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Gargoyle69
10-15-2016, 07:55 PM
Hi All,

In the Thu live stream, it was mentioned that because the monk pass is bundled with the night revels, and they want night revels out in time for Halloween, they're targeting U33 coming out very soon, probably even this week.

Of course this doesn't preclude further changes post the first update, especially if there are critical bug fixes required, but I think it's fairly safe to say that the time for major changes and many of the things we wished for in this update are now past, and that all that can realistically be hoped for now in the next couple of days are extremely quick turnaround tweaks & fixes.

I thought it might be useful to compile a list in one place of any such low hanging fruit that we can think of that we can petition Steelstar to take a look at if possible.

Please don't post here any grand ideas about revamping monk stances, flavourful finishing moves or combos, major changes or fixes to feats or ED's, or anything of that nature, as I believe it is clear that those ships have sailed. So please post any of those things to the many other threads discussing them.

Also if this list is to have any hope of being useful to us (and Steelstar!), please no to-ing & fro-ing about who plays end game or knows what they're talking about etc, let's keep this tight.

I'll start :
* bug fixes for wraps - crit profile and [w] adds, elemental curatives
* ki shout - update to match new intimidate mechanics & cooldown
* DC's - quickest dirtiest bump for class 2 abilities (eg Tainted Creatures strikes, henshin attacks, QP)
* pure monk - incentive to stay pure in line with other class passes (simple buffs to 12 & 18 cores?)

Ok, that's my list, what's yours?

-----------------------------------------------------

Edit: consolidated list including replies:


bug fixes for wraps - crit profile and [w] adds, elemental curatives - UPDATE here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/479777-Update-33-on-Lamannia-Preview-2?p=5884939&viewfull=1#post5884939): most of these fixed internally, remainder hopefully in time for U33
ki shout - update to match new intimidate mechanics & cooldown - UPDATE in post #9 below: Probably not for U33. Possibly in a later patch.
DC's - quickest dirtiest bump for class 2 abilities (eg Tainted Creatures strikes, henshin attacks, QP) - UPDATE here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/479777-Update-33-on-Lamannia-Preview-2?p=5884939&viewfull=1#post5884939): Shintao attacks will add Stunning DC's, others being looked at hopefully in time for U33
pure monk - incentive to stay pure in line with other class passes (simple buffs to 12 & 18 cores?) - UPDATE in post #9 below: All of the Core 20s have gotten some improvements in this pass (even if it is just a boost from +2 to +4), along with several of the other Cores. Can't promise anything else on that level at the moment right now, sorry.
henshin - damage improvements / scaling (force and light damage, x3 melee power of abilities in cores, candle enhancement) - UPDATE in post #9 below: Not adding any new Force or Light damage here. Might push up the Melee Power scaling of the core SLAs, but so far I haven't seen much in the way of "I tried this on Lamannia, here's my damage numbers". Candle will scale with Melee Power, but much higher than 1.0 would be too strong for where it is in the tree.
Whirlwind Attack - UPDATE here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/479777-Update-33-on-Lamannia-Preview-2?p=5885763&viewfull=1#post5885763): For U33, the first hit will act like the Weapon version does, but I've added back in the second hit (for Centered characters that are wielding Handwraps and have Monk animations, as before), which does benefit from Doublestrike/Off-Hand Attack chance. It's not 100% of where it was, but it's closer.
Thrown crit multiplier - UPDATE here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/479777-Update-33-on-Lamannia-Preview-2?p=5884939&viewfull=1#post5884939): not going to make U33 but hope to look at afterwards
Some additional defenses for monks, whether for the class or in the trees. Maybe just change the class bonus AC to PRR. - UPDATE in post #9 below: All Monks have access to significantly more PRR than before in this pass as it stands.
Make handwraps not take damage. - UPDATE in post #9 below: Not going to make U33, needs some special snowflake stuff and will need to discuss how/if it is possible in the future. In lieu of that, I've more than doubled the Hardness and Durability of all Handwraps.
(Before it is asked: No, Quarterstaves aren't getting the same in this pass, sorry.)

BigErkyKid
10-15-2016, 08:01 PM
Hi All,

In the Thu live stream, it was mentioned that because the monk pass is bundled with the night revels, and they want night revels out in time for Halloween, they're targeting U33 coming out very soon, probably even this week.

Of course this doesn't preclude further changes post the first update, especially if there are critical bug fixes required, but I think it's fairly safe to say that the time for major changes and many of the things we wished for in this update are now past, and that all that can realistically be hoped for now in the next couple of days are extremely quick turnaround tweaks & fixes.

