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Cocomajobo
01-20-2017, 01:53 PM
[UPDATE 7: Lammania is back up!

It is quite possible that I will be hosting a Dev event Thursday night from 8:00 - 10:00 PM EST. If you'd like to show up, ask questions, give feedback, and allow me (and potentially others from the team) observe as you take on the newest incarnation of Reaper difficulty we'd love to have you!]

[UPDATE 6: Lammania will be coming down momentarily. It will then be reopened shortly thereafter with a new build which should fix the following issues:

~ The issue causing some people not to be able to patch their Lammania client should be resolved.
~ Champions. Titles now appear when overhead health bars are visible. (May currently be acting wonky and require you to flip the setting off and on a bit. Let us know what you are experiencing with it please.)
~ Reaper Enhancements spend cannot go negative.
~ When you get Reaper XP the Tree UI closes the Reaper Enhancements window.
~ The Reaper Tree UI will list both your current total Reaper XP and how much Reaper XP you need to gain before gaining your next Reaper Point to spend in the tree.
~ Reaper Enhancements now appear in the enhancements panel in the character sheet. This allows players to drag the active enhancements to their bar for use.
~ Tier 5 exclusivity has been removed for reaper enhancements. (Was never meant to be exclusive)]

[UPDATE 5: We are officially prepping an update to the preview that will, if nothing goes wrong (which, as I am sure you are aware by now is NEVER a sure thing with a preview build especially on short notice as this one is) will be available late this afternoon or early this evening EST.]

[UPDATE 4: Due to the number of issues encountered in the build process last night a number of fixes/changes that we thought would be in the current Lammania are not currently (Such as the Reaper Tree UI not listing your current Reaper Experience and the amount needed for the next Reaper Point, Reaper Tier 5 enhancements causing lockout of the other Reaper Trees tier 5's, and being able to spend Reaper Points into the negatives). In addition, we are aware that there is an issue with the patching via the launcher that some players are encountering which is preventing them from updating Lammania. We are currently in the process of assessing the possibility of updating the preview build with those changes that should have already been in it and working towards a resolution of the patching issue. We'll keep you posted.]

[UPDATE 3: And the preview is finally open! Let us know what you think.]

[UPDATE 2: You can find the release notes here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-1-24-17)) ]

[UPDATE: Due to some issues with the build we will be opening Lammania for Preview late tonight (somewhere around maybe 11 PM EST). Because of the delay in opening we will be extending the closing date to Friday the 27th.]

Hello, everyone!

We are preparing another Lammania Preview for U34. We currently plan for this preview to be open from Tuesday January 24th through Thursday January 26th. These dates are, of course, subject to change should issues arise while we prepare the preview build.

This preview should contain all previously previewed U34 related additions and changes (with additional fixes and changes) as well as the Reaper Enhancement Trees. Specifics on what the enhancement trees contain will be provided leading up to the preview (likely in Release notes which will be posted as we are opening Lammania or shortly before).

In addition, we will be running a Dev event (likely Tuesday evening between 8-10 PM EST but, again, subject to change) in which we will be available to collect feedback, answer questions, and will be looking to pike along behind people while they run Reaper content to make observations. It should be a fun time. :)

We hope to see you there! <3

(As a note: The character transfer tool in the launcher excludes characters that are Guild Leaders. If you would like to copy a character to Lammania that is a guild leader and are not finding them in the list of available characters the simplest workaround is to momentarily assign leadership of the guild to an alt, copying your character to lammania, and then reassign leadership back to the original character. It is only during the transfer process itself that this is a problem, once your character is in the world on Lammania you are free to reassign guild leadership back to them on Live.)

cru121
01-20-2017, 02:11 PM
thanks for doing a thorough reaper preview

not sure if you guys still plan to look at U34 named items. I recall some issues from the first lama release, not sure if those are intentional or maybe even fixed.

snowball and runearm are btc. any particular reason?

IIRC heroic necklace has lower sheltering than what cannith crafting offers at that level, bump it up by +1

snowball is abysmal at 1d2 W size, other named darts had W bumped to 1d4. also 20x1 crits are not so hot. we already have ML14/28 flavor thrower (Return to Sender). Another issue is that Snowballs, unlike all other throwers, don't fly to target quickly in a straight line, but they fly up and then down slowly, as a real world snowball. WAI?

thomascoolone64
01-20-2017, 04:47 PM
Can you put ottos boxes back in the store so we can level up multiple times instead of asking the Guide?

Hipparan
01-22-2017, 05:33 PM
thanks for doing a thorough reaper preview

not sure if you guys still plan to look at U34 named items. I recall some issues from the first lama release, not sure if those are intentional or maybe even fixed.

snowball and runearm are btc. any particular reason?

IIRC heroic necklace has lower sheltering than what cannith crafting offers at that level, bump it up by +1

snowball is abysmal at 1d2 W size, other named darts had W bumped to 1d4. also 20x1 crits are not so hot. we already have ML14/28 flavor thrower (Return to Sender). Another issue is that Snowballs, unlike all other throwers, don't fly to target quickly in a straight line, but they fly up and then down slowly, as a real world snowball. WAI?

The BTC items don't make much sense to me, especially when the runearm is tied directly to a specific class. Chances are if I get a runearm, I'm on a character other than my artificer and I can just put it in the shared bank. This way though, I can see a lot of runearms being trashed or sold.

As far as I know, the snowball is WIA in all regards. It's more of a novelty item than anything else, sort of like the pumpkin heads from the Night Revels. The idea as far as I know is that people shouldn't be doing a lot of damage when they're throwing a condensed ball of snowflakes.

Hipparan
01-22-2017, 05:39 PM
Can you put ottos boxes back in the store so we can level up multiple times instead of asking the Guide?

I really want this. It's a pain having to go back and forth to level characters because the exp that we get from the guide caps out.

Opensezame
01-23-2017, 01:15 PM
I really want this. It's a pain having to go back and forth to level characters because the exp that we get from the guide caps out.

Really? Like that is the worse thing in the world. You would get fed up of the **** filling up your inventory..

I made my own suggestions for changes to the dojo but seems people don't really care as long as they get to test new stuff

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/482577-Devs-Save-being-pestered-while-on-lamannia-and-update-the-dojo

Cocomajobo
01-23-2017, 09:25 PM
thanks for doing a thorough reaper preview

not sure if you guys still plan to look at U34 named items. I recall some issues from the first lama release, not sure if those are intentional or maybe even fixed.

snowball and runearm are btc. any particular reason?

IIRC heroic necklace has lower sheltering than what cannith crafting offers at that level, bump it up by +1

snowball is abysmal at 1d2 W size, other named darts had W bumped to 1d4. also 20x1 crits are not so hot. we already have ML14/28 flavor thrower (Return to Sender). Another issue is that Snowballs, unlike all other throwers, don't fly to target quickly in a straight line, but they fly up and then down slowly, as a real world snowball. WAI?

There have been changes to the Tower of Frost named items, yes. =]

I'll save official information for either the release notes or if Nohbob wants to jump in.

Codect
01-24-2017, 10:01 AM
Any idea what time Lammania will be open?

Cocomajobo
01-24-2017, 11:16 AM
Any idea what time Lammania will be open?

Hopefully this evening. As always with unstable preview builds issues have arisen but I'm feeling pretty good that Lamma will be open today. The when is the iffy part. =P

Codect
01-24-2017, 11:26 AM
Hopefully this evening. As always with unstable preview builds issues have arisen but I'm feeling pretty good that Lamma will be open today. The when is the iffy part. =P

Ok thanks for the info.

Vanhooger
01-24-2017, 01:33 PM
Please do not open too late like last time or for us living in europe it's like if lama is never up.

die
01-24-2017, 01:45 PM
Have you Developers considered just combining the two updates? Sev's letter stated update 35 should be out around the end of February. For me I cant wait to see the new Reaper mode,

Kebtid
01-24-2017, 01:46 PM
Please do not open too late like last time or for us living in europe it's like if lama is never up.

Its semi confirmed that will happen alrdy.
If you work your best bet is try a bit before work /:

Rys
01-24-2017, 01:53 PM
Its semi confirmed that will happen alrdy.
If you work your best bet is try a bit before work /:

U crazy lol XD Giving up sleep in the morning for DDO XD Good one XD

Wizza
01-24-2017, 02:05 PM
Please do not open too late like last time or for us living in europe it's like if lama is never up.

Don't you know us Euro people are the black sheep? :)

Cocomajobo
01-24-2017, 02:55 PM
Please do not open too late like last time or for us living in europe it's like if lama is never up.

Nothing that can be done about it, I'm afraid. We're in the process of waiting for the new preview build to compile which is a process that takes hours. We're still on pace to open tonight (EST) but it will certainly be tonight as opposed to this afternoon.

jakeelala
01-24-2017, 03:03 PM
please post reaper trees

MistaMagic
01-24-2017, 03:49 PM
Tonight? Its 21;49 here in the UK so its already night

thomascoolone64
01-24-2017, 04:41 PM
Nothing that can be done about it, I'm afraid. We're in the process of waiting for the new preview build to compile which is a process that takes hours. We're still on pace to open tonight (EST) but it will certainly be tonight as opposed to this afternoon.

has the build made it to the patch server on the client yet?

Cocomajobo
01-24-2017, 05:07 PM
UPDATE: Due to some issues with the build we will be opening Lammania for Preview late tonight (somewhere around maybe 11 PM EST). Because of the delay in opening we will be extending the closing date to Friday the 27th.

OP has been updated to reflect this.

Cordovan
01-24-2017, 06:00 PM
The Release Notes have been updated for tonight's Lamannia preview.

Rys
01-24-2017, 06:18 PM
Over-level characters are not able enter quests on Reaper Difficulty. Characters cannot enter a quest on Reaper Difficulty if they are more than two levels of the base challenge rating of the dungeon or raid. Characters also cannot enter Reaper dungeons if they are Epic level and the dungeon is not.

You just killed all the fun that reaper could have brought to the most problematic part of the game - players sitting at the cap. Very very disappointing and I truly hope you will reconsider this. I was looking forward running the old raids on capped characters. Tested 10 skull Abbot in the last Lamannia build and the spells hurt a lot to the point that Horrid Wilting wiped 1500 hp character. Ah well.

EDIT: Do I understand this the right way that level 30 character can only enter level 28 quests and up on reaper? Or how does it work?

imTonE
01-24-2017, 06:36 PM
snip

Yeah, it's bad enough that all reaper epics aren't scaled to the same base level, once again reducing the masses of content into hardly anything at cap. Here I was, dreaming about entering R10 Lord of Blades at cap with all my gear and having it be super hard.

This seems like a really sneaky attempt to force us to ETR to get the most out of reaper. I would hazard a guess that the sort of player reaper is aimed at primarily want to stay at cap and play at cap. That way we can get the most out of this small playerbase. We'll TR when we change build.

Rys
01-24-2017, 06:38 PM
Here I was, dreaming about entering R10 Lord of Blades at cap with all my gear and having it be super hard.


:(

Cocomajobo
01-24-2017, 06:45 PM
EDIT: Do I understand this the right way that level 30 character can only enter level 28 quests and up on reaper? Or how does it work?

Yes, that's how it works. If the base CR of the quest is more than 2 lower than your character level you can not enter the quest on Reaper difficulty.

Rys
01-24-2017, 06:53 PM
Yes, that's how it works. If the base CR of the quest is more than 2 lower than your character level you can not enter the quest on Reaper difficulty.

So the characters that are on the cap are left with the same quests as until now. No WGU, no TOR, no LoB, no ToD, no MA, no Abbot, no Chrono...so disappointed. I thought reaper was primarly aimed at the players on the cap. This could have brought so much content into the life. Le sigh. I guess that's so much about Reaper for me.

Wizza
01-24-2017, 06:54 PM
Yes, that's how it works. If the base CR of the quest is more than 2 lower than your character level you can not enter the quest on Reaper difficulty.

The biggest draw of Reaper for endgamers was not only to have a challenge, but to have it in the quests we choose. We don't want to run the same content that we have been running for the past year. We are sick of Slavers.

We want to be able to run quests that are fun to us. Wgu, through a mirror, lob, chrono, adq1 and all that. This change is absolutely awful in my opinion, and killed the desire of even wanting to play Reaper at all.

I don't really care if you disable the XP in lower level Reaper quests, but please make us so that we can enter those. I think you greatly misunderstand how challenging those quests are on 10 skulls even for capped characteds. We were wiped in one spell in Heroic Abbot with our lv30 toons.

CaptainPurge
01-24-2017, 07:15 PM
The biggest draw of Reaper for endgamers was not only to have a challenge, but to have it in the quests we choose. We don't want to run the same content that we have been running for the past year. We are sick of Slavers.

We want to be able to run quests that are fun to us. Wgu, through a mirror, lob, chrono, adq1 and all that. This change is absolutely awful in my opinion, and killed the desire of even wanting to play Reaper at all.

I don't really care if you disable the XP in lower level Reaper quests, but please make us so that we can enter those. I think you greatly misunderstand how challenging those quests are on 10 skulls even for capped characteds. We were wiped in one spell in Heroic Abbot with our lv30 toons.

I'm sitting here waiting for the client patch to be pushed and see this news and suddenly I'm way less interested as well. I suppose I'll still update the client and transfer a character but probably going to do other things tonight instead now.

Steve_Howe
01-24-2017, 07:17 PM
The Release Notes have been updated for tonight's Lamannia preview.

And here's a link to those updated Release Notes:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-12-14-16)?p=5288744#post5288744

Drwaz99
01-24-2017, 07:39 PM
Yes, that's how it works. If the base CR of the quest is more than 2 lower than your character level you can not enter the quest on Reaper difficulty.

I was really looking forward to Reaper bring me back from a extended break because I was bored of running the very limited quests at cap. This change right here deflates that semi-excited balloon completely for me and I am now 90% sure I won't come back rather than the 90% sure I was before I read this. And no, this isn't a knee-jerk reaction.

I was really looking forward to playing quests that I like rather than being pigeon-holed into a few select ones. I've done the TR/ETR/ITR hamster wheel already on 4 toons. This kills my hope of playing at cap and not being bored, again, and frankly is a huge mistake.

Tlorrd
01-24-2017, 07:40 PM
maybe I missed it, but how do you obtain reaper charges to expend for the benefits stated in the trees?

Ryethiel
01-24-2017, 07:40 PM
Characters cannot enter a quest on Reaper Difficulty if they are more than two levels of the base challenge rating of the dungeon or raid.

That is such a massive mistake. I'm sure that quests like What Goes Up would be plenty hard at 10 Skulls for a capped party. Sure, some of the lower level Epic quests might not be a massive challenge, but what is so wrong with that? You're literally restricting us to a handful of quests at a time.

Please don't destroy Reaper like this before it even hits live...

Tlorrd
01-24-2017, 07:47 PM
That is such a massive mistake. I'm sure that quests like What Goes Up would be plenty hard at 10 Skulls for a capped party. Sure, some of the lower level Epic quests might not be a massive challenge, but what is so wrong with that? You're literally restricting us to a handful of quests at a time.

Please don't destroy Reaper like this before it even hits live...

Why don't we wait to try it first before knocking it. Reaper level 1 from what I've seen is similar to elite and should be easily completable ... reaper 10 will be difficult and the huge scaling difference will allow groups to find where they fit. I see nothing wrong with this ... make the appropriate group and win (or at least try to win!).

bracelet
01-24-2017, 07:58 PM
Yes, that's how it works. If the base CR of the quest is more than 2 lower than your character level you can not enter the quest on Reaper difficulty.

Um. Wow. That is something. I was going to load it up tonight and give it another try. But, yea.

Mr_Helmet
01-24-2017, 08:00 PM
Yes, that's how it works. If the base CR of the quest is more than 2 lower than your character level you can not enter the quest on Reaper difficulty.

This is insanely stupid. This might be the dumbest idea ever in the history of the game and I'm not being hyperbolic.

Tank the reaper XP if you insist on this, but let us run for loot.

Many are done TRing.

Big issue many of us found with Reaper was that it wasn't much of an end-game, and you somehow found a way to make it WORSE.

EllisDee37
01-24-2017, 08:03 PM
How about a tweak:

You can only enter reaper quests if you're within base quest level + 2 + skulls.

"base quest level + 2" = elite, so that's the starting point
add 1 more level per skull

Meaning a level 30 could enter any epic quest on 8 skulls or higher.


Plus:

Raids have no level restrictions. Anyone can enter any reaper raid, meaning level 30s could run 1 skull heroic chrono if they wanted.

Ryethiel
01-24-2017, 08:08 PM
Why don't we wait to try it first before knocking it. Reaper level 1 from what I've seen is similar to elite and should be easily completable ... reaper 10 will be difficult and the huge scaling difference will allow groups to find where they fit. I see nothing wrong with this ... make the appropriate group and win (or at least try to win!).

There's nothing terribly wrong with the scaling as I remembered it from the first preview, that's the point. Some of the lower level epics would still put up a challenge to capped players on 10 Skulls. Others, perhaps not so much.

But with this design, It makes it so we can only do Slavers, and a handful of others at cap, and nothing else. That's the issue.

Xaxx
01-24-2017, 08:14 PM
Yes, that's how it works. If the base CR of the quest is more than 2 lower than your character level you can not enter the quest on Reaper difficulty.


So let me get this strait... you put in a -25% reaper xp per level over trigger just so you could lev cap it.

Let me also get this strait... if Im at cap and enjoyed playing a quest when I was say 25 and want to bring enough challenge back to that quest using reaper.... I'm going to have to tr for this privelage.

If I want go hunt down gear for a level 30 that falls below level 28... like say I dunno trying for mythic balizard in citw, I have to convince enough people to tr and go back down to run that quest specifically because we're level 30 and cannot run something a couple levels below us because of some autocratic bull that makes no flipping sense?

Congrats on taking something I couldnt wait for and making it something that while useful just makes me wonder where the content is at?

This truly is a turbine move... umm... i guess you didnt quite shake turbine off there did ya?

Silverleafeon
01-24-2017, 08:23 PM
Yes, that's how it works. If the base CR of the quest is more than 2 lower than your character level you can not enter the quest on Reaper difficulty.

Do the Devs mind explaining the rational of that reasoning?

The only reasons I can figure is either:

The coding for figuring out overlevel xp penalties is not available.
{Try figuring thus out. You can do it.}
Obviously overlevel should not earn reaper tree points.

Or

The Devs are afraid players will farm nice low level gear too easy.
{A valid point, but its not level cap gear, so the value is only for a few level anyway.}
When has this been a problem in the past?

Or

Other reason that I don't see?

Silverleafeon
01-24-2017, 08:25 PM
That is such a massive mistake..

I'm likely to agree.

This needs a basic Sanity Check, perhaps throw up a discussion on the PC about it?

Mr_Helmet
01-24-2017, 08:26 PM
Other reason that I don't see?

Sombody's sore because people were soloing 10-skulls while being over-level.

Epicstorms
01-24-2017, 08:38 PM
Please let us enter more quests on cap.
Just introduce some kind of Reaper XP penalty just like we have now with other quests ...

If I can't enter more quests on cap this reaper thing is really no interest to me.

Cordovan
01-24-2017, 08:44 PM
The most obvious reasons for the level restriction is because it would make it too easy for characters to farm Reaper and Mythic bonuses on named items from quests, and since Reaper provides additional XP, folks would be overly incentivized to run under-level quests on Reaper, particularly since being significantly overlevel would diminish the challenge the Reaper difficulty provided. Additionally, since the drop rate of named items is higher on Reaper, it would further encourage over-level characters to run under-level quests on Reaper.

If the main reason for wanting the level restriction removed is a wider diversity of quests for top-level characters, would people be happy if we removed the restriction but also removed the XP, Reaper/Mythic bonuses, increased drop rate, and other benefits from an under-level quest being run on Reaper, but otherwise allowed entry? Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.

Remember that Reaper difficulty is not an end game nor specifically high-level activity, but is rather an option through the leveling process.

Tlorrd
01-24-2017, 08:50 PM
This is insanely stupid. This might be the dumbest idea ever in the history of the game and I'm not being hyperbolic.

Tank the reaper XP if you insist on this, but let us run for loot.

Many are done TRing.

Big issue many of us found with Reaper was that it wasn't much of an end-game, and you somehow found a way to make it WORSE.

So to play devil's advocate ... if you are done TRing ... why are you running lower level quests for loot? You don't need low level (or low epic level) loot with a few reaper bonuses.

Mellkor
01-24-2017, 08:53 PM
Can reaper be set up to be skulls + max level of character in the quest instead of a fixed dungeon level?

Tlorrd
01-24-2017, 08:54 PM
The most obvious reasons for the level restriction is because it would make it too easy for characters to farm Reaper and Mythic bonuses on named items from quests, and since Reaper provides additional XP, folks would be overly incentivized to run under-level quests on Reaper, particularly since being significantly overlevel would diminish the challenge the Reaper difficulty provided. Additionally, since the drop rate of named items is higher on Reaper, it would further encourage over-level characters to run under-level quests on Reaper.

If the main reason for wanting the level restriction removed is a wider diversity of quests for top-level characters, would people be happy if we removed the restriction but also removed the XP, Reaper/Mythic bonuses, increased drop rate, and other benefits from an under-level quest being run on Reaper, but otherwise allowed entry? Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.

Remember that Reaper difficulty is not an end game nor specifically high-level activity, but is rather an option through the leveling process.

I am agreed with SSG logic ... reaper was not endgame (although I initially thought like that) ... but keep as is ... if you all do decide to expand level entrance, then take away xp, loot bonuses, etc for over-leveled groups.

My vote is to keep as is. It is supposed to be nightmare mode.

Epicstorms
01-24-2017, 08:58 PM
The most obvious reasons for the level restriction is because it would make it too easy for characters to farm Reaper and Mythic bonuses on named items from quests, and since Reaper provides additional XP, folks would be overly incentivized to run under-level quests on Reaper, particularly since being significantly overlevel would diminish the challenge the Reaper difficulty provided. Additionally, since the drop rate of named items is higher on Reaper, it would further encourage over-level characters to run under-level quests on Reaper.

If the main reason for wanting the level restriction removed is a wider diversity of quests for top-level characters, would people be happy if we removed the restriction but also removed the XP, Reaper/Mythic bonuses, increased drop rate, and other benefits from an under-level quest being run on Reaper, but otherwise allowed entry? Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.

Remember that Reaper difficulty is not an end game nor specifically high-level activity, but is rather an option through the leveling process.

I wonder why we can't have both?

There are plenty of players that like to play at level cap. Reaper is the opportunity to let these players also in on the fun, and this does not.

I understand the above reasoning, but the solution you provide I think would not make things better.
Could it be a good alternative to not only let the XP reduce per level, but also the loot chances?

For example:
Playing at level: 100% XP + 100% Improved loot chances (So full chance on reaper bonuses, 'full' extra chance on named loot, etc)
Playing at +1 level: 100% XP + 100% loot
Playing at +2 level: 100% XP + 100% loot
Playing at +3 level: 75% XP + 80% loot
Playing at +4 level: 50% XP + 60% loot
Playing at +5 level: 25% XP + 40% loot
Playing at +6 level or higher: 0% XP + 40% loot
(Perhaps remove the 40% loot chance if you play heroic quests on an epic toon, so that level capped players can only get improved loot in epic levels, not heroic)

Meaning that you won't get the extra XP (and also no reaper XP) but still 40% of these improved loot chances if you play it overlevel.
This would both encourage players to both play reaper at level, but also has some fun for those at level cap.

Edit: Maybe let the XP cap at 10% XP if you are too highly overleveled if you play in epics. That way every reaper epic quest could still yield a small amount of XP, else you still miss out on a lot of content.

TPICKRELL
01-24-2017, 09:09 PM
I agree with everyone else, this is a horrible last second change that makes reaper much less interesting.

There's only a couple of the 28+ quests that are interesting to run now. The Reaper xp part of this was already handled by the 25percent per level penalty. The items are really not much of an issue. The Reaper and Mythic bonuses on lower level items are to small to magically make them end game gear. And the bonuses are to small to bother farming out for leveling gear.

I don't see any real reason for this change. Reduces the value of the system by 50 or 75 percent in my book.

SirValentine
01-24-2017, 09:13 PM
Characters also cannot enter Reaper dungeons if they are Epic level and the dungeon is not.


So...The Dreaming Dark and The Tower of Despair, for which a level 23 could still get Bravery Bonus on Elite, someone 3 levels lower than that can't run them on Reaper at all? I.e., a level 20 character can't run these level 20 quests on Reaper?

Mr_Helmet
01-24-2017, 09:14 PM
So to play devil's advocate ... if you are done TRing ... why are you running lower level quests for loot? You don't need low level (or low epic level) loot with a few reaper bonuses.

I wouldn't to be honest, but I might want to say 10-skull Chronoscope for run.

Mr_Helmet
01-24-2017, 09:16 PM
The most obvious reasons for the level restriction is because it would make it too easy for characters to farm Reaper and Mythic bonuses on named items from quests, and since Reaper provides additional XP, folks would be overly incentivized to run under-level quests on Reaper, particularly since being significantly overlevel would diminish the challenge the Reaper difficulty provided. Additionally, since the drop rate of named items is higher on Reaper, it would further encourage over-level characters to run under-level quests on Reaper.

If the main reason for wanting the level restriction removed is a wider diversity of quests for top-level characters, would people be happy if we removed the restriction but also removed the XP, Reaper/Mythic bonuses, increased drop rate, and other benefits from an under-level quest being run on Reaper, but otherwise allowed entry? Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.

Remember that Reaper difficulty is not an end game nor specifically high-level activity, but is rather an option through the leveling process.

Sticking with my original statement, this is the worst idea in the history of DDO.

MrWindupBird
01-24-2017, 09:18 PM
The most obvious reasons for the level restriction is because it would make it too easy for characters to farm Reaper and Mythic bonuses on named items from quests, and since Reaper provides additional XP, folks would be overly incentivized to run under-level quests on Reaper, particularly since being significantly overlevel would diminish the challenge the Reaper difficulty provided. Additionally, since the drop rate of named items is higher on Reaper, it would further encourage over-level characters to run under-level quests on Reaper.

If the main reason for wanting the level restriction removed is a wider diversity of quests for top-level characters, would people be happy if we removed the restriction but also removed the XP, Reaper/Mythic bonuses, increased drop rate, and other benefits from an under-level quest being run on Reaper, but otherwise allowed entry? Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.

