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PsychoBlonde
08-14-2016, 07:39 PM
Or whatever. Do these still have a role in the crafting? I didn't see any.

RD2play
08-14-2016, 07:47 PM
Or whatever. Do these still have a role in the crafting? I didn't see any.

LoL you are right! We should be able to trade these for PEDS or maybe even a stack of collectibles from the adjoining house!

slarden
08-14-2016, 07:54 PM
I checked also and didn't see any. It seems the recipe for bta is always a common collectible x15, uncommon x5, essences and for some bonus items 5 peds.

PsychoBlonde
08-14-2016, 07:57 PM
LoL you are right! We should be able to trade these for PEDS or maybe even a stack of collectibles from the adjoining house!

That's an excellent suggestion. +1

UurlockYgmeov
08-14-2016, 08:05 PM
It was used for DUSK, and I believe (IIRC AFAIK YMMV) that Dusk is still coming... :cool:

Gremmlynn
08-15-2016, 02:01 AM
It was used for DUSK, and I believe (IIRC AFAIK YMMV) that Dusk is still coming... :cool:Yeah, they could still shoehorn those things into static effect shards.

If not, a trade in for PEDs would also be a good idea and allow them to stay in game as a way of farming them, with as many as the new system can use.

dunklezhan
08-15-2016, 06:38 AM
Yeah, they could still shoehorn those things into static effect shards.

If not, a trade in for PEDs would also be a good idea and allow them to stay in game as a way of farming them, with as many as the new system can use.

More things to trade in for PEDs is going to be pretty much essential. Or higher drop rates.

Much though I am dismayed by the quantities of PEDs which will apparently be needed, I'm trying (I'm trying hard) not to be too doomy about it - we don't actually know whether the drop rates of small/medium/large fragments (or other currently rare collectibles) is going to change any due to the new collectible level tiering, do we?

It may be for example that certain rare collectibles appear in multiple tiers rather than just appearing throughout one particular level range - but then count as different rarities depending on what range you're in (e.g. maybe soarwood appears in Tier 1 as very rare, Tier 3 as rare and Tier 5 as... well, not common, but maybe 'less rare').

Would that be a good set up? I'm not sure. But it would be good to find out. Would like to hear more about the collectible tiering in general, actually, and how or if those tiers tie in with what crafting recipes use them in terms of crafting level and recipe tier.

I mean, we don't know which of these is true (if either):




high level play is encouraged over low level play, because more widely useful/desirable recipes require higher crafting level and require higher tier collectibles (which are dungeon level gated)?


Or



hunting collectibles at certain level ranges is encouraged, because the tier of collectible is not as important to higher level recipes as rarity?



I'd prefer the second because it would seem to encourage TRing and thus in theory LFMs across the level ranges, although clearly there's nothing stopping you collectible farming low level quests with high level characters.

In any case, I wonder if any of that was part of the design consideration, and if so, how?

Cantor
08-15-2016, 08:30 AM
LoL you are right! We should be able to trade these for PEDS or maybe even a stack of collectibles from the adjoining house!

I agree, this is a great idea. All of these old bta crafting ingredients should be in the barter for peds or random collectible box. I have quite a few magic broccoli.

IIRC all of these are in packs not f2p, so they are gated and require a quest chain run (except vale ones) so not farm-able too quickly/easily. Seems like a good idea. Also it'd be nice to see peds in saga rewards or even better skill tome trade in.

Nachomammashouse
08-16-2016, 07:23 PM
LoL you are right! We should be able to trade these for PEDS or maybe even a stack of collectibles from the adjoining house!

yes please at least make these exchangeable. Or maybe it's the mystical stuff that should be used for high level recipes instead of newly invented collectibles.

Elfishski
08-16-2016, 08:43 PM
More things to trade in for PEDs is going to be pretty much essential. Or higher drop rates.

Much though I am dismayed by the quantities of PEDs which will apparently be needed, I'm trying (I'm trying hard) not to be too doomy about it - we don't actually know whether the drop rates of small/medium/large fragments (or other currently rare collectibles) is going to change any due to the new collectible level tiering, do we?


Well there's tokens of the twelve to trade in, and a wider variety of tome trade-in options, so I don't think it will be too bad to acquire more PEDs. This gives more of a use for my hundreds of tokens of the twelve - but I appreciate that for others who are newer or TR more aggressively they won't have much of a stock.

I'm hopeful about collectibles being added to new quests now too after being abandoned for so long, not having any collectibles is one of the things that has made many recent quests (especially TOEE) feel so very lifeless, so that's something I'm feeling quite positive about with this new system.

NoWorries
08-17-2016, 10:46 AM
It is planned for at least some of the special collectable ingredients to be used with the non-scaling effects. You won't see this on the next lamannia as what ingredients should go where is still being looked into.

slarden
08-17-2016, 11:15 AM
It is planned for at least some of the special collectable ingredients to be used with the non-scaling effects. You won't see this on the next lamannia as what ingredients should go where is still being looked into.

