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Cordovan
12-14-2016, 05:11 PM
UPDATE: We've set tonight for Cocomajobo and KookieKobold to hang out with you on Lamannia tonight and get some direct feedback on Reaper difficulty! Join them on Lamannia from 8:00pm to 10:00pm Eastern tonight (Thursday, December 15th).

We are doing a preview of Update 33 Patch 2 and Update 32 on Lamannia! This preview runs until mid-morning on Friday, December 16th. Click here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-12-14-16)?p=5288744#post5288744) for the Release Notes!

Notes:


We have done a character wipe so players can look at Reaper with their most updated characters.
The Lamannia DDO Store is currently unavailable due to a technical issue.
Remember that both Reaper and the new free quest are NOT coming to the game with Update 33 Patch 2, but will tentatively arrive in January.
Update 33 Patch 2 is set to release before the holidays, most likely.
We have a small amount of Reaper rewards in, which are a special form of Mythic Bonus applicable to items in Reaper. Rewards are in a very early state, so anything you see may well change. That's why we're focusing on gameplay, gameplay flow, and difficulty feedback this time around.


We'd love to get your thoughts on Reaper difficulty and the new quest, along with other things you see by actually being on Lamannia. While forum theory-crafting is nice, it's not as valuable as actually checking things out yourself.

At this time we do not have a specific dev meetup planned for this preview.

Gleep_Wurp
12-14-2016, 05:30 PM
We are doing a preview of Update 33 Patch 2 and Update 23 on Lamannia! This preview runs until mid-morning on Friday, December 16th. Click here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-12-14-16)?p=5288744#post5288744) for the Release Notes!

Notes:


We have done a character wipe so players can look at Reaper with their most updated characters.
The Lamannia DDO Store is currently unavailable due to a technical issue.
Remember that both Reaper and the new free quest are NOT coming to the game with Update 33 Patch 2, but will tentatively arrive in January.
Update 33 Patch 2 is set to release before the holidays, most likely.
We have a small amount of Reaper rewards in, which are a special form of Mythic Bonus applicable to items in Reaper. Rewards are in a very early state, so anything you see may well change. That's why we're focusing on gameplay, gameplay flow, and difficulty feedback this time around.


We'd love to get your thoughts on Reaper difficulty and the new quest, along with other things you see by actually being on Lamannia. While forum theory-crafting is nice, it's not as valuable as actually checking things out yourself.

At this time we do not have a specific dev meetup planned for this preview.

someone blew it on the launcher. it cant find the client

Cordovan
12-14-2016, 06:25 PM
someone blew it on the launcher. it cant find the client

I am not having problems on my live play account, and I'm seeing other folks on Lamannia. Is this still happening to you?

Vanhooger
12-14-2016, 06:37 PM
I am not having problems on my live play account, and I'm seeing other folks on Lamannia. Is this still happening to you?
Can we please get Reaper release note, so we know what to test?

Mindos
12-14-2016, 06:48 PM
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-12-14-16)?p=5288744

***We've corrected a long-standing bug where groups of enemies would not aggro correctly. Players will find that they can no longer use a ranged attack to pull singular enemies from a group without aggroing nearby enemies.

I wonder if this will cause more lag. More mobs aware means more cycles, does it not?

***Bluff and Deception will no longer cause bosses and enemies using ranged attacks or spells to turn around.

Wow, this is gonna make some fights a little tougher. As far as I can remember, turning around was a hallmark of bluff. So now we just get an icon, take the hit, and just deal with it?

***Raid and named bosses can no longer be champions.

This time we mean it! :)

***Heroic and Legendary Greensteel handwraps are now available!

Wait, Heroic Greensteel handwraps???? WHA? (this is yuge, absolutley yuge)

***Maps: Fog of War no longer conceals quest and portal entrances.

This is kinda a big change, don't you think? So now we will always have a rough idea of where to go? Why even have fog at all? If the quest is gonna be blinking away anyway...

Gleep_Wurp
12-14-2016, 07:04 PM
I am not having problems on my live play account, and I'm seeing other folks on Lamannia. Is this still happening to you?

im going to check a few things but i just tried again. my guess is something went sideways with my update ,ill probably have to reinstall

ilhares
12-14-2016, 07:14 PM
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-12-14-16)?p=5288744

***Heroic and Legendary Greensteel handwraps are now available!

Wait, Heroic Greensteel handwraps???? WHA? (this is yuge, absolutley yuge)

I think most folks were actually expecting this to happen the moment handwraps became a real weapon. I just can't fathom what I'd want to make out of them... and can I make them, then turn them into a greensteel collar for my dog?

DagazUlf
12-14-2016, 07:23 PM
Can we only use the button in the launcher now?

<imageremoved>

Bad juju showing relative pathing of server stuffs.

Move along. These are not the droids you're looking for.....

DagazUlf
12-14-2016, 07:58 PM
Can we only use the button in the launcher now?


Maybe a forwarded page with info that states something about Character Copy are handled via the Launcher would be a good idea?

Cocomajobo
12-14-2016, 08:05 PM
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-12-14-16)?p=5288744
***Bluff and Deception will no longer cause bosses and enemies using ranged attacks or spells to turn around.

Wow, this is gonna make some fights a little tougher. As far as I can remember, turning around was a hallmark of bluff. So now we just get an icon, take the hit, and just deal with it?


This release note is note entirely accurate: Ranged enemies should still turn around they just no longer have their targeting and patching break after the do so. Then no-turning around notation is accurate about Bosses, however.


https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-12-14-16)?p=5288744
***Raid and named bosses can no longer be champions.

This time we mean it! :)


I do not believe this is true. I do not recall any such fix going in since our last patch.

Cocomajobo
12-14-2016, 08:07 PM
Can we please get Reaper release note, so we know what to test?

We do not currently intend to provide specifics on the mechanics of Reaper mode.

Vanhooger
12-14-2016, 08:43 PM
We do not currently intend to provide specifics on the mechanics of Reaper mode.
Ok, not going to log in lamma so, if I don't know what is working and what not. Sorry :)

Krelar
12-14-2016, 08:59 PM
Stepped into heroic reaper 10 ToEE. One of the champion trash mobs had: damage absorption slash, damage absorption bludgeoning, followed by: damage vulnerability slash, damage vulnerability bludgeoning, and some other stuff. I'm pretty sure the damage absorption was taking precedence as there were a lot of "You did no damage" messages in the combat log but I would think that conflicting absorption/vulnerabilities shouldn't happen.

Ebondevil
12-14-2016, 09:36 PM
***Raid and named bosses can no longer be champions.

This time we mean it! :)

I do not believe this is true. I do not recall any such fix going in since our last patch.



Red and Purple named enemies can no longer erroneously spawn as Champions
Update 33 Patch 1 Release Notes (https://www.ddo.com/en/update-33-patch-1-release-notes)

Red's are typically named, while Purple's are typically Raid, unless there's something I don't know...

But Red's are certainly still showing up as champions on live.
Not seen champions in raids at all though, so can't really comment on that.

Gleep_Wurp
12-14-2016, 10:29 PM
I am not having problems on my live play account, and I'm seeing other folks on Lamannia. Is this still happening to you?

i uninstalled and reinstalled and still no luck.same error. no biggie i just wanted to check out cookie changes.

Mr_Helmet
12-14-2016, 10:43 PM
We do not currently intend to provide specifics on the mechanics of Reaper mode.

How are we supposed to test if something is working as intended if we don't know what is intended?

Steve_Howe
12-14-2016, 11:38 PM
How are we supposed to test if something is working as intended if we don't know what is intended?

Guess?

goldengibblet
12-14-2016, 11:51 PM
How are we supposed to test if something is working as intended if we don't know what is intended?

You have to admit it will reduce the number of bug reports! ;)

Dreppo
12-14-2016, 11:55 PM
Ok, not going to log in lamma so, if I don't know what is working and what not. Sorry :)

Did you die a quick and horrible death? Then it's working.

virtualgib
12-15-2016, 12:36 AM
Did they fix the bug that causes premium and VIP accounts to be downgraded to free to play on the live server after visiting lamannia?

MrWindupBird
12-15-2016, 12:47 AM
Looking forward to checking out the new Lama build. It would be great if you could leave Lama-land open for a while- past previews have been excessively short, and I have been unable to make time to test.

kmoustakas
12-15-2016, 03:26 AM
So basically reaper is what 'old epic' used to be. Can epic quests go back to being called 'level 21-34' quests? Because this whole epic casual is still getting on my nerves after all these years.

Vanhooger
12-15-2016, 04:47 AM
Did you die a quick and horrible death? Then it's working.

Well oneshot is nothing new at this point, know how the reaper work would be nice if we have to report bug. If we don't know what is WAI and what is not WAI without a mere reference doesn't help at alll, it's just a wasted time in the lama server for me.

Sam-u-r-eye
12-15-2016, 05:58 AM
We do not currently intend to provide specifics on the mechanics of Reaper mode.

I think hoog makes a very good point.

I can see that maybe you would want people to experience before playing "forum ddo" with the results. Many people like complaining and discussing something more than playing it.

At some point I believe you should come out with release notes. I know that it looks like a lot of work.
If you do not then I will.
And I might slip some lies in there just to be cute.
Not because I intended to but because that happens.

I'll set this aside though...

Cheers. Ran some of Reaper 3 new quest last night. It was fun. And things are shaping up~~~

Vanhooger
12-15-2016, 06:25 AM
I think hoog makes a very good point.

I can see that maybe you would want people to experience before playing "forum ddo" with the results. Many people like complaining and discussing something more than playing it.

At some point I believe you should come out with release notes. I know that it looks like a lot of work.
If you do not then I will.
And I might slip some lies in there just to be cute.
Not because I intended to but because that happens.

I'll set this aside though...

Cheers. Ran some of Reaper 3 new quest last night. It was fun. And things are shaping up~~~

To see if Reaper is really challenging, it would be nice to try shroud 10 skull. If people can beat it already, we have an answer. If we can't beat it that's a nice start maybe.

BigErkyKid
12-15-2016, 06:35 AM
If you really want to fix monk finishers you need to reduce the casting time. This is two pieces:

- Cool down between casting: 3 seconds for same strike

- Animation of casting: needs to be faster.

This would go a long way in making people use the finishers. Otherwise most single target effects are not worth it, since enemies are dead by the time you finish applying them. Bosses are not affected by a lot of them, so...

DYWYPI
12-15-2016, 06:37 AM
I've successfully used Lamania in the past this year but looks like something is awry for me this time...

For whatever reason, when I select the [Play] button (for Lamania) I get a Message file lookup box saying: "Where is the game client Executable?"

Even if I select the *.exe from that box, which erroneously pops up; nothing happens but an Error message: "Failed to start Client [...]" so I CANNOT even login to Lamannia server. I haven't changed anything since the previous Lamania preview earlier this year. :-/

Gargoyle69
12-15-2016, 07:25 AM
Feedback on the Monk changes: (skip to end for summary)

Setup:
I created a brand new Level 20 pure monk, gave it some gear from the Training Dojo (mostly Eveningstar Commendation gear) and compared a baseline to a Shintao wraps build and a Henshin staff build for some stats, then tried running the two specs thru Grim & Barret on EH (Level 31, so 11 levels higher than the character).

Gear & Stats:
+20 BAB (Flurry of Blows)
+9 Atk & +13 Dmg (28 Dex) - wraps count as 2H wpns for purposes of 150% stat bonus to dmg so same for staves as wraps
+6 Deadly item (no accuracy item)
+2 Atk & Dmg (Sun Soul Set Bonus)

Baseline
--------
Enhancements & EDs:
Dex to hit and dmg (Ninja C1 & C3)

Grave Wrappings - +37 Atk, 5d6 +27 dmg (BDR 24.68), Crit 19-20/x2
Scraps of Enlightenment - +36 Atk, 5.5d6 +26 dmg (BDR 26.40), Crit 19-20/x2
Stout Oak Walking Stick - +37 Atk, 4d6 +27 dmg (BDR 24.00), Crit 19-20/x3
Epic Staff of Nat Gann - +37 Atk, 4d6 +27 dmg (BDR 23.00), Crit 17-20/x2

(Sidenote: SO silly that you have to look at the Inv UI panel to see the crit threat range (cos the pop-up tooltip is wrong) and the pop-up tooltip to see the multiplier (cos the Inv UI panel is wrong) - can we please have one of them be correct on both stats ? - it doesn't really matter which one !

Shintao Build
-------------
Enhancements & EDs:
+4 Atk (US Cores)
+1.5[w] (Dance of Flowers)
+4 Atk & Dmg w/ wraps (Elemental Curatives)
+1[w] (Touch the Void Dragon)
+2[w] (To Seek Perfection)

Grave Wrappings - +45 Atk, 9.5d6 +31 dmg (BDR 24.68), Crit 18-20/x3
Scraps of Enlightenment - +44 Atk, 10d6 +26 dmg (BDR 26.40), Crit 18-20/x3

Henshin Build
-------------
Enhancements & EDs:
+4 Atk (US Cores)
+1.5[w] (Dance of Flowers) - staffs get twice the bonus if they are base [2d6] as they gain 1.5[2d6]
+7 Atk & +9 Dmg w/ staves (Henshin Staff Training)
+4 Atk & +2 Dmg (Focus) - buff tooltip & enhancement UI & combat log all state diff values

Stout Oak Walking Stick - +52 Atk, 7d6 +38 dmg (BDR 24.00), Crit 18-20/x4
Epic Staff of Nat Gann - +52 Atk, 7d6 +38 dmg (BDR 23.00), Crit 16-20/x3


Confirmed Fixed / Working (at least in the tooltips & Inv UI pane):
-------------------------
Elemental Curatives Line adds to Atk & Dmg w/ Wraps, Empty Hand Mastery adds crit range & multiplier
HP bonus from Meditation of War now stacks with Vigor of Battle (not sure if this is what was meant by "not a defensive stance" ?)
MP & [w] added to Shintao C18 & C20 appears to work
Cauldron of Flame provding bonuses to PRR, MRR, Dodge, Atk, Dmg & Crit Multiplier

Appears Bugged:
--------------
Focus - Enhancement UI says +10 Spellpower, +5 Atk, +5 MP & RP,
Buff Tooltip says +6 Spellpower, +2 Atk, +4 Dmg,
Combat Log & Inv UI say +9 Spellpower, +4 Atk, +2 Dmg

Damage of Henshin Abilities:
---------------------------
Ki Bolt - 200 - 300 points
Incin Wave: 200 - 300 points
Cauldraon of Flame: 200-300 pts first tick up to 700-800 pts final tick


Grim & Barett runs:
----------------------
Similar performance, the Shintao Build took 17 mins 9 secs compared to the Henshin Build time of 21 mins 47 secs. The Henshin build did ok and only had to resort to using Renew for the last big group before the final boss, for the rest of the time healing ki was sufficient (Shintao build never needed it).

Henshin build was more "on and off" in that when Cauldron is up, it feels strong, but when it's down, it feels weak. Same with Quick Strike, when it's up, attack speed feels fast, when it's down, feels slow. Whereas the Shintao build just always felt consistently solid. Henshin build definitely has more AoE buttons to push, esp when combined with Flash bang (which works much better now),

Stunning bonuses to finishing moves is great, with a Stunning Fist DC of 51, Unbalancing Strike DC 61, and The Raging Sea DC 64 (and of course, 3 x Unbalancing Strikes primes The Raging Sea), which is a big playstyle improvement. Similarly, 3 Knock on the Sky's primes The Gathering Storm. These now give meaningful alternatives to just repeating Triple-Light -> Healing Ki endlessly forever. QP of 34 is laughable and not worth using.

Wraps hit-box seems as advertised (ie back to original), I had no issue being in close enough (unless I'd just switched from playing the staff spec and it took me a few mins to get used to it again!).

Diversion felt nice with the sneak attack boost, and since it's no longer linked to meditation uses, it's something to use frequently, I liked it.


