now that arcane archer is fixed, but its still one of the stronger builds out there -> modifications will probably be made 6 fighter/6 arti looking good theory wise)
Dex based twf ranger (after the fix will probably see a return to the limelight -> much like the monk, has a ton of avoidance)
I'm sure I'm missing something.

*disclaimer: not all of these are more effective than warlock at each and every skull level, barbarian is quite frankly horrible at skull 8-10 (imo). Some of these (arti) are better at every skull and character level (1-20) than a traditional ES warlock build.

Note that most if not all of these require things that the traditional ES warlock doesn't -> game knowledge, positioning ability, twitch skills, stacks of pls, and/or more frequent respeccing during level ups to tune toon to content.

could you post a video of any of those builds you mention doing a 4 skulls ?
any quest will do

Mr_Helmet
06-21-2017, 04:16 PM
Nerf monks and wolves next. Keep up the good work and you may actually have a game worth playing again.

Selvera
06-21-2017, 04:16 PM
WHY NOT KEEP warlock AS IT IS , AND ADD MORE POWER TO ALL OTHER CLASSES? you will surely have a bigger playerbase and getting more subs that way!


I have not played a warlock; I have about 200,000 rxp on one of my characters.

My current fighter/monk (melee) can solo R1 quickly and effectively, and has been able to since level 4 (didn't try before that). I can kill champions with ease; I can kill reapers before they can even attack me most of the time. I also have an archer; I recently de-geared her, but before I did that she could instagib nearly anything and everything by hitting manyshot (on reaper levels higher then 1); and doesn't do too poorly for herself even without manyshot.

Therefore warlocks are not the only class that can complete quests on reaper difficulty and earn reaper XP.

Reaper mode is supposed to be the challenge difficulty for characters with good gear, good builds, pastlives and played well. Any damage-dealing build can solo this difficulty if they have at least 2 of these things; so arguing that reaper is too hard for non-warlocks is fundamentally flawed. It is also a grouping difficulty.

So if reaper is NOT too hard for non-warlocks; but is too easy for warlocks... then perhaps these nerfs have precedent.

If your argument is that only warlocks can grind out a massive amount of reaper XP quickly; and that nerfing them makes this grind too long; then perhaps they should reduce the grind? They have stated that those numbers might have been too high; and by now they probably have some data suggesting that yes; those numbers are too high. If people are farming rxp at 30 xp/min on warlocks right now and can only farm it at 20 xp/min on a different build; then perhaps the XP requirements should be reduced 33%. This seems like a much better option that doesn't trivialize content even more then it already is.

Also; try playing a DC caster someday. It might be a trickier build to learn; but I learned a lot on my first caster life, and the ability to solo some quests on R7 without abusing quest mechanics or safe spots is something I've not managed on other classes yet. I can only imagine what I could do if I had pastlives to back it up...

Benihim
06-21-2017, 04:17 PM
I disagree. Warlock may be the easiest option, but not the only option.

Also, Reaper is about challenge, not giving you an easy XP grind. Buffing all the other classes to make reaper easier for you to grind does not support the goals of reaper.

Reaper is not easy , and absolutely not easy if you run reaper with a warlock. i have seen many warlock fail even on 2 skulls. Its a big misunderstanding to say that " if you play Warlock , you can get an easy XP grind" not at all dude.

You still need game knowledge and skills to make Warlock works on 3 skulls and above. But its true , warlock makes the grind less time consuming, but it not automated to auto-complete.

Benihim
06-21-2017, 04:21 PM
I have not played a warlock; I have about 200,000 rxp on one of my characters.

My current fighter/monk (melee) can solo R1 quickly and effectively, and has been able to since level 4 (didn't try before that). I can kill champions with ease; I can kill reapers before they can even attack me most of the time. I also have an archer; I recently de-geared her, but before I did that she could instagib nearly anything and everything by hitting manyshot (on reaper levels higher then 1); and doesn't do too poorly for herself even without manyshot.

