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Folker
01-12-2017, 11:34 AM
Most of us come from PnP D&D, almost all of us have played other games.

The biggest problem with this is that there is no Role-Play in this RPG.

For instance, the closest we come to any actual RP in this game is the end of the quest Dead Girl's Spellbook, where you can give her the book and get your reward or you can destroy the book and forget about the reward. Study in Sable and Haunted Halls are a couple of the best dungeons, though still having no real RP in them they have the RP feel which does much.

Take the Quest A Break in the Ice, for an example. In this quest at the end the Giant demands you to leave his mountain, how hard would it have been to make that fight optional and allow people to choose to skip the fight and just miss out on the chests.

There needs to be more in quest text, and with it the use of diplomacy/haggle/bluff and those types of skills to make some fights easier or maybe even to skip some fights.

Moving forward please try to inject more role play in your quests.

Amundir
01-12-2017, 11:37 AM
How is having in game optional choices "role playing"?

Enoach
01-12-2017, 11:40 AM
There is a lot of story in the dialogs all over Stormreach and Eveningstar. I would wager the majority have not read them but instead click the "continue" option.

I agree I would love to see more Skill Usage in dialogs and different results based on their outcome.

Qhualor
01-12-2017, 11:49 AM
I've pushed for something similar in the past. Not everything should be about killing in DDO.

dunklezhan
01-12-2017, 12:34 PM
How is having in game optional choices "role playing"?

It allows for making a choice according to your character, and then living with the consequences, good or bad. That's all (and often, enough).

Amundir
01-12-2017, 12:41 PM
It allows for making a choice according to your character, and then living with the consequences, good or bad. That's all (and often, enough).

That statement can be applied to many things. It's not unique to "role playing". I guess what my opinion is is that just using skills in that way isn't really role playing. Anyone can cross class points into a skills and possibly qualify for those choices. Personally I don't think that's enough to qualify as role playing.

It's like if you were good at picking locks in real life. If you do so, doesn't mean you are role playing at being a thief. You're just using a skill you have.

Enoach
01-12-2017, 12:41 PM
Prove Your Worth (Heroic) while not a skill check actually has two possible endings - Make the Kobold walk the plank and finish, or free him and fight mobs and then turn around and dodge through another room of traps to finish.

Prove Your Worth (Epic) has the use of social skills where if you are successful stuns the end boss, failure party stunned. But if you are successful for all of these you get an extra chest.

So there are multiple ways to add in a more Role Play feel without needing to take away from those that simply want to hack-n-slash their way through.

Gljosh
01-12-2017, 12:42 PM
Well Role Playing is hard to construct successfully and most of the player are just roll players blasting through content.

I can think of a few quest that use the social skills (Diplomatic Immunity, Relic of Sovereign Past, Tharask Arena, The Lord of Blades, Shadow of Doubt, The Deal and the Demon, and Prove Your Worth (Epic)) and some dragon encounters. So 9 (probably missed a few-included Epic Versions) out of 441.

Enoach
01-12-2017, 01:03 PM
Well Role Playing is hard to construct successfully and most of the player are just roll players blasting through content.

I can think of a few quest that use the social skills (Diplomatic Immunity, Relic of Sovereign Past, Tharask Arena, The Lord of Blades, Shadow of Doubt, The Deal and the Demon, and Prove Your Worth (Epic)) and some dragon encounters. So 9 (probably missed a few-included Epic Versions) out of 441.

There are also some quest givers that have a bluff check that can give a player an item such as Eastern Threnal's quest giver or avoid paying a fee such as Thrall of the Necromancer.

We do have it, it is just not a prevalent as some would want and unnoticeable by those that don't care :)

FranOhmsford
01-12-2017, 02:15 PM
There is a lot of story in the dialogs all over Stormreach and Eveningstar. I would wager the majority have not read them but instead click the "continue" option.

I agree I would love to see more Skill Usage in dialogs and different results based on their outcome.

I noticed something today for the first time after 6.5 years playing this game...

The second Mummy in Faithful Departed says something about us being punished for Menos' failure to listen to his admonishment - Menos Xuekaine is the Questgiver for Haunted Library and in a way also for Keeper's Sanctuary.

It seems Faithful Departed is also tied to that storyline.


Now it's great that DDO does have these storylines but I feel they hide them perhaps too well {and yes a lot -most - of players skip through npc discussion asap too} - This one isn't a Questgiver discussion but something a mob says in quest.

P.S. Annelisa Hdar from Keeper's Sanctuary IS Annalisa from Bounty Hunter - Read the Letter to Annalisa and it spells it out for you!

So that's Haunted Library, Keeper's Sanctuary, The Bounty Hunter and Faithful Departed all linked.

Enoach
01-12-2017, 02:44 PM
I noticed something today for the first time after 6.5 years playing this game...

The second Mummy in Faithful Departed says something about us being punished for Menos' failure to listen to his admonishment - Menos Xuekaine is the Questgiver for Haunted Library and in a way also for Keeper's Sanctuary.

It seems Faithful Departed is also tied to that storyline. Much like the House P Carnival series, Gianthold and Inspired Quarters are tied together in a story.


