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View Full Version : Making Tokens of the 12/Greater Tokens of the 12 Drop in All Lvl 20+ Quests & Raids



changelingamuck
02-28-2017, 08:12 PM
I would like to propose that Token of the Twelve Fragments (http://ddowiki.com/page/Token_of_the_Twelve#Tokens_of_the_Twelve_Fragments ), Tokens of the Twelve (http://ddowiki.com/page/Token_of_the_Twelve#Tokens_of_the_Twelve), and Greater Tokens of the Twelve (http://ddowiki.com/page/Token_of_the_Twelve#Greater_Token_of_the_Twelve) should start dropping in all epic/legendary quests and raids just as they do in a subset of epic quests and raids set in Eberron (http://ddowiki.com/page/Token_of_the_Twelve#Drop_per_quest).

And they can be un-re-named back to being called "Token Fragments", "Epic Dungeon Tokens", and "Epic Raid Tokens" so the change doesn't conflict with the source material lore.

Considering that greater tokens of the twelve and tokens of the twelve are heavily used in three core game systems, Cannith crafting through Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments (http://ddowiki.com/page/Purified_Eberron_Dragonshard_Fragment), item augments through Lahar the Epic Trader (http://ddowiki.com/page/Augment_Slot/Purchasable_Augments#Lahar.2C_Epic_Trader_.28selec t_augments_ML_4-20.29), and Heroic True Reincarnation through Heroic True Hearts of Wood (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Heroic_True_Heart_of_Wood), they should drop in every single epic quest/raid. These are core systems of the game. Cannith crafting and item augmentation are not small, isolated crafting systems like dragontouched armor, TOEE crafting, etc.. and heroic reincarnation is a core method of character advancement. So, these fundamental game systems shouldn't rely heavily on an ingredient that only drops from a small subset of the game's older epic quests.

When Menace of the Underdark (http://ddowiki.com/page/Motu) came out, there was a justification given to limit the quests that they drop in based on Eberron lore--meaning that they would only drop in Eberron quests. Later on, of course, we found that they were not included as drops in newly epic-ed Eberron quests/raids either (e.g. epic Gianthold and Three Barrel Cove). So, that justification went up in smoke and there was no explanation for that omission (that I know of).

To Address Revenue Concerns: If there's an overriding concern about how this change would affect revenue gained from sales of Heroic True Hearts of Wood, then okay go ahead and reasonably reduce the drop rates of the fragments and tokens. Hell, just eliminate fragment drops entirely. The key issue to address here is that the limited number of epic quests and raids that the fragments and tokens drop in is a structural design feature that arbitrarily funnels players towards playing specific content that they may not want to play. It's worth noting that greater scarcity of the fragments and tokens may encourage sales of Heroic True Hearts of Wood somewhat, but if they were to also drop in newer content, it would provide a small, but greater incentive for players to buy and play newer adventure packs.

It's fine for game systems like dragontouched armor and TOEE crafting to be dependent on running a small subset of quests/raids because those game systems only provide benefits for specific level ranges. Cannith crafting, item augmentation, and heroic TR-ing are fundamental systems game-wide; so it's not player-friendly for the use of those systems to be strongly tied to running a small number of quests/raids.

If the developers don't make the tokens drop in every epic/legendary quest and raid, then the tokens should, at least, drop in every single epic/legendary Eberron quest and raid. That was how re-naming the tokens from Epic Dungeon/Raid Tokens to (Greater)/Tokens of the Twelve was justified in the first place. They were supposed to have been re-named in order to distinguish them as being Eberron-specific (or non-Forgotten Realms) epic drops; but instead they became pre-'Menace of the Underdark release'-specific drops under a new name. If that decision was made in order to maintain a certain amount of scarcity for them, then I feel that that scarcity should have been maintained by reducing their drop-rates not by limiting them to a small subset of quite old epic content.

Please provide /signed's and /not signed's and commentary.

DISCLAIMER: I included a poll. Regardless of the results though, there's no way of knowing whether or not the results of the poll are statistically representative of the overall population of DDO players or even whether or not it's representative of the people who visit this thread. This is because DDO forum polls have tiny sample sizes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size_determination), are non-random convenience (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convenience_sampling) surveys, and can't be evaluated for reasons behind their rates of non-reponse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-response_bias); so even if the poll questions are written in a non-biasing way with exhaustive and mutually exclusive response categorie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Questionnaire_construction)s, they are not reliable sources for generalizing to broader populations. The poll is just there because... I don't know, but it's there.