Remember that Reaper difficulty is not an end game nor specifically high-level activity, but is rather an option through the leveling process.


That's a choice between two really contrived options, but yeah I would choose the open-access version of Reaper without loot.

It's a monumentally bad decision to tightly restrict what quests a capped toon can run on reaper. DDO has a lot of really great content that NEVER GETS RUN. We have a content surplus, and you want to further restrict that? Stuff like Reaper LOB, Reaper WGU, Reaper TOD will absolutely get run at cap as entertainment, which -maybe you are forgetting- is what this game is supposed to be, not a farming simulator.

DDO at cap is boring: I'm bored. LE shroud is fun, and I run Slavers because I want the gear, but that's kind of it. You have the opportunity to re-invigorate these enormous swathes of content, and you want to throw that away? No one will be running Reaper LOB 50+ times like we do with Slavers, but that isn't a disqualification. It will be fun. People having fun makes you money.

I really can't see a compelling reason to prevent open access to Reaper. Loot: I literally can't think of an item that a capped toon wears that comes from a quest lower than lvl28 anyway- maybe an improved deception ring from FOT? Everything comes from Slavers, Shroud, Cannith crafting, MOD or one of the U31 quests- all of which are lvl28 or greater. So, even if overleveled toons were grinding gear (again, why is this a problem?), it wouldnt matter at cap.

Reaper XP can work just like every other source of xp in the game, with an overlevel penalty. Problem solved. I think reaper xp is silly to begin with, but that will be voiced elsewhere.

The only possible rationale I can see for the restriction is a conviction by the developers that Reaper 10 should not be possible, especially solo. Someone posted multiple Reaper10 solos of (cherry-picked, extraordinarily easy even for their lvl) lvl 20-21 reaper10 solos (on a tree build, which is hilariously overpowered). Guess what? With the build flexibility and active combat of this game, someone is always going to do things you dont expect. It's not a big deal. If you want to make Reaper10 harder just on principle, I'm totally fine with that. If you're locking out content from the playerbase because someone was able to solo it with a broken build, maybe don't do that. You can fix the bugs with trees if you want (not a bad idea), but don't lock content because you didn't forsee it being run.

Sam-u-r-eye
01-24-2017, 09:18 PM
The most obvious reasons for the level restriction is because it would make it too easy for characters to farm Reaper and Mythic bonuses on named items from quests, and since Reaper provides additional XP, folks would be overly incentivized to run under-level quests on Reaper, particularly since being significantly overlevel would diminish the challenge the Reaper difficulty provided. Additionally, since the drop rate of named items is higher on Reaper, it would further encourage over-level characters to run under-level quests on Reaper.

If the main reason for wanting the level restriction removed is a wider diversity of quests for top-level characters, would people be happy if we removed the restriction but also removed the XP, Reaper/Mythic bonuses, increased drop rate, and other benefits from an under-level quest being run on Reaper, but otherwise allowed entry? Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.

Remember that Reaper difficulty is not an end game nor specifically high-level activity, but is rather an option through the leveling process.

Yes.

If you can't do it I would rather have people farming low level epics for reaper points than locking capped toons out of CITW, heroic Abbott, etc.

SirValentine
01-24-2017, 09:18 PM
The most obvious reasons for the level restriction is because it would make it too easy for characters to farm Reaper and Mythic bonuses on named items from quests

Why would you care if my level 30 character gets a Reaper Garzad's Helm or something? It still wouldn't be as good as a high-level item.



...rather an option through the leveling process.

And Reaper is for people grinding out TRs, not for people who are already on the build they want to be on? Wow.

Drwaz99
01-24-2017, 09:30 PM
The most obvious reasons for the level restriction is because it would make it too easy for characters to farm Reaper and Mythic bonuses on named items from quests, and since Reaper provides additional XP, folks would be overly incentivized to run under-level quests on Reaper, particularly since being significantly overlevel would diminish the challenge the Reaper difficulty provided. Additionally, since the drop rate of named items is higher on Reaper, it would further encourage over-level characters to run under-level quests on Reaper.

If the main reason for wanting the level restriction removed is a wider diversity of quests for top-level characters, would people be happy if we removed the restriction but also removed the XP, Reaper/Mythic bonuses, increased drop rate, and other benefits from an under-level quest being run on Reaper, but otherwise allowed entry? Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.

Remember that Reaper difficulty is not an end game nor specifically high-level activity, but is rather an option through the leveling process.

This is a shame. So much potential just down the drain.

Compromise: kill the XP, leave the loot. The bonuses are small; I'm sure the drop rate will be just as small for items with bonuses (even R10, they will be quite rare), but you open up hundreds of quests for people at cap to run. We've never been penalized for over level loot farming, why start now? Why exclude so many people from such large swaths of the game? I get you want people on the TR train, that's your bread and butter, but your going to miss a HUGE opportunity to get people who don't want to or are finished TR'ing to come back to the game. With the outlined restrictions, those people stay gone, and I'm not sure SSG can sustain the losses.

You were almost there, then you dropped an anvil on your heads.

Elfishski
01-24-2017, 09:30 PM
The most obvious reasons for the level restriction is because it would make it too easy for characters to farm Reaper and Mythic bonuses on named items from quests, and since Reaper provides additional XP, folks would be overly incentivized to run under-level quests on Reaper, particularly since being significantly overlevel would diminish the challenge the Reaper difficulty provided. Additionally, since the drop rate of named items is higher on Reaper, it would further encourage over-level characters to run under-level quests on Reaper.

If the main reason for wanting the level restriction removed is a wider diversity of quests for top-level characters, would people be happy if we removed the restriction but also removed the XP, Reaper/Mythic bonuses, increased drop rate, and other benefits from an under-level quest being run on Reaper, but otherwise allowed entry? Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.

Remember that Reaper difficulty is not an end game nor specifically high-level activity, but is rather an option through the leveling process.


I think I'd like the second compromise - allow characters to enter any quest on reaper difficulty at any level they could otherwise enter on elite, but don't give any reaper xp, bonus item drops or increased drop rate unless you're within that 2 level range (and show an appropriate warning as per redboxing). It would allow capped groups to run low epic level quests at 8-10 skulls just for fun rather than being locked into just the level 28+ quests so why not?

Xaxx
01-24-2017, 09:32 PM
The most obvious reasons for the level restriction is because it would make it too easy for characters to farm Reaper and Mythic bonuses on named items from quests, and since Reaper provides additional XP, folks would be overly incentivized to run under-level quests on Reaper, particularly since being significantly overlevel would diminish the challenge the Reaper difficulty provided. Additionally, since the drop rate of named items is higher on Reaper, it would further encourage over-level characters to run under-level quests on Reaper.

If the main reason for wanting the level restriction removed is a wider diversity of quests for top-level characters, would people be happy if we removed the restriction but also removed the XP, Reaper/Mythic bonuses, increased drop rate, and other benefits from an under-level quest being run on Reaper, but otherwise allowed entry? Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.

Remember that Reaper difficulty is not an end game nor specifically high-level activity, but is rather an option through the leveling process.


So if I want to hunt a unicorn balizard I have to tr that character because the loot is bound to character not account. I then either have to convince a group of people to go with me or pug reaper (since this is supposed to be the most difficult at level content that REALLY is not a good idea) while leaving that charcter sitting at what 27 the whole time while running the raid every 3 days? This is your idea because someone might reaper up vod for mentau gogs while tring for a few levels.... so your concerned that we'll twink out characters for trs so your forcing us to tr to try for any useful under level reaper gear??? ummm... umm.... isnt that like telling the chicken to crawl back in the egg if it wants to hatch more chickens?

So please tell me what items that you see commonly used at endgame that what your system is now proposing is worth going back for? if this was the idea all along you might as well have simply made reaper for the final like 20 quests of the game and saved a whole lot of trouble.

Oh yes and please cordo and dev crew can you tell me what in the mid 20s is gonna keep casters at level to run citw because I dont know any who are gonna stick around that lev for us to try and farm out reaper weapons if we want them? Do you? Please drop this knowledge of whats gonna keep them there.

JOTMON
01-24-2017, 09:47 PM
The Release Notes have been updated for tonight's Lamannia preview.

Ouch.

based on what I see in the release notes, we are going to lose some more veteran players...

Death effects, including the Warlock Feat Hurl Through Hell and the spell Trap the Soul, are now properly blocked by death wards. These effects will continue to work on undead or monsters who are only protected by their own racial traits, genius, or other effects, but will be specifically blocked by death ward effects. Additionally, Hurl Through Hell now has a spell point cost of 20 Spell Points.


~ Deathward.. Hurl/Devour this is going to hurt these two castings and force build migration to eldritch busters/blasters, and bastardized shiradi's
this screws the niche ability of Hurl..
any Necro/souleater caster type may as well be a wizard/sorc with higher DC's and higher spell pen and a compliment of better spells to cast at deathwarded mobs.
SP cost to a SLA ability... ugh.. its annoying, but whatever...



Enhancements
Human Action Boosts no longer have separate cooldowns from other sources of Action Boosts. They continue to retain a separate number of uses per rest.
Human Action Boost: Damage is now called Human Action Boost: Melee and Ranged Power.

~ way to kill off the human racial option for melee's.
This is probably going to cause some rage quitting from longtime human racial players..



~Reaper Tree's.
Casters win again... +1 DC increments... blows away Melee +1 mp or Defensive +1 prr..

Tlorrd
01-24-2017, 09:59 PM
Ouch.

based on what I see in the release notes, we are going to lose some more veteran players...

Death effects, including the Warlock Feat Hurl Through Hell and the spell Trap the Soul, are now properly blocked by death wards. These effects will continue to work on undead or monsters who are only protected by their own racial traits, genius, or other effects, but will be specifically blocked by death ward effects. Additionally, Hurl Through Hell now has a spell point cost of 20 Spell Points.


~ Deathward.. Hurl/Devour this is going to hurt these two castings and force build migration to eldritch busters/blasters, and bastardized shiradi's
this screws the niche ability of Hurl..
any Necro/souleater caster type may as well be a wizard/sorc with higher DC's and higher spell pen and a compliment of better spells to cast at deathwarded mobs.
SP cost to a SLA ability... ugh.. its annoying, but whatever...



Enhancements
Human Action Boosts no longer have separate cooldowns from other sources of Action Boosts. They continue to retain a separate number of uses per rest.
Human Action Boost: Damage is now called Human Action Boost: Melee and Ranged Power.

~ way to kill off the human racial option for melee's.
This is probably going to cause some rage quitting from longtime human racial players..



~Reaper Tree's.
Casters win again... +1 DC increments... blows away Melee +1 mp or Defensive +1 prr..


you're joking right? (I know you're not) ... but you realize a properly placed globe of inv will negate DW. Just because Hurl which is a death effect actually obeys regular death effect rules, you think vets are going to leave? give me a break. stop the whining and find a way to win. people forever have said the game is too easy and now that some difficulty is introduced which is voluntary mind you, folks are complaining up the wazoo ... go back to EE or LE where you can win easy if your will is this weak.

Cleanincubus
01-24-2017, 10:00 PM
The most obvious reasons for the level restriction is because it would make it too easy for characters to farm Reaper and Mythic bonuses on named items from quests, and since Reaper provides additional XP, folks would be overly incentivized to run under-level quests on Reaper, particularly since being significantly overlevel would diminish the challenge the Reaper difficulty provided.
I'd be fine with being able to play any quest overlevel on Reaper, without a chance for Reaper XP/Survival Points, as well as without a chance for Reaper/Mythic Bonuses on Named Items. But not with the removal of an increased chance at Named Items in general


Additionally, since the drop rate of named items is higher on Reaper, it would further encourage over-level characters to run under-level quests on Reaper.
It would encourage people to actually run older quests though, which is something that has been desperately needed for years.

Something that has also been asked for over the years is a drop rate increase for Named Items. Adding one, and then at the last minute changing it, is like buying a box of cookies at the store, getting home and finding out they are oatmeal raisin instead of really amazing chocolate chip ones. You still have cookies, but they taste like cardboard.

This is an absolute "selling point" for me, to run Reaper at all. If it's not included, along with no level lockout, it's a deal breaker for me personally.


Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.
Group member level differences should be treated as they are in-game now, when it comes to Reaper mode. This is something that should have already been put in place during development.

nayozz
01-24-2017, 10:09 PM
not convinced by reaper... but like 1 new free quest.

still hoping for revised fvs/cleric/druid/artificier trees

Tlorrd
01-24-2017, 10:14 PM
~Reaper Tree's.
Casters win again... +1 DC increments... blows away Melee +1 mp or Defensive +1 prr..

Max PRR from tank tree is 54 (with 30 sec boost)

Max DC is 13 (with 30 sec boost and outside of stat boost)

Reaper 10 is supposed to have like +10 to saves for mobs ... how much PRR do you want added?? 100? 200?

Wongar
01-24-2017, 10:22 PM
The most obvious reasons for the level restriction is because it would make it too easy for characters to farm Reaper and Mythic bonuses on named items from quests, and since Reaper provides additional XP, folks would be overly incentivized to run under-level quests on Reaper, particularly since being significantly overlevel would diminish the challenge the Reaper difficulty provided. Additionally, since the drop rate of named items is higher on Reaper, it would further encourage over-level characters to run under-level quests on Reaper.

If the main reason for wanting the level restriction removed is a wider diversity of quests for top-level characters, would people be happy if we removed the restriction but also removed the XP, Reaper/Mythic bonuses, increased drop rate, and other benefits from an under-level quest being run on Reaper, but otherwise allowed entry? Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.

Remember that Reaper difficulty is not an end game nor specifically high-level activity, but is rather an option through the leveling process.

I would absolutely prefer this to not being able to run quests. I have done the TR thing till I have every possible past life I could ever want. I "finished" my main almost a year ago and all but quit playing because there was just not much to do. When I learned of Reaper, I came back excited that there would be some new challenge. I did a meaningless TR to rebuild my main as a tank and started farming for all the relevant capped loot I wanted expecting to be able to stay at cap and have fun running all epic quests at a challenging level. I don't care about Reaper XP or more small bonuses to items, I'd prefer they didn't even exist. I want to have fun with what I have now before I worry about getting more ubber.

There are simply not enough level 28+ quests to keep from getting bored. While it may not be an achievement to run Breaking the Ranks, TOR, or Precious Cargo on a capped toon - I'd still like to give it a go at something more than a sleepwalk difficulty when capped.

Cordovan
01-24-2017, 10:22 PM
I recognize that level 30 characters are not necessarily wearing low-level named loot, but I'm well aware that people collect gear for leveling, either for Alts for for True Reincarnation, and the large number of characters with full banks of named gear sort of proves that point. Ultimately, without the level restriction, we'd be overly incentivizing sitting at level cap and farming under-level Reaper quests, which is both undesired gameplay in addition to going against the very purpose of Reaper Difficulty to begin with.

Mr_Helmet
01-24-2017, 10:25 PM
. . . very purpose of Reaper Difficulty to begin with.

So what the heck is the purpose of Reaper? I sure as heck can't figure it out.

besides infuriating your players.

irnimnode
01-24-2017, 10:25 PM
So is Lamannia going to open tonight or not?

Mr_Helmet
01-24-2017, 10:26 PM
I recognize that level 30 characters are not necessarily wearing low-level named loot, but I'm well aware that people collect gear for leveling, either for Alts for for True Reincarnation, and the large number of characters with full banks of named gear sort of proves that point.

So what? Why does this matter?

You want to make less money from chest re-rolls? Are you that flush with cash these days?

Cordovan
01-24-2017, 10:27 PM
So what the heck is the purpose of Reaper? I sure as heck can't figure it out.

besides infuriating your players.

The main purpose of Reaper is to provide an exceptional challenge to players looking for it.

Gleep_Wurp
01-24-2017, 10:30 PM
Yes, that's how it works. If the base CR of the quest is more than 2 lower than your character level you can not enter the quest on Reaper difficulty.

i really didn't have much interest in reaper and now i have even less. dirks was fun on a capped toon at 10 skulls...i play to have fun, if i want to socialize i go to a bar during beaver season.

jakeelala
01-24-2017, 10:32 PM
The main purpose of Reaper is to provide an exceptional challenge to players looking for it.

You dont have a single person on these forums agreeing with your logic (which is rare for everyone to agree) re: level limits for Reaper content.

I heartily suggest you revisit your decision making here and find a better compromise.

Ryethiel
01-24-2017, 10:33 PM
*Snip*

Hmm... Well, for starters, I do think it's silly that a quest like What Goes Up, which is Level 27 base on Epic, just suddenly go from full Reaper exp, to zip zero just like that, because a player went from level 29 to 30.

I think the idea of a gradual decline per over level sounds reasonable. Exact numbers could be discussed.

Mr_Helmet
01-24-2017, 10:34 PM
The main purpose of Reaper is to provide an exceptional challenge to players looking for it.

The vast majority of which are looking for this at end-game. The number of people I know looking for "challenge" while leveling I can count on 1 hand - and most of them I don't believe.

Xaxx
01-24-2017, 10:38 PM
I recognize that level 30 characters are not necessarily wearing low-level named loot, but I'm well aware that people collect gear for leveling, either for Alts for for True Reincarnation, and the large number of characters with full banks of named gear sort of proves that point. Ultimately, without the level restriction, we'd be overly incentivizing sitting at level cap and farming under-level Reaper quests, which is both undesired gameplay in addition to going against the very purpose of Reaper Difficulty to begin with.

So we're going to put in extra time on our 30s to shave off a little bit of time on trs? Because of this you've made most of reaper kinda not gonna be used outside of the last 20 odd quests because what percentage of trips into reaper are gonna be sub level 30... 10%... maybe... and I think I'm being HIGHLY generous there. Sorry cordo the logic still really dont fly in the long run.

JOTMON
01-24-2017, 10:38 PM
you're joking right? (I know you're not) ... but you realize a properly placed globe of inv will negate DW. Just because Hurl which is a death effect actually obeys regular death effect rules, you think vets are going to leave? give me a break. stop the whining and find a way to win. people forever have said the game is too easy and now that some difficulty is introduced which is voluntary mind you, folks are complaining up the wazoo ... go back to EE or LE where you can win easy if your will is this weak.

after ignoring your personal attack and harassment portion of the response....


I was discussing aspects of the release notes..
The players leaving the game is a consolidation of comments within the release notes not hurl..

like..
~the Reaper lockdown to within 2 levels of base quest level.. that leaves little for endgame players to actually play..
a level 30 player cannot now go into von5 reaper mode, but still can on Epic..
This leaves High level players stuck with the same old content.. the same players who want more endgame content not low level reaper stuff.

~Human race changes to boosts.. lot of unhappy players here...





The Hurl deathward change was going to be 'annoying'.. not quit worthy..

as to Globe of Invulnerability..Globes also screw over party member attacking the mobs where the globe is... supressing player buffs including their own defensive wards while also causing lag ..
so globe is generally not a viable tactic, I would think less so for Reaper where everyone wants their buffs, boosts to be at their best...

The_Human_Cypher
01-24-2017, 10:43 PM
Lamannia is not available at nearly midnight EST.

JOTMON
01-24-2017, 10:48 PM
The main purpose of Reaper is to provide an exceptional challenge to players looking for it.

huh, Who knew levelling toons were looking for 'at level' exceptional challenge and not wanting to run higher level content and difficulty to challenge themselves.

I thought it was the capped players who have already run all the TR/ITR/ER lives they can handle who wanted exceptional challenge content for their tweaked and optimized toons.
you know.. something to build towards endgame....

EllisDee37
01-24-2017, 10:52 PM
Remember that Reaper difficulty is not an end game nor specifically high-level activity, but is rather an option through the leveling process.This is the key mistake.

I'm not even an endgame player and I think it's nuts that you guys spent all this time and effort on reaper mode and it isn't an endgame. It absolutely should be. I don't see any value from heroic reaper. If you made ALL quests effective level 30 when running reaper, then 1 to 10 skulls increases from there, then I'd say bravo even though I would likely never set foot in any of them.

Or to put it another way: I'm not an endgame guy, I'm a tr guy. And I think reaper should be changed from a tr system to an endgame-only system.

GeoffWatson
01-24-2017, 10:54 PM
Some questions about Reaper XP/Enhancement trees:

How much Reaper XP do you get, compared with how much you need?
Is Reaper XP increased by XP bonuses like Voice, VIP, tomes of learning?
Do Reaper trees/Survival points persist through TRing like Epic Destinies, or are they lost?

irnimnode
01-24-2017, 10:56 PM
Estimated time of opening of Lamannia would be?

JOTMON
01-24-2017, 10:58 PM
I recognize that level 30 characters are not necessarily wearing low-level named loot, but I'm well aware that people collect gear for leveling, either for Alts for for True Reincarnation, and the large number of characters with full banks of named gear sort of proves that point. Ultimately, without the level restriction, we'd be overly incentivizing sitting at level cap and farming under-level Reaper quests, which is both undesired gameplay in addition to going against the very purpose of Reaper Difficulty to begin with.

I would actually think this kind of farming would be more desirable..
Those players that cant get the gear at level would go back and get it as a over level toon for future life considerations..

It has bee the historical trend..
If I want some heroic gear that I don't already have on my high level toon , I would go solo farm with an open lfm for joiners to farm specific items.
especially if I am considering TR'ing into that toon or am prepping an alt toon for a specific life.

Getting it at level tends to be more competitive since generally more players in the same at level group are interested in the same items for themselves or alts.. meaning higher chance of lost rolls.

Locking the over level players out may force desirability for at level groups.. or more likely result in players opting to skip.. its not must have gear and still takes up limited inventory space for a small level range.

Sam-u-r-eye
01-24-2017, 11:05 PM
I recognize that level 30 characters are not necessarily wearing low-level named loot, but I'm well aware that people collect gear for leveling, either for Alts for for True Reincarnation, and the large number of characters with full banks of named gear sort of proves that point. Ultimately, without the level restriction, we'd be overly incentivizing sitting at level cap and farming under-level Reaper quests, which is both undesired gameplay in addition to going against the very purpose of Reaper Difficulty to begin with.

The best part of reaper is the challenge. Don't make this about the loot. We would rather have you delete the loot. That's how your serious gamers feel. 100% in this thread!! We want an appropriate challenge and the loot is a side-benefit.

Closing off stormhorns to lvl 30 toons on reaper would is silly. Closing off Heroic Abbott to a level 30 toon who wants to solo it is silly. See what I mean kinda? The strength of the system is in its flexibility and it already is that.

This is about achievement and silliness! Not chaser items. We love what you guys did with slave lords---except that it offered little in the way of achievement. Great pack---well designed encounters---fun stuff.

None of the proposed loot bonuses outclass a heroic slavers set introduced in the last pack---or Cannith Crafted Gear available at level 20.
All old named items are basically defunct ATM, and even with a "Holy Grail" roll of 6 PRR or 6 MP you're not going to outclass a lvl 20 equivalent.

If you guys can't make chests stop opening due to an over-level penalty then I would just let the point you're making go. Not that you're wrong. Just that you're throwing the Baby out with the Bath water according to everyone in this thread....

This difficulty should NOT BE ABOUT LOOT.

Silverleafeon
01-24-2017, 11:10 PM
The most obvious reasons for the level restriction is because it would make it too easy for characters to farm Reaper and Mythic bonuses on named items from quests,

Yes, I can see that concern.

However, one can farm out heroic greensteel for TRing purposes as well.
So we already have many methods of farming out twink gear.

How powerful will these new weapons be compared to their counterparts?


and since Reaper provides additional XP, folks would be overly incentivized to run under-level quests on Reaper, particularly since being significantly overlevel would diminish the challenge the Reaper difficulty provided.

Ok, you have a very valid point there, it could change what quests are farmed greatly.
So, definitely there should be a serious xp hit for overlevel on quests.
We do already have an overlevel xp penalty, but I can say that first time elite with an iconic, its definitely worth doing Vons on heroic elite (if you don't mind the epic xp loss) despite the overlevel penalty.

So reaper would definitely compound this problem.



Additionally, since the drop rate of named items is higher on Reaper, it would further encourage over-level characters to run under-level quests on Reaper.

Ok, I could see it upsetting balance issues if the drop rates are greatly increased.
You have a point there, and I would prefer not cutting back on reaper at level drop rates.


If the main reason for wanting the level restriction removed is a wider diversity of quests for top-level characters, would people be happy if we removed the restriction but also removed the XP, Reaper/Mythic bonuses, increased drop rate, and other benefits from an under-level quest being run on Reaper, but otherwise allowed entry?

I would take that compromise if possible.

Part of reaper is not the rewards its the ability to adjust challenge levels!



Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.

I understand, and its up the leader to keep track of such, but you might need a warning in the xp box advising players when this happens.
Perhaps even a pop up box that "Reaper Rewards are deactivated due to overlevel player.



I would offer a compromise of a formula like Overlevel Rewards = {Rewards} * {1/ {{Highest Player Level} - (Base Dungeon Level+2}} ^ 5}



Remember that Reaper difficulty is not an end game nor specifically high-level activity, but is rather an option through the leveling process.

Wrong.

Part of reaper is not the rewards its the ability to adjust challenge levels!

JOTMON
01-24-2017, 11:10 PM
Max PRR from tank tree is 54 (with 30 sec boost)

Max DC is 13 (with 30 sec boost and outside of stat boost)

Reaper 10 is supposed to have like +10 to saves for mobs ... how much PRR do you want added?? 100? 200?


That's more in the range of what players will need for survivability, getting one-shotted for 5k in reaper with 100 PRR on any non-tank build..

if a choice has to be made its still going to DPS and spell DC's
13 DC to CC or an insta-kill will likely keep players from getting killed by trash mobs.
More DPs kills mobs faster.. and in reaper mobs need to die faster before they have a chance to wipe party members.

adding 50 PRR by heavily investing in the defensive tree isn't going to help survivability in any meaningful way.

nayozz
01-24-2017, 11:13 PM
what about not locking players out of reaper quests... give them no xp, no extra loot...

but give them xp and loot as a bravery bonus (max base quest level +2 for heroic) and (max base quest level +4 for epic)



this way: a lvl 30 playing lord of dust reaper gets no extra xp no loot
a level 28 playing gianthold epic gets extra xp extra loot

a level 12 player playing scyros jewel reaper gets extra xp extra loot
a level 18 player playing scyros jewel reaper gets no extra xp no extra loot

jakeelala
01-24-2017, 11:16 PM
The main purpose of Reaper is to provide an exceptional challenge to players looking for it.