I thought it might be useful to compile a list in one place of any such low hanging fruit that we can think of that we can petition Steelstar to take a look at if possible.

Please don't post here any grand ideas about revamping monk stances, flavourful finishing moves or combos, major changes or fixes to feats or ED's, or anything of that nature, as I believe it is clear that those ships have sailed. So please post any of those things to the many other threads discussing them.

Also if this list is to have any hope of being useful to us (and Steelstar!), please no to-ing & fro-ing about who plays end game or knows what they're talking about etc, let's keep this tight.

I'll start :
* bug fixes for wraps - crit profile and [w] adds, elemental curatives
* ki shout - update to match new intimidate mechanics & cooldown
* DC's - quickest dirtiest bump for class 2 abilities (eg Tainted Creatures strikes, henshin attacks, QP)
* pure monk - incentive to stay pure in line with other class passes (simple buffs to 12 & 18 cores?)

Ok, that's my list, what's yours?

Good idea!

- henshin: force and light damage, wis to damage with q staff, x3 melee power of abilities in cores, same for candle enhancement.

If it goes live without more changes it will be a huge disappointment.

Gargoyle69
10-15-2016, 10:51 PM
Good idea!

- henshin: force and light damage, wis to damage with q staff, x3 melee power of abilities in cores, same for candle enhancement.

If it goes live without more changes it will be a huge disappointment.

Agree Henshin needs more luvin'. Wis to dmg is out for now, as that's coming in a universal tree like HA. But different type of dmg or better scaling is probably exactly the sort of thing for this list.

I'll update the OP to add as people post.

Also, if Steelstar is able to respond, I'll update the status of each item as he indicates it's addressed, not going to happen, etc etc.

Edit: Steelstar has addressed some items in another thread, I've updated and linked in the OP (thanks Steelstar!)

BigErkyKid
10-16-2016, 04:40 AM
Agree Henshin needs more luvin'. Wis to dmg is out for now, as that's coming in a universal tree like HA. But different type of dmg or better scaling is probably exactly the sort of thing for this list.

I'll update the OP to add as people post.

Also, if Steelstar is able to respond, I'll update the status of each item as he indicates it's addressed, not going to happen, etc etc.

Edit: Steelstar has addressed some items in another thread, I've updated and linked in the OP (thanks Steelstar!)

Has anyone managed to get replies on henshin? I have seen steelstar say some stuff about wraps, but so far haven't managed to find anything about henshin. I have run some numbers on the potential damage output of cauldron, incinerating wave, and ki bolt. It is abysmally low, heroic worthy at best. Am I doing something wrong? Have the devs completely abandoned the idea of making henshin viable?

ZzpxpzZ
10-16-2016, 12:27 PM
While I would definitely not complain about bumps to the incentives to stay pure by boosts to 12 and 18 cores, I would say that compared to almost any other class, monks are innately more incentivized to stay pure.

As far as the things I am most concerned about:

- We need some additional defenses for monks, whether for the class or in the trees, especially if we are being encouraged to not be using earth stance. Monks already were supposed to have some innate defenses to offset the cloth wearing by their bonus AC, but AC has been largely rendered obsolete. Maybe just change the class bonus AC to PRR.

- Please, please, please make handwraps not take damage.

Gargoyle69
10-16-2016, 04:46 PM
While I would definitely not complain about bumps to the incentives to stay pure by boosts to 12 and 18 cores, I would say that compared to almost any other class, monks are innately more incentivized to stay pure.

As far as the things I am most concerned about:

- We need some additional defenses for monks, whether for the class or in the trees, especially if we are being encouraged to not be using earth stance. Monks already were supposed to have some innate defenses to offset the cloth wearing by their bonus AC, but AC has been largely rendered obsolete. Maybe just change the class bonus AC to PRR.

- Please, please, please make handwraps not take damage.

Added your two requests to the OP.

I'm pretty sure I've seen Steelstar say that he's taking a look at the durability of wraps somewhere but can't seem to find the reference. I'll take a look later to see if I can track it down to add a link to the OP (might have been said in the live stream).

Gargoyle69
10-17-2016, 03:48 AM
Shameless bump. Likely last chance today / tomorrow - any more items people would add to the list we can petition Steelstar to take a look at / comment upon ?

Gargoyle69
10-17-2016, 08:12 AM
And Steel, could you advise on any of the above please ?

Steelstar
10-17-2016, 08:59 AM
Quick answers because I'm a bit behind the d20 today. You've already found a few in other places.

ki shout - update to match new intimidate mechanics & cooldown



Probably not for U33. Possibly in a later patch.



pure monk - incentive to stay pure in line with other class passes (simple buffs to 12 & 18 cores?)


