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Wanesa
05-08-2016, 01:55 PM
Hi

I am trying to play sorcerer differently. .. with focus to enchantment and charm. It seems I have no problem with DC, but I have problem with other players in group. They hate charmed mobs :/ Any ideas how to be useful in a party with charming spells?

Ty

Discpsycho
05-08-2016, 02:30 PM
I hate to say it, but you're really going to struggle as an enchanting sorcerer.

Pros:
Huge mana pool with which to debuff and charm mobs, or charm then buff
Shorter cooldowns
Shorter cast times

Cons:
Enhancement lines don't really help enchantment at all, as they're all based on Evocation
Fewer spells means fewer debuffs, charms, and buffs

People don't particularly like charmed mobs. Very TR'ed / knowledgeable / FotM characters will bulldoze through anything except EE (and even then only the high-level EE's) thanks to their ungodly DPS and charming monsters slows down the zerging process because they have to wait for you to dismiss the charm in order to get kill credit.

Summoned / charmed monsters are pretty weak in general. Monster dps is much lower than player dps and their health is much higher, so mob vs. mob battles take forever (eg. in Weapons Shipment when the Warforged Titan battles the Pit Fiend). Even with Augment Summoning / Improved Augment Summoning / ES summon buffs / PA summon buffs / Druid past lives / etc, their damage isn't going to approach a properly-geared player's damage.

If you're dead-set on an Enchantment build, you might try an Spellsinger. If you'd rather use summoned monsters, which is sort of like what charm-focused builds do, I'd try some combination of Druid (oodles of spells), Wizard (PM skelly buffs + casting flexibility), and/or Warlock (ES buffs + survival). Unbongwah and I independently agreed on a 11 Druid / 5 Warlock / 4 Fighter split, which takes ES T5 and druid buffs, has SD for survival and runs in PA or DC for party buffs.


Regarding your actual question, charming is more about when to charm certain mobs vs. other mobs. If you can tag one mob in a group before the fighting begins, they'll pull aggro and give your party a few seconds of risk-free damage. Charming a rogue-like mob will get you more damage, though they'll also die a little faster than a fighter-type mob, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. A fighter-like monster seems like it could be helpful for tanking, but their dps is so low that your party will quickly pull aggro off them. Charming casters is similar to charming rogues, but they'll get more AOE and go down even faster. Archers are probably the worst choice, as they don't deal much damage and aren't as likely to get killed off by one of their buddies.

It's also worth noting that most enchantment spells work off Will saves. I don't know what your DC is so this may or may not be pertinent, but you'll have the easiest time charming enemies with lower or unremarkable Wisdom: melee enemies, non-classed mobs like oozes, and archers (trolls and ogres have particularly bad Will saves, AFAIK). Enemies with higher Wisdom tend to be paladins, shamans, or clerics - pretty much anyone who casts divine spells.

unbongwah
05-08-2016, 05:05 PM
Any ideas how to be useful in a party with charming spells?
Yes: switch from "(Mass) Charm Monster" to "(Mass) Hold Monster." Now instead of creating charmed mobs which party members can't hit (thus p*ssing them off), you create stationary groups of mobs which take +50% dmg from party members, making speed runs thru quests that much faster. :cool: One tactic: lay down a disco ball, kite mobs into it, then drop a mass hold when you have them all in place. Save Charm for when you're soloing and prefer to breeze past mobs.

I'd use a wizard or bard to do this rather than sorc, but if you can make it work, more power to you...

Wanesa
05-09-2016, 02:55 AM
Ty for advice. I wanted to try something different. I have started from level 1 through the ER+TR (and I still have +5 hearth in my backpack :-)

I have chosen sorcerer because:
1) I've got a lot of gears boosting charisma,
2) Bard has max 6 levels of spells and without mass version of the hold monster spell. (-3 for DC)
3) warlock will choose Evocation school because of "phew phew"

so I decided to try to pick sorcerer EK+Harper+Enchantment and... I hope it will be fun at least a bit. Now at level 7

unbongwah
05-09-2016, 08:42 AM
2) Bard has max 6 levels of spells and without mass version of the hold monster spell. (-3 for DC)
You should take a closer look at Spellsinger: if you go Enchantment-specced, you get Mass Hold Monster SLA, +5 Spell Pen, and +5 Enchantment DCs. Downside to bard vs wiz Enchanter is you don't get as many SPs nor DPS spells and you don't get any bonus feats.

Hobgoblin
05-09-2016, 09:36 AM
Yes: switch from "(Mass) Charm Monster" to "(Mass) Hold Monster." Now instead of creating charmed mobs which party members can't hit (thus p*ssing them off), you create stationary groups of mobs which take +50% dmg from party members, making speed runs thru quests that much faster. :cool: One tactic: lay down a disco ball, kite mobs into it, then drop a mass hold when you have them all in place. Save Charm for when you're soloing and prefer to breeze past mobs.