I will say that the more I think about this, the more I think there is a compromise here that will make everyone happy.

Compromise Part 1:
I never thought about a leveling challenge would be something desirable. But if you have all the best gear and you've TR'd a lot, if there's better items to acquire in the process and more XP for the effort, I could see people doing Reaper TR's, maybe in groups, just like a lot of people do elite streak bravery lives. They are harder and take longer but the XP is worth it. But for many they are still easy. Reaper at level during TR could be a good way to entertain end gamer's doing TR's with small carrots in the form of reaper bonus'ed items.

Aside on Rewards:
I do honestly think however the entire idea of Reaper trees and rewards are sort of dumb. I would much rather see you guys create a comprehensive system for grinding out materials at all levels of play but most especially Reaper that would allow crafting on old named items to bring them up to end game levels of power, retaining some of their unique abilities and character (like old raid items, etc.). This could be accomplished by massively increasing the boosts that Reaper bonus items can get. If you think about a weapon like Chaosblade, it needs far more than +3 Reaper bonus to be end game usable. I should be able to run a level 30 eADQ, 10 Skull, and get a +15 Reaper Bonus Chaosblade (making it a +21 weapon) and maybe up to +10 Mythic.

Compromise Part 2:
Their must be a way to allow a level 30 to play Reaper mode on a classic raid like Titan. My dream is a 10skull Titan raid at level 30. There must be a way to scale quests based on character level so that if the Character is level 30, and the quest is 20, you double the Reaper difficulty mod values (damage and healing reduced, etc). I want to 10 skull a level 30 WW2 trying to keep Arlos alive. But XP can't be the only carrot.

Morroiel
01-24-2017, 11:17 PM
you're joking right? (I know you're not) ... but you realize a properly placed globe of inv will negate DW. Just because Hurl which is a death effect actually obeys regular death effect rules, you think vets are going to leave? give me a break. stop the whining and find a way to win. people forever have said the game is too easy and now that some difficulty is introduced which is voluntary mind you, folks are complaining up the wazoo ... go back to EE or LE where you can win easy if your will is this weak.

No offense but stop commenting if you don't grasp a full understanding of the game mechanics. If you believe death effects should obey regular death effect rules, always: ein and prismatic violet rays should too, no? I mean prismatic ray is a 2.5 sec cd on a sorc, it is by all means spammable and at a much higher dc than warlock's hurl. With the added bumps to sorc spell pen and dcs from the new reaper trees, they might even be fully viable dc casters now: necro, enchant, and evo.

Btw telling people to cast globe - what 5th level spell do you suggest they give up? hmmm? finger? circle of death? or are you saying scroll it because we know that works so well in the heat of combat in LE shroud? OFc you can always use the staff of arcane power clicky but that only has so many charges.

Heat death and hurl are effectively the same ability lore wise - they just haven't gone back and fixed heat death. Hurl isn't even supposed to be keyed to necro. It's arguably a conjuration spell or an evocation spell in the likes of teleport or bigpys magic hand. You are sending somebody through the layers of hell such that they take damage and die.

Again, I standby a statement wizza/farwil said a longwhile back: "if you don't know anything about what you're talking about, shut up please".

Cetus
01-24-2017, 11:17 PM
Well, that's great. You guys really know how to snuff out the excitement of an initially attractive update.

This boost stacking change is an insult.

Silverleafeon
01-24-2017, 11:20 PM
The best part of reaper is the challenge. Don't make this about the loot. We would rather have you delete the loot. That's how your serious gamers feel. 100% in this thread!! We want an appropriate challenge and the loot is a side-benefit.

Closing off stormhorns to lvl 30 toons on reaper would is silly. Closing off Heroic Abbott to a level 30 toon who wants to solo it is silly. See what I mean kinda? The strength of the system is in its flexibility and it already is that.

This is about achievement and silliness! Not chaser items. We love what you guys did with slave lords---except that it offered little in the way of achievement. Great pack---well designed encounters---fun stuff.

None of the proposed loot bonuses outclass a heroic slavers set introduced in the last pack---or Cannith Crafted Gear available at level 20.
All old named items are basically defunct ATM, and even with a "Holy Grail" roll of 6 PRR or 6 MP you're not going to outclass a lvl 20 equivalent.

If you guys can't make chests stop opening due to an over-level penalty then I would just let the point you're making go. Not that you're wrong. Just that you're throwing the Baby out with the Bath water according to everyone in this thread....

This difficulty should NOT BE ABOUT LOOT.

+1
Well said.


Honestly, the first thing I will do when Reaper comes out is go solo some really low level Korthos type stuff just for the Fun of the game.

And I know some players will be doing Raid Trains and asking how many skulls should we do this on?

PLEASE let us enter Reaper (rewards or not) on every dungeon in DDO...


Otherwise, its time for:

http://i3.cpcache.com/product/311370749/pitchfork_and_torch_35_button_10_pack.jpg?height=4 60&width=460&qv=90

Morroiel
01-24-2017, 11:21 PM
snip

I don't know they already seem to be rewarding people for running reaper below cap by giving the extra tier of xp (+120% I believe or w/e it is).

Morroiel
01-24-2017, 11:22 PM
Well, that's great. You guys really know how to snuff out the excitement of an initially attractive update.

This boost stacking change is an insult.

I agree on the excitement killing.

The boost change however was needed. I'm happy they are on separate timers still at least. At least now there's a reason to play other races, and it gives them room to finally mess with the race enhancement trees.

Silverleafeon
01-24-2017, 11:28 PM
Do Reaper trees/Survival points persist through TRing like Epic Destinies, or are they lost?

This is an excellent question that should be looked at closely.

I would prefer persistence along with greatly increased costs.
That would grant players a feeling of something to do at level cap.

MrWindupBird
01-24-2017, 11:28 PM
The best part of reaper is the challenge. Don't make this about the loot. We would rather have you delete the loot. That's how your serious gamers feel. 100% in this thread!! We want an appropriate challenge and the loot is a side-benefit.

Closing off stormhorns to lvl 30 toons on reaper would is silly. Closing off Heroic Abbott to a level 30 toon who wants to solo it is silly. See what I mean kinda? The strength of the system is in its flexibility and it already is that.

This is about achievement and silliness! Not chaser items. We love what you guys did with slave lords---except that it offered little in the way of achievement. Great pack---well designed encounters---fun stuff.

None of the proposed loot bonuses outclass a heroic slavers set introduced in the last pack---or Cannith Crafted Gear available at level 20.
All old named items are basically defunct ATM, and even with a "Holy Grail" roll of 6 PRR or 6 MP you're not going to outclass a lvl 20 equivalent.

If you guys can't make chests stop opening due to an over-level penalty then I would just let the point you're making go. Not that you're wrong. Just that you're throwing the Baby out with the Bath water according to everyone in this thread....

This difficulty should NOT BE ABOUT LOOT.


+1

When I and others who play at cap are clamoring for the ability to run reaper ToD, LoB, Stormhorns, etc it isn't because we want any item from there (it's all vendor trash now anyway), but because it would be fun.

Gratch
01-24-2017, 11:31 PM
I'm also feeling locking out higher level toons from reaper is bogus.
Remove XP as it is removed currently for overleveled toons or faster... don't really care about xp for this case.
Remove item bonuses for characters more than 2 levels above heroic quests and 5 levels above epic quests if you must do this.
But don't lock anyone out of your new mode. Or at least show us Steelstar's foot that you have shot prior to releasing the update with this change.

Silverleafeon
01-24-2017, 11:32 PM
IAt least now there's a reason to play other races, and it gives them room to finally mess with the race enhancement trees.

Yes, the very first player council suggested that Racial Trees overall were very expensive and only a few of them were even worth considering.

Glad to hear they might actually balance.

Although +1 feat & +1 skill points seems to make a very strong race without any points spent in a racial tree.

Silverleafeon
01-24-2017, 11:33 PM
+1

When I and others who play at cap are clamoring for the ability to run reaper ToD, LoB, Stormhorns, etc it isn't because we want any item from there (it's all vendor trash now anyway), but because it would be fun.

+1 well said!

FCofKhatovar
01-24-2017, 11:35 PM
I recognize that level 30 characters are not necessarily wearing low-level named loot, but I'm well aware that people collect gear for leveling, either for Alts for for True Reincarnation, and the large number of characters with full banks of named gear sort of proves that point. Ultimately, without the level restriction, we'd be overly incentivizing sitting at level cap and farming under-level Reaper quests, which is both undesired gameplay in addition to going against the very purpose of Reaper Difficulty to begin with.

So, how about a reduced chance to pull said named loot for each level over the quest, past 2, that a character is? Locking my capped, finished toon out of reaper mode for most content in the game, is going to suck. That said, I wouldn't even want the named loot in them, leveling is too easy already. I don't need a mythic/reaper bonus on anything I'd pull out of <28 quests, but, I'd like the opportunity to do those quests, if I want. Maybe an entire party gets the loot-nerf, along with a reaper xp nerf, based on the highest level player in the party?

Blastyswa
01-24-2017, 11:38 PM
The main purpose of Reaper is to provide an exceptional challenge to players looking for it.

A few reasons for and against level gating:

Against:
1. Grinding for example a full set of mythic/reaper heroic slavers gear including a +2 stats executioner's helm might help at level 8, but by about level 15, and definitely by about level 20 that gear is no longer the best you can have for the level. Exceptional challenge remains at higher levels, and in fact +30 PRR/MRR/MP and +2 to all stats, while a significant power increase, isn't going to trivialize Reaper 10 heroic at level slavers.
2. Limits the number of quests that can be played. For example, level 30 characters not being able to run many epic quests. Personally my recommended fix on that, if gating is retained, would be to allow epic players (level 20-30) to be able to play any epic quest with no penalty, just not heroic quests.
3. Gets rid of the ability to play raids that will still be difficult as level 30's on reaper 10 if they aren't in that level range. The only raids a level 30 would be able to do under an absolute gating system would be Legendary raids (of which there are 3), Thunderholme raids (of which there are two), Mark of Death, and Defiler of the Just, for a total of 7 out of 24 raids.
4. Twinking has been in the game, and in fact in most games, ever since shared storage was invented. With greensteel (Significantly easier to solo/shortman an elite shroud at level 30 nowadays than to try and find an EBB group at level 19), heroic slavers (Easier to grind at 30), and past lives themselves, I personally don't see too much problem with an additional few points of PRR/MRR and +2 stats.
5. My assumption was that reaper xp would be scaled down for running underlevel quests like normal xp is, or perhaps even more harshly. Gear in the past has not really been reduced by running quests overlevel (Exclusion: remnants, if we're counting that as gear because it can purchase gear) although xp has been, meaning this would be setting a new precedent.
6. A formula could be written that makes it so players who enter quests dramatically overlevel have the drop rates of the items scaled down to a minimum of the rate on elite. This formula could be (% chance of item dropping= (Elite Base x (Reaper Difficulty-levels over level on elite))). So running heroic Reaper 10 Memoirs of an illusory larceny on heroic on a level 15 would provide the 50% drop rate (Spitballing numbers) at level reaper 10, while running that same thing on any character level 24 or above provides the elite 5% drop rate. This also means that any level 30 running base level 20 or above quests (Elite level 22) gains some degree of drop rate increase, while running a level 18 quest (21 elite) or below gives normal elite drop rates.

For:
Ok nevermind, I actually was planning to do some fors but I've realized I'm against it, and it's not worth putting in the time to dig up counter-arguments that supporters of the gating mechanism can do.

EllisDee37
01-24-2017, 11:43 PM
The boost change however was needed. I'm happy they are on separate timers still at least. At least now there's a reason to play other races, and it gives them room to finally mess with the race enhancement trees.They are not still on separate timers.

Silverleafeon
01-24-2017, 11:47 PM
A few reasons for and against level gating:

Against:

1. Grinding for example a full set of mythic/reaper heroic slavers gear including a +2 stats executioner's helm might help at level 8, but by about level 15, and definitely by about level 20 that gear is no longer the best you can have for the level. Exceptional challenge remains at higher levels, and in fact +30 PRR/MRR/MP and +2 to all stats, while a significant power increase, isn't going to trivialize Reaper 10 heroic at level slavers.

2. Limits the number of quests that can be played. For example, level 30 characters not being able to run many epic quests. Personally my recommended fix on that, if gating is retained, would be to allow epic players (level 20-30) to be able to play any epic quest with no penalty, just not heroic quests.

3. Gets rid of the ability to play raids that will still be difficult as level 30's on reaper 10 if they aren't in that level range. The only raids a level 30 would be able to do under an absolute gating system would be Legendary raids (of which there are 3), Thunderholme raids (of which there are two), Mark of Death, and Defiler of the Just, for a total of 7 out of 24 raids.

4. Twinking has been in the game, and in fact in most games, ever since shared storage was invented. With greensteel (Significantly easier to solo/shortman an elite shroud at level 30 nowadays than to try and find an EBB group at level 19), heroic slavers (Easier to grind at 30), and past lives themselves, I personally don't see too much problem with an additional few points of PRR/MRR and +2 stats.

5. My assumption was that reaper xp would be scaled down for running underlevel quests like normal xp is, or perhaps even more harshly. Gear in the past has not really been reduced by running quests overlevel (Exclusion: remnants, if we're counting that as gear because it can purchase gear) although xp has been, meaning this would be setting a new precedent.

6. A formula could be written that makes it so players who enter quests dramatically overlevel have the drop rates of the items scaled down to a minimum of the rate on elite. This formula could be (% chance of item dropping= (Elite Base x (Reaper Difficulty-levels over level on elite))). So running heroic Reaper 10 Memoirs of an illusory larceny on heroic on a level 15 would provide the 50% drop rate (Spitballing numbers) at level reaper 10, while running that same thing on any character level 24 or above provides the elite 5% drop rate. This also means that any level 30 running base level 20 or above quests (Elite level 22) gains some degree of drop rate increase, while running a level 18 quest (21 elite) or below gives normal elite drop rates.


For:

Ok nevermind, I actually was planning to do some fors but I've realized I'm against it, and it's not worth putting in the time to dig up counter-arguments that supporters of the gating mechanism can do.

+1 well said

Time for a sanity check Devs.
Rethink and yes thank you Cordovan for the quick compromise which is fairly acceptable .

Silverleafeon
01-24-2017, 11:48 PM
Question:

Can warlocks still hurl the Leg Shroud Crystal in Part 2?

Silverleafeon
01-24-2017, 11:53 PM
The main purpose of Reaper is to provide an exceptional challenge to players looking for it.

Well then you have your own answer.

In your very own words, you just gave reason to not block overlevel toons.

We need to be able to use Reaper to make any dungeon we wish to enjoy more challenging than it already is.

Including unique dungeons and raids that would take a very long time to upgrade by recreating a decade of dungeons.

Now if you want to introduce TEN new raids in 2017, then maybe Reaper Block is good idea, otherwise...

Morroiel
01-24-2017, 11:57 PM
Combat
Death effects, including the Warlock Feat Hurl Through Hell and the spell Trap the Soul, are now properly blocked by death wards. These effects will continue to work on undead or monsters who are only protected by their own racial traits, genius, or other effects, but will be specifically blocked by death ward effects. Additionally, Hurl Through Hell now has a spell point cost of 20 Spell Points.
Before you misjudge me because of the warlock build in my signature. You should be easily able to pull up my toons on live. While I used to play a lock, I am not currently playing a lock nor do I have plans on playing one in the near future. I am arguably one of most experience fiend/hurl warlock players in the game at the moment. That is not me bragging. It is fact, and I bring it up so as to bring credibility to my argument. Is it deathward or deathblock that these spells no longer bypass? Did everything is nothing, prismatic spray/ray (green and violet), devour the soul, and void strike on critical get similar treatments? Or do you just hate dc fiend warlocks? Are you basing this off of sam's comments? Why the 20 spell point cost? Are you considering Hurl through Hell an actual spell like ability now? Those are my questions. These are my scenarios that I want you to consider:

Scenario A:
1) You leave the hurl with the changes to death ward you just put through.
2) All those DC locks that you hate either switch to fey locks or dc sorcs (if prismatic ray/spray havent been similarly nerfed)

Scenario B:
1) You leave hurl nerfed but you give compensatory buffs and treat it like an actual sla: i.e. focus feats, enlarge, quicken work now. (IF YOU MAKE IT COST SP, METAS HAVE TO BE APPLICABLE - PERIOD)
2) Greater diversity of dc casters as there's actually a decision to be made and fiend warlocks dont feel like you directly screwed them over (ESPECIALLY THE PLAYERS WHO DIDNT WANT REAPER IN THE FIRST PLACE - which you promised wouldnt impact the non-reaper game)

Scenario C:
1) You undo the nerf to hurl, and nerf it in a different way. Might I suggest a reaper specific champion buff, dimensional anchor - maybe even attached to deathward. Think idk some fancy name compilation that I'm not good at doing. dim anchor + deathward -> replace with deathward on some of the reaper champs but not all. AND of course still fix devour the soul. This dimensional anchor should ofc also block violet prismatic ray, void strike, and everything is nothing.
2) Casual gamers don't hate you. Generally people don't hate you. Also, it fixes your issue with hurl being "apparently too op in reaper" though I honestly don't believe it. While also giving you a lever to control the % of champs with this buff in the future to make it harder or easier for people with hurl.


Reaper Level Entrance Changes
sorry if it seems like an echo chamber but this needs to go away somehow someway. Whatever you can justify it. I dont give a rats arse about leveling reaper content. None of my friends or guildmates level for fun anymore. I only level for changing a build out, and when I do it its torturous boredom. My suggestion - allow all characters into reaper levels 1-30. Dial all of them up to 11. Korthos island should hit as hard as shroud. Now certainly korthos will end up being easier and run less than shroud simply because its shorter the game mechanics are simpler but you get my point. Or maybe break it down like another poster said: 3-4 base level range + 2*(skulls) - with the exception of raids, double it. I was looking forward to running abbot on 10 skull. If you have to make it so we cant get gear. To be honest I dont think thats going to be an issue - gear power creep from cannith crafting is already OP.

Enhancements
Great Changes - lets non humans compete for non-casters/non throwers/monkchers

Epic Destinies
I've been waiting for this since epic destinies came out. Please keep on doing this for more abilities with each update till all the epic spells' dcs are fixed

Reaper Enhancements
I really like the caster clicky for mana efficiency. That's about it. I think cool abilities that can only be used in reaper that are "utility or unique" would be best. Don't give me a bunch of power creep stat boosts imo. There's +15 spell pen for instance. I'd much rather have an option to freeze a red name for 1 second or something silly like that. Nothing broken but something broken and unique. Stat boosts are just going to lead to better builds / easier content which is going to outdate reaper 10 faster.

Morroiel
01-24-2017, 11:59 PM
Question:

Can warlocks still hurl the Leg Shroud Crystal in Part 2?

Depends - I think they will be able to as I think the Leg shroud part 2 crystal is actually flagged as a normal mob (yellow name). Provided it doesnt get a rando champ crown and get a deathward buff (which I have seen before provided it was on lamm).

Morroiel
01-25-2017, 12:01 AM
They are not still on separate timers.

LMAO i need to get my eyes checked. Well this is what I thought they were going to do in the first place. So its not surprising. O well. I'd argue human isn't king anymore.

Mandelia
01-25-2017, 12:03 AM
Ok, So I spent 2-3 years creating a triple-triple-triple completionist. I got bored. I had to stop playing for awhile because my father got sick and died, but I heard about this 'Reaper' thing, and thought hey FINALLY AN ENDGAME, so I came back. I have been preparing my capped character for this mode since my return with renewed excitement. Well, this just killed every bit of that. You guys have no idea what it is like to put that much effort into creating a complete character and sit around for months. You seem to think we want only to play SLAVERS a bajillion times and lose braincells and sleep for all the shoddy droprates.

This is a HUGE mistake.

Gleep_Wurp
01-25-2017, 12:11 AM
looks like another failure. "unable to decrypt and deserialize the data downloaded from the server" . your test kung foo is very very weak. maybe hire a real test tech who understands D.O.E. . don't know what that is? maybe that's part of the problem.

the_one_dwarfforged
01-25-2017, 12:13 AM
The main purpose of Reaper is to provide an exceptional challenge to players looking for it.

the players looking for it are at lvl 30. the more you know.

Kebtid
01-25-2017, 12:16 AM
You guys have no idea what our concerns are or what we ask you guys for.

Fixing bugs and non intended mechanics is ok, human boost and hurl had to go, i see no adjustments to other instakill abilities like mortal,ender, prismatics or ooze bug.
/hate the human boost change but i accept it if it was overperforming

But you guys clearly have no idea how your game works if you plan to add 13 dc to the caster reaper tree and all that spell penetration, players dont even need the full dc and can now get nuking feats with that very logical buff for dc casters that did NOT NEED it.
Sigh

Just saying..

Not gonna step into the breath change to allow it to be fully metad.
I mean, cmon guys you cant be serious.

I dont dislike the overlevel lockout but keep it as it is, heroic lockout with base level max and epic has no lockout.

Morroiel
01-25-2017, 12:21 AM
You guys have no idea what our concerns are or what we ask you guys for.

Fixing bugs and non intended mechanics is ok, human boost and hurl had to go, i see no adjustments to other instakill abilities like mortal,ender, prismatics or ooze bug.
/hate the human boost change but i accept it if it was overperforming

But you guys clearly have no idea how your game works if you plan to add 13 dc to the caster reaper tree and all that spell penetration, players dont even need the full dc and can now get nuking feats with that very logical buff for dc casters that NEEDED it.
Sigh

Just saying..

Not gonna step into the breath change to allow it to be fully metad.
I mean, cmon guys you cant be serious.

I dont dislike the overlevel lockout but keep it as it is, heroic lockout with base level max and epic has no lockout.

draconic incarnation has been needing buffs for a while.... theres a reason every good sorc on every server runs in EA

Kebtid
01-25-2017, 12:35 AM
draconic incarnation has been needing buffs for a while.... theres a reason every good sorc on every server runs in EA

Sorc players that want maximum efficiency swaped to warlocks years ago.
Why?
More dc, more defense, more damage.

I see rarely sorc players in powergamers community and if i see one its a shiradi thing.

Its not a issue with exalted but a issue with sorc.
They could just when they added those pointless max level raising feats also add spell crit damage for that element and you would had seen more sorcs in draconic.
Actually a mini tweak to sorc cores to allow the coresponding savant to have in higher tier cores /18 and 20/ some crit damage with their savant of choice would make all sorc players swap to draconic because you want to get caster levels from core and suddenly your spells actually do more damage because of cores and lets say master of air as example for air savant.

There are always better ways to approach something and i just made out 1 by thinking about it for less then 10 seconds.

Morroiel
01-25-2017, 12:42 AM
Sorc players that want maximum efficiency swaped to warlocks years ago.
Why?
More dc, more defense, more damage.

I see rarely sorc players in powergamers community and if i see one its a shiradi thing.

Its not a issue with exalted but a issue with sorc.
They could just when they added those pointless max level raising feats also add spell crit damage for that element and you would had seen more sorcs in draconic.
Actually a mini tweak to sorc cores to allow the coresponding savant to have in higher tier cores /18 and 20/ some crit damage with their savant of choice would make all sorc players swap to draconic because you want to get caster levels from core and suddenly your spells actually do more damage because of cores and lets say master of air as example for air savant.

There are always better ways to approach something and i just made out 1 by thinking about it for less then 10 seconds.

You are wrong about the damage part. The reason why people play dps warlocks are because most people aren't good players. They need the extra tankiness to survive. Also, the sp efficiency of the lock is nice - no doubt. But make no mistake a sorc in the hands of a good player will always out dps a warlock until they run out of sp. Sorcs also have a lot of advantages that warlocks don't ;)

LrdSlvrhnd
01-25-2017, 01:07 AM
OK, I seriously think locking people out of Reaper Mode is a *huge* mistake. You want to nerf the XP and loot? Fine, goferit (although I'd argue that the benefit of even named items with a mythic or even Reaper bonus isn't such that people inclined to farm for an alt/TR are going to get that much out of it. But I digress...). But locking us out entirely? No. Most of us want to play for FUN, not XP or loot... and this just kicks fun right in the 'nads.

Also, making Hurl subject to a death effect while other abilities aren't is just cheese. And not the good kind of cheese. The bad kind. The very bad kind. The kind your buddy cuts in the elevator. Hurl doesn't *kill* the mob; it removes it from this plane of existence and sends it elsewhere. I like the idea presented above about adding a "dimensional anchor" buff (especially in Reaper), but DW shouldn't prevent a simple shunt somewhere else. Sure, the mob might not survive the experience... but that's because of the location, not the ability itself. It's like saying because Wolverine's bones are made of adamantium and can't be broken, he therefore can't be tossed off a cliff. He absolutely *can* be tossed off a cliff, he just won't have every bone in his body smashed when he hits the ground.

Also, 20 SP is a very steep price to pay for a nerfed ability. Is there any auto-granted ability that costs nearly as much?

boredman
01-25-2017, 01:11 AM
The most obvious reasons for the level restriction is because it would make it too easy for characters to farm Reaper and Mythic bonuses on named items from quests, and since Reaper provides additional XP, folks would be overly incentivized to run under-level quests on Reaper, particularly since being significantly overlevel would diminish the challenge the Reaper difficulty provided. Additionally, since the drop rate of named items is higher on Reaper, it would further encourage over-level characters to run under-level quests on Reaper.

Then you can give some penalties on drop rates and xp depending the number of overlevels. This give the option for much more ppl to play reaper, even some average ppl and even casuals could taste some reaper by overleveling it, instead of just ignoring it. Take as an example playing Toee or slavers quests at level on heroic, most people just skip those because are much harder and slow to play at level and not worth the risk, effort and time just for some xp and loot that will be temporary useful for few levels (some ppl farm it with higher level toons for the gear but that has been one of the benefits of being tr since ever, the challenge to play it at level with streaks is still there for the ones that want the challenge and are willing to WAIT while leveling.



If the main reason for wanting the level restriction removed is a wider diversity of quests for top-level characters, would people be happy if we removed the restriction but also removed the XP, Reaper/Mythic bonuses, increased drop rate, and other benefits from an under-level quest being run on Reaper, but otherwise allowed entry? Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.

Yes, more people would be happier because get more options. For example you can give penalties scaling by overlevels and eventually reaching a zero drop rate and xp when the number of overlevels is high enough (like 5 or 10 to say something). Then the ppl can decide if playing with those penalties is worth or not but they would have more options.



