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KookieKobold
02-11-2016, 04:43 PM
Howdy everyone!

Lamannia has been updated and opened with the first part of Update 30!

Come on by to check it out!

We will be having a Dev event on Friday, February 12th from 8 to 11pm eastern (GMT-5).


Release notes can be found here:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-2-11-16)

Known issues can be found here:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438924-Lamannia-Notice-Board-(Last-Updated-2-11-16)

Cordovan
02-11-2016, 04:48 PM
Gnomageddon!

Zebedar
02-11-2016, 04:54 PM
Deep Gnomes are +2 intel and +2 wis.

Cocomajobo
02-11-2016, 04:56 PM
When are we finally going to get a bloody wisdom race? don't you developers ever listen to the players? people have been asking for a wisdom race for years now but you just keep ignoring them.

Deep Gnomes should have been a wisdom race, plain and simple. Do all of us players a favor and actually read and know the core material of Dungeons and Dragons before you turn this into just another MMORPG by just creating things out of thin air. Bloody ridiculous.

Deep Gnomes get bonuses to both Intelligence and Wisdom.

Livmo
02-11-2016, 04:59 PM
DETAILS!!!!

From the release notes there will be, "Broccoli Juice and Bacon have been added to taverns."

I'm unable Lama. Can someone five more details about these items please?

My mouth is watering.

Please and thanks!

Grailhawk
02-11-2016, 05:10 PM
What is an Earthen Illusionist?

Druid? Wizard? New Class?

UurlockYgmeov
02-11-2016, 05:14 PM
DETAILS!!!!

From the release notes there will be, "Broccoli Juice and Bacon have been added to taverns."

I'm unable Lama. Can someone five more details about these items please?

My mouth is watering.

Please and thanks!


https://media.giphy.com/media/t2zfqkwYkVaRa/giphy.gif

Breakfast of Champions Legends and Adventurer's Everywhere!

#bacon!

Basura_Grande
02-11-2016, 05:17 PM
What's the gnome IPL?

Holymunchkin
02-11-2016, 05:19 PM
gnomageddon!

gnomnados!!!!!

thomascoolone64
02-11-2016, 05:31 PM
Character copy need to be improved to handle a lot of Traffic! GRR!!!

Livmo
02-11-2016, 05:46 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/t2zfqkwYkVaRa/giphy.gif

Breakfast of Champions Legends and Adventurer's Everywhere!

#bacon!

Bacon got it going on!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z868qVH56k

FranOhmsford
02-11-2016, 05:51 PM
What is an Earthen Illusionist?

Druid? Wizard? New Class?

Earth Savant Sorc with Bonuses to Illusion DCs?

PsychoBlonde
02-11-2016, 05:57 PM
What is an Earthen Illusionist?

Druid? Wizard? New Class?

It's like how Sun Elves are Morninglords. It's not a new class, it's just the name for their feature list.

Their base class is wizard.

PsychoBlonde
02-11-2016, 06:00 PM
Some notes:

Deep Gnome females have facial tattoos but they don't display in the character creation screen--I accidentally gave my test character a tattoo without realizing it.

I like the new hair styles for the iconic.

the /laugh emote is missing a voice element

Like the new /dance and /dance2 a lot.

I suspect some people will think that their facial model (nose especially) is "cartoony", but I actually quite like it. I would even enjoy seeing this style applied a bit more to the existing races--maybe give them a little face lift/update if time can be found. The game is old enough that attempting to look like "hot graphix" is a lost cause, but a good art style can make up for this in a lot of ways. Personally I think a lot of the art in the game has aged very gracefully.

Spekdah_NZ
02-11-2016, 06:03 PM
What is an Earthen Illusionist?

Druid? Wizard? New Class?

From the last Wednesday livestream it was mentioned being a wizard. There was also talk of the doing something quite different with the Deep Gnome. Real cliffhanger that comment :-)

When are we getting a peak at the Gnome racial trees? I assume with the description "Earthen Illusionist" there has to be something in the racial tree?

I'm at work ... be a while before I can install new Lam client.

Someone tell me MOAR stuff!

Eldried
02-11-2016, 06:09 PM
Iconic PL for a gnome is +3 MRR passive and the active one gives +1 Illusion DC and +5 acid Spellpower.

Grailhawk
02-11-2016, 06:20 PM
Iconic PL for a gnome is +3 MRR passive and the active one gives +1 Illusion DC and +5 acid Spellpower.

I kind of expected MRR now i need to plan Gnome Warlock lives.

Grailhawk
02-11-2016, 06:23 PM
It's like how Sun Elves are Morninglords. It's not a new class, it's just the name for their feature list.

Their base class is wizard.


Thats what I expected but just need confirmation since Earthen Illusions isn't 100% clear as wizard.

dontmater
02-11-2016, 06:25 PM
•Party member voice volume can now be adjusted individually on a slider when in a party....




I ALMOST LOVE YOU GUYS

Spekdah_NZ
02-11-2016, 07:04 PM
Iconic PL for a gnome is +3 MRR passive and the active one gives +1 Illusion DC and +5 acid Spellpower.

TY. Gnome Warlock lives are going to generate some fast MRR.

Wonder if we are getting more illusion spells? Wonder if Gnome tree has some illusion based SLAs?

At the moment there is only Phantasmal Killer (4) and Hypnotic Pattern (2). Turbine could you at least add Weird (9), it's a AOE Phas Killer, so copy and paste and just fiddle the target area type :p. Would like to also eventually see scintillating pattern, nightmare, rainbow pattern, mislead .. hell even colour spray. The illusion conjuration lines are pretty weak being only a fraction of the strength of a summon.

Maelodic
02-11-2016, 07:41 PM
-Can you put the iconic tree and racial tree in the patch notes please?
-Do any of the next parts for update 30 contain class passes? Monk?

Zebedar
02-11-2016, 07:43 PM
The new AA ability final strike, has no specific numbers in game with the tool tip or otherwise.

That's not going to cut it, players need to see what something can do reliably to be able to use it. Transparency is key, not Vague descriptions.

Lemdog
02-11-2016, 07:56 PM
hehe gnomes look downright creepy. at least some of em

Quanefel
02-11-2016, 08:07 PM
*Party member voice volume can now be adjusted individually on a slider when in a party.*

Yes! Now for all those players who refuse to down-adjust their voices volumes from ear-blasting volumes, this is great. Also for some who over-pronounce their "S/Z"-sounds which is like a dagger to my brain. Seriously, I can not be the only one who finds that annoying.

The_Human_Cypher
02-11-2016, 08:07 PM
I really like the look of both the regular Gnomes and Deep Gnomes. The Gnome /dance and /dance2 are very well done. There is one thing missing from the Deep Gnome racial tree, however.

Deep Gnomes should have the ability to summon an Earth Elemental at the highest part of the racial enhancement tree.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Deep_gnome

Or, at least, this should be a Spell Like Ability for those Deep Gnomes that remain Wizards. I wouldn't think this racial trait would be too hard to add at this point, so please consider revising the Deep Gnome tree to include Earth Elemental summoning.

The_Human_Cypher
02-11-2016, 08:16 PM
This suggestion would require substantially more work, but expanding the Illusionist spell selection in DDO for the Deep Gnome would improve this Iconic. The current list of DDO Illusion spells is very short.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Illusion_spells

Some illusion spells from AD&D could be added to this specialization's canon.

http://pandaria.rpgworlds.info/cant/rules/adnd_spells.htm

Ziindarax
02-11-2016, 08:17 PM
TR gnomes are not gnomes at all - they're just humans who are really, really UGLY! And not just humans, Humanoid critters who are taller than some races. XD I stand taller than a Sahaugin AND a warforged... That's really weird. Gonna take a guess and say they've gone and super-sized one too many happy meals!

Qezuzu
02-11-2016, 08:41 PM
Some kind soul should really screenshot and list the racial trees for us.

Cleanincubus
02-11-2016, 08:42 PM
DETAILS!!!!

From the release notes there will be, "Broccoli Juice and Bacon have been added to taverns."

I'm unable Lama. Can someone five more details about these items please?

My mouth is watering.

Please and thanks!

Broccoli Juice gives 6000SP over 1 minute. Bacon gives 6000HP over 1 minute. Both work only in the tavern.

Ovrad
02-11-2016, 08:59 PM
Cool stuff!

...but wraps are still broken.


Also, is the PL for deep gnomes really 3 MRR? Cause that's totally useless to me, since some wise guy decided my MRR was gonna cap at 50 cause I'm not wearing a tin can. I still can't wrap my head around that cap... it makes no sense.

Cleanincubus
02-11-2016, 09:29 PM
I hope the 1295TP price for the regular Gnome is a mistake. It's an overly cartoonish looking halfling, that prances when it walks, has a weird right side tilt when it stands still, and gets a +2 to INT instead of DEX.

Not impressed, and I will be disgusted if this is the actual price that makes it to Live.

Qezuzu
02-11-2016, 09:35 PM
Also, is the PL for deep gnomes really 3 MRR? Cause that's totally useless to me, since some wise guy decided my MRR was gonna cap at 50 cause I'm not wearing a tin can. I still can't wrap my head around that cap... it makes no sense.

Yeah, it's way too easy to reach 50 MRR. Mysterious Cloak + lootgen item is enough to cap you well before lvl30, let alone having +18 MRR from PL's. Warlock PL had no benefit for light armor users, which is fine, not everything will benefit everyone, but it's disinteresting to get the same past life bonus twice. I feel it should be something different.

DANTEIL
02-11-2016, 09:53 PM
So I made an Iconic Deep Gnome, and because I was feeling a bit lazy, I chose to follow the default Earthen Illusionist path, and then just insta-leveled up to Level 15 Wizard. I haven't really quested with it yet, so I don't know how it plays, but right off the bat I see one gigantic problem: Using the default path and the default Iconic starter gear, I am left with these ability scores:
ST: 6
DX: 12
CN: 24
IQ: 30
WS: 10
CH: 6

This is before any enhancements (which would mostly affect Int/Wis anyway).

While I appreciate the investment into Con along with Int, it seems a bit ridiculous to allow a Level 15 character to start out with a Strength of 6 (plus a CHA of 6, but for me that's less of an issue). I would never use the default path for a real game character, but since it's there and since players are going to use it, this is an opportunity to help newer players who do choose this route avoid problems. The starter Deep Gnome gear should at least have +4/+5 Strength somewhere, which would be typical for what a Level 15 character would have.

Lycurgus
02-11-2016, 10:20 PM
Why do the deep gnomes look like the children of the corn?

Aletys
02-11-2016, 10:40 PM
I see nothing new in either increased crafting levels or the ability to make some of the types of items available in the new lootgen. If the only thing that's happening for Cannith crafting is fixing the inability to decon for essences, well that was needed, but it's not really a crafting pass. It's just updating the tables for the new lootgen.

Pretty disappointing. I hope that if you truly intend to do a real crafting pass that you give us the opportunity to evaluate it, and not just for a couple of days. The last major updates have given players woefully inadequate time to test out the new stuff & changes.

The_Human_Cypher
02-11-2016, 10:44 PM
Why do the deep gnomes look like the children of the corn?

We need this hat in DDO to complete the Children of the Corn look.

http://www.horrornewsnetwork.net/images/Isaac.jpg

Hiponic
02-11-2016, 10:58 PM
We need this hat in DDO to complete the Children of the Corn look.

http://www.horrornewsnetwork.net/images/Isaac.jpg


+1

Dreppo
02-11-2016, 11:01 PM
I see nothing new in either increased crafting levels or the ability to make some of the types of items available in the new lootgen. If the only thing that's happening for Cannith crafting is fixing the inability to decon for essences, well that was needed, but it's not really a crafting pass. It's just updating the tables for the new lootgen.

Pretty disappointing. I hope that if you truly intend to do a real crafting pass that you give us the opportunity to evaluate it, and not just for a couple of days. The last major updates have given players woefully inadequate time to test out the new stuff & changes.

This is update 30 "part 1".

Hiponic
02-11-2016, 11:02 PM
I can't get a toon copied. Oh well figured that.

Gnomes look ok. The racial tree is really nice. Int and Dodge going to be nice for Artificers.

blerkington
02-11-2016, 11:07 PM
Hi,

Two things in the release notes caught my eye.

UI:



Party member voice volume can now be adjusted individually on a slider when in a party.


Miscellaneous:



Players should now see fewer Awesomium processes in their computer's Task Manager when running the DDO client.


These are both really welcome improvements.

Thanks for adding them.

AngryDude
02-12-2016, 12:13 AM
The underpants of Stormreach and Eveningstar will start going missing. Work all day, work all night, search for underpants

The_Human_Cypher
02-12-2016, 12:20 AM
I really like the look of both the regular Gnomes and Deep Gnomes. The Gnome /dance and /dance2 are very well done. There is one thing missing from the Deep Gnome racial tree, however.

Deep Gnomes should have the ability to summon an Earth Elemental at the highest part of the racial enhancement tree.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Deep_gnome

Or, at least, this should be a Spell Like Ability for those Deep Gnomes that remain Wizards. I wouldn't think this racial trait would be too hard to add at this point, so please consider revising the Deep Gnome tree to include Earth Elemental summoning.

Phantasmal Killer as a SLA is at the top of the Deep Gnome racial enhancement tree. Phantasmal Killer can also be taken as a SLA from the Archmage Illusionist path, so this is somewhat redundant. Replacing Phantasmal Killer with the ability to summon an Earth Elemental as a SLA would be more appropriate to the Deep Gnome racial tree.

John_Rove
02-12-2016, 12:24 AM
http://imgur.com/a/CJ2N5

Cores: Wariness (+1% Dodge, +2 MRR), Int/Wis, Wariness, Int/Wis, Scroll: Retain Essence (15% Racial Bonus to Retaining a Scroll when Using it, +2% Dodge, +2 MRR)

Tier 1: Illusory Escape (When You Tumble, you can tumble through Enemies.), Wand and Scroll Mastery, Underdark Experience (+1/2/3 to all saves), Stealthy or Awareness, Gnomish Weapon Training (+1/+1 With Light Hammer, Light Mace, Light Pick, Shortsword, Shortbow, Light Crossbow, or Light Repeating Crossbow)

Tier 2: Conjure Stone (Boulder Toss-Like, 25/15/5 SP, 10/8/6 Second Cooldown, 6/12/20d4 damage, Knockdown on 10/15/20+INT Mod), Hardy Nature (+2/4/6 AC, +1/2/3 PRR), Color Spray (Enemies are sprayed with illusion causing Daze, Blind, or Silence, each have independent saves. 10/5/2 SP, 8 Second Cooldown), Permanent Blur, Gnomish Weapon Training.

Tier 3: Spellcraft (+5/10/20), Nimble Reaction (+1/2/3 Max Dex and Max Dodge), Stoneskin (10 SP, 20/15/10s Cooldown), Racial Spell Focus: Illusion (+1/2/3 to Illusion DC's), Gnomish Weapon Training (+2/+2)

Tier 4: Phantasmal Killer (25/15/5 SP, 16s cooldown), Favored Enemy (Goblinkind or Reptilian), Gnomish Weapon Training (+2/+2, +1 Competence on Crit Range)

nibel
02-12-2016, 12:31 AM
Just finished transcribbing both Gnome (http://ddowiki.com/page/Gnome_enhancements) and Deep Gnome (http://ddowiki.com/page/Deep_Gnome_enhancements) enhancement trees to the wiki. Enjoy.

John_Rove
02-12-2016, 12:39 AM
Cores: Gnomish Perserverance (+1% Dodge, +1 UMD), INT, Gnomish Perserverance, INT, Scroll: Retain Essence (15% Racial Bonus to Retaining a Scroll when Using it, +2% Dodge, +1 UMD)

Tier 1: Sivis Dragonmark Focus (+1/2/3 Dragonmark Uses, +1/2/3 UMD), Wand and Scroll Mastery, Keen Insight (+2/4/6 to Will Saves vs. Illusions), Stealthy or Awareness, Gnomish Weapon Training (+1/+1 With Light Hammer, Light Mace, Light Pick, Shortsword, Shortbow, Light Crossbow, or Light Repeating Crossbow)

Tier 2: Lesser Mark of Scribing (Illusory Mark of Flame (Symbol of Flame as Illusion so Will Save and Illusion)), Against the Giants (+2/4/6 Saves and AC vs. Giants), Color Spray (Enemies are sprayed with illusion causing Daze, Blind, or Silence, each have independent saves. 10/5/2 SP, 8 Second Cooldown), Permanent Blur, Gnomish Weapon Training.

