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CThruTheEgo
07-05-2016, 10:38 AM
Here is a tactical fighter build I've been contemplating. Based on responses I got in this thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/475973-Combat-tactics-Some-questions), a 133 DC dire charge was no fail in LE Shroud while a 123 DC stunning blow and trip wasn't quite no fail. This was based on the firsthand experience of only two posters, however. So if anyone has further firsthand experience to add to this, I'd love to hear about it. [EDIT: See post #13 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/476815-Master-Tactician-A-human-thf-pure-fighter-with-tactics?p=5848425&viewfull=1#post5848425) for further testing in LE Shroud.]

I had a tactics fighter when the level cap was 20 and I want to try one in today's game. I don't intend for this to be a long-term character, just something to try out for a bit. So I'm not going to post full build breakdowns like I usually do, just the key details to get feedback. HP, PRR, MRR, and self-healing should be sufficient for a standard melee.

My goal is as close to no-fail tactics as is reasonably possible without completely gimping the rest of the build. I didn't bother with combat mastery and improved trip because I didn't think another 4 DCs was worth 2 feats. I have a Sword of Shadows, as well as everything to make it epic, that have been sitting around for far too long. So I intend for this build to be a thf to finally put those to good use. Other notable gear is listed below. I'd be interested in other gear suggestions.

As always, any and all feedback is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Build Features:
~120 DC stunning blow and trip
~130 DC dire charge
~16 action boosts

Master Tactician
Fighter 20
True Neutral Human


Stats
. . . . . . . .28pt. . .32pt. . .34pt. . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .----. . .----. . .----. . .---- . . ---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 18 . . . 18 . . . 18 . . . 18. . . .+6. . . .4: STR
Dexterity . . . .8 . . . .8 . . . .8 . . . .8. . . .+6. . . .8: STR
Constitution. . 16 . . . 16 . . . 16 . . . 16. . . .+6. . . 12: STR
Intelligence. . 10 . . . 14 . . . 15 . . . 16. . . .+6. . . 16: STR
Wisdom. . . . . .8 . . . .8 . . . .8 . . . .8. . . .+6. . . 20: STR
Charisma. . . . .8 . . . .8 . . . .8 . . . .8. . . .+6. . . 24: STR
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28: STR

Skills
. . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Intim . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Swim. . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Heal. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 3. 11
Search. . 2. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. . .11
Spot. . . 2. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. . .11
Balance . 2. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. . .11
UMD . . . 2. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. . .11
Tumble. . . . . . . . . . . ½. ½. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .24. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 8. 8. 8. 8. 8. 8


Feats

.1. . . . : Power Attack
.1 Human. : Cleave
.1 Fighter: Two Handed Fighting
.2 Fighter: Weapon Focus: Slashing
.3. . . . : Stunning Blow
.4 Fighter: Great Cleave
.6. . . . : Weapon Specialization: Slashing
.6 Fighter: Improved Two Handed Fighting
.8 Fighter: Improved Critical: Slashing
.9. . . . : Insightful Reflexes
10 Fighter: Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing
12. . . . : Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing
12 Fighter: Greater Two Handed Fighting
14 Fighter: Tactical Mastery
15. . . . : Tactical Combatant
16 Fighter: Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing
18. . . . : Sap
18 Fighter: Tactical Supremacy
20 Fighter: Heavy Armor Champion
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Improved Sunder
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Tactician
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic . : Tactical Training
30 Legend : Scion of: Astral Plane


Enhancements (80 AP)

Kensei (41 AP)
Kensei Focus: Heavy Blades, Spiritual Bond, Strike with No Thought, Power Surge, One Cut, Alacrity
Extra Action Boost III, Weapon Group Specialization
Tactics III, Weapon Group Specialization
Critical Mastery III, Weapon Group Specialization, Shattering Strike I, Strength
Opportunity Attack, Weapon Group Specialization, Strike at the Heart, Strength
Weapon Master, One with the Blade, Keen Edge

Stalwart Defender (25 AP)
Toughness, Stalwart Defense
Durable Defense III, Stalwart Defensive Mastery III
Resilient Defense III, Armor Expertise I, Instinctive Defense III
Strong Defense III, Strength
Tenacious Defense III, Strength

Harper Agent (8 AP)
Agent of Good I
Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness II
Know the Angles III

Human (6 AP)
Damage Boost, Strength
Action Surge: Strength III


Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought
Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost III
Momentum Swing III, Imp. Power Attack
Lay Waste, Critical Damage III, Haste Boost III
(none)
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz

Twists of Fate (26 fate points)
Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)
Primal Scream (Tier 1 Fury)


Notable Gear:
Legendary Pendant of the Warrior's Focus - insight combat mastery 6
Legendary Animated Rope - combat mastery 14
Legendary Knife Toed Boots - quality str 4

