PDA

View Full Version : Make us able to get rif of undead traits



Ellihor
03-15-2017, 06:50 AM
Wizard pass is not coming soon, if it's ever coming. I don't want to play a warlock, I just like being a wizard, for the flavor. But can you get a way for us to heal with positive energy while in form? That's the major point preventing me from playing the class I prefer.

I was thinking this would be easy to implement: the shroud form and undead traits are different buff, and they have different icons. You could easly implement and enhancement in the PM tree that when you activate, it makes you immune to undead traits, while still being able to get the specific shroud form you are using. This would mean you can be healed by positive, but is damage by negative, loose all the fortification and immunities from undead traits.

While you are at it, for god's sake, make something about those capstones. Currently they're not worth loosing evasion on a build that can easly get very high reflexes. There are caster capstones giving +4 to casting stat, on top of other very cool unique abilities.

The only other problem I find pulling me out of wizard is that magister destiny suck. You did an update for EA, making it veeery atractive to play as a DC build, it is tempting to use even on wizard INT based... but the result is that it's just more a reason to be a warlock instead of a wizard.

Enoach
03-15-2017, 08:28 AM
Is there a reason why the Arch Magi Tree is not your preferred Tree? To me it seems you could get the Positive Energy Healing by going AM instead of PM. In fact outside of the Necromancy school, AM provides just about the same DCs for any other primary school.

SirValentine
03-15-2017, 10:07 AM
You can just play a Palemaster, but not be in Undead form. Problem solved!

Or you have have teammates who will help heal you while you are in form. There's quite a few classes that can take spells that will heal you, and scrolls are available, too, for everyone else. Even some clickies. And temp HP applies regardless of form. Problem solved.

I don't see any special issue here that requires having the best of both worlds. There are trade-offs, and there should be. It's not hopeless either way.

ValariusK
03-15-2017, 12:28 PM
You can just play a Palemaster, but not be in Undead form. Problem solved!

Or you have have teammates who will help heal you while you are in form. There's quite a few classes that can take spells that will heal you, and scrolls are available, too, for everyone else. Even some clickies. And temp HP applies regardless of form. Problem solved.

I don't see any special issue here that requires having the best of both worlds. There are trade-offs, and there should be. It's not hopeless either way.


The problems are these:

The archmage is kind of an inferior line. The best pure wizard builds in archmage feel lacking. Adding back the +2 intel in arcane supremacy that used to be there would go quite a way towards addressing the deltas. Archmage SHOULD be a better offensive line than Palemaster because palemaster has SO much more defense. Right now IMO archmage, non palemaster is mostly a flavor build.
Reaper:
It is a PITA to heal a pale master when their self-heal is heavily debuffed. Yes you can do it as a cleric, but it is annoying. Ranges are shorter, LOS is required and its just not compatible with the hyperfocus that's often required when lots of people are taking damage.b Been there, done that. Annoying the cleric population more than reaper already does is a recipe for not enough clerics (to wit, I tr'd out of my morning lord cleric as soon as I hit 30 for iconic tr). Yes you can group with other pale masters, but in my experience this doesn't happen much outside static or guild groups. You also can't incidentally heal a pale master with consecrated ground or the on-kill divine crusader thing, AM strike, healing ki, or any other normal collateral healing.
Warforged/bladeforged have a lot of the same issues in reaper but in an attenuated form.

Enoach
03-15-2017, 01:54 PM
The problems are these:

The archmage is kind of an inferior line. The best pure wizard builds in archmage feel lacking. Adding back the +2 intel in arcane supremacy that used to be there would go quite a way towards addressing the deltas. Archmage SHOULD be a better offensive line than Palemaster because palemaster has SO much more defense. Right now IMO archmage, non palemaster is mostly a flavor build.
Reaper:
It is a PITA to heal a pale master when their self-heal is heavily debuffed. Yes you can do it as a cleric, but it is annoying. Ranges are shorter, LOS is required and its just not compatible with the hyperfocus that's often required when lots of people are taking damage.b Been there, done that. Annoying the cleric population more than reaper already does is a recipe for not enough clerics (to wit, I tr'd out of my morning lord cleric as soon as I hit 30 for iconic tr). Yes you can group with other pale masters, but in my experience this doesn't happen much outside static or guild groups. You also can't incidentally heal a pale master with consecrated ground or the on-kill divine crusader thing, AM strike, healing ki, or any other normal collateral healing.
Warforged/bladeforged have a lot of the same issues in reaper but in an attenuated form.

