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View Full Version : Want advice for Healer with int-based dual wielding



Selvera
03-03-2016, 04:36 PM
So I wanted to create a fvs because I unlocked it. My goals for this favored soul were essentially to be a good healer/support, but since it's not always easy to find parties and often parties don't nead a good healer/support, someone who can throw in a little bit of dps to easier content.

So I ended up going for a drow int based twf build (shortswords preferably) with good cha (for the spellpoints to heal with).
28 point drow, no tomes (+1's are hella hard to find these days), access to the harper tree.

Str 8, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 18

Reasons ->
I need 17 dex to get twf feats, +1 levelup should get me there.
I decided to use harper Int for hit/damage instead of str, so I wouldn't be as MAD
I wanted a high CHA so that I'd have lots of spell points to fill my primary role of healer/support
Con is necessary, so I stuck 6 build points in that too.

For feats, I know I want (not in this order):
Two weapon fighting
Improved two weapon fighting
Greater two weapon fighting
Improved Critical
Empowered Healing

Unsure of the other feat... perhaps precision, power critical or something that helps with support casting?

For enhancements I was a little stumped, since fvs doesn't have the nice support-casting tree that is Radiant Servant, and it appears to have no equivalent.
I know I want Int for hit/damage from the Harper tree
I'm keen on getting all those hit/damage bonuses from Drow weapons/dual wielding specialization, at least during heroics, I might respec out of it once I hit epic (if I don't TR).
Considering getting Ameliorating Strike for some manaless healing that scales well with doublestrike and offhand procs, however this might not be necessary given my large mana pool. Righteous weapon would also be nice, as it adds even more bonuses to dual wielding shortswords that scale well in heroics.

I would like to stay a pure fvs if possible, since I like pure classes (I would like to test out a capstone) and I want level 9 spells for maximum support-healer power, however I will consider splashes. 2 levels paladin is very tempting for the (up to +10) all saves. I own all classes except for monk and warlock.

I don't have to be the highest-kill person in the group, I want to be able to help a medium/low-power group with healing and buffs, but be able to throw in a bit of extra dps if the healing is not needed (high powered group or low-level content). I don't have to scale up to level 30 perfectly, as I'm as likely as not to TR at 20-22ish.

Also on the table, I still have the lesser heart of wood which I could use to switch build points/etc, would it be a better idea to go int/wis/cha and ignore twf to be a healer that can throw in a bit of damage through spells instead?

Serim
03-04-2016, 04:21 AM
Since you plan to have high charisma, the logical choice would be Str build, because of Divine Might in Warpriest tree. Then you could move points from Int to Con for higher HP. Also for healers, the Quicken metamagic is essential.

If you end up multiclassing, remember that Pallies only get Cha bonus to saves 2+(3*paladin level). I have Wis based caster 17/3 FvS/Pal for Sacred Defense stance (extra PRR+HP+Saves), but that way I've lost 9th lvl spells. If you wish to go melee route, I'd suggest splashing 2 Monk for 2 martial bonus feats and evasion.

unbongwah
03-04-2016, 09:15 AM
I decided to use harper Int for hit/damage instead of str, so I wouldn't be as MAD
Uhh, your build is already MAD as proposed, you just went DEX/CON/INT/CHA MAD instead of STR/DEX/CON/CHA MAD. And seeing how you have Div Might, that's largely a wash DPS-wise.

I would understand going INT-based if you wanted more skill pts or were mixing in Swashbuckler or something like that, but I'm not seeing the upside to going INT-based here.

Also on the table, I still have the lesser heart of wood which I could use to switch build points/etc, would it be a better idea to go int/wis/cha and ignore twf to be a healer that can throw in a bit of damage through spells instead?
Obviously, that's a different build and you might as well go with a traditional Evoker if you go that route.

Of course, you can play a TWF FvS if you want, it's just...well, not to be indelicate, but to what extent is role-playing flavor more important to you than solo effectiveness (particularly in epics)? As you've probably noticed, Warpriest is a weak melee DPS tree, particularly compared to all of the DPS buffage of the last two years. Pure FvS still make great healers, there's just not much call for dedicated healers with all the emphasis on self-sufficient toons.

Selvera
03-04-2016, 10:33 AM
Thanks for the feedback,

I'll make sure to take quicken metamagic, is it something to use most of the time, or just when you need to not be interrupted?