Remember that Reaper difficulty is not an end game nor specifically high-level activity, but is rather an option through the leveling process.
Since is a LEVELING option, most people are just going to ignore it for the most part since the main reason for leveling is the xp/time and that is very related to the difficulty of the quests. Now, at cap is diferent becacuse most people look for gear to improve and perfection their toons when there is not more power from xp and leveling. Also to test their toons when they are mostly at full potential.

BigErkyKid
01-25-2017, 01:12 AM
Well, aren't you guys looking forwards to reaper reincarnation?

The reaper enhancement trees look very generic and uncool to me. Just a bunch of power creep, and it is not the way I'd like to build power to advance in reaper. Furthermore, given that it must be leveled at level, and that it requires xp, this grind is going to further divide the population willing to play reaper. Want to play reaper effectively, then you first must grind out the reaper PrEs.

I don't know who are these people who want to level slowly and painfully in reaper. Typically those seeking challenge are the ones sitting at cap. Among the TR crowd the concern seems to be efficiency.

To me this sounds like the final confession that there won't be a real end game in ddo. You are going to lose players over this. In addition, you never gave us proper heads up of what the design intent was. Much like for most of the lama releases and previews. Only when the complaining starts you guys say that this is an extra difficulty for leveling. The fact that the part of the community that had been giving feedback and most involved in reaper is so surprised should be telling you how bad the communication policy is.

Finally, I don't know who you have in the PC. To me this indicates that either you don't listen to them or that they are a poorly chosen focus group. Making a focus group a PR move was bound to create trouble, and well it has. No one I know wants THIS reaper. Is it some silent majority thing going on?

Kebtid
01-25-2017, 01:16 AM
You are wrong about the damage part. The reason why people play dps warlocks are because most people aren't good players. They need the extra tankiness to survive. Also, the sp efficiency of the lock is nice - no doubt. But make no mistake a sorc in the hands of a good player will always out dps a warlock until they run out of sp. Sorcs also have a lot of advantages that warlocks don't ;)

Impossible to outdps a warlock that is abusing knowledge feat bug, no matter how good of a sorc player you are.
And that is what meta gamers do ...

Wizza
01-25-2017, 01:17 AM
I recognize that level 30 characters are not necessarily wearing low-level named loot, but I'm well aware that people collect gear for leveling, either for Alts for for True Reincarnation, and the large number of characters with full banks of named gear sort of proves that point. Ultimately, without the level restriction, we'd be overly incentivizing sitting at level cap and farming under-level Reaper quests, which is both undesired gameplay in addition to going against the very purpose of Reaper Difficulty to begin with.


We can somehow farm Heroic Abbot overlevel with our toons lv30 on hard posing no challenge on Live, but somehow us farming the same quest, on 10 skulls, that one shots us and pose an actual real challenge, is wrong?

We can destroy content like WGU in 5 minutes but you decide that farming a level 25 is undesidered gameplay? A quest that will probably kick our asses even on 5 skulls?

Noone asked for the XP in Reaper. Noone even asked for loot. And looking how hard Reaper will be, and how lucky someone must be to pull a mythic+Reaper bonus, loot shouldn't even be a concern for you.

Either way, between the ugly option and the worse option, I'll take the every quest Reaper option.

Knight_slayer
01-25-2017, 01:18 AM
Over level lockout? You must be joking. This is why reaper needs to be scaled to max level, everything. Make a reaper 11 skull, which turns any heroic or epic dungeon in to epic lvl 35 dungeons. There are already 10 settings though! Do we already need another difficulty setting for endgame beyond reaper? Last patch reaper opened up a huge chunk of the game for endgamers, this patch just killed reaper for endgamers.

Please please do not mess this up. Over level lockout is messing this up, big time. Imagine trying to organise a reaper abbot, getting 12 players on their lvl 17's? Never going to happen. Imagine trying to get a reaper LoB, bring out your lvl 22's guys. Fail, I cant believe you managed to screw this up so badly after last patch was so awesome.

EPIC FAIL.

Krell
01-25-2017, 01:19 AM
The most obvious reasons for the level restriction is because it would make it too easy for characters to farm Reaper and Mythic bonuses on named items from quests, and since Reaper provides additional XP, folks would be overly incentivized to run under-level quests on Reaper, particularly since being significantly overlevel would diminish the challenge the Reaper difficulty provided. Additionally, since the drop rate of named items is higher on Reaper, it would further encourage over-level characters to run under-level quests on Reaper.

If the main reason for wanting the level restriction removed is a wider diversity of quests for top-level characters, would people be happy if we removed the restriction but also removed the XP, Reaper/Mythic bonuses, increased drop rate, and other benefits from an under-level quest being run on Reaper, but otherwise allowed entry? Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.

Remember that Reaper difficulty is not an end game nor specifically high-level activity, but is rather an option through the leveling process.

Please expand the range in epic level quests. We already have expanded ranges in epics for character levels in a party and bravery bonuses. This allows more people to group together. Your design has valid points, but needs to be loosened in epic level quests to balance with social incentives.

CaptainPurge
01-25-2017, 01:30 AM
Over level lockout? You must be joking. This is why reaper needs to be scaled to max level, everything. Make a reaper 11 skull, which turns any heroic or epic dungeon in to epic lvl 35 dungeons. There are already 10 settings though! Do we already need another difficulty setting for endgame beyond reaper? Last patch reaper opened up a huge chunk of the game for endgamers, this patch just killed reaper for endgamers.

Please please do not mess this up. Over level lockout is messing this up, big time. Imagine trying to organise a reaper abbot, getting 12 players on their lvl 17's? Never going to happen. Imagine trying to get a reaper LoB, bring out your lvl 22's guys. Fail, I cant believe you managed to screw this up so badly after last patch was so awesome.

EPIC FAIL.

Nope they'll sell us Reaper Unlock Tokens in the SSG store for capped characters to unlock Reaper Over Level. This is why the the bean counters win again.
YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST FOLKS.

Morroiel
01-25-2017, 01:31 AM
Impossible to outdps a warlock that is abusing knowledge feat bug, no matter how good of a sorc player you are.
And that is what meta gamers do ...

Wrong both sorc and lock can abuse that same bug.

Kebtid
01-25-2017, 01:43 AM
Wrong both sorc and lock can abuse that same bug.

I kno, but crit damage puts warlock bit ahead /you know stacking crit damage vs higher tier base spells.
/dont get me wrong, i love in this game only monks and sorcs, but i am aware that lock is ahead dps wise, guildie has a end geared lock and he tested on his alt with same gear to produce same damage and lock was severly ahead vs a full geared sorc, so what im saying is mostly based on ingame experience of a fully endgeared meta player who wants maximum efficiency

Anyways, 1 thing that worries me after rereading the trees proposal is how in specific trees it says Reaper's Charge: +1 Maximum Reaper Charge.

Do we have limited ap we can get from converting xp into survival points or are those endless til we fill all trees?

(i dont even like trees, but wondering about this)

Doctorivil
01-25-2017, 01:45 AM
The main purpose of Reaper is to provide an exceptional challenge to players looking for it.

I tottaly agree with the level restriction, and to be honest i even think the overall reaper trees are already too powerfull.
This level restriction is one of the features i love the most about reaper.

Me and my guidlies agree on this, Reaper is meant to be a challenge, anything that gives reaper a feel that "you must" do it, cause it's highly beneficial should not be there. That being said, cosmetics and such felt like a nice reward already.

Cocomajobo
01-25-2017, 01:49 AM
After a night of trials and tribulations the preview is open!

Mandelia
01-25-2017, 01:50 AM
As a leveling mechanic, Reaper will be mostly ignored. There simply isn't enough talent left on the servers to fill regular parties at random levels on the given difficulties, much less getting together enough level appropriate bruisers to FILL SPECIFIC ROLES to take on any given reaper quest. Maybe 3-4 years ago. Maybe. You are proposing one decent character PUGGING for the rest of the spots in reaper, and that would not only take a maddeningly long time, but then most likely fail with the noob-bait that you will end up with. You think there are still enough leveling friend groups to attempt this, then you are living in the past. MERGE the servers and maybe this lock-out proposal would have some legs, but even then it seems to be direct discrimination against capped lives characters. Personally I care very little about getting a mythic level X item. I am here for some challenge, and anything else is just icing on a very old and worn-out cake.

Knight_slayer
01-25-2017, 01:51 AM
Lama open.

Wizza
01-25-2017, 01:53 AM
Nm

Atheok
01-25-2017, 02:00 AM
It doesn't look like working to me...

https://s23.postimg.org/454214wej/bandicam_2017_01_25_02_58_17_809.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/93rkfo07b/)[/url]

https://s28.postimg.org/bepkq71ul/bandicam_2017_01_25_02_57_45_361.jpg (https://postimage.org/)[url=https://postimage.org/]

Kerthyn
01-25-2017, 02:01 AM
I'm having the same error.

Rykka
01-25-2017, 02:10 AM
Ditto.

MeliCat
01-25-2017, 02:12 AM
Trying to understand the logic of over level lockout. That must have been a decision you made before you designed loot. Why would you do that? A lot of end game leveling players take pride in leveling with the worst loot because they don't care - the game for them doesn't really start until 30. And that's where they get out the good gear and tweak up. Everything revolves around being the best you can possibly be at 30. Not at 28. Not at 13. Not at any other level. All focus, all those past lives , all the hours farming gear is around level 30. And you've taken all those amazing efforts and put them to one side and said nope, at end game you can only have this percentage of content (and incident this is the same end game content you've been playing the last 5 years).

This shows either a surprising lack of appreciation of how end gamers play, or of end gamers. I'm somewhat surprised this has happened. Who on earth have you got on the PC this year that thought this was a good idea?

So much for old timers coming back. I guess you're focusing on getting new players instead then.

noinfo
01-25-2017, 02:19 AM
The most obvious reasons for the level restriction is because it would make it too easy for characters to farm Reaper and Mythic bonuses on named items from quests, and since Reaper provides additional XP, folks would be overly incentivized to run under-level quests on Reaper, particularly since being significantly overlevel would diminish the challenge the Reaper difficulty provided. Additionally, since the drop rate of named items is higher on Reaper, it would further encourage over-level characters to run under-level quests on Reaper.

If the main reason for wanting the level restriction removed is a wider diversity of quests for top-level characters, would people be happy if we removed the restriction but also removed the XP, Reaper/Mythic bonuses, increased drop rate, and other benefits from an under-level quest being run on Reaper, but otherwise allowed entry? Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.

Remember that Reaper difficulty is not an end game nor specifically high-level activity, but is rather an option through the leveling process.

Here is my feedback. I will not care one bit for reaper content that I can't play at cap. Artificial stuff about xp and named items etc. There are many old raids that would have been great to revisit particulary if they had something new to offer in terms of items etc but I will never etr or tr for this. You have missed your target audience badly, and it is a shame.

Cocomajobo
01-25-2017, 02:21 AM
It doesn't look like working to me...

https://s23.postimg.org/454214wej/bandicam_2017_01_25_02_58_17_809.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/93rkfo07b/)[/url]

https://s28.postimg.org/bepkq71ul/bandicam_2017_01_25_02_57_45_361.jpg (https://postimage.org/)[url=https://postimage.org/]

Ah. Gross. I don't currently have a solution for you (other than the awful workaround of completely redownloading the client) until this morning when the rest of the team arrives.

Kebtid
01-25-2017, 02:37 AM
Same error, not wiling to redownload launcher if it will be fixed

Knight_slayer
01-25-2017, 02:44 AM
Trying to understand the logic of over level lockout. That must have been a decision you made before you designed loot. Why would you do that? A lot of end game leveling players take pride in leveling with the worst loot because they don't care - the game for them doesn't really start until 30. And that's where they get out the good gear and tweak up. Everything revolves around being the best you can possibly be at 30. Not at 28. Not at 13. Not at any other level. All focus, all those past lives , all the hours farming gear is around level 30. And you've taken all those amazing efforts and put them to one side and said nope, at end game you can only have this percentage of content (and incident this is the same end game content you've been playing the last 5 years).

This shows either a surprising lack of appreciation of how end gamers play, or of end gamers. I'm somewhat surprised this has happened. Who on earth have you got on the PC this year that thought this was a good idea?

So much for old timers coming back. I guess you're focusing on getting new players instead then.

+1

Its hard to think what was the decision making behind this one. Funny, my guildy told me they would find a way to mess this up, because they always do. I'm so peve'd right now. The only light at the end of the gloomy tunnel is that this lockout rubbish gets canned. Absolute joke. Its such a bad idea it makes my head hurt thinking about it.

Players for the most part couldn't care less about difficulty while leveling, they just want to get it done as fast as possible. It also wasn't the TR crowd that made all the noise about getting a new difficulty to begin with, it was the endgame crowd that has had bugger all to do for the past several years. Now you bring out the second new difficulty attempt after the first failed attempt but make it all about leveling! What the hell? Seriously, its infuriating to imagine you are this out of touch with your players.

cru121
01-25-2017, 02:45 AM
Over-level characters are not able enter quests on Reaper Difficulty. Characters cannot enter a quest on Reaper Difficulty if they are more than two levels of the base challenge rating of the dungeon or raid. Characters also cannot enter Reaper dungeons if they are Epic level and the dungeon is not.

Adding to the pile of posters who think that this is a bad idea.

Grant less or no reaper XP when overlevel, that's obvious.

I don't see why lower the chance of named items or frequency of mythic / reaper bonuses on them. We're farming for stuff overlevel now, what's wrong with that?

I have a heavy duty warlock mule at lvl 15 capable of farming most relevant heroic named loot (Archons / Gambit / new Meridia / new F2P stuff). I guess I could roll another mule parked at level 8 to farm Chrono (I want my mythic reaper Abishai set!), ToEE, and Slavers. Still I think it's a bad idea.

The second restriction for epic characters in heroic quests is also a bad idea, particularly for high level heroic raids like VoD, HoX, ToD. Max lvl 19, duh. No.

Jetrule
01-25-2017, 03:00 AM
I am Looking forward to running a all or mostly reaper life. Infact in my guild there are 2 full static groups ready to T.R. into dedicated roles and run all reaper content as they level.

lppmor
01-25-2017, 03:06 AM
Adding to the pile of posters who think that this is a bad idea.

Grant less or no reaper XP when overlevel, that's obvious.

As I understand they have added this level restriction because XP and loot penalties are still not implemented for reaper. And if people agree with this restriction would be faster than having to implement it..

But I'm with the ones who think overlevel runs should never be blocked. Just add penalties like any other difficulty. Why change this to reaper? For example, I'd like to run some overlevel quests while leveling and still get some reaper XP for my effort, even if that's only 25% XP.

Atheok
01-25-2017, 03:07 AM
Trying to understand the logic of over level lockout. That must have been a decision you made before you designed loot. Why would you do that? A lot of end game leveling players take pride in leveling with the worst loot because they don't care - the game for them doesn't really start until 30. And that's where they get out the good gear and tweak up. Everything revolves around being the best you can possibly be at 30. Not at 28. Not at 13. Not at any other level. All focus, all those past lives , all the hours farming gear is around level 30. And you've taken all those amazing efforts and put them to one side and said nope, at end game you can only have this percentage of content (and incident this is the same end game content you've been playing the last 5 years).

This shows either a surprising lack of appreciation of how end gamers play, or of end gamers. I'm somewhat surprised this has happened. Who on earth have you got on the PC this year that thought this was a good idea?

So much for old timers coming back. I guess you're focusing on getting new players instead then.

I haven't been on lama yet, but from what I understand, some lower level reaper 10 won't be available for lvl 30's?

The only thing I can think of is... "Don't you dare farm for those reaper bonuses unless you are in level range!"... sad... : I'd rather not have loot at all than be stripped off content.

Silverleafeon
01-25-2017, 03:25 AM
This is why you Devs have a Player's Council, so you can ask them things like this.

This is also why you should not be stingy on spots for the Player's Council so you have enough to ask.

This is also why you replenish spots on the Player's Council before the full year is up to avoid burnout.

BigErkyKid
01-25-2017, 03:31 AM
Suppose they remove the over level restriction and just add penalties. I guess that's super easy.

Why on earth do I have to level some generic power boost called "reaper PrE" in order to play reaper with my friends?

And given the penalties to over level, do I have to TR to effectively level the reaper PrE in a reaper TR life?

My proposal: give reaper PrE points per level. That is, you level this the same you level your character.

If you must, sell reaper trees as a cheap PrE.

Also, please put some more effort into the reaper PrEs; they look bland.

PS - To expand on this. By effectively creating "reaper levels" with the XP for reaper, you are spreading the population of potential reaper players even thinner.

Krell
01-25-2017, 04:01 AM
As a leveling mechanic, Reaper will be mostly ignored. There simply isn't enough talent left on the servers to fill regular parties at random levels on the given difficulties, much less getting together enough level appropriate bruisers to FILL SPECIFIC ROLES to take on any given reaper quest. Maybe 3-4 years ago. Maybe. You are proposing one decent character PUGGING for the rest of the spots in reaper, and that would not only take a maddeningly long time, but then most likely fail with the noob-bait that you will end up with. You think there are still enough leveling friend groups to attempt this, then you are living in the past. MERGE the servers and maybe this lock-out proposal would have some legs, but even then it seems to be direct discrimination against capped lives characters. Personally I care very little about getting a mythic level X item. I am here for some challenge, and anything else is just icing on a very old and worn-out cake.

Agreed. Filling groups at random levels for reaper isn't realistic most the time. Better to let over-levels farm them than to have them rarely run at all.

Vanhooger
01-25-2017, 04:05 AM
Oh my god, all the excitment for this update gone with that level restriction, I'm sorry SSG. As an end gamer only I can't wait to run the same quest again at cap, wow. I have no intention to run tr's anymore as I have done enough of it. I hope you guys do realize that is the worst mistake ever since ddo is out and reconsider this, if you don't I guess I will stick with other game. Wanted to try lama but I lost the last hope of having fun in ddo so unless something change you lost a customer since beta, anyway good luck with that thing.

Malex
01-25-2017, 04:16 AM
So, let me get this straight:
People asked for a new more difficult challenge. Especially for those people who are on their "final" life.
You make it (as of december) and think "well, we need rewards to make people run that". Ok. You create those rewards. You are afraid people will run overlevel to get those rewards, which is not the purpose of reaper. You lock out overlevel.
It seems pretty straightfoward to me: *it means you think your rewards are too good*. (Whether that's true or not, it's open to discussion, I don't think those rewards are actually worth the time consuming at level thing).

Things become ridicoulous on epic, since, lol, one can run 4 level more than quest level for BRAVERY bonus (which means you are doing something challenging, isnt it?) but you can run reaper? lol?
Also, xp penalties are (almost?) absent in epics, because you want people to group more easly.... BUT NOT FOR REAPER? LOL

Do you really think people would bother farming low level quests for items for tr? ....... RANDOM LOOT IS BETTER THAN MOST OF THOSE ITEMS. And a +6 MRR would not make a damn difference, no one is going after that.
I've not seen people run Heroic Memoirs for a mithic bonus on the panshopic circlet.. i've seen people farm for the item itself, but what's the difference for allowing reapers or not? The fact that the chance is higher? Yeah.. like the number of runs really matter.

I'm ok for a good reaper xp penalty for the whole party to overlevel (25% per level seems nice), not for the epic lockout from heroic though (because Abbot, ToD and VoD are not epic, but people might want to run it), just lockout quests/raids that HAVE the epic option ;)

Vanhooger
01-25-2017, 04:52 AM
So, let me get this straight:
People asked for a new more difficult challenge. Especially for those people who are on their "final" life.
You make it (as of december) and think "well, we need rewards to make people run that". Ok. You create those rewards. You are afraid people will run overlevel to get those rewards, which is not the purpose of reaper. You lock out overlevel.
It seems pretty straightfoward to me: *it means you think your rewards are too good*. (Whether that's true or not, it's open to discussion, I don't think those rewards are actually worth the time consuming at level thing).

Things become ridicoulous on epic, since, lol, one can run 4 level more than quest level for BRAVERY bonus (which means you are doing something challenging, isnt it?) but you can run reaper? lol?
Also, xp penalties are (almost?) absent in epics, because you want people to group more easly.... BUT NOT FOR REAPER? LOL

Do you really think people would bother farming low level quests for items for tr? ....... RANDOM LOOT IS BETTER THAN MOST OF THOSE ITEMS. And a +6 MRR would not make a damn difference, no one is going after that.
I've not seen people run Heroic Memoirs for a mithic bonus on the panshopic circlet.. i've seen people farm for the item itself, but what's the difference for allowing reapers or not? The fact that the chance is higher? Yeah.. like the number of runs really matter.

I'm ok for a good reaper xp penalty for the whole party to overlevel (25% per level seems nice), not for the epic lockout from heroic though (because Abbot, ToD and VoD are not epic, but people might want to run it), just lockout quests/raids that HAVE the epic option ;)

the fail was introducing powerful rewards (sick tree powercreep) and xp that nobody needs.
They had so many people screaming for no power related reward such cosmetic, characther title etc, but no, has to be powercreep.

SirValentine
01-25-2017, 05:12 AM
If the main reason for wanting the level restriction removed is a wider diversity of quests for top-level characters, would people be happy if we removed the restriction but also removed the XP, Reaper/Mythic bonuses, increased drop rate, and other benefits from an under-level quest being run on Reaper, but otherwise allowed entry? Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.


Reaper is much harder, and Reaper gear is barely better. Do they exact same thing you do with a level 30 who decides he wants to farm for a level 1 item now: No change to drop rates at all, but no XP whatsoever. Just make Reaper XP use the same XP rules that apply to other XP. That instantly solves "farming level 1 quests for Reaper XP", and I don't really see the problem on the low-level items.

Qhualor
01-25-2017, 05:46 AM
I tottaly agree with the level restriction, and to be honest i even think the overall reaper trees are already too powerfull.
This level restriction is one of the features i love the most about reaper.

Me and my guidlies agree on this, Reaper is meant to be a challenge, anything that gives reaper a feel that "you must" do it, cause it's highly beneficial should not be there. That being said, cosmetics and such felt like a nice reward already.

+1

mikarddo
01-25-2017, 06:05 AM
Yes, that's how it works. If the base CR of the quest is more than 2 lower than your character level you can not enter the quest on Reaper difficulty.

As many others have posted this is a very bad idea. It very severely limits the number of quests we can run at level cap.

Suggestion for adjustment based on having overlevel characters in a quest.

XP: Simply give xp as if the quest was run on Elite, ie no Reaper xp bonus. Thats definitely no worse than now and quite similar to how Bravery Bonus is handled.

Loot in quests: Reduce the bonus from #Skulls to #Skull - max number of levels above (base quest level +2). So, if a group with a level 30 enters a level 25 quest on 7 skulls loot calculations are made as if the quest was on 4 skulls instead (as the 30 is 3 levels above 25+2).

Loot in raids: Simply let it drop - you want those old raids to be run as much as possible even if overlevel - the alternative is not having them run at all.

Malex
01-25-2017, 06:14 AM
tottaly agree with the level restriction, and to be honest i even think the overall reaper trees are already too powerfull.
This level restriction is one of the features i love the most about reaper.

Me and my guidlies agree on this, Reaper is meant to be a challenge, anything that gives reaper a feel that "you must" do it, cause it's highly beneficial should not be there. That being said, cosmetics and such felt like a nice reward already.


It's not about challenge (it would be ok even if quests scaled to legendary level all together), it's about opportunity.
You HAVE to TR (or, at least, eTR) to be able to *enter* reaper?

What can you do a 30 right now on reaper? 24 quests/raids (according to wiki) which are:
Raids: LShroud, LTS, LHoX, FoTP, Deathwyrm, MoD, DoJ. (This is actually a pretty good selection, this is ok)
Quests: Necro 4, Curse/Crepping, Update31 ones, Haunted Halls, ToEE, Slavers, Trial of the Archons, Devil's details. (Only a handful of fan favourites)

This is all. Not much content. I thought Reaper was supposed to make not challenging content challenging (and uncompletable ad 8-10 skulls) again. The listed quests are exactly those few which are still challenging on EE/LE (well, except slavers).

How could I ever find people that have maxed out heroic xp but did not activate epic xp (lol) to run Dreaming dark, Shavarat etc?
You cant even do those after eTR, because you are still an epic toon. You have to TR for those -.- Why cant triple completionists get challenge without tr???
And, also, at any given level you have only an handful of quests/raids.

Like, I want to get the bragging rights of completing X L25 quest on reaper. Well, I guess i'll have to stay at 27 FOREVER. Cant take 28, or i'll have to go up to 30, etr and come back. ***.


A solution might be have quests scale to your level+2 and make impossible for people in the group which are higher than that to enter.
The concept is simple, it's probably really complicate code-wise, but i think we should look foward to it

Vanhooger
01-25-2017, 06:21 AM
It's not about challenge (it would be ok even if quests scaled to legendary level all together), it's about opportunity.
You HAVE to TR (or, at least, eTR) to be able to *enter* reaper?

What can you do a 30 right now on reaper? 24 quests/raids (according to wiki) which are:
Raids: LShroud, LTS, LHoX, FoTP, Deathwyrm, MoD, DoJ. (This is actually a pretty good selection, this is ok)
Quests: Necro 4, Curse/Crepping, Update31 ones, Haunted Halls, ToEE, Slavers, Trial of the Archons, Devil's details. (Only a handful of fan favourites)

This is all. Not much content. I thought Reaper was supposed to make not challenging content challenging (and uncompletable ad 8-10 skulls) again. The listed quests are exactly those few which are still challenging on EE/LE (well, except slavers).

How could I ever find people that have maxed out heroic xp but did not activate epic xp (lol) to run Dreaming dark, Shavarat etc?
You cant even do those after eTR, because you are still an epic toon. You have to TR for those -.- Why cant triple completionists get challenge without tr???
And, also, at any given level you have only an handful of quests/raids.

Like, I want to get the bragging rights of completing X L25 quest on reaper. Well, I guess i'll have to stay at 27 FOREVER. Cant take 28, or i'll have to go up to 30, etr and come back. ***.


A solution might be have quests scale to your level+2 and make impossible for people in the group which are higher than that to enter.
The concept is simple, it's probably really complicate code-wise, but i think we should look foward to it

The whole thing is silly for who loves to stay at cap. They basically tell us "keep play same quest that you did till today", so much fun.