All of the Core 20s have gotten some improvements in this pass (even if it is just a boost from +2 to +4), along with several of the other Cores. Can't promise anything else on that level at the moment right now, sorry.



henshin - damage improvements / scaling (force and light damage, x3 melee power of abilities in cores, candle enhancement)



Not adding any new Force or Light damage here. Might push up the Melee Power scaling of the core SLAs, but so far I haven't seen much in the way of "I tried this on Lamannia, here's my damage numbers". Candle will scale with Melee Power, but much higher than 1.0 would be too strong for where it is in the tree.


Some additional defenses for monks, whether for the class or in the trees. Maybe just change the class bonus AC to PRR.



All Monks have access to significantly more PRR than before in this pass as it stands.


Make handwraps not take damage.



Not going to make U33, needs some special snowflake stuff and will need to discuss how/if it is possible in the future. In lieu of that, I've more than doubled the Hardness and Durability of all Handwraps.

(Before it is asked: No, Quarterstaves aren't getting the same in this pass, sorry.)

BigErkyKid
10-17-2016, 09:13 AM
henshin - damage improvements / scaling (force and light damage, x3 melee power of abilities in cores, candle enhancement)


Not adding any new Force or Light damage here. Might push up the Melee Power scaling of the core SLAs, but so far I haven't seen much in the way of "I tried this on Lamannia, here's my damage numbers". Candle will scale with Melee Power, but much higher than 1.0 would be too strong for where it is in the tree.



You need to look a bit more or ask the question directly, people have been reporting poor damage, bad targeting and so on for Henshin mystic, including in lama. Personally I am of the believe that I don't need to test in lama the DPS of an ability that works according to description.

What damage numbers do you have in mind for the core abilities?

Might help, because right now we are seeing big disparities between what is called functional and what people report.

Sorry but henshin mystic is not yet functional, everyone agrees on that. Cauldron of fire is super clunky, weak and very limited in use, focus is NEVER used, the tier 5 light ability is very weak. Ki bolt debuffs a pitiful amount (compare to the passive auras of menace), does little damage. Incinerating wave is extremely low damage. All of them target reflex and don't have DCs that scale well.

As a general comment, I feel that lamania could use a bit of a more organized discussion. A lot of people (myself included) have stopped reporting kobold beatdowns and what not because we don't even know if you use that information. I feel you guys are in a rush to get things out and just don't test everything. I don't like that, but if that's the case, please direct us to the things you want us to test. Something like what's the best damage you could get with an incinerating wave, or whats the top PRR you can achieve in a monk, and what not. I feel this would give YOU (the devs) a better grasp at the impact of the changes you propose.

I think it is understood by everyone that you spent the vast majority of the time fixing wraps, and just glanced through the trees as an afterthought.

PS - From someone who spent some time looking over the henshin changes, this sums up my feelings


the henshin's overhaul looked like somebody glanced over the tree and added melee power and reduced the cost of a few things. Nothing else. The worst tree in the game received the worst class pass in the game.

moo_cow
10-17-2016, 11:04 AM
All of the Core 20s have gotten some improvements in this pass (even if it is just a boost from +2 to +4), along with several of the other Cores. Can't promise anything else on that level at the moment right now, sorry.


2 to 4 in shintao tree. My god, everyone switch back to pure monk. We have 1 dc to look forward to. Did you not work on or see any of the other class passes? They had useful capstones. This capstone flat out sucks.

lostgunman
10-17-2016, 11:30 AM
You need to look a bit more or ask the question directly, people have been reporting poor damage, bad targeting and so on for Henshin mystic, including in lama. Personally I am of the believe that I don't need to test in lama the DPS of an ability that works according to description.

What damage numbers do you have in mind for the core abilities?

Might help, because right now we are seeing big disparities between what is called functional and what people report.

Sorry but henshin mystic is not yet functional, everyone agrees on that. Cauldron of fire is super clunky, weak and very limited in use, focus is NEVER used, the tier 5 light ability is very weak. Ki bolt debuffs a pitiful amount (compare to the passive auras of menace), does little damage. Incinerating wave is extremely low damage. All of them target reflex and don't have DCs that scale well.

As a general comment, I feel that lamania could use a bit of a more organized discussion. A lot of people (myself included) have stopped reporting kobold beatdowns and what not because we don't even know if you use that information. I feel you guys are in a rush to get things out and just don't test everything. I don't like that, but if that's the case, please direct us to the things you want us to test. Something like what's the best damage you could get with an incinerating wave, or whats the top PRR you can achieve in a monk, and what not. I feel this would give YOU (the devs) a better grasp at the impact of the changes you propose.