Summary:
------------

Finishing moves DC bonuses from Stunning Items makes them feel like real alternatives now, honestly this might be the best thing to ever happen to monks. If only something could be done about QP.
Shintao changes of fixing wraps hit-boxes & Meditation of War, updating Ki Shout, and adding the extra dice into the top cores, has nicely rounded out the wraps & Shintao play style.
Ninja changes seem good although I didn't try a full Dark-side, poison-using, SS-wielder. Would be good to hear from someone on that.
Henshin still feels weak, Bolt & Wave still don't do enough dmg to bother using them, Cauldron of Flame feels nice when it's up but the fact that it's a) stationary, b) only does decent dmg right at the end, and c) only up half the time at most, means that it's still more painful than anything to use, I still wouldn't recommend it for anything other than flavour.

cdbd3rd
12-15-2016, 07:56 AM
.... and Update 23 on Lamannia! .....


Woo-hoo! Server rollbacks for everyones!!!

:p :D

BigErkyKid
12-15-2016, 08:29 AM
If you really want to fix monk finishers you need to reduce the casting time. This is two pieces:

- Cool down between casting: 3 seconds for same strike

- Animation of casting: needs to be faster.

This would go a long way in making people use the finishers. Otherwise most single target effects are not worth it, since enemies are dead by the time you finish applying them. Bosses are not affected by a lot of them, so...

Also, increase and scale the freaking buffs from shintao!!

1 min duration requiring around 10 sec cast is a pain in the butt. And they haven't been scaled in too many years, most of the damage is low, the debuffa small

Cordovan
12-15-2016, 10:35 AM
How are we supposed to test if something is working as intended if we don't know what is intended?

The main things we are looking to hear from you about is your general experience in running various quests on various difficulties of Reaper, what kind of things you experience and discover when fighting enemies, and your overall impressions of Reaper difficulty.


Well oneshot is nothing new at this point, know how the reaper work would be nice if we have to report bug. If we don't know what is WAI and what is not WAI without a mere reference doesn't help at alll, it's just a wasted time in the lama server for me.

What kind of granular information do you feel needs to be answered? Obviously it doesn't make sense to get too specific, since part of the point of Reaper is to not provide our most hardcore players with a clear spreadsheet on how to min/max it. That said, if you encounter something while actually running Reaper on Lamannia, and have a question whether it is intended, let us know, and we will do our best to respond to it.

Cordovan
12-15-2016, 10:35 AM
Woo-hoo! Server rollbacks for everyones!!!

:p :D

Retro is hot this holiday season.

Severlin
12-15-2016, 11:18 AM
How are we supposed to test if something is working as intended if we don't know what is intended?

We are still looking for qualitative rather than quantitative testing. That said, here is what we are looking for.

~ Could you complete Reaper dungeons?
~ What level of Skulls could you play and still find success?
~ What strategies did you use?
~ Did the mana gems that enemies can drop help casters deal with increased mana usage higher difficulty provides?
~ Did you encounter all the different types of Reapers? How did you deal with them?

The current design is balanced around Reaper 1-3, with extreme groups venturing into the 4-6 range. Higher than that should be virtually impossible - though players love to prove us wrong.

Sev~

Mr_Helmet
12-15-2016, 11:18 AM
. . .and your overall impressions of Reaper difficulty.

If you want something vague, we'll stick with vague. Your current implementation makes me want to never spend another cent on this game.

This is of course assuming everything I saw last night was WAI, something which you won't answer.

JOTMON
12-15-2016, 11:20 AM
We do not currently intend to provide specifics on the mechanics of Reaper mode.


are you still intending undead form to be the ideal self healing.. still no penalties for negative self healing...

Forged are still overly penalized in the healing zone.

and are you messing with healing amp on fleshies? the healing drop on self healing has drastically reduced from last test stage.

Forgot to test Vampirism..

Severlin
12-15-2016, 11:22 AM
Stepped into heroic reaper 10 ToEE. One of the champion trash mobs had: damage absorption slash, damage absorption bludgeoning, followed by: damage vulnerability slash, damage vulnerability bludgeoning, and some other stuff. I'm pretty sure the damage absorption was taking precedence as there were a lot of "You did no damage" messages in the combat log but I would think that conflicting absorption/vulnerabilities shouldn't happen.

Thanks for the feedback! We are working on Champion changes to alleviate this issue.

Sev~

Mr_Helmet
12-15-2016, 11:24 AM
We are still looking for qualitative rather than quantitative testing. That said, here is what we are looking for.

~ Could you complete Reaper dungeons?
~ What level of Skulls could you play and still find success?
~ What strategies did you use?
~ Did the mana gems that enemies can drop help casters deal with increased mana usage higher difficulty provides?
~ Did you encounter all the different types of Reapers? How did you deal with them?

Sev~

Good questions, we'll get you some answers tonight with some high-level highest-skulls possible when everyone gets home from work tonight.

Severlin
12-15-2016, 11:33 AM
are you still intending undead form to be the ideal self healing.. still no penalties for negative self healing...

Forged are still overly penalized in the healing zone.

and are you messing with healing amp on fleshies? the healing drop on self healing has drastically reduced from last test stage.

Forgot to test Vampirism..

~ Bug. Thought it was fixed, will look into it.

~ Self healing should be based in Reaper level, ranging from a 0.4 mod for Reaper 1 all the way down to 0.04 on Reaper 10.

~ Forged should have the same penalties as fleshies?

Sev~

Mr_Helmet
12-15-2016, 11:36 AM
~ Bug. Thought it was fixed, will look into it.

~ Self healing should be based in Reaper level, ranging from a 0.4 mod for Reaper 1 all the way down to 0.04 on Reaper 10.

~ Forged should have the same penalties as fleshies?

Sev~

Thank you for answering that what we're seeing, except for PMs, is WAI.

Vanhooger
12-15-2016, 11:40 AM
~ Bug. Thought it was fixed, will look into it.

~ Self healing should be based in Reaper level, ranging from a 0.4 mod for Reaper 1 all the way down to 0.04 on Reaper 10.

~ Forged should have the same penalties as fleshies?

Sev~

That's why we asked for release note so you could sopt bug earlier and fix it.

Thrudh
12-15-2016, 11:45 AM
Thank you for answering that what we're seeing, except for PMs, is WAI.

Why is this hard for you?

Post what you think it broken, and they will directly answer if it is or not...

Another guy did this, got a direct answer from Sev.

Like, 3 posts above yours.

JOTMON
12-15-2016, 11:49 AM
~ Bug. Thought it was fixed, will look into it.

~ Self healing should be based in Reaper level, ranging from a 0.4 mod for Reaper 1 all the way down to 0.04 on Reaper 10.

~ Forged should have the same penalties as fleshies?

Sev~

Thanks for the response..

Forged... Could be just me , my forged seems to be getting a significantly lower repair and correspondingly heal result than my fleshie. will test some numbers when I get back on..
Healing from others onto forged is still punitive since forged lack heal amps and healers are not repair oriented.. may have to roll up a forged repair bot to test...

Fleshie.. was just self testing heals on my fleshie with high heal amp, numbers appeared low, and definitely lower from last round of testing.. didn't do any extended testing for number scales... yet....

Vanhooger
12-15-2016, 11:49 AM
Why is this hard for you?

Post what you think it broken, and they will directly answer if it is or not...

Another guy did this, got a direct answer from Sev.

Like, 3 posts above yours.

Why we have to guess when we would already know the answer with a release note?
It this a new game? Find the bug if you're good and we give you a candy?

Loromir
12-15-2016, 12:03 PM
Why we have to guess when we would already know the answer with a release note?
It this a new game? Find the bug if you're good and we give you a candy?

I believe in this case...the devs are not specifically asking us to look for bugs (Maybe a fool hearty concept). I think their sole idea here is for us to judge difficulty. They are using this time on lamania to determine the level of scaling necessary.

I suspect after they get the fix on scaling, then they will ask us to look for bugs.

Just my impressions....

Severlin
12-15-2016, 12:13 PM
One factor is that Reaper is not being released with the next patch; we are not in the stage where we are only interested in fixing bugs. We are taking much more time working on initial impressions and play balance because it is new territory. Another factor is we want players to learn by experimenting with it; that makes it hard to maintain a balance of eliciting player feedback but not ruining the exploratory aspect of it.

Sev~

Vanhooger
12-15-2016, 12:16 PM
One factor is that Reaper is not being released with the next patch; we are not in the stage where we are only interested in fixing bugs. We are taking much more time working on initial impressions and play balance because it is new territory. Another factor is we want players to learn by experimenting with it; that makes it hard to maintain a balance of eliciting player feedback but not ruining the exploratory aspect of it.

Sev~

Ok, make sense, ty.

PuppiesAndRainbows
12-15-2016, 12:24 PM
Lesser Vampirism isn't working on Ivy Wraps crafted collar. Spiked works, but no poison or bleed.

Crafted collar with force, bludgeon, vampirism, and a ruby of flame....nothing, only slashing damage

Sam-u-r-eye
12-15-2016, 12:42 PM
One factor is that Reaper is not being released with the next patch; we are not in the stage where we are only interested in fixing bugs. We are taking much more time working on initial impressions and play balance because it is new territory. Another factor is we want players to learn by experimenting with it; that makes it hard to maintain a balance of eliciting player feedback but not ruining the exploratory aspect of it.

Sev~

+1

Recommendation: increase self healing enough to be viable at 10 skull. A player can reasonably deal with .2 but .04 is impossible.
Reasoning: for me this isn't about soloing so much as immersion and continuity with the rest of the game. It makes sense that a person's heals would be less effective than another person's. The healer should be able to reasonably heal himself at extra cost though. I know my guildies feel this way in a uniform manner after playing through the new quest on skull 3 last night.

I go on about this here with more quality post, but I hope you'll look at it. Thanks: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/481600-Self-healing

Cordovan
12-15-2016, 12:52 PM
We've set tonight for Cocomajobo and KookieKobold to hang out with you on Lamannia tonight and get some direct feedback on Reaper difficulty! Join them on Lamannia from 8:00pm to 10:00pm Eastern tonight (Thursday, December 15th).

Cleanincubus
12-15-2016, 01:14 PM
Here's a weird bug.

Just ran the new quest, and when I finished out, the quest giver is missing. Can't even target him with "Q". Went inside the bank, still gone, went into Lordsmarch Plaza, still gone when I came back to the Marketplace. Logged out and back in, still gone.

BigErkyKid
12-15-2016, 01:15 PM
+1

Recommendation: increase self healing enough to be viable at 10 skull. A player can reasonably deal with .2 but .04 is impossible.
Reasoning: for me this isn't about soloing so much as immersion and continuity with the rest of the game. It makes sense that a person's heals would be less effective than another person's. The healer should be able to reasonably heal himself at extra cost though. I know my guildies feel this way in a uniform manner after playing through the new quest on skull 3 last night.

I go on about this here with more quality post, but I hope you'll look at it. Thanks: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/481600-Self-healing

Listent to this guy.

That's why mournlanders are a key concept. You guys don't want to spoil the surprise, but we need full information to provide good feedback. Right now too many bugs floating around to have a good measure of it.

Recruit a bunch of these "elitist jerks" to beta test things and I am sure that they can provide excellent feedback.

Mr_Helmet
12-15-2016, 01:16 PM
Why is this hard for you?

Post what you think it broken, and they will directly answer if it is or not...

Another guy did this, got a direct answer from Sev.

Like, 3 posts above yours.

So, have you run ANYTHING on Lamania at all? Ever?

Mr_Helmet
12-15-2016, 01:19 PM
Recruit a bunch of these "elitist jerks" to beta test things and I am sure that they can provide excellent feedback.

Why do that? There are plenty of people who can give them tons of feedback without ever running the content.

Cocomajobo
12-15-2016, 01:20 PM
Here's a weird bug.

Just ran the new quest, and when I finished out, the quest giver is missing. Can't even target him with "Q". Went inside the bank, still gone, went into Lordsmarch Plaza, still gone when I came back to the Marketplace. Logged out and back in, still gone.

This is not a bug. We have the Questgiver set to, by default, not be active because we are not releasing the new quest in our next patch (even though it will be in the build data). We had been manually activating him in the marketplace and the Test Dojo for people to use but it seems the Marketplace instance closed because no one was there for a while. We've re-enabled him and parked an Admin character in the Marketplace to keep it open. =]

BigErkyKid
12-15-2016, 01:21 PM
Why do that? There are plenty of people who can give them tons of feedback without ever running the content.

Ouch. If that was meant to be a punch to me.

But I take it well. Yes, I am a strong proponent of math based feedback. I do still feel though that there needs to be a "feel" element to it, and I would trust that some of our finest combine the math talent with the good gameplay needed to test things.

Mr_Helmet
12-15-2016, 01:24 PM
Ouch. If that was meant to be a punch to me.

But I take it well. Yes, I am a strong proponent of math based feedback. I do still feel though that there needs to be a "feel" element to it, and I would trust that some of our finest combine the math talent with the good gameplay needed to test things.

Wasn't at you.

And math still doesn't solve anything, ever :)

Krelar
12-15-2016, 01:33 PM
~ Forged should have the same penalties as fleshies?


I haven't tried a fleshie yet, but one possible issue is that they can get their healing amp much higher than forged can get their repair amp.

Cleanincubus
12-15-2016, 01:48 PM
This is not a bug. We have the Questgiver set to, by default, not be active because we are not releasing the new quest in our next patch (even though it will be in the build data). We had been manually activating him in the marketplace and the Test Dojo for people to use but it seems the Marketplace instance closed because no one was there for a while. We've re-enabled him and parked an Admin character in the Marketplace to keep it open. =]

So you're saying my character is so gimped that the Instance closed, because I took too long to do the quest. ;)

Thank you for the response, I'll check the Dojo for him in case he disappears again.

cru121
12-15-2016, 02:05 PM
I've completed the new quest (Heroic) on a Reaper 1 Skull setting. I was on my lvl 15 PDK warlock mule.

* temp HP are not affected by Reaper. Go team warlocks!
* What are the magic orbs for? My warlock does not use spell points much, so thanks to orbs I did not have to shrine. Kinda seems easier than Elite in this aspect.
* The wraiths did not increase the difficulty of the quest for a warlock with inherent AoE attacks.
* I did not see any rewards for reaper, except extra XP for completing.
* The quest giver did not acknowledge my completion and did not give me any reward.

(I did elite earlier and I did get end reward for that completion).

Alcedes
12-15-2016, 02:31 PM
We are still looking for qualitative rather than quantitative testing. That said, here is what we are looking for.

~ Could you complete Reaper dungeons?
~ What level of Skulls could you play and still find success?
~ What strategies did you use?
~ Did the mana gems that enemies can drop help casters deal with increased mana usage higher difficulty provides?
~ Did you encounter all the different types of Reapers? How did you deal with them?

The current design is balanced around Reaper 1-3, with extreme groups venturing into the 4-6 range. Higher than that should be virtually impossible - though players love to prove us wrong.

Sev~

havent logged on to play yet...but are tanks still getting 1-2 hit killed by basically everything? tanks wanna play and enjoy reaper too homie...we cant all be kiters.

DYWYPI
12-15-2016, 03:44 PM
I did a reinstall of Lamannia, again it looked like it was functioning... Until pressing [Play] button it giving the same error entiled: "Where is the game client Executable?" If you click any of the *.exe (from the list) or press Cancel, it results in the following message:

[image was set to auto expire after 7-days]

In the past I've been able to login to Lamannia. But this time its looking very unlikely I'll be able to join you guys today but have fun anyway. Hopefully, the same fault doesn't reoccur in the next official release.

edrein
12-15-2016, 05:00 PM
Is it honestly too late to provide suggestions and feedback for Ninja Spy? I mean it's clear that this build will be the update released most likely next week, but is it possible to revisit ninja spy when update 34 is released in January? The constant 5d6 sneak damage is a minor damage buff in the long haul, and the 20 second clicky for the same amount is rather paltry when the cooldown is considered. Take in consideration the other two 'sneak attack' heavy trees (barring rogue's natural sneak damage die progression); Deepwood Stalker gains 6d6 sneak attack from the core abilities and Assassin gains 4d6 in the core with another 4d6 in the enhancement lines. As of this update Ninja Spy will have the ability to deal 9d6 sneak damage before using the clicky, which is a good amount. The problem comes from the differences in trees fully.