I hope they remove that madness and allow any level, and if overlevel I don't care a t all if they remove XP, as I don't need xp at 30, and remove reward, as I don't need crappy underlevel item.

Claver
01-25-2017, 06:45 AM
The most obvious reasons for the level restriction is because it would make it too easy for characters to farm Reaper and Mythic bonuses on named items from quests, and since Reaper provides additional XP, folks would be overly incentivized to run under-level quests on Reaper, particularly since being significantly overlevel would diminish the challenge the Reaper difficulty provided. Additionally, since the drop rate of named items is higher on Reaper, it would further encourage over-level characters to run under-level quests on Reaper.

If the main reason for wanting the level restriction removed is a wider diversity of quests for top-level characters, would people be happy if we removed the restriction but also removed the XP, Reaper/Mythic bonuses, increased drop rate, and other benefits from an under-level quest being run on Reaper, but otherwise allowed entry? Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.

Remember that Reaper difficulty is not an end game nor specifically high-level activity, but is rather an option through the leveling process.

Here are my thoughts


I rather like that there is some gating mechanic to preserve challenge of a 10 skull achievement to a character at or close to the level of that quest; having said that, I am sympathetic to the desire of those at CAP to play a wider range of content and at some levels, it may be hard to find enough players to fill the party in that level range unless characters underlevel give it a go.

I would proposes a different compromise:

First Choice: Characters of any level can run Reaper at up to 6 skulls of difficulty. Skull setting of 7or higher will be restricted to characters no higher than 2 levels of the base challenge rating of the quest.

Comment: Applies to all level ranges while maintaining the integrity of the highest levels of achievement

Second Choice: Characters of any level can run Epic quest on Reaper. Heroic Reaper will be restricted to characters no higher than 2 levels of the base challenge rating of the quest.

Comment: Gives characters at CAP more quests to run while avoiding abuses at heroic levels

Third Choice: Reaper will be restricted to characters no higher than 4 levels of the base challenge rating of the quest.

Comment: Gives characters at CAP a few more quests to run at CAP. It still allows for some abuses but at 4 levels it won't be quite as extreme

If Reaper XP and higher drop rates is a concern for abuses then provide non-linear scaling of Reaper XP and drops at the higher skulls of difficulty i.e. the incremental increase in reaper xp and drops between 8 skull compared to 7 skull would be significantly greater than the incremental increase in reaper xp and drops between 4 skull compared to 3 skull.

This would work for my first choice and third choice propositions above

Cocomajobo
01-25-2017, 07:01 AM
Due to the number of issues encountered in the build process last night a number of fixes/changes that we thought would be in the current Lammania are not currently (Such as the Reaper Tree UI not listing your current Reaper Experience and the amount needed for the next Reaper Point, Reaper Tier 5 enhancements causing lockout of the other Reaper Trees tier 5's, and being able to spend Reaper Points into the negatives). In addition, we are aware that there is an issue with the patching via the launcher that some players are encountering which is preventing them from updating Lammania. We are currently in the process of assessing the possibility of updating the preview build with those changes that should have already been in it and working towards a resolution of the patching issue. We'll keep you posted.

The OP has been amended to relay this information.

(EDIT: Added in clarification on the patching issue that some are experiencing)

FranOhmsford
01-25-2017, 07:30 AM
OMG!

This is a LUDICROUS amount of Power Creep!



Reaper Tree I: Weapons
Cores:
Reaper's Offense I: +1 to hit and damage with all weapons while in Reaper Difficulty. Every ability you take in this tree grants +10 Maximum Hit Points in Reaper Difficulty.
Reaper's Offense II: +1 to Tactics DCs, +1 to hit and damage
Reaper's Offense III: +1 STR or DEX
Reaper's Offense IV: +2 to hit and damage
Reaper's Offense V: +1 Melee and Ranged Power
Reaper's Offense VI: +1 to Tactics DCs, +2 Melee and Ranged Power

Tier 1:
Reaper's Blade: +1/2/3 Melee Power while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Tactics: +1 to Tactics DCs while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Strike: While in Reaper Difficulty, activate to expend one Reaper Charge and gain a +10/20/30% Bonus to Doublestrike and Doubleshot for 30 seconds.
Reaper's STR/DEX: +1 STR or DEX while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Shot: +1/2/3 Ranged Power while in Reaper Difficulty

Tier 2:
Reaper's Blade: +1/2/3 Melee Power while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Tactics: +1 to Tactics DCs while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's STR/DEX: +1 STR or DEX while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Shot: +1/2/3 Ranged Power while in Reaper Difficulty

Tier 3:
Reaper's Blade: +1/2/3 Melee Power while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Tactics: +1 to Tactics DCs while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's STR/DEX: +1 STR or DEX while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Shot: +1/2/3 Ranged Power while in Reaper Difficulty

Tier 4:
Reaper's Blade: +2/4/6 Melee Power while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Imbument: While in Reaper Difficulty, activate to expend one Reaper Charge to gain Ghost Touch, bypass 5%/10%/15% of enemies' Fortification, and bypass 1/2/3% of their Dodge. This lasts for 30 seconds.
Reaper's Deadly Strikes: While in Reaper Difficulty, activate to expend one Reaper Charge and gain a +2/4/6 Reaper Bonus to confirm critical hits and critical hit damage for 30 seconds.
Reaper's Shot: +2/4/6 Ranged Power while in Reaper Difficulty

Tier 5:
Reaper's Blade: +2/4/6 Melee Power while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Tactics: +1 to Tactics DCs while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Charge: +1 Maximum Reaper Charge
Reaper's STR/DEX: +1 STR or DEX while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Shot: +2/4/6 Ranged Power while in Reaper Difficulty

Reaper Tree II: Spells
Cores:
Reaper's Arcanum I: +50 Maximum Spell Points while in Reaper Difficulty. Every ability you take in this tree grants +10 Maximum Hit Points in Reaper Difficulty.
Reaper's Arcanum II: +1 to Spell DCs, +50 Maximum Spell Points
Reaper's Arcanum III: +1 INT, WIS, or CHA
Reaper's Arcanum IV: +100 Maximum Spell Points
Reaper's Arcanum V: +2 Universal Spell Power, +150 Maximum Spell Points
Reaper's Arcanum VI: +1 to Spell DCs, +4 Universal Spell Power, +200 Maximum Spell Points

Tier 1:
Reaper's Arcana: +2/4/6 Universal Spell Power while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Focus: +1 to Spell DCs while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Power: While in Reaper Difficulty, activate to expend one Reaper Charge and gain a +15/30/45 Profane Bonus to Universal Spell Power for 30 Seconds.
Reaper's INT/WIS/CHA: +1 to INT, WIS, or CHA while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Deep Magic: +1/2/3 to Spell Penetration while in Reaper Difficulty

Tier 2:
Reaper's Arcana: +2/4/6 Universal Spell Power while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Focus: +1 to Spell DCs while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's INT/WIS/CHA: +1 to INT, WIS, or CHA while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Deep Magic: +1/2/3 to Spell Penetration while in Reaper Difficulty

Tier 3:
Reaper's Arcana: +2/4/6 Universal Spell Power while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Focus: +1 to Spell DCs while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's INT/WIS/CHA: +1 to INT, WIS, or CHA while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Deep Magic: +1/2/3 to Spell Penetration while in Reaper Difficulty

Tier 4:
Reaper's Arcana: +4/8/12 Universal Spell Power while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Potency: While in Reaper Difficulty, activate to expend one Reaper Charge and gain a +2/4/6 Reaper Bonus to Spell DC's for 30 seconds.
Reaper's Efficiency: While in Reaper Difficulty, activate to expend one Reaper Charge and reduce the Spell point cost of your spells by 15/30/45% for 30 seconds.
Reaper's Deep Magic: +1/2/3 to Spell Penetration while in Reaper Difficulty

Tier 5:
Reaper's Arcana: +4/8/12 Universal Spell Power while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Focus: +1 to Spell DCs while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Charge: +1 Maximum Reaper Charge
Reaper's INT/WIS/CHA: +1 to INT, WIS, or CHA while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Deep Magic: +1/2/3 to Spell Penetration while in Reaper Difficulty

Reaper Tree III: Tank
Cores:
Reaper's Defense I: +10 Hit Points in Reaper Difficulty. In addition, Every ability you take in this tree grants +12 Maximum Hit Points in Reaper Difficulty.
Reaper's Defense II: +1 to all Saves, +20 Hit Points
Reaper's Defense III: +1 CON
Reaper's Defense IV: +1 to all Saves, +100 Hit Points
Reaper's Defense V: +1 Dodge, +1 PRR and MRR
Reaper's Defense VI: +1 Dodge Cap, +2 PRR and MRR

Tier 1:
Reaper's Bulwark/Shroud: +1/2/3 (PRR or MRR) while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Reflex/Fortitude/Will: +1/2/3 to (Reflex, Fortitude, or Will Saves) while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Luck: While in Reaper Difficulty, activate to expend one Reaper Charge and gain a +5/10/15 Reaper Bonus to Saving Throws for 30 seconds.
Reaper's Constitution: +1 to Constitution while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Evasion: +1/2/3 Dodge while in Reaper Difficulty

Tier 2:
Reaper's Bulwark/Shroud: +1/2/3 (PRR or MRR) while in Reaper Difficulty.
Reaper's Reflex/Fortitude/Will: +1/2/3 to (Reflex, Fortitude, or Will Saves) while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Constitution: +1 to Constitution while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Evasion: +1/2/3 Dodge while in Reaper Difficulty

Tier 3:
Reaper's Bulwark/Shroud: +1/2/3 (PRR or MRR) while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Reflex/Fortitude/Will: +1/2/3 to (Reflex, Fortitude, or Will Saves) while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Constitution: +1 to Constitution while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Evasion: +1/2/3 Dodge while in Reaper Difficulty

Tier 4:
Reaper's Bulwark/Shroud: +2/4/6 (PRR or MRR) while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Resistance: While in Reaper Difficulty, activate to expend one Reaper Charge and gain a +10/20/30 Profane Bonus to PRR for 30 Seconds.
Reaper's Steadfastness: While in Reaper Difficulty, activate to expend one Reaper Charge and gain a +30/60/90 Reaper Bonus to Fortification and a +10/20/30 Reaper Bonus to Energy Resistance for 30 Seconds.
Reaper's Heightened Evasion: +1 Dodge Cap while in Reaper Difficulty

Tier 5:
Reaper's Bulwark/Shroud: +2/4/6 (PRR or MRR) while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Reflex/Fortitude/Will: +1/2/3 to (Reflex, Fortitude, or Will Saves) while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Charge: +1 Maximum Reaper Charge
Reaper's Constitution: +1 to Constitution while in Reaper Difficulty
Reaper's Heightened Evasion: +1 Dodge Cap while in Reaper Difficulty

Reaper Trees can be reset similar to the way Enhancement Trees are reset, with platinum or Astral Shards.

Wizza
01-25-2017, 07:30 AM
Can we have the numbers needed of XP Coco? How much XP is needed for one tree, so to get one point etc.

IdyllShade
01-25-2017, 07:49 AM
This is the key mistake.

I'm not even an endgame player and I think it's nuts that you guys spent all this time and effort on reaper mode and it isn't an endgame. It absolutely should be. I don't see any value from heroic reaper. If you made ALL quests effective level 30 when running reaper, then 1 to 10 skulls increases from there, then I'd say bravo even though I would likely never set foot in any of them.

Or to put it another way: I'm not an endgame guy, I'm a tr guy. And I think reaper should be changed from a tr system to an endgame-only system.

It sounds like this is the key disconnect between SSG and the player base, and needs careful rethinking to make sure that reaper achieves all of it's design goals. Please don't rush into it, getting this right provides enormous benefits for everyone.

From my point of view, there are already lots of levelling activities for those running the TR/ETR wheel, but very little reason to keep a character at 30 other than farming loot for future lives/alts (undesirable gameplay I think it was called). Reaper could provide an opportunity to graft a compelling endgame onto the end of the TR/ETR process, and give a reason to run those past lives, to gear up with the best available and to progress characters sitting at level 30. Got 2-3 past lives and mediocre gear? Reaper 1-2 skulls is all you should be able to handle. Want to be competitive in reaper 8? Get another 20 past lives and have the best gear possible!

Incentivizing past lives and needing the best gear and builds, to me, makes not only for great gameplay, but also makes great business sense, since it gets people playing for longer and provides many more opportunities for them to want to buy and spend DDO points.

FranOhmsford
01-25-2017, 08:01 AM
Incentivizing past lives and needing the best gear and builds, to me, makes not only for great gameplay, but also makes great business sense, since it gets people playing for longer and provides many more opportunities for them to want to buy and spend DDO points.

The problem with this is that the Grind in DDO has already got to absolutely insane levels!

42 Heroic Lives
36 Epic Lives
15 Iconic Lives

I think that's it so far? {Dragonborn will add a minimum 3 more Iconic Lives for Completionists to grind out}.

New Players are now expected not only to go VIP or buy every pack but also to buy two expansions {it will be 3 possibly 4 from Sev's statements on DDOCast by the end of this year!}.

Newbie retention is a major problem and you're only worried about incentivising more grind for people who've already ground out everything so far!

mikarddo
01-25-2017, 08:06 AM
Since is a LEVELING option, most people are just going to ignore it for the most part since the main reason for leveling is the xp/time and that is very related to the difficulty of the quests.

I think R1 will be the new xp mode for leveling. If you are doing BB elite already why not add R1 for a +120% xp bonus and some Reaper xp as well? (never mind the named loot with or without reaper bonus effects).

TPICKRELL
01-25-2017, 08:12 AM
...New Players are now expected not only to go VIP or buy every pack but also to buy two expansions {it will be 3 possibly 4 from Sev's statements on DDOCast by the end of this year!}...!

Just a point of interest. I'm pretty sure that the second expansion that they were talking about is the LOTRO expansion that is due out soon. This was covered a bit more in the MMOReporter interview of Severlin and Cordovan.

FranOhmsford
01-25-2017, 08:37 AM
Just a point of interest. I'm pretty sure that the second expansion that they were talking about is the LOTRO expansion that is due out soon. This was covered a bit more in the MMOReporter interview of Severlin and Cordovan.

Which brings up yet another issue - There are people who play BOTH games!

Not I {I tried LotRO and thought it was terrible} but there are a number who do and they will most likely have to buy both expansions as expansions by their very nature generally become mandatory. {DDO is currently at 50/50 with MotU being absolutely mandatory and Shadowfell being a strong choice but the game is playable without it.}.

JOTMON
01-25-2017, 08:42 AM
Impossible to outdps a warlock that is abusing knowledge feat bug, no matter how good of a sorc player you are.
And that is what meta gamers do ...

you are so wrong..

a good Warlock performed well in knocking off single kills..

Sorcs destroy warlock when it comes to mass grouping kills.

Natashaelle
01-25-2017, 08:42 AM
Dipped my toe into Reaper, soloing on a lvl 4 dorf in level 2, 1-4 skull Reaper, quests (the short ones). (got pwnd in 4-skull)

With a couple of cleric hires.

Self-heal debuff still seems as unnatural to me when applied to clerics in-game as it does theory-wise -- the Class becomes intrinsically less balanced compared to others, and I have a strong feeling that some poor decisions to implement some 4th Edition design elements ("everyone can fight" ; "everyone can self-heal") into DDO have caused a basic problem in game balance for DDO, that is foreign to (A)D&D 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th Editions.

I doubt that the 3 Reaper trees will correct this imbalance, any more than expecting Clerics & FvS etc to require healing from Wizards, Rogues, Fighters, Artificers and whatnot might do so.

I mean -- let's face it.

This is a fundamental design change to the very principles of D&D, where fighters provide DPS, Magic-Users buffs & attack spells, Clerics healing and mêlée support, Thieves backstabbing & trapping etc.

Cooperation in gaming is not constructed by nerfing the particular abilities of one rôle after having mistakenly provided its singular strengths to everyone and their pet dog.

The lack of a Healer path in the Reaper trees simply adds insult to injury.

Expecting that Healers need to be healed by others, whilst Fighters do not require assistance to provide fighting (but in fact are buffed), Magic-Users no assistance in spell-casting (but in fact are buffed), Thieves no assistance in thieving (but in fact are buffed) is simply to expect that Clerics must return to the second-class citizen status they had back in the Atari years.

Guess we'll return to ye olde "need healer" LFMs ... and eventually, after the novelty fades away, and people get back to refusing to sacrifice their own fun on the altar of whatever arbitrary game design decisions, we'll finally get some more solid attempt at a Cleric & FvS Class pass, instead of implementing an artificial system whereby clerics need healing from barbarians in level 5 dungeons.

Vish
01-25-2017, 08:54 AM
A measured response

Ok, I had to sleep on this.
My initial impression was nerf city and a slam.
And the over level seems wrong.

From what coco said streaming, it sounder like it was going to be an xp nerf to overlevel. Like -25% per level over. So say a 30 running anything under 27 gets no xp. That sounded fine.
But now, 2 levels? That seems good idea for rewards. I'd keep it.
But, you should still allow overlevel. Just no rewards.
Can you guys code this?

Because the cry seems to be level 30 and challenge.
But I get it. Everybody is already talking 10 skull completion.
And you have a new baby, and you want to protect it. It's sacred.
And you want to uphold the challenge part.
Well, I can understand where you're coming from, and I generally agree.
Just allow overlevel for no loot, no xp.

See this all comes down to bragging rights.
I get it, ssg don't want no 10 skull completions out of the box. Cept maybe at 30. And preferably, nothing even over 5 skull, it's supposed to be that hard.
So bragging comes from doing it at level.
And if you allow overlevel 10 skull, then you'll have no bragging rights. Sure you can do 10 skull chrono on capped toons, but you get nothing for it. Other than super tough content. No xp, no drops.?*
Just challenge.

Can you do this for us ssg?
Today's patch is about transition, from the old to the new.
So you're no longer turdbin, youre a stone. Maybe rolling, preferably standing. So stand up and do it different. Get out of the old groupthink. Listen to your feedback. And take a different tack.

I think the nerf to hurl is needed. Keep it.
But I think the trees are uninspired.
Poor melees.?*
Time for us all to cast.
Isnt this how it is though? That all mmos favor the mages?
I mean it's all about the magic right?
I see melee getting marginal increases, and all the love going to casters.
I would either double the weapons and tank, or half the spells.

I realize this is a difficult implementation.
Sounds like you pulled an all nighter.
And things still aren't working...
Ya, and the complainers speak first and loudest.
But with this over level thing I do think you have missed target.
I was looking forward to running epic skulls on a capped character.
That's where it's at right?
But now to tr through reaper? Sure for survival points and xp.
But when I get to cap I want to play. Play hard and see what this new challenge brings. Not bloody likely.
But here's the caveat.?*
If you introduce an endgame this year, then maybe where you're at could be considered forward thinking. That you will implement the vision. But as it stands, people are bored and wanted a challenge.
And you've just told them get back on the hamster wheel.
You may lose some, and not draw others.

Tldr
So please reconsider overlevel. No xp, no points, no loot.
Just challenge and fun.

JOTMON
01-25-2017, 08:58 AM
+1

Its hard to think what was the decision making behind this one. Funny, my guildy told me they would find a way to mess this up, because they always do. I'm so peve'd right now. The only light at the end of the gloomy tunnel is that this lockout rubbish gets canned. Absolute joke. Its such a bad idea it makes my head hurt thinking about it.

Players for the most part couldn't care less about difficulty while leveling, they just want to get it done as fast as possible. It also wasn't the TR crowd that made all the noise about getting a new difficulty to begin with, it was the endgame crowd that has had bugger all to do for the past several years. Now you bring out the second new difficulty attempt after the first failed attempt but make it all about leveling! What the hell? Seriously, its infuriating to imagine you are this out of touch with your players.

+1

Exactly..
Reaper as a challenge for level 30 toons was desirable..
What we are seeing.. couldn't be more off the wrong end of the spectrum..

Low level players can always challenge higher level content.. capped and ready for endgame players are stuck...

Arkai
01-25-2017, 08:59 AM
Mostly interested on the Raven Queen rewards, any clue on these cosmetics?

Epicstorms
01-25-2017, 09:21 AM
I wonder why we can't have both?

There are plenty of players that like to play at level cap. Reaper is the opportunity to let these players also in on the fun, and this does not.

I understand the above reasoning, but the solution you provide I think would not make things better.
Could it be a good alternative to not only let the XP reduce per level, but also the loot chances?

For example:
Playing at level: 100% XP + 100% Improved loot chances (So full chance on reaper bonuses, 'full' extra chance on named loot, etc)
Playing at +1 level: 100% XP + 100% loot
Playing at +2 level: 100% XP + 100% loot
Playing at +3 level: 75% XP + 80% loot
Playing at +4 level: 50% XP + 60% loot
Playing at +5 level: 25% XP + 40% loot
Playing at +6 level or higher: 0% XP + 40% loot
(Perhaps remove the 40% loot chance if you play heroic quests on an epic toon, so that level capped players can only get improved loot in epic levels, not heroic)

Meaning that you won't get the extra XP (and also no reaper XP) but still 40% of these improved loot chances if you play it overlevel.
This would both encourage players to both play reaper at level, but also has some fun for those at level cap.

Edit: Maybe let the XP cap at 10% XP if you are too highly overleveled if you play in epics. That way every reaper epic quest could still yield a small amount of XP, else you still miss out on a lot of content.

Could someone please tell me what you guys do not like of this idea?

I personally really like it as it still gives a reason to play epic quests (even ones such as GH) at level cap but with reduced drop chances and no XP.
I also do not see anyone play reaper outside the 28-30 region if the XP AND loot would be reduced to nothing. Perhaps maybe the very hardcore people, but those are very few I think?

(Of course the numbers and ranges can be changed, but it's the main idea)

Xaxx
01-25-2017, 09:26 AM
What I would love to know is why they didnt just introduce individual reaper skull lockout based on quest cr. If your 3 cr over you are locked out of lower than 3 skull. If your 10 cr over your locked out of under 10 skull. If your 11 cr over your locked out period. This keeps people from strait out overpowering something for their farming purposes but leaving quests open that if people want to play with a certifiable edge.

Cause lets face it most of the 10 skull videos put up from lamania where people were 8 or 10 levels over certainly wouldnt be considered farmable.

But no they went the typical lets just swath the whole thing for no reason outside we said so when another system leaves so much more open to people and would address their biggest concern.

Kebtid
01-25-2017, 09:45 AM
you are so wrong..

a good Warlock performed well in knocking off single kills..

Sorcs destroy warlock when it comes to mass grouping kills.

Idk, dual auras with helball and energy burst seemed to do just fine for mass killing in all content we have avalable now, and the single target is what matterd where sorc falls far behind.
A enchant sorc has really good aoe clear i totally agree on that, but warlocks singletarget is far more ahead then sorcs aoe /if we compare those 2 relatively.

(doubt you dont agree that sorcs trees are so outdated that its painfull and they never got their third prestige, its actually savant + ekdritch knight, whilest wlock got all 3 of his in his release)

Requiro
01-25-2017, 09:46 AM
The most obvious reasons for the level restriction is because it would make it too easy for characters to farm Reaper and Mythic bonuses on named items from quests, and since Reaper provides additional XP, folks would be overly incentivized to run under-level quests on Reaper, particularly since being significantly overlevel would diminish the challenge the Reaper difficulty provided. Additionally, since the drop rate of named items is higher on Reaper, it would further encourage over-level characters to run under-level quests on Reaper.

If the main reason for wanting the level restriction removed is a wider diversity of quests for top-level characters, would people be happy if we removed the restriction but also removed the XP, Reaper/Mythic bonuses, increased drop rate, and other benefits from an under-level quest being run on Reaper, but otherwise allowed entry? Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.

Remember that Reaper difficulty is not an end game nor specifically high-level activity, but is rather an option through the leveling process.

Yes, but a little smother.

HEROIC:
3 level above: 50% benefits
4 level above: 0% benefits

EPIC:
3 level above: 75% benefits
4 level above: 50% benefits
5 level above: 25% benefits
6 level above: 0% benefits

EPIC characters can join HEROIC quests, but with always 0% benefits (Ordinary Elite Quest with extra pain)

Mellkor
01-25-2017, 09:51 AM
I see merit to the system with over-level restrictions as implemented. I also think it will be little utilized via pugging, however, it could be great as a planned thing or a guild thing and could maybe add a lot fellowship to the game, a much needed aspect of pnp D&D that is sorely lacking in DDO these days.

I also think a level 30 option should be included (with no restrictions to xp or loot) for all quests. This, for me, would add a great deal of interest and fun at level cap. Make it the 11th skull. (Or maybe 11 to 20 skulls) Level 30 (or level 28 to 30 maybe) required to enter the 11th and up skull. This, IMO, would give all players an interest in Reaper for many reasons, such as want of loot (better versions than normal), want of a challenge (bragging rights with unique reaper cosmetics), or want of character advancement (assuming the core reaper abilities apply in non reaper). Take away any one of these 3 and interest in reaper will rapidly diminish. This way there is something it it for all.

-JR

cave_diver
01-25-2017, 10:19 AM
When reaper was initially proposed, I was super excited as I imagined most, if not all quests scaled to a lvl 30 + character and being super difficult. Loot was not really an issue, some incentive is cool but not the point for me...i wanted to play The Pit as if it was a super high level super hard quest.

Then Lam comes out and I find that quest are scaled to the original level, I say to myself, mehhh but it is still cool, maybe one time I'll level up in reaper and and there are always older raids which got boring (i.e.: too easy) as a lvl 30 that I can have fun running again ( looking at you CITW, Von5/6, DQ, LOB etc....). In fact you cant even run TOD at the original lvl 20 as you are considered epic at that point, and if you want a TOD set with mythic & reaper bonuses you have to run it at 19. LMAO....not that TOD sets are any good anymore, anyhow.

Now I find out I cant run my favorite toons in these quests in Reaper as there is a lock-out. This is a total fail, I'm done Tr'ing, I have all my ETR's, ITR's, & TR's what am i going to do now? Guess it will be less play time on the computer and more outdoor stuff.....Thanks Turbine....err SSG you made a healthy improvement in my lifestyle through your lack of vision & customer understanding.

Rys
01-25-2017, 10:41 AM
Remember that Reaper difficulty is not an end game nor specifically high-level activity, but is rather an option through the leveling process.