I think it is understood by everyone that you spent the vast majority of the time fixing wraps, and just glanced through the trees as an afterthought.

PS - From someone who spent some time looking over the henshin changes, this sums up my feelings



Yea, spend 2 full days on Lammania. One right after the it was turned back on with the borked handwraps. One after the update on the ?14th? STILL noticed how the pass barely did anything useful. Henshin is useful ONLY for the passive melee power...everything else is VERY sub-par. Cauldron is just FAR too little damage. DCs are just not on par with other classes and no real way to buff them outside raising wisdom. We need better DEV input on what needs testing the most. I really like helping out but with only the basics of bug reporting to work with we can only do so much. U33 releasing this week is scary. The Monk pass isn't ready at ALL. Just release the rest and hold Monk til Patch 1 giving us a few weeks to hammer out all the problems and for you devs to read the input and make the necessary changes.

BigErkyKid
10-17-2016, 12:42 PM
Yea, spend 2 full days on Lammania. One right after the it was turned back on with the borked handwraps. One after the update on the ?14th? STILL noticed how the pass barely did anything useful. Henshin is useful ONLY for the passive melee power...everything else is VERY sub-par. Cauldron is just FAR too little damage. DCs are just not on par with other classes and no real way to buff them outside raising wisdom. We need better DEV input on what needs testing the most. I really like helping out but with only the basics of bug reporting to work with we can only do so much. U33 releasing this week is scary. The Monk pass isn't ready at ALL. Just release the rest and hold Monk til Patch 1 giving us a few weeks to hammer out all the problems and for you devs to read the input and make the necessary changes.

I agree. Was the damage of the henshin abilities, in your experience, more or less what I computed above?

Listen, I'd love to do this right, but clearly there isn't time. They say they patch things up afterwards but we know that typically those are small changes, if any at all.

So please do give you detailed experience on the damage, the DCs, the targeting and what not. If you don't, get ready for having henshin be a steaming pile of crab.

Zebedar
10-17-2016, 04:14 PM
quick answers because i'm a bit behind the d20 today. You've already found a few in other places.

ki shout - update to match new intimidate mechanics & cooldown



probably not for u33. Possibly in a later patch.



pure monk - incentive to stay pure in line with other class passes (simple buffs to 12 & 18 cores?)


all of the core 20s have gotten some improvements in this pass (even if it is just a boost from +2 to +4), along with several of the other cores. Can't promise anything else on that level at the moment right now, sorry.



henshin - damage improvements / scaling (force and light damage, x3 melee power of abilities in cores, candle enhancement)



not adding any new force or light damage here. Might push up the melee power scaling of the core slas, but so far i haven't seen much in the way of "i tried this on lamannia, here's my damage numbers". Candle will scale with melee power, but much higher than 1.0 would be too strong for where it is in the tree.


some additional defenses for monks, whether for the class or in the trees. Maybe just change the class bonus ac to prr.



all monks have access to significantly more prr than before in this pass as it stands.


make handwraps not take damage.



not going to make u33, needs some special snowflake stuff and will need to discuss how/if it is possible in the future. In lieu of that, i've more than doubled the hardness and durability of all handwraps.

(before it is asked: No, quarterstaves aren't getting the same in this pass, sorry.)






what about the crit bug for the ninja capstone? Why are you avoiding addressing this way? It's a bloody capstone ability steel! players deserve to have a working one or at least a expectation of it being fixed!

Do you think ignoring the problem will make us all forget it? That didn't work for swashbucklers.

Gargoyle69
10-17-2016, 05:50 PM
Quick answers because I'm a bit behind the d20 today. You've already found a few in other places.

Then honest thanks for making the time for the update. Not sure if you realise how much difference it makes, but it's a lot.

OP updated with details of the responses.

Blivit
10-17-2016, 06:44 PM
Some additional defenses for monks, whether for the class or in the trees. Maybe just change the class bonus AC to PRR.


All Monks have access to significantly more PRR than before in this pass as it stands.



Where is the new access to significantly more PRR than before? From the release notes, I just see that Iron Skin now works with all stances. That's the same PRR as before for people who were already using Earth stance. It has also been made cheaper (*very* good, but still does not increase the PRR available, since I had already taken it 3x). Did I miss new or increased sources of PRR in the release notes?

Gargoyle69
10-17-2016, 08:17 PM
I'm pretty sure it didn't make it into the release notes but in Preview #2 on Lamannia, there was +3 PRR added into each of the Henshin cores, along with the already added 10 Melee Power.