Therefore warlocks are not the only class that can complete quests on reaper difficulty and earn reaper XP.

Reaper mode is supposed to be the challenge difficulty for characters with good gear, good builds, pastlives and played well. Any damage-dealing build can solo this difficulty if they have at least 2 of these things; so arguing that reaper is too hard for non-warlocks is fundamentally flawed. It is also a grouping difficulty.

So if reaper is NOT too hard for non-warlocks; but is too easy for warlocks... then perhaps these nerfs have precedent.

If your argument is that only warlocks can grind out a massive amount of reaper XP quickly; and that nerfing them makes this grind too long; then perhaps they should reduce the grind? They have stated that those numbers might have been too high; and by now they probably have some data suggesting that yes; those numbers are too high. If people are farming rxp at 30 xp/min on warlocks right now and can only farm it at 20 xp/min on a different build; then perhaps the XP requirements should be reduced 33%. This seems like a much better option that doesn't trivialize content even more then it already is.

Also; try playing a DC caster someday. It might be a trickier build to learn; but I learned a lot on my first caster life, and the ability to solo some quests on R7 without abusing quest mechanics or safe spots is something I've not managed on other classes yet. I can only imagine what I could do if I had pastlives to back it up...

WELL grats with your 200k rxp without using warlock!

can you post a video or a screenshot of you doing a 7 skulls ?

Btw 200k RXP is but a drop in the ocean..

Benihim
06-21-2017, 04:27 PM
And THIS is why people gravitate toward warlocks.

oh no , you got it all wrong dude!

People gravitate toward warlock is because they have the exact knowledge of the game and its state right now!

Morroiel
06-21-2017, 04:28 PM
could you post a video of any of those builds you mention doing a 4 skulls ?
any quest will do

Don't need to, just go the achievements forum: rys and farwil have been doing r10s on wiz/sorc duo since reaper was released. There have been a number of r10 solos using dc casters (of all kinds) and 1 or 2 using other builds.

Benihim
06-21-2017, 04:30 PM
Don't need to, just go the achievements forum: rys and farwil have been doing r10s on wiz/sorc duo since reaper was released. There have been a number of r10 solos using dc casters (of all kinds) and 1 or 2 using other builds.

i havent seen them , could you just tell how long time did they take to complete?

like how fast are the RXP/ min rate ?

Thanks for any info

Morroiel
06-21-2017, 04:37 PM
i havent seen them , could you just tell how long time did they take to complete?

like how fast are the RXP/ min rate ?

Thanks for any info

Keeping in mind that r10 has known issues (both among devs and players) with the xp/min reward being drastically inefficient. It doesn't matter what build you use, if you are doing r10 for xp/min, you are doing it wrong. This is even further magnified if you solo/duo.

Unfortunately, I don't have a side by side comparison of me playing a warlock and me playing a monk (or sorc or arti) at level in r4 - mostly because I don't record game footage. Anecdotally, I can run quests solo on a monk from levels 1 till about 12/13 on r4 faster than I can on a warlock. This is even further true when looking at party compositions: I play in a static group, so if one of us plays a monk, another will play a sorc, while the other plays an arti etc.

And yes there are some quests out there where a warlock will beat the rxp/min rate that a monk will put out - quests are variable and different builds sometimes shine in different circumstances.

Benihim
06-21-2017, 04:40 PM
Keeping in mind that r10 has known issues (both among devs and players) with the xp/min reward being drastically inefficient. It doesn't matter what build you use, if you are doing r10 for xp/min, you are doing it wrong. This is even further magnified if you solo/duo.

Unfortunately, I don't have a side by side comparison of me playing a warlock and me playing a monk (or sorc or arti) at level in r4 - mostly because I don't record game footage. Anecdotally, I can run quests solo on a monk from levels 1 till about 12/13 on r4 faster than I can on a warlock. This is even further true when looking at party compositions: I play in a static group, so if one of us plays a monk, another will play a sorc, while the other plays an arti etc.