If I would knew that Reaper is a new difficulty for a TR wheel I would digress from giving any kind of feedback on it. I thought this supposed to give us an end game and I was looking forward to running at the cap some older quests and mainly raids that would be brought up on par with the legendary difficulty and possible higher. I am not gonna TR for this. I don't like TRing. I was waiting for things that we can do at the cap. You opened so many possibilities and closed it right after.

I have noticed an idea in this thread that I was probably missing the whole time. To scale all quests to level 30. It would be awesome.

And to you all here saying we would be running underlevel quests like noobs who don't want any challenge, you can go frack yourself.

Morroiel
01-25-2017, 10:44 AM
If I would knew that Reaper is a new difficulty for a TR wheel I would digress from giving any kind of feedback on it. I thought this supposed to give us an end game and I was looking forward to running at the cap some older quests and mainly raids that would be brought up on par with the legendary difficulty and possible higher. I am not gonna TR for this. I don't like TRing. I was waiting for things that we can do at the cap. You opened so many possibilities and closed it right after.

I have noticed an idea in this thread that I was probably missing the whole time. To scale all quests to level 30. It would be awesome.

And to you all here saying we would be running underlevel quests like noobs who doesn't want any challenge, you can go frack yourself.

I agree. This bait and switch might finally get me to cancel my sub and do something productive with my "game time".

AMADHA
01-25-2017, 10:46 AM
[UPDATE 4: ... In addition, we are aware that there is an issue with the patching via the launcher that some players are encountering which is preventing them from updating Lammania. We are currently in the process of assessing the possibility of updating the preview build with those changes that should have already been in it and working towards a resolution of the patching issue. We'll keep you posted.]



I'm one of those with the patching issue. So technically, it's not available yet? Very sad.

Steve_Howe
01-25-2017, 10:55 AM
You dont have a single person on these forums agreeing with your logic (which is rare for everyone to agree) re: level limits for Reaper content.

I agree with the logic...WHOLEHEARTEDLY!

Cocomajobo
01-25-2017, 11:04 AM
We are officially prepping an update to the preview that will, if nothing goes wrong (which, as I am sure you are aware by now is NEVER a sure thing with a preview build especially on short notice as this one is) will be available late this afternoon or early this evening EST.

The OP has been updated to reflect this.

Cocomajobo
01-25-2017, 11:14 AM
The preview update we are hoping to get out later today should include:
~ The issue causing some people not to be able to patch their Lammania client should be resolved.
~ Champions. Titles now appear when overhead health bars are visible.
~ Reaper Enhancements spend cannot go negative.
~ When you get Reaper XP the Tree UI closes the Reaper Enhancements window.
~ The Reaper Tree UI will list both your current total Reaper XP and how much Reaper XP you need to gain before gaining your next Reaper Point to spend in the tree.
~ Reaper Enhancements now appear in the enhancements panel in the character sheet. This allows players to drag the active enhancements to their bar for use.
~ Tier 5 exclusivity has been removed for reaper enhancements. (Was never meant to be exclusive)

Again, please note that this is if nothing goes wrong.

cave_diver
01-25-2017, 11:21 AM
The preview update we are hoping to get out later today should include:
~ The issue causing some people not to be able to patch their Lammania client should be resolved.
~ Champions. Titles now appear when overhead health bars are visible.
~ Reaper Enhancements spend cannot go negative.
~ When you get Reaper XP the Tree UI closes the Reaper Enhancements window.
~ The Reaper Tree UI will list both your current total Reaper XP and how much Reaper XP you need to gain before gaining your next Reaper Point to spend in the tree.
~ Reaper Enhancements now appear in the enhancements panel in the character sheet. This allows players to drag the active enhancements to their bar for use.
~ Tier 5 exclusivity has been removed for reaper enhancements. (Was never meant to be exclusive)

Again, please note that this is if nothing goes wrong.


Unfortunately, if there is a level cap....no Lamania testing for me - I only want to play difficult content at cap.....with the limited amount of quests, there is no point. I'll probably will be removing my VIP subscription. Good luck though

DANTEIL
01-25-2017, 11:23 AM
On a completely different topic:


We've adjusted some lighting issues in What Goes Up that could cause overly-bright purple skies.


Praise be! I might be able to run this quest without a headache now!

boredman
01-25-2017, 11:25 AM
I think R1 will be the new xp mode for leveling. If you are doing BB elite already why not add R1 for a +120% xp bonus and some Reaper xp as well? (never mind the named loot with or without reaper bonus effects).

Easy reaper for some easy quests maybe if the xp/min is worth but higher skull reaper (5-10 skulls), where they put most of the challenege, don't think so. Which simply negates the dev intention of bringing reaper difficulties option for heroics when most of his difficulties are just going to be ignored because of the overlevel lockout restriction and because the leveling inefficiency with a very limited number of players at the same lvl range. My point is that without that overlevel lockout at least some ppl could try higher skulls by having a wider range of lvl parties when they join sometimes and want to play some difficult content not thinking mainly about xp but some challenge and fun.

Severlin
01-25-2017, 11:27 AM
There is some good feedback here.

(I am going to comment, and I apologize in advance if the response seems choppy as I will be writing this in stages as today is too busy for me for a variety of reasons to get one long consecutive chunk of time to make a response, and I want to offer timely discussion.)

~ Keeping in mind that everything in the trees outside the cores only work in Reaper, the trees could still use some tweaking. They currently give out maybe too much spell penetration and definitely too many DC increases. As we tweak the trees the cores in particular will lose the boost to DC.

~ To clarify, Reaper mode should be locking characters out of content whose character level is three or more than the base level of the dungeon. That means a cap end character can do level 28+ dungeons on Reaper.

We had good player feedback that Reaper needed a level lock out, so that's one of the reasons we started looking into it. Yes, we are concerned that farming Reaper bonuses for lower level gear defeats the purpose of the system. We also don't want players jumping into Reaper without checking the XP panel and getting no Reaper XP because they were over level. This is particularly a concern since they currently wouldn't see that until they defeat at least 10 enemies.

Lastly, it's easier for us to restrict Reaper mode to prevent potential issues, see how it plays, and relax those restrictions than it is to add restrictions later on.

~ Reaper mode is not designed to replace or act as an end game system. It is there to provide challenge for those who want it, regardless of their level. Of course part of the design intentionally provides end game players with extra challenge for extra rewards, but the Reaper design is not the answer to the end game question.

We have continually - for a number of updates - extended the end game with cap level dungeons. Yes, Reaper mode can make that even more compelling for very powerful builds, but it isn't designed to suddenly provide an endgame. Our end game strategy is to add end game content with most content releases. We have another Legendary raid coming for the next update, for example, and we plan to extend the end game even further with Ravenloft. With more than 10 dungeons, two raids, and the Sentient Weapon system we expect Ravenloft to add a lot of end game content.

~ We will continually add new rewards to the game, and many of those provide opportunities for extra player power. As we add new ways to obtain power, we will add more content to challenge players. This is a designed cadence. More difficulty means more reward. While we agree that we want balanced game play and a consistent sense of cost versus power, avoiding power creep is not really part of our long term design goals.

~ On the Player's Council
Not only is the PC in transition, but the discussion of Reaper mode and the iteration of its features have already moved to the public arena. We usually don't go back to only discussing with the player's council features that have been revealed to the main forums. In other words, don't blame the Player's Council for iterations as we develop Reaper mode.

~ On the design philosophy of splitting the player base:

We have two competing desires.
1.) Provide a wide range of difficulties so everyone can find their niche.
2.) Funnel players into a limited set of difficulties so players are more likely to play with each other.

Both of these are desirable goals, and they conflict. We chose the first as our priority because we'd rather give the players more choices and let them negotiate among themselves the most comfortable difficulty setting rather than providing a limited set of difficulties and force players into accepting a less fun setting so more players end up posting compatible groups.

It is a tough decision but in the end we believe the majority of our players are mature enough to decide among themselves the difficulty that is most fun for them.

Sev~

FranOhmsford
01-25-2017, 11:29 AM
My point is that without that overlevel lockout at least some ppl could try higher skulls by having a wider range of lvl parties when they join and want to play some difficult content not thinking mainly about xp but some challenge and fun.

Excuse me?

Where is the Challenge or Fun in getting some Lvl 15-30 to Power-level you through Reaper 10 Waterworks or Butcher's Path?

All you're thinking about is LOOT and being able to get it!

die
01-25-2017, 11:34 AM
Let me get this strait, we are getting a free update, that gives up as a player base more to do for free? and people are unsatisfied?

I am happy and content.

I will say I was looking forward to running my capped pally through many low level quests that were Reaperfied!

however its free and Im thankful the best MMO I have ever played is still here and I am able to play my toons with my friends still. Thanks Dev's for this update. Keep up the good work.

die
01-25-2017, 11:37 AM
the players looking for it are at lvl 30. the more you know.

I am looking forward to it at all levels, all content is a joke anymore to me and my friends. Will I run it all the time.. pry not.

But my group of friends will run it.

FranOhmsford
01-25-2017, 11:39 AM
~ To clarify, Reaper mode should be locking characters out of content whose character level is three or more than the base level of the dungeon. That means a cap end character can do level 28+ dungeons on Reaper.

We had good player feedback that Reaper needed a level lock out, so that's one of the reasons we started looking into it. Yes, we are concerned that farming Reaper bonuses for lower level gear defeats the purpose of the system. We also don't want players jumping into Reaper without checking the XP panel and getting no Reaper XP because they were over level. This is particularly a concern since they currently wouldn't see that until they defeat at least 10 enemies.

Lastly, it's easier for us to restrict Reaper mode to prevent potential issues, see how it plays, and relax those restrictions than it is to add restrictions later on.



Sev it's great that you've replied and I agree with pretty much everything you've said.

I would only like to reiterate that there are 4 issues with the straight +2 Level above Base Lockout and the Epic Characters cannot enter Reaper Heroics full stop.

I've posted these issues elsewhere but will reiterate them here -

1) If Epic Characters aren't allowed to run ANY Heroic Quest on Reaper will Dreaming Dark count as Epic?

2) By not allowing Lvl 20 characters into Lvl 17-19 Heroic Reapers you will also significantly hurt the Lvl 17-19 Base Lvl Heroic Quests that are already hurting more than most due to Epic Normal XP being so much higher than these give on E-BB!
Lvl 17s especially as people cap 20 even on 3rd Life+ off 16s like Vale, Lords of Dust and Wheloon then go straight to Epics - But with 18s and 19s will Reaper count as Epic? If not it really should!

3) Epics have a wider range for BB than Heroics - They should also have a wider range for Reaper - Why not use the BB system as your Reaper Lockout?

4) Raids - Raids really do need a wider Range to be available and some like Abbot could be difficult enough on even mid level Reaper to pretty much be undoable at 19, heck Abbot might be undoable at 30 on Reaper 10 - Perhaps have Raids be exempt for now from the Lockout and see how it goes?

die
01-25-2017, 11:41 AM
Trying to understand the logic of over level lockout. That must have been a decision you made before you designed loot. Why would you do that? A lot of end game leveling players take pride in leveling with the worst loot because they don't care - the game for them doesn't really start until 30. And that's where they get out the good gear and tweak up. Everything revolves around being the best you can possibly be at 30. Not at 28. Not at 13. Not at any other level. All focus, all those past lives , all the hours farming gear is around level 30. And you've taken all those amazing efforts and put them to one side and said nope, at end game you can only have this percentage of content (and incident this is the same end game content you've been playing the last 5 years).

This shows either a surprising lack of appreciation of how end gamers play, or of end gamers. I'm somewhat surprised this has happened. Who on earth have you got on the PC this year that thought this was a good idea?

So much for old timers coming back. I guess you're focusing on getting new players instead then.


I do agree that the last few years "gear at lower levels" is not needed like it was years ago.. now that we have the ship buffs. But make no mistake my toons are geared to the teeth at all levels. Years of collecting.. what can I say Im a loot ***** :)

Drwaz99
01-25-2017, 11:43 AM
snip

So if we want to stay at cap we do this: one raid, wait until the end of the year by playing the same end game content (so a total of 14-18 months* with virtually the same content), then buy the expansion. Thanks for the heads up. This long term player will check back at the end of the year instead of renewing my VIP I let lapse in December after almost 9.5 years. Reaper almost had me, then this revelation and you absolutely lost me.

*if the expansion is on time and delivers as stated (something that has always been an issue with this team).



Lastly, it's easier for us to restrict Reaper mode to prevent potential issues, see how it plays, and relax those restrictions than it is to add restrictions later on.



And let's be honest here, you very rarely do this in a timely fashion. Or at all.

Reaper will define SSG as its first impression to players. So far, the response has been fairly negative. Is that the precedent you want to set? You have the opportunity to do the right thing, that's not always the easy thing.

boredman
01-25-2017, 11:45 AM
Excuse me?

Where is the Challenge or Fun in getting some Lvl 15-30 to Power-level you through Reaper 10 Waterworks or Butcher's Path?

All you're thinking about is LOOT and being able to get it!

Nope. For example some people (good players but not insane metas) decide to organice a high skull reaper heroic chrono or ts for some challenge and fun, but with the overlevel lockout they only get 2 level range and probably not enough people in the server at the time. If they can extend the level range a bit more there simply will be more options and chance to gather a bigger group, having still the possibility to decide the max level character that can join the lfm (lets say no more than 4 or 5 overlevels if going with a very high skull). There is simple more options with that. (and they will not care if get a heavy xp penalty or even some penalty in drop chances by overleveling since the main reason is not the xp/min but some fun and some challenge in that case, but without having to wait forever to make up a big party)

Mr_Helmet
01-25-2017, 11:49 AM
I agree. This bait and switch might finally get me to cancel my sub and do something productive with my "game time".

Based on last night's Teamspeak conversation, I see a spike in gym memberships when this goes live.

(At leas until Star Citizen ships :) )

FranOhmsford
01-25-2017, 11:50 AM
Nope. For example some people (good players but not insane metas) decide to organice a high skull reaper heroic chrono or ts for some challenge and fun, but with the overlevel lockout they only get 2 level range and probably not enough people in the server at the time. If they can extend the level range a bit more there simply will be more options and chance to gather a bigger group, having still the possibility to decide the max level character that can join the lfm (lets say no more than 4 or 5 overlevels if going with a very high skull). There is simple more options with that. (and they will not care if get a heavy xp penaly by overleveling since the main reason is the fun and some challenge in that case)

Uh no - There's a max level lockout but I don't see a min level lockout!

Why only 2 levels - You can do Tempest's Spine 9-12 or 8-12 or even 7-12 - This is about CHALLENGING ONESELF! Or are you too scared to have a Lvl 7 with you in Reaper Tempest's Spine or a Lvl 4 join your Reaper Chronoscope?

Wizza
01-25-2017, 11:53 AM
~ To clarify, Reaper mode should be locking characters out of content whose character level is three or more than the base level of the dungeon. That means a cap end character can do level 28+ dungeons on Reaper.

We had good player feedback that Reaper needed a level lock out, so that's one of the reasons we started looking into it. Yes, we are concerned that farming Reaper bonuses for lower level gear defeats the purpose of the system. We also don't want players jumping into Reaper without checking the XP panel and getting no Reaper XP because they were over level. This is particularly a concern since they currently wouldn't see that until they defeat at least 10 enemies.

Lastly, it's easier for us to restrict Reaper mode to prevent potential issues, see how it plays, and relax those restrictions than it is to add restrictions later on.

~ Reaper mode is not designed to replace or act as an end game system. It is there to provide challenge for those who want it, regardless of their level. Of course part of the design intentionally provides end game players with extra challenge for extra rewards, but the Reaper design is not the answer to the end game question.

We have continually - for a number of updates - extended the end game with cap level dungeons. Yes, Reaper mode can make that even more compelling for very powerful builds, but it isn't designed to suddenly provide an endgame. Our end game strategy is to add end game content with most content releases. We have another Legendary raid coming for the next update, for example, and we plan to extend the end game even further with Ravenloft. With more than 10 dungeons, two raids, and the Sentient Weapon system we expect Ravenloft to add a lot of end game content.

~ We will continually add new rewards to the game, and many of those provide opportunities for extra player power. As we add new ways to obtain power, we will add more content to challenge players. This is a designed cadence. More difficulty means more reward. While we agree that we want balanced game play and a consistent sense of cost versus power, avoiding power creep is not really part of our long term design goals.

It is a tough decision but in the end we believe the majority of our players are mature enough to decide among themselves the difficulty that is most fun for them.

Sev~

Every single player at cap was against the lockout, as shown in this thread, except for the very few voices in obvious minority. Where was exactly this feedback, in the previous Lamannia builds, that Reaper needed an overlevel mechanic? No really, can you actually point to us where this was shown? Honest question.

Either way, this just killed Reaper for me. And I was one of the few who actually wanted Reaper to be harder, to challenge us even more, because I was looking forward to it.

die
01-25-2017, 11:55 AM
There is some good feedback here.

(I am going to comment, and I apologize in advance if the response seems choppy as I will be writing this in stages as today is too busy for me for a variety of reasons to get one long consecutive chunk of time to make a response, and I want to offer timely discussion.)

~ Keeping in mind that everything in the trees outside the cores only work in Reaper, the trees could still use some tweaking. They currently give out maybe too much spell penetration and definitely too many DC increases. As we tweak the trees the cores in particular will lose the boost to DC.

~ To clarify, Reaper mode should be locking characters out of content whose character level is three or more than the base level of the dungeon. That means a cap end character can do level 28+ dungeons on Reaper.

We had good player feedback that Reaper needed a level lock out, so that's one of the reasons we started looking into it. Yes, we are concerned that farming Reaper bonuses for lower level gear defeats the purpose of the system. We also don't want players jumping into Reaper without checking the XP panel and getting no Reaper XP because they were over level. This is particularly a concern since they currently wouldn't see that until they defeat at least 10 enemies.

Lastly, it's easier for us to restrict Reaper mode to prevent potential issues, see how it plays, and relax those restrictions than it is to add restrictions later on.

~ Reaper mode is not designed to replace or act as an end game system. It is there to provide challenge for those who want it, regardless of their level. Of course part of the design intentionally provides end game players with extra challenge for extra rewards, but the Reaper design is not the answer to the end game question.

We have continually - for a number of updates - extended the end game with cap level dungeons. Yes, Reaper mode can make that even more compelling for very powerful builds, but it isn't designed to suddenly provide an endgame. Our end game strategy is to add end game content with most content releases. We have another Legendary raid coming for the next update, for example, and we plan to extend the end game even further with Ravenloft. With more than 10 dungeons, two raids, and the Sentient Weapon system we expect Ravenloft to add a lot of end game content.

~ We will continually add new rewards to the game, and many of those provide opportunities for extra player power. As we add new ways to obtain power, we will add more content to challenge players. This is a designed cadence. More difficulty means more reward. While we agree that we want balanced game play and a consistent sense of cost versus power, avoiding power creep is not really part of our long term design goals.

~ On the Player's Council
Not only is the PC in transition, but the discussion of Reaper mode and the iteration of its features have already moved to the public arena. We usually don't go back to only discussing with the player's council features that have been revealed to the main forums. In other words, don't blame the Player's Council for iterations as we develop Reaper mode.

~ On the design philosophy of splitting the player base:

We have two competing desires.
1.) Provide a wide range of difficulties so everyone can find their niche.
2.) Funnel players into a limited set of difficulties so players are more likely to play with each other.

Both of these are desirable goals, and they conflict. We chose the first as our priority because we'd rather give the players more choices and let them negotiate among themselves the most comfortable difficulty setting rather than providing a limited set of difficulties and force players into accepting a less fun setting so more players end up posting compatible groups.

It is a tough decision but in the end we believe the majority of our players are mature enough to decide among themselves the difficulty that is most fun for them.

Sev~

Kick Ass Sev, I cant wait. This is going to be a good year for DDO!

Qhualor
01-25-2017, 11:56 AM
I have serious questions

1. How many players complaining about limited content at cap with the Reaper level restriction actually are playing at cap?

2. How long have you been at cap?

3. Is there no reason to TR/IR/ER left to increase playing more Reaper quests?

4. Not interested in starting new characters or have other characters still leveling?

5. Is the interest to remove the Reaper 2 level restriction to run any content you want purely for the challenge in any content you want or for some other reason? In other words, is it for challenge and fun or is it for rewards or both?

Vanhooger
01-25-2017, 11:56 AM
There is some good feedback here.

(I am going to comment, and I apologize in advance if the response seems choppy as I will be writing this in stages as today is too busy for me for a variety of reasons to get one long consecutive chunk of time to make a response, and I want to offer timely discussion.)

~ Keeping in mind that everything in the trees outside the cores only work in Reaper, the trees could still use some tweaking. They currently give out maybe too much spell penetration and definitely too many DC increases. As we tweak the trees the cores in particular will lose the boost to DC.

~ To clarify, Reaper mode should be locking characters out of content whose character level is three or more than the base level of the dungeon. That means a cap end character can do level 28+ dungeons on Reaper.

We had good player feedback that Reaper needed a level lock out, so that's one of the reasons we started looking into it. Yes, we are concerned that farming Reaper bonuses for lower level gear defeats the purpose of the system. We also don't want players jumping into Reaper without checking the XP panel and getting no Reaper XP because they were over level. This is particularly a concern since they currently wouldn't see that until they defeat at least 10 enemies.

Lastly, it's easier for us to restrict Reaper mode to prevent potential issues, see how it plays, and relax those restrictions than it is to add restrictions later on.

~ Reaper mode is not designed to replace or act as an end game system. It is there to provide challenge for those who want it, regardless of their level. Of course part of the design intentionally provides end game players with extra challenge for extra rewards, but the Reaper design is not the answer to the end game question.

We have continually - for a number of updates - extended the end game with cap level dungeons. Yes, Reaper mode can make that even more compelling for very powerful builds, but it isn't designed to suddenly provide an endgame. Our end game strategy is to add end game content with most content releases. We have another Legendary raid coming for the next update, for example, and we plan to extend the end game even further with Ravenloft. With more than 10 dungeons, two raids, and the Sentient Weapon system we expect Ravenloft to add a lot of end game content.

~ We will continually add new rewards to the game, and many of those provide opportunities for extra player power. As we add new ways to obtain power, we will add more content to challenge players. This is a designed cadence. More difficulty means more reward. While we agree that we want balanced game play and a consistent sense of cost versus power, avoiding power creep is not really part of our long term design goals.

~ On the Player's Council
Not only is the PC in transition, but the discussion of Reaper mode and the iteration of its features have already moved to the public arena. We usually don't go back to only discussing with the player's council features that have been revealed to the main forums. In other words, don't blame the Player's Council for iterations as we develop Reaper mode.

~ On the design philosophy of splitting the player base:

We have two competing desires.
1.) Provide a wide range of difficulties so everyone can find their niche.
2.) Funnel players into a limited set of difficulties so players are more likely to play with each other.

Both of these are desirable goals, and they conflict. We chose the first as our priority because we'd rather give the players more choices and let them negotiate among themselves the most comfortable difficulty setting rather than providing a limited set of difficulties and force players into accepting a less fun setting so more players end up posting compatible groups.

It is a tough decision but in the end we believe the majority of our players are mature enough to decide among themselves the difficulty that is most fun for them.

Sev~

I don't get why we need xp in reaper...why? Who cares about xp? We have millions way to get XP.

I bet most people that tested reaper on Lama are guys who look for endgame, and they all will be diasppointed I guess.

You just lost me as a long time customer (2006) with the false expectation of giving us an end game challenge that I was waiting for so long, thanks.

I am not going to wait another full year to get few "end game" quest. Good luck.

Sick of running 5 quest over and over again, as it is the DDO end game, lol.

I had a hope for this game after SSG took place, but whatever...

boredman
01-25-2017, 11:58 AM
Uh no - There's a max level lockout but I don't see a min level lockout!

Why only 2 levels - You can do Tempest's Spine 9-12 or 8-12 or even 7-12 - This is about CHALLENGING ONESELF! Or are you too scared to have a Lvl 7 with you in Reaper Tempest's Spine or a Lvl 4 join your Reaper Chronoscope?

If you want max challenge you (or party leader) simply can restrict the lfm or invites lvl range on 10 skulls (good luck getting the party at lvl for that), but having other options simply brings more to the playerbase.

FranOhmsford
01-25-2017, 12:04 PM
If you want max challenge you (or party leader) simply can restrict the lfm or invites lvl range on 10 skulls (good luck getting the party at lvl for that), but having other options simply brings more to the playerbase.

You're the one restricting the options here - I proposed up to a 6 level spread with 7-12 but you're insisting on a 3 level spread of 10-12!

The whole point of Reaper is to Challenge Players who want that Challenge - If you're not up to the Challenge then Reaper isn't for you - It's not for me either and I'm very glad of that because I don't want to be forced into Reaper! It's bad enough that I have to run Elite!

JOTMON
01-25-2017, 12:07 PM
I have serious questions

1. How many players complaining about limited content at cap with the Reaper level restriction actually are playing at cap?

2. How long have you been at cap?

3. Is there no reason to TR/IR/ER left to increase playing more Reaper quests?

4. Not interested in starting new characters or have other characters still leveling?

5. Is the interest to remove the Reaper 2 level restriction to run any content you want purely for the challenge in any content you want or for some other reason? In other words, is it for challenge and fun or is it for rewards or both?

1. me. and everyone else that has been waiting for more level 30+ content since long before Reaper was even mentioned..
2. Jan 2016.. on several toons
3. nope
4. already have 30 toons on my main account, 10 of them are at cap, 2 are near 3x triple completionists(got the lives I wanted), a third is closing in on completionist. the other 20 are mix of partial TR's, experimental builds, packmules and level parked toons to play with friends(casual players who will never want to play reaper).
What I want is more endgame.
5. Reaper 2 level lockout is asinine, especially considering they did not lockout non-reaper.. so Von5 Elite 20-30.. np... but Reaper Von5.. locked out...
If they were going to implement lockouts it should have been across the board for all difficulties. not just Reaper.

Xaxx
01-25-2017, 12:09 PM
Excuse me?

Where is the Challenge or Fun in getting some Lvl 15-30 to Power-level you through Reaper 10 Waterworks or Butcher's Path?

All you're thinking about is LOOT and being able to get it!