Str86: 18 base, 6 tome, 7 levels, 2 kensai, 8 power surge, 2 capstone, 6 strong defense, 2 stalwart defender, 1 human, 3 human action surge, 15 item, 6 insightful, 1 exceptional, 4 quality, 5 primal scream
Int58: 16 base, 6 tome, 8 power surge, 2 capstone, 15 item, 6 insightful, 1 exceptional, 4 quality

DCs:
10 base
3 past life fighter
38 str
12 know the angles
3 kensai
2 capstone
20 fighter tactical feats
6 dreadnaught legendary tactics
2 tactician
4 scion of the astral plane
14 combat mastery
6 insightful combat mastery
120 DC Stunning Blow and Trip
10 dire charge
130 DC Dire Charge

Thrudh
07-05-2016, 11:46 AM
Here is a tactical fighter build I've been contemplating. Based on responses I got in this thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/475973-Combat-tactics-Some-questions), a 133 DC dire charge was no fail in LE Shroud while a 123 DC stunning blow and trip wasn't quite no fail. This was based on the firsthand experience of only two posters, however. So if anyone has further firsthand experience to add to this, I'd love to hear about it.

I have a tactics fighter (but he's 16/4 fighter/rogue) who at level 27 went into LE Tempest Spine

His stunning blow and Improved Trips actually landed almost every time...

And that's before getting the Animated Rope (so I only had a +5 insight Combat Mastery instead of +14), no scion of the astral plane (so there's +4 I lost), and no Kensai capstone (so another +2 gone).

Plus my STR and INT are lower than yours. (By the way, Primal Scream doesn't work with Stalwart Defender, so take +5 off your totals)

I have all the other items and feats and EDs and enhancements you mention (which is a big investment, so I think it's perfectly fair that my DCs are decent even before I completely max out everything).

So my total is probably only around 100-105, instead of 126... I guess the fort saves in LE Shroud are higher... but I was pleasantly surprised to see how well my stuns and trips worked on the Blackguard and Giants in LE Tempest Spine. Oh, I do have Improved Trip which you don't have, so my Trips are 4 DC higher.

I'll try to get an exact breakdown of my STR and INT when I get home...

the_one_dwarfforged
07-06-2016, 04:29 PM
are your gear numbers for str and int theoretical or things you actually have and have slotted comfortably? either way:
why no litany? +4 qint goggles, right...so how are you handling getting a decent seeker? +4qstr...boots i assume, which means cant be worn at the same time as innocents.

i recommend using veriks necklace until youve expended 2 boosts, especially since you arent double dipping. and i would double dip, because i dont think +3 tac dcs is worth 6 ap and the opportunity cost youre paying for it. also, a good death is pretty fkin awesome, im even tempted to use the word invaluable because of just how effective it is against everything. seriously, you need it.

ive considered taking sap as well, and i think le is probably one of the best opportunities for it to be useful in a while, but i just dont think its very good in reality. from my experience, between trip, stun, lay waste, and just having high dps, i dont need another layer of active protection against anything that can be cced in any le quest. and you know there is always going to be someone to undo your sap, because people wont recognize and/or wont care and/or are sloppy and/or are generally inattentive. id take the +9 prr/mrr feat instead.

i think 10% glancing blow damage is a lot to sacrifice for just +2 tac dcs, but if you were going to sacrifice either ptwf or pthf, you made the right choice imo.

i think scion of the astral plane is enough of a dps loss compared to whatever other choice that its not worth +4 tac dcs.

for twists, if you are thinking of le shroud, id suggest going with piercing clarity in your t4 instead, because the extra helpless damage is kinda unnecessary if youre blitzing and 10% more fort bypass before debuffs i think is more helpful against the more important things in the raid (portals and raid bosses).

count_spicoli
07-06-2016, 05:13 PM
. (By the way, Primal Scream doesn't work with Stalwart Defender, so take +5 off your totals)

..

Pop out of stance, primal up, back in stance and voila primaled up

Not sure what the le tempest spine fort saves are but they seem to be possible 10-15 lower than le shroud. My 12ftr/4 rnger/4 pally is auto in TS and not shroud.

slarden
07-06-2016, 06:27 PM
Pop out of stance, primal up, back in stance and voila primaled up

Not sure what the le tempest spine fort saves are but they seem to be possible 10-15 lower than le shroud. My 12ftr/4 rnger/4 pally is auto in TS and not shroud.

LE tempest spine seems to be 90s with some enemies like the giants and rust monsters having higher saves. With a wail or debuff I am still getting the giants.

I want to try out pure fighter so I might use this as a starting point and tweak it. It has much the same goals - just not sure about self healing. I thought I might need divine crusader and possibly a splash for that.

slarden
07-06-2016, 08:31 PM
I have a tactics fighter (but he's 16/4 fighter/rogue) who at level 27 went into LE Tempest Spine

His stunning blow and Improved Trips actually landed almost every time...

