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PeterE
08-22-2016, 11:56 AM
So I was following the old Dynamic Hand build from the paths revisited thread on the forums that only has half the builds done and hasn't been updated in over 4 years and it uses 4 metamagics but having them on my spells cost so much that after about 15ish spells i'm out of spell points which makes soloing impossible since I lose the ability to do dmg.

Turning the metamagics off the spells don't do enough dmg and I have to cast more spells which basically adds up to the same issue as having the metamagics on.

Are sorcs just not meant to solo so they can do nothing except on big packs of enemies?

dunklezhan
08-22-2016, 12:10 PM
So I was following the old Dynamic Hand build from the paths revisited thread on the forums that only has half the builds done and hasn't been updated in over 4 years and it uses 4 metamagics but having them on my spells cost so much that after about 15ish spells i'm out of spell points which makes soloing impossible since I lose the ability to do dmg.

Turning the metamagics off the spells don't do enough dmg and I have to cast more spells which basically adds up to the same issue as having the metamagics on.

Are sorcs just not meant to solo so they can do nothing except on big packs of enemies?

Don't toggle on the feats entirely. Leave them toggled off and set them directly on the spells you want by right clicking the spell on your hotbar.

Don't set quicken on spells that have a fast cast time, because you're a sorc and cast fast anyway, so mostly its a waste of SP.

What you can do (and what I do) is drag out, say, scorching ray, and then drag it out again and put it in a different hotbar slot, usually underneath the first one. Now right click the second one and switch on any meta magics you want on it from there. Use the one without metamagics for normal use, and switch to the big guns when you need lots of DPS really fast. This lets you have fast access to a big boom emergency nuke without having to keep maximise or empower on all the time.

Learn to make use of the really low cost sorc spells like scorching ray, acid arrow, electric loop, magic missile - wear or swap on appropriate spellpower gear - because they're really low cost SP, and dish out good single target damage for the cost. Ideally try for some crowd control like charms and webs (at least in heroic, unless you build for it and invest feats etc they won't work too well later on).

In very early levels, conventional wisdom has it that you should grab a big 2 hander and use master's touch to lay waste in melee, using your spells for buffs. This works, but its not very sorceror-y, I know. I did fine with scorching rays and acid arrows, once I got L2 spells. At L1-3 burning hands and some melee weapons will probably see you right.

At L8-ish you'll get access to firewall and some other persistent AOE spells like Acid Rain, at which point its time to switch tactic. These persistent spells will become your primary solo DPS: learn to cast them and kite mobs back and forth, its very very efficient on spell points without bothering with metamagics. Just not necessarily fast.

All advice above applies to heroics. Never played my sorc in epics.

PeterE
08-22-2016, 12:21 PM
Don't toggle on the feats entirely. Leave them toggled off and set them directly on the spells you want by right clicking the spell on your hotbar.

Don't set quicken on spells that have a fast cast time, because you're a sorc and cast fast anyway, so mostly its a waste of SP.

What you can do (and what I do) is drag out, say, scorching ray, and then drag it out again and put it in a different hotbar slot, usually underneath the first one. Now right click the second one and switch on any meta magics you want on it from there. Use the one without metamagics for normal use, and switch to the big guns when you need lots of DPS really fast. This lets you have fast access to a big boom emergency nuke without having to keep maximise or empower on all the time.

Learn to make use of the really low cost sorc spells like scorching ray, acid arrow, electric loop, magic missile - wear or swap on appropriate spellpower gear - because they're really low cost SP, and dish out good single target damage for the cost. Ideally try for some crowd control like charms and webs (at least in heroic, unless you build for it and invest feats etc they won't work too well later on).

In very early levels, conventional wisdom has it that you should grab a big 2 hander and use master's touch to lay waste in melee, using your spells for buffs. This works, but its not very sorceror-y, I know. I did fine with scorching rays and acid arrows, once I got L2 spells. At L1-3 burning hands and some melee weapons will probably see you right.

At L8-ish you'll get access to firewall and some other persistent AOE spells like Acid Rain, at which point its time to switch tactic. These persistent spells will become your primary solo DPS: learn to cast them and kite mobs back and forth, its very very efficient on spell points without bothering with metamagics. Just not necessarily fast.

