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View Full Version : Let us Discuss changes to Swim and Listen.



Voxden
02-05-2017, 03:29 PM
This is a thread I've made in an attempt to discuss how Swim and Listen could be made more useful in a future update by the Game Developers, because they do have a few good uses, but they are few and far between... leaving investment in these two skills a bit situational. I am inviting everyone who takes interest in this topic to post their own ideas, or discuss what someone else posts here(or posted in the past if their were already topics similar to this), but play nice and don't be rude if someone dislikes what you said or you hate their ideas... etc.(I have seen so many topics like this in other games go up in flames)

I myself will try to help the thread start by pitching out my own ideas.
Nothing major, but just a simple tweak or two, but maybe with an addition included if needed.

Listen: Perhaps make it so Listen slightly boosts the bonus from Bard songs with a fairly short duration(only a tiny bit like up to... 10% at skill 40?), and/or perhaps give folks who invest enough in Listen some screen indicators when something happening in combat is off-screen (like a spell being cast) within a small radius somewhat determined by Listen... also, if it hasn't fixed by now, make it work when you are blind.

Swim: I heard it boosts fly speed, but that isn't enough I figure(if it is even true.)... So perhaps try giving it a bit a tweak, Call it Athletics instead, and make it slightly boost base running speed(to a cap, like suggested on Listen), but not to much since last thing we need is Monks being even quicker than a Human(oid)'s eye. Also, make it slightly reduce the length of Fatigue/Exhaustion... however only if it is inflicted via spells, because if barbarians can take advantage of it after their rage it will defeat the purpose of getting to level 17, I think. also, Keep the double armor check penalty(and Swimming Bonuses!), because if you wear Heavy Armor then it is of course going to weigh you down and not make getting your energies back easy.

Remember that by slightly, I meant nothing that makes it a new meta game skill, but rather something that provides a useful boost that can make it justified to invest in provided the situation is good. Of course since I have played DDO on and off, it might or might not mean that these suggestions could be useful or redundant depending on what was added in while I was gone.

Annex
02-05-2017, 08:48 PM
If I were in charge of this game I would make all skills more fun. For Listen, I would make it so that a high Listen score allows your character to hear funny monster chatter.

Sophie: *sneaks close to the two succubi talking around the corner*
Succubi One: You know Malicia stuffs her bodice, right?
Succubi Two: What???
Succubi One: Yea. She likes to tease the adventurers. That is why she dresses like a harlot and always runs her hands over herself. She has not been on a date in two centuries.
Succubi Two: No way!
Sophie's Dagger: No way!
Sophie! No way!
*everyone looks at one another*
*everyone giggles*

I am being cheeky but really, that would be awesome.

For Swim I want some darn swim fins--the big ones like SCUBA divers use. I do not need magic boots of swimming. I just need some stupid swim fins, especially for that Red Fens quest under water. I want them for The Crucible, too. If I had Severlin's job, I would make one of my developers take SCUBA lessons. When he came back, I would say, "Now make me some proper swim fins and make my character with swim fins swim like a real person with swim fins!" Also, when you swim with armour on, you sink. No, you plummet like a rock straight to Davy Jones' Locker. Ya know those stories about gangsters fitting people with cement shoes and pushing them into Lake Erie? It's just like that. I do not care what you 'Swim Score' is. If you wear armour or a 300 pound pack you go straight to the bottom. If you can breath underwater you can walk around down there like one of those turn of the century guys with giganto brass diving helms but you are not swimming anywhere. Sorry. I do not care how powerful a swimmer you are. Without swim fins you are not swimming anywhere fast. Without a buoyancy vest you are going straight to the bottom.

I am being silly but really, I vote for monster gossip and swim fins.

Sophie: *sneaks close to two sahaugin standing around a corner*
Sahaugin One: What did you have for dinner?
Sahaugn Two: A paladin. He tried to swim down here wearing full plate armour.
Sahaugin One: Idiot. He should have used a buoyancy vest and some swim fins.
Sahaugin Two: Totally.
Sophie: *quickly checks her buoyancy vest and swim fins*

Voxden
02-05-2017, 11:40 PM
If I were in charge of this game I would make all skills more fun. For Listen, I would make it so that a high Listen score allows your character to hear funny monster chatter.

