View Full Version : About Temple of Elemental Evil (Heroic)

03-27-2016, 01:18 PM
Hello DDO team and players

This is about ToEE (mostly Heroic Elite) and my experiences in this dungeon after about 10 hours.
Skip to suggestions for the important part or please continue with my story.

About me and the context of the feedback
I have been playing DDO for a while now and recently i TRed for the third time.
This life i am playing a Tempest Ranger trapper currently lvl 13.

I decided to try all content on Elite difficulty with Bravery bonus because the game started to feel easy.
Up to the point where i got to ToEE i cleared everything (except Chrono and Devil assault) with ease playing with a hireling or other players.
When i entered ToEE alone at lvl 9 after the first pack i quickly realized this is not happening at this point so i decided to return to it later.
I tried it several times until i finally cleared it for the first time at lvl 13 (after i soloed Elite Chronoscope and most of the dungeon content until lvl 12, 14 BB).

Why am i writing this?
I want it to be improved of course!
I spends a lot of time in the dungeon and i want to spends more, but first couple of points.

What i like about it:
- Huge dungeon with an epic feel to it where i can get lost for hours. (on elite difficulty)
- The population makes it feel alive and resisting the adventurers. (on elite difficulty)
- Nicely themed areas with random encounters and optional content.
- Music is actually good (opinion...)
- End bosses are nice (other then the one thing below)
- Shrines mechanism
- Random traps
- Its own crafting system and specific items

What i dont like:
- The balance in both difficulty and rewards seams all over the place.
- The dungeon alert mechanism make this place a very annoying experiences. If you engage one group and you accidentally pull the other that you dont even see its orange alert!
- Champions, when you have so many monsters it is very likely the group will have one.. or two... or three bowman hitting you for 50+ (?!)
- Huge dungeon with empty halls with barely anything in it (on normal difficulty)
- Feels like the dungeon (specially part 2) is larger then it needs to be. Feels artificially extended.
- To many random traps in one place (scales by difficulty?)
- The celebrity story being part of the reward.
- Doesn't seams to be popular at all, at least Heroic.
- Random traps (more on this below)

I feel the main problem of this dungeon is balance, dungeon alert and it being not worth to put time into.
Here are my suggestions to address these topics.

Who is this dungeon made for?
It seams to me that it does not target anyone correctly and it needs a look into who is it meant for and balance accordingly.
- Not warned appropriately, while on normal its average difficulty on elite its way more difficult then Elite Chronoscope which is just one level lower RAID, this is not average.
- On elite it should be a raid when you compare it to other raids around this level (chrono, tempest), but then the rewards are bad for a raid...
- So who is this dungeon for? It seams to be catering to everyone at some level... elite meant for the insane (as in not worth doing)

The difficulty based monster groups
Make the group size less dependent on the difficulty and at the same time reducing the amount to half or two third on elite and make the monsters more difficult on higher difficulty. Reducing the amount would also somewhat address the champion concern and dungeon alert.
- The small group size on normal makes the place feel empty and boring while on elite its teeming with life but its exhausting to clear the place.
- Replace the closely packed groups with static groups and patrols. This would add an element of preparation and gave the player an option to engage or completely avoid the patrol.

Specific monsters balance in the dungeon
Overall it feels like the random rares are much easier then any of the groups (cultist, temple guards, ogres...) and some of the mosters in the groups are way too strong. Increase the difficulty of the random rares and reduce the output of some of the group members.
- Temple Guard bowman, i am not sure why these guys hit for almost double the damage of the others (including ogres). They are usually hitting for 15-30 (50+ for champions) while the other mobs for 5-15 (ogres somewhat more), they are ranged and shoot fast. You can of course LoS them but they also slow and eventually you have to run to them as melee. I dont understand how is this balanced.
- More examples from elemental caves. Water elemental champions must hit for about 150 cold damage while the non champions about 35 (which is 120 vs 5 with 30 resist).
- Rares are mostly boring, they need to be spices up and make them stronger and not just bu surrounding them in archers.

Rewards and crafting
I dont feel the rewards when it comes to the crafting system are worthwhile, increase the mushroom drop rate so that its possible to create at least a tier 1 item item when completing the 2 quests so you have the feeling that it all amounted to something.
- After full clearing part 1 (absolutely everything) and about one third of part 2 (at which point i said to myself F this place) i have 125 brown and 10-50 of other colors which is not enough for anything. The important part is that i dont think i ever get more because i dont want to go back again in this state.
- I feel that the whole crafting system is pointless and that the time spends making it was not well spend. It could be different on Epic but i wont know.