Now it's great that DDO does have these storylines but I feel they hide them perhaps too well {and yes a lot -most - of players skip through npc discussion asap too} - This one isn't a Questgiver discussion but something a mob says in quest.

P.S. Annelisa Hdar from Keeper's Sanctuary IS Annalisa from Bounty Hunter - Read the Letter to Annalisa and it spells it out for you!

So that's Haunted Library, Keeper's Sanctuary, The Bounty Hunter and Faithful Departed all linked.

There is a lot of story hidden outside and inside quests. There are several early quests where you pick up letters, scrolls and even books that you can actually click on and read much like the letter found in Haunted Library.

The Abbot and the Shroud are also conjoined in a story line.

It is disappointing that development of these little tid bits of story have not continued in later quest.

count_spicoli
01-12-2017, 03:01 PM
What about the dragon at the end of litany gives you a bunch of questions based on alignment and also the dude in pop questions based on alignment. Think there is more role play and dialog than the op is noticing

Saekee
01-12-2017, 03:08 PM
try the Stormreach Campaign (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/464539-The-Stormreach-Campaign?highlight=the+stormreach+campaign)by Deadloch. I did this while leveling and it was insanely fun.

As for dialogue options, changing modes of getting through quests--that is not role playing; that is good quest design. The Lordsmarch Quest chains are exceptional in this regard, as are many of the stealth-beloved quests like Claw of Vulkoor.

For lore/immersion--here, too, is the failure of good quest design. The baseline of good quest design from an immersion standpoint is its Ecology! Unless undead, or robots, where do they eat? relieve themselves? where do they sleep? Why are they where they are in the moment you encounter them!!!! Mobs standing around for NO REASON is horrible quest design and points to designers with the limited life experience of first person shooters.

One of the very best quests, in this regard, is Siegebreaker, in which the 'ecology' is added as optionals and in-quest elements--a public bathroom by shrines, optional to poison water supply (yes, mobs need water supply), sleeping mobs, tents that can be burned down, etc. My salute to the quest designer!

I have thought about doing a review of DDO quests from this perspective but can't be bothered right now. Feeling too lousy in RL. :(

Enoach
01-12-2017, 03:13 PM
...Ecology...
This is also one of the reasons I like the Haunted Halls quest even though it is mostly undead you get the impression of what it was like when it was full of the living.

Pyyro_del_Drago
01-12-2017, 03:15 PM
There needs to be more in quest text, and with it the use of diplomacy/haggle/bluff and those types of skills to make some fights easier or maybe even to skip some fights.


The Crucible is great for this, and I agree there should be more of this in the game.

For true RP, I suggest getting real life friends into the game. I have taken to playing on a low level toon recently with one of my best RL friends, and we do RP dialogue for our characters (based on class, race, and alignment). This has proven to be a lot of fun, and added a different level of enjoyment to the game for me. You could probably even do this with a group online over the voice chat. Maybe make an RP guild or something.

^^The above is just an idea, but I do agree with you more RP options built into the game would be a lot of fun, and encourage more diverse play, and maybe even builds.

RydeaNikkna
01-12-2017, 04:09 PM
My first reaction to this post was that role-play is what you do in voice chat with a group of friends dedicated to playing their character's role. "Watch out, that column doesn't seem right, let me check it out, Yeowch! yep it was a trap..."

But I think the Folker is looking for more in game repercussions for choices so you could make those choices based on your character, rather than some external decision like xp/min. Others have highlighted there are choices or outcomes based on things other than killing. Social skills = extra chests/allies/easier fights, trapping skills = extra (locked) chests/secret doors, physical skills gets you up to ledges for breakables/hidey spots/swimming for optionals/narrow escapes from being surrounded. But those are build choices affecting how you would play, not really choices your character would have to make.

I think the favor system is a system of impacting choices, as you build favor they tend to be more personable toward you. You could role-play a distinct hatred of dwarves and their house (at the cost of bank space) and never do them the favor of completing their quests. You would have to imagine the harsh stares and rude tellers you would get going into house k's bank. Sounds fun, and wouldn't really hurt gameplay. If you were really dedicated to role-playing based on favor, you could try to complete all the quests for a given faction before moving onto the next. It would make leveling awkward but whatever.

Halfling_Gobbler
01-12-2017, 04:22 PM
For true RP, I suggest getting real life friends into the game. I have taken to playing on a low level toon recently with one of my best RL friends, and we do RP dialogue for our characters (based on class, race, and alignment).

As someone who has done this on many MMOs, DDO included, I can confirm that it is fun. There's a couple of Roleplaying guilds on Sarlona still, and one recently popping up on Orien. Something to check out, if that is the sort of rolepaly you are interested. Now more on topic...

I agree that this game could use with some more in-depth dungeons (Haunted Halls of Eveningstar spring to mind) and dialgoue choices. I do enjoy the Carnival Series, especially Partycrashers.
** Spoiler ** If you dont do the optionals, the Viceroy dies at the end. If you get them all, he will survive. ** Spoiler **
That said, not every quest needs to be like this, but having more quests where your decisions/skills matter would be nice, though I'd still not call that 'roleplay', per se. ;)
More voice-acted narration could help with getting the storyline across. People generally don't bother reading the dialogue and prefer to just skip it - But if it's properly narrated, they might just.