As one that has played a cleric since '06 my opinion on healing a Pale Master is only that Inflict/Harm spells don't target the same as Cure/Heal spells and also don't have the same range. How this effects the Cleric is that when a player jumps around to behind the Cleric the cure/heal has no issue, but the inflict/harm has the line of site issue.

I'm actually at odds for which would be the better solution...
Change Inflict/Harm to work like Cure/Heal or vice versa

But in the meantime the small adjustment I have to make is not a PITA issue, it is just a slight inconvenience that requires a little more thought and coordination. Since I also play a PM I understand this limitation and also work to minimize causing issues for the Divine player that has taken the Inflict/Harm spell to help me out when things get rough.

As for AM being inferior to PM, currently it comes down to about a single DC difference except when discussing Necromancy. I've met many a fleshy AM that can hold their own in the highest content because they "didn't want to be undead". They figured out what works for them.

Steve_Howe
03-15-2017, 03:10 PM
Pale Masters in Undead Form of some sort have undead traits. That's it...end of story.

Don't want to play an undead wizard with undead traits? Be an Archmage or Eldritch Knight.

It's pretty simple, really.

bsquishwizzy
03-15-2017, 04:09 PM
Wizard pass is not coming soon, if it's ever coming. I don't want to play a warlock, I just like being a wizard, for the flavor. But can you get a way for us to heal with positive energy while in form? That's the major point preventing me from playing the class I prefer.

I was thinking this would be easy to implement: the shroud form and undead traits are different buff, and they have different icons. You could easly implement and enhancement in the PM tree that when you activate, it makes you immune to undead traits, while still being able to get the specific shroud form you are using. This would mean you can be healed by positive, but is damage by negative, loose all the fortification and immunities from undead traits.

While you are at it, for god's sake, make something about those capstones. Currently they're not worth loosing evasion on a build that can easly get very high reflexes. There are caster capstones giving +4 to casting stat, on top of other very cool unique abilities.

The only other problem I find pulling me out of wizard is that magister destiny suck. You did an update for EA, making it veeery atractive to play as a DC build, it is tempting to use even on wizard INT based... but the result is that it's just more a reason to be a warlock instead of a wizard.

Invest in UMD. Go PM, turn off shrouds, and make an investment in the AM tree with a focus on necromancy.

Yeah, you lose Lich form. But, if you ignore enhancements that relate to shrouds, and invest those points in AM and/or INT boosts in Harper / AM / Racial trees.

I'm not big into DDO maths, but I suspect it would be close to pure PM with Lich form.

Ellihor
03-16-2017, 12:08 PM
Is there a reason why the Arch Magi Tree is not your preferred Tree? To me it seems you could get the Positive Energy Healing by going AM instead of PM. In fact outside of the Necromancy school, AM provides just about the same DCs for any other primary school.

But you are not considering that on a Pale Master, you take all the Archmage tree up to tier 4. That means by going Archamge as your main tree, and not using undead, you are basically loosing 4 points of INT and 2 points of necro, while you get 1 point of necro and 1 point of another school (enchantment usually).

It's 3 necro, 1 ench and 2 for all other schools. Quite a lot.


You can just play a Palemaster, but not be in Undead form. Problem solved!

If I am going to have the same DC of a warlock or sorc, then there is no reason to be a wizard, having less spell points and DPS (sorc) or loosing the will based instakills (wlk), and playing on EA.


Or you have have teammates who will help heal you while you are in form. There's quite a few classes that can take spells that will heal you, and scrolls are available, too, for everyone else. Even some clickies. And temp HP applies regardless of form. Problem solved.

Ok, you're not serious.

Ellihor
03-16-2017, 12:15 PM
Invest in UMD. Go PM, turn off shrouds, and make an investment in the AM tree with a focus on necromancy.