Tier 3: Greater Mark of Scribing (Illusory Mark of Stunning (Symbol of Stunning As Illusion/Will)), Nimble Reaction (+1/2/3 Max Dex and Max Dodge), Racial Spell Focus: Illusion (+1/2/3 to Illusion DC's), Gnomish Weapon Training (+2/+2)

Tier 4: Favored Enemy (Gnoll or Reptilian), Gnomish Weapon Training (+2/+2, +1 Competence on Crit Range)

The_Human_Cypher
02-12-2016, 01:09 AM
Does anyone agree with me that Phantasmal Killer should be replaced by Summon Earth Elemental in the Deep Gnome racial enhancement tree?

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/a/a0/Earth_Elemental.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110806065044

FranOhmsford
02-12-2016, 01:33 AM
Does anyone agree with me that Phantasmal Killer should be replaced by Summon Earth Elemental in the Deep Gnome racial enhancement tree?

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/a/a0/Earth_Elemental.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110806065044

I agree so long as it's a fully usable Summon - This is a Tier 4 ability!

The Greensteel Earth Ele would be my minimum choice but I think this would need to be stronger than that.

Iriale
02-12-2016, 03:58 AM
Deep iconic gnomes as wizards? Thank you for killing the D&D lore, devs. Again.

If only you had done a Svirfneblin ranger it would make more sense as iconic. Anyway I guess there's no chance of you correct your stupid mistake of making the sun elf as divine when in all the history of D&D sun elves were the iconic wizards, and the mistake of not give the morninglord tree to an aasimar race.

Every time I'm more tired of the treatment you give to the game. Can you at least rename iconic to prestige toons? It would be more appropriate, since they are little iconic.

Having seen your ideas about “iconic” I just wish that you had sold the “iconic” trees as prestiges to add to the races. At least we would have the possibility of building our own iconic wizard and cleric with more sense.

Iriale
02-12-2016, 04:00 AM
Does anyone agree with me that Phantasmal Killer should be replaced by Summon Earth Elemental in the Deep Gnome racial enhancement tree?

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/a/a0/Earth_Elemental.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110806065044
No. summons are useless.


Also devs have chosen the prestige concept (no the iconic concept!) as illusionist wizard. An illlusion SLA is more suitable for an illusionist prestige. Maybe if they ever forget about "iconic" (since there is nothing iconic in their iconics heh) and they sell us various prestigious trees for every race, we will can get a druid or ranger Svirfneblin with empowered earth convocations.

Seriously, devs, forget about iconics and sell us prestige trees for the races. You will do money and players will be more happy.

Ah, and fix the stupid and terrible ugly look of PDKs, and add some racial features to shadar-kai!! PDKs are horrible beyond my ability to express myself in English, and it is a shame that you have not given a single racial characteristic to shadar-kais, beyond adjustments to abilties. If they are not human, what is so special in them to be another race? Let us know.

Spekdah_NZ
02-12-2016, 04:21 AM
Well only just got Lam up. Trying the deep gnome....

Some good customisation options !

They have small size bonus feat ala halflings. Racial Spell Resistance of 10+ char level and Gnomish Proficiencies (light hammer, throwing hammer, warhammer). Also got +2 haggle and +2 UMD.

Vanhooger
02-12-2016, 04:42 AM
Color spray..now this look like a nice spell...but how the DC is calculated? As well, is it illusion, evocation or what?

TitusOvid
02-12-2016, 06:17 AM
Phantasmal Killer as a SLA is at the top of the Deep Gnome racial enhancement tree. Phantasmal Killer can also be taken as a SLA from the Archmage Illusionist path, so this is somewhat redundant. Replacing Phantasmal Killer with the ability to summon an Earth Elemental as a SLA would be more appropriate to the Deep Gnome racial tree.


Seriously, who cares for an earth elemental summon?

Vanhooger
02-12-2016, 06:19 AM
Does anyone agree with me that Phantasmal Killer should be replaced by Summon Earth Elemental in the Deep Gnome racial enhancement tree?

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/a/a0/Earth_Elemental.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110806065044

No. Summon are useless.

TitusOvid
02-12-2016, 06:45 AM
I give you credit for less Awesonium processes and the possibility to individually adjust volume. That is really great if it works.

The_Human_Cypher
02-12-2016, 07:16 AM
Seriously, who cares for an earth elemental summon?

An Earth Elemental summon would be lore appropriate to the Deep Gnome. I don't think summons are useless, depending on the content level of course.

Xionanx
02-12-2016, 07:24 AM
Clearly Gnomes are being designed with the sole purpose of being Artificiers and Crossbow users in mind..:rolleyes:

As if crossbows need "More" sources of damage.

I can already see the synergy:

Gnome
Artificier
Rogue
Harper
INT to Hit/Damage with XBOWS

Such an obvious combo..

EDIT: Also, for the love of god please tell me the Cannith Crafting pass isn't in this update.. because if that is the extent of it....

JOTMON
02-12-2016, 07:27 AM
Gnome Racial Enhancmenets..


Gnomish Favored Enemy: Gnomes have a history of racial enmity with several kinds of creatures. Choose a Favored Enemy feat for one of these: Goblinoid or Reptilian
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 15 Requires: Improved Dodge
~ Too expensive for 2 AP and has an improved dodge requirement(which I did not see in the Gnome tree) . and overall just lacking as a T4 option....unless it scales with Character level..~

only 2 choices for T4....
~Elf gets Grace.. a dex to damage option.. how about giving Gnome a wisdom to Damage option...


Dragonmarks.. do these conflict with Epic Destiny enhancement symbols... would be really annoying to see symbols overwriting each other...

Starla70
02-12-2016, 07:30 AM
Going to go play with this for a bit. Sounds interesting!

LuKaSu
02-12-2016, 07:40 AM
Just finished transcribbing both Gnome (http://ddowiki.com/page/Gnome_enhancements) and Deep Gnome (http://ddowiki.com/page/Deep_Gnome_enhancements) enhancement trees to the wiki. Enjoy.

Sweet, thanks! Those are pretty fantastic! Stoneskin SLA? Yes, please! +20 spellcraft? Thank you very much!

Hrm, this looks like it could be a pretty fun Int-based (dip to get Int-to-hit and dmg) Arcane Archer build

FranOhmsford
02-12-2016, 08:29 AM
Gnome Racial Enhancmenets..


Gnomish Favored Enemy: Gnomes have a history of racial enmity with several kinds of creatures. Choose a Favored Enemy feat for one of these: Goblinoid or Reptilian
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 15 Requires: Improved Dodge
~ Too expensive for 2 AP and has an improved dodge requirement(which I did not see in the Gnome tree) . and overall just lacking as a T4 option....unless it scales with Character level..~

only 2 choices for T4....
~Elf gets Grace.. a dex to damage option.. how about giving Gnome a wisdom to Damage option...


Dragonmarks.. do these conflict with Epic Destiny enhancement symbols... would be really annoying to see symbols overwriting each other...

Wis to Dmg needs to go in Warpriest and Shintao NOT in a single Racial Tree!

And what the Heck Devs? Svirfneblin get Favoured Enemy but NO DROW!?! Come on Devs - Drow should be on that multiselector!

Kakow
02-12-2016, 08:34 AM
Deep iconic gnomes as wizards? Thank you for killing the D&D lore, devs. Again.

If only you had done a Svirfneblin ranger it would make more sense as iconic.

No. summons are useless.

These three comments are inconsistent with your argument. While I agree that DDO has not always been verbatim true to the lore in multiple cases, the fact remains that player character deep gnomes were indeed granted the ability to summon earth elementals, specifically in the AD&D book, Unearthed Arcana, page 11 if you care to check the source material. That you personally dislike summons is irrelevant if your basis is that it clashes with the lore, because it does not.

Additionally, at no point in any of the reference materials 3.5 and prior was I able to find svirfneblin rangers referenced as either iconic, prestige, or favored. I was able to find that the surface gnome Favored Class was Bard (Source: DnD Player's Handbook 3.5 Edition, page 17) and the deep gnome Favored Class was Rogue (Source: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Gnomes,_Deep%E2%80%94Svirfneblin_%28Race%29).

Interestingly, another poster brought up the fact that svirfneblin should have been a WIS race, which is more true to the canon; DnD 3.5 SRD has svirfnbelin with +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, –2 Strength, –4 Charisma. Surface Gnomes as a comparison had only 2 modified stats, +2 CON and -2 STR. But yeah, at no point were they given INT bonuses. I think the fine folks at turbine may be thinking that because there is so much history with illusory magic and gnomes and that illusionists were wizard specialists, that it goes to figure they'd get INT bonus...but nope...that's not at all the case. Didn't take a whole lot of effort to grab my PHB off my shelf and read the gnome race to find out the actual bonuses. Maybe I'll mail turbine HQ a copy of the source material their game is based on. Could be handy.

There are many differences between the actual tabletop game's actual rules history and the DDO version's implementation. Some of that is by the inherent nature of this being online versus tabletop. But a great amount of it is based on decisions that have no relation to source material and I do agree with you and wish also that Turbine would stop making it up as they go along with so much already in print in the canon that is easily translated to the MMO with already-in-game resources.

Turning DDO gnomes into tinker gnomes (a la Dragonlance, a la World of PandaCraft, a la innumerable other cash-grab rush to market MMOs) is a lore mistake. Will it make money though? Yep. And in the end, that seems to be the only concern the overlords of decision making care about. Cha-ching.

Kakow
02-12-2016, 08:46 AM
An Earth Elemental summon would be lore appropriate to the Deep Gnome. I don't think summons are useless, depending on the content level of course.

Agreed on it being lore appropriate, and I also don't think summons are useless. I do think artie dogs/druid dogs are terrible and only viable use is as lever pullers (primarily in Prison of the Planes). For more discussion on the possibilities on summons, see my thread where we talk about all the nice new things that have been implemented in the last few months for summons as a whole picture. Post here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/469914-Champion-of-Jubilex-a-comedy-approach-for-the-lolz

If anyone says "well that's just it...summons are useless except for fun," I'd seriously question why they even have the game installed anymore if having fun isn't the entire point.

TitusOvid
02-12-2016, 09:19 AM
It would be great to give feedback but I can't transfer any of my toons.

Cocomajobo
02-12-2016, 09:19 AM
TR gnomes are not gnomes at all - they're just humans who are really, really UGLY! And not just humans, Humanoid critters who are taller than some races. XD I stand taller than a Sahaugin AND a warforged... That's really weird. Gonna take a guess and say they've gone and super-sized one too many happy meals!

TR Gnomes aren't giant. That's just an illusion. Darn tricksters. Nothing to see here. ;)

Augon
02-12-2016, 09:41 AM
I just created an Iconic Gnome but when I equip her armor, it does not appear.

Augon
02-12-2016, 09:42 AM
I just created an Iconic Gnome but when I equip her armor, it does not appear.

And based on the fact that when i entered the Ball and Chain, there are two more naked gnomes down here, I'm not the only one.

JOTMON
02-12-2016, 09:53 AM
And based on the fact that when i entered the Ball and Chain, there are two more naked gnomes down here, I'm not the only one.

Pantless Gnomes.. must have been hitting the bottles of Gin..

Seikojin
02-12-2016, 10:14 AM
Deep Gnomes get bonuses to both Intelligence and Wisdom.

The release notes do not reflect that. It says +2 Int and -2 Str.

Augon
02-12-2016, 10:16 AM
Are there any plans to add some Illusion spells.

The Iconic Path is called earthen Illusionist, there are Illusion DC bonuses in the tree etc. It pretty obvious that the Devs plan on Gnomes to be good at Illusionist magic. However there are only 7 Illusion spells on the arcane list. of these only 2 really requires a save

Blur - a buff
Invisibility - a buff
Displacement - a buff
Hypno pattern - a debuff used to help get past will saves on enchantment spells
Phantasmal killer - an insta kill that requires 2 saves to kill or it does pitiful damage
Shadow walk - a nearly useless spell that could be used to sneak somewhere like we often use invis, but the graphics are so bad you can see the tree in front of your face
Invisibility, Mass


For us to play Illusionists in this game we are going to have to have more spells than these. and really, we need at least 1 additional illusion spell per spell level, so we really need at least 9 new spells. If there are no intentions of adding spells, I would be interested in hearing from a Dev as to how you envision playing a Gnome Illusionist.

Cordovan
02-12-2016, 10:33 AM
It would be great to give feedback but I can't transfer any of my toons.

We are looking into character copy. That said, the purpose of this preview is to check out gnomes, so please do that rather than copy characters over.

Qezuzu
02-12-2016, 10:34 AM
For us to play Illusionists in this game we are going to have to have more spells than these. and really, we need at least 1 additional illusion spell per spell level, so we really need at least 9 new spells. If there are no intentions of adding spells, I would be interested in hearing from a Dev as to how you envision playing a Gnome Illusionist.

I don't think they have the resources to make nine new spells before the update goes live, but it'd be nice to have a few more spells.

So many canonical DnD illusions wouldn't really work in DDO, but there are a few that would. Plus there's no reason they can't make some of their own spells, they have before.

What'd really be cool would be a spell that summons illusory spikes, like that hallway in Partycrashers... will save or take damage for any mob that moves through it.

Livmo
02-12-2016, 10:36 AM
Broccoli Juice gives 6000SP over 1 minute. Bacon gives 6000HP over 1 minute. Both work only in the tavern.

Music to my eyes and TY very much!

I was hoping for faster tavern recovery. Esp. for mana since I cannot always get the ship.

That was what I was hoping for! Epic level amounts.

Cordovan
02-12-2016, 10:37 AM
I see nothing new in either increased crafting levels or the ability to make some of the types of items available in the new lootgen. If the only thing that's happening for Cannith crafting is fixing the inability to decon for essences, well that was needed, but it's not really a crafting pass. It's just updating the tables for the new lootgen.

Pretty disappointing. I hope that if you truly intend to do a real crafting pass that you give us the opportunity to evaluate it, and not just for a couple of days. The last major updates have given players woefully inadequate time to test out the new stuff & changes.

At this time the Cannith Crafting update is being pushed out of Update 30 so that we can have further time on it to consider what we should do with Cannith Crafting.

LongshotBro
02-12-2016, 10:39 AM
Just finished transcribbing both Gnome (http://ddowiki.com/page/Gnome_enhancements) and Deep Gnome (http://ddowiki.com/page/Deep_Gnome_enhancements) enhancement trees to the wiki. Enjoy.

Wow, my favorite epic destiny ability is now available at level 1 for 2AP
"Illusory Escape: When you tumble, you will phase out of reality briefly, passing through enemies as you do so."

Guess it's not that epic!

JOTMON
02-12-2016, 10:40 AM
At this time the Cannith Crafting update is being pushed out of Update 30 so that we can have further time on it to consider what we should do with Cannith Crafting.

Doom..

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 10:41 AM
Are there any plans to add some Illusion spells.

The Iconic Path is called earthen Illusionist, there are Illusion DC bonuses in the tree etc. It pretty obvious that the Devs plan on Gnomes to be good at Illusionist magic. However there are only 7 Illusion spells on the arcane list. of these only 2 really requires a save

Blur - a buff
Invisibility - a buff
Displacement - a buff
Hypno pattern - a debuff used to help get past will saves on enchantment spells
Phantasmal killer - an insta kill that requires 2 saves to kill or it does pitiful damage
Shadow walk - a nearly useless spell that could be used to sneak somewhere like we often use invis, but the graphics are so bad you can see the tree in front of your face
Invisibility, Mass


For us to play Illusionists in this game we are going to have to have more spells than these. and really, we need at least 1 additional illusion spell per spell level, so we really need at least 9 new spells. If there are no intentions of adding spells, I would be interested in hearing from a Dev as to how you envision playing a Gnome Illusionist.

I think 2 more good spells would do IMO necro casting kind of boils down to Finger, Wail, and Circle of Death. Add 2 more very strong Illusion spells and you can make a go at the school.

Weird as a 9th level spell would be a good option (will save to stun for x seconds, fort save to kill out right) it's like casting mass hold and wail at the same time, that's might be strong enough to make the school viable all on its own, but another strong CC spell at level 6, 7 or 8 would make things very interesting.