And yes there are some quests out there where a warlock will beat the rxp/min rate that a monk will put out - quests are variable and different builds sometimes shine in different circumstances.

thank you for sharing your tactic for grinding rxp!

Enjoy your monk

btw , not everyone have the luxury of a static group...

Selvera
06-21-2017, 04:50 PM
WELL grats with your 200k rxp without using warlock!

can you post a video or a screenshot of you doing a 7 skulls ?

Btw 200k RXP is but a drop in the ocean..

The 7 skulls was on a (effectively first life) Evo/Enchant Wizard that I TR'd out of. Specifically Threnal quests (which are short and not that hard). Slave-lords gear is good enough that I could charm the giants on 7 skulls some of the time (would be better with pastlives); and magic-missile SLAs can kill giants if charm should fail. Especially if I hold them first.

For the majority of content I was doing 2-3 skulls (because it's easier/faster and I value heroic XP quite a bit right now); with a group SP is less of an issue (you can charm or hold and your party cleans them up for you) so doing 4-5 skulls is very manageable.

And yeah, 200k rxp is just a drop in the ocean when you consider the millions that devs seem to see as resonable; but I don't have a completionist, I split my time between characters, I spend some time farming gear or just running raids w/friends for fun and I have somewhat limited playing time. It is a significant chunk of rxp large enough to prove that you can earn rxp without warlock.

Arctigis
06-21-2017, 04:54 PM
I put together a quick sheet so I could play around with all the numbers and see where my personal configuration would end up:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1p0xtuVFfrSac3y-D569F2ac3HS5Y1cU6GotT-6Bwse0

Now, the thing I was forgetting when I first started putting this together (and I think what many people might also be forgetting) was that you have to look at Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast individually because they are separate attacks with differing base/starting damage. Spirit Blast is "losing" 6d6 damage with the proposed changes, yes, but it's not 6d6 from ALL Eldritch attacks and it's not a 66% reduction of the overall damage for Spirit Blast.

If I did all my maths (as in more than one math XD) correctly...looks like my Warlock configuration would only lose about 9% damage with Eldritch Burst and 18% damage with Spirit Blast. Even if you discount pact damage entirely, that still only brings Eldritch Burst to a 13% reduction and Spirit Blast to a 24% reduction.

IMO, that's about where it should've been when I think about how my previous full-Warlock build played. I think these changes will also reduce the damage potential you'll get when multi-classing with ES, which I think is also needed. Currently, adding 6 warlock to virtually any class configuration can give you an (IMO) overly strong burst/blast. Now, if you don't pick up a lot of the enhancements to boost Eldritch/Pact dice you'll obviously have a greater % loss than others because you're relying more heavily on the base damage from the burst/blast.

I think changing the dice configuration is a better move over adjusting the SpellPower scaling.

TL;DR
Eldritch Burst reduced 9% (incl. pact damage) or 13% (ignoring pact damage) for my build.
Spirit Blast reduced 18% (incl. pact damage) or 24% (ignoring pact damage) for my build.
Every build is different, so your % results may vary.

Just my 2 plat. :)

I'm on a phone so maybe I missed it. I think you need to factor in spellpower too.
The difference will also be multiplied by spellpower e.g if you're doing 20 less damage but have 400 spellpower you're doing 100 less damage.

dragons1ayer74
06-21-2017, 04:58 PM
I disagree. Warlock may be the easiest option, but not the only option.

Also, Reaper is about challenge, not giving you an easy XP grind. Buffing all the other classes to make reaper easier for you to grind does not support the goals of reaper.

lol are you serious? Really R1 is all about reducing XP grind if reaper was not about reducing XP grind reaper would have only got reaper XP and 0 regular XP. If that would have happened only a few players would play reaper at all it needed to be better xp to entice players to run it.