Both Assassin (Assassin actually has two) and Deepwood Stalker gain abilities that reduce enemy fortication and creates sneak attack opportunities without requiring a save or any form of itemization/stating. With the recent 'pass' in update 33, the Unbalancing Strike was added which atleast removes sneak attack immunity at the downside of having both a DC for negating and periodic saves on the effect. This gap is widened by the fact that both Assassin's Trick and Mark of the Hunted remove fortification.

However, this is even further exaggerated by the abilities in both of these trees compared to Ninja Spy. Both have strong in-tree synergies that don't require multiclassing (Or even using a different tree in their class) to feel adequately powerful. Assassin's gain one of arguably the best instakill abilities in the game through Assassinate; additionally after their pass they gained a passive 30 melee power buff for simply staying in sneak which they were already doing to boost their assassinate DC. On the other hand Deepwood gained 20 MP/RP, +4 Dex, and +3d6 sneak attack in their capstone; not even mentioning the MP/RP, damage boosts, etc. in the T5 lineup. Both of these trees share the coveted Killer enhancement for the +20% morale doublestrike/doubleshot, and you even gave Deepwood an additional +10% doublestrike and +20% doubleshot T5. Assassin Poisons are incredibly useful but yet we didn't see Ninja Spy's poisons remotely get a similar treatment in either effects or updates to the Ninjitsu line.

In the case of buffing 'tree themed' weapons, assassins again have the ultimate advantage. At level 12 their T5 gives daggers +1 to multiplier and range, while their core 18 doubles the multiplier damage to an x4 base for daggers. That makes your average untouched dagger turn into a 18-20x4 before Improved Critical/Keen, Overwhelming, etc. On the recent spectrum the T5 for Ninja Spy; Deadly Striker gives +1 threat range to non-handwraps or quarterstaves, while also giving +2 threat range to shurikens and kamas. While a ninja spy doesn't get their +1 crit multiplier until their capstone at 20. That means in comparison your average untouched kama is now a 18-20x3 before Improved Critical/Keen, Overwhelming, etc. Now take into consideration that there are plenty of named daggers with unique profiles, damage, effects, etc. at all levels while there is a total of five unique named kamas in the game, you can see a bit of a problem here.

Additionally; we've gone through a full update and most likely two patches before Ninja Spy has had it's enhancements or their costs tweaked. Most of the Enhancements are severely outdated, remnants of the original Enhancement Pass over 3 years ago. But even then most of them were legacy holdovers from the original Ninja Spy enhancements. Things like No Mercy being 2AP per rank, while the same T4 for Acrobats is 1AP per rank. Deadly Exploit 2AP per rank, should be brought down to 1AP per rank as well and double checked to work with the new Poison Exploit damage formula. Sting of the Ninja is weak; especially compared to direct damage weapon toggles/effects such as: Venomed Blades, Kinetic Bond, Storm Dancer, and especially Lighting the Candle with the buff to its damage in this patch.

What I would suggest is take the 5d6 sneak attack from capstone and redistribute it in the cores, but not as sneak attack damage. Instead redistribute it as poison damage to capitalize on both the theme of Ninja Spy and Ninja Poison's vulnerability portion. Change the cores as follows: Basic Ninja Training (Level 1) weapons gain 1d4 poison on hit, Advanced Ninja Training (Level 3) weapons gain 1d8 poison on hit, Shadow Veil (Level 6) gains 1d6 sneak attack die, Poisoned Darts (Level 12) turns the poison damage into a 3d8, Diversion (Level 18) gives 1d6 sneak attack die and +5% stacking Incorporeal or +5 Dodge Cap, and finally Ninja Master (Level 20) turns the poison damage into 5d8. This scaling gives Ninja Spy a similar base damage increase similar to Keeper of the Chalice while maintaining the unique identity of Ninja Spy's poisoning nature without adding purely late core damage in the form of another active ability on an already overactive class and a big capstone sneak boost without the means to make it consistently damage most enemies.

The only overall big change besides the cores would be the T5s. Ninja Spy is arguably a TWF tree by design, however they lack a boost to their offhand chance. Yes, you can pick up Deft Strikes from Shintao for 10% which is fine, however they lack the ability to take Meditations of War as well and gain full offhand bonus. I would suggest changing Crippling Strike to the following: Crippling Strike: On damage you have a 10% chance to hamstring a target for 50% move speed, as well as increasing your offhand chance by 10%.
Touch of Death also needs to have Stunning Bonuses added to it's calculations like every other monk finisher/ability to match the rest.
This also applies to Fists of Darkness and Touch of Despair, and the rest of the Dark Finishers as none of them were effected in the Lamania Patch despite the patch notes.
Deadly Striker needs one last tweak; please, please, please finally allow us to be centered with default monk proficiency weapons. Let Deadly Striker center us with daggers, handaxes, and crossbows. Let Henshin Mystic or Shintao center you with clubs.

All in all it's a long rant on changes and balance, but I think this would overall help the Ninja Spy tree feel balanced compared to similar trees of other classes and competitive with the updated Shintao (especially with their +3W boost) and Henshin's insane multipliers during Cauldron of Flame.

Gleep_Wurp
12-15-2016, 05:21 PM
I did a reinstall of Lamannia, again it looked like it was functioning... Until pressing [Play] button it giving the same error entiled: "Where is the game client Executable?" If you click any of the *.exe (from the list) or press Cancel, it results in the following message:

http://uploadpie.com/gbkmj

In the past I've been able to login to Lamannia. But this time its looking very unlikely I'll be able to join you guys today but have fun anyway. Hopefully, the same fault doesn't reoccur in the next official release.

but i no longer care.

Zyrca
12-15-2016, 05:50 PM
I did a reinstall of Lamannia, again it looked like it was functioning... Until pressing [Play] button it giving the same error entiled: "Where is the game client Executable?" If you click any of the *.exe (from the list) or press Cancel, it results in the following message:

http://uploadpie.com/gbkmj

In the past I've been able to login to Lamannia. But this time its looking very unlikely I'll be able to join you guys today but have fun anyway. Hopefully, the same fault doesn't reoccur in the next official release.

Hi DYWYPI,

I took a look at the code and have a couple of questions.

Could you take a look in your install directory, which is "C:\Program Files (x86)\Turbine\Dungeons & Dragons Online (Preview)" by default, and let me know if "turbineclientlauncher.exe" is in there? If it is, could you take a look at TurbineLauncher.exe.config in a text editor and see if it looks like this:



<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<configuration>
<system.windows.forms jitDebugging="true"/>
<startup>
<requiredRuntime version="V1.1.4322" safemode="true"/>
<supportedRuntime version="V1.1.4322" />
</startup>
<appSettings>
<add key="Launcher.DataCenterService.GLS" value="http://gls-lm.ddo.com/GLS.DataCenterServer/Service.asmx"/>

<add key="DataCenter.GameName" value="DDO"/>
<add key="DataCenter.DefaultCenter" value="DDO"/>
<add key="Product.DocumentFolder" value="Dungeons and Dragons Online"/>
<add key="Launcher.DocumentFolder" value="Launcher"/>
</appSettings>
</configuration>


The other thing that would be helpful is if you can find your DNDLauncher.log, it should be located in %localappdata%\Turbine\Dungeons and Dragons Online\Launcher (you can copy that and paste it into a Windows Explorer bar, the %localappdata% will expand into something like C:\Users\YOU\AppData\Local\Turbine\Dungeons and Dragons Online\Launcher).

My first suggestion is to select the turbineclientlauncher.exe when the dialog comes up asking for the game executable - if that's not the thing you've been selecting.

If that doesn't work and you are comfortable with trying a shot in the dark, my suggestion would be to modify your TurbineLauncher.exe.config so it looks like this (make sure the path is the same as your install directory, and make sure to replace any & characters with "&amp;"):



<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<configuration>
<system.windows.forms jitDebugging="true"/>
<startup>
<requiredRuntime version="V1.1.4322" safemode="true"/>
<supportedRuntime version="V1.1.4322" />
</startup>
<appSettings>

<!-- Add the following line: -->
<add authoritative="true" key="GameClient.WIN32.Filename" value="C:\Program Files (x86)\Turbine\Dungeons &amp; Dragons Online (Preview)\turbineclientlauncher.exe" />

<add key="Launcher.DataCenterService.GLS" value="http://gls-lm.ddo.com/GLS.DataCenterServer/Service.asmx"/>

<add key="DataCenter.GameName" value="DDO"/>
<add key="DataCenter.DefaultCenter" value="DDO"/>
<add key="Product.DocumentFolder" value="Dungeons and Dragons Online"/>
<add key="Launcher.DocumentFolder" value="Launcher"/>
</appSettings>
</configuration>

Gargoyle69
12-15-2016, 06:01 PM
math still doesn't solve anything, ever :)

Quantum mechanics says hi.

Severlin
12-15-2016, 07:16 PM
+1

Recommendation: increase self healing enough to be viable at 10 skull. A player can reasonably deal with .2 but .04 is impossible.
Reasoning: for me this isn't about soloing so much as immersion and continuity with the rest of the game. It makes sense that a person's heals would be less effective than another person's. The healer should be able to reasonably heal himself at extra cost though. I know my guildies feel this way in a uniform manner after playing through the new quest on skull 3 last night.

I go on about this here with more quality post, but I hope you'll look at it. Thanks: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/481600-Self-healing

We can look into making it ratchet down to 0.2 instead of 0.04 at the high end. I don't *think* that would remove the value of having people rewarded for teamwork by healing each other so it's worth looking into.

Sev~

deconedi
12-15-2016, 09:35 PM
My wiz have 94 enchant dc, in the new quest i found orcs with super will save, im sad cause in the slavers lords repaer mode (10 skulls) i got mobs in the cc but in the new quest (ee dif.) i cant cc nothing lol.

Mr_Helmet
12-15-2016, 09:51 PM
We can look into making it ratchet down to 0.2 instead of 0.04 at the high end. I don't *think* that would remove the value of having people rewarded for teamwork by healing each other so it's worth looking into.

Sev~

Having done a bunch of 5-10 skull stuff tonight, I have to say you could remove this penalty completely and it would be fine.

Sam-u-r-eye
12-15-2016, 10:02 PM
We can look into making it ratchet down to 0.2 instead of 0.04 at the high end. I don't *think* that would remove the value of having people rewarded for teamwork by healing each other so it's worth looking into.

Sev~

Cheers. Besides fear reapers aggroing through walls, the terror!, it was my #1 thing after tonight's runs.
Reaper looks to stay with the game as a meat and potatoes update across all quests.

I will post up a montage of myself dying.

Wongar
12-15-2016, 11:32 PM
I want to start by saying I had all but quit playing (was just doing a static group once a week) until I became aware of Reaper. The prospect of Reaper has brought me back to the game again and has me excited about the future.

I got on Lam for the first time ever tonight to check out Reaper. I play a tank and wanted to find a group to play with. Unfortunately I was unable to find anyone to group with so ended up soloing.

I started with Curse the Sky - 5 skull. Being a tank and with the healing debuff, I struggled solo - cleared the first group and died after a dropping down through the gate. I viewed this as a success in that I felt the mobs were tankable at 5 skulls. My incoming damage was high and spiky but I felt a healer could have easily kept up with it and done other things. A tank will need a large HP pool to give others time to react to the spikes (I had about 4k). Without the healing debuff I believe that my self-heals could have easily kept up with incoming damage. With the debuff and the longer fight due to reduced damage, it is a battle I could never survive without anothers help.

I didn't have alot of time so I decided to drop down to an easier quest and went to Lords of Dust - again on 5 skulls. I soloed it (no deaths) without too much difficulty - never really felt in danger as my self heals could outpace the incoming damage. Quest took awhile and the end fight seemed a bit drug out as it took a long time to beat down the last boss.

Things I noticed after completion - possible bugs?
- There is a line for Reaper Exp, it was 0
- The quest did not complete when the final boss died. The recall button changed to finish but the quest report still showed it in underway and I did not get the end of quest stats like Completion Time. All required objectives were completed and checked. Also I finished out and did not get spell point or hit points back similar to how it would be if you recalled.
- The spell point gems didn't impact me much as I don't normally use a lot of SP but they did remove any concern of SP limits so I could spam self heals even when I didn't really need them.

After finishing I joined a group (well 1 other person) running the quest on 10 skulls. When I got to the door it reported 5 skulls when I clicked to enter. (This was the same as my last run - 5 skulls) Another person joined the group and said it reported 1 skull for them. Guessing the skulls on the entry screen is not being reported correctly for quests in progress.
There was no healing in the group besides mine and I could not come close to keeping up with damage with little/no help, nor could I heal the others as they were getting one-shotted. We only made it to the first mini-boss.

All-in-all I was pretty happy with the experience from my limited time. My tank is very close to a finished build. He has all the past lifes that will help and an almost optimal gear set. He can tank pretty much anything in the current game with no help so I was happy to see there would be a new challenge for him. I was also happy to see the challenge is not currently impossible. I have seen some fear on the forums that tanks would be useless as they would be one shotted. Based on my experience, this may be the case on the very hardest difficulty but there will be a large range where a tank will be very effective with some external healing help.

Wongar
12-16-2016, 12:48 AM
So who needs to sleep - decided to give Curse the Sky another run, this time at 3 skulls solo.

Was doing fine till I got to the bottom of the Stairs with the group of Saalds - two were champs and two reapers showed up. The fight was going poorly for me so I pulled the fight to within running distance of a shrine where I died from massive Fear Reaper damage. I waited for what appeared to be a death timer and them ran to the shrine. The shrine room was clear of mobs - when I hit the res shrine I was immediately killed again by Fear reaper damage. I didn't show any DOTS or lingering effects before the raise or after the immediate death. Nor did I see any mobs anywhere close or within sight of me. Combat log said I was killed by a Fear Reaper both times.

Is it WAI that a death from a Fear Reaper lingers and kills you again right after a raise? Or do the reapers do something interesting like invis and follow the dead so they can attack again?

Also in the end fight with the Fear Reaper, Famine Reaper, and Carnage Reaper up there was some weird behavior that seemed like lag but different. Fight went to yellow alert with the spawns and it seems at times I could move very slowly but the mobs could not move at all. I am guessing my slow movement speed was from a debuff but I don't recall ever seeing mobs frozen while I could move like this before. This was for a short time so could have been just a weird lag spike but thought I'd pass it along given it is Lam and new and all.

PsychoBlonde
12-16-2016, 01:07 AM
In the quest text from Bix when you ask "who is T the Antiquarian?" he says "he set up his front hall set up"

Redundant text is redundant.

Natashaelle
12-16-2016, 01:17 AM
I've not put even a toe into the Reaper Mode testing, but it's still very clear to me that some Cleric builds will be pretty much "punished" by the implementation of this desire to reduce the effectiveness of self-healing generally, and disproportionately so in relation to others. FvS will be less affected by it.

I'm not at all keen on the perspective of the old "whu u no heeyalj me you gimp" and "I am not a healer" lovely in-game "dialogue" of years past. Nor the inevitable elitism that will ensue.

Meanwhile, self-healing is a class feature of Clerics, FvS, Paladins, Druids -- to a variable degree. All of these classes will be disproportionately affected against those that do not have it as a primary or strong secondary class feature, given that other classes will not suffer such massive mitigation of a primary ability. There is therefore an intrinsic imbalance here, and "forcing" Cleric players to either go into full Healer Mode or stay out of the dungeon will simply switch playing this class back into the same thankless chore that it used to be, except for those few among us who genuinely enjoy playing a specialist healer (and whose enjoyment of DDO has of course been adversely affected by the current "self-healing for everyone and his pet dog" game).