Thank you for the update. Is there any reason for me to hold on to over 200k syberys and khyber dragonshards? They don't see to have any use in the new crafting.

dunklezhan
08-17-2016, 12:01 PM
Well there's tokens of the twelve to trade in, and a wider variety of tome trade-in options, so I don't think it will be too bad to acquire more PEDs. This gives more of a use for my hundreds of tokens of the twelve - but I appreciate that for others who are newer or TR more aggressively they won't have much of a stock.



I didn't think skill tomes could be used? On live already you can trade in upgrade tomes, so in what way has it expanded?

Either way:

Tokens: epic only. Doesn't help someone who wants gear whilst they level unless they have epic characters to farm tokens with. This is useless for new players.

Tomes: New players don't have these. They don't seem to drop anymore except from daily dice and sagas, and those are skill tomes. Useless to new players without dropping some cash.

Lowest saga is 3BC and sentinels, both paid for packs so again, for the really new player this is essentially a paywall. I have no problem with people paying to support the game, obviously but F2P doesn't work like that. You have to get them in through some kind of free route, then they want more.

PsychoBlonde
08-17-2016, 01:28 PM
You are aware that recipes below level 175 don't use dragonshards, right?

By the time someone has accumulated enough essences to level crafting that far, they're not a "new player" any more.

Ziindarax
08-17-2016, 02:58 PM
It is planned for at least some of the special collectable ingredients to be used with the non-scaling effects. You won't see this on the next lamannia as what ingredients should go where is still being looked into.

Will you be able to do something about addressing the need for so many collectibles for the lowest levels? From what I've been gathering and hearing, it seems that your system rather disfavors new players. :/ I can see needing collectibles for the more powerful stuff, but the weakest, too? I vote no. :)

Elfishski
08-17-2016, 04:22 PM
I didn't think skill tomes could be used? On live already you can trade in upgrade tomes, so in what way has it expanded?

Either way:

Tokens: epic only. Doesn't help someone who wants gear whilst they level unless they have epic characters to farm tokens with. This is useless for new players.

Tomes: New players don't have these. They don't seem to drop anymore except from daily dice and sagas, and those are skill tomes. Useless to new players without dropping some cash.

Lowest saga is 3BC and sentinels, both paid for packs so again, for the really new player this is essentially a paywall. I have no problem with people paying to support the game, obviously but F2P doesn't work like that. You have to get them in through some kind of free route, then they want more.

I read that tomes up to +5 can now be traded in, and maybe other upgrade tomes than just +1 to +2 which I think is all that can be traded on live, not sure? For characters with +5 supreme already, that's not bad.

Yep, absolutely fair comments regarding new players. But overall I think everything about the system and the ingredients needed says that this is intended to be something that players can use after they have a few lives under their belt and are looking for something else to do. If I think back to my first life I certainly had enough content and finding of loot in chests that were upgraded to what meagre stuff I had that I really didn't have any interest in exploring raiding, crafting, special events like crystal cove, etc. Maybe it's okay to not worry too much about the new player experience with cannith crafting? Hopefully there are a few easy low level recipes, so that a new player can get involved and make themselves a ring of water breathing or something without it being a crippling investment, but it probably doesn't have to be suited to a new player doing everything on their first life?

LeoLionxxx
08-17-2016, 05:46 PM
Thank you for the update. Is there any reason for me to hold on to over 200k syberys and khyber dragonshards? They don't see to have any use in the new crafting.

I thought something was missing from the new crafting. Ya, why aren't the orange and purple dragonshards being used any longer?

PsychoBlonde
08-17-2016, 07:18 PM
Hopefully there are a few easy low level recipes, so that a new player can get involved and make themselves a ring of water breathing or something without it being a crippling investment, but it probably doesn't have to be suited to a new player doing everything on their first life?

There are a fair number of accessible recipes--most of the people doing the testing already had established crafters so they didn't spend much time on the easy stuff. I know I didn't look at it all that thoroughly.

I think that Tokens of the Twelve will be the predominant way to get PEDs. I mean, heck, I don't farm them much and I turn them in for hearts all the time and my bank still looks like this:

http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/JMeganSnow/ScreenShot00063_zpsztqkfwck.jpg

Yeah, they're not tradeable, but you can always invite someone to jump in a quest at the end to loot the Epic Chest and pass them your tokens, so it's not IMPOSSIBLE to recompense people this way.

Gremmlynn
08-18-2016, 02:11 AM
Will you be able to do something about addressing the need for so many collectibles for the lowest levels? From what I've been gathering and hearing, it seems that your system rather disfavors new players. :/ I can see needing collectibles for the more powerful stuff, but the weakest, too? I vote no. :)The problem is, that outside of a few static, "non-scaling", effects, the lowest level and highest level shards are the same shards.

PsychoBlonde
08-18-2016, 02:33 AM
The problem is, that outside of a few static, "non-scaling", effects, the lowest level and highest level shards are the same shards.

I think this means lowest-level in terms of the level of crafting you need to be able to make them successfully, not the level of item produced.

PsychoBlonde
08-18-2016, 02:35 AM
I thought something was missing from the new crafting. Ya, why aren't the orange and purple dragonshards being used any longer?