Livmo
02-12-2016, 10:45 AM
Why do the deep gnomes look like the children of the corn?

For the heads up. I'll add them here:



http://i.imgur.com/SKp0ECT.jpg


Gnome artificer first, then I'll do gnome warlock, etc.

Livmo
02-12-2016, 10:46 AM
+1

I second the motion on the hat. Already have the guild. The cosmeitc would be great! Moar cosmetics!

+2

Qezuzu
02-12-2016, 10:58 AM
I think 2 more good spells would do IMO necro casting kind of boils down to Finger, Wail, and Circle of Death

Those are the DC-based spells. In Necro there is also Death Aura, Energy Drain, Symbol of Death, Waves of Exhaustion, and a few more as far as commonly used spells go. If you want to count divines there is also Slay Living and Destruction.

Illusion spell selection is just completely barren, only Abjuration is in worse shape (though at least Abjuration has a lot of useful buffs. Divination I guess but it's not really set-up to be anything useful).

Xionanx
02-12-2016, 11:06 AM
At this time the Cannith Crafting update is being pushed out of Update 30 so that we can have further time on it to consider what we should do with Cannith Crafting.

I highly recommend you consider going the "Augment" route, IMO it would be best for the longevity of CC and long term "Ease" in maintaining it. If you check the current crafting thread, I have outlined the many virtues of switching to such a system.

If you decide to keep the current system with just minor changes then IMO you are wasting your time. Having a system you have to constantly go back and update just seems like a pain for a dev team that is already time strapped.

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 11:08 AM
Those are the DC-based spells.

Right but those DC-based spells are the once that make people double down on Necro.



In Necro there is also Death Aura, Energy Drain, Symbol of Death, Waves of Exhaustion, and a few more as far as commonly used spells go. If you want to count divines there is also Slay Living and Destruction.

I'm not against more Illusion spells, but I'm for adding enough spells to make the school viable as a main school to do that you only really need 2 more. 2 Spells should be with in the range of what the devs can do in this update.

Kind of being realistic with my expectations.

Qezuzu
02-12-2016, 11:14 AM
R
Kind of being realistic with my expectations.

Oh absolutely, I'm just saying that there's really no way they can make Illusion spec as impactful school unless they just straight up release Weird (which honestly could make insta-kill builds a little crazy... Archmage PK SLA+Gnome PK SLA+normal PK+Finger+Weird+Wail+CoD)...

We definitely need something though.

Holymunchkin
02-12-2016, 11:40 AM
I think 2 more good spells would do IMO necro casting kind of boils down to Finger, Wail, and Circle of Death. Add 2 more very strong Illusion spells and you can make a go at the school.

Weird as a 9th level spell would be a good option (will save to stun for x seconds, fort save to kill out right) it's like casting mass hold and wail at the same time, that's might be strong enough to make the school viable all on its own, but another strong CC spell at level 6, 7 or 8 would make things very interesting.

Not 2. 6. 6 spells.
For me to be an illusionist I need more than 4 spells to cast lol

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 11:53 AM
Not 2. 6. 6 spells.
For me to be an illusionist I need more than 4 spells to cast lol

Do you think there even a off chance they will add 6 new spells?

2 new spells + PK gets illusion to 3 good spells (amusing they don't turbine and pick bad spells for the new ones)
3 good spells + all the other good spells from other schools that don't really need high DC's to be useful and you have more then enough spells to make a go at illusionist.

Is that ideal no but its at least a realistic option.

Holymunchkin
02-12-2016, 12:21 PM
Seriously, who cares for an earth elemental summon?

there is already enough usesless stuff in the gnome tree. please fran/reddragondude don't get more garbage. you can scroll an earth elemental


At this time the Cannith Crafting update is being pushed out of Update 30 so that we can have further time on it to consider what we should do with Cannith Crafting.

is fighter pass being pushed out?

will there be a ranger pt2 pass?


Do you think there even a off chance they will add 6 new spells?

2 new spells + PK gets illusion to 3 good spells (amusing they don't turbine and pick bad spells for the new ones)
3 good spells + all the other good spells from other schools that don't really need high DC's to be useful and you have more then enough spells to make a go at illusionist.

Is that ideal no but its at least a realistic option.

I care what they need to sell the class (and my continued subscription / involvement in the game) to me. I will not buy into 3 gnome iconic past lives to get 3 DC's on one very difficult to land spell---and a color spray thing that is merely a will save and must be spammed for any usefulness. I'm not the only one that may pass on an unfocused release. The obviously shoddy quality of an "earthen illusionist" that has 1 potent illusionist spell is sad for the game. I do not want pathetic things to go forward. Even diehard fans will be put off by this.

I don't mind paying 2500 turbine points for something I'll use. I will not pay 1250 turbine points for something I won't.
Every update should revitalize the game in some way. Warlock made lots of people TR---and I heard lots of positive comments about this. It was time.
MoD gave us a very interesting and difficult endgame quest with real loot.

Unfortunately the 3 new raids have had less of an impact on endgame than DoJ did---which is interesting.

Balance changes should upset the order of things in favor of the underused---whilst moving to a level playing field.

Zebedar
02-12-2016, 12:46 PM
TR Gnomes aren't giant. That's just an illusion. Darn tricksters. Nothing to see here. ;)

Oh so they actually do have some new illusion spells.

Ligraph
02-12-2016, 12:47 PM
I don't think they have the resources to make nine new spells before the update goes live, but it'd be nice to have a few more spells.

So many canonical DnD illusions wouldn't really work in DDO, but there are a few that would. Plus there's no reason they can't make some of their own spells, they have before.

What'd really be cool would be a spell that summons illusory spikes, like that hallway in Partycrashers... will save or take damage for any mob that moves through it.

That would be cool. Or, what if we get an "Illusion Wall" spell that mobs must path around unless they spot check? Box yourself in...

IronClan
02-12-2016, 12:47 PM
We need more illusions, how about adding a better version of the Dwarven "earthgrab" Dragonmark special ability as an SLA. Could even make this an illusion spell and make it transparent illusory appearing so it would be a Earth themed illusion CC spell... This would help the illusionist thing be an actual viable playstyle.

Mirror image spell
Blink spell
Weird spell
Bigby's illusion spell series

Please add these to the Arcane spell selection of all Sorcs and Wizards.

Zebedar
02-12-2016, 12:49 PM
We are looking into character copy. That said, the purpose of this preview is to check out gnomes, so please do that rather than copy characters over.

It's not reasonable to expect us to be satisfied with that, or see that as reflective of the game we play.

Maybe you missed the point; I, like many many experienced players wanted to copy over established characters so that they could TR those characters into Gnomes and DGs so I could get right to testing and playing the new race instead of having to waste hours doing TR cycles and assembling gear and crafting so I could test them in near game conditions. Fun fact, almost all of us who will be running Gnomes, and purchasing the Gnomes will be doing it from our established characters as opposed to starting brand new toons. Instead I spent all last night trying to build versions of my established past lives and gear while doing very little actual testing, as did most players. Very little questing was going on because most everyone else was doing much the same so they could get toons to a state that they could see how Gnomes would really play rather than just first lifer blanks.

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 12:51 PM
I care what they need to sell the class (and my continued subscription / involvement in the game) to me. I will not buy into 3 gnome iconic past lives to get 3 DC's on one very difficult to land spell---and a color spray thing that is merely a will save and must be spammed for any usefulness. I'm not the only one that may pass on an unfocused release. The obviously shoddy quality of an "earthen illusionist" that has 1 potent illusionist spell is sad for the game. I do not want pathetic things to go forward. Even diehard fans will be put off by this.

I don't mind paying 2500 turbine points for something I'll use. I will not pay 1250 turbine points for something I won't.
Every update should revitalize the game in some way. Warlock made lots of people TR---and I heard lots of positive comments about this. It was time.
MoD gave us a very interesting and difficult endgame quest with real loot.

Unfortunately the 3 new raids have had less of an impact on endgame than DoJ did---which is interesting.

Balance changes should upset the order of things in favor of the underused---whilst moving to a level playing field.

My premise is that Weird + some other CC spell (in my head its as good a earthquake) would make Illusion a viable option for a wizard build. Note that that is still a wizard build its not going to change what a wizard does fundamentally. Wierd + a good CC spell would put Illusion some where between Necro and Enchantment less killing then Necro but more CC, thats at least the balance I would look for.

That said I don't think a race can do what you are looking for, a new race isn't going to offer anything that didn't exist before unlike a new class like warlock. It might open up some new class combo or bring a class that was previously seen as week up to the current power level but I cant see a new race playing so different from other races that It adds something new. Are your expectations of what a new race brings realistic?

The 3 new raids aren't really new are they? MOD and DoJ were new raids (even if MOD reused the environment assets its not the same raid as Abbot). Also not every content update is going to be as much of a hit as others, I doubt they have ever had anything hit as well as original shroud and I don't think anything has hit as well as TOD since TOD. Your not wrong though new updates should excite people and make them want to play.

IronClan
02-12-2016, 12:52 PM
Oh and please don't listen to the strange people who want a useless earth ele to replace the actually potentially useful Phantasmal killer SLA please don't replace it with a useless earth ele summons. If you want to listen to them, please add the summons IN ADDITION and not as a replacement. and then go about making it good enough/scale up so it's worth bothering with.

patang01
02-12-2016, 12:53 PM
We are looking into character copy. That said, the purpose of this preview is to check out gnomes, so please do that rather than copy characters over.

I'd love to but it boils down to having effective gear and such to really push the limit of it. We can't tell you what's working or not working without a fair comparison.

Qezuzu
02-12-2016, 12:54 PM
That would be cool. Or, what if we get an "Illusion Wall" spell that mobs must path around unless they spot check? Box yourself in...

Something tells me that players being able to create physics objects would cause infinite lag.


We need more illusions, how about adding a better version of the Dwarven "earthgrab" Dragonmark special ability as an SLA. Could even make this an illusion spell and make it transparent illusory appearing so it would be a Earth themed illusion CC spell... This would help the illusionist thing be an actual viable playstyle.

Mirror image spell
Blink spell
Weird spell
Bigby's illusion spell series

Please add these to the Arcane spell selection of all Sorcs and Wizards.

There's plenty of ideas that would work. I mean, it's illusion... there's tons of stuff that would make sense because you're making the mob believe something.

patang01
02-12-2016, 12:54 PM
Doom..

...ish

Zebedar
02-12-2016, 01:02 PM
I'd love to but it boils down to having effective gear and such to really push the limit of it. We can't tell you what's working or not working without a fair comparison.

Exactly.

Holymunchkin
02-12-2016, 01:03 PM
...a new race isn't going to offer anything that didn't exist before....

isn't this false?

bladeforged? --> funky fresh (and op, but that's beside the point)
pdk? --> useful PL (at the time), and funky fresh for bards, and all sorts of builds
shadar-kai? --> a racial abundant step clicky, that was superduper at the time

sun-elf? --> iconic monkcher fodder, and pure fvs light spammers


What are we getting for synergistic build options with gnomes?

An "illusionist" (lol) and a pure light repeater rogue with +1 threat that can't get killer stacks (lol).

cdbd3rd
02-12-2016, 01:07 PM
the /laugh emote is missing a voice element

...


Gah. Good luck with this one. I gave up and haven't actually tested it in ages, but Horcs were without their laughs for years - may still be... :(


(Leaving the real feedback to the caster players.)

Aelonwy
02-12-2016, 01:08 PM
What'd really be cool would be a spell that summons illusory spikes, like that hallway in Partycrashers... will save or take damage for any mob that moves through it.

I don't know how much effort would be involved but they could re-skin Blade Barrier to maybe look translucent and pinkish-purple and give it a will save instead of reflex save and ta-da, a new Illusion spell. No need for new animation work.

But they really, really need to make the level 9 spell Weird because that was the one that every illusionist craved for their arsenal.

They could also make an illusory version of Earthquake to mimic one use of the PnP spell Illusory Terrain, although the PnP spell is way more useful it simply wouldn't work in DDO. Again Will save instead of reflex.

The sad thing is Illusion in PnP has so much more of a role-playing, story-telling aspect that just can not be utilized much in DDO - at least not by the players. For an example of this, think of the Sschindylryn quests and the Disguise Illusion cast by the War Wizards.

lyrecono
02-12-2016, 01:10 PM
Deep gnomes clothes don't appear, tattoo doesn't show up in character creation.
they look terrible, the tattoo and dopey empty eye thing creeps me the F out.
the stats are incorrect
-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma are the correct stats

the umd in the racial tree is useless, a pure barb can easily reach a 58 umd, probably more with effort, a rog/arty/wiz where this race seems to have been created for should reach higher without needing the umd enh.
we're also missing 2 dragon marks feats

does this mean we'll be seeing a stronger house Sivis presence in Stormreach? a post office? a library? an enclave?
Now that i mentioned it? how about a token house Tharashk presence?

And really? 2X1295 for that? should have been 995 for the heroic race at best.

1295 for 3 months of deep gnomes tr lives and 9 mrr on your toons..... meh, an insult on the lore
i wouldn't pay for the heroic race and only for the iconic if i was a completionist pl hoarder.

The thing is how useful is the 9 mrr in the long run when every few years the dev's shake up the playing field and destroy/invalidate the hard work?

Edit, nice work on the test environment there, i had to make a lv 4, go by sir poinsalot and buy the frigging races to test them, not really user friendly.

Ayseifn
02-12-2016, 01:20 PM
My premise is that Weird + some other CC spell (in my head its as good a earthquake) would make Illusion a viable option for a wizard build. Note that that is still a wizard build its not going to change what a wizard does fundamentally. Wierd + a good CC spell would put Illusion some where between Necro and Enchantment less killing then Necro but more CC, thats at least the balance I would look for.


So basically just weird then? Color spray is also in the gnome tree and while not as good as earthquake it's only 2 SP at tier 3 for a 10 second mezz.

That said I still don't think Illusion would be a viable school to burn feat and stuff on, but spending ~18AP in the Deep Gnome tree and the rest in PM(and SF: necro) with a bit in AM might be alright.

IronClan
02-12-2016, 01:24 PM
At this time the Cannith Crafting update is being pushed out of Update 30 so that we can have further time on it to consider what we should do with Cannith Crafting.

Keep it simple extend current cannith crafting recipes into epic add a few new wrinkles that don't currently exist and allow a little cross pollination (like erase one new lootgen affix and add one Cannith crafting affix to this item)

Where the two systems have crossover (stats for example) allow crafted items to only go within about 75 to 80% of a max roll item...

So I could craft a +14 stat ML30 with maybe +4 insightful stat, but I would still find a +15 +6 insightful new loot item to be sexy. The crafted one holds me over until I find the rare double max roll item.

Also keep the current situation of what affixes are allowed on what items intact. So cannith crafting might allow +14 CHA on goggles, where lootgen can only have it on a cloak (or whatever the case may be). This keeps the two systems from trampling each other. this also leaves named items plenty of design space: a armor, or shield with 16 Charisma, or Gloves with +8 insightful... allowing a diverse loot puzzle mini game where one system doesn't obviate the other.

Simple.

Also I'd like to repeat the cool idea I already posted of using the Dwarven Earthgrab Dragonmark ability, making the visual transparent, typing it as an Illusion (will) spell and calling it something like "Bigby's Hand". but instead of putting it in Gnome tree make it an arcane spell book spell.

Easy Blink spell (no new animation) re-use the Shadowfell Regalia Outfit visual effect.
Duration 30 seconds, cooldown 45 seconds (I envisioned as a spamable active defensive strategy, where it's power is balanced by the need to use it actively and not "always on")
Effect gives stacking bonuses to the following for 30 seconds:
5% dodge+Cap+Max dex bonus (whatever your current dodge is, it boosts it by 5%
5% incorp
5% concealment
10% Minimum AC miss chance (mobs miss on a 2 roll instead of just 1)
Upon use you are invisible until next action + Illusion DC Diplo effect in an AOE around you.