Maxxcore
02-28-2017, 08:20 PM
/signed

Hate running GH saga's with and getting no tokens.

Zeleron
02-28-2017, 08:57 PM
Don't think the twelve have anything to do with the forgotten realms so it wouldn't make sense to drop in quests over there. They changed from the token fragments to distinguish origins or so they could be lazy and not have to implement them into loot tables anymore. Although it seems people are more worried about the fact they just implemented a system that benefits Tr'ing again and are to busy complaining about that.

*maybe I should read full post before responding*

changelingamuck
02-28-2017, 10:08 PM
Don't think the twelve have anything to do with the forgotten realms so it wouldn't make sense to drop in quests over there. They changed from the token fragments to distinguish origins or so they could be lazy and not have to implement them into loot tables anymore.

They changed the name so they could ensure a certain level of scarcity to them. And they applied the Eberron-specific re-name to justify it with source material lore. [And by "they", I mean the development team at the time of the MotU expansion release, many years ago, which isn't the same development team we have today.] There's a good chance that they actually had to do specific coding at the time to make it so that "all epic quests/raids" didn't = "drop fragments and tokens". I might be wrong, but I really doubt that, when all epic quests were level 20, they individually coded each quest to drop token fragments, epic tokens, and epic raid tokens, as opposed to just coding "epic level quest/raid" = "drop fragments and tokens".

Which takes more time/resources? Coding "Offering of Blood Drop Epic Tokens = Yes", "Chains of Flame Drop Epic Tokens = Yes", "A Small Problem Drop Epic Tokens = Yes", "Under The Big Top Drop Epic Tokens = Yes" etc. etc. etc. or coding "Quest Level = 20+ Drop Epic Tokens = Yes"? People generally don't get this actual labor/time issue of tailored vs. blanket coding changes. This was, in all likelihood, a structural design decision to restrict a drop to certain content that was justified by a source material lore re-naming to these ingredients.

I'm just saying do whatever you have to do in terms of reducing drop rates to maintain the current scarcity; but don't funnel players into a small subset of epic quests in order to participate fully in three core gaming systems.

Zeleron
02-28-2017, 10:38 PM
They changed the name so they could ensure a certain level of scarcity to them. And they applied the Eberron-specific re-name to justify it with source material lore. [And by "they", I mean the development team at the time of the MotU expansion release, many years ago, which isn't the same development team we have today.] There's a good chance that they actually had to do specific coding at the time to make it so that "all epic quests/raids" didn't = "drop fragments and tokens". I might be wrong, but I really doubt that, when all epic quests were level 20, they individually coded each quest to drop token fragments, epic tokens, and epic raid tokens, as opposed to just coding "epic level quest/raid" = "drop fragments and tokens".

Which takes more time/resources? Coding "Offering of Blood Drop Epic Tokens = Yes", "Chains of Flame Drop Epic Tokens = Yes", "A Small Problem Drop Epic Tokens = Yes", "Under The Big Top Drop Epic Tokens = Yes" etc. etc. etc. or coding "Quest Level = 20+ Drop Epic Tokens = Yes"? People generally don't get this actual labor/time issue of tailored vs. blanket coding changes. This was, in all likelihood, a structural design decision to restrict a drop to certain content that was justified by a source material lore re-naming to these ingredients.

I'm just saying do whatever you have to do in terms of reducing drop rates to maintain the current scarcity; but don't funnel players into a small subset of epic quests in order to participate fully in three core gaming systems.

Think its more along the lines: "offering of blood drop epic tokens/fragments = yes"
"If yes, Token and/or fragments"
"If Token, add 1 token to chest."
"If fragments, choose number between 30-60 add to chest"
"If both, add 1 token to chest and choose number between 30-60 add to chest"
^overly simplified version. if they coded each quest token drops seperately. probably about 30-40 more lines per quest for actual coding.

changelingamuck
02-28-2017, 10:43 PM
Level 20 Cap, pre-MotU expansion: Epic Tokens drop in All Level 20+ quests/raids

Level 24 Cap, upon MotU Expansion: The scarcity of epic tokens is restricted to pre-existing level 20+ quests/raids (all Eberron since that's all we had). Justified lore-wise by changing their names to the Eberron-specific Tokens of the 12 name.

Post-Level 24 Cap: Epic tokens don't drop in any new level 20+ or newly epic-ed level 20+ content regardless of setting, Eberron or otherwise.

???

This isn't an ingredient like the Seal of the Stormreaver (http://ddowiki.com/page/Seal_of_the_Stormreaver) that one would naturally expect to be tied to running specific content.