I have no idea, and I get tons of them so having SOMETHING to use them for was kinda nice. I get tired of throwing them out.

Granted, you can sell them for cash now, but STILL.

dunklezhan
08-18-2016, 03:03 AM
I read that tomes up to +5 can now be traded in, and maybe other upgrade tomes than just +1 to +2 which I think is all that can be traded on live, not sure? For characters with +5 supreme already, that's not bad.

Yep, absolutely fair comments regarding new players. But overall I think everything about the system and the ingredients needed says that this is intended to be something that players can use after they have a few lives under their belt and are looking for something else to do. If I think back to my first life I certainly had enough content and finding of loot in chests that were upgraded to what meagre stuff I had that I really didn't have any interest in exploring raiding, crafting, special events like crystal cove, etc. Maybe it's okay to not worry too much about the new player experience with cannith crafting? Hopefully there are a few easy low level recipes, so that a new player can get involved and make themselves a ring of water breathing or something without it being a crippling investment, but it probably doesn't have to be suited to a new player doing everything on their first life?

Ah I see.

I had no idea you couldn't turn in higher than a +2 tome on live, because in 7 years of playing I've never had one drop. Any characters I have with more than a +2 tome got theirs by kind guildie donations or an anniversary event.

Nor have I achieved 5K favour on any of the characters either because I don't enjoy EE - so I don't play it. I can count on the 1750 tome each life, for sure, but, again, new players won't hit that mark until much later on, by which point they don't need the low ML loot anyway. Similarly, I probably have only enough tokens of the twelve for a TR every now and again (that's heroic, not epic TR, I've epic TRd twice, both times using Turbine gifted hearts, I've never managed to stick it out long enough to get 4200 Covs or 42 seeds) - because again I don't enjoy Epic play. Sure, I could switch to playing epic fully just for the ability to store up +5 tomes so that I can spend them on PEBS for other players, but I won't be having fun.

I can farm tokens for them of course, which would be slightly more fun, and I can of course farm tokens easily for my own higher level CC gear but even so - that new player, or existing friend, effectively cannot work towards getting the ingredients for me to make them stuff until they hit epic. if CC is supposed to allow 'stop gap' crafting as per the DDO Cast interview, then its a fail unless NoWorries means 'personal only'.

As it is, a new player can maybe work towards collectibles or buy them from the AH but they cannot buy PEBS or realistically achieve access to somethign they could give to me to trade for PEBS on their behalf - because they're bound, as are most of the ingredients you would trade in for PEBS.

I bought a couple of +2 Supremes in the store early on, and then they brought out supreme +3s and higher and so I felt somewhat gouged and resolved not to buy tomes from the store any more.

So the idea of laying my hands on a +3 or higher tome via gameplay is just hilarious from my perspective - I stopped looking at forum builds years ago because of this.


So, I don't know about new players but I do know that if I didn't already have a high level crafter, the system wouldn't be suitable for me. After 7 years. As it is, I'll personally be fine. I can play epic to get PEBS turn ins, I just currently don't. A new player though?

I've got some new players at the moment, they've been playing less than a year. I've been levelling a character with them in our once a week play session... we're at 22. After a year. Sure, we play once a week for a couple of hours, not every night, but that's the point isn't it: casual players are basically utterly locked out of the ability to get decent loot because lootgen currently is punishingly awful most of the time, and the new CC is inaccessible unless you want to level it yourself for personal gain, whether you enjoy crunching at a crafting station or not. Casuals shouldn't have loot gifted to them but come on.

As I said earlier in this or some other thread: when it comes to crafting unbound loot there's a balance between 'costly' and 'spend a ton of real cash' somewhere, but what we have here isn't it.

To make the simplest item unbound requires:
ML1 shard: 2PEBs
Effect 1 & 2 from the lowest tier: 4PEBs, let's not even try for a 3rd effect.

That's a +2 tome, minimum, in heroic, based on the live turn in rewards where a +1 tome will get you a mighty 4 PEBs. To make L1 loot for a new player! And that's a tome *I* have to be able to take from them, because PEBS are bound.

Where is a L1-10 player supposed to get their hands on that? Where can they even go to try to farm for one?

Bearing in mind they have to get it unbound so that I as the crafter can turn it in for PEBS - so it can't come from the 1750 favour that same player isn't going to get for about another 15 levels anyway. What am I supposed to do, ask them to gift me 1000 TP so I can go buy one from the store for them? Come on.

Honestly, I just don't see how there can be an argument for not providing a predictable* source of PEBS, similar to tokens of the twelve, in heroic levels.


*Predictable. I.e. the incredibly rare small medium and large eberron dragonshards are not the answer.

PsychoBlonde
08-18-2016, 03:17 AM
Sadly those two are connected--I've pulled a large number of tomes between +3 and +6, the trouble is that they were almost always pulled in EE OR while running a loot gem during a bonus weekend.

I still see them every once in a great while and it's always somewhere WEIRD, too, like "eh, let's run Threnal for giggles" "why is there a tome in my end reward? OKAY then."