I've personally fought that battle already, getting personal viability into a "battle cleric" strategy back when the game system made that seriously hard to do -- to be forced back into that extremely gear-dependent grind-heavy trench war for Reaper Mode sounds extraordinarily unattractive.

GeoffWatson
12-16-2016, 03:43 AM
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-12-14-16)?p=5288744

***Bluff and Deception will no longer cause bosses and enemies using ranged attacks or spells to turn around.

Wow, this is gonna make some fights a little tougher. As far as I can remember, turning around was a hallmark of bluff. So now we just get an icon, take the hit, and just deal with it?


That makes Deception items a LOT less useful. From a "must-have" to "maybe, if you have a free slot". Disappointing.

Vish
12-16-2016, 07:14 AM
We can look into making it ratchet down to 0.2 instead of 0.04 at the high end. I don't *think* that would remove the value of having people rewarded for teamwork by healing each other so it's worth looking into.

Sev~

Sev,
I would keep the metrics as is
Impossible should be just that

Except for the divines
Souls and clerics should get a buff here,
Maybe use the .2 as a divine lowest
And positive energy aura should be exempt
That will assure radiant clerics as part of the team

#clericlivesmatter

Thx for the good work on henshins
Vish

Aelonwy
12-16-2016, 08:02 AM
That makes Deception items a LOT less useful. From a "must-have" to "maybe, if you have a free slot". Disappointing.

Basically nerfing named items... its not like it drops on random loot anymore. On the other hand, now I have no desire to acquire that elusive epic shard of the Golden Guile nor run Fall of Truth for Ring of Deceit. Backstabbers gloves lost some value too.

Wongar
12-16-2016, 08:14 AM
Spent some time in Devil Assault to give some more subjective feel feedback.

Overall I really like the spread of difficulty that the 1-10 skulls gives. You can really dial in a hardness that will test your build and play skills to the fullest. You can still solo lower skulls but can really see the need for a group working together as you move up in skulls. Having the broad range also makes the lower lever quest fun and challenging for a capped build. I know that I look forward to running numerous lower level epic quests and being challenged in them while staying at cap.

On reapers:
I'm not sure what to think about the reapers. Looks like there are different kinds - some seem to attack stats, some HP, some equipment? They seem to be completely random with one to three spawning with no apparent trigger. Given the decreased healing and increased damage of mobs, I don't feel like they are necessary to increase challenge.

I think they will be treated like Portal keepers in the Shroud - kill them quickly or fail the quest.

Vanhooger
12-16-2016, 08:17 AM
Dev, Is re-enter in reaper WAI?

FranOhmsford
12-16-2016, 08:58 AM
Having done a bunch of 5-10 skull stuff tonight, I have to say you could remove this penalty completely and it would be fine.




The current design is balanced around Reaper 1-3, with extreme groups venturing into the 4-6 range. Higher than that should be virtually impossible - though players love to prove us wrong.

Sev~


So if you're completing 10 Skull content already {or anything over 6 Skull!} chances are the Devs are not going to make it easier - Harder maybe!

Requiro
12-16-2016, 09:55 AM
We can look into making it ratchet down to 0.2 instead of 0.04 at the high end. I don't *think* that would remove the value of having people rewarded for teamwork by healing each other so it's worth looking into.

Sev~

Please do not. 10 skull should be impossible for now.
If you want adjust something try correct base factor healing depends on classes

Clerics / Favored souls / Bards = Base factor: 0,7
Druids / Artificer (repair only)= Base factor: 0,6
Ranger / Paladin / Monk / Wizard (undead only) = Base factor: 0,5
Rest classes = Base factor: 0,4

For multiclass base factor should be arithmetical.

Do not change formula:
1 skull is Base factor
2 skull is 90% Base factor
3 skull is 80% Base factor

10 skull is 10% Base factor


This way you encourage team work, made 1 skull a little easier, give another reason to play with “healer”, while 10 skull should be still impossible for now.

Wizza
12-16-2016, 10:14 AM
I did a reinstall of Lamannia, again it looked like it was functioning... Until pressing [Play] button it giving the same error entiled: "Where is the game client Executable?" If you click any of the *.exe (from the list) or press Cancel, it results in the following message:

http://uploadpie.com/gbkmj

In the past I've been able to login to Lamannia. But this time its looking very unlikely I'll be able to join you guys today but have fun anyway. Hopefully, the same fault doesn't reoccur in the next official release.

I also had this problem last evening, until Rys was sweet enough to help me with it. Tracked the problem down, and this helped me:



I have also been encountering this issue, but only one PC (an ancient spare PC works fine - both PCs use X64 Win 7).

Each time the launcher asked for the location of the game client executable, it also logged an error message (in Event viewer -> Windows Logs -> Application), with the following details:

Level = Error
Source = SideBySide
Event ID = 33

Activation context generation failed for "C:\Games\The Lord of the Rings Online\lotroclient.exe". Dependent Assembly Microsoft.VC80.CRT,processorAr chitecture="x86",publicKeyToke n="1fc8b3b9a1e18e3b",type="win 32",version="8.0.50727.6195" could not be found. Please use sxstrace.exe for detailed diagnosis.

To solve this, I tracked my problem down to the installed version of the x86 Visual C++ 2005 redist.

Examining my installed programs showed that my installed version of 'Microsoft Visual C++ Redistributable' was 8.0.50727.762 (in control Panel -> Programs and Features; highlight the line and examine the version text at the bottom of the window)

The ancient working PC has version 8.0.61001

Actions:

Uninstall the old version of 'Microsoft Visual C++ Redistributable'

Follow this link for the 61001 version (it shows the IA64 version in the details but allows you to opt for the x86 version when you download)
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?displaylang=en&id=26347

Download the vcredist_x86.exe file and install it. Check your version (as above) and ensure it shows you 8.0.61001

For me at least, the launcher now works properly.

Hope this helps

After installing it, works fine. Hope it helps you!

Alcedes
12-16-2016, 11:14 AM
Sev,
I would keep the metrics as is
Impossible should be just that

Except for the divines
Souls and clerics should get a buff here,
Maybe use the .2 as a divine lowest
And positive energy aura should be exempt
That will assure radiant clerics as part of the team

#clericlivesmatter

Thx for the good work on henshins
Vish

^^This...

That is not a bad idea...I would say expand it to include Paladins and Druids as well though. Especially Paladins.

Paladins are extremely feat starved. MUCH of their strength comes from their ability to heal themselves. They simply do not have the feats to compensate for the loss of self healing.

Wongar
12-16-2016, 11:32 AM
I wanted to add one thought about the SP gems - I think I understand the goal and need to help casters with SP management. However, they kind of give everything an 80's arcade game feel where you are running around picking up the power-ups. While it's nostalgic and all, it's not the feel I personally like in DDO.

Given that they seem to be usable by only one person, they may end up being a source of contention in quests - especially pugs where it may end up everyone sprinting for the power-up whenever they drop.

Grosbeak07
12-16-2016, 11:56 AM
I wanted to add one thought about the SP gems - I think I understand the goal and need to help casters with SP management. However, they kind of give everything an 80's arcade game feel where you are running around picking up the power-ups. While it's nostalgic and all, it's not the feel I personally like in DDO.

Given that they seem to be usable by only one person, they may end up being a source of contention in quests - especially pugs where it may end up everyone sprinting for the power-up whenever they drop.

If people are pugging Reaper mode... it needs more work.

Thrudh
12-16-2016, 12:08 PM
+1

Recommendation: increase self healing enough to be viable at 10 skull. A player can reasonably deal with .2 but .04 is impossible.

10 skull is supposed to be impossible.

Devs, do not make 10 skull any easier at this time. Look at it later 6 months after it's been released.

Mr_Helmet
12-16-2016, 01:25 PM
10 skull is supposed to be impossible.

Devs, do not make 10 skull any easier at this time. Look at it later 6 months after it's been released.

A level 30 quest has already been beaten on 10-skull, therefore how is it impossible?

FranOhmsford
12-16-2016, 01:29 PM
A level 30 quest has already been beaten on 10-skull, therefore how is it impossible?

You see that little word - Supposed?

Did you also manage to miss Severlin posting earlier in this thread specifically...


The current design is balanced around Reaper 1-3, with extreme groups venturing into the 4-6 range. Higher than that should be virtually impossible - though players love to prove us wrong.

Sev~

Virtually impossible for 7 Skulls or higher NOT JUST FOR 10 SKULLS - 7 OR HIGHER!

10 should be outright Impossible for all but the 0.1% in a perfect 6 man Group!

The Fact that they're being completed right now means the Devs need to make them harder!

Severlin
12-16-2016, 02:26 PM
A level 30 quest has already been beaten on 10-skull, therefore how is it impossible?

The quest in question, because the enemies spawn as allies, prevents Reapers from spawning. That makes the quest significantly easier.

Sev~

bracelet
12-16-2016, 02:37 PM
I tried Lords of Dust 1 skull with a strong level 20 toon last night (centered Kensai cleaver). It felt a bit harder than Epic Elite so I think that's actually right about where it should be. I only got the guy at the end down to about 80% health before he killed me but that's fine. I expect a group wouldn't have any trouble.

But Reaper suffers from the same problem that hard and elite suffer from on live. There is no path to becoming better at a given difficulty through preparation and practice when the difficulty variance is wildly out of balance due to champions. A champion in 1 skull could be significantly harder than a normal mob in 5 or maybe even 10 skulls if it has the right combination of DR and damage boosts. It makes the whole graduation of difficulty moot. One can't claim to have mastered any level of difficulty if getting through it was just a lucky draw of what champs were there.

Back at the height of the game's popularity there was a difficulty called epic. It was challenging and often brutal, but with enough practice and preparation, groups could consistently edge out victories. It wasn't automatic and it was an accomplishment to get through them. People were rightly praised for coming up with the right combinations of DPS, and strategy to get through. No matter how "cheesy" people think some of those tactics were, they still involved solving a puzzle through intellect, research and skill. You can't say that about Reaper difficulty when getting through it is going to be by luck of the draw.

So I will say this -champs aside -I loved Reaper. It is a wonderful addition and what should have been done in the first place. Non-champ Jariliths in Lords of Dust 1 skull, reminded me of the first time I set foot in Epics. They hit hard and could easily have killed me if I hadn't been giving it my all. But if I had been unlucky enough to get a champ Jarilith, all but immune to edged weapons (I am centered Kensai, that is the only weapon I can use effectively), I might as well have just recalled. That's the problem champs brought to the game. They are unbalancing. They don't belong in the content at the levels they exist. I would far prefer that difficulty was increased by a predictable margin at each step up; more hit points, higher damage, more anti-player crowd control, harder puzzles etc, than have wildly unpredictable difficulty that invalidates having a graduated difficulty system in the first place.

And unrelated, but I don't intend to post again: mob pathing is seriously broken. Several times, and much to my benefit, mobs just stopped moving and let me beat them down like a training dummy. I got past a three champion encounter due to that bug.

goldengibblet
12-16-2016, 06:43 PM
Sev,


#clericlivesmatter

Thx for the good work on henshins
Vish


AGREED!

Sev, reaper is fine and your team has done some really good work on it. But my conclusion now is to ask you to please put it on hold and use the man-power to finish the Cleric, Druid, FVS, and Battle engineer passes. Those class passes will benefit the player community at large to a much larger degree than reaper will. In fact Reaper will fundamentally change the game play and experience the same way the bravery bonus did a few years ago.

The change will have an outsized effect on the classes that are still waiting for their class passes, and further remove them from the classes already passed as reaper takes hold in the game. That's unfair to those classes and an unwise move that will impact and isolate them further from the grouping you are trying to encourage.

You have been taking your time to make sure Reaper benefits the game when it comes out ensuring it's just right, which is laudable. So perhaps keep running and testing reaper on lamma and turn towards finishing the passes that so many have waited so patiently for for so long.


Because at the end of the day many people have been clamoring for reaper since you mentioned it first last year, But Many many more people have been waiting for the classes passes for a much longer time.

Classes first, reaper next.

Thanks.

Sam-u-r-eye
12-16-2016, 07:24 PM
Because at the end of the day many people have been clamoring for reaper since you mentioned it first last year, But Many many more people have been waiting for the classes passes for a much longer time.


Where's your data?

I think that the positive effect of reaper is much higher than class passes.

goldengibblet
12-16-2016, 08:00 PM
Where's your data?

I think that the positive effect of reaper is much higher than class passes.


Where is your 'data'?

"I think" is hardly data.

We have been waiting more than twice as long for the class passes than we have for Reaper. Also instead of trying to take a cheap shot how about you address my actual post content. For instance the fact that reaper is suppose to encourage grouping and healing, but the main healing classes are still waiting on class passes and perform well below the baseline now.

Seriously, that kind of snide comment you make sounds like a spoiled kid is whining because he might have to wait for his 'treat' (in this case reaper) so that the other players can get the class passes they have been waiting 4 years for.

Tlorrd
12-16-2016, 08:41 PM
AGREED!

Sev, reaper is fine and your team has done some really good work on it. But my conclusion now is to ask you to please put it on hold and use the man-power to finish the Cleric, Druid, FVS, and Battle engineer passes. Those class passes will benefit the player community at large to a much larger degree than reaper will. In fact Reaper will fundamentally change the game play and experience the same way the bravery bonus did a few years ago. .

If this is the case ... then I'd rather have them come out with reaper and then make the proper class adjustments to those classes you mentioned above. If they make those class passes now and then reaper comes out, my bet is that the class passes they have done will be insufficient to keep up with how the game is changing. Thus I think your argument is valid except that your conclusion is opposite of the conclusion I would make.

Qhualor
12-16-2016, 09:08 PM
AGREED!

Sev, reaper is fine and your team has done some really good work on it. But my conclusion now is to ask you to please put it on hold and use the man-power to finish the Cleric, Druid, FVS, and Battle engineer passes. Those class passes will benefit the player community at large to a much larger degree than reaper will. In fact Reaper will fundamentally change the game play and experience the same way the bravery bonus did a few years ago.

The change will have an outsized effect on the classes that are still waiting for their class passes, and further remove them from the classes already passed as reaper takes hold in the game. That's unfair to those classes and an unwise move that will impact and isolate them further from the grouping you are trying to encourage.

You have been taking your time to make sure Reaper benefits the game when it comes out ensuring it's just right, which is laudable. So perhaps keep running and testing reaper on lamma and turn towards finishing the passes that so many have waited so patiently for for so long.


Because at the end of the day many people have been clamoring for reaper since you mentioned it first last year, But Many many more people have been waiting for the classes passes for a much longer time.

Classes first, reaper next.

Thanks.

you make a pretty solid case that really should be taken under serious consideration by the devs. putting aside my personal feelings of Reaper, I wonder if future class improvements (the devs said there probably wont be anymore actual class passes anymore) will have any impact in the decision making process to balance them against Reaper difficulties. its expected and nothing wrong with it for players to try and build their characters with the intention of playing Reaper, but the balance of classes shouldn't be based on Reaper. it does make sense to finish the classes first before introducing a brand new difficulty setting. it makes sense to balance that setting against all classes, not the other way around. this is something I have been clamoring about for a long time and my broken record is worn out now. as it is right now, the devs are asking for feedback based on player experiences playing Reaper with current characters where some have had their pass or improvements, while the rest have seen very little or none. my crystal ball has shown me the future, so I'll just continue sitting back and shaking my head and watch as more dev time and resources aren't put to better use.

Ebondevil
12-16-2016, 09:22 PM
We are still looking for qualitative rather than quantitative testing. That said, here is what we are looking for.

~ Could you complete Reaper dungeons?
~ What level of Skulls could you play and still find success?
~ What strategies did you use?
~ Did the mana gems that enemies can drop help casters deal with increased mana usage higher difficulty provides?
~ Did you encounter all the different types of Reapers? How did you deal with them?

The current design is balanced around Reaper 1-3, with extreme groups venturing into the 4-6 range. Higher than that should be virtually impossible - though players love to prove us wrong.