I don't really agree that adding the PRR to the caster tree was the best way to achieve it, but they wanted to make Henshin more attractive and monks more survivable, so I guess it kinda killed two birds with one stone ?

Net result though is that if it goes live, every core in Henshin will now give +10 MP and +3 PRR which means everyone will want to take them to buff their non-Henshin builds.

Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that Henshin builds will be viable yet, although Steelstar hasn't ruled out further changes to Henshin if testing shows they are still performing poorly.

Ovrad
10-17-2016, 10:37 PM
All Monks have access to significantly more PRR than before in this pass as it stands.

Uh? Did something not make it to the release notes? The only change I saw is that bonus from Iron skin is applied in non-earth stance. This is not an increase, everyone was using earth stance for melee before and the PRR was pretty low even then.

Don't get me wrong, it's a good change, but it doesn't significantly gives more PRR, or any at all.

Gargoyle69
10-17-2016, 11:18 PM
See post above yours :-)

MeliCat
10-18-2016, 03:45 PM
Not adding any new Force or Light damage here. Might push up the Melee Power scaling of the core SLAs, but so far I haven't seen much in the way of "I tried this on Lamannia, here's my damage numbers". Candle will scale with Melee Power, but much higher than 1.0 would be too strong for where it is in the tree.

...

All Monks have access to significantly more PRR than before in this pass as it stands.





Oh! Oh excellent. I'll drag my monk out and give it another go then. Thanks Steel!

/pulls out the character planner again ....

Qezuzu
10-18-2016, 07:05 PM
pure monk - incentive to stay pure in line with other class passes (simple buffs to 12 & 18 cores?)


All of the Core 20s have gotten some improvements in this pass (even if it is just a boost from +2 to +4), along with several of the other Cores. Can't promise anything else on that level at the moment right now, sorry.



You've only done enough to technically say you have "improved" the capstones. +2 WIS is not a large incentive to remain pure.

The Shintao capstone's only meaningful bonus is removing some debuffs from a tier 5 ability that frankly shouldn't be there to begin with.


Some additional defenses for monks, whether for the class or in the trees. Maybe just change the class bonus AC to PRR.



All Monks have access to significantly more PRR than before in this pass as it stands.



Is there something I missed in the release notes? As far as I can tell you've only lowered the cost of Iron Skin and allowed it to be used in all stances.

I'm starting to feel that monks will need a second pass in another update, or that this pass should just be pushed back..

Gargoyle69
10-19-2016, 07:37 AM
You've only done enough to technically say you have "improved" the capstones. +2 WIS is not a large incentive to remain pure.

The Shintao capstone's only meaningful bonus is removing some debuffs from a tier 5 ability that frankly shouldn't be there to begin with.

Agreed.


Is there something I missed in the release notes? As far as I can tell you've only lowered the cost of Iron Skin and allowed it to be used in all stances.

3 PRR added to each Henshin Cores (was in the Preview #2, but didn't make the release notes).


I'm starting to feel that monks will need a second pass in another update, or that this pass should just be pushed back..

This would be great but doubt it has any chance of happening.

BigErkyKid
10-19-2016, 08:20 AM
This would be great but doubt it has any chance of happening.

Super sloppy update. I mean the majority of monks abilities are not even upgraded. Now the DPS with wraps will be substantially higher, but I didn't play monks for straight up DPS.

I am sure I (and everyone) can build a monk with high to be missed chances and decent PRR. Monk is the easiest class to get to good ACs without investing a ton of gear. With stat inflation I am sure there are out there mid to high 200 ACs monks, with around 180-200 PRR without going all nuts on twists and what not.

Since I could solo with relative ease LEs quests before the DPS increases, I am sure it will be easier now. But still, most monk abilities do low damage, finishers are outdated. So it is just kind of an aesthetic thing, the being monk. It is just an OK DPS class with several immunities and with good defenses.

HPs are a weak point, so I doubt they can make decent reaper tanks. DPS is higher in other classes. So what does the monk really bring?

Meh, meh, meh!

A good monk update with have listed ALL the abilities, like you did, and post pre and post DCs, damage, cool downs. Then we could talk about comparing PRR and DPS tests, and some gameplay tests in lama to fine tune it. Now in 2 days that's not going to happen, and post past updates are always super heavy handed. I had my main (and by now only) toon pending of reincarnation for this monk update but now I will just roll into a fighter. I have zero interest in broken monks.

Sam-u-r-eye
10-27-2016, 09:54 AM
miswrite