I noticed divine might, which means my damage would be Str+half cha if I kept it up (which is easy), but the alternative is to use Know the Angles, which would allow the damage to be Int+half Int. Str+cha would give more carry weight and mana, int+int would give more spell damage and skill points. However I get +2 to Int free from drow that I don't get to str.
However there are ways to get str, such as Divine Power that I might not be calculating. If I'm satisfied with +6 str (which stays competitive until 20 easily), I could cut down on the MAD for itemization a bit.
Perhaps it's strange that I went 18 cha and 16 int if I planned on itemizing int heavily when I wanted to do damage.

Roleplay vs solo effectiveness in epics? I'd pick roleplay easily since I'd prefer to group and I'm not even sure if I want to do epics.

Monk is not an option for me.

What advantages does swash get from Int? (other then int to damage which harper gets) This would be an interesting splash since I could hand out some songs to support my support ability.

Hafeal
03-04-2016, 11:26 AM
Hmmm ...

What about doing 6 levels Ranger? That would get you a nice # of feats, including TwF and ITwF. and it would grant access to the Tempest tree.

If you really want LoF and a 9th level spell, go 2 Ranger. You will still be a little feat starved for spell metamagics but doable.

If you go dex based, as Int makes little sense to me, just take Weapon Finesse as an early feat.

Either way, I think this would get you the extra oomph to your dps you are looking for.

Enoach
03-04-2016, 12:28 PM
If the INT base is not negotiable then I would consider going 6 Ranger.

This will give you TWF and BOW Feats and 14 Levels of FvS.

You won't need to meet the DEX criteria so you can minimize what attributes are needed and will also open up Ram's Might as another Strength boost (Usable with Bow Strength)

I would recommend a low Wisdom investment and ignore DC based spells and focus more on light spells and buffs.

This would save on Dexterity investment And also limits wisdom investment allowing you to invest more on Intelligence and Constitution.

Selvera
03-04-2016, 02:52 PM
After looking at the level 9 spells, it looks like most of them aren't very good. (Really? Level 9 spells not that good? Is this D&D?)
True Resurrection looks decent, worth using but not a huge loss if I don't get it.
Energy drain looks like a good spell if I have DC casters in the party or if I'm a DC caster.
Heal Mass sounds like it's not as good as cure critical mass due to cast time.
Implosion sounds like a good spell if I am a DC caster.
Summon monster is a summon spell.

And, that means if I'm a twf fvs, the only 9th level spell worth taking is True Res. So I might be considering making a bigger dip into other classes, although I still hold that I'd like to test out a capstone. Maybe, given this I would do better if I try to be a DC caster instead. I think I might have discovered why there aren't very many pure fvs out there.

unbongwah
03-04-2016, 03:10 PM
Energy drain looks like a good spell if I have DC casters in the party or if I'm a DC caster.
Energy Drain has no DC check, only a SR one; which means it can be useful even on a battlecleric.

Selvera
03-04-2016, 03:14 PM
yes, I noticed that, however the strongest part of giving a target negative levels appears to be the -2 all saves per negative level, which has significant synergy with DC casters. The other penalties energy drain applies don't seem to justify the 9th level slot or mana cost in any way.

So energy drain looks good even if my DC's are bad, to make a friendly DC caster in my party even better. IF I happen to have a DC caster in my party. Alternatively if I was that DC caster, I can guarantee that it's useful in every party. See what I was getting at here?

stoopid_cowboy
03-04-2016, 03:21 PM
I have built some crazy Flavored soul combinations, but I can't seem to wrap my head around an int based build being even marginally effective.
You would probably be better to go with a strength build and splash a couple of fighter levels for the Kensai weapon bonuses.

28 point build is going to be your killer. Drow is a fail all in itself...

Good luck with your build and keep that lesser heart ready.

Eryhn
03-04-2016, 04:15 PM
if you want damage on a FVS I would remain caster. The evocation spells do good dmg, both single target and aoe. Though, the low levels till you get blade barrier and cometfall are kind off cumbersome, and the light dmg begins to shine with epic destiny exalted angel SLAs avenging light and divine wrath more so than in heroics ... Overall lack of SLAs compared to light caster cleric is an issue though. Even if it is neither a very spell point efficient thing to do in EE or LE content nor the kind of caster damage output min maxers might want to bring to endgame if you run more average stuff you should get by well enough on EH at level and be able to contribute something useful on EE to a group.

generally speaking, healing will be more costly than on cleric due to lack of aura and burst, but then you also get way more SP, (which you also do need though for metamagiced dmg dealing on the AOEs) As first life DCs will be bit lower - but the new lootgen offers ways to compensate for that some.

I did my 2nd life with 34 points as 18/1/1 fvs/morninglord/wizard, and that performed very satisfying for somebody not aiming to run highest content at highest diff. basically crushed any EH content with ease. While on first life and still lacking destinies and twists it'll be at bit weaker than that, still a viable thing to play.