Eryhn
06-21-2017, 04:58 PM
http://68.media.tumblr.com/de70b048388fcb6fd638f1baef5abfd2/tumblr_inline_naffvn6uDK1ri2sj7.gif

Morroiel
06-21-2017, 04:59 PM
I'm on a phone so maybe I missed it. I think you need to factor in spellpower too.
The difference will also be multiplied by spellpower e.g if you're doing 20 less damage but have 400 spellpower you're doing 100 less damage.

If you are evaluating % differences, you can ignore spell power as long as there is parity between the before|after.

Benihim
06-21-2017, 05:01 PM
The 7 skulls was on a (effectively first life) Evo/Enchant Wizard that I TR'd out of. Specifically Threnal quests (which are short and not that hard). Slave-lords gear is good enough that I could charm the giants on 7 skulls some of the time (would be better with pastlives); and magic-missile SLAs can kill giants if charm should fail. Especially if I hold them first.

For the majority of content I was doing 2-3 skulls (because it's easier/faster and I value heroic XP quite a bit right now); with a group SP is less of an issue (you can charm or hold and your party cleans them up for you) so doing 4-5 skulls is very manageable.

And yeah, 200k rxp is just a drop in the ocean when you consider the millions that devs seem to see as resonable; but I don't have a completionist, I split my time between characters, I spend some time farming gear or just running raids w/friends for fun and I have somewhat limited playing time. It is a significant chunk of rxp large enough to prove that you can earn rxp without warlock.

good for you buddy good for you!

as i said on few posts above ; i dont want to argue in details about warlock and rxp or non-warlock and rxp to any non-dev. i ll admit . its great and all talking with you fellow ddo players, but i think i am done posting for now. If you have gotten my point by now, then its great, if you haven't, then its fine also. ENjoy your game and your builds, i have said my opinions . No need to repeat myself over and over.

I am curious though , what will u36 bring to DDO

Good game!

Thar
06-21-2017, 05:02 PM
In the vast majority of scenarios, even after the changes, Eldritch Burst does significantly more damage than Caustic Shot. This is primarily due to all damage portions of Eldritch Burst scaling with Spell Power (unlike Caustic Shot), and Eldritch Burst benefiting from Metamagics (unlike Caustic Shot). If you aren't using Metamagics at all, I can somewhat see your point... But Warlocks by and large do, and it was definitely a factor in the very long process we went through before making these Warlock changes.

I thought warlocks don't gain increases to blast for metamagics? has that changed?

Steelstar
06-21-2017, 05:03 PM
I thought warlocks don't gain increases to blast for metamagics? has that changed?

The Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast SLAs in Enlightened Spirit are able to make use of Metamagics.

Gratch
06-21-2017, 05:10 PM
Diamond Soul is not currently planned to stack with Racial nor Gear sources of Spell Resistance, although it's something we can consider.

Is there a reason Diamond Soul can't be treated as that same type as (so no stacking with) racial SR? So Monk, Drow and Gnome get their SR benefits added to items... though Drow Monks and Gnome Monks and ESPECIALLY HalfDrow HalfGnome Monks won't break any expected scaling? Seems kind of weird to touch the SR system and not hit all the bases.

Max Monk SR at max is 10 + monk level: 30
Max Drow Racial SR is 10 + heroic? character level: 30 + 6 enh boost. (or does it include epic levels too?)

Also, where does spell resistance the spell sit in all of this? Does it also stack with racial like an item replacement or completely non-stacking with anything as it currently sits - aka worthless if you have an item or a race or a [CHANGE APPROVED] Diamond Soul? Though I guess soon those items will be worth less (a third less to be exact).


I'm also unsubbing from this game over these changes or moreso lack of changes. I wasn't subscribed anyways. Moreso I was hoping for an added FVS tree in U36 and I'm making my sadness known. So while I'm not currently under DDO subscription - I'm totally unsubscribing from reading DDO's Facebook page - which I was not at any time reading previously. Take that!