All advice above applies to heroics. Never played my sorc in epics.

Ahh ty I had no idea of that right clicking on the spell to change the metamagic per spell lol

unbongwah
08-22-2016, 01:53 PM
For a build index which is actually useful, go to ED37's Repository (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/470423-Build-Repository).

UurlockYgmeov
08-22-2016, 02:20 PM
they have anonymous groups for this: just search for KoolAidAddictsAnonymous and MPA (mana pot (addicts) anonymous) :P :p:cool:

Tilomere
08-22-2016, 03:18 PM
Don't think builds. Think rotations of what you will actually be doing in game. Then make those rotations good.

I would personally just use the super simple sorc build. It uses around 6 mana /sec in heroics, and less in epics.

ValariusK
08-22-2016, 03:21 PM
Here's the thing. Even using mostly SLAs, a lot of adventures you're going to have grave difficulty killing everything one by one. What you need to do is gather as much as you can comfortably handle (displacement helps here a lot), and then burn it down with AEs. Skip some of it with invisibility.

Eth
08-24-2016, 09:35 AM
Spellpower increasing metamagics are just plain bad in terms of spellpoint efficiency.

All heavy evocation nuking spells are in the range of 15-25 SP base (meteor swarm being an exception with 40).

Let's look at empower. Costs 15 additional SP.

What you get is an increase of 75 spellpower.
At cap that is usually only an increase of 7-10% in terms of damage. For an increased cost of 66%-100%.
That's a bad deal.

There are only a few scenarios where metas are useful.
1. SLAs (always, because they are free) or spells with reduced meta cost
2. Clickies that make them cost nothing (noxious embers)
3. You have enough SP to finish the quest or make it to the next shrine anyway

There are ways to reduce meta costs, but even with the reduction the use/cost ratio still remains bad.
The only exception is probably archmage+aov+meridian fragment which can reduce maximise to 1 SP.

Livmo
08-24-2016, 09:44 AM
Spellpower increasing metamagics are just plain bad in terms of spellpoint efficiency.

All heavy evocation nuking spells are in the range of 15-25 SP base (meteor swarm being an exception with 40).

Let's look at empower. Costs 15 additional SP.

What you get is an increase of 75 spellpower.
At cap that is usually only an increase of 7-10% in terms of damage. For an increased cost of 66%-100%.
That's a bad deal.

There are only a few scenarios where metas are useful.
1. SLAs (always, because they are free) or spells with reduced meta cost
2. Clickies that make them cost nothing (noxious embers)
3. You have enough SP to finish the quest or make it to the next shrine anyway

There are ways to reduce meta costs, but even with the reduction the use/cost ratio still remains bad.
The only exception is probably archmage+aov+meridian fragment which can reduce maximise to 1 SP.

Great explanation.

changelingamuck
08-24-2016, 09:51 AM
Ahh ty I had no idea of that right clicking on the spell to change the metamagic per spell lol

I also find it very helpful on all spellcasters to set aside a corner of a hotbar to be devoted to spells that can be cast from echoes of power (http://ddowiki.com/page/Echoes_of_Power) SP. I put spells there that cost 12 or fewer SP and usually that means having all metamagics set to 'off' or, for very cheap spells, having just one metamagic turned on.

Remember you can drag the same spell onto hotbars into multiple different slots and set different metamagic settings for each one. So, you can have multiple different versions of the same spell in various spots that just differ by their metamagic settings.

When I run out-of-sp, I know exactly where to look on my hotbars because I have that little area prepared specifically to turn to when I run dry.

changelingamuck
08-24-2016, 10:02 AM
Oh, and keep in mind that spell-like abilities (SLA's) do not cost any more spell points to cast with metamagics turned on than they do without them turned on.

So, every SLA on your hotbars should have all of your metamagics set to 'On'.

Enoach
08-24-2016, 10:23 AM
You can check out this post it has some insights that might help you stretch your Spell Points further...

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/476640-Spell-Point-Conservation?p=5841299#post5841299

I know one of the hardest things for new to casters Spell Point management to grasp is what they may be doing unnecessarily that is contributing to their "burning" of spell points. When you examine yourself and realize how often you sent a 500 point Fireball to kill something with not just a little less then 500 hp left but something with a lot less then 500 HP when you had a more appropriate spell to do the job that cost far fewer Spell points.