Sev~

I'd recently completed Trial by Fire (http://ddowiki.com/page/Trial_by_Fire) on Heroic Elite on live with my main character (Currently Warlock Life), so figured I'd compare with reaper on Lammania

First attempt: 10 Skulls Solo: Murderized by the first two trolls whom I could barely hurt, both of whom were champions hitting for 100-250 damage a hit, Ouchy.

Second Attempt: 1 Skull Solo: Felt a bit harder than Heroic Elite, but I was able to complete it, the reapers didn't really seem to be much of a threat, but then I ran up to them and blasted them with Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast as soon as I saw them, even 2 at once wasn't much trouble as a result.

Third attempt: 5 Skull Solo: The general mobs felt like a more significant challenge, the Reapers Murderized me with massive damage since they could survive a few Bursts/Blasts.

Final Attempt: 3 Skull Solo:
Was trying to be more careful here (Spoiler: I failed), got through a good portion of the quest, and my intention was to try and pick off a lone reaper with Eldritch Blast without attracting adds, unfortunately I got adds, lots of adds, and they resulted in me not being able to hit the Reaper, giving it the opportunity to Murderized me from behind the pack.

-----------------------

Probably just me, but I'd like to see a version of the Mana Gems drop in non reaper quests, I didn't need them on my Warlock, but they would have been very pleasant on other characters, but then I'm always running out of Spellpoints when playing my casters, which results in me not using most of the spells and not enjoying them as much as a result.

I encountered Famine, Fear, Carnage and Plague, not sure if that's all of them. I generally tried to kill them as fast as possible with Eldritch Burst/Spirit Blast and wasn't really paying much attention to them other than that. I did notice the one on 3 Skull was dealing significant ranged damage (~150 bane?) per hit. Perhaps the same type killed me on 5 skull not sure if it was ranged or not as I was up in it's face at the time and the killing blow was ~350 Bane? damage.

Mindos
12-16-2016, 10:05 PM
Hi

Hi and welcome to the forums.

edrein
12-16-2016, 11:43 PM
you make a pretty solid case that really should be taken under serious consideration by the devs. putting aside my personal feelings of Reaper, I wonder if future class improvements (the devs said there probably wont be anymore actual class passes anymore) will have any impact in the decision making process to balance them against Reaper difficulties. its expected and nothing wrong with it for players to try and build their characters with the intention of playing Reaper, but the balance of classes shouldn't be based on Reaper. it does make sense to finish the classes first before introducing a brand new difficulty setting. it makes sense to balance that setting against all classes, not the other way around. this is something I have been clamoring about for a long time and my broken record is worn out now. as it is right now, the devs are asking for feedback based on player experiences playing Reaper with current characters where some have had their pass or improvements, while the rest have seen very little or none. my crystal ball has shown me the future, so I'll just continue sitting back and shaking my head and watch as more dev time and resources aren't put to better use.

The problem is it feels a lot like the devs realize properly 'passing' each class first is going to take quite a bit of manpower, and they'd rather shirk off fixing the classes as we're nearly 3 years into the whole enhancement pass deal and they realize there is still a great amount of ground that has to be covered. Why spend an entire quarter for developing and implementing another full fledged enhancement pass for a 10 year old game? Both the Devs and the powers that be from Warner Brothers don't see that as marketable or even remotely profitable. Despite players screaming otherwise, despite the multitude of people waiting to see their favorite class get revamped, or just to see build diversity once more. And to an extent I can understand and agree with them, in the short term that's a terrible business plan for a 10 year old game. In the long term it would certainly bring back players and renew the overall game environment. But let's face it; as many people have vocally spoken for Reaper and how it's renewed interest it's clear that the immediate gratification and what they can quickly pump out mechanically is going to win in the end.

Unless we all start screaming about completing the Enhancement Pass once and for all (which I assure you won't happen, most people have stopped complaining and realize that the devs ignore this kind of player feedback, especially when you consider the switch from individual passes to the recent "small updates per update" plan that resulted in the 'monk pass'.) there's no way that we're going to see Reaper put on hold once more. It's not a thing that would be shelved for a few weeks or months, it would take a solid quarter or two to finish the enhancement pass and to polish it. Even if they hit the premium classes missing three trees; they still need to rebalance spells across the board so they scale into epics, go back and tweak the classes they already got to fit this new formula, and generally clean everything up. Which may just completely end with no class diversity anymore.

Natashaelle
12-17-2016, 12:41 AM
it would take a solid quarter or two to finish the enhancement pass and to polish it

You completely underestimate the amount of work and player/dev interaction that's needed for even a single class pass.

Thrudh
12-17-2016, 12:47 AM
A level 30 quest has already been beaten on 10-skull, therefore how is it impossible?

Then the last thing they need to do it make it easier. They should make it harder.

Mr_Helmet
12-17-2016, 01:14 AM
Then the last thing they need to do it make it easier. They should make it harder.

With your infinite wisdom and experience in 10-skull, please explain HOW they should make this harder.

Powerhungry
12-17-2016, 01:17 AM
But Reaper suffers from the same problem that hard and elite suffer from on live. There is no path to becoming better at a given difficulty through preparation and practice when the difficulty variance is wildly out of balance due to champions. A champion in 1 skull could be significantly harder than a normal mob in 5 or maybe even 10 skulls if it has the right combination of DR and damage boosts. It makes the whole graduation of difficulty moot. One can't claim to have mastered any level of difficulty if getting through it was just a lucky draw of what champs were there.

Back at the height of the game's popularity there was a difficulty called epic. It was challenging and often brutal, but with enough practice and preparation, groups could consistently edge out victories. It wasn't automatic and it was an accomplishment to get through them. People were rightly praised for coming up with the right combinations of DPS, and strategy to get through. No matter how "cheesy" people think some of those tactics were, they still involved solving a puzzle through intellect, research and skill. You can't say that about Reaper difficulty when getting through it is going to be by luck of the draw.

So I will say this -champs aside -I loved Reaper. It is a wonderful addition and what should have been done in the first place. Non-champ Jariliths in Lords of Dust 1 skull, reminded me of the first time I set foot in Epics. They hit hard and could easily have killed me if I hadn't been giving it my all. But if I had been unlucky enough to get a champ Jarilith, all but immune to edged weapons (I am centered Kensai, that is the only weapon I can use effectively), I might as well have just recalled. That's the problem champs brought to the game. They are unbalancing. They don't belong in the content at the levels they exist. I would far prefer that difficulty was increased by a predictable margin at each step up; more hit points, higher damage, more anti-player crowd control, harder puzzles etc, than have wildly unpredictable difficulty that invalidates having a graduated difficulty system in the first place.
.
This is exactly the argument I have used against champions in the past. They elevate the CR of a quest by an unknown variable. When you enter a CR 'X' quest that has been in the game for years as that CR 'X' quest you should know what an appropriate power level/party mix is needed. Champs ruin that. Ran HE Overgrowth at level with an experienced group. Several of the plants were champs, we had little difficulty. Since we were exp farming, we ran it again on HE. This time the first room had 2 champ wisps. We wiped in the first room. Bludgeoning damage from chain lightning - evasion doesn't work against that. Reaper mode is where Champions belong (in all their original release glory), not in heroics at all and (maybe) in EE.

edrein
12-17-2016, 03:59 AM
You completely underestimate the amount of work and player/dev interaction that's needed for even a single class pass.

As someone with some experience in game design and system coding, I'm giving an example of what a dedicated group could manage on a full scrum. I don't know the actual extent of staff at turbine nor do I or even you truly know the extent of trying to backtrack and rework old code. I agree that 1-2 quarters is an understatement to the extent it might take to complete the full Enhancement Pass in one go. But my point remains, they understand the extent of effort it would take and have thusly chosen not to do such. Why bother when you can get the Reaper mode out and silence the vocal majority for a couple months, while they maybe drop 1-2 class enhancements in that time frame.

My point was to show the fact that it would take dedication and time to pump out the final pass, and that's something neither the devs nor Warner Bros wants to do as they see it as both costly and unable to create instant income generation through subs if we're left with a content draught while everything is fixed in one go. I don't blame them for that, but sitting there and defending them like you've done is part of the problem. The Enhancement Pass is better completed before Reaper so that Reaper is designed for all classes instead of the handful we've gotten revamped. The matter of self healing as discussed in this thread alone proves that.

Wizza
12-17-2016, 06:14 AM
Then the last thing they need to do it make it easier. They should make it harder.

Have you ever even tried it? Are you even interested in running Reaper?


While forum theory-crafting is nice, it's not as valuable as actually checking things out yourself.

FranOhmsford
12-17-2016, 07:03 AM
Have you ever even tried it? Are you even interested in running Reaper?

Seriously?

You have Severlin's Post in this thread stating outright that 7 Skulls and above should be virtually impossible right now!

The fact that it clearly isn't virtually impossible or even close as people have already completed 10 Skulls should tell you that 7 Skulls and above is going to get tougher - MUCH Tougher!

The Devs are specifically asking people to beat what they've put up on Lamannia so they can make it tougher!


And still you just want to attack Players who don't want to run it anyway!
We're not the ones the Devs are trying to please here and frankly neither are you if you think this is hard enough! The Devs are thinking...."OK so Fran will stick to Elite, Thrudh is fine with Reaper 1, Wizza likes Reaper 5 but Sam-ur-Eye is already completing Reaper 10 so we need to make Reaper 6-10 tougher!

Qhualor
12-17-2016, 07:18 AM
The problem is it feels a lot like the devs realize properly 'passing' each class first is going to take quite a bit of manpower, and they'd rather shirk off fixing the classes as we're nearly 3 years into the whole enhancement pass deal and they realize there is still a great amount of ground that has to be covered. Why spend an entire quarter for developing and implementing another full fledged enhancement pass for a 10 year old game? Both the Devs and the powers that be from Warner Brothers don't see that as marketable or even remotely profitable. Despite players screaming otherwise, despite the multitude of people waiting to see their favorite class get revamped, or just to see build diversity once more. And to an extent I can understand and agree with them, in the short term that's a terrible business plan for a 10 year old game. In the long term it would certainly bring back players and renew the overall game environment. But let's face it; as many people have vocally spoken for Reaper and how it's renewed interest it's clear that the immediate gratification and what they can quickly pump out mechanically is going to win in the end.

Unless we all start screaming about completing the Enhancement Pass once and for all (which I assure you won't happen, most people have stopped complaining and realize that the devs ignore this kind of player feedback, especially when you consider the switch from individual passes to the recent "small updates per update" plan that resulted in the 'monk pass'.) there's no way that we're going to see Reaper put on hold once more. It's not a thing that would be shelved for a few weeks or months, it would take a solid quarter or two to finish the enhancement pass and to polish it. Even if they hit the premium classes missing three trees; they still need to rebalance spells across the board so they scale into epics, go back and tweak the classes they already got to fit this new formula, and generally clean everything up. Which may just completely end with no class diversity anymore.

the devs can do 1 class per update, which usually averages out to every 3-4 months. they have done this before, with the exception of monk and the trickiness of handwraps. than they can make some fixes with the typical 1-3 patches because there are always bugs and certain changes aren't realized to be underwhelming or overpowering. the biggest problems are the resources involved and the schedule to crank out other things they have planned out with some projects large like Cannith crafting that can consume a lot of time. some things take longer than realized because of problems or something else is pushed in front of it they feel is more important. I still believe that class polishes/updates should have been before developing a brand new difficulty setting and think it would have been much easier to design it around the classes.

Wizza
12-17-2016, 07:38 AM
Seriously?

You have Severlin's Post in this thread stating outright that 7 Skulls and above should be virtually impossible right now!

The fact that it clearly isn't virtually impossible or even close as people have already completed 10 Skulls should tell you that 7 Skulls and above is going to get tougher - MUCH Tougher!

The Devs are specifically asking people to beat what they've put up on Lamannia so they can make it tougher!


And still you just want to attack Players who don't want to run it anyway!
We're not the ones the Devs are trying to please here and frankly neither are you if you think this is hard enough! The Devs are thinking...."OK so Fran will stick to Elite, Thrudh is fine with Reaper 1, Wizza likes Reaper 5 but Sam-ur-Eye is already completing Reaper 10 so we need to make Reaper 6-10 tougher!

Severlin also said that the easier quests are of course completable. He also said he expected players to complete them.

I'm saying you have absolutely no idea how hard/easy/fast and how much preparation went before the quest because you (as in you, Thrudh, and whoever speaks without having ever stepped into a R10 quest or even R1) have absolutely no idea how tough they are.

FranOhmsford
12-17-2016, 08:00 AM
Severlin also said that the easier quests are of course completable. He also said he expected players to complete them.

He actually said he expected players to prove

I'm saying you have absolutely no idea how hard/easy/fast and how much preparation went before the quest because you (as in you, Thrudh, and whoever speaks without having ever stepped into a R10 quest or even R1) have absolutely no idea how tough they are.[/QUOTE]

His actual words were...


though players love to prove us wrong.

Sev~

I took this as to mean that the Devs were waiting for players to prove Reaper 7-10 were doable and then the Devs would go back and buff those difficulties some more before handing them back to the players again.


And sorry but you don't have to run a quest or a difficulty to know that when the Producer states that certain difficulties {the top 4!} should be virtually incompletable and people are already completing the absolute top difficulty well it's too easy!

Wizza
12-17-2016, 08:07 AM
And sorry but you don't have to run a quest or a difficulty to know that when the Producer states that certain difficulties {the top 4!} should be virtually incompletable and people are already completing the absolute top difficulty well it's too easy!

And you are wrong. You have to run them, to understand how hard or easy they are. They failed R8 HH, so R8 is fine but R10 needs to be harder? You can't understand, because you have not run either and have no idea of what's going on.

zehnvhex
12-17-2016, 10:38 AM
And you are wrong. You have to run them, to understand how hard or easy they are. They failed R8 HH, so R8 is fine but R10 needs to be harder? You can't understand, because you have not run either and have no idea of what's going on.

He also said the R10 that was beaten was due to a bug with the reaper mobs not spawning which is like, 80% of the difficulty of these quests.

zehnvhex
12-17-2016, 10:42 AM
I also wanted to ask the devs if they are still intending to work on the "one thing" list we all did a few months ago or if that's now on the bottom of some forgotten pile. The fact that you guys came out and improved the game instead of just piling more stuff on top of a crumbling tower was -amazing-.

I know some stuff might never be fixed (LADDER GLITCH 9 YEARS AND COUNTING NOW BOYS) but the thought that this dev team actually cared enough about the game to make it better instead of just more stuff was amazing.

I'm still seeing string table errors all over the place, spelling errors, tons of glitches. Over on the Reddit community we have new people posting constantly about coming back to the game, our guild has tons of new people joining up daily and it'd be nice to not have to warn them about "Oh, yeah, sometimes the Threnal quest just bugs out and you have to start over" or "Sometimes you have to delete the keybinding file and rebuild it. Nobody knows why but if your 'interact' hotkeys stop working, hope you made a backup!"

Sam-u-r-eye
12-17-2016, 04:57 PM
"I think" is hardly data.

I'm glad we agree. You don't know the amount of people who want class passes vs reaper.
Both are needed, obviously, for the game to have a future. No one will be around to play the class passes if the game is so easy that they are boring.
I know about 30+ for whom this is true, and there are definitely more.



Seriously, that kind of snide comment you make sounds like a spoiled kid is whining because he might have to wait for his 'treat' (in this case reaper) so that the other players can get the class passes they have been waiting 4 years for.

In my experience snide kids make insults and adults don't but I've met a few who've proven me wrong.

goldengibblet
12-17-2016, 04:58 PM
If this is the case ... then I'd rather have them come out with reaper and then make the proper class adjustments to those classes you mentioned above. If they make those class passes now and then reaper comes out, my bet is that the class passes they have done will be insufficient to keep up with how the game is changing. Thus I think your argument is valid except that your conclusion is opposite of the conclusion I would make.