You know what the hamster wheel that keeps mmos running is.... grinding. Grinding xp, grinding loot as the main two. So OF COURSE with an mmo your thinking about loot and being denied access to it so thoroughly with the 2 level cr stuff instead of a sliding scale turning up dificulty and lessening chance of loot as you go up cr after cr over level is just the lazy way out. By all means fran go hit a few other mmos and their forums and then start telling them that they are locked out of old loot because they're two levels over it and see what happens. I would have thought that even you would have gotten that concept.

FranOhmsford
01-25-2017, 12:13 PM
You know what the hamster wheel that keeps mmos running is.... grinding. Grinding xp, grinding loot as the main two. So OF COURSE with an mmo your thinking about loot and being denied access to it so thoroughly with the 2 level cr stuff instead of a sliding scale turning up dificulty and lessening chance of loot as you go up cr after cr over level is just the lazy way out. By all means fran go hit a few other mmos and their forums and then start telling them that they are locked out of old loot because they're two levels over it and see what happens. I would have thought that even you would have gotten that concept.

The point of Reaper is CHALLENGE!

Adding yet more Grind is the Opposite of how Reaper should work - People have been crying out for a more Challenging difficulty but when you get it all you do is whinge that it's not grindable!

I give up, I really do!

The Devs need to say enough is enough - You asked for a Challenge, we're giving you a Challenge, Take it or Leave it!

Epicstorms
01-25-2017, 12:13 PM
-___-

Atleast make it +4 for epics then, just like with bravery streaks ?

Rys
01-25-2017, 12:14 PM
~ To clarify, Reaper mode should be locking characters out of content whose character level is three or more than the base level of the dungeon. That means a cap end character can do level 28+ dungeons on Reaper.

We had good player feedback that Reaper needed a level lock out, so that's one of the reasons we started looking into it. Yes, we are concerned that farming Reaper bonuses for lower level gear defeats the purpose of the system. We also don't want players jumping into Reaper without checking the XP panel and getting no Reaper XP because they were over level. This is particularly a concern since they currently wouldn't see that until they defeat at least 10 enemies.

~ Reaper mode is not designed to replace or act as an end game system. It is there to provide challenge for those who want it, regardless of their level. Of course part of the design intentionally provides end game players with extra challenge for extra rewards, but the Reaper design is not the answer to the end game question.

Sev~

You lost me. It could have been an answer to the end game question easily. Instead it is again log for the new update, play one new quest or raid for one week, break until the next update. I honestly hope you noticed who have been playing reaper on Lamannia and giving you the feedback on it. I can give you a hint. Not the people who are constantly on a hamster wheel. Completely missed your target group.

Wizza
01-25-2017, 12:16 PM
You lost me. It could have been an answer to the end game question easily. Instead it is again log for the new update, play one new quest or raid for one week, break until the next update. I honestly hope you noticed who have been giving you the feedback on reaper and who was actually playing the reaper on Lamannia. I can give you a hint. Not people who are constantly on a hamster wheel.

So much this.

Vanhooger
01-25-2017, 12:17 PM
So much this.
Same here. But I guess any other word here is wasted time.

boredman
01-25-2017, 12:17 PM
You're the one restricting the options here - I proposed up to a 6 level spread with 7-12 but you're insisting on a 3 level spread of 10-12!

The whole point of Reaper is to Challenge Players who want that Challenge - If you're not up to the Challenge then Reaper isn't for you - It's not for me either and I'm very glad of that because I don't want to be forced into Reaper! It's bad enough that I have to run Elite!

7-12 could be 7-15 and more options there. but bringing lvl 7 or very underlevel toon into a high skull reaper tempest spine or lvl 12 raid is just (how to say it lol) NOT FUN, thats why I insist in 2 lvl range 10-12 is obviously logical in this case. But again 10-12 could be 10-15 and bring more options if needed or accepted. Sure, you COULD ALWAYS RESTRICT PARTY LEVEL RANGE TO MAX LVL 12 FOR MAX CHALLENGE if desired, but much better that you can do that as a party leader option and not getting forced by the game.

Drwaz99
01-25-2017, 12:18 PM
I have serious questions

1. How many players complaining about limited content at cap with the Reaper level restriction actually are playing at cap?

2. How long have you been at cap?

3. Is there no reason to TR/IR/ER left to increase playing more Reaper quests?

4. Not interested in starting new characters or have other characters still leveling?

5. Is the interest to remove the Reaper 2 level restriction to run any content you want purely for the challenge in any content you want or for some other reason? In other words, is it for challenge and fun or is it for rewards or both?

1. I have 4 toons at cap waiting for stuff to do. Different stuff than I have been doing since Slavers came out.

2. Over a year. A few ITR's mixed in to pick up Gnome PL's.

3. 2 are triple/triple/triple completionists the other 2 have all the past lives I want (casters for example, don't need melee PL's but they are heroic completionists).

4. I've spent nearly 10 years leveling toons and TR'ing. I want to see fruit of my labors. I'm burned out on the TR/new toon cycle.

5. Mostly for fun and challenge, but sometimes I want to do something that is a bit easier if I am trying to kill and hour or so but EE/LE's at tend to be too easy and not to mention now boring (after running them time and time again). I'd like to be able to mix it up and play a much harder lower level epic for the change of scenery. Lower level epic gear with Mythic/Reaper bonuses doesn't interest me whatsoever. It'd be cool to pull on the off chance I need to TR/ITR/ETR again one day for a new race/iconic, but I won't be farming for them. The thought of higher reaper heroic/lower 20's raids as was enticing. Now I'm just relegated to running the same quests I've been running since Sept (Slavers came out) and before until the end of the year. That's just not going to cut it.

cave_diver
01-25-2017, 12:19 PM
We had good player feedback that Reaper needed a level lock out, so that's one of the reasons we started looking into it. Yes, we are concerned that farming Reaper bonuses for lower level gear defeats the purpose of the system. We also don't want players jumping into Reaper without checking the XP panel and getting no Reaper XP because they were over level. This is particularly a concern since they currently wouldn't see that until they defeat at least 10 enemies.

I wanted a re-entry lockout not level lockout. I don't want people rentering after repairing, getting spell points back. I wanted Reaper to make trival higher level content difficult again..

Morroiel
01-25-2017, 12:19 PM
You've lost my VIP sub because of this.

JOTMON
01-25-2017, 12:22 PM
The point of Reaper is CHALLENGE!

Adding yet more Grind is the Opposite of how Reaper should work - People have been crying out for a more Challenging difficulty but when you get it all you do is whinge that it's not grindable!

I give up, I really do!

The Devs need to say enough is enough - You asked for a Challenge, we're giving you a Challenge, Take it or Leave it!

Take the blinders off.. veteran Players asked for ENDGAME challenge.. not basic and beginner level stuff that we TR life through for optimal XP to get back to cap.
We wanted meat we could sink our teeth into you gave us something from the other end.

Mr_Helmet
01-25-2017, 12:23 PM
I wanted a re-entry lockout not level lockout. I don't want people rentering after repairing, getting spell points back. I wanted Reaper to make trival higher level content difficult again..

OMG . . . did SSG read "re-entry lockout" as "level-range lockout" as their "feedback?"

I would say I've seen more foolish stuff happen, but I'd be lying.

Kebtid
01-25-2017, 12:23 PM
You lost me. It could have been an answer to the end game question easily. Instead it is again log for the new update, play one new quest or raid for one week, break until the next update. I honestly hope you noticed who have been playing reaper on Lamannia and giving you the feedback on it. I can give you a hint. Not the people who are constantly on a hamster wheel. Completely missed your target group.


So much this.


Same here. But I guess any other word here is wasted time.


I fully agree with the above gentleman.

Gilga1
01-25-2017, 12:24 PM
Well... this is my first post here :)

I tested reaper and I was really excited.
I don't want xp, I don't want rewards... I just want to play my capped and maxed toons and have fun.
I farmed all the PLs and the best equip... for what?
Please remove reaper xp and rewards and the level lockout. Let endgamers run every quest in reaper.

cave_diver
01-25-2017, 12:25 PM
You lost me. It could have been an answer to the end game question easily. Instead it is again log for the new update, play one new quest or raid for one week, break until the next update. I honestly hope you noticed who have been playing reaper on Lamannia and giving you the feedback on it. I can give you a hint. Not the people who are constantly on a hamster wheel. Completely missed your target group.

This

FranOhmsford
01-25-2017, 12:27 PM
7-12 could be 7-15 and more options there. but bringing lvl 7 or very underlevel toon into a high skull reaper tempest spine or lvl 12 raid is just (how to say it lol) NOT FUN, thats why I insist in 2 lvl range 10-12 is obviously logical in this case. But again 10-12 could be 10-15 and bring more options if needed or accepted. Sure, you COULD ALWAYS RESTRICT PARTY LEVEL RANGE TO MAX LVL 12 FOR MAX CHALLENGE if desired, but much better that you can do that as a party leader option and not getting forced by the game.

You're not getting it!

There's less Challenge with Lvl 15s allowed in Party for Tempest's Spine than with Max Lvl 12!

The Devs WANT TO GIVE US A CHALLENGE!

If they allow the Players to choose the Level Range they are comfortable at then that's NOT a Challenge! The Players won't pick a Challenging difficulty! You've just proved this with your inability to allow anyone under Lvl 10 to join your Reaper TS Group!

Chances are any Lvl 9 that actually hits that Group will be pretty sure that they can contribute to that Group AND you're just as likely to get a Lvl 15 newbie incapable of contributing {in fact perhaps more likely} in your 10-15 than I am a Lvl 7 newbie incapable of contributing in my 7-12!
Newbies tend to wait that bit longer, to want to be at the highest level before running something - Those who aren't are generally dragged into content they're not capable in by a friend, guildie or pug!

Mr_Helmet
01-25-2017, 12:29 PM
You're not getting it!

How much time have you spent in reaper?

cave_diver
01-25-2017, 12:29 PM
OMG . . . did SSG read "re-entry lockout" as "level-range lockout" as their "feedback?"

I would say I've seen more foolish stuff happen, but I'd be lying.

Your lying/or stating alternative facts...don't you remember when Turbine forgot to renew their domain......that was classic.

Mr_Helmet
01-25-2017, 12:30 PM
You've lost my VIP sub because of this.

A bit premature, but i know the feeling

Mr_Helmet
01-25-2017, 12:30 PM
Your lying/or stating alternative facts...don't you remember when Turbine forgot to renew their domain......that was classic.

But that was Turbine, not SSG :P

Sam-u-r-eye
01-25-2017, 12:32 PM
There is some good feedback here.

(I am going to comment, and I apologize in advance if the response seems choppy as I will be writing this in stages as today is too busy for me for a variety of reasons to get one long consecutive chunk of time to make a response, and I want to offer timely discussion.)

~ Keeping in mind that everything in the trees outside the cores only work in Reaper, the trees could still use some tweaking. They currently give out maybe too much spell penetration and definitely too many DC increases. As we tweak the trees the cores in particular will lose the boost to DC.

~ To clarify, Reaper mode should be locking characters out of content whose character level is three or more than the base level of the dungeon. That means a cap end character can do level 28+ dungeons on Reaper.

We had good player feedback that Reaper needed a level lock out, so that's one of the reasons we started looking into it. Yes, we are concerned that farming Reaper bonuses for lower level gear defeats the purpose of the system. We also don't want players jumping into Reaper without checking the XP panel and getting no Reaper XP because they were over level. This is particularly a concern since they currently wouldn't see that until they defeat at least 10 enemies.

Lastly, it's easier for us to restrict Reaper mode to prevent potential issues, see how it plays, and relax those restrictions than it is to add restrictions later on.

~ Reaper mode is not designed to replace or act as an end game system. It is there to provide challenge for those who want it, regardless of their level. Of course part of the design intentionally provides end game players with extra challenge for extra rewards, but the Reaper design is not the answer to the end game question.

We have continually - for a number of updates - extended the end game with cap level dungeons. Yes, Reaper mode can make that even more compelling for very powerful builds, but it isn't designed to suddenly provide an endgame. Our end game strategy is to add end game content with most content releases. We have another Legendary raid coming for the next update, for example, and we plan to extend the end game even further with Ravenloft. With more than 10 dungeons, two raids, and the Sentient Weapon system we expect Ravenloft to add a lot of end game content.

~ We will continually add new rewards to the game, and many of those provide opportunities for extra player power. As we add new ways to obtain power, we will add more content to challenge players. This is a designed cadence. More difficulty means more reward. While we agree that we want balanced game play and a consistent sense of cost versus power, avoiding power creep is not really part of our long term design goals.

~ On the Player's Council
Not only is the PC in transition, but the discussion of Reaper mode and the iteration of its features have already moved to the public arena. We usually don't go back to only discussing with the player's council features that have been revealed to the main forums. In other words, don't blame the Player's Council for iterations as we develop Reaper mode.

~ On the design philosophy of splitting the player base:

We have two competing desires.
1.) Provide a wide range of difficulties so everyone can find their niche.
2.) Funnel players into a limited set of difficulties so players are more likely to play with each other.

Both of these are desirable goals, and they conflict. We chose the first as our priority because we'd rather give the players more choices and let them negotiate among themselves the most comfortable difficulty setting rather than providing a limited set of difficulties and force players into accepting a less fun setting so more players end up posting compatible groups.

It is a tough decision but in the end we believe the majority of our players are mature enough to decide among themselves the difficulty that is most fun for them.

Sev~

A compromise would enable people to enjoy the wide berth of content this game has to offer on a higher difficulty. Your hype was the adventure and excitement open to experiencing the game anew.People like staying at cap. WHY? They have the understanding that their hamster wheel is done. That's why they stay at cap. These people need an option to enjoy their toon at that level. This was your hype. People don't like hamster wheels---they like adventure and excitement. This is the main source of the unanimous angst in this thread.

You are getting very negative feedback and not offering a compromise. This is not good my friend. There is a major philosophy difference between you and the group you're selling this to. Don't you see the above? Why do you care about loot? Why do you care about XP? We don't care about those things. We are the people you are giving this to.

This reminds me of the discussion about the multiplier for Paladins and Holy Sword. You guys aren't hearing the music from the noise. You'll have to go back and change reaper if you go forward with it like this. Better to give us a reasonable compromise that satisfies people now.

Honestly you could delete all the rewards. Most of the people interested in Reaper don't like a hamster wheel. Believe it or not we can go play WOW or EQ or a variety of other games. They have massive hamster wheels. Don't try to compete with them! This game is not a hamster wheel. Its D&D inspired. It has a sense of adventure.

FranOhmsford
01-25-2017, 12:32 PM
Take the blinders off.. veteran Players asked for ENDGAME challenge.. not basic and beginner level stuff that we TR life through for optimal XP to get back to cap.
We wanted meat we could sink our teeth into you gave us something from the other end.

You have 25 Quests to run and Multiple Raids at End-Game on whatever Reaper difficulty you can manage AND THAT'S JUST FOR A START!

Maybe at least try to complete those 25 Quests and Multiple Raids a few times while fully contributing before complaining of boredom with them!

Heck you don't even have to go back to Lvl 1 either - You can do an ER and Level up through Epics running every quest on Reaper whatever number you can manage!

That's surely enough content to keep you happy for the next couple of months - Then you'll have a bunch more End-Game content from the next couple of updates and if you manage to wait till the Expansion a whole bunch more!



And if you think TRers haven't been complaining on these forums over the past couple of years that Elite is too easy and boring it is you who has the blinders on!

Yalinaa
01-25-2017, 12:32 PM
Not long ago I did a heroic TR starting from lvl 1 and was doing all quests to get 5000 favor and my last missing +5 tome. At lvl 10 I put LFM up for Xorian Cipher (can't solo that one), and I did ALL the other lvl 8 (incl. Faithful Departed!!) quests while waiting for at least 1!! joiner... Noone came, so I used a lvl 7 toon from my mule account I usually use for Tomb of the Burning Heart and just brought in hirelings. Then leveld up to 11. Got some ppl for Shadow Crypt there, finally.:)

So the reaper difficulty for heroic levels is a great addition, but kinda useless without a server merge. Most people will just solo with a hireling on R1 for the bonus xp. While would you wait for hours to fill a party for like reaper 8? And I don't do TR to be the strongest lvl 8 character, meh, I don't even care lvl 8. And the named loots from thos low level quests are simply a joke these days, with or without reaper bonus.

Sam-u-r-eye
01-25-2017, 12:33 PM
You lost me. It could have been an answer to the end game question easily. Instead it is again log for the new update, play one new quest or raid for one week, break until the next update. I honestly hope you noticed who have been playing reaper on Lamannia and giving you the feedback on it. I can give you a hint. Not the people who are constantly on a hamster wheel. Completely missed your target group.

+1

Mr_Helmet
01-25-2017, 12:37 PM
Not long ago I did a heroic TR starting from lvl 1 and was doing all quests to get 5000 favor and my last missing +5 tome. At lvl 10 I put LFM up for Xorian Cipher (can't solo that one), and I did ALL the other lvl 8 (incl. Faithful Departed!!) quests while waiting for at least 1!! joiner... Noone came, so I used a lvl 7 toon from my mule account I usually use for Tomb of the Burning Heart and just brought in hirelings. Then leveld up to 11. Got some ppl for Shadow Crypt there, finally.:)

So the reaper difficulty for heroic levels is a great addition, but kinda useless without a server merge. Most people will just solo with a hireling on R1 for the bonus xp. While would you wait for hours to fill a party for like reaper 8? And I don't do TR to be the strongest lvl 8 character, meh, I don't even care lvl 8. And the named loots from thos low level quests are simply a joke these days, with or without reaper bonus.

So true, imagine the hilarity of trying to form a "balanced" group in heroic pug land.

Kebtid
01-25-2017, 12:37 PM
Not long ago I did a heroic TR starting from lvl 1 and was doing all quests to get 5000 favor and my last missing +5 tome. At lvl 10 I put LFM up for Xorian Cipher (can't solo that one), and I did ALL the other lvl 8 (incl. Faithful Departed!!) quests while waiting for at least 1!! joiner... Noone came, so I used a lvl 7 toon from my mule account I usually use for Tomb of the Burning Heart and just brought in hirelings. Then leveld up to 11. Got some ppl for Shadow Crypt there, finally.:)

So the reaper difficulty for heroic levels is a great addition, but kinda useless without a server merge. Most people will just solo with a hireling on R1 for the bonus xp. While would you wait for hours to fill a party for like reaper 8? And I don't do TR to be the strongest lvl 8 character, meh, I don't even care lvl 8. And the named loots from thos low level quests are simply a joke these days, with or without reaper bonus.

You can use archers by standing i front of em and making them go backsteps to stand at levers, use hire for 2nd spot and use hire to pull lever on r side.
ITs soloable.


Thats what ddo is, a big pile of soloplay.
You know, game based on dnd..
Sigh

Sam-u-r-eye
01-25-2017, 12:38 PM
OMG . . . did SSG read "re-entry lockout" as "level-range lockout" as their "feedback?"

I would say I've seen more foolish stuff happen, but I'd be lying.

+1

Mr_Helmet
01-25-2017, 12:47 PM
Calling it now. SSG will back down from this.

The tail is wagging the dog, this is all to distract us from the Human Versatility nerfs.

SirShen
01-25-2017, 12:48 PM
Really is sad that they decided to do this. You having to be at level to enter Reaper i.e level 2 quest (normal) on elite is level 4 so iv got to be level 4 to do reaper. If im level 5 then im locked out.

I did Reaper 2/3 on Lama at level 4 and iv still not seen any named items drop with any bonuses from all the level 4 quests iv done. So even with the so called increased drop rate its still nothing.

Loromir
01-25-2017, 12:57 PM
We had good player feedback that Reaper needed a level lock out, so that's one of the reasons we started looking into it. Yes, we are concerned that farming Reaper bonuses for lower level gear defeats the purpose of the system. We also don't want players jumping into Reaper without checking the XP panel and getting no Reaper XP because they were over level. This is particularly a concern since they currently wouldn't see that until they defeat at least 10 enemies.

Lastly, it's easier for us to restrict Reaper mode to prevent potential issues, see how it plays, and relax those restrictions than it is to add restrictions later on.

~ Reaper mode is not designed to replace or act as an end game system. It is there to provide challenge for those who want it, regardless of their level. Of course part of the design intentionally provides end game players with extra challenge for extra rewards, but the Reaper design is not the answer to the end game question.



We have two competing desires.
1.) Provide a wide range of difficulties so everyone can find their niche.
2.) Funnel players into a limited set of difficulties so players are more likely to play with each other.

Both of these are desirable goals, and they conflict. We chose the first as our priority because we'd rather give the players more choices and let them negotiate among themselves the most comfortable difficulty setting rather than providing a limited set of difficulties and force players into accepting a less fun setting so more players end up posting compatible groups.

It is a tough decision but in the end we believe the majority of our players are mature enough to decide among themselves the difficulty that is most fun for them.

Sev~

There is an opportunity here to appease both crowds. I'm assuming you have built into reaper the ability to modify the scaling behind the scenes. Why not do something along these lines: Make Skulls 8-10 scale up to CR 38+ for all content and remove the lock out criteria, then skull levels 1-7 stay consistent with what you have currently designed.

I really don't see why it should be so difficult to kill both birds with a Single "Standing Stone".

Caarb
01-25-2017, 12:58 PM
1.) Provide a wide range of difficulties so everyone can find their niche.
2.) Funnel players into a limited set of difficulties so players are more likely to play with each other.


This is not a binary choice. You should be funnelling players while levelling (especially in heroic) and provide a wide range of difficulties at cap.

I think I would have gone for a new difficulty for heroic quests equivalent to say reaper+3 (an example numbers could be fine tuned later) and allow all epic/legendary content to scale as they do now but playable by all epic level players. Group leaders could filter by level as they see fit but it would be their choice not forced by the game.

Loromir
01-25-2017, 01:01 PM
54vs16.

So, again, honest question: how exactly this level lockout was put in place when the people against it are 3* the times of those for it? Was this discussed in the PC? Because it certainly seems like it.

I'm pretty sure I'm not breaking NDA....this was not discussed with the PC by the dev team.

BigErkyKid
01-25-2017, 01:07 PM
[/B][/U] This game is not a hamster wheel. Its D&D inspired. It has a sense of adventure.


This.

It is extremely simple.

First, scrape the freaking trees. Not much can be lost since I believe they are the most boring generic power creep DDO has ever seen and I don't even think you have put much time into it (>DC10 really?). Unexciting, uninspired, uncalled for, absolutely no DnD flavor. Weeee reaper sword of +X! With the trees the reaper XP should go away. We don't want it, we want to play capped toons. NO ONE LIKES THOSE TREES, not a single person.

Second, remove the level restrictions. Yes, some will be cheesed. So what, people are cheesing loot all day long right now. Reaper was seen by many as a way to revisit a LOT (all epics at least) of content at cap with some difficulty added. If a few players want to form a static reaper group and level it, let them! But this is not what the overwhelming majority of feedback you are getting is asking for.

Third, please stop the vague promises for an end game. You have been producer for how long? Do we have a healthy end game? No, so please just stop. Do you know in part why we haven't had a healthy end game? Because for every raid you introduced, you then brought another raid (pr quest) with even better gear. So it is all strictly YOUR (the team's) fault.

So what then? Allow reaper to be the desired end game for those who want it. If you bring new raids and end game worthy quests and we end up having a healthy end game, good. We will then have the new end game plus reaper. If you don;t, at least you ll keep the end game crowd busy with Reaper for a while.

Talking about achievement integrity NOW, after allowing for massive power bugs, invalidating constantly content, and having game that is basically dead for achievements...

...is just ridiculous.

Wizza
01-25-2017, 01:07 PM
Good point. And to be fair I am not for it. The static group run through all levels possible on reaper was me looking at the bright side. As it wont effect those plans. But i am not for it.

I removed your name from it, thank you.


Also out of those 16, a lot of them stated publicly that they have NO plans to play in reaper.....so in reality their opinions shouldn't count

I agree but I wanted to be fair.


snip

Edit it out :) got the point

55v15. Seems very one sided to me.

Gratch
01-25-2017, 01:08 PM
Thats what ddo is, a big pile of soloplay.
You know, game based on dnd..
Sigh

You can also solo Crucible, Shroud and the Titan Raid (search Achievements).
Comically, when DDO first came out all the reviews were ****ed that the amount of solo play and kill 5 badgers for their tails was not available and very sad that you HAD TO GROUP and NEED A ROGUE in some quests. Hopefully reaper brings back some of the group play... and now back to that...

SEV. Any chance you could meet us halfway and do your level lockout+2 on heroic but not epic reaper quests? Or at least extend the epic level lockout more than heroic? I understand you want to start at MOSTHARSHANNOYINGLOCKOUTLEVEL and see where it goes... but really not seeing anyone in this thread asking for EPIC quest reaper lockout. (Talking just about lockout here... the XP and loot bonuses reduction discussion for overlevel can come after we come to a consensus on what levels of level grouping you're allowing and why you'd want another system like bravery bonus that ends up prohibiting grouping - unless you've figured out a way to merge all the servers with no extra lag to increase the pool of players).

Also... thanks for 10 quests plus 2 raids confirmation/plan for Ravenloft. A MotU arc of quests with say a pair of Thunderholme raids would be much appreciated for an expansion. I'm not much for explorers but for the theme/atmospherics of Ravenloft... you gotta do at LEAST one.

Wizza
01-25-2017, 01:13 PM
you can add 99% of my guild mate that never post in the forum.

No :) Only posters included. I get your point, but everyone would just claim this same thing and it wouldn't be a fair, objective list anymore.

Severlin
01-25-2017, 01:22 PM
I wanted Reaper to make trival higher level content difficult again..




It could have been an answer to the end game question easily.


We all want more end game content!

No system would be able to auto level existing content to be balanced for max level characters without reworking (ie. "epifying") that old content. Universal difficulty systems can't solve this problem unless the content was built (like challenge modes) with a system like this from the ground up. Or re-built from the ground up. The nature of how content was developed makes balancing lower level content for cap level characters impossible without reworking content dungeon by dungeon. We've done a lot of this in the past by epifying content; Reaper is not meant to be and cannot be a systematic method of epifying content.

(Yes, it can be used to make content intended for a specific level range harder for that level range.)



But, you should still allow overlevel. Just no rewards.
Can you guys code this?


Yes, in days not weeks. So it could be done, though Reaper would be delayed another week. It would open up another issue; in the current system we don’t have to worry about players not realizing they are doing content for which there are no rewards. The restriction simply disallows that.