Sophie: *sneaks close to the two succubi talking around the corner*
Succubi One: You know Malicia stuffs her bodice, right?
Succubi Two: What???
Succubi One: Yea. She likes to tease the adventurers. That is why she dresses like a harlot and always runs her hands over herself. She has not been on a date in two centuries.
Succubi Two: No way!
Sophie's Dagger: No way!
Sophie! No way!
*everyone looks at one another*
*everyone giggles*

I am being cheeky but really, that would be awesome.

For Swim I want some darn swim fins--the big ones like SCUBA divers use. I do not need magic boots of swimming. I just need some stupid swim fins, especially for that Red Fens quest under water. I want them for The Crucible, too. If I had Severlin's job, I would make one of my developers take SCUBA lessons. When he came back, I would say, "Now make me some proper swim fins and make my character with swim fins swim like a real person with swim fins!" Also, when you swim with armour on, you sink. No, you plummet like a rock straight to Davy Jones' Locker. Ya know those stories about gangsters fitting people with cement shoes and pushing them into Lake Erie? It's just like that. I do not care what you 'Swim Score' is. If you wear armour or a 300 pound pack you go straight to the bottom. If you can breath underwater you can walk around down there like one of those turn of the century guys with giganto brass diving helms but you are not swimming anywhere. Sorry. I do not care how powerful a swimmer you are. Without swim fins you are not swimming anywhere fast. Without a buoyancy vest you are going straight to the bottom.

I am being silly but really, I vote for monster gossip and swim fins.

Sophie: *sneaks close to two sahaugin standing around a corner*
Sahaugin One: What did you have for dinner?
Sahaugn Two: A paladin. He tried to swim down here wearing full plate armour.
Sahaugin One: Idiot. He should have used a buoyancy vest and some swim fins.
Sahaugin Two: Totally.
Sophie: *quickly checks her buoyancy vest and swim fins*

As silly as it seems... the monster chatter could be a fun way to learn some interesting aspects of some aspects of the area/individuals you wouldn't otherwise learn, or earn rewards in quests as optional objectives. Plus the swim-fins sounds pretty good for the small majority of players who actually invested in the skill(tho should be able to be turned on and off when the fun wears off.).

daniel7
02-06-2017, 06:17 AM
I like the idea that Swim is just Athletic Ability. In addition to reduced Fatigue time I would add extended time to Haste.

Listen. More traps should use Listen. Listen should help you "see" enemies when blinded. How cool would it be to be a blinded Zen Archer that could see enemy outlines.

cdbd3rd
02-06-2017, 06:34 AM
...

I am being cheeky but really, that would be awesome.

....

So Sophie comes by it honestly, ya say? :p


LOTRO has NPC chatter in public areas. It could be expanded into dungeon areas, I imagine.

Random NPC chatter from Fallen Earth:

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt291/cdbd3rd/temp%20pix/FEbaseballchat.jpg (http://s621.photobucket.com/user/cdbd3rd/media/temp%20pix/FEbaseballchat.jpg.html)

Voxden
02-08-2017, 03:02 PM
I like the idea that Swim is just Athletic Ability. In addition to reduced Fatigue time I would add extended time to Haste.

Listen. More traps should use Listen. Listen should help you "see" enemies when blinded. How cool would it be to be a blinded Zen Archer that could see enemy outlines.

the haste bonus boost, I dunno... It is pretty potent stuff right there, but it might work depending... I think Armor Check Penalty to the athletics that I talked about would level it out enough.

For listen: Heck yeah, but I would want a blindfold to just because it would look cool!

Thrudh
02-08-2017, 03:52 PM
If I were in charge of this game I would make all skills more fun. For Listen, I would make it so that a high Listen score allows your character to hear funny monster chatter.