Arktanis
06-21-2017, 05:20 PM
It's almost as if you guys at SSG are intentionally trying to drive players away from your game. I guess having only a couple hundred people left playing on each server is just too many.

Well, I hope all the whiners and complainers really enjoy playing solo.

You realize that anyone who has been around for 10 years played most of that WITHOUT warlocks? There are so many other builds that the people who just play warlock, experienced or not, are just on the easy train. I am happy they are nerfing, I was in a Tempest Spine party last night with 8 warlocks out of the 12 party members.

J1NG
06-21-2017, 05:29 PM
Is there a reason Diamond Soul can't be treated as that same type as (so no stacking with) racial SR? So Monk, Drow and Gnome get their SR benefits added to items... though Drow Monks and Drow Gnomes won't break any expected scaling? Seems kind of weird to touch the SR system and not hit all the bases.

This is the thoughts of many a person who's familiar with SR and it's heavy shortcomings. So the quote from Cordovan seems weird. Especially since according to the Feed, the reason Monks don't have the same SR boost is because they can't get it working. ie. There's wrong information being spread around the place. The question is: Which is right? And which is wrong?


Max Monk SR at max is 10 + monk level: 30
Max Drow Racial SR is 10 + heroic? character level: 30 + 6 enh boost. (or does it include epic levels too?)

Drow/Gnome have total character levels right now. Which includes Epic. Meaning Drow will get the most, at 46 before items and Twists/Destiny. Then Gnome at 40. Barbarians that design for it (But this doesn't appear to stack; yet). Finally in theory "Monks" (Which don't stack for some inexplicable reason).

But as we can see, it's a clear 50% or more greater than what Monks can obtain. And that is at cap (Level 20). At level 30, Monks will need items to even get near that SR level, and that's just ... I don't even know what to describe that as, other than it's laughable that it's only going to be "considered". The response should have been:

"We recognise that the Monk also falls into this change, but our focus is the change on the Gnome and Drow for now in time for U36. We will update the Monk Diamond Soul ability hopefully at a later update/patch."

But no. We got a "Why would Monk SR even need to be touched?" (Paraphrasing, but that's the feeling we get from the response).


Also, where does spell resistance the spell sit in all of this? Does it also stack with racial like an item replacement or completely non-stacking with anything as it currently sits - aka worthless if you have an item? Though I guess soon those items will be worth less (a third less to be exact).

From what I understand, the Racial will stack with items. So Enchantment SR (Item), Insightful SR, and Quality SR. As well as with Twists, Destiny and Enhancements.

:: edit ::

The spell is classed as Enchantment/Enhancement, so will be the same as on items effects. Shouldn't stack, although considering how low it grants SR, who knows?

J1NG

Steve_Howe
06-21-2017, 05:51 PM
I was in a Tempest Spine party last night with 8 warlocks out of the 12 party members.

And?

Retired_Old_Gamer
06-21-2017, 05:55 PM
I posted this in another thread........


What if there was a game system that made our maxed out characters digress, Like the old guild decay system?

For the power gamers, they would be in a constant state of flux. And for the new & casual, it wouldn't affect them till they started playing that system.

It would most certainly change your play-style. And while we struggle with that system the devs could be designing new content and systems that would challenge us even more.

Just a thought. :cool:

Arch-Necromancer
06-21-2017, 06:03 PM
Yeah, I agree - my post was meant to be tongue in cheek ;)

It should definitely be possible to get a class and a racial past life in the same run IMO (even if
it costs two hearts to do it). And the first racial life is a joke - an obvious speed bump if there
ever was one.

Well then, instead of whining against warlock nerf whiners, you could join us in this new whine about making racial and heroic TR available at the same time.

We'll need to amass a considerable amount of whiners for the devs to consider that... :D

Arktanis
06-21-2017, 06:10 PM
And?

There are 13 other classes. Plus it was basically pointless to try and do any playstyle as it was just speed farm central.

