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Dulcimerist
10-19-2016, 10:01 AM
I had started a thread here:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/479324-Overpriced-Racial-Enhancements
but probably should've posted it in this forum instead.

For most builds, there's generally no room for much in the way of racial enhancements. I always want to use them since they add more racial "flavor" to each build, but class enhancements tend to be much better from a practical standpoint. What if the racial enhancement system was separate from the class enhancement system? Perhaps each character would get 4AP for only racial enhancements at character creation, and 1AP for only racial enhancements at each level up. Since these specialized AP would be restricted to racial enhancements, it would still be impossible to gain two capstones.

Thoughts?

Enoach
10-19-2016, 11:07 AM
My thought is not that Racial should be separate but that Racial Tree should be competitive with the Races Favorite class. This may mean changing the cost, possibly removing dependencies.

dunklezhan
10-19-2016, 12:05 PM
I had started a thread here:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/479324-Overpriced-Racial-Enhancements
but probably should've posted it in this forum instead.

For most builds, there's generally no room for much in the way of racial enhancements. I always want to use them since they add more racial "flavor" to each build, but class enhancements tend to be much better from a practical standpoint. What if the racial enhancement system was separate from the class enhancement system? Perhaps each character would get 4AP for only racial enhancements at character creation, and 1AP for only racial enhancements at each level up. Since these specialized AP would be restricted to racial enhancements, it would still be impossible to gain two capstones.

Thoughts?

I think that this would be more 'power' in the game and we don't really need that.

Better I think would be to do it more like I've seen it done in pathfinder (possibly also in dnd 3.5, I don't know, the XP costs for magical crafting put me off 3.5 so much I never bothered to play it): they basically say 'this is the standard racial bonus package. You can customise this by taking one of these benefits
[list]. Each one says what standard ability it replaces.' E.g. a halfling can take I think sling mastery instead of the more standard halfling luck. There are often also 'race packages' for different subsets where they might say something like 'if you're playing a human from X tribe, you can instead take this package of racial abilities'

In DDO, that could translate as "no race gets a fixed package except for basic stat adjustments, but they get X 'points' of some kind to spend on racial enhancements, which amongst other things include the bonuses and penalties that are usually standard to that race" - with buttons to just buy pre-define racial packages.

Things like Valinar and Aerenal for elves should be determined at the start for instance, and would be a pre-defined racial package, not determined as you start to spend AP. You don't become more from one place whilst you're off on a totally different continent!

This would allow for some flavoursome racial build options, but it would all be done at chargen, not as you level. Class AP enhancement spends would then continue as now.

Aelonwy
10-20-2016, 07:13 AM
I actually agree with OP, although not to 4AP at start. Rather I would like to receive 1 AP per level (5th dot) that can only be used in racial tree. Look at how slowly the devs have been "balancing" the classes. Its going to be ages before they get around to racial trees, if ever. Yeah, yeah I know, we don't need more power. No, we don't but some of us would like more flavor. Unfortunately, the power and the flavor are all mixed haphazardly together like a tossed salad. Some races have very powerful tier1 choices with very little cost (e.g. human) other races have to spend quite a bit in the tree to get anything really competitive with class trees (e.g. half orc). But honestly, I don't see the devs doing anything at all for racial enhancements... its just too low on their priority lists.

dunklezhan
10-20-2016, 08:04 AM
I actually agree with OP, although not to 4AP at start. Rather I would like to receive 1 AP per level (5th dot) that can only be used in racial tree. Look at how slowly the devs have been "balancing" the classes. Its going to be ages before they get around to racial trees, if ever. Yeah, yeah I know, we don't need more power. No, we don't but some of us would like more flavor. Unfortunately, the power and the flavor are all mixed haphazardly together like a tossed salad. Some races have very powerful tier1 choices with very little cost (e.g. human) other races have to spend quite a bit in the tree to get anything really competitive with class trees (e.g. half orc). But honestly, I don't see the devs doing anything at all for racial enhancements... its just too low on their priority lists.