At the very least, it's nonsense that the tokens only drop in pre-MotU level 20+ content, but no future Eberron content. To restrict this ingredient dropping in content by setting AND by release date, despite being a core element of three fundamental game systems: why?

changelingamuck
02-28-2017, 10:48 PM
Think its more along the lines: "offering of blood drop epic tokens/fragments = yes"
"If yes, Token and/or fragments"
"If Token, add 1 token to chest."
"If fragments, choose number between 30-60 add to chest"
"If both, add 1 token to chest and choose number between 30-60 add to chest"
^overly simplified version. if they coded each quest token drops seperately. probably about 30-40 more lines per quest for actual coding.

Yeah, I was trying to convey the gist of it without forcing myself to type more intricacies than I'd actually like to type out. But yeah, you're right, I was under-stating it.

EllisDee37
03-01-2017, 01:15 AM
Which takes more time/resources? Coding "Offering of Blood Drop Epic Tokens = Yes", "Chains of Flame Drop Epic Tokens = Yes", "A Small Problem Drop Epic Tokens = Yes", "Under The Big Top Drop Epic Tokens = Yes" etc. etc. etc. or coding "Quest Level = 20+ Drop Epic Tokens = Yes"? People generally don't get this actual labor/time issue of tailored vs. blanket coding changes. This was, in all likelihood, a structural design decision to restrict a drop to certain content that was justified by a source material lore re-naming to these ingredients.The quests that drop tokens and fragments drop different amounts, so clearly each one was set by hand. Otherwise EN DA token farms wouldn't be a thing.

Stoner81
03-01-2017, 07:00 AM
Having them drop in only Eberron based quests would be good as long as ALL quests could drop them I think that would fit well thematically and everything else.

Stoner81.

Dawyrm
03-03-2017, 06:18 AM
Good idea, voted for all 20+'s in Eberron. Also upgrading lvl20 Cannith Challenges gear seems to burn tokens fast.

Edit: And yeah, remove frags... combine them takes forever anyway.

Saekee
03-03-2017, 07:04 AM
/signed
a well-articulated, well-thought post

more PEDs mean more crafting for others too.

Nonesuch2008
03-06-2017, 06:22 PM
/Signed as well, for Eberron specific content. I see this as enabling a wider variety of content for players to run. We've not had any new Token drops since the Lords of Dust chain was introduced, correct?

changelingamuck
03-08-2017, 04:08 AM
/Signed as well, for Eberron specific content. I see this as enabling a wider variety of content for players to run. We've not had any new Token drops since the Lords of Dust chain was introduced, correct?

I'm pretty sure that's correct, yeah.

Nonesuch2008
03-08-2017, 09:34 PM
I'm pretty sure that's correct, yeah.

I thought so, which means the question is now that we know that the hearts needed for racial reincarnation can be purchased with Tokens of the Twelve, will SSG make them easier to farm? I prefer to save my store points for other things. Some people will want to take the store-bought shortcut method, I'm sure, but then there are those such as myself who will still stoically grind tokens out for hearts in the same old quests as needed. SSG, can we add a little more variety into the mix, please?

Thanks

Rinimand
03-06-2018, 08:12 AM
Drop in all 20+ quests.
This will encourage purchase of 20 quest adventure packs. It did for me! (Premium player for 10 years who rarely buys content)
/signed

JonBiryon
03-06-2018, 05:59 PM
Edit: And yeah, remove frags... combine them takes forever anyway.

Yes if you use altar of epic rituals. You can combine them very quickly using the token trading menu (same one you use to get hearts of wood/blood)

QuantumFX
03-06-2018, 10:12 PM
Allow us to trade Commendations of Valor for all styles of Hearts of Wood.

Aelonwy
03-07-2018, 08:28 AM
I voted for tokens dropping in all 20+ Eberron content for consistency if no other reason. But I doubt we'll ever see it happen because they would rather we got tired of running the same content over and over for tokens and just spent $$ on hearts and augments from the store.

This is one of those aggravations left intentionally in the game to wear people down so they spend real money to bypass the boredom.

Sunnie
03-07-2018, 09:31 AM
Voted for all 20+ in Eberron since that's what Makes-Sensetm. But I'd be happy as long as the number of places where they drop is increased at all. It's kinda boring to faceroll House D, The Snitch, LoD and Devil Assault over and over at level 30 just to get your tokens and seeds.

Arch-Necromancer
03-10-2018, 06:34 AM
Voted for all Eberron quests, because it can't be outside of Eberron due to lore and licensing reasons.

Eberron does not include classic modules like ToEE and Slavers.