PermaBanned
06-21-2017, 07:39 PM
Diamond Soul is not currently planned to stack with Racial nor Gear sources of Spell Resistance, although it's something we can consider.So in light of this, would it be fair to take:
Drow and Deep Gnome's Spell Resistance now stacks with all other sources of Spell Resistance.and instead say:
Drow and Deep Gnome's Spell Resistance now stacks with not-quite-all other sources of Spell Resistance.fify?

I don't mind admitting I'm a bit confused here now. After redeading & reconsidering both my question and the OP, I had edited my question because Diamond Soul is (at least according to the wiki) an Enhancement bonus just like everything else; so surely Racial will now be stacking with Monk - right?

If however that's not the {intended} case, could y'all officially clarify if:
• Racial actually will stack with DSoul intentionally because DSoul is an Enhancement bonus?
-or-
• Racial actually will stack with DSoul unintentionally because DSoul is an Enhancement bonus?
-or-
• The Wiki is wrong and DSoul is not an Enhancement bonus - if so, please include what type of (broken or non-functional or non-stacking) bonus DSoul actually is?
-and hopefully-
• Why not type DSoul as a stacking "Monk Bonus" while you're already fiddling with Spell Resistance, and let Lama demonstrate if that's a good or "too good" of an idea?



What is Standing Stone Game Dev's reasons for NOT applying this to the Monk ability as well?

I'd love to hear the reasons for not including it.

J1NG
Yes please, seconded.

I mean, I tried to bring up Diamond Soul when all y'all were looking at Monks, got no responses. So I figure now that you're looking at Spell Resistance is likely that last chance for Diamond Soul, 'cause when else - EVER - is Monk sourced Spell Resistance likely to a relevant-to-the-topic thing? So let's please NOT put this one off?

karatemack
06-21-2017, 08:03 PM
Upon further reflection, I actually don't have a problem with the Burst/Blast changes.

It would be nice to see Diamond Soul as well as the Cleric spell resistance spell stack with other sources (martial bonus and divine bonus?) even if the amounts of SR provided by those abilities was lowered to account for the stacking. It would also be nice if the Cleric stat boosting spells stacked as divine bonuses but were reduced from a +4 bonus to a +2 or +1 bonus instead.

cdbd3rd
06-21-2017, 08:12 PM
The change to Eldritch Blast die progression and epic feats seems like a good solution to shift the power progression from heroics to epics.
...

Which is great for those people who like to play in epics.

*shrug*

Jetrule
06-21-2017, 08:32 PM
On the Racial Sr and other types being stackable. I approve. I do wonder why monk is left out in the cold though. For a monk sr would only be very useful against level drainers and other beholder type spam. They typically have very good saves. Monk and drow/deep gnome will need to put on some SR gear to have a effective sr, unless the concern is a drow or dg monk? wont those currently stack as proposed anyway? I know you can make a dg pure barb and switch to occult slayer capstone to get a untouchable sr right now since I have done that.

Cableman
06-21-2017, 09:23 PM
Hello!

Warlocks
With U36, the following changes are being made to Warlocks:


Warlocks now receive Eldritch Blast base dice feats at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (for a total of 6d6 at level 20) instead of their previous progression. Characters will be automatically adjusted to match this new progression.
The Epic Eldritch Blast feat now grants 3d6 to Eldritch Blast.
The Epic Arcane Eldritch Blast Destiny feat now grants 4d6 to Eldritch Blast.
In Enlightened Spirit, Eldritch Burst's additional Light damage is now 1d6.
In Enlightened Spirit, Spirit Blast's additional Light damage is now 4d6.
In Enlightened Spirit, Spiritual Retribution's Light damage on all Eldritch Blasts and Weapon Attacks is now 1d4/2d4/3d4.