Yeah, you lose Lich form. But, if you ignore enhancements that relate to shrouds, and invest those points in AM and/or INT boosts in Harper / AM / Racial trees.

I'm not big into DDO maths, but I suspect it would be close to pure PM with Lich form.

Or... suggest DEVs to adress the issue and be a warlock or a sorcerer if they don't. I see a bunch of people here as usual always saying how everything is fine, I don't understand why, maybe they think they'll get something from SSG or that others will see them as good avisors or wathever.

This issue, for those that don't understand, is in close relation to the fact that EA is a superior destiny to any of the arcane destinies.

You can't get INT from the EA tree. If you don't have more DC on a wazard than on a sorcerer or warlock, there is no point in being a wizard, just be a sorcerer or warlock, 2 classes that have great advantages on their own over wizard. The balance used to come from the PM tree, that was giving a lot of DC and defenses to wizard, but with reaper you no longer can be effective while in udead form, and the balance is borken.

My suggestion is really easy to implement, I don't see any reason why it should not be put in place.

Ellihor
03-17-2017, 06:05 AM
Must do at least of of these to make wizard worth it, otherwise you're always better of as a warlock of sorc:

- Give INT option as a stat to Exalted Angel
- Give us an option to turn of undead traits but maintain form
- Buff magister and draconic to cope with EA
- Buff the wizard trees to offer more DC/DPS/Unique Abilities to cope with sorc and warlock. Would like to see something about the capstone, currently on a wizard it's not worth it loosing evasion on a high reflex class that uses light/no armor to get 2 INT.



And please can we have the red glow eyes while in lich? Since you added warlock, you change the lich to have light eyes like the spirit. I liked the red glow 1000x more.

SirValentine
03-18-2017, 05:27 PM
Ok, you're not serious.

Sure I'm serious. Do you let people know you plan to be in form, and ask them to help? If you do that, is everyone you play with, all the time, either incompetent, or a selfish jerk?

If so, that's the problem, not the fact that being undead has deliberate trade-offs.

SirValentine
03-18-2017, 05:32 PM
As for AM being inferior to PM, currently it comes down to about a single DC difference except when discussing Necromancy. I've met many a fleshy AM that can hold their own in the highest content because they "didn't want to be undead". They figured out what works for them.

Yup, and I've met many wizards who have investment in both trees, and sometimes run in form, and sometimes don't, situation dependent.

Memnir
03-18-2017, 05:45 PM
I'd only be okay if it were a variation on the Warforged Healer's Friend perk... You'd never get full benefit from positive energy healing. But maybe some.

Because if you want the benefit of being undead, you should also still have the drawbacks of being undead. But, for quality of life I can see giving a small boon to the PMs out there.

Ellihor
03-18-2017, 07:24 PM
Sure I'm serious. Do you let people know you plan to be in form, and ask them to help? If you do that, is everyone you play with, all the time, either incompetent, or a selfish jerk?

Doesn't work. The damage of the negative spells suck and they need you to be faced to the guy. Can't use cocoon, EA SLA or Renewal. The Radiant Servant improved caster lv and removed cap doesn't work for negative.

Let alone the fact that on reaper things happen fast, it's terrible for a healer to have to use a different spell for that single guy. The typical result will be wasted SP when he tries to use positive on the PM, and end up healing himself, while the PM dies.

It just doesn't work. This is why I said you're not serious. People should not talk about stuff they don't know about.


If so, that's the problem, not the fact that being undead has deliberate trade-offs.

Being another class doesn't have any trade offs. So why, keep this for wizards?

Ellihor
03-18-2017, 07:26 PM
I'd only be okay if it were a variation on the Warforged Healer's Friend perk... You'd never get full benefit from positive energy healing. But maybe some.

Because if you want the benefit of being undead, you should also still have the drawbacks of being undead. But, for quality of life I can see giving a small boon to the PMs out there.

Why? Because wizards would be OP compared to sorcerers or warlocks?

psykopeta
03-19-2017, 07:13 AM
I'm actually at odds for which would be the better solution...
Change Inflict/Harm to work like Cure/Heal or vice versa.