And that's before getting the Animated Rope (so I only had a +5 insight Combat Mastery instead of +14), no scion of the astral plane (so there's +4 I lost), and no Kensai capstone (so another +2 gone).

Plus my STR and INT are lower than yours. (By the way, Primal Scream doesn't work with Stalwart Defender, so take +5 off your totals)

I have all the other items and feats and EDs and enhancements you mention (which is a big investment, so I think it's perfectly fair that my DCs are decent even before I completely max out everything).

So my total is probably only around 100-105, instead of 126... I guess the fort saves in LE Shroud are higher... but I was pleasantly surprised to see how well my stuns and trips worked on the Blackguard and Giants in LE Tempest Spine. Oh, I do have Improved Trip which you don't have, so my Trips are 4 DC higher.

I'll try to get an exact breakdown of my STR and INT when I get home...

Are the 4 levels of rogue for no mercy?

vyvy3369
07-06-2016, 10:22 PM
I want to try out pure fighter so I might use this as a starting point and tweak it. It has much the same goals - just not sure about self healing. I thought I might need divine crusader and possibly a splash for that.

Self-healing can be tricky. Cocoon covers a lot but IMO wasn't enough for LE. You can double-twist consecrate to make up some of the difference, but if going fleshy I almost always end up back in divine crusader for the on kill HP too.

The other alternative is BF, which makes self healing easy but costs quite a bit of your AP, a body feat, and depending on build may cost at least 1 heart. Recon at 30 was almost 1500 a shot slotting repair amp and a recon augment.

Not sure what splash would help significantly with healing to be worth it. If you need a SP bar you can always take magical training.

slarden
07-07-2016, 06:23 AM
Self-healing can be tricky. Cocoon covers a lot but IMO wasn't enough for LE. You can double-twist consecrate to make up some of the difference, but if going fleshy I almost always end up back in divine crusader for the on kill HP too.

The other alternative is BF, which makes self healing easy but costs quite a bit of your AP, a body feat, and depending on build may cost at least 1 heart. Recon at 30 was almost 1500 a shot slotting repair amp and a recon augment.

Not sure what splash would help significantly with healing to be worth it. If you need a SP bar you can always take magical training.

Thank you for the feedback. Yeah that is what I was thinking or even Unyielding sentinel if it gets me past one shot range for most things - for the hp bonus and extra heals, but I really hate being in US for the dps loss and the inevitable mockery.

I was also wondering if twf might be the way to go also since realistically this is an LE shroud build (stun stat is overkill for most everything else) and I don't want to jump into a crowd of LE shroud enemies and start cleaving even with dire charge. It will probably be one enemy at a time - stun and kill - and as a plus I max out boss/portal damage that way. Crusade will be really nice for portals and I can stun things as they come out of the portal if they aren't instakilled.

I would probably pass on castigation and no regret since the passive melee power isn't working - which means I can put 5 pts into strength with consecration up to Heavenly presence and also celestial champion which should get me to low 90s strength not counting primal scream which doesn't work with defensive stance on.

This is not a main character so I don't have completionist, any fvs/sorc lifes or great gear. But I am thinking double wielding epic bleeding edge both with +4 mythic bonus and vampire slayer augments might be ok. Devotion and Combustion for the other 2 spots. I definitely need to farm for a bauble and maybe a jibbers though.

I would also use legendary knife toed boots instead of boots of the innocent for the str, seeker , armor piercing and mythic bonus, but curious where cthru is getting his +4 quality bonus with boots of the innocent - I am missing some other gearing option I think.

Vanhooger
07-07-2016, 09:00 AM
Great build. Only thing I would say is I prefer 2wf over 2hf anytime as the current meta of the game, more slots and allow you to put some stat on 2nd handed or more procs.

Is it true that you got nice Aoe but this day even when I'm doing elite shroud, I hardly hit mob as they die before I get in melee range most of the time (at least guild runs) so I focus on high single target dps such like red named/purple.

But in the end it's really personal choice.

Ps: you find sap useful? The only time I took it I had to ditch it as in party was useless. You sap the mob and the guy next to you hit him or there is someone Aoe.

Scion of astral plane I think is overkill for tactics, I do prefer scion of arboera.

Vanhooger
07-07-2016, 09:10 AM
Thank you for the feedback. Yeah that is what I was thinking or even Unyielding sentinel if it gets me past one shot range for most things - for the hp bonus and extra heals, but I really hate being in US for the dps loss and the inevitable mockery.