Good points, I'm not sure if I agree with your conclusion either but I can see that your looking at the big picture that worries me as well. How funny is it that the classes waiting for passes would be the healing ones right when they elite/hard core gamers have finally been able to successfully lobby a new difficulty? Life's hilarious, you can't write this stuff.

Thanks for the post.

Sam-u-r-eye
12-17-2016, 05:01 PM
which is like, 80% of the difficulty of these quests.

Already difficult encounters are exaggerated to become even more difficult encounters.
10 skull shroud is impossible. An orthon hits a tank for 8k through 300 PRR.
TOEE is extremely difficult even on 6-skull because alert spawns reapers (? I think). I know all the top guilds can do it ATM, so maybe reaper should be made harder.

goldengibblet
12-17-2016, 05:04 PM
The problem is it feels a lot like the devs realize properly 'passing' each class first is going to take quite a bit of manpower, and they'd rather shirk off fixing the classes as we're nearly 3 years into the whole enhancement pass deal and they realize there is still a great amount of ground that has to be covered. Why spend an entire quarter for developing and implementing another full fledged enhancement pass for a 10 year old game? Both the Devs and the powers that be from Warner Brothers don't see that as marketable or even remotely profitable. Despite players screaming otherwise, despite the multitude of people waiting to see their favorite class get revamped, or just to see build diversity once more. And to an extent I can understand and agree with them, in the short term that's a terrible business plan for a 10 year old game. In the long term it would certainly bring back players and renew the overall game environment. But let's face it; as many people have vocally spoken for Reaper and how it's renewed interest it's clear that the immediate gratification and what they can quickly pump out mechanically is going to win in the end.

Unless we all start screaming about completing the Enhancement Pass once and for all (which I assure you won't happen, most people have stopped complaining and realize that the devs ignore this kind of player feedback, especially when you consider the switch from individual passes to the recent "small updates per update" plan that resulted in the 'monk pass'.) there's no way that we're going to see Reaper put on hold once more. It's not a thing that would be shelved for a few weeks or months, it would take a solid quarter or two to finish the enhancement pass and to polish it. Even if they hit the premium classes missing three trees; they still need to rebalance spells across the board so they scale into epics, go back and tweak the classes they already got to fit this new formula, and generally clean everything up. Which may just completely end with no class diversity anymore.



Thanks Interesting post, very cool.

I'd have to disagree with several points, 1) the devs are not incompetent or trying to shirk work 2) there is a vocal minority of player asking for reaper 3) there is a larger base waiting to be energized by a class pass 4) almost every class pass has spiked log-ins and new lives 5) finally, sure they can put Reaper on hold, they have numerous times and are clearly taking their time with it.

Just so thoughts.

Sam-u-r-eye
12-17-2016, 05:05 PM
The Enhancement Pass is better completed before Reaper so that Reaper is designed for all classes instead of the handful we've gotten revamped. The matter of self healing as discussed in this thread alone proves that.

I disagree.

Druids provide powerful CC and healing, both of which aren't required in the current meta.
They are powerful in Reaper. Very powerful.

The divines will be given a big role if they want it.

Who's left then to give +1 crit / multi and some melee power?

Favored souls are not even in a bad place right now. We have several in guild who are competitive with wizards.

The only class who seems to be left completely in the dust (IMO) is artificers, but they are a tough pony---like bards---and probably need a new destiny as well.

The finalization of the monk pass is huge. I think the classes are largely in balance with the exception of artificer.

Sam-u-r-eye
12-17-2016, 05:07 PM
A lot of these negative comments about the existence of reaper seem to be summed up as...

"It isn't something I will use. Give me something I will use."

Well not every update is about you.
I know plenty of people who would MUCH rather have class passes than lvl 30, and I know many people who wanted reaper before lvl 30.
It goes all ways.
Try it out next time its on Lamma!
Don't knock it till you try it.

goldengibblet
12-17-2016, 05:11 PM
~ sam's usual baiting and distraction content~


Whatever.

I'm embarrassed to admit that I didn't know your rep before I engaged with you. Luckily some good folks PM'd me the 411 on you and your under-bridge dwelling hobby so consider yourself and your nonsense squelched.

Do yourself a favor and take a few minutes to look at the other posters I responded to on this thread, they are clever people with some genuine insight that isn't transparently attention seeking and screaming for the new toy they want.

Ciao.

Rys
12-17-2016, 05:27 PM
4) almost every class pass has spiked log-ins and new lives

Probably the same number of people logging off and on during the TR process while playing the inventory tetris with alts.

Plus Turbine doesn't love you, that's why they give reaper before class passes.

goldengibblet
12-17-2016, 06:19 PM
Plus Turbine doesn't love you, that's why they give reaper before class passes.


https://i.imgflip.com/1g5zsr.jpg

Sam-u-r-eye
12-17-2016, 06:36 PM
Whatever.

I'm embarrassed to admit that I didn't know your rep before I engaged with you. Luckily some good folks PM'd me the 411 on you and your under-bridge dwelling hobby so consider yourself and your nonsense squelched.

Do yourself a favor and take a few minutes to look at the other posters I responded to on this thread, they are clever people with some genuine insight that isn't transparently attention seeking and screaming for the new toy they want.

Ciao.

Man you are full of insults.
All while you assume I'm "trolling."
I don't troll, ever.
I might joke once in a while and its always in friendly humor.
If you squelch me it won't be my problem.
Points stand on their own, but thanks for accusing me of being an immature 5-year old troll.
You did not give me the benefit of the doubt in a sincere fashion.
I'm not glad you bothered to spew negative garbage in this thread for a while.

That's on you dude, not me.

LavidDynch
12-17-2016, 11:52 PM
In my experience snide kids make insults and adults don't but I've met a few who've proven me wrong.

Did you miss the US Presidential election? :p

Natashaelle
12-18-2016, 04:18 AM
As someone with some experience in game design and system coding, I'm giving an example of what a dedicated group could manage on a full scrum. I don't know the actual extent of staff at turbine nor do I or even you truly know the extent of trying to backtrack and rework old code. I agree that 1-2 quarters is an understatement to the extent it might take to complete the full Enhancement Pass in one go. But my point remains, they understand the extent of effort it would take and have thusly chosen not to do such. Why bother when you can get the Reaper mode out and silence the vocal majority for a couple months, while they maybe drop 1-2 class enhancements in that time frame.

My point was to show the fact that it would take dedication and time to pump out the final pass, and that's something neither the devs nor Warner Bros wants to do as they see it as both costly and unable to create instant income generation through subs if we're left with a content draught while everything is fixed in one go. I don't blame them for that, but sitting there and defending them like you've done is part of the problem. The Enhancement Pass is better completed before Reaper so that Reaper is designed for all classes instead of the handful we've gotten revamped. The matter of self healing as discussed in this thread alone proves that.

When I say that you are completely underestimating the effort and the TIME needed, I mean especially the need for a properly focused and well-balanced interaction with the player base for each of the character classes considered both individually and relative to the others.

I'm not "sitting here and defending them", I'm pointing out that the proposal that you've made is, in practice, unworkable.

edrein
12-18-2016, 10:56 AM
When I say that you are completely underestimating the effort and the TIME needed, I mean especially the need for a properly focused and well-balanced interaction with the player base for each of the character classes considered both individually and relative to the others.

I'm not "sitting here and defending them", I'm pointing out that the proposal that you've made is, in practice, unworkable.

The entire point of my 'proposal' was to point out the obvious logic between finishing the Enhancement Passes or completing Reaper here and now. It's obvious which one they will chose from a business stand point; whether that is not correct in the long haul is yet to be seen. Although the immediate effects are the questions being brought up in this thread about self healing. I would love for them to completely finish the Pass first, but they aren't going to take the time to do such and if they did it wouldn't be a "well-balanced interaction" it would most likely be how the last few passes have felt as a whole, a few minor changes based on player feedback but whatever was pushed on Lamania is what's going to make it to live.

Talon_Moonshadow
12-18-2016, 03:57 PM
I've not put even a toe into the Reaper Mode testing, but it's still very clear to me that some Cleric builds will be pretty much "punished" by the implementation of this desire to reduce the effectiveness of self-healing generally, and disproportionately so in relation to others. FvS will be less affected by it.

I'm not at all keen on the perspective of the old "whu u no heeyalj me you gimp" and "I am not a healer" lovely in-game "dialogue" of years past. Nor the inevitable elitism that will ensue.

Meanwhile, self-healing is a class feature of Clerics, FvS, Paladins, Druids -- to a variable degree. All of these classes will be disproportionately affected against those that do not have it as a primary or strong secondary class feature, given that other classes will not suffer such massive mitigation of a primary ability. There is therefore an intrinsic imbalance here, and "forcing" Cleric players to either go into full Healer Mode or stay out of the dungeon will simply switch playing this class back into the same thankless chore that it used to be, except for those few among us who genuinely enjoy playing a specialist healer (and whose enjoyment of DDO has of course been adversely affected by the current "self-healing for everyone and his pet dog" game).

I've personally fought that battle already, getting personal viability into a "battle cleric" strategy back when the game system made that seriously hard to do -- to be forced back into that extremely gear-dependent grind-heavy trench war for Reaper Mode sounds extraordinarily unattractive.


I am on the fence with this one.

While I dislike the "I'm a battle cleric, heal yourself" crowd. I also dislike the needy "Heal me!" crowd as well.

The groups I like help each other to the best of their abilities.
I am hoping successful Reaperers will work together.
But I fear I will see just further divide among the community.

Pretty sure actually, that every Reaper LFM will have some "serve me" requirement....

Talon_Moonshadow
12-18-2016, 03:59 PM
I wanted to add one thought about the SP gems - I think I understand the goal and need to help casters with SP management. However, they kind of give everything an 80's arcade game feel where you are running around picking up the power-ups. While it's nostalgic and all, it's not the feel I personally like in DDO.

Given that they seem to be usable by only one person, they may end up being a source of contention in quests - especially pugs where it may end up everyone sprinting for the power-up whenever they drop.



They should be breakables IMO. ;)

Talon_Moonshadow
12-18-2016, 03:59 PM
If people are pugging Reaper mode... it needs more work.



...and so it begins.... :(

Talon_Moonshadow
12-18-2016, 04:03 PM
With your infinite wisdom and experience in 10-skull, please explain HOW they should make this harder.

You miss the point.

Talon_Moonshadow
12-18-2016, 04:06 PM
Have you ever even tried it? Are you even interested in running Reaper?


I fully expect to see him run Reapers.

Talon_Moonshadow
12-18-2016, 04:13 PM
And you are wrong. You have to run them, to understand how hard or easy they are. They failed R8 HH, so R8 is fine but R10 needs to be harder? You can't understand, because you have not run either and have no idea of what's going on.

lol

No you don't!

When someone designs a difficulty to challenge those people who say the game is too easy...
and clearly states the goal is to make the upper (half I believe they sorta said( difficulties not completable by current characters...

it is very clear that if the highest difficulty is getting completed, then it needs to be more difficult.


It completely amazes me (well.. no, no it doesn't... cause I already knew the attitude) that people who claim to want a difficulty and challenge worthy of their character's power, that all I see it complaints about how difficult Reaper is.

This is actually why I did not want Reaper. It hasn't even come out yet, and it has already failed to do what it was meant to do, and has already further divided the community.

Sadly, I really want a challenge.
But I will probably rarely get to run it, because I refuse to run with.... well.. NM.


(edit: but of course I will step in solo and check it out...)

Wizza
12-18-2016, 04:20 PM
I fully expect to see him run Reapers.

And I fully expect him to never step foot into R8-R10. And expect him to reply, not someone else. But he won't, as he already dodged the question once made by Mr_Helmet in this same thread.


lol

No you don't!

When someone designs a difficulty to challenge those people who say the game is too easy...
and clearly states the goal is to make the upper (half I believe they sorta said( difficulties not completable by current characters...

it is very clear that if the highest difficulty is getting completed, then it needs to be more difficult.


It completely amazes me (well.. no, no it doesn't... cause I already knew the attitude) that people who claim to want a difficulty and challenge worthy of their character's power, that all I see it complaints about how difficult Reaper is.

This is actually why I did not want Reaper. It hasn't even come out yet, and it has already failed to do what it was meant to do, and has already further divided the community.

Sadly, I really want a challenge.
But I will probably rarely get to run it, because I refuse to run with.... well.. NM.

Please, enlighten us how you can have an opinion on something that you have not even tried. Or better, you can have one, it is just going to be wrong. This because, I could have completed Kobold Assault on R10 on my lv30 toon and you would still be wrong. Sam reported they failed HH R8, which implies that it's hard. R8, not even 10.

It hasn't divided the community. There is who tried it, and says they mostly likeld it and could be improved, and there is who didn't, and try to give (wrong) feedback. I'll send you back to the OP, where Cordovan invites people to try things before speaking.

FranOhmsford
12-18-2016, 06:25 PM
This because, I could have completed Kobold Assault on R10 on my lv30 toon and you would still be wrong.

Hang on a minute....Didn't I see the Devs state that Reaper had Max Lvl to enter so as to avoid this sort of overlevelling of Reaper?


And I'm pretty sure no-one's going to be posting completions of Kobold Assault Reaper 10 at Lvl 30 {or was, they might do now I've said this :)}.

Sam-u-r-eye
12-18-2016, 08:04 PM
Hang on a minute....Didn't I see the Devs state that Reaper had Max Lvl to enter so as to avoid this sort of overlevelling of Reaper?

Right?

I saw this as well.

I think maybe the XP and rewards were supposed to be disabled for over leveling stuff?

If you can find it and/or remember fran correct me but I thought it was quest level +2 like remnants.

Sam-u-r-eye
12-18-2016, 08:04 PM
Hang on a minute....Didn't I see the Devs state that Reaper had Max Lvl to enter so as to avoid this sort of overlevelling of Reaper?


Right?

I saw this as well.

I think maybe the XP and rewards were supposed to be disabled for over leveling stuff?

If you can find it and/or remember fran correct me but I thought it was quest level +2 like remnants.

Rys
12-19-2016, 12:11 AM
Hang on a minute....Didn't I see the Devs state that Reaper had Max Lvl to enter so as to avoid this sort of overlevelling of Reaper?


And I'm pretty sure no-one's going to be posting completions of Kobold Assault Reaper 10 at Lvl 30 {or was, they might do now I've said this :)}.

I hope not. I was excited to try Abbot, ToD, VoD. LoB and a few other lower level quests that I was hoping would be brought on par with legendary difficulty with reaper.

moo_cow
12-19-2016, 12:54 AM
Right?

I saw this as well.

I think maybe the XP and rewards were supposed to be disabled for over leveling stuff?

If you can find it and/or remember fran correct me but I thought it was quest level +2 like remnants.

Quest level +2? That is completely awful. So we can only run a few reaper quests at cap?

I was hoping this wasn't the case. That basically takes away any joy that I would have gotten from reaper.

Natashaelle
12-19-2016, 01:48 AM
it would most likely be how the last few passes have felt as a whole, a few minor changes based on player feedback but whatever was pushed on Lamania is what's going to make it to live.

Actually, more internally in the Players Councils, the to-and-fro between the players and devs is very significant -- there have OTOH been one or two occasions where the devs have sought a broader initial interaction with the general playerbase via the public forums rather than turning to the PC first.

I've seen more than one occasion where unexpected reactions and input from Lammania forums, or even just one extremely good idea from one player on the public forum, have led to significantly deep design changes in a proposed class pass.

There really are just too many variables and differences and necessities to just trivialise this whole process, bearing in mind that some class passes will be easier, whilst others might - even conceptually - be intrinsically difficult ; and it's the more difficult ones that tend to require more feedback from Lammania forums than the "easier".

Natashaelle
12-19-2016, 01:56 AM
While I dislike the "I'm a battle cleric, heal yourself" crowd.

yeah well, the operative word in "battle cleric" is "cleric", and players who refuse outright to provide healing when it's needed just aren't playing it properly.