When we have done analysis in the past on what people are running, the player behavior was that a small amount of people would mess with something like that at first, and then almost no one would engage the content. The people who played content for absolutely no reward were far and few between.

So we’d delay Reaper *and* have a situation where players can start content that has no rewards. I am not sure the combination is the best way to spent the dev resources.



Yes, but a little smother.

HEROIC:
3 level above: 50% benefits
4 level above: 0% benefits

EPIC:
3 level above: 75% benefits
4 level above: 50% benefits
5 level above: 25% benefits
6 level above: 0% benefits


We could increase the level range in epic, but we don’t think level 27 and lower quests would be challenging for characters at cap. We also don’t want to have a situation where it is better to run lower level content at higher skulls and avoid content appropriate for your level, so if we increase the level range for end game characters the curve would have to be more severe.



1) If Epic Characters aren't allowed to run ANY Heroic Quest on Reaper will Dreaming Dark count as Epic?

2) By not allowing Lvl 20 characters into Lvl 17-19 Heroic Reapers you will also significantly hurt the Lvl 17-19 Base Lvl Heroic Quests that are already hurting more than most due to Epic Normal XP being so much higher than these give on E-BB!
Lvl 17s especially as people cap 20 even on 3rd Life+ off 16s like Vale, Lords of Dust and Wheloon then go straight to Epics - But with 18s and 19s will Reaper count as Epic? If not it really should!


It’s a tough design. Those quests are significantly easier to characters with Epic Destinies. We don’t want the opposite problem, where player feel compelling to park at 20 and efficiently grind Reaper XP from lower level content.



one raid, wait until the end of the year by playing the same end game content


I think we’ve talked about the end game content pacing for this year already? But endgame content looks more like this:

Released with Dragonborn: Raid, 2 dungeons
Released with Stonelands: Dungeon pack
Released with Halloween: Festival content
Released with Ravenloft: 10+ dungeons, 2 raids.

We would like to actually have the expansion for Halloween and have content later in the year as well, but I don't know if we can bring enough resources to bear in time for that timetable. That's what we are discussing now.



I don't get why we need xp in reaper...why? Who cares about xp? We have millions way to get XP.


I believe people are talking about Reaper XP, not regular XP.



5 quest


The current content list for a level 30 wanting to run Reaper:

Level 28 quests
• Brothers of the Forge
• The Haunted Halls of Eveningstar
• Tower of Frost

Level 29 quests
• Desecrated Temple of Vol
• Desecrated Temple of Vol (epic)
• Flesh Maker's Laboratory (epic)
• Ghosts of Perdition (epic)
• Inferno of the Damned
• Inferno of the Damned (epic)

Level 30 quests
• Ascension Chamber
• Defiler of the Just
• Demon Assault
• Fire on Thunder Peak
• Grim and Barett
• Multitude of Menace
• Subversion
• Tavern Brawl (quest)
• Temple of Elemental Evil Part One
• Temple of Elemental Evil Part Two
• Temple of the Deathwyrm
• The Archons' Trial
• The Devil's Details
• The Mark of Death
• The Mask of Deception

Level 31 quests

• Assault on the Aerie of the Slave Lords
• Creeping Death
• Good Intentions
• Memoirs of an Illusory Larcener
• Search and Rescue
• Secret of the Slavers' Stockade
• Slave Pits of the Undercity
• To Curse the Sky

Level 32 quests
• Hound of Xoriat
• Legendary Hound of Xoriat
• Legendary Tempest's Spine
• The Codex and the Shroud
• The Shroud

We could pick up nine more quests by allowing end game characters to do quests down to level 26 and extend the penalty area, though I don’t know how challenging that would be for characters in end game gear.

Thoughts?

Sev~

Wizza
01-25-2017, 01:31 PM
We could increase the level range in epic, but we don’t think level 27 and lower quests would be challenging for characters at cap. We also don’t want to have a situation where it is better to run lower level content at higher skulls and avoid content appropriate for your level, so if we increase the level range for end game characters the curve would have to be more severe.


I think you are wrong here. Level 27 quests on Reaper 10 will pose a challenge for characters at cap, guaranteed. To be fair, Waterworks Reaper 10 will pose more challenge than anything on Live right now. Go down to Level 20 and Epic quests, and you got something. Allow us to run old-times quest such as Epic Phiarlian Chain, ADQ, ToD, Vault of Night. Who wouldn't want some VoN6 Reaper 10?

We couldn't care less if we get zero XP when playing significantly overlevel, this is what you fail to grasp. I'm absolutely fine with only granting XP as low as you want, I never wanted the Reaper trees either way.

I'm personally fine with not dropping Mythic-Reaper loot either in those levels, or reducing it drastically, but that is just me.

Cleanincubus
01-25-2017, 01:33 PM
We could pick up nine more quests by allowing end game characters to do quests down to level 26 and extend the penalty area, though I don’t know how challenging that would be for chanracters in end game gear.

Sev~

Then 10-Skull difficulty simply wasn't designed to be hard enough.

Vanhooger
01-25-2017, 01:33 PM
We all want more end game content!

No system would be able to auto level existing content to be balanced for max level characters without reworking (ie. "epifying") that old content. Universal difficulty systems can't solve this problem unless the content was built (like challenge modes) with a system like this from the ground up. Or re-built from the ground up. The nature of how content was developed makes balancing lower level content for cap level characters impossible without reworking content dungeon by dungeon. We've done a lot of this in the past by epifying content; Reaper is not meant to be and cannot be a systematic method of epifying content.

(Yes, it can be used to make content intended for a specific level range harder for that level range.)



Yes, in days not weeks. So it could be done, though Reaper would be delayed another week. It would open up another issue; in the current system we don’t have to worry about players not realizing they are doing content for which there are no rewards. The restriction simply disallows that.

When we have done analysis in the past on what people are running, the player behavior was that a small amount of people would mess with something like that at first, and then almost no one would engage the content. The people who played content for absolutely no reward were far and few between.

So we’d delay Reaper *and* have a situation where players can start content that has no rewards. I am not sure the combination is the best way to spent the dev resources.



We could increase the level range in epic, but we don’t think level 27 and lower quests would be challenging for characters at cap. We also don’t want to have a situation where it is better to run lower level content at higher skulls and avoid content appropriate for your level, so if we increase the level range for end game characters the curve would have to be more severe.



It’s a tough design. Those quests are significantly easier to characters with Epic Destinies. We don’t want the opposite problem, where player feel compelling to park at 20 and efficiently grind Reaper XP from lower level content.



I think we’ve talked about the end game content pacing for this year already? But endgame content looks more like this:

Released with Dragonborn: Raid, 2 dungeons
Released with Stonelands: Dungeon pack
Released with Halloween: Festival content
Released with Ravenloft: 10+ dungeons, 2 raids.

We would like to actually have the expansion for Halloween and have content later in the year as well, but I don't know if we can bring enough resources to bear in time for that timetable. That's what we are discussing now.



I believe people are talking about Reaper XP, not regular XP.



The current content list for a level 30 wanting to run Reaper:

Level 28 quests
• Brothers of the Forge
• The Haunted Halls of Eveningstar
• Tower of Frost

Level 29 quests
• Desecrated Temple of Vol
• Desecrated Temple of Vol (epic)
• Flesh Maker's Laboratory (epic)
• Ghosts of Perdition (epic)
• Inferno of the Damned
• Inferno of the Damned (epic)

Level 30 quests
• Ascension Chamber
• Defiler of the Just
• Demon Assault
• Fire on Thunder Peak
• Grim and Barett
• Multitude of Menace
• Subversion
• Tavern Brawl (quest)
• Temple of Elemental Evil Part One
• Temple of Elemental Evil Part Two
• Temple of the Deathwyrm
• The Archons' Trial
• The Devil's Details
• The Mark of Death
• The Mask of Deception

Level 31 quests

• Assault on the Aerie of the Slave Lords
• Creeping Death
• Good Intentions
• Memoirs of an Illusory Larcener
• Search and Rescue
• Secret of the Slavers' Stockade
• Slave Pits of the Undercity
• To Curse the Sky

Level 32 quests
• Hound of Xoriat
• Legendary Hound of Xoriat
• Legendary Tempest's Spine
• The Codex and the Shroud
• The Shroud

We could pick up nine more quests by allowing end game characters to do quests down to level 26 and extend the penalty area, though I don’t know how challenging that would be for chanracters in end game gear.

Sev~


I was talking about reaper xp too. No need the 120% bonus xp for reaper. If you want to level you already have normal/hard/elite and saga.

About quest number, mine was an exaggeration obviously, it's not 5 quest as you said but why locking out about another hundred quest, even if not challenging as lvl 28-30, for sure they will be way harder then elite lvl 30 quest, and that is already something.

If you need to delay that for 2-3 week a month I don't care, I look for content to play and have fun, even if it is without any xp or reward I don't need them. I hope you really reconsider that.

As for reward that do not give power, there was plenty of post in the proper thread and I am sad no one made it, sadly.

BigErkyKid
01-25-2017, 01:37 PM
We all want more end game content!

When we have done analysis in the past on what people are running, the player behavior was that a small amount of people would mess with something like that at first, and then almost no one would engage the content. The people who played content for absolutely no reward were far and few between.

So we’d delay Reaper *and* have a situation where players can start content that has no rewards. I am not sure the combination is the best way to spent the dev resources.

Sev~

Absolutely. Time well used. Do it, no one gives a rat's arse whether you release 1 week later or not.

Yes, people will not run challenging content ad nauseam for nothing like they run non challenging content for power. But Mystra's sake we are sick of running for XP!

Consumables, extended remnant like rewards, some reaper items. But not more XP!!!!! I am going to barf my dinner over any design that requires me to farm more XP.

Now suppose someone wants to play reaper. Suppose this is among a bunch of capped characters. Why on earth would you limit their ability to do so by introducing freaking REAPER levels that give more power? So now if you want to play reaper effectively, please grind reaper XP.

Also, the trees are rubbish.

PS - If you want a healthy end game scene, stop releasing rubbish quests with rubbish gear that you overpower in 2 updates.


Level 28 quests
• Brothers of the Forge
• The Haunted Halls of Eveningstar
• Tower of Frost

2 items relevant.


Level 29 quests
• Desecrated Temple of Vol
• Desecrated Temple of Vol (epic)
• Flesh Maker's Laboratory (epic)
• Ghosts of Perdition (epic)
• Inferno of the Damned
• Inferno of the Damned (epic)

0 items relevant.


Level 30 quests
• Ascension Chamber
• Defiler of the Just
• Demon Assault
2 items relevant.


• Fire on Thunder Peak
• Temple of the Deathwyrm
OKish crafted items, otherwise named items have long lost any appeal.

Grim and Barett
• Multitude of Menace
• Subversion
• Tavern Brawl (quest)
0 items relevant.

• Temple of Elemental Evil Part One
• Temple of Elemental Evil Part Two
Super niche items, most would say not relevant.

• The Archons' Trial
• The Devil's Details
0 items relevant.

• The Mark of Death
1 or 2 items relevant.

• The Mask of Deception
0 items relevant.

Level 31 quests


• Assault on the Aerie of the Slave Lords
• Creeping Death
• Good Intentions
• Memoirs of an Illusory Larcener
• Search and Rescue
• Secret of the Slavers' Stockade
• Slave Pits of the Undercity
• To Curse the Sky
Only a very small subset of items relevant, aside of slavers gear.




Level 32 quests
• Hound of Xoriat
• Legendary Hound of Xoriat
• Legendary Tempest's Spine
• The Codex and the Shroud
• The Shroud

Current end game.

Capricorpus
01-25-2017, 01:39 PM
The current content list for a level 30 wanting to run Reaper:

Level 28 quests
• Brothers of the Forge
• The Haunted Halls of Eveningstar
• Tower of Frost

Level 29 quests
• Desecrated Temple of Vol - listed twice
• Desecrated Temple of Vol (epic)
• Flesh Maker's Laboratory (epic)
• Ghosts of Perdition (epic)
• Inferno of the Damned - listed twice
• Inferno of the Damned (epic)

Level 30 quests
• Ascension Chamber - Ascension Chamber is not level 30. You're thinking Mark of Death, which you included later in your list
• Defiler of the Just
• Demon Assault
• Fire on Thunder Peak
• Grim and Barett
• Multitude of Menace
• Subversion
• Tavern Brawl (quest)
• Temple of Elemental Evil Part One
• Temple of Elemental Evil Part Two
• Temple of the Deathwyrm
• The Archons' Trial
• The Devil's Details
• The Mark of Death
• The Mask of Deception

Level 31 quests

• Assault on the Aerie of the Slave Lords
• Creeping Death
• Good Intentions
• Memoirs of an Illusory Larcener
• Search and Rescue
• Secret of the Slavers' Stockade
• Slave Pits of the Undercity
• To Curse the Sky

Level 32 quests
• Hound of Xoriat - listed twice
• Legendary Hound of Xoriat
• Legendary Tempest's Spine
• The Codex and the Shroud
• The Shroud - listed twice

We could pick up nine more quests by allowing end game characters to do quests down to level 26 and extend the penalty area, though I don’t know how challenging that would be for characters in end game gear.

Thoughts?

Sev~

Corrected a bunch of mistakes.

Drwaz99
01-25-2017, 01:40 PM
I think we’ve talked about the end game content pacing for this year already? But endgame content looks more like this:

Released with Dragonborn: Raid, 2 dungeons (it's basically Feb now, so April, May? Last announcement made it seem like this was this was separate from Anniversary.)
Released with Stonelands: Dungeon pack (3? quests with unknown ETA? July/August, maybe)
Released with Halloween: Festival content (temporary as the quest disappear)
Released with Ravenloft: 10+ dungeons, 2 raids. (Maybe Halloween, quite possibly later)

We would like to actually have the expansion for Halloween and have content later in the year as well, but I don't know if we can bring enough resources to bear in time for that timetable. That's what we are discussing now.

5 quests and a raid, maybe, until late fall. That's not a lot of content. At all. Defintly not enough to sustain someone, like me, who has put his time and money in and wants to stay at cap with being bored/burned out. Opening up reaper will fill in those gaping chasms of missing end game content. If it delays it by weeks, fine! I'd rather wait weeks than 9 more months for anything of substance to do. (no 5 quests and a raid in 9 months is, respectfully, pitiful).


The current content list for a level 30 wanting to run Reaper:

Level 28 quests
• Brothers of the Forge
• The Haunted Halls of Eveningstar
• Tower of Frost

Level 29 quests
• Desecrated Temple of Vol
• Desecrated Temple of Vol (epic)
• Flesh Maker's Laboratory (epic)
• Ghosts of Perdition (epic)
• Inferno of the Damned
• Inferno of the Damned (epic)

Level 30 quests
• Ascension Chamber
• Defiler of the Just
• Demon Assault
• Fire on Thunder Peak
• Grim and Barett
• Multitude of Menace
• Subversion
• Tavern Brawl (quest)
• Temple of Elemental Evil Part One
• Temple of Elemental Evil Part Two
• Temple of the Deathwyrm
• The Archons' Trial
• The Devil's Details
• The Mark of Death
• The Mask of Deception

Level 31 quests

• Assault on the Aerie of the Slave Lords
• Creeping Death
• Good Intentions
• Memoirs of an Illusory Larcener
• Search and Rescue
• Secret of the Slavers' Stockade
• Slave Pits of the Undercity
• To Curse the Sky

Level 32 quests
• Hound of Xoriat
• Legendary Hound of Xoriat
• Legendary Tempest's Spine
• The Codex and the Shroud
• The Shroud

We could pick up nine more quests by allowing end game characters to do quests down to level 26 and extend the penalty area, though I don’t know how challenging that would be for characters in end game gear.



Sev~

Some responses in red inside the quote.

All the same quests we've been running for a year+ at cap. People at cap are tired of running them over and over and over. We are sick of gather more than a handful of different types of XP. It's what we've been doing for well over a year. It's time to just drop the lock out at epic levels, keep it in heroic. If you want to kill XP, fine, the reaper trees aren't even a priority for me. I want stuff to do. Sure some people may farm out low level epic items with bonuses, but they will only use them for a few levels. It'll give us much more variety while we wait for your plans to come to fruition. Conceptually lock-out is great on paper, but horrible in the real world.

Also, you gave us the good gear, now you are penalizing us for playing and getting it. That's another horrible precedent.

You definitely haven't sold me. If anything, you're going even more backwards.

Silverleafeon
01-25-2017, 01:49 PM
I'm pretty sure I'm not breaking NDA....this was not discussed with the PC by the dev team.

I figured as such.
It should have been, as your feedback would have been helpful.
/salute to PC members

Silverleafeon
01-25-2017, 01:59 PM
Yes, in days not weeks. So it could be done, though Reaper would be delayed another week.


Only one week to fix this problem?

Is that all?

Like the service manager told the mechanic: "Fix it!"
The mechanic said, "But?"
The service manager said again, "Fix it!"


It would open up another issue; in the current system we don’t have to worry about players not realizing they are doing content for which there are no rewards. The restriction simply disallows that.

Really?
That is a terrible excuse for locking players out.
Just terrible.

It is the responsibility of the Party Leader to choose who joins the group, not you.
It is the responsibility of the Party Leader to choose who joins the group, not you.
It is the responsibility of the Party Leader to choose who joins the group, not you.
It is the responsibility of the Party Leader to choose who joins the group, not you.
It is the responsibility of the Party Leader to choose who joins the group, not you.
It is the responsibility of the Party Leader to choose who joins the group, not you.
It is the responsibility of the Party Leader to choose who joins the group, not you.

Silverleafeon
01-25-2017, 02:01 PM
Limited edition, now for sale by kobold vendors in the Harbor and Meridia.

http://i3.cpcache.com/product/311370749/pitchfork_and_torch_35_button_10_pack.jpg?height=6 30&width=630&qv=90

Yamato-San
01-25-2017, 02:10 PM
Very disappointed with the current design.
I thought Reaper mode would be fun for running low level quests on an elevated end game difficulty, but no you shall have no fun.

Silverleafeon
01-25-2017, 02:11 PM
Favor Farming & Flagging can be quite boring.
Have you considered how much more interesting being able to increase the skulls would be on something such as a level 30 flagging for Heroic Shroud or Lord of Blades?

TPICKRELL
01-25-2017, 02:21 PM
We all want more end game content!

...
The current content list for a level 30 wanting to run Reaper:

Level 28 quests
• Brothers of the Forge
• The Haunted Halls of Eveningstar
• Tower of Frost

Level 29 quests
• Desecrated Temple of Vol
• Desecrated Temple of Vol (epic)
• Flesh Maker's Laboratory (epic)
• Ghosts of Perdition (epic)
• Inferno of the Damned
• Inferno of the Damned (epic)

Level 30 quests
• Ascension Chamber
• Defiler of the Just
• Demon Assault
• Fire on Thunder Peak
• Grim and Barett
• Multitude of Menace
• Subversion
• Tavern Brawl (quest)
• Temple of Elemental Evil Part One
• Temple of Elemental Evil Part Two
• Temple of the Deathwyrm
• The Archons' Trial
• The Devil's Details
• The Mark of Death
• The Mask of Deception

Level 31 quests

• Assault on the Aerie of the Slave Lords
• Creeping Death
• Good Intentions
• Memoirs of an Illusory Larcener
• Search and Rescue
• Secret of the Slavers' Stockade
• Slave Pits of the Undercity
• To Curse the Sky

Level 32 quests
• Hound of Xoriat
• Legendary Hound of Xoriat
• Legendary Tempest's Spine
• The Codex and the Shroud
• The Shroud

...
Thoughts?

Sev~

This list looks ok on paper, but to me, most of the level 28-30 content has a very low repeatability level. By that I mean that they are either to long to fit in my schedule or to repetitive to enjoy running very often or both.

Take Memoirs--> Talk to some NPCs--> Fight several groups of archer elves in a bar that activate serially--> Fight a rednamed and oranged named elf--> move to the town where you fight a group of elven archers with a couple of elven casters thrown in--> repeat this several time to lower the blue walls --> move to a boat where you fight some elves (smalll variation from previous composition)--> move to a forest where you fight 3 or 4 groups of elves in order to move to the end fight where you fight a mixture of red named/orange named elves which are similar to all the other groups you been slogging through.

I enjoy that quest once a month or so, more than that and it is a monotonous chore. On reaper each of those fights is going to take longer and become even more tedious. If you contrast that with Von 3 which has more variation in mobs, and even with the drow being the heavily dominate monsters, the fights are different tactically so more interesting. There's absolutely no loot in Von3 worth having on my toons so I don't run it often now, but I would be far less bored repeating Von3s on higher skulls than repeating Memoirs.

Good intentions is the same. All those constructs make for a monotonous quest.. Interesting occasionally but not fun to farm. Haunted Halls is great, once a month maybe. I like Search and Rescue but it is to long to fit into an evening so at most once every couple of weeks.

Tavern brawl is monotonous but at least short. It may go on the list now even though I don't really like the quest.

I run frequent Grimm and Barrets for ingredients and decent xp on toons who are leveling. It can go on the list but on Reaper it is likely to take a lot longer so ruins the efficient ingredient/decent xp farm that it is now.

And so forth. Almost all of the quests on this list are monotonous. So adding quest to the list at least gives a richer pool to draw from.

Also Breaking the Ranks and What Goes up can easily compete with Memoirs, Good Intentions, Tavern Brawl... on difficulty.

Steve_Howe
01-25-2017, 02:26 PM
https://i.stack.imgur.com/orvwj.gif

Silverleafeon
01-25-2017, 02:28 PM
If the main reason for wanting the level restriction removed is a wider diversity of quests for top-level characters, would people be happy if we removed the restriction but also removed the XP, Reaper/Mythic bonuses, increased drop rate, and other benefits from an under-level quest being run on Reaper, but otherwise allowed entry? Keep in mind that since not having this restriction would also incentivize bringing in high level characters in otherwise level-appropriate groups, we'd need to implement that penalty for the entire party if an over-level character was in the group.


+1 if I had any left to give.
Well done in tempering a situation.
Keep this guy around.

I think this very timely wise compromise should be read and considered strongly by the Devs as I am very willing to accept thus.
Other posters have commented on the same.

Malex
01-25-2017, 02:33 PM
Really?
That is a terrible excuse for locking players out.
Just terrible.

It is the responsibility of the Party Leader to choose who joins the group, not you.
It is the responsibility of the Party Leader to choose who joins the group, not you.
It is the responsibility of the Party Leader to choose who joins the group, not you.
It is the responsibility of the Party Leader to choose who joins the group, not you.
It is the responsibility of the Party Leader to choose who joins the group, not you.
It is the responsibility of the Party Leader to choose who joins the group, not you.
It is the responsibility of the Party Leader to choose who joins the group, not you.

Fun fact: reaper is meant for experienced players, which look for higher challenge.
But they cant figure out they are missing the rewards for when the level is too high.
Really, too difficult of a challenge to undertsand how it works
/sarcasm

Also, yes: wheloon and (a lot more) Storm Horns will be challenging! A lot. They are more challenging than slavers, that's for sure, as I played those a lot on diffent classes/archetypes.

But also, Severlin, you are missing a bit point: RAIDS.
CITW and Fall of Thruth immediatly come to my mind: do you really think that those on reaper are not challenging for capped toons?
Then reaper is easier than I thought...

PsychoBlonde
01-25-2017, 02:39 PM
Checked out the reaper trees. They look pretty bland to me.

Decided to try playing 10 skulls at level 4 (level 2 quest).

Predictably died a bunch. It might be doable with a group and a lot of running back and forth to the shrine.

It's kind of harsh for low-level characters (I know it's supposed to be harsh) because healing pots don't heal you AT ALL. I might suggest allowing level 1 healing spells/effects (cure light, basically) to still have their effect. That way you can at least drink cure light potions for some healing.

I didn't think about trying a charm build. Nor did I take the time to craft heavy gear.

QueenOfTheHook
01-25-2017, 02:50 PM
I understand that you guys don't want end game players running heroic content on 10 skull to get the xp they need to build their reaper trees. Don't award the xp then.

If you are afraid that we might get the named items we want for TR purposes quickly, well, we are going to farm them either way, save our poor brains from turning into mush and let us get them quickly at least so we can get back to the TRing.

If you are afraid that we will be able to walk into 10 skull solo and beat it on day one, 99.5% of us won't be able to. Fix the broken builds and quit nerfing my poor warlock that looks like it might as well be a healing cleric next to the tree builds out there now.

I propose an xp scale that is based on quest level + # of skulls. An endgame player could still get reaper xp from LoD as long as they are running at least 9 skull. Make a powered level penalty so you don't have a few level 21s in there milking the max xp off of the endgame people. If they are more than 5 levels below the highest player, then start chopping their xp heavily.

I'm in solid agreement with the others that as is, it is not helpful to those that are struggling to make the game interesting again.

Renvar
01-25-2017, 02:59 PM
Had some spare time before the guests for dinner. This is the current list of people who are against this change and people who are for:

56vs15.

So, again, honest question: how exactly this level lockout was put in place when the people against it are 3* the times of those for it? Was this discussed in the PC? Because it certainly seems like it.

You are assuming the forum population is representative of the the player base. This would be a false assumption.

Also, you are presenting as a binary things which are more varied. Some players in your list of "against the level lockout" are actually for "reaper being for end game only. All content should be scaled to be challenging at Cap." That is a different position than "I know the 1-20 reaper 10 skull content is not scaled to 30 and will be much easier when running on a level 30, but I still want to play that content on a level 30".

You are presenting some players as "for a level lockout" when, in fact they are for the quest +2 levels lockout but others are for a quest + 4 or quest +6 levels lockout. Or some are for no lockout, but not giving reaper XP or reaper loot if you are higher than quest + 2 levels. These are also different positions.

At a minimum you should have 4 groups:

Reaper is for cap only. All reaper mode should be scaled for level 30 characters. Regardless of the original quest level of the quest.

Reaper is scaled based on the quest level. But any level character can run any quest on reaper. And get loot drops and reaper XP.

Reaper is scaled based on the quest level. But any level character can run any quest on reaper. No loot drops or XP if you are more than quest +2 levels (or quest +4 levels)

Reaper is scaled based on the quest level. Only characters at quest +2 (or 4 or 6) can enter the quest on reaper. If you can enter the quest, you can get xp and loot.

That would more accurately gauge the forum population's spectrum of opinions. Im sure you could add more tiers or options, even. If you really broke down the responses.