Sophie: *sneaks close to the two succubi talking around the corner*
Succubi One: You know Malicia stuffs her bodice, right?
Succubi Two: What???
Succubi One: Yea. She likes to tease the adventurers. That is why she dresses like a harlot and always runs her hands over herself. She has not been on a date in two centuries.
Succubi Two: No way!
Sophie's Dagger: No way!
Sophie! No way!
*everyone looks at one another*
*everyone giggles*

I am being cheeky but really, that would be awesome.

Quite a few of the earliest quests do give you special DM messages with a high Listen score, and I used to keep my Listen high because I enjoyed it so much.

They stopped doing that for a while, so I quit bothering with my Listen skill. They may have started adding special listen messages again (I do see special Spot messages now and then), but I haven't played a high Listen guy for years and years so I wouldn't know.

I would love it if they would add Listen dialogue to new quests.

Voxden
02-08-2017, 03:57 PM
Quite a few of the earliest quests do give you special DM messages with a high Listen score, and I used to keep my Listen high because I enjoyed it so much.

They stopped doing that for a while, so I quit bothering with my Listen skill. They may have started adding special listen messages again (I do see special Spot messages now and then), but I haven't played a high Listen guy for years and years so I wouldn't know.

I would love it if they would add Listen dialogue to new quests.

I know you were replying to Annex, but I had no idea about that. Tho no doubt they quit for some reason, because since if it was present in other parts of the game then people would probably know more about it.

Hafeal
02-08-2017, 04:07 PM
There are a few spots where listen will give indicators. Listen will also set off warnings around the feet of hidden, camoflouged, sneaking, and displaced creatures.

I have never heard swim helped with fly, but as "flying" is even less used than swim ...

I can tell you this, the devs had a proposal and discussion with the 1st Players' Council about "reinventing" listen and what it could do - I don't remember the exact details, but, the PC was "for" making skills better but heavily split on the "how." Of course many other skills were brought up in the discussion.

P.S. Ah ha! Found it:


~ We asked about having the Listen skill reduce Blur/Displacement effects. The flavor was supposed to be sort of a Daredevil hearing footsteps/sounds from the actual position of the enemy. The council was concerned that PCs with these abilities would be nerfed too much because monsters have high Listen skills.

Sev~

Because, of course, what is good for the goose is good for the gander!

This quote is from my thread on a redux of the 1st PC: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/454362-Inaugural-Player-Council-Redux-What-did-they-do

Annex
02-09-2017, 07:43 AM
Quite a few of the earliest quests do give you special DM messages with a high Listen score, and I used to keep my Listen high because I enjoyed it so much.

They stopped doing that for a while, so I quit bothering with my Listen skill. They may have started adding special listen messages again (I do see special Spot messages now and then), but I haven't played a high Listen guy for years and years so I wouldn't know.

I would love it if they would add Listen dialogue to new quests.

Whoa! Thanks for that, Thrudh. :) I will make a point of watching for those messages when I make my next run through low levels.

Cordovan
02-09-2017, 09:23 AM
There are some cool ideas in this thread. I don't know that we have any short-term plans to adjust these skills, but we do recognize that they are less desirable for many folks.

I actually do personally like/use Swim, though, as it makes it much easier to do the underwater parts of quests. I can also confirm that Swim does indeed increase your fly speed. SSG peeps who have need to use admins in the live worlds will often super-increase their Swim skill through an admin command so that their fly speed gets much faster. :)

Requiro
02-10-2017, 07:42 AM
Maybe...

Listen: 1% Bard song duration per 1 Point, 1% Dodge per 20 Point, No Hard Cap
Athletic replace Swim, and adds: 1 HP per 1 Point, 1 PRR per 10 Point, No Hard Cap

mezzorco
02-11-2017, 10:26 AM
DDO is based on 3.5e but takes inspiration from 4e and 5e.

So why don't you collapse Listen and Spot into Perception, and Jump and Swim into Athletics?

doubledge
02-11-2017, 01:59 PM
DDO is based on 3.5e but takes inspiration from 4e and 5e.

So why don't you collapse Listen and Spot into Perception, and Jump and Swim into Athletics?

Heck yes. Perception makes a ton of sense. Athletics would also be funny.

As for perception: you'd need to add this feat.