Back in the day there was a discussion with Clerics and Spell Point use that went over the cost of "Over Healing" and how that contributes to "burning" spell points. The same concepts apply to "Over Killing" mobs.

But I do believe that creating multiple hot bars with different metas hard set will go a long way in reducing the "burnt" spell points and allow you to stretch your spell point use further.

-------
Another aspect is learning your spells and how to use effectively. Such as use of AoE damage spells on groups to maximize the damage output per spell point. Or learning to Trap mobs with Crowd control so that Persistant AoE effects get more "tics" off. This comes with learning just how big a group you can handle without being killed.

jscott457
08-24-2016, 08:46 PM
You are certainly more efficient against packs of enemies, and I would definitely recommend casting without metamagics for single target spells. For example, if you were playing a fire savant at about level 12 and chose to cast scorching ray (I'm going to make a few rough assumptions here)

Base Spell Point Cost: 8
Cost with metamagic feats (no discounts, 25 maximize + 15 empower): 48
Base Damage: (4d3 + 12) * (3 rays) = about 60 damage
Spellpower without metamagic feats: 150
Spellpower with metamagic feats (150 maximize + 75 empower): 375
Damage without metamagics: 60 * (100+150)/100 = 150
Damage without metamagics: 60 * (100 + 375)/100 = 285

Even this way, the spell without metamagics earns 19 damage per mana while with metamagics it only earns 6 per mana. But in addition, the "Fanning the flames" Or equivalent enhancements generate about 1 additional temporary spell point per cast (possibly more on ray or magic missile spells because I've experienced each ray counting as its own spell), making the spell without metamagic feats even more efficient!

Since you are a sorcerer, you can cast multiple of these spells in rapid succession (scorching ray / magic missile / frost lance...) and still end up at less than half the cost of a spell with all metamagic feats on. That being said, as others have mentioned metamagic feats are excellent for SLA abilities, because they do not increase the spell point cost. Hopefully this helps!

Enoach
08-24-2016, 09:38 PM
The efficiency of Metas goes up when it has more damage to spread out. Metas especially Max/Emp etc. are really meant for it has to die really fast or there will be problems type situation. but most like big numbers :)

Blastyswa
08-27-2016, 05:18 AM
So I was following the old Dynamic Hand build from the paths revisited thread on the forums that only has half the builds done and hasn't been updated in over 4 years and it uses 4 metamagics but having them on my spells cost so much that after about 15ish spells i'm out of spell points which makes soloing impossible since I lose the ability to do dmg.

Turning the metamagics off the spells don't do enough dmg and I have to cast more spells which basically adds up to the same issue as having the metamagics on.

Are sorcs just not meant to solo so they can do nothing except on big packs of enemies?

I actually did some damage/sp calculations for every wizard/sorc spell recently for my pure wizard character who was having this same issue. I can post a link to my data collection (Which was just a google spreadsheet with information from DDOwiki) if you want that as well, but here's the single target spells with the highest damage/SP:
(Note: Since these were for personal use mostly, I assumed all spells were cast with quicken with -4 Quickened SP cost and -20% SP cost, because of how I play. The ratios from spell to spell on how effective they are don't change with different metamagics for the most part, but the numbers with them do). This also assumes playing in Magister with 20 sorc/wizard levels, so you might not be as effective with some uncapped spells (Disrupt undead, necrotic ray) before you hit 20. This damage is also base damage, so some spells like disrupt undead, which uses positive spellpower, might hit less for a sorc with only one spellpower focused on; If you're using a Pansophic Circlet and a universal spell lore item, this list is more accurate to your actual damage. These are also averages, because most spells have a range of damage.

1. Eladar's Electric Surge/Niac's Biting Cold After 3 Stacks, 23.7 Damage/SP. These spell have a 7.9 damage efficiency when cast a single time on an enemy if they tick all 7 times, which would put it in 9th place. For enemies with high HP pools, casting these spells when you already have 3 stacks on the enemy is a very high SP efficiency.