You missed my deeper point though, which is that self-healing is a primary class ability for *all* clerics, not just the "I am not a healer" ones. Weakening self-healing generally therefore weakens Clerics disproportionately compared to the other classes that seem to suffer no penalties to healing provided to them by those very same clerics. I was just pointing out specifically that players of "battle clerics" will be forced into an extensive Healer rôle that is contrary to the fundamental character design of their toons. (I do understand from people's comments BTW that this will be less true towards 1-skull Reaper, more true incrementally 2 Skulls up -- hence also my comments about the return of the "elitists" which much of this thread does seem to illustrate to some extent ; I'm not of course commenting on Reaper generally, just on one particular design aspect of it)

Wizza
12-19-2016, 03:58 AM
Hang on a minute....Didn't I see the Devs state that Reaper had Max Lvl to enter so as to avoid this sort of overlevelling of Reaper?


And I'm pretty sure no-one's going to be posting completions of Kobold Assault Reaper 10 at Lvl 30 {or was, they might do now I've said this :)}.

I know, but it was never implemented on Lamannia and I hope Devs have reconsidered this.

Eth
12-19-2016, 04:14 AM
Why do that? There are plenty of people who can give them tons of feedback without ever running the content.

lol
+1

Claver
12-19-2016, 06:17 AM
Hang on a minute....Didn't I see the Devs state that Reaper had Max Lvl to enter so as to avoid this sort of overlevelling of Reaper?

I thought that was the case as well. I'd suggest a level cap on anything 5 stars or greater. Allow a wide range of character levels (and character power levels) to experiment with Reaper at the 1 star to 4 star range. Keep character level cap for Reaper stars 5 to 10 at the level of the quest to preserve the challenge for the highest levels of achievement.

I do believe Reaper needs to have respectable XP rewards to make it worth our time; however, running reaper should not be mandatory and for that reason the XP should be less than bravery bonus - perhaps just that standard xp of elite with no first time bravery bonus. I would suggest optional XP for reaper be greatly boosted (say 400%) as well as the bonus for Mischief, Tamper, observance, and aggression. Putting more XP focus on the optionals will give the quests a different feel and offset play styles that take the path of least resistance to more quickly finish the quests while skipping named encounters that might otherwise be extra work on Reaper

FranOhmsford
12-19-2016, 08:10 AM
Quest level +2? That is completely awful. So we can only run a few reaper quests at cap?

I was hoping this wasn't the case. That basically takes away any joy that I would have gotten from reaper.

Yes, Because having Lvl 20+ Quests open to every Lvl 20+ character made so much sense NOT!

Reaper and Legendary are two different things!

Legendary even as far as I know HAS Reaper difficulty on top!

Lvl 28 Quests
Brothers of the Forge
Haunted Halls

Lvl 29 Quests
Vol, GoP, Inferno, Fleshmakers

Lvl 30 Quests
Mask of Deception
Archons Trial, Demon Assault, Devils Details
Tavern Brawl, Grim & Barrett, Subversion, Multitude of Menace
ToEE Pt 1+2

Lvl 31 Quests
Memoirs
Good Intentions
Search and Rescue
To Curse the Sky
Creeping Death
Slave Lords x3

Lvl 28+ Raids
MoD
Defiler
Deathwyrm
Fire on Thunder Peaks
L-Shroud
L-HoX
L-TS

Yeah that really looks like a "few" {If your version of a few = 24 Quests and 7 Raids!}.

And that's just so far!
I haven't counted the new quest coming this update!






Reaper was specifically meant to provide BOTH a higher difficulty for Capped Players who found Legendary Elite too easy AND a Higher difficulty for Multiple Past Life Players wanting to be challenged while Levelling!

Eth
12-19-2016, 08:27 AM
Yeah that really looks like a "few" {If your version of a few = 24 Quests and 7 Raids!}.


That's 31 of 331.
There are so many great quests I would have loved to run on an end game difficulty, but I don't think I will TR everytime I want to run a specific quest at level in reaper mode. Let alone get a whole group together for that.

Mr_Helmet
12-19-2016, 10:01 AM
Quest level +2? That is completely awful. So we can only run a few reaper quests at cap?

I was hoping this wasn't the case. That basically takes away any joy that I would have gotten from reaper.

This disappoints me as well, I had hoped Reaper would be a new 'epic' and give us something to do at end-game.

Reaper doesn't do that.

Mr_Helmet
12-19-2016, 10:33 AM
Let alone get a whole group together for that.

This is a big point of fail regarding reaper: almost nobody will "level" the groups needed to complete this stuff at level. The tank builds handling the high-skull stuff are borderline unplayable and who levels healers these days?

Sam-u-r-eye
12-19-2016, 10:42 AM
Thanks for the list Fran.


I thought that was the case as well. I'd suggest a level cap on anything 5 stars or greater. Allow a wide range of character levels (and character power levels) to experiment with Reaper at the 1 star to 4 star range. Keep character level cap for Reaper stars 5 to 10 at the level of the quest to preserve the challenge for the highest levels of achievement.

I do believe Reaper needs to have respectable XP rewards to make it worth our time; however, running reaper should not be mandatory and for that reason the XP should be less than bravery bonus - perhaps just that standard xp of elite with no first time bravery bonus. I would suggest optional XP for reaper be greatly boosted (say 400%) as well as the bonus for Mischief, Tamper, observance, and aggression. Putting more XP focus on the optionals will give the quests a different feel and offset play styles that take the path of least resistance to more quickly finish the quests while skipping named encounters that might otherwise be extra work on Reaper

+1, excellent post


This is a big point of fail regarding reaper: almost nobody will "level" the groups needed to complete this stuff at level. The tank builds handling the high-skull stuff are borderline unplayable and who levels healers these days?

I could be an almost nobody.
I anticipate pugging groups on heroic for skull 1-3 for entertainment value. (In fact just collecting pugger's soul stones.)
My lfms for heroic quests are usually 4-5 quests behind since they finish so fast. Maybe they won't be, lol, if the reaper XP is marginal.

Mr_Helmet
12-19-2016, 10:46 AM
Reaper should not give any better XP, last thing we need are people trying to level their garbage-split PL builds (something I'm guilty of doing myself) in this content.

Sam-u-r-eye
12-19-2016, 10:52 AM
you know you're gonna be reaper piking

Sam-u-r-eye
12-19-2016, 10:54 AM
that or...

HJEAL MEH!

<3 Axer

Mr_Helmet
12-19-2016, 11:34 AM
that or...

HJEAL MEH!

<3 Axer

Axer was far too self-sufficient.

Talon_Moonshadow
12-19-2016, 12:05 PM
yeah well, the operative word in "battle cleric" is "cleric", and players who refuse outright to provide healing when it's needed just aren't playing it properly.

You missed my deeper point though, which is that self-healing is a primary class ability for *all* clerics, not just the "I am not a healer" ones. Weakening self-healing generally therefore weakens Clerics disproportionately compared to the other classes that seem to suffer no penalties to healing provided to them by those very same clerics. I was just pointing out specifically that players of "battle clerics" will be forced into an extensive Healer rôle that is contrary to the fundamental character design of their toons. (I do understand from people's comments BTW that this will be less true towards 1-skull Reaper, more true incrementally 2 Skulls up -- hence also my comments about the return of the "elitists" which much of this thread does seem to illustrate to some extent ; I'm not of course commenting on Reaper generally, just on one particular design aspect of it)


Well, I am undecided about what I think about this....

But many people have been designing self-sufficient build over the years.

I do not like having to depend on others to survive.

My current favorite Ranger build has a heavy investment in healing ability.

My worst fear is "return of the elitists" though... :(

Severlin
12-19-2016, 12:54 PM
~ Yes, we are continuing class passes. As an aside, Monks has been the hardest class so far because we had to fundamentally redesign handwraps, and Henshin Mystic was one of the hardest trees so far because it was a melee class that used spellpower. We had to make a hard decision between balancing it like that and making it hard from players to itemize, or moving it towards more traditional melee oriented stats. It took lots of discussion and design time.

~ We are still working on Reaper rewards and haven't revealed them yet. We have discussed that Reaper has a higher chance for Mythic bonuses and that named items have a chance for a new bonus that is type Reaper.

~ We want to add cosmetics to Reaper mode; as an example right now we have mini-Reaper pets that are fairly cool but we haven't worked out how players playing Reaper will obtain them. We'd like more bragging right type stuff.

Sev~

Wizza
12-19-2016, 01:00 PM
~ We want to add cosmetics to Reaper mode; as an example right now we have mini-Reaper pets that are fairly cool but we haven't worked out how players playing Reaper will obtain them. We'd like more bragging right type stuff.

Sev~

That is awesome news. Reaper is shaping up to be good.

Severlin
12-19-2016, 01:01 PM
We also want to do more "fix one thing" threads.

Sev~

Mr_Helmet
12-19-2016, 01:02 PM
My worst fear is "return of the elitists" though... :(

This absolutely will be the case in high-skull/high-level play. Sorry, that's just the reality.

Edwinge
12-19-2016, 01:08 PM
We also want to do more "fix one thing" threads.

Sev~

What about the rest of the list from the previous one thing result thread that weren't addressed yet? There are still many things on there that would be nice to have fixed.

Severlin
12-19-2016, 01:15 PM
What about the rest of the list from the previous one thing result thread that weren't addressed yet? There are still many things on there that would be nice to have fixed.

It depends on why those items were not addressed. Some were actually design change requests, some were redesigns rather than bug fixes that might be out of scope for that type of thread, and others might require large amounts of dev time as compared to the benefit (like the stupid ladder problems which offer minor annoyance but are remarkable time consuming to fix)

Sev~

Talon_Moonshadow
12-19-2016, 01:19 PM
This absolutely will be the case in high-skull/high-level play. Sorry, that's just the reality.


It doesn't have to be.... not at all...really.

But there are extremely few players that I can convince of that.

(if I can just find five others to group with, I'll be fine....)

Mr_Helmet
12-19-2016, 01:26 PM
It doesn't have to be.... not at all...really.



You haven't run any level-appropriate 10-skull have you?

goldengibblet
12-19-2016, 01:27 PM
~ Yes, we are continuing class passes. As an aside, Monks has been the hardest class so far because we had to fundamentally redesign handwraps, and Henshin Mystic was one of the hardest trees so far because it was a melee class that used spellpower. We had to make a hard decision between balancing it like that and making it hard from players to itemize, or moving it towards more traditional melee oriented stats. It took lots of discussion and design time.


Well are you going to hold off on Reaper and finish at least cleric, Fvs, and Druid first? Can you see the why I'm saying so? can you see the concerns about splitting the grouping even farther and creating a even larger disparity even though you are trying to encourage more grouping and healing?

It wouldn't hurt one bit to keep tweaking Reaper on Lamma until the passes are done, as you said Monk was quite difficult whereas the divines will have to be a great deal more straight forward (except the druid maybe?).

Am I missing something Sev?

Wizza
12-19-2016, 01:40 PM
Am I missing something Sev?

He doesn't love you, so he doesn't listen to you.

Besides, class passes will be done in 2 years.

Edwinge
12-19-2016, 02:09 PM
It depends on why those items were not addressed. Some were actually design change requests, some were redesigns rather than bug fixes that might be out of scope for that type of thread, and others might require large amounts of dev time as compared to the benefit (like the stupid ladder problems which offer minor annoyance but are remarkable time consuming to fix)

Sev~

Thanks for the response. I was under the assumption that many of them weren't addressed simply because you guys ran out of time for the patch those fixes were aimed at. I really liked seeing the updates to that list with things marked green as fixed and red/orange as won't be fixed (especially with the blurbs about why). I figured the stuff that was still in white were things that you all just didn't get around to and hoped they'd still be on the table for future investigation/fixing.

SirValentine
12-20-2016, 04:50 AM
~ Yes, we are continuing class passes.


Interesting. That directly contradicts what another (Turbine / Standing Stone) employee has posted multiple times. Why the changes from doing classes passes, to no longer doing class passes, to back to doing class passes again?

DYWYPI
12-20-2016, 09:11 AM
Before I had chance to get around to reading any replies on this thread regarding my [post #61 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/481592-Update-33-Patch-2-Update-34-Lamannia-Preview!?p=5908041&viewfull=1#post5908041)], Lamannia had already been closed again.


[...] My first suggestion is to select the turbineclientlauncher.exe when the dialog comes up asking for the game executable - if that's not the thing you've been selecting.

If that doesn't work and you are comfortable with trying a shot in the dark, my suggestion would be to modify your TurbineLauncher.exe.config so it looks like this (make sure the path is the same as your install directory, and make sure to replace any & characters with "&amp;"): ...

Yes Zyrca, I'd previously tried all the: turbine*.exe files within that directory; just in case one of them would solve the issue, before I made my initial forum post. :-)

Albeit if the same error occurs in the future, I'll try editing that XML based configuration file using the above modifications. Anyway, thanks for the suggestion, should I be faced with ["Error: Where is the game client Executable?"].

That was a good attempt at being helpful for your 1st DDO Community forums post. :-D


I also had this problem last evening, until Rys was sweet enough to help me with it. Tracked the problem down, and this helped me: ...

It would not surprise me; if it was something like, very specific [x86 Visual C++ 2005 redist] runtime revision version number wasn't present. Again, I'll probably consider looking at the version numbers should I get the same error; if Zyrca's suggestion does not solve the problem. Thanks for the feedback, I'll probably just have to wait until Lamannia opens next time, to see if I get the same error.

Move along, nothing to see here.

Severlin
12-20-2016, 10:13 AM
Interesting. That directly contradicts what another (Turbine / Standing Stone) employee has posted multiple times. Why the changes from doing classes passes, to no longer doing class passes, to back to doing class passes again?

I apologize if there was contradictory information someplace. We haven't even had a chance to do the third Favored Soul or Druid trees yet, much less an Artificer pass. Wizard and Sorcerer could use some attention; I am thinking specifically of Eldritch Knight. We certainly are not done with class passes. The caveat is that this year with the expansion on the horizon the pace might drop as we work towards the Ravenloft expansion.

Sev~

Gratch
12-20-2016, 11:43 AM
I apologize if there was contradictory information someplace. We haven't even had a chance to do the third Favored Soul or Druid trees yet, much less an Artificer pass. Wizard and Sorcerer could use some attention; I am thinking specifically of Eldritch Knight. We certainly are not done with class passes. The caveat is that this year with the expansion on the horizon the pace might drop as we work towards the Ravenloft expansion.

Sev~

Would be nice if you could enhance clerics/FVS before you go off for expansion work. Unless you think you'd get a lot more out of enhancing healers combined with said undead expansion. A lot of heroic cleric/FVS class abilities sort of fizzle out in higher epic levels (except for healing...).

Also feel free to re-use old anniversary type stuff for the next few years... while I enjoyed the last BIG BIG BIG anniversary event... the quest got old fast and it felt like a lot of work that doesn't contribute to the longevity of the game. Would prefer more lasting quests, class updates, cosmetics, new modes of play, bugfixes, etc. Though understandably you had to go big for the 10th.

azrael4h
12-20-2016, 11:50 AM
I apologize if there was contradictory information someplace. We haven't even had a chance to do the third Favored Soul or Druid trees yet, much less an Artificer pass. Wizard and Sorcerer could use some attention; I am thinking specifically of Eldritch Knight. We certainly are not done with class passes. The caveat is that this year with the expansion on the horizon the pace might drop as we work towards the Ravenloft expansion.

Sev~

Have you done any design work, or have any ideas on what you're doing with Favored Soul? Perhaps you can get early complaining started by the theory-crafters in here, by posting a preview of the pass. Cue the whining, rage, and cries of "NERF NAOW!"

Obviously I'm evil.

I think Sorcerer needs an actual third tree. No the Savants do not count as 4 trees. That's 1 tree with 4 tabs. When I ran my first Sorcerer, I was able to have effective Acid, Electric, Cold, and Fire spells on tap, and able to meet differing challenges. The second Sorcerer-post U19, had two of four, and was only useful in many quests because I heavily invested into Enchantment spells and could somewhat pull CC duties. I think they really need a generalist tree, one to help DC casting for those of us who prefer to have some DC-based capability on their Sorcerers, and that doesn't harm what limited versatility they have so badly that they become useless depending on content.