It is the "more power" problem though. Don't get me wrong - I want to invest more in racials and I can never quite justify it so I do want them to do something to encourage it.
I mean, I kow 1AP is hardly a 'OP' idea, I don't mean to disagree with the principle you're advocating and the sky wouldn't fall in if they did it. But I'm very, very wary of adding more power just now.

Dulcimerist
10-20-2016, 11:37 AM
Thanks everyone for the added discussion!

I do agree that there's a lot of power in the game. I'm unsure how much more power would be added by the idea proposed, but it would add some. On one hand, most builds pretty much bypass racial enhancements because they're not all that powerful; but on the other hand, the ability to freely dump points into racial enhancements makes some of the stronger (but not too overpowered) top tier racial enhancements easily accessible.

Flavor is the goal. There are some cool racial enhancements (Nothing is Hidden comes to mind) which might make certain races a bit more appealing with certain classes. Racial weapon enhancements do add some obvious power (+4 attack and damage available to rapiers, shortswords, and shuriken on Drow, for example), but that might encourage players to use racially-flavored weapons rather than jumping on the khopesh bandwagon. In the case of racial weapons, the racial enhancement idea might simply make less-powerful weapon choices more viable and competitive with current builds, adding more balance rather than power.

When I started the thread, I was thinking back to my days playing Pathfinder, and the racial traits I could choose from or swap. dunklezhan's idea of racial enhancement packages sounds appealing. I do remember some racial traits that could be selected based on your chosen class, along with the "automatic" standard racial traits. Perhaps there could be a caster package, a melee package, a ranged package, or whatever. Starting package enhancements could scale as the character levels, such as a racial weapon enhancement gaining an extra +1 attack and damage every four levels.

I'm unsure which idea would be easiest to implement into the game, as far as software programming goes. If it's easier to keep the racial enhancement system more or less the way it is, but split it off to dedicated "racial enhancement only" APs, the spirit of dunklezhan's idea might be able to implemented by more enhancements having the "choose one" option. Subsequent tiers could have prerequisites based on which enhancements were chosen at those earlier tiers. This would sort of create "paths" to follow in the racial enhancements, and the "choose one" enhancements would lock out other enhancements so that players couldn't simply load up on all of the most powerful enhancements. That should enhance racial flavoring of builds, while curbing some of the extra power added to the game.

stormbolt81
02-10-2017, 12:37 AM
Hello Everyone =)

I agree with the OP that Racial Enhancements should have its own AP system to address the issue of competing for AP resources.

The following are just personal opinions of mine:
Class Enhancements are somewhat more superior than the Racial Enhancements, resulting in many players favouring Class over Race.
This seems to gives rise to a situation whereby players would spend points in mostly class enhancements, the race does not seem to matter as long as the beginning stats or penalties given to the race does not impede the build/class selection (just a skin).
Simply balancing Racial enhancements with Class enhancements would not solve the issue of competing for AP resources.

Additionally, below are a few areas of possible improvement I hope our Dungeon Masters (Developers) would explore:
Adopt a lore-based approach (flavour) to enhance the existing races can give both existing and new players a better DDO experience, in particular to players who are familiar to those campaign settings.
For instance, the Valenar Elf (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Valenar) and Aerenal Elf (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Aerenal), all come from the same racial template of Elf, but have a different sub-race template.
Each type of Elf have their own expertise from the culture/locale they come from, not just limited to the generic template with sub-modifications to favoured weapon type as we have today.
Opening up of Necromancy (House Vol/Priests of Transition) to the Aerenal Elves and Druidic Powers (Horse Watchers) to Valenar Elves would be really nice to have, and potentially be sold as Iconic races (hopefully without being tied to base classes).

