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doubledge
11-05-2016, 04:20 PM
Right now, the Pale Master tree is fun, is unique, and does its job well. However, the forms? The forms leave much to be desired.

A lot of the forms seem to be just... niche, and who doesn't enjoy the idea of turning into more types of undead. I propose making that for each enhancement, there should be a multi-selector allowing you to choose between two forms.

With no further ado,here are my proposed changes. Updated effects and new forms are italics. For saving space, undead immunities/traits will not be listed. Explanations will be below

Core 1: Dark Shrouding
+0.75 negative and+0.75 universal SP per enhancement point
When not in undead form, you gain 10% negative energy absorb per core enhancement you possess. This disappears when you enter an undead form.

Core 2: Zombie/Skeleton

Zombie:
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -4 Charisma, DR 5/Slash, +5 PRR
-20% attack speed
+1[w]with unarmed attacks. +25% threat generation.
On crit, 1d6 int damage
Bone Armor: +3/6/10 PRR
Improved Shroud: Shroud of the Juju Zombie
+2 Con
+15 PRR
+5 DR/Slash
+20% attack speed

Zombie form, in my opinion, is unfocused. It feels like a tanking enhancement, and if that's really what they intended, then by all means they should go for it. However, it feels really bad to be shoehorned into a relatively useless stance for three levels. My changes slightly boost its durability, and make it better at tanking.

Skeleton
-2 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma, DR 5/bludgeon
+50% cold absorb
Bone Armor: +3/6/10 PRR
Improved Shroud: Shroud of the Blackbone Skeleton
+10 PRR
+5 DR/bludgeon
+50% fire absorb

Skeleton form is supposed to be a lighter, less specialised undead form. Lacking in physical stats, this one is for the casters that don't want to get into the middle of the fight, and/or don't want to take a hit to intelligence. The cold absorb represents the usual skeleton immunity to cold.

Core 3: Vampire/Wight

Vampire:
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Charisma
+2 Enchantment spell DC
-25% threat
Melee attacks heal you for 1 negative energy
On Crit: 1d6 constitution damage to target, gain temporary hitpoints equal to caster level
Triple light vulnerability
Bone Armor: +3/6/10 PRR
Improved Shroud: Shroud of the Master Vampire
+2 Dex, +2 Charisma
+1 enchantment DC, +1 Illusion DC
Vampirism is increased to 2d2
Light damage vulnerability reduced to 200%
When ever you drop below 25% hp, you self-cast Dark Discorporation on yourself. This effect can only occur once every thirty seconds.

Looking through the current vampire, I can't help but realise that vampires, the literal king of charisma, receive no charisma bonus. This is absurd. The new changes makes upgraded vampire a more competitive option for enchanters, and actually gives them a reason for caster vampires to take improved shroud. (+2 dex? Really?)

Wight:
+4 Strength, +2 Constitution
+1d6 sneak attack
+10 hide and move silently
On vorpal: target receives a negative level


Bone armor: +3/6/10 PRR
Improved Shroud: Shroud of the Barrow Wight
+2 Strength
+2d6 sneak attack
+5 hide and move silently
Negative levels on vorpal is increased to 1d3

A much more melee focused stance, this stance is for melee dps. I get a feeling that it'd be pretty effective for monks too.

Core 4: Wraith/Mummy

Wraith:
+25% Incorpreality
Featherfall
+20 move silently,+20 balance
Ghost touch
On crit: 1d6 Strength damage
+2 reflex save
+10 to hit
+2 dodge
Bone armor: +1/2/3 Dodge and dodge cap
Improved Shroud: Shroud of the Dread Wraith
+2 Dexterity
Incorpreal miss chance increases to 35%
+2 reflex save
+10 to hit
+3 dodge


DDO's always been generous to incorporeal enemies when it came to attack bonus, as we don't exactly have touch AC sorted out. In addition, wraiths don't inflict constitution damage: they inflict strength. I've added some more reflex and dodge to wraith, as it feels the most like an evasion stance.