Iriale
02-12-2016, 01:33 PM
These three comments are inconsistent with your argument. While I agree that DDO has not always been verbatim true to the lore in multiple cases, the fact remains that player character deep gnomes were indeed granted the ability to summon earth elementals, specifically in the AD&D book, Unearthed Arcana, page 11 if you care to check the source material. That you personally dislike summons is irrelevant if your basis is that it clashes with the lore, because it does not.
I don't dislike summons. But summons in DDO are useless. Do you want a summon that only works in early heroics, when the iconics start at lv 15? If I could think that the summon will be viable… but it wont be. There are not viable summons in the game. I think that devs will need think a tougher summon that level up with the gnome (maybe like the skeleton pet). And this is a ton of work… do you think that devs will have time for this? I don't think so. And between a useful illusion and a not useful summon, I prefer the useful skill. For this I want prestiges instead iconics. If they sell us prestige trees for the level 15 races (and maybe for the basic races), we will play the concept that we want, will be more lore consistent, and we will get someday a wizard sun elf (the true iconic of the race) and a tree with tougher earth summons for the deep gnome (this tree will need more dev time than devs have now…)



Additionally, at no point in any of the reference materials 3.5 and prior was I able to find svirfneblin rangers referenced as either iconic, prestige, or favored. I was able to find that the surface gnome Favored Class was Bard (Source: DnD Player's Handbook 3.5 Edition, page 17) and the deep gnome Favored Class was Rogue (Source: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Gnomes,_Deep%E2%80%94Svirfneblin_%28Race%29).
In 3.5 the preferred class of deep gnomes is rogue. In AD&D they are told as rogues, ranger and fighters, and at less frequency, wizards.

I said ranger because rogue, the true iconic deep gnome, is in another iconic and ranger is not inconsistent with the story of the race in D&D. Certainly is more appropriate for a deep mage than an illusionist wizard.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gnome.htm#svirfneblin

Surface gnomes are bard as iconic in 3.X and illusionist wizard in AD&D, Tinkers in dragonlance 2nd & 3th edition.

Really I was not inconsistent, but my English is not good and I not always know how explain my arguments.


Interestingly, another poster brought up the fact that svirfneblin should have been a WIS race, which is more true to the canon; DnD 3.5 SRD has svirfnbelin with +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, –2 Strength, –4 Charisma. Surface Gnomes as a comparison had only 2 modified stats, +2 CON and -2 STR. But yeah, at no point were they given INT bonuses. I think the fine folks at turbine may be thinking that because there is so much history with illusory magic and gnomes and that illusionists were wizard specialists, that it goes to figure they'd get INT bonus...but nope...that's not at all the case. Didn't take a whole lot of effort to grab my PHB off my shelf and read the gnome race to find out the actual bonuses. Maybe I'll mail turbine HQ a copy of the source material their game is based on. Could be handy.
Yes, if you see the link that I posted to the SRD 3.5 you can see the 3.5 stats of the race.

Devs are being inconsistent, but it is not new. But I have to say, I am feeling cheated by you, devs. It is a dirty trick sells us a wizard iconic as cleric iconic, and a wis race with the first wizard level fixed. Do you want sell more reincarnations hearts with this? Ok, you don't deserve a vip subscription then. Not mine. This is too much, devs. At least for me.

I guess that it is late for stop this iconic no-sense, but you yet can turn the iconics in prestiges. At very last with this we will can to play the right class with the race…



There are many differences between the actual tabletop game's actual rules history and the DDO version's implementation. Some of that is by the inherent nature of this being online versus tabletop. But a great amount of it is based on decisions that have no relation to source material and I do agree with you and wish also that Turbine would stop making it up as they go along with so much already in print in the canon that is easily translated to the MMO with already-in-game resources.
I understand the need of differences with the pnp game. I am not against some differences. My gripe with this dev team is that they create too many differences that are not needed. And they should think in how many players are here because this is a D&D-based game and not a generic MMO.


--------


And yes, we need more illusion spells or the school will not viable. Devs, do you know the HUGE investment that need the DC casting? DC casting is the playstyle more costly. Do you know that YOU promote the school specialization and that there are HUGE differences between our first school and the others? If you know, you know that illusion is not a viable first school for specialization. And if you don't know… play your game a little more, please.

Iriale
02-12-2016, 01:43 PM
they look terrible,
the look is terrible? :/ Why the iconics always are horrible???

Devs, get us a nice look! And fix the look of PDKs, please, it is an aesthetic aberration!

lyrecono
02-12-2016, 01:54 PM
the look is terrible? :/ Why the iconics always are horrible???

Devs, get us a nice look! And fix the look of PDKs, please, it is an aesthetic aberration!

i agree, most iconics look terrible.
Emo clown rogues, hobgoblin faced fighters, punk paladins and now alchemist gnomes rocking out on acid (with bulbous bug eyes and a horrible tattoo)

atleast you can hide the entire face on morning lords with their standard helm until they get sightless

Ayseifn
02-12-2016, 01:59 PM
Once the new shiny aspect wore off and I tried to make builds out of these I found the AP too tight just like every other race, admittedly I play melees not casters so maybe there's some workable builds there. The issue is that all the rebalanced classes have a ton of great things to spend AP on and some of them have you doing silly things like taking tier 5 in one tree and core 18 or 20 in another leaving very little AP to go to those racial trees.

The racial trees either need to be competitive with these new class ones, the built in for free stuff has to be as good as what humans get(1 feat, 1 AP racial dmg boost and +1skill per level) or some combination of the two.


More bugs:

The new AA ability has string table errors and isn't selectable for racial AA's, well at least for Morninglord anyway. Works fine for the class tree though.
The increase to dodge cap from the gnome trees doesn't actually increase it, not sure about the MDB was too lazy to test what was stacking with what. :/

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 02:01 PM
isn't this false?

bladeforged? --> funky fresh (and op, but that's beside the point)
pdk? --> useful PL (at the time), and funky fresh for bards, and all sorts of builds
shadar-kai? --> a racial abundant step clicky, that was superduper at the time

sun-elf? --> iconic monkcher fodder, and pure fvs light spammers


What are we getting for synergistic build options with gnomes?

An "illusionist" (lol) and a pure light repeater rogue with +1 threat that can't get killer stacks (lol).

Bladforged = self healing Fighters, Rogues, and maybe Barbarians but Cocoon existed before this so it was just an incremental increase in power (probably more a leap in power but its not new or fresh).

PDK = Char to hit and Damage this opened up CC+Melee Bards (I guess) but really loosing 4- 6 (+2 base and +6 level ups = 8 which is +4) points of damage per hit on a Charisma based melee Bard before that really wasn't going to brake your melee assuming you were max out, all this did was take the CC+Melee bards that already existed and make it much easier to work and opened the build up to less maxed players again nothing new here.

SDK lets see Monks, FVS, Druid, and Rogues all had leap abilities before that nothing new here, honestly I feel like you are stretching with calling this superduper, its a nice ability but how many people can honestly say they picked SDK as a race for it?

Sun-Elf what do they add to monkchar that elf does?

Its not false, in this game race is one of if not the least important choice you make, the different between a Gnome, Drow, Human and Elf wizard are 99.99% superficial. I don't see this changing with out a massive rework of both Races and Classes.

UurlockYgmeov
02-12-2016, 02:02 PM
At this time the Cannith Crafting update is being pushed out of Update 30 so that we can have further time on it to consider what we should do with Cannith Crafting.

Makes sense - April is the 5 year anniversary of the introduction of Cannith Crafting back in Update 9. Yes, 9.

Iriale
02-12-2016, 02:08 PM
Also I'd like to repeat the cool idea I already posted of using the Dwarven Earthgrab Dragonmark ability, making the visual transparent, typing it as an Illusion (will) spell and calling it something like "Bigby's Hand". but instead of putting it in Gnome tree make it an arcane spell book spell.

Easy Blink spell (no new animation) re-use the Shadowfell Regalia Outfit visual effect.
Duration 30 seconds, cooldown 45 seconds (I envisioned as a spamable active defensive strategy, where it's power is balanced by the need to use it actively and not "always on")
Effect gives stacking bonuses to the following for 30 seconds:
5% dodge+Cap+Max dex bonus (whatever your current dodge is, it boosts it by 5%
5% incorp
5% concealment
10% Minimum AC miss chance (mobs miss on a 2 roll instead of just 1)
Upon use you are invisible until next action + Illusion DC Diplo effect in an AOE around you.
i am for new spells (and yours is nice, good job) and we NEED a spell pass!

But... blink is not an illusion spell. It is a transmutation spell (transmutation need more spells, too)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blink.htm

No more lore inconsistencies, please.

Iriale
02-12-2016, 02:14 PM
Bladforged = self healing Fighters, Rogues, and maybe Barbarians but Cocoon existed before this so it was just an incremental increase in power (probably more a leap in power but its not new or fresh).

PDK = Char to hit and Damage this opened up CC+Melee Bards (I guess) but really loosing 4- 6 (+2 base and +6 level ups = 8 which is +4) points of damage per hit on a Charisma based melee Bard before that really wasn't going to brake your melee assuming you were max out, all this did was take the CC+Melee bards that already existed and make it much easier to work and opened the build up to less maxed players again nothing new here.

SDK lets see Monks, FVS, Druid, and Rogues all had leap abilities before that nothing new here, honestly I feel like you are stretching with calling this superduper, its a nice ability but how many people can honestly say they picked SDK as a race for it?

Sun-Elf what do they add to monkchar that elf does?

Its not false, in this game race is one of if not the least important choice you make, the different between a Gnome, Drow, Human and Elf wizard are 99.99% superficial. I don't see this changing with out a massive rework of both Races and Classes.
It depends on the build. DC casters need every DC point and the race is important. Race is not important for weapon users.

If you want a CC & melee bard you are better with regular human race + a mix of swashbuckler and spellsinger. You don't lose the (very nice) capstone and get cha to damage, and DC increases. PDK is not so sexy for bards.

IronClan
02-12-2016, 02:16 PM
i am for new spells (and yours is nice, good job) and we NEED a spell pass!

But... blink is not an illusion spell. It is a transmutation spell (transmutation need more spells, too)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blink.htm

No more lore inconsistencies, please.

Mine is an illusion, which is why it can't drop you off a cliff :) Look it's not like they are just waiting to put more spells into the game and they need to reserve blink for when they have the time to make it actually move you around like a mini abundant step that spams you around... so an illusory form of blink that makes you appear elsewhere is probably as close as will can hope for. And this is an excuse to do it.

Call it shadow manipulation blink if you care about the lore.

FranOhmsford
02-12-2016, 02:18 PM
i am for new spells (and yours is nice, good job) and we NEED a spell pass!

But... blink is not an illusion spell. It is a transmutation spell (transmutation need more spells, too)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blink.htm

No more lore inconsistencies, please.

Blink is a teleportation effect - It seems a lot of people are getting it mixed up with Mirror Image.

P.S. We now have the tech in DDO for Mirror Image - It's in the new House C Quest.

Iriale
02-12-2016, 02:18 PM
i agree, most iconics look terrible.
Emo clown rogues, hobgoblin faced fighters, punk paladins and now alchemist gnomes rocking out on acid (with bulbous bug eyes and a horrible tattoo)

atleast you can hide the entire face on morning lords with their standard helm until they get sightless
yes, their looks are horrible :( But for me, the worst offender is PDK. I hate play pdks because they are so ugly! Morninglords are ok, they are elves with other skin color (male elves always have had ugly faces in DDO lol )

And another horrible iconic... seriously, devs... aesthetics matter! Maybe you need rename the iconics to "ugly prestige toons" then!

FranOhmsford
02-12-2016, 02:19 PM
Mine is an illusion, which is why it can't drop you off a cliff :) Look it's not like they are just waiting to put more spells into the game and they need to reserve blink for when they have the time to make it actually move you around like a mini abundant step that spams you around... so an illusory form of blink that makes you appear elsewhere is probably as close as will can hope for. And this is an excuse to do it.

Call it shadow manipulation blink if you care about the lore.

Why not just ask for Mirror Image?

Iriale
02-12-2016, 02:24 PM
Mine is an illusion, which is why it can't drop you off a cliff :) Look it's not like they are just waiting to put more spells into the game and they need to reserve blink for when they have the time to make it actually move you around like a mini abundant step that spams you around... so an illusory form of blink that makes you appear elsewhere is probably as close as will can hope for. And this is an excuse to do it.

Call it shadow manipulation blink if you care about the lore.
yes, i care for the lore. Use other name, and maybe we will get a blink spell in the future. Transmutation needs love too :)


Why not just ask for Mirror Image?
yup. It's an iconic illusion spell and I think that is not difficult to implement. Devs can correct me if I'm wrong.

We need a spell pass. Seriously. Devs should think in a date for starting with this. A whole update with only spell updates, or many updates with consistent but small modifications. They can't postponed it indefinitely. It is needed!

Cleanincubus
02-12-2016, 02:34 PM
At this time the Cannith Crafting update is being pushed out of Update 30 so that we can have further time on it to consider what we should do with Cannith Crafting.

As long as items can be deconstructed while we wait, I'm all for taking the time to get it right...as long as that doesn't mean "forgetting" about it and pushing it off in favor of something else (looking at you Ranger pass part 2.)

Also as long as it means that all the current materials aren't rendered useless, by some new system or hybrid system. I put a lot of time and effort into gathering essences (purchased [over 1M plat spent], deconstructed EVERYTHING that I considered vendor trash, and pooled them from all my characters.) I even TR'd my crafter into a Human Artificer (Dragonmark Mark of Making) specifically for the crafting bonuses. I also never leveled up the cheesy way with vials (didn't even know it existed until the Patch or Update hit Live.) It's not just about keeping existing Levels for us who have heavily invested in the system, and I hope this knowledge is taken with the utmost importance, when the final decision is made.

IronClan
02-12-2016, 02:35 PM
It depends on the build. DC casters need every DC point and the race is important. Race is not important for weapon users.

If you want a CC & melee bard you are better with regular human race + a mix of swashbuckler and spellsinger. You don't lose the (very nice) capstone and get cha to damage, and DC increases. PDK is not so sexy for bards.

Disagree 1/3rd CHA mod to tacticals is wonderful for frozen fury and spinning ice. This allows so much freedom in terms of what else you can do (how you DPS and how good that DPS is, how many bard levels you need, What multiclass possibilities are open to you, how much AP/Twist/feats you need to invest in tactics DC's etc.) with the build that it's hard to explain without making it sound OP and getting the Dev's attention and making them sniff around with the nerf bat. In any case why on earth use a Human when you get the same Feat benefit and damage boost with PDK plus the 1/3 CHA mod to tacticals?

IronClan
02-12-2016, 02:38 PM
Why not just ask for Mirror Image?

I did. They function differently giving us 2 new illusion spells instead of one.

Again Shadow manipulation is a lore thing so the lore concern has been addessed and we can move on.

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 02:43 PM
It depends on the build. DC casters need every DC point and the race is important. Race is not important for weapon users.

Every single DC cast build sees human as an alternative build option, that kind of kills your argument. Is +2 to DC the optimal build choice for a DC caster yes, but its not going to brake you if you don't go that way especially if you are looking at 6 AP and a bonus feat as the trade.



If you want a CC & melee bard you are better with regular human race + a mix of swashbuckler and spellsinger. You don't lose the (very nice) capstone and get cha to damage, and DC increases. PDK is not so sexy for bards.

Though I disagree with you as to which the optimal choice, you are saying the exact thing I was. I was point out that PDK brought nothing essentially new to the table it just made it easier to access what already existed.

Cordovan
02-12-2016, 02:46 PM
The Lamannia Character Copy tool is once again available here: https://transfers.ddo.com/en/character-transfers

The copy tool is currently working so quickly that it is providing basically no feedback on the page, but the characters are copying over. As per usual, if you run into an issue, try logging into and then out of the character on live, and make sure you aren't accidentally sending the same item on two different characters.

Aletys
02-12-2016, 02:50 PM
I looked at the iconic Gnome last night, and while there are a few nice enhancements in the racial tree, the lack of offensive illusion spells is pretty sad. Two new spells? One of which appears marginal at best? That's it?

While I now understand why there are so many illusion focus items in the new lootgen (nearly all of which have been vendor trash so far), I wouldn't waste my time spec'ing any wizard for Illusion with the current set of spells. So, unless this changes, I won't be doing any gnome illusionists. And, since they're ugly as heck, I probably won't make one at all. Not sure the racial tree is worth bothering with right now. TBD.

If I wasn't VIP (therefore get the two new races for free), I would never waste my money buying the new classes if this is all there's going to be. If they're not free to VIP, well, see previous sentence.