I was also wondering if twf might be the way to go also since realistically this is an LE shroud build (stun stat is overkill for most everything else) and I don't want to jump into a crowd of LE shroud enemies and start cleaving even with dire charge. It will probably be one enemy at a time - stun and kill - and as a plus I max out boss/portal damage that way. Crusade will be really nice for portals and I can stun things as they come out of the portal if they aren't instakilled.

I would probably pass on castigation and no regret since the passive melee power isn't working - which means I can put 5 pts into strength with consecration up to Heavenly presence and also celestial champion which should get me to low 90s strength not counting primal scream which doesn't work with defensive stance on.

This is not a main character so I don't have completionist, any fvs/sorc lifes or great gear. But I am thinking double wielding epic bleeding edge both with +4 mythic bonus and vampire slayer augments might be ok. Devotion and Combustion for the other 2 spots. I definitely need to farm for a bauble and maybe a jibbers though.

I would also use legendary knife toed boots instead of boots of the innocent for the str, seeker , armor piercing and mythic bonus, but curious where cthru is getting his +4 quality bonus with boots of the innocent - I am missing some other gearing option I think.

I am playing my fighter on LE shroud as a fleshy and I do not have many problem. If you're not going crazy and aggro multuple mobs at same time you will do just fine as twf. I can afford to go 2vs1 or 3vs1 sometimes.
2vs1 is easy. Trip first mob, he will stay down forever then stun second mob.
3vs 1 require my legendary ice to proc.
You can go 3+vs1 with dire charge but you can't kill them all in 6 sec alone :)

Anyway fighter has a lot of cc, trip, stun, dire charge that comes in with the class itself and if you add double legendary ice + balanced attack you hardly got it. I usually got 2nd placement on kill on our legendary elite shroud runs as I can't compete with our PM. Usually I have 1-4 deaths.
Only enemy that can oneshot me is sorjek, can handle 1-2 hit by most mob. Coccoon & silver flame do the rest.
Destiny LD all the time.

CThruTheEgo
07-08-2016, 08:30 AM
Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I'll consider it all and make changes to the OP accordingly.


are your gear numbers for str and int theoretical or things you actually have and have slotted comfortably? either way:
why no litany? +4 qint goggles, right...so how are you handling getting a decent seeker? +4qstr...boots i assume, which means cant be worn at the same time as innocents.

I didn't put nearly as much thought and research into this build as I usually do for my builds, and I don't have a full gear layout, so yes, they are theoretical. I haven't played much since the data center move lag debacle, so I'm a bit out of touch with current gear.


you arent double dipping. and i would double dip

What do you mean by "double dip?"


a good death is pretty fkin awesome, im even tempted to use the word invaluable because of just how effective it is against everything. seriously, you need it.

I'm just not a big fan of those one big attack clickies every 15 seconds or so.


ive considered taking sap as well, and i think le is probably one of the best opportunities for it to be useful in a while, but i just dont think its very good in reality. from my experience, between trip, stun, lay waste, and just having high dps, i dont need another layer of active protection against anything that can be cced in any le quest. and you know there is always going to be someone to undo your sap, because people wont recognize and/or wont care and/or are sloppy and/or are generally inattentive. id take the +9 prr/mrr feat instead.

I'm not sure about sap in today's game either. I had it on my tactics fighter back when the level cap was 20. I didn't use it all the time, but it did come in handy sometimes, mostly when things went wrong and I needed a little extra CC to keep the situation under control. There is a lot of AoE dps nowadays, so I can definitely see it being less than useful. I just thought I'd give it a try and see how useful it is. If I were going to swap it out, I would take heavy armor master for a bit more PRR/MRR.


i think 10% glancing blow damage is a lot to sacrifice for just +2 tac dcs, but if you were going to sacrifice either ptwf or pthf, you made the right choice imo.

i think scion of the astral plane is enough of a dps loss compared to whatever other choice that its not worth +4 tac dcs.

for twists, if you are thinking of le shroud, id suggest going with piercing clarity in your t4 instead, because the extra helpless damage is kinda unnecessary if youre blitzing and 10% more fort bypass before debuffs i think is more helpful against the more important things in the raid (portals and raid bosses).

I intended for this to be a tactics build first and dps second, but you bring up a good point about the lack of synergy for its intended purpose. You really only need tactics DCs that high for LE Shroud, but dps against things that tactics don't work on is probably more important for a melee in there. So there is a lack of synergy between its purpose and function. Tactics would be much more useful in LE Tempest Spine, so maybe it's better to use LE Tempest Spine as the benchmark for tactics and focus more on dps/survivability.

Good suggestions. Thanks dwarfforged.


I was also wondering if twf might be the way to go also since realistically this is an LE shroud build (stun stat is overkill for most everything else) and I don't want to jump into a crowd of LE shroud enemies and start cleaving even with dire charge. It will probably be one enemy at a time - stun and kill - and as a plus I max out boss/portal damage that way.