Mummy:
+2 Strength, +4 Constitution, +2 Charisma, +5 DR/-,+10 PRR
On crit, inflict Mummy's Curse on target for a number of seconds equal to your character level. On crit, inflict Mummy rot on target.
+100% incoming damage from fire.
Bone armor: +3/6/10 PRR
Improved Shroud: Shroud of the Mummy Lord
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, +5 DR/-, +10 PRR
You gain a modified Mummy Despair aura (enemies near you must roll a will save equal to (Wizard level + Int modifier) or be frozen in place for a number of seconds equal to your character level. Every three seconds, the victim gets a new reroll. Each enemy can only be effected by this aura once per three minutes.)
Incoming fire damage reduced by 50% (reduced to 150% incoming)

What we have here,is the stance Zombie wished it could be. Designed to allow melee wizards to duke it out with the best of them, this stance hopefully provides enough incentive to step out of wraith form.

Core 5: Lich/Quell

Lich:
+2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma
+2 DC to necromancy spells
On melee hit: 2d6 negative energy damage against living targets
+15 negative spellpower
Bone Armor: +3/6/10 PRR
Improved Shroud: Shroud of the Archlich
+2 intelligence
+1 DC to necromancy spells
+10 Negative Spellpower
Gain boon of undeath (heal 1d6+2 negative energy when hit)

Previously a no-brainer stance, this stance represents the biggest and baddest a Pale Master can be. I've bumped up the necromancy DC to match vampire's bonus to enchantment, and increased their negative energy bonus by 15. However, I've dropped its constitution, because Lich, as it is, makes you far too tanky. I've also removed their random temporary hp proc, and instead given them boon of undeath, which is a lot more reliable.

Quell:
+25% Incorporeal
Featherfall
+10 move silently, +10 balance
Ghost touch
+10 to hit
While in the form of a quell, you gain access to Inflict Serious Wounds as a spell-like ability. This variant scales with Wizard caster level.
You gain spell resistance equal to (Wizard Level + Epic Level + Int Modifier)/2.


Bone armor: +1/2/3 Dodge and dodge cap
Improved Shroud: Shroud of the Spurned Quell
Incorporeal increases to 35%
+10 to hit
While in the form of a quell, you can cast Harm spontaneously, as a 5th level spell. This variant scales with wizard caster level.
Your spell resistance increases to (Wizard Level +Epic Level + Int Modifier)
On offensive spellcast: 2% chance at casting disjunction

Wraith's bigger,meaner brother. By giving up the massive bonus of negative spellpower and necromancy DCs that Lich grants, you can gain access to SLA Inflict Serious, and Harm as a 5th level spell. This form isn't as specialized for DC casting as lich, but is instead for support, and utility.

Core 6: Master of Undeath

+2 Intelligence
Deathblock
While an undead stance is active, gain +10 negative amplification.
When in an undead stance, you receive 50% less incoming light damage (Reduced to 150% for most stances)


So what's your opinion?

Pyed-Pyper
11-05-2016, 05:32 PM
Updated effects are in red

Maybe check tags?

Saekee
11-05-2016, 05:34 PM
Great ideas!

doubledge
11-05-2016, 09:01 PM
Maybe check tags?

Oops.

Updated effects are Italics now.

Careall
11-08-2016, 02:01 PM
Why not a Necro class versus the PM Enhancement tree? Could have its own feats, spells, and enhancement trees. Just throwing out some initial thoughts without much thought...

Bound Undead Tree: Zombies, Spirits (combat ghosts), and Skeletons - combat oriented

Sovereign Undead Tree: Vampires, Mummies, Ghosts, and Wights - balanced magic/combat

Undead Lords: Wraiths and Necromancers - magic and summoning

A necro class could have limited spell casting abilities, except when in a Bound Undead form (see below). Necros would have a toggle that could switch into/out of undead forms, perhaps with a medium reset timer (5 minutes?). Perhaps as a self-healing option, changing forms to or from undead may provide about a 25%-50% total HP heal, but the drawback would be the reset timer to change forms and maybe a spell-point cost or limited uses per rest. Necros would have their own spells list, which would exclude most current negative healing spells. Instead, SLAs would replace negative healing based on the Enhancement trees.