Final boss part 2
Make the monster spawn over time and not the whole wave at once. Make them spawn until the boss is dead to make it a dps check and not luck based how many champions you get.
- The seconds wave dropped 2 champion hezrous on me. The status of the encounter went from under control to dead. They can teleport outside of the arena where you can kill then once you are back though, doesnt seam to be intended.
- The boss one shot AoE call kill you outside of the arena if you are not far away, which was a surprise for me.
- It was also surprising that you can go in a continue where you left it. On one hand i was able to brute force it and on the other it feels cheese. The boss is also attacking while you are outside which is strange to me.

More on dungeon alert
I think this is a very bad way to punish players for content skiping and it is more evident in this dungeon because you can actually get to a point of alert. Remove it.

Impact of recent happenings
It seams that either the lag or pathing changes make the monsters stuck in place once you have spawned some amount (5 groups maybe).
- I was in the Air cave where i left few groups + some respawned and when i entered the water cave all the monsters were rooted in place which made so only the water elementals could attack me.

I like the idea of random traps but the execution is boring and annoying. Reduce the amount of traps in a group and make them more varied... there are so many traps in this game!
- Why do you need 9 traps in one place? One or two seams to be enough to kill my hireling and they will get avoided or disarmed anyway. Its just takes longer and reduce the enjoyment of the game.

The celebrity (opinion...)
Please dont make content that rewards something non cosmetic to listen to someones story.
- I dont like the guy and i think he did not do a good job as DM. I could not care less about his story and i had to mute him shortly.
- I am mentioning this because i think the DM is an important part of the game.

This is what comes to mind at the moment. I would really love to go back and farm few items for TR but i dont see it happening.
Dont know what are the stories of other about the dungeon but it doesn't feels popular on Heroic.

I dont know who this dungeon is for but the balance seams all over the place and doesnt seams to be worth doing/buying. The bowman and air part (playing as melee) made me almost loose my mind.
The crafting system to me is worthless.

edit: typos, one other point

03-27-2016, 02:36 PM
It's a difficult quest. Few comments.

Heroic crafted items are average to bad. Yeah I guess those could use a bump. That said, some of the named items are obscenely strong and that's enough motivating for me. Also, you've actually got quite a lot of shrooms in one run. I wouldn't mind the grind if the reward was good.

Dungeon alert usually can be avoided if you don't bring hires and summons.

Bowmen and icey elementals are indeed doing too much damage.

Traps hurt. I don't mind.

Patrols - I don't like the idea. Stuff can be difficult enough, additional mobs wandering into an encounter... Meh

Part II end fight. Yeah. There were some ideas on how to make the fight less frustrating. Boss AoE hitting outside of her lair is really annoying. Perhaps the damage over time could be made more forgiving (heroics). Additional mechanics for the end fight: teleport stones to shrine in case of wipe. Add teleport to lair from the pyramid room once the end fight starts to make reentries easier.

That said, some people still run this quest for elite BB. I usually run part one, that's easy enough if you stick to the quick completion.

04-04-2016, 06:47 PM
You keep bringing up the damage of ranged archers, and yet you are a ranger.

Okay first, go to object draw distance and set it to ultra high in advanced options to see things before they see you (hopefully you invested into spot, especially as a trapper).

Second...if you are a ranger you are going to be primarily taking mostly missile fire from spells and ranged weapons being ranged yourself. You have both melee and ranged feats no matter which extra feats you chose. The thing about missile fire, its pretty easy to avoid by sidestepping or strafing left or right, or jumping. Make sure to have your improved precise shot toggled too when you are facing hordes that are wiping their feet off on your face.

Third...its my personal belief Rangers are set on feats. PRR is huge in this game. I would invest a feat for at least medium armor, and another one for heavy or quick draw (which allows you to change not only your bow to melee weapons, but your armor faster if you wanted to switch back and forth for evasion.)

Alternatively you could take a couple fighter, favored soul, paladin, or cleric levels to use whatever armor you like. If you choose one FS, or Cleric...that also allows you to raise your spellcraft to increase damage on your elemental imbues.

I been around for awhile, I first played in 2009 and came back. What I learned is players complain about new challenges, then figure out a work around for them. Its part skill, part equipment, part build.

As for the end fight of TOEE 2... yeah its like they took the entire experience of THE PIT and threw it into a demonic Mushroom lady.

04-05-2016, 11:15 AM
This is the only quest I can not Elite BB on my heroic completion character. The mobs hit hard, multiple groups can find you pretty easily, and many different styles of mobs at the same time. I really love these quests. The part 2 end fight is almost too brutal, the DOT you can't do anything about (for a while- I know you can remove it but not during the dialogue) and the earthquake/insta kill combo is really cheap. This quest would have been a great raid.