Iriale
02-12-2016, 02:54 PM
Disagree 1/3rd CHA mod to tacticals is wonderful for frozen fury and spinning ice. This allows so much freedom in terms of what else you can do (how you DPS and how good that DPS is, how many bard levels you need, What multiclass possibilities are open to you, how much AP/Twist/feats you need to invest in tactics DC's etc.) with the build that it's hard to explain without making it sound OP and getting the Dev's attention and making them sniff around with the nerf bat. In any case why on earth use a Human when you get the same Feat benefit and damage boost with PDK plus the 1/3 CHA mod to tacticals?
lol. i understand, I am too tired of nerfs.
Well, true, the race is good too for bards, but with the cost of +1 reincarnation heart if you want the casptone. For me, and since that I can build a nice melee/spell CC bard with a regular human, don't worth. As the concept of the iconic (fighter humans) PDKs are so-so. Yes, they are good for other classes, but seriously.... then eliminate the first level fixed!

But heh... I hate the actual iconics. Seriously, I hate them: morninglords are not cleric iconics, shadar-kai look ugly and don't have racial features, PDKs are HORRIBLE (in look). And paladins for the lord of blades??? LG guys for an iconic evil boss... well... it's possible (this is eberron), but not iconic. The new deep gnome... more wrong lore, ugly look, and not enough illusion spells for the concept...

Seriously. I think that is difficult that designers could have done worse with the iconics. All iconics feel like unfinished, poorly designed and over-prized. With the aggravation of the hearts +1. If devs have not bothered to create truly iconics, why the first class level fixed? Not for reasons of lore; then... is for to abuse us and sell more hearts? And you know? I do not mind paying a subscription, but being taken for a fool and to abuse my patience is too much for me.

Aletys
02-12-2016, 02:58 PM
At this time the Cannith Crafting update is being pushed out of Update 30 so that we can have further time on it to consider what we should do with Cannith Crafting.
A bit disappointing, but I can live with at least being able to deconn for essences again. As long as it actually does get done, of course, and doesn't simply get pushed back into the forever forgotten back burner.

How about at least allowing us to continue gaining crafting XP past level 150 while we're waiting for the pass? I believe you did that on one of the level cap raises. The level cap stays where it is till the pass comes through, but you can continue to accumulate & bank that XP.

eris2323
02-12-2016, 03:00 PM
Well, true, the race is good too for bards, but with the cost of +1 reincarnation heart if you want the casptone. For me, and since that I can build a nice melee/spell CC bard with a regular human, don't worth. As the concept of the iconic (fighter humans) PDKs are so-so. Yes, they are good for other classes, but seriously.... then eliminate the first level fixed!


Iconics would be a lot more appealing to many people if they removed the stupid requirement of a fixed class at first level.

Because it boils down to this: You want me to buy an iconic, then can never play that iconic as the class I want, unless I either work with the penalty of being an iconic and take the 1st level assigned to me, or, I can spend REAL MONEY AGAIN, to use a lesser heart. So you want me to pay twice - and not only twice, I pay once for the iconic, AND for each and every character I create as iconic I am limited by the stupid class unless I buy a lesser heart for EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER I EVER MAKE with it.

This whole system is stupid; an easy fix: give a +1 lesser heart to every iconic created by anyone who buys the iconic, OR remove the stupid requirement of set classes for level 1. The second option is better, because even if you give me a +1 lesser heart, I have to waste the time to create the char up to level 15, then do it ALL OVER AGAIN with the lesser heart... Such a time waste.

Not buying gnome (or probably ANY iconic, anymore), myself - I'm sick of buying things twice.

Iriale
02-12-2016, 03:00 PM
Every single DC cast build sees human as an alternative build option, that kind of kills your argument. Is +2 to DC the optimal build choice for a DC caster yes, but its not going to brake you if you don't go that way especially if you are looking at 6 AP and a bonus feat as the trade.




Though I disagree with you as to which the optimal choice, you are saying the exact thing I was. I was point out that PDK brought nothing essentially new to the table it just made it easier to access what already existed.
Well, it don't kill my argument. DCs are stupidly high in LE. Lose +2 DC HURTS. And more if you want a toon that is more than a CC bot (we need dps for complete the quests, you know, and this need some DC sacrifices) +2 DC free for race is a big thing.

If you don't play LE is different, of course.

Iriale
02-12-2016, 03:05 PM
Iconics would be a lot more appealing to many people if they removed the stupid requirement of a fixed class at first level.

Because it boils down to this: You want me to buy an iconic, then can never play that iconic as the class I want, unless I either work with the penalty of being an iconic and take the 1st level assigned to me, or, I can spend REAL MONEY AGAIN, to use a lesser heart. So you want me to pay twice - and not only twice, I pay once for the iconic, AND for each and every character I create as iconic I am limited by the stupid class unless I buy a lesser heart for EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER I EVER MAKE with it.

This whole system is stupid; an easy fix: give a +1 lesser heart to every iconic created by anyone who buys the iconic, OR remove the stupid requirement of set classes for level 1. The second option is better, because even if you give me a +1 lesser heart, I have to waste the time to create the char up to level 15, then do it ALL OVER AGAIN with the lesser heart... Such a time waste.

Not buying gnome (or probably ANY iconic, anymore), myself - I'm sick of buying things twice.
I understand you. I feel the same.

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 03:13 PM
Well, it don't kill my argument. DCs are stupidly high in LE. Lose +2 DC HURTS. And more if you want a toon that is more than a CC bot (we need dps for complete the quests, you know, and this need some DC sacrifices) +2 DC free for race is a big thing.

If you don't play LE is different, of course.

+2 DC is not Free, +1 is free, the second +1 costs at least 6 AP in the racial tree.

Your argument is that race for DC casters is not the least important choice made, this is killed off by the fact that a race that gets no +DC and no +Stats is the second best choice for every single DC caster build and in some cases the best (Divines). +2 DC will not make or brake a build so it does not HURT, as you said you need more then just DC's for most caster class the extra feat from Human goes a very long way in boosting that aspect of the class.

In LE if you are on the Die with a reasonable chance to land a spell its not because of the race you select. Race is the least important part of what got you on the die in fact as your class, gear, build, destiny, and twists all add more DC then race.

Augon
02-12-2016, 03:24 PM
Right but those DC-based spells are the once that make people double down on Necro.

I'm not against more Illusion spells, but I'm for adding enough spells to make the school viable as a main school to do that you only really need 2 more. 2 Spells should be with in the range of what the devs can do in this update.

Kind of being realistic with my expectations.

I understand what you are saying about being realistic, but I am saying that if they are going to add a race that is aimed at being an illusionist, there needs to be some illusion spells. The list I had in my earlier post was the COMPLETE list of all illusion spells. There are 35 necro spells. While the ones you listed are the main ones, there are at least half dozen more that any decent Necro caster is going to cast regularly and most of the rest (that aren't buffs) may be good situationaly. Of the 7 Illusion spells, only two even calls for a save and only one of those has any chance of directly damaging an enemy but it requires two saves. Two more spells is not going to make this race very compelling as an Illusionist.

Please note, I did not ask if they were going to start creating spells now. I asked if there are going to be any and if not how they envision the earthen illusionist to be played. I assume the Devs can read the same wiki I can and know there are few illusion spells. I assume they have already started working on them and that they are near completion but not released to Lam yet. (Devs can be a sneaky little bunch) Lam is usually released in stages. I think it is very reasonably for them to have created 9 new spells over the course of the last couple months. Some could be as simple as a illusion school versions of other schools' spells. It doesn't have to be over the top, just something that the new buffs to Illusion DC can be applied to.

Iriale
02-12-2016, 03:25 PM
+2 DC is not Free, +1 is free, the second +1 costs at least 6 AP in the racial tree.

Your argument is that race for DC casters is not the least important choice made, this is killed off by the fact that a race that gets no +DC and no +Stats is the second best choice for every single DC caster build and in some cases the best (Divines). +2 DC will not make or brake a build so it does not HURT, as you said you need more then just DC's for most caster class the extra feat from Human goes a very long way in boosting that aspect of the class.

In LE if you are on the Die with a reasonable chance to land a spell its not because of the race you select. Race is the least important part of what got you on the die in fact as your class, gear, build, destiny, and twists all add more DC then race.
because there is not a wis based race for divines lol. Human give +1 DC for enhancement + a feat, vs nothing with other races. If we had the aasimar race, i could say you how many aasimar divines versus human ones... Maybe this change with the new iconic deep gnome (+4 wis), but the tax of the +1 hearth... heh, it's not good.

Oh yeah, you need gear, build, destiny, enhacements, and twists for DC in LE. But race helps too. Every DC point helps.

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 03:33 PM
I understand what you are saying about being realistic, but I am saying that if they are going to add a race that is aimed at being an illusionist, there needs to be some illusion spells. The list I had in my earlier post was the COMPLETE list of all illusion spells. There are 35 necro spells. While the ones you listed are the main ones, there are at least half dozen more that any decent Necro caster is going to cast regularly and most of the rest (that aren't buffs) may be good situationaly. Of the 7 Illusion spells, only two even calls for a save and only one of those has any chance of directly damaging an enemy but it requires two saves. Two more spells is not going to make this race very compelling as an Illusionist.

Please note, I did not ask if they were going to start creating spells now. I asked if there are going to be any and if not how they envision the earthen illusionist to be played. I assume the Devs can read the same wiki I can and know there are few illusion spells. I assume they have already started working on them and that they are near completion but not released to Lam yet. (Devs can be a sneaky little bunch) Lam is usually released in stages. I think it is very reasonably for them to have created 9 new spells over the course of the last couple months. Some could be as simple as a illusion school versions of other schools' spells. It doesn't have to be over the top, just something that the new buffs to Illusion DC can be applied to.

Honest question when was the last time you saw nine new spells added to the game? How many new spells were added with Warlock? What ever the number added with Warlock is a reasonable number IMO. But 2 of them still have to be very good to make this count.

I don't know how many new spells were added with the Warlock but i doubt it was nine and can only think of one of the top of my head.

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 03:35 PM
Oh yeah, you need gear, build, destiny, enhacements, and twists for DC in LE. But race helps too. Every DC point helps.

And that's why the races that add +4 stat to a DC caster are the optimal choice, but its still the least important choice you made and the easiest to alter.

I agree if there was a +Wisdom race it would be the optimal choice for Divine casters was not saying other wise, was just Illustrating that strong DC casters can be made with out a race that gives +4 to the casting stat.

Qezuzu
02-12-2016, 03:37 PM
+2 DC is not Free, +1 is free, the second +1 costs at least 6 AP in the racial tree.

That's not really all that costly, especially for Druid and FvS who only have two trees.


+2 DC will not make or brake a build so it does not HURT

Don't know if you play DC casters but that +2 DC actually is significant. You can see it just in the math. Against some mobs it really is impossible to get no-fail. If you have 20% fail chance, +2 DC reduces that to 10%. You fail half as often. Or the other way, if you're just barely past their dice roll and they only fail on a 2, +2 DC doubles your chance of success. Or if they're failing half the time, 50%, +2 DC increases that to 60%, you succeed 20% more often.

IronClan
02-12-2016, 03:42 PM
So over 6 pages it's pretty overwhelmingly unanimous that we needs new spells... Why don't you guys do a mini spell pass, just take the worst offenders and biggest joke spells and holes in the specialties and tweak and create a few new ones.

If you did it right you might be able to forego doing that "caster pass" so you'de switch one development push for another.

IMO better spells would add far more than a "caster pass" anyway.

Holymunchkin
02-12-2016, 03:46 PM
So over 6 pages it's pretty overwhelmingly unanimous that we needs new spells... Why don't you guys do a mini spell pass, just take the worst offenders and biggest joke spells and holes in the specialties and tweak and create a few new ones.

If you did it right you might be able to forego doing that "caster pass" so you'de switch one development push for another.

IMO better spells would add far more than a "caster pass" anyway.

honestly arcane pulse was enough for endgame
was a good addition to the game

I second this post

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 03:51 PM
Don't know if you play DC casters but that +2 DC actually is significant. You can see it just in the math. Against some mobs it really is impossible to get no-fail. If you have 20% fail chance, +2 DC reduces that to 10%. You fail half as often. Or the other way, if you're just barely past their dice roll and they only fail on a 2, +2 DC doubles your chance of success. Or if they're failing half the time, 50%, +2 DC increases that to 60%, you succeed 20% more often.

I haven't played an endgame ready DC cast in probably 3 years.

When I did play an end game caster if +2 DC made or broke my build I would have considered the build non viable. For a DC caster build to be viable you need to be in the 75-85% chance to land the spell. Going from 85% to 75% is a 13% decrease in effectiveness.

If you are in the ranges where +2 DC is significantly more then 10% increase in effectiveness then you really shouldn't be playing a DC caster.

To reiterate +2 to DC is not going to make or brake a serious DC caster is it the best choice yes (i've said its optimal quite a bit) but its not the make or brake decision.

Holymunchkin
02-12-2016, 03:57 PM
I haven't played an endgame ready DC cast in probably 3 years.

When I did play an end game caster if +2 DC made or broke my build I would have considered the build non viable. For a DC caster build to be viable you need to be in the 75-85% chance to land the spell. Going from 85% to 75% is a 13% decrease in effectiveness.

If you are in the ranges where +2 DC is significantly more then 10% increase in effectiveness then you really shouldn't be playing a DC caster.

To reiterate +2 to DC is not going to make or brake a serious DC caster is it the best choice yes (i've said its optimal quite a bit) but its not the make or brake decision.

dude land your cc or die

if you are right at the cusp of a 77 dc enchant it is huge

Iriale
02-12-2016, 03:59 PM
And that's why the races that add +4 stat to a DC caster are the optimal choice, but its still the least important choice you made and the easiest to alter.

I agree if there was a +Wisdom race it would be the optimal choice for Divine casters was not saying other wise, was just Illustrating that strong DC casters can be made with out a race that gives +4 to the casting stat.
is a +4 stat race needed? no, but helps a lot, because it's very difficult to get a DC ok and not be a CC bot without dps. The race helps to get another things not DC based. Because is not fun to play a CC bot.

Too, it varies. Not all classes are the same. For example, devs added +3 spell DC to exalted angel DC for divines. Arcanes don't have these luxury in their EDs. And for this a lot of arcane casters based on cha prefer exalted angel to arcane EDs...

And why 99% of DC divine casters are humans? Because there is not a wis based race and human give more DC than the other races.

I said that the race matters on DC casters. Matters A LOT. It is no needed. But matters.


I haven't played an endgame ready DC cast in probably 3 years.
This explain a lot... play a DC caster first, please. It's a nightmare get an ok DC! So, race is important.

Iriale
02-12-2016, 04:02 PM
So over 6 pages it's pretty overwhelmingly unanimous that we needs new spells... Why don't you guys do a mini spell pass, just take the worst offenders and biggest joke spells and holes in the specialties and tweak and create a few new ones.

If you did it right you might be able to forego doing that "caster pass" so you'de switch one development push for another.

IMO better spells would add far more than a "caster pass" anyway.
+1

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 04:17 PM
dude land your cc or die
Right. when did I say other wise?


if you are right at the cusp of a 77 dc enchant it is huge

Again Right when did i say other wise? That said If you are only right at the cusp, you would be better off playing a different build to collect more power weather its gear, or pl or something else.

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 04:23 PM
This explain a lot... play a DC caster first, please. It's a nightmare get an ok DC! So, race is important.

I was playing a DC caste when every one was saying DC casting is dead around the time of E GH, I was doing fine and the way a DC caster plays has not change at all since then you either get your DC to a point where it lands 75-85% of the time or you are gimp. Nothing I've said in this thread has gone against that.

Only ever playing a DC caster in a Race that gets +4 to the casting stat is almost a crutch for the weaker player. As you your self said


is a +4 stat race needed? no,
which by the way is exactly what I've been saying.

Qezuzu
02-12-2016, 04:23 PM
I haven't played an endgame ready DC cast in probably 3 years.

When I did play an end game caster if +2 DC made or broke my build I would have considered the build non viable. For a DC caster build to be viable you need to be in the 75-85% chance to land the spell. Going from 85% to 75% is a 13% decrease in effectiveness.

If you are in the ranges where +2 DC is significantly more then 10% increase in effectiveness then you really shouldn't be playing a DC caster.