Bound Undead might be great warriors capable of some form of limited undead regeneration or a minimal, limited, and/or slow self-healing SLA: They really like to hang out as defenders of the other undead forms, but can solo too, with strong attacks and defenses (PR/MR, ghost miss %), and high HP/level. To balance, maybe prohibited from casting spells or using UMD while in form (pots would be ok, particularly useful for healing). Vorpal hit (or crits?) cause some form of disease, fear, or stat damage, which can be improved by spending APs or other means.

Sovereign Undead might cast terrible curses and diseases on their enemies, causing them penalties, stat damage, and level draining, limited mind control effects (fear, charm, etc.) balanced with moderate ability to deal combat damage and take a hit or two, as well as decent self negative healing and limited aoe negative healing.

Undead Lords would be the power-casters, but are generally weak in combat with some reasonable defensive capabilities and relatively lower HP/level. Their primary focus would be on summoning and support, with major negative healing and aoe negative healing spells. Perhaps an ability to cast an SLA light resistance on themselves or a given target.

Mr_Helmet
11-08-2016, 02:50 PM
Since he's now undead, Harambe form is needed.

Pyed-Pyper
11-08-2016, 03:21 PM
.....

Sovereign Undead might cast terrible curses and diseases on their enemies, causing them penalties, stat damage, and level draining, limited mind control effects (fear, charm, etc.) balanced with moderate ability to deal combat damage and take a hit or two, as well as decent self negative healing and limited aoe negative healing.

.....

Sorry to be the one that predicts rain for your parade, but considering the current state of the game and how epic mobs are buffed, I cannot see how any of this would work past level 20, especially the quoted section.

slarden
11-08-2016, 04:00 PM
shroud of the dragon lich please.

Pyed-Pyper
11-08-2016, 04:15 PM
Right now, the Pale Master tree is fun, is unique, and does its job well. However, the forms? The forms leave much to be desired.
.....
So what's your opinion?

I like the idea of more forms. An undead ghoul/rogue knuckle-walking through a quest could be fun. And your observation about vampire and charisma is spot on.

Lore-wise, vamp should get a charisma boost. I'd like to see vamp get better boosts to enchant and illusion, but those DCs are tied to intelligence, so I don't see a direct benefit of boosted charisma. Undead shiradi spammers would have a reason to run vamp instead of zombie. Perhaps vamp form could get some sort of charisma-based ability normally associated with other classes (e.g. Command (http://ddowiki.com/page/Command_(item)) or Fascinate (http://ddowiki.com/page/Fascinate))

One suggestion I have regarding forms in general is that the first core be a multi-selector for the all forms, then each core gives a boost to that form. Each form is then incrementally strengthening as cores are taken. Then tiered enhancments would be the place to have options to strengthen that form, e.g. improved shrouding provides Fascinate for vamp, immunity to 5>lev spells for lich and so on. That might lead to more build variety throughout the levels. A melee-oriented build might run zombie (or mummy), while a caster might run vamp or lich.

As an aside, when Animate Ally (http://ddowiki.com/page/Animate_Ally) is used on a PM in form, there should be no rotting damage. It should be a permanent 'raise'.

Careall
11-12-2016, 12:04 AM
Sorry to be the one that predicts rain for your parade, but considering the current state of the game and how epic mobs are buffed, I cannot see how any of this would work past level 20, especially the quoted section.

You are absolutely correct. Would have to have something... more/else. Probably a balance between combat and summon/support. Include the curses and diseases for pre-20 play.

doubledge
11-12-2016, 01:49 AM
shroud of the dragon lich please.

:P No way. However, I can imagine putting "Dracolich" into the draconic incarnation tree, granting negative-energy based abilities.

the_one_dwarfforged
11-18-2016, 07:13 AM
i think for the most part this is a great suggestion.