Since Steelstar has mentioned that the racial passes are in the works, I wonder if any of our Dungeon Masters would be willing to give us an Insight to what is to come?
That would really be nice =)

Maquist
02-10-2017, 05:41 AM
I'm not 100% sold on the idea, but I'm also not 100% opposed to it. And reading through, I did have another thought that people may want to include in the discussion. That would be to use a mechanic similar to epic desitnies. As you progress through certain levels, you would gain cores automatically, regardless of spending points in the racial tree. And the cores that you gain for free would not necessarily need to be the cores in the trees now. As humans, that would be three action boosts and two stat increases, and that seems a little overly powerful to be a free increase. And I don't know how well it would work to have a multi-selector be auto-granted. It would involve making a change to the level-up process where you'd have to choose which option, and I don't know if that would be prohibitively difficult or time-consuming on its own. Just some thoughts.

JOTMON
02-10-2017, 07:33 AM
I had started a thread here:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/479324-Overpriced-Racial-Enhancements
but probably should've posted it in this forum instead.

For most builds, there's generally no room for much in the way of racial enhancements. I always want to use them since they add more racial "flavor" to each build, but class enhancements tend to be much better from a practical standpoint. What if the racial enhancement system was separate from the class enhancement system? Perhaps each character would get 4AP for only racial enhancements at character creation, and 1AP for only racial enhancements at each level up. Since these specialized AP would be restricted to racial enhancements, it would still be impossible to gain two capstones.

Thoughts?


Had an old thread that suggested using a Racial past lives to generate Racial tree only use AP.
Give rise to another hamster wheel past life grind.. Racial Completionist...
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/468044-Racial-Completionis

the_one_dwarfforged
02-10-2017, 03:28 PM
Personally I like the idea of racial ap but I think it's perhaps the most damaging choice to the health of the game. Adding a decent amount of power to the racial trees would be ok as long as they use the standard so pool only because of the traditional opportunity cost involved. Personally I think that sounds great because then human (for example) or perhaps half orc, dwarf, robot, etc isn't always going to be the best fighter regardless of your intended build design (twf khopesh dps, twf scimi dps, etc). Some builds would potentially be willing to sacrifice more for specific powerful bonuses from the racial tree to specific aspects of a given build while others may not. For example suppose elves get more damage with scimitars than you could get with kta. Being an elf means you have to use scimitars and don't get the tactics bonus but you gain more damage and you don't have to manage a buff. Furthermore one might invest heavily in scimitars because of this, which wouldn't be optimal for another race on the same class split build. That being said, that was just one example and a bad one at that, the racial trees should preferably not continue the trend of equating everything directly into dps only.

I also really like the idea of variable racial starting packages, though I think this strategy would be very susceptible to imbalance and being less than ideal for even flavor reasons if not enough options were available. Probably would need some level of adjustability even though that's antithetical to the entire point of using such a system.

If we get racial only ap, I think either those ap need to be severely limited in number or racial trees need to be weak.

Qhualor
02-10-2017, 03:58 PM
I have a strong feeling when the racial enhancement pass comes there will be a separate AP pool to spend. that means more power creep labeled as "small bonuses" yet again that are completely unnecessary outside of Reaper. unfortunately with Reaper now here, any improvements or nerfs will be done in the name of balance and with Reaper as a central focus on why there needs to be change, the rest of the game be damned. racial enhancements should be just as compelling as class or Harper enhancements to make tough build choices, which I suspect will be once they get their boost in power, but I bet it will be a separate AP system.

Mr_Helmet
02-10-2017, 03:59 PM
If SSG does this they will chose to do so in the stupidest way possible (their track record proves this). The mandatory racial AP will come from your total 80 points.

Amundir
02-10-2017, 04:52 PM
I dunno that I'd get behind a separate pool for racial enhancements. If you add more points just for racial enhancements your just adding power creep and if you restrict some of the existing AP for just racial enhancements your limiting player build choices.