To reiterate +2 to DC is not going to make or brake a serious DC caster is it the best choice yes (i've said its optimal quite a bit) but its not the make or brake decision.

If you had played a DC caster recently you'd know that it's not possible to get that 75% to 85% range vs. some mobs, especially for fort.

And besides, that +2 means you'd have an easier time doing something like dropping Epic Increased Potential for a spell-power stick.

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 04:25 PM
If you had played a DC caster recently you'd know that it's not possible to get that 75% to 85% range vs. some mobs, especially for fort.

And besides, that +2 means you'd have an easier time doing something like dropping Epic Increased Potential for a spell-power stick.

I never said it wasn't easier to play a +Stat race. I said it wasn't need and that its the least important choice made by a DC caster.

EDIT:

If you had played a DC caster recently you'd know that it's not possible to get that 75% to 85% range vs. some mobs, especially for fort.

Right I don't know if 75-85% is doable or not it was hard to get that kind of DC when I was playing 8 hours a night 7 days a week. now that I don't even play half that often I don't feel playing a DC caster is possible as there is no way to put in the kind of effort need to keep it viable.

Holymunchkin
02-12-2016, 04:39 PM
If you are in the ranges where +2 DC is significantly more then 10% increase in effectiveness then you really shouldn't be playing a DC caster.

Here,

honestly don't know why you are going on about this when you don't play one or seem to have an interest in it
a variety of silly statements I don't understand are being made....
....you're making balance statements without "feeling" the difference and you miss intangibles like *agro will kill you* and *its hard to get viable DC's*

lol

the whole conversation distracts from the actual issue here on the lamma forums.

We need illusion spells. Maybe you're happy with just 2, but we've had that conversation.

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 04:42 PM
Here,

honestly don't know why you are going on about this when you don't play one or seem to have an interest in it
a variety of silly statements I don't understand are being made....

lol

Because race isn't that big a deal in this game, which has been my point all along. And has been admitted to by every one arguing with me even.

Thought I'm interested are you agreeing or disagreeing with that quote? Please answer.

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 04:47 PM
....you're making balance statements without "feeling" the difference and you miss intangibles like *agro will kill you* and *its hard to get viable DC's*


I'm not missing the intangibles at all. Agro will kill you come on who the **** doesn't know that, and lol its hard to get viable DC's I've admitted that and it proves my point that race is the least important factor if it wasn't it would be a lot easier to get viable DC's as race is an easy thing to chose and requires 0 grind.

Holymunchkin
02-12-2016, 04:52 PM
sorry mate you're gonna have to play forum ddo with someone else

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 04:57 PM
sorry mate you're gonna have to play forum ddo with someone else

I do not feel I'm playing forum DDO. I honestly believe that race is the least important choice made when building a character. Caster or Melee.

Holymunchkin
02-12-2016, 05:00 PM
good for you. go play one.
oh no. you don't have an interest in that.
just in having an opinion on them.

=

forum ddo.

You keep talking like race isn't important when everything spent on a build comes at the cost of not taking other things.

Augon
02-12-2016, 05:05 PM
Honest question when was the last time you saw nine new spells added to the game? How many new spells were added with Warlock? What ever the number added with Warlock is a reasonable number IMO. But 2 of them still have to be very good to make this count.

I don't know how many new spells were added with the Warlock but i doubt it was nine and can only think of one of the top of my head.

When was the last time you saw a new race added to the game? As I understand it, its been a while - but they are doing it now. the fact something hasn't been done in a while does not rule it out as a possibility.

But as I said the new spells for the Illusionist does not need to be completely new spells. SLAs are in some respects new spells that are basically different versions of the original spell. It seems to be quite a doable thing to create new versions of old spells that use Illusion as the school instead of the original school.

Perhaps create 2 brand new spells and modify some older spells to be used by illusionists. Some of the details could be tweaked - duration between additional saves, duration in general, etc. But the basic animation and bulk of the spell could be the same.

EDIT:
However, all of this is superfluous anyway. We are not the Devs. We will play the game they give us any way you look at it. :)

So, if there are not any plans to give us any more Illusion spells, which is a very real possibility, how do the Devs envision playing an Earthen Illusionist effectively?

Holymunchkin
02-12-2016, 05:07 PM
But the basic animation and bulk of the spell could be the same.

I really like the idea of a pink will-save bladebarrier (LMAO)

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 05:07 PM
good for you. go play one.
oh no. you don't have an interest in that.
just in having an opinion on them.

=

forum ddo.


That's ridiculous logic now I understand why that phrase came from Iron.

By that logic I'm not allowed to have the opinion that slavery is wrong because i'm neither a slave nor a slave owner.

Holymunchkin
02-12-2016, 05:14 PM
That's reticulated logic now I understand why that phrase came from Iron.

By that logic I'm not allowed to have the opinion that slavery is wrong because i'm neither a slave nor a slave owner.

lol. Did I state that everything you knew was wrong because you lacked perspective, or that you lack perspective and therefore I can dismiss your statements?

They are very separate things logically. It's like not knowing how to treat your slave because you've never had one. OR what you think I'm saying: you could not know how to treat your slave because you've never had one.

It's like a white girl talking about what it means to be black, when it is a given that she sounds like an idiot. NOT She doesn't know what it means to be black because she is not black.

And now I'm spinning down a chute of forum ddo garbage. Ty Grail for coming to this Lam thread and enlightening me, I really feel like gnomes are going to be a quality release!

Holymunchkin
02-12-2016, 05:18 PM
also reticulated doesn't mean circular, but i assumed that's what you were getting at mate....

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 05:19 PM
lol. Did I state that everything you knew was wrong because you lacked perspective, or that you lack perspective and therefore I can dismiss your statements?

They are very separate things logically. It's like not knowing how to treat your slave because you've never had one. OR what you think I'm saying: you could not know how to treat your slave because you've never had one.

It's like a white girl talking about what it means to be black, when it is a given that she sounds like an idiot. NOT She doesn't know what it means to be black because she is not black.

And now I'm spinning down a chute of forum ddo garbage. Ty Grail for coming to this Lam thread and enlightening me, I really feel like gnomes are going to be a quality release!

DC casting has not changed, enough in the last 3 years to make what you are trying to claim here legit. I have enough perspective on it.

But its good to know your opinion about my perspective.

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 05:20 PM
also reticulated doesn't mean circular, but i assumed that's what you were getting at mate....

fixed the typo thanks.

Holymunchkin
02-12-2016, 05:21 PM
But its good to know now your opinion about my perspective.

I'm sorry. I and others tried to make it abundantly clear earlier. lol

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 05:23 PM
I and others tried to make it abundantly clear earlier. lol

Fixed that for you.

Rys
02-12-2016, 05:25 PM
sorry mate you're gonna have to play forum ddo with someone else

pick me pick me

Holymunchkin
02-12-2016, 05:28 PM
pick me pick me

http://media.yourdailymedia.com/4/cloud-fart-620px.jpg

Rys
02-12-2016, 05:36 PM
http://media.yourdailymedia.com/4/cloud-fart-620px.jpg

I wasn't asking you

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 05:40 PM
pick me pick me

**** it I'll play.

on a scale of (10) most important to (1) least important where do you rank the importance of race selection?

Rys
02-12-2016, 05:42 PM
**** it I'll play.

on a scale of (10) most important to (1) least important where do you rank the importance of race selection?

(5)

Grailhawk
02-12-2016, 05:45 PM
(5)

Anything you would rank below that?

Kompera_Oberon
02-12-2016, 05:52 PM
Looking fairly good on a first read.


Imbued Defender now grants you a passive +5 Electric and +2 Universal Spell Power per rank.

Please confirm or deny that this should actually read:
Imbued Defender in addition to its previous effect, now grants you a passive +5 Electric and +2 Universal Spell Power per rank.
Or is the PRR and doublestrike going away in an apparent complete about face of the recent efforts to make Pets and Summons more viable?

The whole "Imbued is now Imbue" and then rolling right into "Imbued" again on the very next line is fairly silly and confusing. Are you renaming one effect? Renaming one effect and introducing another? Something different?
Was there a huge amount of player feedback complaining about the name of this ability? Just curious as to why this name change was even bothered with.
The same feedback applies to this incredibly vital and yet inconsequential name change:

The "Spooky" bonus type, primarily found on Night Revels items, has had its name changed to "Festive" to support the bonus being used on non-scary things.

Also, where is the third Enhancement tree? As in where in the future plans will it be implemented?

Rys
02-12-2016, 05:54 PM
Anything you would rank below that?

Definitely munchkins

http://animalia-life.com/data_images/munchkin-cat/munchkin-cat6.jpg

Bonus points if they are holy

http://i.imgur.com/m8YY0OZ.jpg

Kompera_Oberon
02-12-2016, 06:08 PM
I really like the look of both the regular Gnomes and Deep Gnomes. The Gnome /dance and /dance2 are very well done. There is one thing missing from the Deep Gnome racial tree, however.

Deep Gnomes should have the ability to summon an Earth Elemental at the highest part of the racial enhancement tree.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Deep_gnome

Or, at least, this should be a Spell Like Ability for those Deep Gnomes that remain Wizards. I wouldn't think this racial trait would be too hard to add at this point, so please consider revising the Deep Gnome tree to include Earth Elemental summoning.
Perhaps a racial element added to Call Kindred Being?

Kompera_Oberon
02-12-2016, 06:15 PM
Also, is the PL for deep gnomes really 3 MRR? Cause that's totally useless to me, since some wise guy decided my MRR was gonna cap at 50 cause I'm not wearing a tin can. I still can't wrap my head around that cap... it makes no sense.
It makes a certain, tiny amount of sense. Your choice: Tin can and higher MRR, or Evasion/Improved Evasion and lower MRR.

Stops making sense when you consider that only 3 classes have access to Evasion and only 2 classes have access to Improved Evasion.

The_Human_Cypher
02-12-2016, 06:36 PM
Not buying gnome (or probably ANY iconic, anymore), myself - I'm sick of buying things twice.

You are missing out if you do not buy the Gnome, especially the Deep Gnome. Maybe getting a VIP sub is the answer (free to VIPs).

Wizza
02-12-2016, 06:39 PM
You are missing out if you do not buy the Gnome, especially the Deep Gnome. Maybe getting a VIP sub is the answer (free to VIPs).

Missing out on an awful looking and overpriced race that has nothing really interesting? Yeah, no thanks

Milikki
02-12-2016, 07:19 PM
Hey Turbine, throw in a way for Gnomes to have Wisdom for hit and damage, make it work with wraps and I might purchase.. but the way it is now? I really don't think Casters and Kiters Online needs *ANOTHER* ranged choice.

Qezuzu
02-12-2016, 07:29 PM
Casters and Kiters Online

Are we being serious now

The_Human_Cypher
02-12-2016, 07:33 PM
Missing out on an awful looking and overpriced race that has nothing really interesting? Yeah, no thanks

C'mon, Gnomes are cool. You know it.

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/522f3cb2e4b088d34db9e450/t/53459b01e4b060ad6f28a779/1425124011881/

nibel
02-12-2016, 08:24 PM
Stops making sense when you consider that only 3 classes have access to Evasion and only 2 classes have access to Improved Evasion.

4 classes. Bard can get it as a capstone.

Holymunchkin
02-12-2016, 08:26 PM
Primal avatar, shadow dancer

past life monk active

KoobTheProud
02-12-2016, 09:41 PM
Both the Gnomes look very good on first release. I like the fact that the Eberron Gnome has the 3 Illusion class SLA's and that you gave them damage in the form of Symbol of Fire with an Illusion DC. The 2 CC spells are great also. I can see Eberron Gnomes as prime DC CC-ers at first glance. The Iconic looks good too, especially if it actually has +2 Int and +2 Wis. Should give builders some real options.

eris2323
02-12-2016, 10:28 PM
You are missing out if you do not buy the Gnome, especially the Deep Gnome. Maybe getting a VIP sub is the answer (free to VIPs).
I am VIP. I assumed (I could be wrong) that the base gnome will be free to me, but iconics, like all other iconics, I'd have to buy...

Could be I'm wrong, it's been a long, long time since the last iconics...

But regardless, my main has already done the 3 wizard lives, so deep gnome holds almost 0 interest for me - I'd have to change that 1st level wiz out everytime I wanted to play a pure class...

The_Human_Cypher
02-12-2016, 10:37 PM
I am VIP. I assumed (I could be wrong) that the base gnome will be free to me, but iconics, like all other iconics, I'd have to buy...

Could be I'm wrong, it's been a long, long time since the last iconics...

But regardless, my main has already done the 3 wizard lives, so deep gnome holds almost 0 interest for me - I'd have to change that 1st level wiz out everytime I wanted to play a pure class...

Both common Gnomes and Iconic Deep Gnomes are free for VIPs (confirmed by Cordovan). Deep Gnome past lives would still give you the passive feat for that Iconic class.

eris2323
02-12-2016, 11:33 PM
Both common Gnomes and Iconic Deep Gnomes are free for VIPs (confirmed by Cordovan). Deep Gnome past lives would still give you the passive feat for that Iconic class.
Oh, well that's nice at least, that they give this iconic to vips for free, I didn't expect that.

Still though, have to take a level of wizard (which I actually love, as a class, but not just 1 level)... I'm on the TR train, and when I get to classes I haven't played in a while (so there's usually significant differences in trees, or whatnot), then I try to play it as a pure class... I can't justify paying a heart for 3 lives of something else as a gnome...

Aletys
02-13-2016, 02:09 AM
Honest question when was the last time you saw nine new spells added to the game? How many new spells were added with Warlock? What ever the number added with Warlock is a reasonable number IMO. But 2 of them still have to be very good to make this count.

I don't know how many new spells were added with the Warlock but i doubt it was nine and can only think of one of the top of my head.

Don't think it was nine, but it was certainly more than 2, when you count some of the warlock SLA's. And they're all viable offensive spells: Hurl through Hell, Dark Discorporation (I believe this one was new), Evadr's, Confusion, The ES Bursts & Auras, the various Warlock blasts (chain, cone, wall), SE Dark Feeding, Stricken, etc.

Actually, I've already named nine, and haven't finished going through the 2nd tree. So, if they could do it for Warlock's, they can certainly do it Gnome.

dunklezhan
02-13-2016, 05:42 AM
"The "Spooky" bonus type, primarily found on Night Revels items, has had its name changed to "Festive" to support the bonus being used on non-scary things."

I don't have any of the 'spooky' augments, but I prefer that each festival has it's own bonus type, because of stacking. I am unlikely to get all of them myself, but if they don't stack, that will be a demotivating factor for others, and that means fewer people to run festivals with.




Party member voice volume can now be adjusted individually on a slider when in a party.


This, on the other hand, is AWESOME. Love QoL fixes.

energon9
02-13-2016, 09:05 AM
The scale and opacity of floating names can now be adjusted with sliders in the Options > UI Settings panel.

Cool! Could we also have this split up for PC and NPC names? (LOTRO does this, as an example)


Gnomageddon!

I think the gnomes look pretty good overall. The deep gnomes need a few eye color options though, as they look creepily blind, and lore indicates they have gray or black eyes.

A major issue seems to be the decision to deviate from lore with the starting stats -- is this really necessary?

FranOhmsford
02-13-2016, 09:24 AM
A major issue seems to be the decision to deviate from lore with the starting stats -- is this really necessary?

It's necessary because the Devs have painted themselves into a corner with their insistence on making the Svirfneblin a base class Wizard!

Svirfneblin are a +2 Wis, +2 Dex Race - Changing the +2 Wis to Int would have been bad because 1) it would annoy D&D Fans who know Svirf are a +Wis Race AND 2) Adding both Wis and Int while losing the Dex means they will sell a lot more +1 Hearts so that Clerics, Druids, FavSouls and Monks can get rid of that Wizard Level!

Remember that only Roleplayers would consider a Svirfneblin Divine without that +2 Wis {I don't think anyone would consider a Svirf Monk without it unless they were staying the exact same race through every life!} and Roleplayers won't pay for a +1 Heart!

With that +2 Wis however their will be a lot of people willing to pay for that +1 Heart!




What the Devs SHOULD have done is:

1) Put the Illusionist stuff in the Basic Gnome Racial Tree - Basic Gnome = +2 Int
and
2) Make Svirfneblin base Class Cleric or Druid {Allow Players to pick either on Creation}, +2 Wis as in PnP and with Conju Enhancements in their Racial Tree!