2. Disrupt Undead 15.6 Damage/SP. This spell has the benefit of not capping out on caster levels, meaning it will progressively get better from caster levels as you level, unlike spells like magic missile scorching ray, or fireball after a certain level. Since this spell can also only be cast on undead, I enjoy packing it for quick and fast high efficiency damage.

3. Necrotic Ray 15 Damage/SP. This spell also doesn't cap out on caster levels, which is a trend among highest damage/sp spells. Scorching Ray is good for a fire savant who has a lot of spellpower, but the base damage efficiency is 5.5 Damage/SP, putting it well below the top 10. Necrotic Ray is negative damage, so it can't be used against deathwarded enemies or undead, and it also has a fortitude save for half damage; even if enemies are saving all the time though, it's efficiency would still be 7.5, which makes it a preferable ray attack to Scorching Ray efficiency wise. I throw this spell at enemies constantly, and at high levels it can hit thousands and thousands of damage easily in one hit, as well as applying a neg level if you decide to follow it up with an insta-kill or control type spell.

4. Melf's Acid Arrow 10.8 Damage/SP. Note that all the efficiency ratings for overtime's assume full ticks, so if you're casting Arrow every time it's off timer at the same enemy, your damage/sp will be pretty bad. This spell is very solid though, and keeping it up a majority of the time on boss fights make them go easier without having to constantly spam the spell or waste lots of sp. I would advise actually examining the boss while you're casting against it so that you can see your remaining duration's on your DoTs; basically all the DoTs are in the top 10 damage efficiency spells, and they also have the advantage that they hit on their own after the initial cast, freeing you to cast other spells until the DoTs need refreshed.

5. Fire Trap 9.9 Damage/SP. This spell is one that is fairly cheap (8 SP base) and caps out at a high caster level (20), as well as being the only AoE in the top 10 list, making it one of the best spells for single targets as well as a solid AoE attack. The downside is that this spell requires you to cast it in advance and drag enemies into it, so it's best for a less zergy playstyle where you can run backwards a little bit, or for more defense oriented quests.

6. Burning Blood 9.2 Damage/SP. This is another overtime, but can only be used on enemies that have blood to burn, limiting the use of this spell in heavy undead/construct type quests. This spell deals it's damage as fire/acid, so if one or both of those elements are negated the Damage/SP drops significantly.

7. Black Dragon Bolt 8.8 Damage/SP. This is yet another overtime, although it only has a 6 second duration so it requires a lot of recasts on bosses. The damage efficiency is good enough though that it should still be kept up on boss fights, but it will require more intervention than other longer duration overtime spells.

8. Disintegrate 8 Damage/SP. This is a solid spell that can deal damage to basically anything, and deals some pretty high damage/sp. I'd recommend throwing this around quite a bit if your DC's are high enough to land the big damage a majority of the time, but don't make it the cornerstone of your DPS; it's a great spell, and highly effective on damage/SP, but for boss rotations it should only be used when all overtimes are up and fire trap/necrotic ray/disrupt undead are on cooldowns as applicable. When taking down single liches without any other enemies around, I basically just use this and Black Dragon Bolt.

9. Finger of Death 7.6 Damage/SP. If Finger of Death isn't saved against, it'll just kill an enemy. However, on the save, Finger of Death still has relatively efficient damage/SP, especially compared to Phantasmal Killer, and so throwing Finger of Death even if your success rate is pretty bad still isn't a terrible idea.

10. Frost Lance 7.4 Damage/SP. This is another effective consistent single target spell, and I'd give roughly the same advice with it as with Disintegrate; use it, love it, don't cast it 100% of the time but cast it more than lower efficiency single-target spells like scorching ray or magic missiles.

Notable Mention: Lightning Bolt barely misses the cut at 7 Average Damage/SP, factoring in a 50% rebound chance, and the fact that it can be cast through multiple enemies make's this spell not only solid against single targets, but also groups/lines of mobs.