I agree that twf is the better way to go, but as I said in the OP, I've got an SoS/eSoS that's been sitting in my bank for at least a couple years now. I just want to put them to use. Maybe this isn't the best build to do that with though.


I would also use legendary knife toed boots instead of boots of the innocent for the str, seeker , armor piercing and mythic bonus, but curious where cthru is getting his +4 quality bonus with boots of the innocent - I am missing some other gearing option I think.

If you are missing anything, I don't know what it is. I've been out of the game for a few months so I'm out of touch with current gear. I didn't research this build as much as I usually do.


Ps: you find sap useful? The only time I took it I had to ditch it as in party was useless. You sap the mob and the guy next to you hit him or there is someone Aoe.

See my comment above regarding sap. I'll give it a try and see how useful it is in today's game.


I am playing my fighter on LE shroud as a fleshy and I do not have many problem. If you're not going crazy and aggro multuple mobs at same time you will do just fine as twf. I can afford to go 2vs1 or 3vs1 sometimes.
2vs1 is easy. Trip first mob, he will stay down forever then stun second mob.
3vs 1 require my legendary ice to proc.
You can go 3+vs1 with dire charge but you can't kill them all in 6 sec alone :)

Anyway fighter has a lot of cc, trip, stun, dire charge that comes in with the class itself and if you add double legendary ice + balanced attack you hardly got it. I usually got 2nd placement on kill on our legendary elite shroud runs as I can't compete with our PM. Usually I have 1-4 deaths.
Only enemy that can oneshot me is sorjek, can handle 1-2 hit by most mob. Coccoon & silver flame do the rest.
Destiny LD all the time.

That's basically what I was thinking. CC will add another layer of damage mitigation. Good point about balanced attacks with twf. I might have to go with twf and save my SoS/eSoS for another build.

the_one_dwarfforged
07-08-2016, 02:18 PM
I didn't put nearly as much thought and research into this build as I usually do for my builds, and I don't have a full gear layout, so yes, they are theoretical. I haven't played much since the data center move lag debacle, so I'm a bit out of touch with current gear.

What do you mean by "double dip?"

I'm just not a big fan of those one big attack clickies every 15 seconds or so.

I intended for this to be a tactics build first and dps second, but you bring up a good point about the lack of synergy for its intended purpose. You really only need tactics DCs that high for LE Shroud, but dps against things that tactics don't work on is probably more important for a melee in there. So there is a lack of synergy between its purpose and function. Tactics would be much more useful in LE Tempest Spine, so maybe it's better to use LE Tempest Spine as the benchmark for tactics and focus more on dps/survivability.

I agree that twf is the better way to go, but as I said in the OP, I've got an SoS/eSoS that's been sitting in my bank for at least a couple years now. I just want to put them to use. Maybe this isn't the best build to do that with though.

basically, its not easy to find +15 gear, and its not easy to find +6 insight gear. finding gear/s in order to ahve both AND slotting them is a serious problem. currently im wearing 14 str 12 con bracers. if i can find 15/15 version, great, but what i really need is 15/15/6(?) insightful str version. gl with that, right? in the event i do find bracers equal to or better than mine with insightful str 4 or better, then i could slot int with insightful int on my helm, but again, id have to find that piece. at that point, i suppose i could slot consuming darkness, and swap from mentaus to +4 qint goggles, but then i lose ghostly which is kind of a pain. id probably do it though, i think. point is, i think your gear set up and stat predictions are unrealistic. not necessarily wrong, and of course you might choose to do things quite differently from me, but unrealistic. also the only +4 qstr i know of is boots, so if you are counting that and innocents, your dcs are wrong. +4 qstr ring coming in the next update though.

by double dip, i mean take fighter haste boost and racial damage boost for bosses or whatever, and dreadnaught damage boost for aoe trash clearing and big crit lolz.

you may not be a fan, but agd is 100% worth it, no fkin lie. the ability to on demand end a mob is pretty invaluable imo when incoming damage is really such a concern. plus its a good dps boost against bosses, and if you use it frequently on trash youll tear through them that much quicker. if things were still like they were in ee stormhorns back in the day where there were just too many mobs for this to matter, i could see skipping it. but le is about only a handful of very strong mobs, greatly increasing the value per use of this ability. im just saying, obviously its not game breaking or whatever, but i think if you took it youd notice it. i do.