Feat: Blind Fighting (Martial feat, Martial Arts Feat)
Requirements: 11 BAB, Perception 10

Bonuses: While blinded, you can see outlines of targets. You bypass 10% concealment. You do not take penalties when blinded.


For the other suggestion in the thread: +1 hp/point in athletics is absurd. Just plain absurd. +1 hp/2 or 3 points would be more sane.

Unrelated note: Hitting an enemy that's stealthed should grant a free sneak attack: No-one expects to be counter-sneak-attacked.

SamaelBael
02-11-2017, 06:53 PM
Listen:
* See the red flashes of the successful listen check through closed doors and while blinded.
* Red flashes, visible to all party-members on the spawn-points of ambushes that fail a save against listen.
* Create Optionals: Gather information about x from eavesdropping in the guardroom/ throne room/ dungeon/...
* "Spidey Sense" indicating mobs behind the character/outside of view
* slight attack/damage bonus to ranged weapons due to a higher awareness of enemy movement and wind speed/direction
* offering the ability to target mobs through walls/doors. range depends on skill level, targeting requires a skill check against move silently.

Swim:
* Fire damage reduction while in water
* Cold DR while on land
* While in water gain a form of Deflect Arrows (even bullets are stopped by water, why not implement it for all ranged weapons?)
* A (lead belt) toggle that deactivates feather fall, drops the character to the ground (even in water) and allows walking underwater (speed increase by skill level)

Not quite the right topic, but something that really bugs me:
Get rid of all debuffs that negate TUMBLING! I would understand a penalty, but I can't figure out the need to implement a complete negation of the skill while the DA is active or some mobs (dragons) who have AoE debuffs.
Tumbling through mobs was implemented to boost usefulness of tumble and is, apart from Thief Acrobats (core lvl12), only available in epic levels (Magister tier1). Almost forgot Deep Gnomes, tier1.
It really bugs me that in those situations I can walk and jump, but not roll on the floor...


DDO is based on 3.5e but takes inspiration from 4e and 5e.

So why don't you collapse Listen and Spot into Perception, and Jump and Swim into Athletics?

Tumble too, please.


Heck yes. Perception makes a ton of sense. Athletics would also be funny.

As for perception: you'd need to add this feat.

Feat: Blind Fighting (Martial feat, Martial Arts Feat)
Requirements: 11 BAB, Perception 10

Bonuses: While blinded, you can see outlines of targets. You bypass 10% concealment. You do not take penalties when blinded.


Or a second attack roll against incorporeality and concealment:
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Blind_fight

Combining skills is a great idea. IMHO no buffs to the skills surpasses the benefits of less skills to level, less item enchantments I need to find a spot for.

Chimmy
02-11-2017, 11:49 PM
DDO is based on 3.5e but takes inspiration from 4e and 5e.

So why don't you collapse Listen and Spot into Perception, and Jump and Swim into Athletics?

You want less skill options? I want more, so -1 to that notion based on variety and choice alone.

As far as extra benefits go, a jump over 40 having an incremental slow falling effect would suit, for swim I am not sure, maybe damage reduction to deep lava, and/or increasing breath times, and/or reduced slippery surfaces effect (representing sea legs)?

KoobTheProud
02-11-2017, 11:52 PM
You could make Listen better by removing one of the bugs in stealth movement at this point, the red flashes around your own feet that only happen when enemy mobs are around - hidden or otherwise. When I'm sneaking around an instance those red flashes alert me to other mobs before I know they are there. This not surprisingly causes me to slow down and look around and to accurately deduce that there might be mobs ahead through a closed door or around a corner.

Ok, so a high Listen score could return those flashes around my feet, assuming I invested in the skill at a high enough level vs the opposing mobs for it to trigger. My hearing would be so good that I could tell I was making too much noise given the minute sounds the mobs themselves were making behind that door or around the corner, hence warning me of their presence.

And of course the other effect of Listen works ok, which is when I am standing still I will see the red flashes around invisible/sneaking mob's feet as they approach me. As I'm moving the first indication that I get is my own red flashes, followed sometimes by the opposing mobs red flashes if they're moving.