I'd use a wizard or bard to do this rather than sorc, but if you can make it work, more power to you...

often times its more effective to use single target charms then to use mass charm.

u charm one or two then either past them or let the group beat down the rest.

mass hold is sick and fun though!

Eth
05-12-2016, 04:57 AM
Yes: switch from "(Mass) Charm Monster" to "(Mass) Hold Monster."

...and then cast mass charm on the held mobs, once the melees wade in.


In general charming isn't a great tool. Mobs have way to much HP compared to their DPS, to sufficiently kill each other.
Also, on elite difficulty charming only lasts for a couple seconds, so forget about that.
Lastly if you push any feats that increase stats on charmed mobs, be aware that this also raises their saves against the charm (great mechanic, isn't it?).

Wanesa
05-12-2016, 01:25 PM
Currently on heoric levels, charming champions may help much :) They often have increased strenght or damage, but not will save.

Enoach
05-12-2016, 04:13 PM
You will receive lots of negative feedback especially if you spend a lot of time running in PuGs. But you can still enjoy your style of play and reduce the generated hatred to your style (don't take it as a personal attack on you just how this style works with another style)

Now things you can do.

First put the release Charm Feat on a Hotbar where it is quick and easy to access - HotKey it to make it even easier

Second choose the right spell for your group...
If you are running in a high DPS group avoid mass charm/suggestion spells. Instead use single target if you feel you need to charm.

Choose your target. Pick mobs in the back of a pack. with high DPS groups you will see more frontal assaults on packs moving toward the middle (usually used to maximize cleave/360 abilities). So the rear is one of the last to get pummeled but doing this will also create flanking for you party. While most don't think about flank and its benefits in todays game, it is still a benefit to your lower DPS members in the group. This also creates a sandwich effect on the mobs as they are getting hit from front and back.

Also, don't target a mob that a melee has engaged, unless doing so would save them from sure death, such as they are surrounded and taking tons of damage - then get the one on their back not the front.

Third in low DPS groups use mass charms sparingly - try to get the furthest mobs first you do not want all mobs charmed if the goal is to kill all of the mobs.

Fourth in quests like Bar Room Brawl where you will constantly get spawns but the goal is only to kill the boss use of Mass Charm and Mass Suggestion can be a good way to add DPS. In most cases you will not hear complaints in the heroic version of this quest.


Now a word of caution about Epics. While charming will work wonders, in epics these effects don't last as long so you need to be careful.

The bottom line is judge your group first. As an Enchanter effects like holds and dance are good fall backs when the use of charms hampers your group.

Many playstyles don't mesh well with each other, Charming is one of the more visible playstyles and there will always be those that find different playstyles that rub them the wrong way the trick is to recognize that, and make adjustments that work for the group (And that is something that if everyone practiced there would be less animosity)

Jiirix
05-17-2016, 03:47 AM
Just wanted to add: If you have problems with your DC this you should debuff before using mass hold or charm.

- Hypnotism applies a AOE/no save -3 debuff to Will saves for 8 seconds for 10 SP (1SP if AM SLA)
- Scare applies a AOE/no save -2 debuff to all saves for 4 seconds (shaken) for 10 SP
Use Hypno first (longer duration of the debuff), Scare right after hypno and then mass hold/charm. All spells have the same Area of Effect and are way cheaper than Engery Drain (50SP) or Enveration (25 SP) while hitting multiple targets.

If you have trouble with the timing you can use Fear instead of Scare, the duration is better if I remember it right.

Gralhota
05-17-2016, 03:03 PM
Caster DC is DEAD !!!!

Just DUMB SHIRADI works efficiently or wait for some revamp in 2018.

Wanesa
05-21-2016, 09:41 AM
At least it is fun.

Gladewatch outpost defence Elite (at level 8) solo.

http://www.imagehosting.cz/images/screenala.jpg
http://www.imagehosting.cz/images/screenava.jpg

One for my final blow.

Wanesa
05-21-2016, 09:48 AM
Crushing Despair: In addition all targets within the area of effect now suffer a -5 will for 15 seconds regardless of whether a target makes their saving throw.

I guess this is __must_have__ spell

http://ddowiki.com/page/Crushing_Despair

5chinoble
09-29-2016, 09:49 AM
Hi

I am trying to play sorcerer differently. .. with focus to enchantment and charm. It seems I have no problem with DC, but I have problem with other players in group. They hate charmed mobs :/ Any ideas how to be useful in a party with charming spells?

Ty


dont charm... ever

use mass hold

take the feat (cone of cold with freezing effect)

CC for low spell pen = mass hold
CC for high spell pen = web, Burst of Glacial Wrath

use exhalted angel like (twist spell pen and DC) core has +3 DC to all schools, stance has +2 charisma, charge gets another +2 charisma...

and you get wings... and a mass cure

LeadHero5
11-21-2016, 07:10 PM
and hold was much more useful. And in high mob density quests, the charms seem to draw agro from quite a distance. If your not careful, they will pull many more than you expect.

slarden
11-22-2016, 08:48 AM
Caster DC is DEAD !!!!