yea, i get that. however my pathetic stun dc of low 100 something is useful enough to me in le shroud that i dont think its necessary to go balls to the walls on tac dcs. its also not what i really depend on for "i absolutely must cc this thing", thats lay waste, because lay waste just works and is aoe. it kinda sucks that i say that, but i guess ive given up on trying to make stunning blow more important (to me at least) than it really is, and just ended up relying on lay waste, ******** high dps, and ******** high prr (and in my case robot heals) and just killing stuff faster than it can kill me. that said, i still use tactics in le shroud and its very helpful when they land, but i dont rely on them landing in order to be effective or alive. id say the main use for stun is casters, and they seem pretty easy to stun. so i dont think that you need to sacrifice dps if you are going to pack as many of the fighter tac dc feats as you are, because even if your dc dropped to say 115, thats still +75%(?) better odds than me on a d20, so it should be highly reliable with much less sacrifice in other areas.

i think twf or swf is more than likely better single target dps than thf, of course, but i wouldnt go right out and say twf is just better. thf has more synergy with your ideal dire charge. if you are in the thick of things on le, i think the extra reach and aoe of thf is pretty invaluable at keeping you alive, allowing you to hit enemies much more easily while remaining mobile in order to dodge attacks and spells. also, thf can do a nice 18/16/16 stat split, twf has to make a sacrifice somewhere. honestly id consider swf over twf just because it seems to have more single target synergy to me (one cut doesnt apply to offhand, fighters have no additional offhand proc chance or meaningful offhand doublestrike, +30% attack speed means you are gettnig nice extra mileage out of your easily 50%+ doublestrike).

vyvy3369
07-16-2016, 07:03 PM
Here is a tactical fighter build I've been contemplating. Based on responses I got in this thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/475973-Combat-tactics-Some-questions), a 133 DC dire charge was no fail in LE Shroud while a 123 DC stunning blow and trip wasn't quite no fail. This was based on the firsthand experience of only two posters, however. So if anyone has further firsthand experience to add to this, I'd love to hear about it.
Got back to cap again and off Shroud timer and went in on LE to experiment a bit. Unbuffed dire charge was showing 102. With Power Surge and int-stick KtA boosted up to 118. Strength-based, so Stunning Blow should have been 10 points lower.

First pass through I wasn't as careful about pulling as I had intended, and grabbed 4 trogs and 1 orthon. Even when buffs had worn off, trip (not improved trip, regular old trip) was basically a no-fail, and they would stay on the ground for the entire duration. Dire Charge was working very reliably at 118, but I did notice some saves when buffs wore off.

Got SP back, reset, and pulled a single trog. I kept it tripped with PS & KtA up the entire time and kept track of Dire Charge & Stunning Blow attempts - ignoring grazing hits I saw something like 12 dire charge stuns in a row. However, in that time only 1 stunning blow landed.

I would aim for 120 as a good benchmark for Dire Charge, with up to 130 if you want to increase the effectiveness of stunning blow too.

CThruTheEgo
07-17-2016, 12:41 PM
Got back to cap again and off Shroud timer and went in on LE to experiment a bit. Unbuffed dire charge was showing 102. With Power Surge and int-stick KtA boosted up to 118. Strength-based, so Stunning Blow should have been 10 points lower.

First pass through I wasn't as careful about pulling as I had intended, and grabbed 4 trogs and 1 orthon. Even when buffs had worn off, trip (not improved trip, regular old trip) was basically a no-fail, and they would stay on the ground for the entire duration. Dire Charge was working very reliably at 118, but I did notice some saves when buffs wore off.

Got SP back, reset, and pulled a single trog. I kept it tripped with PS & KtA up the entire time and kept track of Dire Charge & Stunning Blow attempts - ignoring grazing hits I saw something like 12 dire charge stuns in a row. However, in that time only 1 stunning blow landed.

I would aim for 120 as a good benchmark for Dire Charge, with up to 130 if you want to increase the effectiveness of stunning blow too.

Awesome. Thanks for testing this. So mobs have much lower str/dex than fort saves, trip DCs are the easiest to reach, dire charge requires standard investment, and stunning blow requires going all out to reach no fail. Good to know. Thanks for taking the time to figure this out and give us an update. I'll +1 ya after I spread some rep around first.

Thunder-Monkey
07-24-2016, 01:48 PM
Hi CThru, thanks for another cool build!

If I wanted to go TWF as discussed above, what would you drop to get the pre-req DEX? I have +3 Dex tome and 36 point builds.

Also, would you consider swapping any feats for the higher-end PRR fighter feats? PRR seems to be a biggy for end-game survival?

TM

CThruTheEgo
07-24-2016, 07:20 PM
If I wanted to go TWF as discussed above, what would you drop to get the pre-req DEX? I have +3 Dex tome and 36 point builds.

If you don't want to delay any of the TWF feats while leveling, then you need to start with 16 dex. You can just dump int and you're down 2 DCs and 2 damage from know the angles. That's probably the best option. You could also go str 18, dex 16, con 14, int 12. This option puts you down 30 hp at level 30 and 1 DC and damage from know the angles.