Then again, it can be costly to have voice-acting done - And having played SWTOR, a fully voice-acted MMORPG, I can tell you that people /still/ skip dialogue, narrated or not, in favor of faster XP/Loots.

Nuclear_Elvis
01-13-2017, 12:15 AM
I would argue that some things sought for by the OP and some follow-on comments are desires to test the effectiveness of Character Development, not by definition role-playing issues.

I do think it is a good thing to put Character Development to the test across a broader spectrum that is beyond simply First-Person Shooter point and clicking, and options and different outcomes from Bluffing vs Intimidating etc could be interesting.

However, if we really want to be more specific, parsing quests for true role-play requirements includes such gates as - well, gates, that require a Rogue or Artificer to unlock to move forward, or a healing requirement for an NPC that requires a cleric or FVS or capable Paladin to play their role, or such.

Any character could up their Bluff, but not every character can unlock a door, and not every character can heal other players in their role. Should a quest restrict progress if there's not a player in the group who's able to play their role? Perhaps that is the question we should be asking. Should quests shut you down if the group doesn't have the right mix of role-players? Or should quest endings differ depending on your mix of roles?

Having said that, I don't mind if the Dev's were to make such a quest series. We have plenty of solo-capable quests, and probably a few too many "group requirement" quests where the whole group must show up or stand on light-up pads in just the right combo or other forced group-play silliness, but I can't say that I know of role-play requirement quests off-hand. So, if it helps round out the game - sure, bring it on.

Memnir
01-13-2017, 01:18 AM
The ship to add more meaningful, RP-esque, choices sailed a long time back. Like 2005, when the game's closed beta forums were rife with threads made by players asking for more in depth RP options. Maybe DDO2 will have more... (rueful chuckle)

Folker
01-25-2017, 04:19 PM
I've pushed for something similar in the past. Not everything should be about killing in DDO.

oooo that should have been the title of this thread.

Not everything should be about killing in DDO.:cool:

Ralmeth
01-25-2017, 05:20 PM
/Agreed.

I think some good ways to improve the in-game role-play feel would be:

1) Instead of tons of text boxes that we all just click through, have more NPC voice overs. It seems much more engaging to listen to someone talk, than to read the text (though still display the text).

2) Build quests so they suspend your disbelief. Get away from a video game focus, and instead focus on bringing the adventures alive! For example, don't have artificial barriers that drop once you kill all of the mobs in an area. That's not believable at all. Instead, have a key drop from a random NPC when you kill them, with perhaps the option of picking the lock to get by. If the area should be more difficult to pass, then add layered defenses that make sense. For example, why not have a mob guard that locked door, who will alert his friends if he's attacked (though you could assassinate or insta-kill him). Possibly have guards on the other side, manning the door for anyone that comes through. Etc.

3) Add consequences for certain actions taken during a quest. This way the players' choices would make a difference. For example, if you kill an innocent NPC, perhaps the NPC paladin nearby get mad and attacks you. Perhaps if you go into a tavern and you start breaking the boxes, the owner speaks up and says something like, "what in the heck are you doing?!" and if you break more boxes perhaps you break the quest as he says, "nevermind. You seem as bad as the goblins that are trying to burn the place down." LOL.

Anyways, just a few thoughts.

Folker
01-25-2017, 05:41 PM
I would argue that some things sought for by the OP and some follow-on comments are desires to test the effectiveness of Character Development, not by definition role-playing issues.

I do think it is a good thing to put Character Development to the test across a broader spectrum that is beyond simply First-Person Shooter point and clicking, and options and different outcomes from Bluffing vs Intimidating etc could be interesting.

However, if we really want to be more specific, parsing quests for true role-play requirements includes such gates as - well, gates, that require a Rogue or Artificer to unlock to move forward, or a healing requirement for an NPC that requires a cleric or FVS or capable Paladin to play their role, or such.

Any character could up their Bluff, but not every character can unlock a door, and not every character can heal other players in their role. Should a quest restrict progress if there's not a player in the group who's able to play their role? Perhaps that is the question we should be asking. Should quests shut you down if the group doesn't have the right mix of role-players? Or should quest endings differ depending on your mix of roles?

Having said that, I don't mind if the Dev's were to make such a quest series. We have plenty of solo-capable quests, and probably a few too many "group requirement" quests where the whole group must show up or stand on light-up pads in just the right combo or other forced group-play silliness, but I can't say that I know of role-play requirement quests off-hand. So, if it helps round out the game - sure, bring it on.


You are confusing role-play with fullfilling your role in a party. Most, if not all quest should and can be completed by any class. However role-play is about much more then just your class, its alignment and a self created character history.

For instance a simple quest to retrieve a stolen item. In this quest you could go through several encounters and deal with them in various ways and when you find the item at the end of this dungeon, a Lawful character might summon the city guard where a Chaotic character may just dispense justice with the edge of his sword. The dungeon doesn't necessarily require a rogue or a healer, that would be up to the individual enchounters.