Oh and if they really want a Wizard Iconic:
3) Allow Morninglords to choose between Cleric and Wizard at Character Creation!
OR
3) Give us Red Wizard of Thay Iconic!

Grace_ana
02-13-2016, 09:46 AM
1. QoL fixes are excellent, especially the volume control. I have been wishing for that for forever.

2. Sadly, not as happy about gnomes. Well, let me rephrase. I hope that the devs aren't seeing gnomes as the answer to our manymanymanymany requests for a wis-based race, because it's not. If I have to buy a +1 heart to actually make a wis-based toon that makes sense (because since when were wizards ever needing wisdom?), it's not a wis-based race. That actually makes me a little bit angry.

So, aasimar soon? Right? Like, really really soon?

FranOhmsford
02-13-2016, 10:05 AM
1. QoL fixes are excellent, especially the volume control. I have been wishing for that for forever.

2. Sadly, not as happy about gnomes. Well, let me rephrase. I hope that the devs aren't seeing gnomes as the answer to our manymanymanymany requests for a wis-based race, because it's not. If I have to buy a +1 heart to actually make a wis-based toon that makes sense (because since when were wizards ever needing wisdom?), it's not a wis-based race. That actually makes me a little bit angry.

So, aasimar soon? Right? Like, really really soon?

The Devs really need to hand every Svirfneblin and Morninglord a Free +1 Heart! {No we don't need a +20 or a +5....Just a +1!}.

Alternatively we need a way to earn +1 Hearts in game with regularity - Suggestion time: Add it {BtC on Acquire of course} to 400 Free Agents Favour and Epic True Elite Saga Rewards

Qhualor
02-13-2016, 10:16 AM
1. QoL fixes are excellent, especially the volume control. I have been wishing for that for forever.

2. Sadly, not as happy about gnomes. Well, let me rephrase. I hope that the devs aren't seeing gnomes as the answer to our manymanymanymany requests for a wis-based race, because it's not. If I have to buy a +1 heart to actually make a wis-based toon that makes sense (because since when were wizards ever needing wisdom?), it's not a wis-based race. That actually makes me a little bit angry.

So, aasimar soon? Right? Like, really really soon?

Deep Gnome has a multi selector for wis and int. This was definitely brought up by the council that it should be wis, but I see this as a bone for wizards. This is what I predicted to happen a couple months ago. I actually tried to push for con for Eberron Gnome.

Augon
02-13-2016, 10:37 AM
I really like the idea of a pink will-save bladebarrier (LMAO)

Not exactly what I had in mind, but it works.

CSQ
02-13-2016, 10:55 AM
Don't think it was nine, but it was certainly more than 2, when you count some of the warlock SLA's. And they're all viable offensive spells: Hurl through Hell, Dark Discorporation (I believe this one was new), Evadr's, Confusion, The ES Bursts & Auras, the various Warlock blasts (chain, cone, wall), SE Dark Feeding, Stricken, etc.

Actually, I've already named nine, and haven't finished going through the 2nd tree. So, if they could do it for Warlock's, they can certainly do it Gnome.

To be fair, a lot of classes get nine clickies in their trees (I think all of them, but I haven't done a scientific survey); we're talking about a race. I don't think races get that much shiny stuff (with the iconics being the most heavily loaded typically), and if you're just talking about spells Warlock only has a handful (though they are, in my opinion, really quite useful, especially Evard's).

I'm not particularly impressed by or excited about gnome. My next past life on my main (or the one after it) will be a wizard for the sake of completionist and I think I'll probably avoid gnome, even if it's live, because I can't justify the -2 str for the +2 int with tome bonuses and 36 point build. Human offers the same DC bonus with the bonus feat (or something more useful, for that matter, if I don't go for a DC caster) and the racial tree seems oddly inconsistent with wizard unless you reallllllllllly want to go illusionist, which quite frankly I'm not sure works nearly as well as a nuke or even, given the scarcity of illusion spells, as crowd control. Gnome does not seem to synergize well with PM, and the strength penalty makes EK a chore. Archmage seems to be the only viable tree to prefer gnome for if you go illusionist, which is a shame since most of its abilities wouldn't even help out an illusion caster that much (Perhaps Energy, Wand/Scroll, Efficient Metamagic, School Mastery, and the Int stat choices, but even then unless you were heavily splashing another school for damage spells you'd have a hard time justifying illusionist).

I was really hoping Gnome (at least Eberron gnomes) would work better with artificer, since that seems to be more lore friendly. Making the iconic a wizard basically killed my interest in it, because quite frankly there's not enough there to offer a unique incentive to play that particular kind of wizard; the past life feats seem to be the biggest coaxing, but even if I did roll a deep gnome I'd probably end up basically dropping wizard, the racial tree (except, perhaps, to tumble through enemies because why wait for epic destinies?), and anything distinguishing about the race and go artificer, either +1 hearting or sucking up the wizard level and ignoring it, giving up capstone bonuses and just being gimped all the way to 30. Quite frankly, Wis is absolutely worthless for Wizards except for the +1 Will save (again, easier to get elsewhere, such as a free human feat) and even +2 Con or Dex would make Deep Gnome a much more viable choice. I hope Deep Gnome gets almost entirely overhauled before live to make it viable; otherwise we'll only see it for the Iconic Completionists and some RP players.

Epitome
02-13-2016, 11:08 AM
Why is the purchase of Astral Shards disabled? It would be very helpful to test treasure elixars, rand loot changes, etc. if this were re-enabled to allow for loot re-rolls.

Grace_ana
02-13-2016, 11:22 AM
Deep Gnome has a multi selector for wis and int. This was definitely brought up by the council that it should be wis, but I see this as a bone for wizards. This is what I predicted to happen a couple months ago. I actually tried to push for con for Eberron Gnome.

Wizards didn't need a stat bone. They already have drow and the harper tree for stats. I don't understand why the regular race couldn't also be a multiselector. But again, if this is the case, fine, but the devs better not assume that they have now given us a wis-based race. We still don't have one.

Also, I agree with everyone that says the illusion spells need a pass. There's no point in playing an illusionist with the current spell list.

FranOhmsford
02-13-2016, 11:46 AM
Wizards didn't need a stat bone. They already have drow and the harper tree for stats.


This is actually a very good point!

There are plenty of good races for Wizard already - Drow, Human, Warforged/Bladeforged, Elf even!

I know the Devs wanted a Wizard Iconic but why oh why did they have to do it on the ONE Iconic Race that could have actually been given to Divines? {No Morninglord doesn't count!}.

Xionanx
02-13-2016, 03:18 PM
This is actually a very good point!

There are plenty of good races for Wizard already - Drow, Human, Warforged/Bladeforged, Elf even!

I know the Devs wanted a Wizard Iconic but why oh why did they have to do it on the ONE Iconic Race that could have actually been given to Divines? {No Morninglord doesn't count!}.

Because the producers and/or person in charge of actually making the decision(S) for what goes into DDO dont actually "Play" DDO and have no clue how the decisions they make are often seen as ill-conceived.

Holymunchkin
02-13-2016, 07:47 PM
Because the producers and/or person in charge of actually making the decision(S) for what goes into DDO dont actually "Play" DDO and have no clue how the decisions they make are often seen as ill-conceived.

case in point "earthen illusionist"

more like

"we gave your iconic an acid stick. It can be an even better one-trick pony illusionist... ...if you did 3 IPLs. We're sorry that the effectiveness of PK will still be half of FoD, and you will be no better than glue!. It was all an illusion! Buy my invisible stalker creature companion!"

Silverleafeon
02-13-2016, 08:01 PM
Anyone know if the Gnome Phantasmal Kill SLA / Archmage PK SLA / Wizard PK spell ~ have separate cooldowns = worth checking.

On live Archmage PK SLA / Wizard PK spell = have separate cooldowns.

Wizards like having the very strong PK spell on separate cooldowns, adding a 3rd PK to put on cooldown would be very significant (or allowing archmage to choose a different main school).

Silverleafeon
02-13-2016, 08:02 PM
I really like the idea of a pink will-save bladebarrier (LMAO)

+1 for the laugh, only a gnome would think of something like that


http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130626041933/sonicpokemon/images/b/b2/Psyduck_AG_anime.png

Silverleafeon
02-13-2016, 08:05 PM
Remember that only Roleplayers would consider a Svirfneblin Divine without that +2 Wis
+1 for honesty
Finally a +Wis race, its about time!


And with the best FvS capstones in game too!

Sunbolt SLA, +Wis, Master of Light, Empower, Intensify, Maximize, make your Leg Greensteel Heavy Mace, etc...

Searing Light, Cure Light Wounds also pretty good for a Divine.

nibel
02-13-2016, 10:24 PM
My feedback on Gnome and Svirfneblin. Usual disclaimer that I do not aim to play Epic Elites and Legendary Elite, etc. Said that, my feedback is NOT based on raw power of stuff. I leave that for the people who care about achieving max power.

Gnome
I love the ability to get real good UMD values at very low levels, but I think +8 UMD for a feat and 4 AP is too much. I would keep the bonus on the Mark of Scribing, but remove the racial bonus and core enhancements bonus for something else.
Dwarfs get their racial bonus to hit against orcs. Put in there the gnome racial bonus to hit against kobolds and goblinoids. Or even goblinoids only, if you can't detach "kobold" from "reptilian".
I want my racial +1 bonus to Illusion DC.
I want my Giant Evasion feat (just copy from Dwarf)
Kudos on giving it +int (like every edition that is not 3e) instead of +con (3e stats).
I like the idea about making them better with small weapons, to incentive their uses. However, by giving them bonus with Light Mace, this will keep Light Hammers in their shadows. There is absolutely no reason to use a light hammer (1d4) when you can use a light mace (1d6). I would also ask to remove short swords from that list, since they are boosted by a lot of other styles as well (Swashbuckler, Ninja Spy), and are not a gnome iconic weapon.
Color Spray should be added to the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list as a level 1 spell too.
Favored Enemy is a weak T4 ability. 2 AP for 2 conditional damage is too small. Lower it to T3, and maybe make a "Goblinbane" ability of some kind on T4 that requires it. I don't know, some kind of vorpal effect? Extra 2d6 bane damage? Just not a plain FE feat.
Gnome /dance is officially my new favorite dance in DDO.


Svirfneblin
+Int instead of +Dex is a big mistake. Making it an iconic Illusionist is even a bigger mistake, unless you are planning to add 3~6 new illusion spells in the same update. It should had +dex/wis and be an iconic ranger. (Their favored class is Rogue, but we have Shadar-Kai on that class already)
Spell Resistance in a second race is cool, but add in the racial tree some way to raise it a bit, like Drow. It doesn't need to be core as well.
Conjure Stone should had been a HALFLING thing. They are the ones with lore about throwing stones around.
PK as an SLA makes no sense with the race. Specially because as an illusion archmage, they can get this same SLA in the Archmage tree. I agree with the person that said early that this should have been Summon Earth Elemental. Make it three tiers for a CR 15/20/30 Earth Elemental (it is a summon, its not overpowered) and call it a day.
Past Life should add +10 Spell Power per PL, like Sun Elf PL.
I seriously want to know how a belt makes you see better (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Beast-leather_Belt).

Seikojin
02-13-2016, 10:30 PM
I like that the iconic gets the +2 int and wis. Sly move there.



Sans the tr bug and the polish, I think they are really good.

My suggestion would be to add quarterstaff to the gnome feat. This way they can synergize well as a monk or rogue.

They have a fair amount of class combos.

I think they do need a way to make other spells illusion instead of just the 2 offensives. Maybe X level as a gnome, they get to add an illusion spell to their book? Or a feat that allows a set of spells to use illusion dc's instead of their normal school?

Seikojin
02-13-2016, 10:33 PM
My feedback on Gnome and Svirfneblin. Usual disclaimer that I do not aim to play Epic Elites and Legendary Elite, etc. Said that, my feedback is NOT based on raw power of stuff. I leave that for the people who care about achieving max power.

Gnome
I love the ability to get real good UMD values at very low levels, but I think +8 UMD for a feat and 4 AP is too much. I would keep the bonus on the Mark of Scribing, but remove the racial bonus and core enhancements bonus for something else.
Dwarfs get their racial bonus to hit against orcs. Put in there the gnome racial bonus to hit against kobolds and goblinoids. Or even goblinoids only, if you can't detach "kobold" from "reptilian".
I want my racial +1 bonus to Illusion DC.
I want my Giant Evasion feat (just copy from Dwarf)
Kudos on giving it +int (like every edition that is not 3e) instead of +con (3e stats).
I like the idea about making them better with small weapons, to incentive their uses. However, by giving them bonus with Light Mace, this will keep Light Hammers in their shadows. There is absolutely no reason to use a light hammer (1d4) when you can use a light mace (1d6). I would also ask to remove short swords from that list, since they are boosted by a lot of other styles as well (Swashbuckler, Ninja Spy), and are not a gnome iconic weapon.
Color Spray should be added to the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list as a level 1 spell too.
Favored Enemy is a weak T4 ability. 2 AP for 2 conditional damage is too small. Lower it to T3, and maybe make a "Goblinbane" ability of some kind on T4 that requires it. I don't know, some kind of vorpal effect? Extra 2d6 bane damage? Just not a plain FE feat.
Gnome /dance is officially my new favorite dance in DDO.


Svirfneblin
+Int instead of +Dex is a big mistake. Making it an iconic Illusionist is even a bigger mistake, unless you are planning to add 3~6 new illusion spells in the same update. It should had +dex/wis and be an iconic ranger. (Their favored class is Rogue, but we have Shadar-Kai on that class already)
Spell Resistance in a second race is cool, but add in the racial tree some way to raise it a bit, like Drow. It doesn't need to be core as well.
Conjure Stone should had been a HALFLING thing. They are the ones with lore about throwing stones around.
PK as an SLA makes no sense with the race. Specially because as an illusion archmage, they can get this same SLA in the Archmage tree. I agree with the person that said early that this should have been Summon Earth Elemental. Make it three tiers for a CR 15/20/30 Earth Elemental (it is a summon, its not overpowered) and call it a day.
Past Life should add +10 Spell Power per PL, like Sun Elf PL.
I seriously want to know how a belt makes you see better (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Beast-leather_Belt).


For the belt: gnomes use belts on their heads. :D

Silverleafeon
02-13-2016, 10:40 PM
Speaking as a fan of summons, I feel it would be a HUGE mistake to replace PK sla (great boost to illusion based sor/wiz) with Summon Earth Elemental (already available from scrolls and easily crafted as a Tier II heroic greensteel click).

I have watched an Illusion wizard preform very well with PK spell plus PK sla in the past, and I applaud the effort to put forth more illusion options including the illusion based symbols, and dc boosts.

/signed on more illusion spells sooner or later for arcane.

/not signed on replacing PK with SM7, however willing to allow summon earth elemental as an addition easily

/not signed on PK sla already viable to wizards as sorcerers are badly in need of more options, and do the two slas share cooldown, because if they don't wizard illusionist are gonna love that.


Since iconics are thematic, an earth dweller worshiping light (gnome iconic pure fvs) is not so different from a Floridian wishing to travel to the mountains to see snow, or an Kansasian wishing to travel to the beach to see the sea...

Holymunchkin
02-14-2016, 09:28 AM
Anyone know if the Gnome Phantasmal Kill SLA / Archmage PK SLA / Wizard PK spell ~ have separate cooldowns = worth checking.

On live Archmage PK SLA / Wizard PK spell = have separate cooldowns.

Wizards like having the very strong PK spell on separate cooldowns, adding a 3rd PK to put on cooldown would be very significant (or allowing archmage to choose a different main school).

All 3 have separate cooldowns on lamannia. The 2 on live have had seperate cooldowns---I played PK archmage after enhancement pass.

The main problem with PK is that it has two saves. Like circle of death it very hard to land on many mobs. It can only be supplemental to another school at this point.

FranOhmsford
02-14-2016, 10:02 AM
All 3 have separate cooldowns on lamannia. The 2 on live have had seperate cooldowns---I played PK archmage after enhancement pass.

The main problem with PK is that it has two saves. Like circle of death it very hard to land on many mobs. It can only be supplemental to another school at this point.