Alternatively, if you don't mind delaying the TWF feats until the tomes kick in, then you can start with dex as low as 14. This option requires moving feats around, more if you start with 14 dex, less if you start with 15. You'd have to take things like sap, improved sunder, insightful reflexes, or lower versions of the tactical or heavy armor feats at lower levels to fill in the gaps. Personally, I enjoy the leveling process, so I'm not a fan of doing this. But if you're LRing into this build, then it won't matter either way.


Also, would you consider swapping any feats for the higher-end PRR fighter feats? PRR seems to be a biggy for end-game survival?

You could definitely drop sap.

Based on vyvy3369's testing (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/476815-Master-Tactician-A-human-thf-pure-fighter-with-tactics?p=5848425&viewfull=1#post5848425), if you want stunning blow to be viable in LE Shroud, then I would keep DCs maxed as is. But if you don't mind that not being as effective in LE Shroud, but basically no fail everywhere else, then you could drop tactical training and tactical combatant for sure, and even tactical mastery. Dropping all three would still give you a dire charge DC of 124. If you dumped int to build for TWF, then you'd be at 122. And, as mentioned earlier in the thread, because you can't fit all of the gear listed, you'll probably end up around 118-120, which is right around vyvy3369's target DC. Dropping those three feats would allow you to fit in the full line of heavy armor feats.

The only other feat I might consider dropping would be improved sunder, but I wouldn't really consider dropping that since the fort bypass benefits the whole group making it a solid choice for bosses.

Nuclear_Elvis
07-25-2016, 08:55 AM
My suggestions for your Build as proposed in OP:
- Trade Balance for Swim as the #2 priority Skill to raise up.

Swim could be boosted via Gear when/if you need that extra 5-15 in the Skill (aside from Underwater Action/Waterbreathing also being available).

At this point, in the game we have, Swim has become a dumped Skill for most players that can be compensated for in other/gear/UA ways.

Also, depending on how much you are solo vs group play, and play-style, I'm always a fan of UMD being prioritized (I would put it #3 on your list and reduce points elsewhere to ensure UMD makes Stoneskin scrolls, Heal scrolls, etc more capable).

CThruTheEgo
07-25-2016, 09:59 AM
My suggestions for your Build as proposed in OP:
- Trade Balance for Swim as the #2 priority Skill to raise up.

Swim could be boosted via Gear when/if you need that extra 5-15 in the Skill (aside from Underwater Action/Waterbreathing also being available).

At this point, in the game we have, Swim has become a dumped Skill for most players that can be compensated for in other/gear/UA ways.

Also, depending on how much you are solo vs group play, and play-style, I'm always a fan of UMD being prioritized (I would put it #3 on your list and reduce points elsewhere to ensure UMD makes Stoneskin scrolls, Heal scrolls, etc more capable).

The skills are not listed in any particular order. As far as I can tell, EllisDee's planner arranges them automatically.

Regardless, balance and UMD are already maxed out and are maxed throughout the leveling process. The only skill I back loaded was heal because it is not needed until level 20 when you get cocoon.

The build gets plenty of skill points and all the important skills are maxed, so I just dumped them into swim for no reason at all. You can put those points anywhere and it won't make any difference for the build.

Thrudh
07-25-2016, 10:12 AM
Pop out of stance, primal up, back in stance and voila primaled up

They fixed that. Once you go back in stance, all rage affects (including primal) disappear

Thrudh
07-25-2016, 10:15 AM
Are the 4 levels of rogue for no mercy?

Yes, and trap skills. I lose out on the level 18 fighter One-cut enhancement. The trade-off may not be worth it. I'm going to use an old +3 heart to change into an 18/2 fighter/rogue and compare.

But 30% more damage on stunned mobs is nothing to sneeze at. And I really like the utility of full trap skills... With only 2 levels of rogue, it's going to be very tight.

slarden
07-25-2016, 02:08 PM
Yes, and trap skills. I lose out on the level 18 fighter One-cut enhancement. The trade-off may not be worth it. I'm going to use an old +3 heart to change into an 18/2 fighter/rogue and compare.

But 30% more damage on stunned mobs is nothing to sneeze at. And I really like the utility of full trap skills... With only 2 levels of rogue, it's going to be very tight.

makes sense. I was toying with the idea of a centered 12 fighter 4 monk 4 rogue dex twf khopesh build and curious if the no mercies from ninja spy and thief acrobat stacked, but balanced attacks and dire charge are the only ways to make helpless without strength.

One cut is better for bosses and no mercy better for trash - both are good.

vyvy3369
07-25-2016, 05:30 PM
They fixed that. Once you go back in stance, all rage affects (including primal) disappear
It still worked as of last night.

the_one_dwarfforged
07-25-2016, 10:00 PM
My suggestions for your Build as proposed in OP:
- Trade Balance for Swim as the #2 priority Skill to raise up.