If you want melee, as already suggested, I would rather explore Axel's build, or some sort of kensei/pally hybrid with cleric levels for pos energy burst but no aura, STR based with divine might ...

edit: as an addition maybe, imho going dual wielding AND multiclass healer on a first life with no tomes is problematic choice of weapons. you need to meet dex requirements for imp/greater twf which cuts severly into your build points for main stats. while elven dex based racial might *look* like a way out of that (by skipping STR as dmg stat) it is likewise no good, as 18 points in racial constrict you too much to be able to spread enhancement points between melee tree and healer tree.

bottom line: if you want melee divine on first life, seriously consider STR, bump STR via CHA with divine might AND two HANDED fighting style. making twf work like you intend is costing you elsewhere ... dont rly see a way around that unless high tomes and 36p build ...

Jiirix
03-04-2016, 05:34 PM
CHA based PDK TWF Favoite Sould was ok-ish for me. Energy burst worked nice with the melee combat.

Selvera
03-06-2016, 02:48 AM
Aha, I found the big flaw in the int-based build. I had confused the wording of Know the angles, so I thought it was much better then it actually is. (And none of you pointed that out to me!)

I thought know the angles was: 1) Gain an insight bonus to damage equal to half your intelligence and 2) gain a bonus to the DC of your tactical feats equal to half your intelligence.
However it actually is: 1) Gain a bonus to your tactical feats, both DC and damage, equal to half your intelligence.

Which is significantly worse, and a decent reason why str+cha wins vs int+int on a dps basis.

Sunnie
03-06-2016, 10:01 AM
Aha, I found the big flaw in the int-based build. I had confused the wording of Know the angles, so I thought it was much better then it actually is. (And none of you pointed that out to me!)

I thought know the angles was: 1) Gain an insight bonus to damage equal to half your intelligence and 2) gain a bonus to the DC of your tactical feats equal to half your intelligence.
However it actually is: 1) Gain a bonus to your tactical feats, both DC and damage, equal to half your intelligence.

Which is significantly worse, and a decent reason why str+cha wins vs int+int on a dps basis.
It's neither of those, actually, but 1) is closest.

You get the bonus to all damage, and to the DCs. But the bonus it equal to half your intelligence MODIFIER, so (intelligence-10)/4. For a FvS Divine Might is still the better option, though, because it means one less stat for you to try and keep high.

unbongwah
03-06-2016, 12:06 PM
I thought know the angles was: 1) Gain an insight bonus to damage equal to half your intelligence and 2) gain a bonus to the DC of your tactical feats equal to half your intelligence.
However it actually is: 1) Gain a bonus to your tactical feats, both DC and damage, equal to half your intelligence.
Actually, that's still not quite right: "You gain an Insight bonus to damage and the DC of tactical feats equal to 1/2 of your Intelligence modifier" - not your total INT. So if you have INT 18 (+4 mod), it adds +2 dmg and +2 to tactical DCs.

Selvera
03-06-2016, 01:07 PM
Yes I know it's the modifier, pretty much everything is, however I used know the angles with 16 int (+3 modifier) and looked at my damage before and after I used it, half of +3 is 1.5, but I my damage profile didn't change (+0 change).

In contrast, using divine favor gave me +1 damage on my damage profile, as it should.

Perhaps it's just a display bug and it works as I thought it did (+1 damage for 16 int) if I test it on dummies.

Selvera
03-08-2016, 11:31 AM
Looking at swashbuckling and it actually looks pretty good. I would have to give up 9th level spells, but as I noted above, this isn't a huge loss, and I could gain quite a bit from it:

I could swash buckle with an orb in my offhand, which is cool because I don't have an orb character, and it looks like they can give some nice spell-focused stats.
I could get rid of my MAD by using single weapon fighting by focusing on CHA (no dex requirements!).
It would improve my favored/race weapon (shortsword) to have a critical profile competitive with later game builds.
I get a weak version of some nice bard spells. (inspire competence)

Edit: I went and did some testing on a target dummy (This character's going rather slowly as it's a with friends/if I'm bored character, not the main). Turns out that Know the angles DOES work and increase my DPS on all attacks, it just doesn't show up on your character sheet. My test went something like this:

Hit the dummy 50 or so times without know the angles: lowest damage I saw was 7, highest damage I saw was 18
Turn on know the angles and hit it 50 or so more times: lowest damage I saw was 9, highest was 20.
I have a +4 int mod. This sounds right, even if there is no change on the character sheet.