To make it properly healing spells shouldn't be casted on self w/o targetting(most times F1) and to heal whatever there must be a LoS, can't understand what sense makes healing 1 guy that is behind you, but hey you can't if he is just around the next corner

Also the range of healing spells should be exactly the same of harming spells

Dalsheel
03-19-2017, 07:32 AM
Must do at least of of these to make wizard worth it, otherwise you're always better of as a warlock of sorc:

- Give INT option as a stat to Exalted Angel
- Give us an option to turn of undead traits but maintain form
- Buff magister and draconic to cope with EA
- Buff the wizard trees to offer more DC/DPS/Unique Abilities to cope with sorc and warlock. Would like to see something about the capstone, currently on a wizard it's not worth it loosing evasion on a high reflex class that uses light/no armor to get 2 INT.



And please can we have the red glow eyes while in lich? Since you added warlock, you change the lich to have light eyes like the spirit. I liked the red glow 1000x more.

All they need to do is remove the CHA option from EA. It's supposed to be the Divine caster destiny. No divine caster uses CHA for DC. ALL of them use WIS. Problem solved.

Rys
03-19-2017, 07:35 AM
All they need to do is remove the CHA option from EA. It's supposed to be the Divine caster destiny. No divine caster uses CHA for DC. ALL of them use WIS. Problem solved.

Healbot FvS can get a use of CHA in EA.

Enoach
03-19-2017, 08:31 AM
All they need to do is remove the CHA option from EA. It's supposed to be the Divine caster destiny. No divine caster uses CHA for DC. ALL of them use WIS. Problem solved.

Charisma and Divines...

Charisma is part of the Turn Undead calculation - There are still places even in upper Epics where Turn Undead won't destroy the undead but does stun them.

Charisma is part of the Paladin abilities calculation be it Lay On Hands or Smite Evil

For Purple Dragon Knight characters Charisma plays into Tactical DCs

To think of EA as only a DC caster destiny is actually a very limiting view, especially since the Angelic Form adds so much Light damage to melee attacks.

Another aspect that would be missed by simply removing Charisma as an option is that its Aura Stance grants +2 Charisma

But for those that play warlocks the big boost in Light/Alignment damage is the big selling point. The fact that the stance and Charisma is an option as well as the cores increase in DCs are more like icing on the cake.

SirValentine
03-20-2017, 08:59 PM
All they need to do is remove the CHA option from EA. It's supposed to be the Divine caster destiny. No divine caster uses CHA for DC. ALL of them use WIS. Problem solved.

At the time they added the +3 DC boost to EA, I applauded the result. Prior to that time, divines were way behind Wizards in DC potential, and I don't want to go back to that.

But in retrospect, it was not a very good way to achieve that result, coming too late to help in Heroic levels, and having too many unintended consequences. The huge benefit to Sorc/Bard/Warlock, for prime example, who get more DC out of EA than the divines.

They should nerf EA's +3 DC boost down to +1, and at the same time buff Season's Herald, Angel of Vengeance, and Divine Disciple to make up the difference. Which would also help Druids who want to run in a Primal destiny. Then if they're not getting a huge DC boost from it, maybe some Wizards won't be so whiny about wanting to run in EA.

Ellihor
03-21-2017, 07:29 AM
Playing undead was the only thing that was still a reason to play as a wizard. Without undead, now you loose 4 points of necromancy, because you will stop getting those 2 from aura proccing Deific Diadem. The DC you can get on a sorc in EA is RHOUGLY the same you can get on a wizard out of form.

Sorc have more SP, less cooldowns and cast faster. You will have more DPS. It's easier to lv up. You will be on EA, a superior destiny, and you regen wings twice as faster than any other class but a fvs.

You can do anything wizard does. There is no trade off. No reason to stay a wizard.

Just do what is suggested here, and the problem is solved. Shouldn't take much resources to implement.

Dalsheel
03-21-2017, 09:12 AM
Charisma and Divines...

Charisma is part of the Turn Undead calculation - There are still places even in upper Epics where Turn Undead won't destroy the undead but does stun them.