Internal and live data gathering has led to the conclusion that Warlock DPS is unquestionably too high in Heroic. It isn't simply a matter of their damage output relative to other classes (which is also too high), it's a matter of their power relative to content and other factors involved in overall game balance. Tuning other classes up to their level isn't an option; Warlock damage in Heroic needs to come down.

The above change alters the levels at which Warlocks add 1d6 to their base Eldritch Blast. On Live currently, when they reach level 20 they have 9d6; this change alters that to 6d6. To balance that against Epics, the two available Eldritch Blast feats have been increased to 3d6 and 4d6 (a net gain of +3d6, the same value that was removed from Heroics). As a result, by the time a Warlock reaches level 26, they can have exactly as many dice as they can get now.

The Enlightened Spirit changes bring the extra damage granted by these abilities closer in line with abilities in other classes. Having playtested with the changes, these abilities remain very potent.


But it is not the same amount that was removed in heroics because there is no way to regain the 2d6 lost from Eldritch Burst and 6d6 lost from Spirit Blast in epics. 8d6 meta'd with spellpower is a significant loss of dps in epics for an already average dps build. I don't mind the loss in heroics but it needs to be backloaded into epics somehow and not through feats that pigeon hole every warlock into the same build just to regain the lost damage dice.

Seikojin
06-21-2017, 09:32 PM
If Warlock damage in the upper Epics ends up being too low, we can make further adjustments. Frankly, that outcome doesn't seem very likely.

Yeah, I am glad Warlock is being brought in line with proper scaling and I too don't see much of a negative impact for epics. Even with it bring chopped by a 3rd.

Gargoyle69
06-21-2017, 09:44 PM
Diamond Soul is not currently planned to stack with Racial nor Gear sources of Spell Resistance, although it's something we can consider.

Yes, can we please request that you consider it?

Or, more precisely, while you are looking at, and rebalancing, spell resistance from gear and racials, can you please also consider where you would like diamond soul to fit in with that, and communicate your design rationale to us please?

I can see a few options as to how it might work mechanically, but without knowing the intent, it's hard to know which is more appropriate, but here goes :

Case #1) Diamond Soul is intended to be a minor defensive benefit to all monks, along the lines of a slight boost or a QoL thing but Monks are not intended to be able to achieve meaningful SR without additional investment in either gear, race or build resources. Drow and dg monks are intended to be well defended by this ability, as are monks of other races that invest in appropriate gear. Investing in all available types of SR such as race, class, gear & ED's should provide nearly no fail levels of SR in even challenging content.

In which case, make DS an enhancement bonus but ensure it is slightly ahead of the curve of items of a similar level. That way it will stack with all other types so that monks can still equip insightful or other types of SR gear, and /or be drow or dg, but it saves them 1 gear slot and gives them a slight edge over someone using an enhancement SR item.

Case #2) Diamond Soul is meant to be a solid defense available to monks, similar to that of appropriate races, but we don't want drow / dg monks better at it than non-monks of those races or monks of other races, as that'll make it too hard to balance SR from other sources to make SR generally useful for everyone else without making those drow /dg Monks too OP.

In this case, make DS the same type as the racial bonus and make it stack with everything else. People who want to build for Max SR then have a choice as to either dedicate their race or class choice to it, and then build on it from there, but aren't required to dedicate both to it.

Case #3) Diamond Soul in its original intention was meant to be a potent distinctive ability, as much a cornerstone of the monks defence as evasion and we would like to see it returned to that. While other races & classes should also be able to get functional SR values with investment, monks should be able to do it innately without being required to be of any particular race or ED, or needing gear.

In this case, keep monk SR as whatever type it is now (ie not stacking with anything) but significantly increase its values numerically so it is at least approximately what can be achieved with race and/or gear and functional in challenging content.

Or, maybe something else entirely - over to you ;)

Zzevel
06-21-2017, 10:20 PM
Don't forget to factor in... start by posting an OVER NERF so you can scale it back a little after shtuff blows up on the forum and then no body cares about a LITTLE NERF syndrome...