I think someone else said it and I agree. More thought should be placed towards the racial enhancements. If there are cases where racial enhancements are never being taken because there is always something better else where, then that would seem to point more towards that racial tree not being competitive enough with other trees to warrant players choosing to spend points in them vs others.

Then again, maybe that is the developer intentions. Considering that you can't multi-race, once you choose a class it's a guarantee that you'll have the opportunity to max it out. That doesn't hold true with class trees. Maybe it is there intention that players are drawn more towards the class trees of classes they've actively chosen to advance in, and left racial trees as more of a fill in the blanks or small perks selection.

Dunno. I do know when I choose what to do for my next life after a TR racial ability mods and racial tree enhancements do play into my decision. Maybe i'm in the minority though.

EllisDee37
02-10-2017, 05:00 PM
How about adding class-based tier 5s to racial trees, including the lockout mechanic that prevents taking a class tier 5 if you took a racial tier 5. Something like:

Elf: Deepwood stalker tier 5
Dwarf: Stalwart Defender tier 5
Half-Orc: Frenzied Berserker tier 5
etc...

Chimmy
02-11-2017, 07:56 AM
If they changed up all of the racial trees and reduced them all to very basic bonus choices, then maybe, but if they just gave us 15 free racial points to spend, some races would benefit massively over others from it.

KoobTheProud
02-12-2017, 12:56 AM
How about removing the racial trees entirely and just adding the highlights to the racial feats of the given race?

Humans would get +20 Improved Recovery at level 1, +20 Improved Recovery at 15, Versatility I, III and III (choice of at level 2, 5, 10), if they took a Dragonmark they would would get Focus at 2, Lesser at 5, Greater at 10 and Capstone at 15.

Elven races of all sorts would get Arcane Fluidity 15% at level 1.

Elves would get +2% to hit at level 1, +2% more at 6, +2% more at 12, Nothing is Hidden I at level 5, II at level 10 and III at level 15, they would get Enchantment Lore III at level 10, if they took the Dragonmark of Phiarlan Feat they would get Phiarlan Focus at level 2, Lesser Dragonmark at level 5 and Greater Dragonmark at level 10 and Binding Shadows at level 15.

Drow would get SR 10+level, +2 at level 5, +2 more at level 10 and +2 more at 15 (SSG needs to fix Insightful SR not stacking with racial SR), Nothing is Hidden I at level 5, II at level 10 and III at level 15, they would get Enchantment Lore III at level 10.

Half-Elves would get Improved Recovery +20 at level 1, Improved Dilettante I at level 2, Improved Dilettante II at level 3, Improved Dilettante III at level 6 and Improved Dilettante IV at level 10, if they took the Dragonmark of Lyrander Feat they would get Lyrander Focus at 2, Lesser DM at 5, Greater DM at 10 and Power of the Storm at 15.

Halflings would get Stealthy III and Skillful Thrower at level 1, Halfling Luck +1 to saves at levels 2, 5 and 10 and Master Thrower at level 15, if they took the Dragonmark of Jorasco Feat they would get Jorasco Focus at 2, Lesser DM at 5 and Greater DM at 10.

Dwarves would get Stout III and Dwarven Armor Mastery III at 1, +10 HP at 2, 5 and 10, Dwarven Runes I at 2, II at 5 and III at 10 and Stand Like Stone III at 15, if they took the Dragonmark of Kundarak Feat they would get Kundarak Focus at 2, Lesser DM at 5, Greater DM at 10 and Hands of Stone at 15.

Warforged would get Inscribed Armor III at level 1, choice of Healer's Friend or Mechanist at 2 (would be 1 but the choice is better not made in character creation for smoothness), Improved Fortification I at 2, II at 5 and III at 10 and Improved Body (choice of Adamantine Durability or Mithral Fluidity) at 15.

Basically give the outstanding features of each race to each character and let AP's be spent just on class enhancements, which is where they are mostly spent now. You might have to balance a bit but the above list would not turn into a meta of men and bots.

C-Dog
02-12-2017, 04:34 AM
Thoughts?