Charisma is part of the Paladin abilities calculation be it Lay On Hands or Smite Evil

For Purple Dragon Knight characters Charisma plays into Tactical DCs

To think of EA as only a DC caster destiny is actually a very limiting view, especially since the Angelic Form adds so much Light damage to melee attacks.

Another aspect that would be missed by simply removing Charisma as an option is that its Aura Stance grants +2 Charisma

But for those that play warlocks the big boost in Light/Alignment damage is the big selling point. The fact that the stance and Charisma is an option as well as the cores increase in DCs are more like icing on the cake.

Can you name 1 cleric that chooses CHA instead of WIS on EA tiers? With 40 or so CHA you're always on the max turning tier, anything more than that does nothing for your turn undead, except for adding extra total HD you can turn... getting +6 CHA for a mere +3 total HD on turning is beyond stupid.

Can you name 1 paladin that uses EA instead of the vastly superior and melee focused Divine Crusader?

PDKs and tactics have nothing to do with a divine caster destiny.

Angelic form adds so much damage? ~240 light on vorpals (480 vs Undead) is sooo much.... how could I miss it! Oh, wait, EA is actually a DC caster destiny and nothing else.

The stance that adds +2 CHA is yet another reason CHA-based arcanes run in EA. It should be WIS if you ask me. Divine casters don't care about CHA. FvS get 30 spellpoints/CHA mod clerics get more Turn attempts. That's it. Nobody cares about CHA on a DC Divine caster!

The big selling point is the tier1 light spellpower you say? It's the easiest twist there is, if that's what you're looking for. Now, let me explain how this works... CHA based arcanes use EA because they get +7 DC to their spells and a mass cure SLA. Mostly because of the +7DC (+8 in Angelic form). They lose 5 caster levels and gain 7 DC to their spells. Am I clear on this? The +7DC is the selling point! Not the tier1 spellpower.

Dalsheel
03-21-2017, 09:19 AM
Healbot FvS can get a use of CHA in EA.

Pretty sure a Healbot FvS would run in Sentinel, not in EA.

PS: Who plays healbot FvS anyway?

Enoach
03-21-2017, 09:21 AM
Playing undead was the only thing that was still a reason to play as a wizard. Without undead, now you loose 4 points of necromancy, because you will stop getting those 2 from aura proccing Deific Diadem. The DC you can get on a sorc in EA is RHOUGLY the same you can get on a wizard out of form.

Sorc have more SP, less cooldowns and cast faster. You will have more DPS. It's easier to lv up. You will be on EA, a superior destiny, and you regen wings twice as faster than any other class but a fvs.

You can do anything wizard does. There is no trade off. No reason to stay a wizard.

Just do what is suggested here, and the problem is solved. Shouldn't take much resources to implement.

The DCs you get from Deific Diadem are based on the spell so Death Aura even for non-PMs will still proc the DC. Death Aura is simply not doing double duty of upping DCs and Providing Healing.

Sorcerers do have more spell points then Wizards, when all things are equal.

The Wizard's advantage is mainly in its flexibility of spell selection. The ability to adjust to spells better suited for the encounter. So switching between damage types; elemental/force/untyped/negative or even save targets; reflex/will/fortitude is as simple as a rest at the shrine or trip to a bar. I have often used one set of spells for the Quest and switched spells for the end fight. Wizards that don't take advantage of this ability is much like a Barbarian not raging compared to a Fighter.

The next advantage is in the number of Known Spells and Active Memorized Spells.

There is no need to adjust based on the suggestions you outlined. Both Wizard and Sorcerer should be up for a pass sometime. My hope is they include more spell options especially in schools that have very few spells to choose from.

Wipey
03-21-2017, 09:46 AM
My wizard is 95+ enchanter sorc now but to be honest I don't remember the last time I changed spells as wizard. Except Blind + FTS for MoDs and that was long time ago. BDB for Gop, banish for Vale maybe, Sunburst for Wyrm or High Road.
Ooze puppet for Etk for nostalgia sake lol.

I would spend hours putzing with twists ( spell pen setups mostly) or enhancements but spells ? Not really.

The guy has a point. Palemaster without negative hjealing and uber necro is not much one, is he ?

Ellihor
02-16-2018, 11:42 AM
Bump