Astoroth
06-22-2017, 01:03 AM
If Warlock damage in the upper Epics ends up being too low, we can make further adjustments. Frankly, that outcome doesn't seem very likely.

Anyone even casually looking at it can see there will a drop of damage in the low 20's, before you can take the feats to off set the damage reduction at lower levels. Roll up a 20 warlock and run some epic elites or low reapers.

So you'll make further adjustments later, because the obvious is too obscure for you? So when will this be, when warlock gets a class pass in three or four years? Seriously you let wail sit broken for over a year, and wouldn't even acknowledge it was broken. Do you seriously even believe your own statement, other than the part where adjustments are frankly unlikely. Your class balancing has gone on for literally years, as a company you have no credibility at being able to balance or adjust anything in a timely or reasonable manner.

Noircere
06-22-2017, 01:34 AM
Monsters with the “see stealthed” property will now display an angry red eye icon to anyone observing them in stealth.


Can we also get an indicator for True Sight/See Invisible, when the player is invisible?

While we're at it, can we get a debuff graphic for Dark Delirium (Fey Warlock lv6 special), even if it's just a copy of the Hypnotism graphic? It's VERY hard to use in Reaper groups when no one else can be sure what's safe to ignore for a bit.

Noircere
06-22-2017, 01:44 AM
Upon further reflection, I actually don't have a problem with the Burst/Blast changes.

It would be nice to see Diamond Soul as well as the Cleric spell resistance spell stack with other sources (martial bonus and divine bonus?) even if the amounts of SR provided by those abilities was lowered to account for the stacking. It would also be nice if the Cleric stat boosting spells stacked as divine bonuses but were reduced from a +4 bonus to a +2 or +1 bonus instead.

Or were enhancement, but scale with caster level to be comparable to gear of that level?

Ovrad
06-22-2017, 02:15 AM
Right now on live, spell resistance can be relevant for every build; if you want to build for it and have it be meaningful, you can. The only problem is that races and classes who are supposed to be better at it are currently no better than anyone else. But to be clear: EVERYONE can build for useful spell resistance if they choose to.

I'm sorry... we must not be playing the same game. Spell resistance on live doesn't seem to ever work unless you're like 10 levels over the quest you are running. Build for spell resistance? That's the first time I've heard about that...
What I meant by being useful to everyone, was everyone can roll a SR race and put on an item, and MAYBE it will be high enough.

Niminae
06-22-2017, 02:34 AM
Racial Spell Resistance fully stacks with everything. Other races can go pound sand.


Not a fan. Leave items as-is, and type racial spell resistance as Insightful. It frees up a gear slot (much like divine might) and it stays ahead of insightful items assuming you get racial SR from epic levels:

ML10: +9 Insightful Spell Resistance from crafted item, +10 racial Spell Resistance
ML12: +10 crafted, +11 racial
ML13: +11 crafted, +13 racial
ML15: +12 crafted, +15 racial
ML17: +13 crafted, +17 racial
ML18: +14 crafted, +18 racial
ML19: +15 crafted, +19 racial
ML21: +16 crafted, +21 racial
ML22: +17 crafted, +22 racial
ML24: +18 crafted, +24 racial
ML25: +19 crafted, +25 racial
ML27: +20 crafted, +27 racial
ML28: +21 crafted, +28 racial
ML30: +22 crafted, +30 racial
PL31: +23 crafted, +30 racial
PL33: +24 crafted, +30 racial
PL34: +25 crafted, +30 racial

This seems so obvious and so perfect

This is a beautiful and elegant suggestion. It should be implemented instead of nerfing all SR items and setting all races save two back in their SR values achievable.


We're working on letting Wands and Scrolls work through this without turning the toggles off.

Awesome! Now I can relive my earliest days playing DDO, where I would occasionally beat entire dungeons to death with a scroll in my hand because I forgot that casting a spell from a scroll equipped it.