Swimming is just a broken concept in MMO's and in DDO in particular. Swimming in Plate Mail is ridiculous. Swimming in Chain Mail is ridiculous. Swimming in Leather Armor is ridiculous. Swimming in a Robe is ridiculous. Wet clothes will drown you just as surely as anything else. Underwater Action lets you avoid all of that as if a spell had been cast on you and that's probably the best way to look at it from an immersion standpoint. To make Swim better probably the best thing you could do is have it significantly reduce the delay in donning armor. Then a high Swim skill lets you get in and out of your gear quickly and swim faster once you're in the water to boot! And speaking of boots in the water...

Tscheuss
02-12-2017, 12:56 AM
You could make Listen better by removing one of the bugs in stealth movement at this point, the red flashes around your own feet that only happen when enemy mobs are around - hidden or otherwise. When I'm sneaking around an instance those red flashes alert me to other mobs before I know they are there. This not surprisingly causes me to slow down and look around and to accurately deduce that there might be mobs ahead through a closed door or around a corner.

Ok, so a high Listen score could return those flashes around my feet, assuming I invested in the skill at a high enough level vs the opposing mobs for it to trigger. My hearing would be so good that I could tell I was making too much noise given the minute sounds the mobs themselves were making behind that door or around the corner, hence warning me of their presence.

And of course the other effect of Listen works ok, which is when I am standing still I will see the red flashes around invisible/sneaking mob's feet as they approach me. As I'm moving the first indication that I get is my own red flashes, followed sometimes by the opposing mobs red flashes if they're moving.

Swimming is just a broken concept in MMO's and in DDO in particular. Swimming in Plate Mail is ridiculous. Swimming in Chain Mail is ridiculous. Swimming in Leather Armor is ridiculous. Swimming in a Robe is ridiculous. Wet clothes will drown you just as surely as anything else. Underwater Action lets you avoid all of that as if a spell had been cast on you and that's probably the best way to look at it from an immersion standpoint. To make Swim better probably the best thing you could do is have it significantly reduce the delay in donning armor. Then a high Swim skill lets you get in and out of your gear quickly and swim faster once you're in the water to boot! And speaking of boots in the water...

I gather you have never been swimming while fully clothed? It has been mandatory in several water safety classes I have attended. :)

KoobTheProud
02-12-2017, 01:06 AM
I gather you have never been swimming while fully clothed? It has been mandatory in several water safety classes I have attended. :)

I took the Red Cross swimming certification courses through Junior Lifeguard when I was a kid. The first thing they tell you is to get your shoes off if you are suddenly submerged. They have a tendency to become very heavy when they are soaked. :)

I just did Tomb of the Shadow Guard earlier today. I hate that instance with a passion because it combines two of the features of DDO that are least appealing to me, 1) lots of underwater swimming and 2) doubling back on your trail a couple of times over (or under in this case) ground you've already covered. It's not quite as bad as The Coalescence Chamber on the latter thingy but it's close.

Tscheuss
02-12-2017, 01:25 AM
I took the Red Cross swimming certification courses through Junior Lifeguard when I was a kid. The first thing they tell you is to get your shoes off if you are suddenly submerged. They have a tendency to become very heavy when they are soaked. :)

I just did Tomb of the Shadow Guard earlier today. I hate that instance with a passion because it combines two of the features of DDO that are least appealing to me, 1) lots of underwater swimming and 2) doubling back on your trail a couple of times over (or under in this case) ground you've already covered. It's not quite as bad as The Coalescence Chamber on the latter thingy but it's close.

Removing shoes would have disqualified me from progressing.

The key to Shadow Guard is to follow the lights. It is very linear, unless you go for the option. :)

skorpeon
02-12-2017, 01:41 AM
I always wondered why we had no underwater combat. It would allow for some interesting features.

Obviously swim would be a big deal when fighting a shark underwater! Monks and Daggers would be the way to go, ohh and of course underwater repeaters.

Listen, sorry no idea there but it does work like spot for me. I like the idea of listening to NPC's conversations so they give you clues, but as we tend to rerun quests that is really only useful for new people.