Swim could be boosted via Gear when/if you need that extra 5-15 in the Skill (aside from Underwater Action/Waterbreathing also being available).

At this point, in the game we have, Swim has become a dumped Skill for most players that can be compensated for in other/gear/UA ways.


The build gets plenty of skill points and all the important skills are maxed, so I just dumped them into swim for no reason at all. You can put those points anywhere and it won't make any difference for the build.

if you have the skill points, which a pure fighter generally does, swim is actually the best place to put them. once you have umd, repair/heal, balance, intim, and search maxed with a rank in tumble, id say the most effective use of those points is in swim. no, we dont swim much. no, theres no need to swim fast for anything. no, you really do not ever need 5-15 (or 23) extra ranks of the swim skill.

however, when you do go swimming, you will definitely notice those points and thank yourself for having the foresight to choose swim over some other skill that you will not be able to get high enough to benefit you at all, or at least not as noticeably. and items that boost swim ranks stack with class skill ranks, so items just make your previously torturous swimming experiences (toee 2 for example) tolerable.

also, at level 30, its actually almost impossible to drown yourself. even in toee pt2 which has probably one of, if not the, biggest continuous bodies of water we have any reason to venture into, its most likely impossible to drown even if you went the longest possible distance in that water where you werent forced to surface. if you are capable of surfacing and you drown, thats intentional. the only place where an underwater breathing item might be necessary is if you are doing the red puzzle in the twilight forge and either nobody knows it and nobody can wiki it, or you are with people who are incredibly stupid and cant be told what to do. only bringing this up because the "need" for water breathing is just ****ing comical.

CThruTheEgo
07-26-2016, 07:13 AM
when you do go swimming, you will definitely notice those points and thank yourself for having the foresight to choose swim over some other skill that you will not be able to get high enough to benefit you at all, or at least not as noticeably.

Yeah, there's only a handful of quests where you swim, but if you've invested in it, you definitely notice a huge difference. It's a lot of fun to swim faster than you run lol.

HuneyMunster
07-29-2016, 05:54 AM
For Divine Crusader is it worth taking Magical Training instead of Sap and twisting in Endless faith? That way you would also have enough spell points to use consecration.

Magical Training would also be useful for LD using Rejuv and 12 is the min spell points you can have after regeneration of spell points.

Also, are your DC's different now with the item changes?

CThruTheEgo
07-29-2016, 06:19 AM
For Divine Crusader is it worth taking Magical Training instead of Sap and twisting in Endless faith? That way you would also have enough spell points to use consecration.

Magical Training would also be useful for LD using Rejuv and 12 is the min spell points you can have after regeneration of spell points.

Both would be a viable option. If in divine crusader, I probably would want the extra spell points.


Also, are your DC's different now with the item changes?

I didn't follow the changes tbh. How does it work now? Combat mastery stacks with insightful combat mastery stacks with vertigo/stunning/etc.?

HuneyMunster
07-29-2016, 08:01 AM
I didn't follow the changes tbh. How does it work now? Combat mastery stacks with insightful combat mastery stacks with vertigo/stunning/etc.?


I think what was posted here https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477226-Combat-Mastery-fix#post5850331 is correct.



The Warrior's Pendant is Insightful. It always stacked with Boots of the Innocent and other old combat tactic type items. It was new items it didn't stack with because they were incorrectly giving Insightful bonus whether the item was regular (Enhancement) Combat Mastery or Insighful Combat Mastery. Sure, running with an item that had up to +16 (+14 if you were using Rope) on top of the 12-15 from old items was pretty amazing, but also broken. Now Insightful Combat Mastery items - both named and random gen - are back in relevance since the new more highly scaled regular Combat Mastery loot is back the standard Enhancement bonus. I'm personally glad this fix finally came about - it was inevitable and took longer than I thought it would actually.

So, Legendary Animated Rope and Boots of the Innocent don't stack as both are enhancement bonus. Unless, Legendary Animated Rope was changed to insightful then it don't stack with Pendant of the Warrior's Focus.

I don't have Legendary Animated Rope to check if its still enhancement bonus.

CThruTheEgo
07-29-2016, 08:54 AM
I think what was posted here https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/477226-Combat-Mastery-fix#post5850331 is correct.

Thanks for the link.


So, Legendary Animated Rope and Boots of the Innocent don't stack as both are enhancement bonus. Unless, Legendary Animated Rope was changed to insightful then it don't stack with Pendant of the Warrior's Focus.

I don't have Legendary Animated Rope to check if its still enhancement bonus.

So assuming animated rope is an enhancement bonus and the warrior's pendant is insightful, and without knowing what good gear offers specific tactics DCs, that would be a net loss of 6 DCs. But that frees up the boots slot for quality str.