So, are you suggesting that we skip right over power "creep" and go straight to power zerg by giving everyone a (small?) pile of racial enhancements, or that this would be "balanced" by a reduction in class AP so that any build that ignores racial enhancements gets gimped?

Just curious, my "thoughts" would depend on which.

Qhualor
02-12-2017, 05:08 AM
How about removing the racial trees entirely and just adding the highlights to the racial feats of the given race?

Humans would get +20 Improved Recovery at level 1, +20 Improved Recovery at 15, Versatility I, III and III (choice of at level 2, 5, 10), if they took a Dragonmark they would would get Focus at 2, Lesser at 5, Greater at 10 and Capstone at 15.

Elven races of all sorts would get Arcane Fluidity 15% at level 1.

Elves would get +2% to hit at level 1, +2% more at 6, +2% more at 12, Nothing is Hidden I at level 5, II at level 10 and III at level 15, they would get Enchantment Lore III at level 10, if they took the Dragonmark of Phiarlan Feat they would get Phiarlan Focus at level 2, Lesser Dragonmark at level 5 and Greater Dragonmark at level 10 and Binding Shadows at level 15.

Drow would get SR 10+level, +2 at level 5, +2 more at level 10 and +2 more at 15 (SSG needs to fix Insightful SR not stacking with racial SR), Nothing is Hidden I at level 5, II at level 10 and III at level 15, they would get Enchantment Lore III at level 10.

Half-Elves would get Improved Recovery +20 at level 1, Improved Dilettante I at level 2, Improved Dilettante II at level 3, Improved Dilettante III at level 6 and Improved Dilettante IV at level 10, if they took the Dragonmark of Lyrander Feat they would get Lyrander Focus at 2, Lesser DM at 5, Greater DM at 10 and Power of the Storm at 15.

Halflings would get Stealthy III and Skillful Thrower at level 1, Halfling Luck +1 to saves at levels 2, 5 and 10 and Master Thrower at level 15, if they took the Dragonmark of Jorasco Feat they would get Jorasco Focus at 2, Lesser DM at 5 and Greater DM at 10.

Dwarves would get Stout III and Dwarven Armor Mastery III at 1, +10 HP at 2, 5 and 10, Dwarven Runes I at 2, II at 5 and III at 10 and Stand Like Stone III at 15, if they took the Dragonmark of Kundarak Feat they would get Kundarak Focus at 2, Lesser DM at 5, Greater DM at 10 and Hands of Stone at 15.

Warforged would get Inscribed Armor III at level 1, choice of Healer's Friend or Mechanist at 2 (would be 1 but the choice is better not made in character creation for smoothness), Improved Fortification I at 2, II at 5 and III at 10 and Improved Body (choice of Adamantine Durability or Mithral Fluidity) at 15.

Basically give the outstanding features of each race to each character and let AP's be spent just on class enhancements, which is where they are mostly spent now. You might have to balance a bit but the above list would not turn into a meta of men and bots.

in a roundabout way this is something I suggested before, except not removing the racial trees. I was thinking more granting the races improvements to their inherent stuff and something similar like in the above Helf that can be given as the character levels. the glaring problem with the dwarf above is that it completely removes the flavor choice of my TYWA Vanguard which would result in having to TR to redo all kinds of feats or spend tons on feat respecs taking a couple weeks before I could play him due to the 3 day timer. the improvements I was thinking was like scaling some of the inherent racial bonuses through to level 20 because a lot of them kind of fall off through the levels or have no real affect after low levels. this could make the races tough choices in building characters and more thought into which race would be a good fit for whatever class the player wants to play.

KoobTheProud
02-12-2017, 06:38 AM
I don't expect them to do anything as dramatic as the changes I proposed above but if they did they'd have a mechanism built-in to allow people to switch things up. Not sure a +20 heart would be the way they'd go but they'd think of something to get people out of builds made obsolete by the changes, they always do.