Keep in mind that AoE, especially AoE overtime, spells can have much higher Damage/SP rates than any of these spells if used correctly. It's a very good idea to cast spells like Ice Storm/Wall of Fire and pull enemies into those spells, possibly then holding them there with web/Otto's Sphere. As another tip, Ice Storm has a higher damage efficiency than Firewall (17.4 vs. 13.2) but Firewall+Incendiary Cloud (10.2) is a higher damage efficiency than just ice storm. Some notable AoE spells include Meteor Swarm, Scorch, Delayed Blast Fireball, Delayed Blast Fireball: Instant, Otiluke's Freezing Sphere/Chain Lightning, and burning hands/acid spray/sonic blast. DBF:I has a 7.1 damage/SP against a single target, all the other spells aside from burning hands/acid spray/sonic blast are between 3.9-4.3, and burning hands/acid spray/sonic blast clock in at 3.5 each, making them effective but on the lower end of damage. Avoid using Fireball/Acid Blast outside of SLA form, because at 2.9 damage/SP to each target, they're about 75% of the effectiveness of one of the above spells.

SLA's should also be used a vast majority of the time. SLA spells damage/SP are typically insanely higher than anything on this list, and can be used to engage a majority of non-boss enemies; the spells in this list should be used more for efficient boss fights and efficient high SP enemy fights.

A few spells to steer away from, due to numerical inferiority, include:
1. Magic Missile. Magic Missile is used a lot in Shiradi Spammer builds, and as an SLA for wizards, and in those situations it works great. The actual spell only has a 2.8 Damage/SP efficiency though, putting it even below spells like sonic blast and greater shout, which aren't typically considered high damage spells. If your only goal is to hit a target without hitting any other target in front of him, some of the above overtimes (Excluding acid arrow/black dragon bolt) do higher damage while also hitting just that one target, and a Finger of Death also would do the trick.

2. Shout/Symbol of Flame. Shout is just all around bad for DPS, dealing 1.5 Damage/SP efficiency. Symbol of Flame most people avoid anyway, but if you're setting up a kill-zone with otto's sphere, mindfog, fire trap, incendiary cloud, firewall, etc., it might be tempting to throw in Symbol of Flame to just get as much damage as possible. At 1.9 Damage/SP, I wouldn't recommend doing that.

3. Force Missile. This one is a little iffy at 4.4 damage/SP, which puts it well below our top 10, but yet above terrible damage spells like magic missile or shout. I wouldn't necessarily recommend using this spell as your main DPS, but throwing it at enemies occasionally won't burn all your SP or deal completely terrible DPS, although it also won't be even close to the best attack.

4. Phantasmal Killer with low DC. Finger of Death hits big even on a save; Phantasmal Killer with a low DC usually has all the damage saved against, and if it doesn't it's only 3.2 Damage/SP. Don't use this spell without high DCs.

5. Sunburst. If you're using it just for blinding or against undead, it does ok. Otherwise, 0.84 Damage/SP basically sums up this spells damage potential. Officially takes the spot for worst spell against bosses, excluding things like Disrupt Undead on non undead etc.

6. Polar Ray/Scorching Ray. Polar Ray is at 5.9 Damage/SP and Scorching Ray is at 5.5; these spells are still effective for their damage/time ratio's, but if you're trying to be efficient with SP there's much better alternatives. If you're a cold savant then Polar Ray might be more effective for your build, and if you're trying to build Empyrean Magic or going Shiradi Scorching Ray can be nice, but otherwise they aren't the best options.

7. Snowball Swarm/Electric Loop. at 2.7/2.3 Damage/SP each, I wouldn't recommend casting these in non-SLA form; almost every other AoE spell has higher Damage/SP. Electric Loop does have a daze component if you're trying to disable some enemies, but since it's removed on damage it's a little lackluster.

Sorry about the super long writeup, but I had a lot of information I wanted to put out there. Everyone is of course welcome to their own opinions on what spells to cast, but from a numerical standpoint, these are the do's and dont's of SP conservation.

***Side Note. I don't really use meta's on any spells other than some overtimes and my SLA's, because following these efficiency guidelines I can rapidly and efficiently take out enemies without having to use high cost metamagics, and in fact I commonly can go through entire quests on wizards/sorcerers including unloading a little bit on the end boss without running out of SP. As the (modified) saying goes, play smarter not harder.***

Lonnbeimnech
08-27-2016, 05:28 AM
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzv5f0I0Pz1qbs6ydo1_500.jpg

Six_Gun
08-27-2016, 10:01 AM
Or, just play a Warlock like everyone else has done.