Just DUMB SHIRADI works efficiently or wait for some revamp in 2018. Completely untrue. DC casting is at a high point compared to the majority of the past 5 years.

The point I was going to mention was that enchant DC is easy enough to hit that a sorc makes a better enchanting-blaster than wizard, warlock or bard because of the superior spell point pool to all plus more enchantment spell choices compared to bard/warlock. All you need is spell focus enchant, heighten, spell pen and greater spell pen at heroic levels as far as enchanting goes. i would then take quicken, empower maximize for the remaining 3 feats. You could also potentially replace spell focus enchantment with spell focus evocation - the only drawback is you lose the legit way to twist 3 enchant dc from magister, but you may not even need that. I am looking at making a sorc soon and will go with bladeforged enchanting blasting - probably with a 2 splash which is yet tbd.

Crushing despair and mind fog are two easy button debuffs for enchantment.

silinteresting
11-22-2016, 10:36 AM
Caster DC is DEAD !!!!

Just DUMB SHIRADI works efficiently or wait for some revamp in 2018.

the only thing dumb here is if you think the above.

dc casting is in a good spot at the moment. i just tr'd out of being a pure spellsinger bard that could mass hold
everything and used burst of glacial wrath to freeze everything. it worked a treat in all content i ran (all elites)
right now i tr'd into a drow sorc to get a higher glaciation count (i want to try for a 1000 before meta's) the
bard only had 770 in draconic. wont be using masshold this life as drow, only way i could get the spell pen to 65
like the bard was to go elf so ill be using burst of glacial wrath and greater shout for my cc. which if i worked out
the numbers right will be plenty enough for all content.

please do not take any notice of stupid statements like the above as dc casting is good if you invest in it and have
the right gear.

your friend sil :)

moo_cow
11-23-2016, 01:11 AM
Completely untrue. DC casting is at a high point compared to the majority of the past 5 years.

The point I was going to mention was that enchant DC is easy enough to hit that a sorc makes a better enchanting-blaster than wizard, warlock or bard because of the superior spell point pool to all plus more enchantment spell choices compared to bard/warlock. All you need is spell focus enchant, heighten, spell pen and greater spell pen at heroic levels as far as enchanting goes. i would then take quicken, empower maximize for the remaining 3 feats. You could also potentially replace spell focus enchantment with spell focus evocation - the only drawback is you lose the legit way to twist 3 enchant dc from magister, but you may not even need that. I am looking at making a sorc soon and will go with bladeforged enchanting blasting - probably with a 2 splash which is yet tbd.

Crushing despair and mind fog are two easy button debuffs for enchantment.

Feel like a big shot arguing with a 6 month old post?

moo_cow
11-23-2016, 01:12 AM
the only thing dumb here is if you think the above.

dc casting is in a good spot at the moment. i just tr'd out of being a pure spellsinger bard that could mass hold
everything and used burst of glacial wrath to freeze everything. it worked a treat in all content i ran (all elites)
right now i tr'd into a drow sorc to get a higher glaciation count (i want to try for a 1000 before meta's) the
bard only had 770 in draconic. wont be using masshold this life as drow, only way i could get the spell pen to 65
like the bard was to go elf so ill be using burst of glacial wrath and greater shout for my cc. which if i worked out
the numbers right will be plenty enough for all content.

please do not take any notice of stupid statements like the above as dc casting is good if you invest in it and have
the right gear.

your friend sil :)

View above comment.

slarden
11-23-2016, 09:32 PM
Feel like a big shot arguing with a 6 month old post? Didn't notice the date, but the thread was updated yesterday so I was responding to a recently updated thread. It doesn't really matter. What I said is as true today as it was 6 months ago.

Sam-u-r-eye
11-23-2016, 09:44 PM
Feel like a big shot making foolish statements like the above?

wow +1 for turning that around you big shot

slarden
11-23-2016, 09:47 PM
wow +1 for turning that around you big shot

It's been like 2 months and you are still bitter about me pointing out you used spirit cakes and took sp pots in a quest you said was easy...

moo_cow
11-25-2016, 03:12 PM
wow +1 for turning that around you big shot

That quote though.

slarden
11-26-2016, 03:39 PM
That quote though.

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a519/slarden/SwiftL_zpsyc7mrnmb.gif (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/slarden/media/SwiftL_zpsyc7mrnmb.gif.html)

Rys
11-26-2016, 04:20 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/NbQgN8rgZornO/giphy.gif

slarden
11-26-2016, 04:25 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/NbQgN8rgZornO/giphy.gif

That was an impressive move by the black cat.