I haven't ran a Wizard since before U19, so I'm not familiar with them anymore, though I've been preparing a character to TR into one (my former Sorcerer, using a warlock life to grind EDs and gear). Same for Artificer, Druid, and Favored Soul.

Cordovan
12-20-2016, 12:04 PM
Interesting. That directly contradicts what another (Turbine / Standing Stone) employee has posted multiple times. Why the changes from doing classes passes, to no longer doing class passes, to back to doing class passes again?

I'm not sure where you got this belief, but as far as I am aware we've never said we no longer plan to update classes. We will be continuing to update classes over time, and in many cases doing it over the course of several game updates.

FranOhmsford
12-20-2016, 02:51 PM
I apologize if there was contradictory information someplace. We haven't even had a chance to do the third Favored Soul or Druid trees yet, much less an Artificer pass. Wizard and Sorcerer could use some attention; I am thinking specifically of Eldritch Knight. We certainly are not done with class passes. The caveat is that this year with the expansion on the horizon the pace might drop as we work towards the Ravenloft expansion.

Sev~

What about CLERICS?

SirValentine
12-20-2016, 03:41 PM
...as far as I am aware we've never said we no longer plan to update classes.


As far as I am aware, I never said that anyone said DDO no longer planned to update classes, either.



I'm not sure where you got this belief...


Here's an exact quote of one the things that has been said on the subject:



U3x will not be a "Favored Soul pass" in the same way U33 wasn't a "monk pass." The whole "pass" terminology is misleading and inaccurate.


This subject has been posted on by employee(s) more than once, making the message pretty clear that there were no more class passes. Which is why Sev's comment in this thread about continuing class passes surprised me.

And, yes, it was said that there would be "smaller updates" as part of "an ongoing and never-ending project"; I never claimed otherwise.

Mr_Helmet
12-20-2016, 03:46 PM
What about CLERICS?

They can hjeal, what else is needed?

SirValentine
12-20-2016, 04:39 PM
What about CLERICS?

There's been a many-years-long stream of decisions from the devs that, without reading their minds, at least seem to indicate hatred of Clerics. Skipping them for a class pass sounds par for the course.

I still remember the double Heal nerfs. And Earthquake's still MIA. And still only Wiz/Sorc get Augmentation items for all their spells. Oh, and while the devs are implementing random non-core "easy-button" classes, and messing with enhancements, they still haven't finished implementing Cleric basic class features.

And the few times they've done something nice, they like to put in a poison pill, too. E.g., add Divine Disciple? Nice. Oh, except it doesn't get spellpower-per-point-spent the way every other caster tree does. Update EA? Nice...oh, except we'll have to remove Renewal and nerf Divine Wrath while we're at it. Et cetera.

At least itemization hasn't been as overtly anti-Cleric lately as it was in the level-cap-20 days.

Severlin
12-20-2016, 06:15 PM
Yes, and clerics.

(I'd like to see Domains for clerics to help differentiate them from FS, but we shall see.)

Sev~

Kamode_Corebasher
12-20-2016, 06:26 PM
Yes, and clerics.

(I'd like to see Domains for clerics to help differentiate them from FS, but we shall see.)

Sev~

Domains == YES PLEASE!!

goldengibblet
12-20-2016, 06:56 PM
Yes, and clerics.

(I'd like to see Domains for clerics to help differentiate them from FS, but we shall see.)

Sev~



Before you go live with Reaper correct? Surely you guys must see why this will be crucial. :)

Sam-u-r-eye
12-20-2016, 09:32 PM
Before you go live with Reaper correct? Surely you guys must see why this will be crucial. :)

I guess see that the opposite would be true.
Cleric pass makes sense after healing is made important again.
People can fine-tune what they want in response to challenge, rather than getting a pass and some things being missed after reaper hits for QOL.

Tlorrd
12-20-2016, 10:21 PM
Yes, and clerics.

(I'd like to see Domains for clerics to help differentiate them from FS, but we shall see.)

Sev~

I'm taking the glass is half empty on this one ... cleric domains and/or pass is not coming in 2017 or anytime soon thereafter.

goldengibblet
12-21-2016, 08:39 AM
I guess see that the opposite would be true.
Cleric pass makes sense after healing is made important again.
People can fine-tune what they want in response to challenge, rather than getting a pass and some things being missed after reaper hits for QOL.

Listen Sam, I know you want Reaper and you want as soon as possible. But please for a moment step back and try to look at this objectively. With the normal update and patch schedule as a frame we can see one thing; if the cleric/FVS work is put off to be done after Reaper goes live it means that there will be at the very least 6-8 weeks if not 3 months before it happens.

What that means is that the damage will be done to grouping already and impacted the LFMS and player patterns for months before the divines even start getting back into the game. That damage will be like the BB player base fracturing on steroids, then after clerics and FVS are finally updated they will have to go back and retweak Reaper AGAIN to make allowances for group healing and mitigation.

Try to understand, this is about the game not my toons, I don't play clerics or Divines they are not to my tastes and honestly they were the hardest lives of my TR's. But I do want to see reaper succeed and help build up grouping and perhaps even improve the chances for those people who do like to play Divines. With that said, and acknowledging how big of an impact Reaper will make on the game and player base I'm telling you that you and I and everyone else would do better to be patient and encourage the Devs to take the time to do it right and get the Divines done so the whole thing works rather than making noise for the self-destructive satisfaction of having reaper go live before that happens.

Divines first, then reaper. It's the only way that won't hurt the game.

Natashaelle
12-21-2016, 08:51 AM
I'm taking the glass is half empty on this one ... cleric domains and/or pass is not coming in 2017 or anytime soon thereafter.

To be fair, it is one of the most difficult character classes to balance properly.

Conceptually, Clerics combine strong enough martial ability with a strong enough spellcasting ability and a powerful primary Healing ability. Add multiclassing, and the need to take great care becomes fairly self-evident.

Furthermore, one Aspect of the Class that very few iterations of D&D have ever sufficiently explored is the sort of radical specialisation that should ensue, logically, from religious devotion to particular deities and the moral and religious and magical ideals that those deities profess -- though the Eberron world design did deliberately water down that difficulty by basically establishing divine magic as being monolithic in its game effects regardless of origin.

Still, the god of thieves should provide rogue magic ; the goddess of Magic access to spellcasting ; the god of war, battle magic ; the goddess of Knowledge, divination ; and so on and so forth, and yet not provide the magic that is contrary or even just foreign to their creeds. Should a god of torture provide healing magic ? A goddess of winter provide flame strikes ?

But though it's true that this sort of complex differentiation is somewhat easily conceivable, in practice it is very hard to establish within even a tabletop game, let alone a computer version, if it is not established as a basic design principle of the game. And Gary Gygax didn't.

Less theoretically, there are also licensing questions, as this sort of deeper design issue belongs to the purview of Wizards of the Coast and its ownership of the IP and its game designers, not Standing Stones.

But -- Cleric Domains are a part of that IP, and so therefore are at least a part of these complexities.

The Devs I'm sure do have some wiggle room in all of this, but it is still unlikely IMO that Cleric Domains in DDO will enable the same sort of individual variation around that concept that a tabletop DM might ...

Rys
12-21-2016, 10:28 AM
Listen Sam, I know you want Reaper and you want as soon as possible. But please for a moment step back and try to look at this objectively. With the normal update and patch schedule as a frame we can see one thing; if the cleric/FVS work is put off to be done after Reaper goes live it means that there will be at the very least 6-8 weeks if not 3 months before it happens.

What that means is that the damage will be done to grouping already and impacted the LFMS and player patterns for months before the divines even start getting back into the game. That damage will be like the BB player base fracturing on steroids, then after clerics and FVS are finally updated they will have to go back and retweak Reaper AGAIN to make allowances for group healing and mitigation.

Try to understand, this is about the game not my toons, I don't play clerics or Divines they are not to my tastes and honestly they were the hardest lives of my TR's. But I do want to see reaper succeed and help build up grouping and perhaps even improve the chances for those people who do like to play Divines. With that said, and acknowledging how big of an impact Reaper will make on the game and player base I'm telling you that you and I and everyone else would do better to be patient and encourage the Devs to take the time to do it right and get the Divines done so the whole thing works rather than making noise for the self-destructive satisfaction of having reaper go live before that happens.

Divines first, then reaper. It's the only way that won't hurt the game.

Ah it's about the game! Of course you are doing it for the game. I feel like I heard that somewhere.

Wizza
12-21-2016, 11:22 AM
Ah it's about the game! Of course you are doing it for the game. I feel like I heard that somewhere.

I love this community!

Gratch
12-21-2016, 12:07 PM
Ah it's about the game! Of course you are doing it for the game. I feel like I heard that somewhere.

What game? I thought we were doing this for the squinty night council, the illuminati trucker division, and the orthon widow's league.

So we're in agreement: Reaper, cleric domains, and a 3rd FVS Avenger tree all by January.

Also will somebody wake up Hicks... and have him replace this unusable thing - peeps keeping hjealing my FVS to make this unusable:

Vengeful Magic: (Requires: Favored Soul level 18) You gain a +1% Sacred bonus to Spell Critical chance when below 75% health, a +1 Sacred bonus to your spell DC's when below 50% health, and a +50% Sacred bonus Spell Critical Damage Multiplier with Fire, Force, Light, and Physical damage spells when below 25% health.

Godzuki420
12-21-2016, 12:10 PM
I just tried to log into the game and a new window pops up and asks me where the game client is executable. Do I need to reinstall the game or is this a new bug that has popped up?

Rys
12-21-2016, 12:31 PM
I just tried to log into the game and a new window pops up and asks me where the game client is executable. Do I need to reinstall the game or is this a new bug that has popped up?

My friend encountered this issue few days ago. Tracking down the issue took some time but the solution was fairly easy.

Go into your add or remove programs window and uninstall the Microsoft Visual C++ 2005 Redistributable version.
Then go here: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?displaylang=en&id=26347 and install this version.

There is some problem with version 8.0.50727.762

The 61001 version should fix the problem.

(Reinstalling the game won't help.)

FranOhmsford
12-21-2016, 12:34 PM
What game? I thought we were doing this for the squinty night council, the illuminati trucker division, and the orthon widow's league.

Nah, We're doing it for the Children of course.

goldengibblet
12-21-2016, 02:03 PM
Ah it's about the game! Of course you are doing it for the game. I feel like I heard that somewhere.

Of course it's about the game. Maybe you should stop acting like a troll, it's not clever or funny.

goldengibblet
12-21-2016, 02:06 PM
What game? I thought we were doing this for the squinty night council, the illuminati trucker division, and the orthon widow's league.

So we're in agreement: Reaper, cleric domains, and a 3rd FVS Avenger tree all by January.

Also will somebody wake up Hicks... and have him replace this unusable thing - peeps keeping hjealing my FVS to make this unusable:

Vengeful Magic: (Requires: Favored Soul level 18) You gain a +1% Sacred bonus to Spell Critical chance when below 75% health, a +1 Sacred bonus to your spell DC's when below 50% health, and a +50% Sacred bonus Spell Critical Damage Multiplier with Fire, Force, Light, and Physical damage spells when below 25% health.




No. cleric and FVS passes while Reaper is put on hold until and polished in the meantime.

Rys
12-21-2016, 02:15 PM
Of course it's about the game. Maybe you should stop acting like a troll, it's not clever or funny.

Not about you at all...not at all...

Wizza
12-21-2016, 02:18 PM
Of course it's about the game. Maybe you should stop acting like a troll, it's not clever or funny.

Funny coming from you.

changelingamuck
12-21-2016, 02:50 PM
Would be nice if you could enhance clerics/FVS before you go off for expansion work. Unless you think you'd get a lot more out of enhancing healers combined with said undead expansion.

Not to nitpick too much, but I'm seeing this misconception about Ravenloft a lot. Ravenloft isn't an 'undead setting'. It's a whole campaign setting populated by many lands filled mostly with humans and demi-humans. It's a gothic horror pastiche setting so it does have a lot of undead adversaries; but there are many, many, many different types of potential player character enemies in it. As a fictional genre, gothic horror encompasses creature types like golems, lycanthropes/therianthropes, slashers, poisoners, cultists, machiavellian manipulators, hags, goblinoid races, dark faeries, demons/devils, lovecraftian abberations like mindflayers, etc. etc. And it's a fantasy-horror setting so it's reach as a genre is even more diverse than those traditional non-undead categories...

Gratch
12-21-2016, 06:15 PM
Not to nitpick too much, but I'm seeing this misconception about Ravenloft a lot. Ravenloft isn't an 'undead setting'. It's a whole campaign setting populated by many lands filled mostly with humans and demi-humans. It's a gothic horror pastiche setting so it does have a lot of undead adversaries; but there are many, many, many different types of potential player character enemies in it. As a fictional genre, gothic horror encompasses creature types like golems, lycanthropes/therianthropes, slashers, poisoners, cultists, machiavellian manipulators, hags, goblinoid races, dark faeries, demons/devils, lovecraftian abberations like mindflayers, etc. etc. And it's a fantasy-horror setting so it's reach as a genre is even more diverse than those traditional non-undead categories...

While I hope you are right and we get a varied Ravenloft "fantasy gothic horror" expansion of a large number of adventures, Ravenloft in D&D mythos is iconically tied to Strahd and the Hickman's initial module. If not him I'm sure some form of undead will take center stage, though maybe not. Hopefully a DDO Ravenloft expansion will have a strong theme, some horror, and follow down the "what made the original I6 so good". Random placement of items needed to complete the quest, random placement of the baddies, and if they can, randomizing how/which items are employed to finish the quest much like Strahd's "motivation card" from the original. (A little Study in Sable with some Litany of the Dead path variance)...

Also a raid. With some varied puzzles like Deathwyrm (but not that many) and an Endfight like a combo of LoB and Fall of Truth. Easy. *pokes Torc to get to it*

Sam-u-r-eye
12-22-2016, 12:24 AM
Of course it's about the game. Maybe you should stop acting like a troll, it's not clever or funny.

Stop accusing people of silliness.

Xiongrey
12-22-2016, 12:01 PM
Can Artificers just get Eldritch Knight or Mechanic as a temporary third tree since its looking like they wont get a pass until 2018 or later?

Sam-u-r-eye
12-22-2016, 01:09 PM
Air savant would also be good.

Xiongrey
12-22-2016, 01:19 PM
Air savant would also be good.

Not a bad idea, but in my opinion they don't need another tree that adds to electrical spell power, but I could see Eldritch Knight benefiting (from and to) both Arcanotechnician and Battle engineer. While not ideal of course, it could make Artificer's just a little more enjoyable and diverse while we wait patiently another year or more for the real Artificer pass.

Xiongrey
12-22-2016, 01:22 PM
Even better would be to combine Battle Engineer and Eldritch Knight and give them Air Savant as third tree but at that rate they might as well be doing the full Arti pass.

Ulfo
12-23-2016, 02:47 PM
Even better would be to combine Battle Engineer and Eldritch Knight and give them Air Savant as third tree but at that rate they might as well be doing the full Arti pass.

Ah... it's all simple and uninteresting solution... How about create brand new Drone Operator tree? 8)

Xiongrey
12-26-2016, 02:18 PM
While I agree that a new tree would be great, I was purposefully asking for something simple that would be quick and easy for them to just throw in with some patch or update, since it looks as if the Arti pass will not happen anytime in the next year. Even a tree ripped from another class could be fun tinkering with some new possibilities. I understand that this isn't necessary for those that just blow thru for the past lives, but for someone that builds to play an Arti up to 30 and plays one as my main. I'm trying to keep my disappointment in check. A class that I and probably a lot of others purchased with cash, is still incomplete 5 years after it was introduced. Now we are being told that many class passes will be delayed in favor of introducing more pay to play content (Quests, Races, Standalone Enhancement Trees). I understand that it is a business, and they have to have product to sell customers to stay in business.