Actually the "main" problem with PK is that Gnomes in D&D are Tricksters NOT Murderers!

Yes PK is an Illusion Spell and yes a Gnome Illusionist should be able to take it as one of their Spell Choices {and from Archmage too if he/she so chooses} BUT having it in the Racial Tree available to every Gnome?
WOW!

A Racial Instakill is pretty out there anyway!

Holymunchkin
02-14-2016, 10:30 AM
Actually the "main" problem with PK is that Gnomes in D&D are Tricksters NOT Murderers!

Yes PK is an Illusion Spell and yes a Gnome Illusionist should be able to take it as one of their Spell Choices {and from Archmage too if he/she so chooses} BUT having it in the Racial Tree available to every Gnome?
WOW!

A Racial Instakill is pretty out there anyway!

From one perspective 90% of what we do in DDO is murder. On the other hand, I agree that (Thematically) a racial insta-kill is a very poor idea.
Back to murder-as-fun... ...who cares about lore at this point. We have an "earthen illusionist."

FranOhmsford
02-14-2016, 10:42 AM
From one perspective 90% of what we do in DDO is murder. On the other hand, I agree that (Thematically) a racial insta-kill is a very poor idea.
Back to murder-as-fun... ...who cares about lore at this point. We have an "earthen illusionist."

There's different degrees.

War is War for one.

You could also say we're defending our nation {Stormreach} from Invaders and Bandits.

Running with the Devils is Manslaughter - We were attacked by the Eladrin!

Even Purge the Heretics can be seen as we were duped into committing Murder {Though the NPC dialogue is pretty straightforward and Gnomon doesn't actually go out of his way to dupe us - more allows us to dupe ourselves by lying about our allegiances in the first place -
Paraphrased Question: Are you a follower of the Silver Flame?
Paraphrased Answer: Of course I am says the Drow Pale Master! Or the Bladeforged Paladin! Or the Halfling Assassin! Or the Oh you get the point!



Pretty hard to justify giving a Racial Instakill to Gnomes however - Heck I couldn't even justify giving it to Tieflings!

Basura_Grande
02-14-2016, 10:44 AM
Even Purge the Heretics can be seen as we were duped into committing Murder . . .

Nonsense, the halflings had it coming.

FranOhmsford
02-14-2016, 10:47 AM
Nonsense, the halflings had it coming.

The Halflings are actually the mercenaries paid to defend the people we're sent to murder.

The two Leaders are both Elves and because this is House P many of the followers are Elves.

nibel
02-14-2016, 12:15 PM
/not signed on replacing PK with SM7, however willing to allow summon earth elemental as an addition easily

Switching it to the same Earth Elemental of Summon Monster 7 would be a big mistake. That elemental is CR 13.

But just like the summoned dryad in Primal Avatar is not the same of Summon Nature's Ally IX, Turbine can had a hand-crafted Earth Elemental there.

Silverleafeon
02-14-2016, 03:20 PM
All 3 have separate cooldowns on lamannia. The 2 on live have had seperate cooldowns---I played PK archmage after enhancement pass.

Thank you for checking.

This is awesome news, boosting illusion school upwards!


The main problem with PK is that it has two saves. Like circle of death it very hard to land on many mobs. It can only be supplemental to another school at this point.

I have seen several players rock the dungeon with that spell, but yes it does have double saves along with a spell resistance, and deathblock/ward immunity (four total stops, but damage upon passing will save):


Name:
Phantasmal Killer

School:
Illusion (Fear) (Death) (Mind-affecting)

Level:
Sor/Wiz 4

Spell Point Cost:
25

Components:
Verbal, Somatic

Metamagic:
Enlarge, Heighten, Quicken

Range:
Standard

Target:
Foe

Duration:
Instantaneous

Saving Throw:
Will save negates or Fortitude save takes partial damage

Spell Resistance:
Yes

Cooldown:
8 seconds (Wiz), 6 seconds (Sor)

Description:
You create a phantasmal image of the most fearsome creature imaginable to the subject simply by forming the fears of the subject’s subconscious mind into something that its conscious mind can visualize: this most horrible beast. Only the spell’s Foe can see the Phantasmal Killer. You see only a vague shape. The target first gets a Will save to recognize the image as unreal to disbelieve the spell and suffer no ill effects. If that save fails, the phantasm touches the subject, and the subject must succeed on a Fortitude save or die from fear. Even if the Fortitude save is successful, the subject takes 1d3+1 points of bane damage per caster level.

Phantasmal Killer is a death effect and a fear effect, and as such, either Deathblock, Death Ward or any sort of fear immunity will provide immunity from this spell.






Actually the "main" problem with PK is that Gnomes in D&D are Tricksters NOT Murderers!


Let us think about this for a moment, the gnome simply uses the enemies worst fears against them, nothing more. A mind perfectly at peace would not be affected, only that which should be faced and dealt with will harm. Any warrior knows they ought to face their fears. Any wizard knows "ridiculous" is a great counterspell.

Any adventure would seek out deathblock.

Silverleafeon
02-14-2016, 03:25 PM
Switching it to the same Earth Elemental of Summon Monster 7 would be a big mistake. That elemental is CR 13.

But just like the summoned dryad in Primal Avatar is not the same of Summon Nature's Ally IX, Turbine can had a hand-crafted Earth Elemental there.

There is the already crafted "summon deep stone earth elemental/ 2 a day" min level 12 heroic greensteel tier II clicky available as well which in my past adventuring has served me well.

If they want to add it as an extra (having both), sure go ahead, but instant kill sla >>>> summons sla in my humble opionion which could be very wrong.
I have seen wizards tear up dungeons with that spell/sla combo in the past.
Now sorcerers can go illusion school too if they choose.

And hey maybe we will see more color spray group casting along with it, which has been a popular choice for some as well.

HuneyMunster
02-14-2016, 03:35 PM
It makes a certain, tiny amount of sense. Your choice: Tin can and higher MRR, or Evasion/Improved Evasion and lower MRR.

Stops making sense when you consider that only 3 classes have access to Evasion and only 2 classes have access to Improved Evasion.

That's not entirely true as 4 classes can get evasion and 3 can get improved evasion. Bard at 20 can get evasion via Swashbuckler Evasive Maneuvers, while Ranger can get improved evasion via Tempest Evasive Dance.

Also any class in either Shadowdancer or Primal Avatar can also have evasion. Primal Avatar having a requirement of TWF, Unarmed and Animal Form while Shadowdancer just has the usual requirements.

painkiller3
02-14-2016, 03:55 PM
Not sure what all the negativity is about...+1 heart aside, a pure Druid rock gnome looks pretty good to me

Cyprine
02-15-2016, 08:20 AM
Trickster, wasnt that the prestige class where you could add your sneak attack to your (to hit) spells ?! Melf Arrows + Sneak attack :)

IronClan
02-15-2016, 09:56 AM
Pretty hard to justify giving a Racial Instakill to Gnomes however - Heck I couldn't even justify giving it to Tieflings!

Honestly who cares what you can justify? Please stop trying to make gnomes suck in the name of arbitrary pointless and nearly valueless lore minutia, thanks.

mudfud
02-15-2016, 10:58 AM
At this time the Cannith Crafting update is being pushed out of Update 30 so that we can have further time on it to consider what we should do with Cannith Crafting.

Further time to consider? Hasn't it been years that there has been "futher time to consider it"? Now what a few more years is needed? I have seen updates thrown together in less then 2 months time, from planning them, coding them, then releasing them. Why can't Cannith Crafting be done in this same 2 month time period as everything else?

lifestaker
02-15-2016, 11:03 AM
Further time to consider? Hasn't it been years that there has been "futher time to consider it"? Now what a few more years is needed? I have seen updates thrown together in less then 2 months time, from planning them, coding them, then releasing them. Why can't Cannith Crafting be done in this same 2 month time period as everything else?

Maybe they are trying something new and are trying to put something together that people are not going to rip apart and say that it sucks.

mudfud
02-15-2016, 11:07 AM
Maybe they are trying something new and are trying to put something together that people are not going to rip apart and say that it sucks.

I guess while we wait the years to find out we can reflect on this post and see if that becomes true.

GuntherBovine
02-15-2016, 11:24 AM
I don't know if this is the right place, but here's my report on my brief run in Lamannia yesterday:
* I was mainly concerned with crafting. I went to the crafting hall so see if the new loot gen prefixes and suffixes were there. I got a message that crafting is in beta, but I didn't see any new prefixes or suffixes for bound shards
* I bought a hireling and ran "From Beyond the Grave" on Hard. Everything seemed fine
* I took the loot I got from that quest and deconstructed it. The amounts from the deconstruction seemed appropriate

I'm hording gear with the new loot gen prefixes and suffixes to deconstruct them. Any idea when that will make it over to the main servers?

Qhualor
02-15-2016, 12:21 PM
Trickster, wasnt that the prestige class where you could add your sneak attack to your (to hit) spells ?! Melf Arrows + Sneak attack :)

Now that would be cool.

FranOhmsford
02-15-2016, 12:27 PM
Please stop trying to make gnomes suck in the name of arbitrary pointless and nearly valueless lore minutia, thanks.

If the only way to make Gnomes not suck is to give them an INSTAKILL in their racial tree then the Devs are doing it wrong!

Not only does PK not fit ANY D&D Lore about Gnomes but it's also either going to be blatantly OP as a racial enhancement or totally useless if it doesn't have a decent DC!

Heck: Next we'll be getting Tieflings with Racial FoD!

dontmater
02-15-2016, 01:00 PM
shut up[ and give me my volume slider... :D

Holymunchkin
02-15-2016, 06:23 PM
If the only way to make Gnomes not suck is to give them an INSTAKILL in their racial tree then the Devs are doing it wrong!

Not only does PK not fit ANY D&D Lore about Gnomes but it's also either going to be blatantly OP as a racial enhancement or totally useless if it doesn't have a decent DC!

Heck: Next we'll be getting Tieflings with Racial FoD!

lol

Kantia
02-15-2016, 07:06 PM
Is this all the changes we can expect for Arcane Archer? Or is there more to come with the "part two" of the AA pass? Is there going to be any more consideration of the racial AA trees beyond what's already done for the Ranger AA tree?

Also, burying the news of the Cannith Crafting update being pushed out of Update 30 on post 73 of this thread seems like dropping the ball on communication. It's been broken for two months, and now you need to take time to consider what you want to do with it, and don't actually make a news post or include the announcement in the lead post on ANY thread. It seems to me that there's room for improvement on the communication side of things here.

Ligraph
02-15-2016, 07:26 PM
Is this all the changes we can expect for Arcane Archer? Or is there more to come with the "part two" of the AA pass? Is there going to be any more consideration of the racial AA trees beyond what's already done for the Ranger AA tree?

I'm fairly sure that anything done to the ranger AA tree also applies to the racial. The AoE is planed to work for racial too, but it's currently buged, or so I hear.

Rog
02-15-2016, 08:10 PM
So I made an Iconic Deep Gnome, and because I was feeling a bit lazy, I chose to follow the default Earthen Illusionist path, and then just insta-leveled up to Level 15 Wizard. I haven't really quested with it yet, so I don't know how it plays, but right off the bat I see one gigantic problem: Using the default path and the default Iconic starter gear, I am left with these ability scores:
ST: 6
DX: 12
CN: 24
IQ: 30
WS: 10
CH: 6

This is before any enhancements (which would mostly affect Int/Wis anyway).

While I appreciate the investment into Con along with Int, it seems a bit ridiculous to allow a Level 15 character to start out with a Strength of 6 (plus a CHA of 6, but for me that's less of an issue). I would never use the default path for a real game character, but since it's there and since players are going to use it, this is an opportunity to help newer players who do choose this route avoid problems. The starter Deep Gnome gear should at least have +4/+5 Strength somewhere, which would be typical for what a Level 15 character would have.
6 str lol one 1 full plate from a chest. you can barley swing your weapon.
great catch you need to push this one.

Rog
02-15-2016, 08:41 PM
Shadow Monsters: Creates monsters that have 1/5 the HD of the original. The AC of the creatures is 9, and they only do one dice of damage upon hitting. The creatures do not get special abilities (such as turning to stone, draining life, or breath weapons) unless the target believes the illusion. A number of HD of shadow monsters is created equal to the caster's level. The creatures take double damage from silver.
I only played Illusionist as a class.
a Iconic Deep Gnome : level 15 Illusionist.
That being said I believe I can make a decent monk from the deep Gnome tree if they really get the +2 wis.
by the way fix stunning items.

HungarianRhapsody
02-15-2016, 10:05 PM
At this time the Cannith Crafting update is being pushed out of Update 30 so that we can have further time on it to consider what we should do with Cannith Crafting.

Cannith Crafting update has been coming "soon" since 2013. Hopefully "soon" will change to actual soon sometime in the near future.

HuneyMunster
02-16-2016, 04:09 AM
6 str lol one 1 full plate from a chest. you can barley swing your weapon.
great catch you need to push this one.

Don't forget Gnomes also get the same carry capacity of a Halfling so looting 1 Heart of a Hen will leave you encumbered.

6 Str Gnome
56lbs Medium Encumbrance
113lbs Burdened
169lbs Overloaded

50lbs Beholder Plate Armor

HuneyMunster
02-16-2016, 04:38 AM
The 3 MRR from past life is too similar in that its the same as warlock past life.

Why not 3 MRR cap while wearing no armor(includes docents without Mithral/Adamante body) instead of or addition too. I would think most cloth casters are already at their 50 MRR cap so doing Gnome past life would not be useful to them unless they really want to try to cast PK which is usually only rarely used by a wizard and not any other arcanes.

Robe of the Celestial Sage +38
3x Warlock +9
MRR Tome +2

That is just 1 under the cap wearing just 1 item for MRR.

Vanhooger
02-16-2016, 06:58 AM
The 3 MRR from past life is too similar in that its the same as warlock past life.

Why not 3 MRR cap while wearing no armor(includes docents without Mithral/Adamante body) instead of or addition too. I would think most cloth casters are already at their 50 MRR cap so doing Gnome past life would not be useful to them unless they really want to try to cast PK which is usually only rarely used by a wizard and not any other arcanes.

Robe of the Celestial Sage +38
3x Warlock +9
MRR Tome +2

That is just 1 under the cap wearing just 1 item for MRR.

Add a +1 tome and you got it.

OrodelaSol
02-16-2016, 07:39 AM
Any word on exactly when update 30 will be released? Yay deep gnomes!

Cordovan
02-16-2016, 11:17 AM
Is this all the changes we can expect for Arcane Archer? Or is there more to come with the "part two" of the AA pass? Is there going to be any more consideration of the racial AA trees beyond what's already done for the Ranger AA tree?

Also, burying the news of the Cannith Crafting update being pushed out of Update 30 on post 73 of this thread seems like dropping the ball on communication. It's been broken for two months, and now you need to take time to consider what you want to do with it, and don't actually make a news post or include the announcement in the lead post on ANY thread. It seems to me that there's room for improvement on the communication side of things here.

This is the extent of Arcane Archer changes planned for Update 30. There was no deliberate intention to bury the news on Cannith Crafting. So far the word seems to have spread pretty quickly on it, but we can do further outreach if necessary.

Kadrios
02-16-2016, 11:24 AM
I haven't had a proper chance to go through this thread yet, so apologies if this has already been covered, but would anybody be able to comment on whether


Cannith Crafting:

The new randomly-generated loot from Update 29 can now be deconstructed properly.


means we can now also safely craft on blanks made from new lootgen items, or only deconstruct them for essences?

also, is the deep gnome bonus to spellcraft typed, or will it stack with everything?

Cordovan
02-16-2016, 12:25 PM
I haven't had a proper chance to go through this thread yet, so apologies if this has already been covered, but would anybody be able to comment on whether



means we can now also safely craft on blanks made from new lootgen items, or only deconstruct them for essences?

also, is the deep gnome bonus to spellcraft typed, or will it stack with everything?

Yes, you should be able to craft on the blanks. Spellcraft will be a simple boost to the skill, and is not the same type of bonus as the Competence bonus received for wielding a Spellcraft item.

Renvar
02-16-2016, 12:54 PM
The 3 MRR from past life is too similar in that its the same as warlock past life.

Why not 3 MRR cap while wearing no armor(includes docents without Mithral/Adamante body) instead of or addition too. I would think most cloth casters are already at their 50 MRR cap so doing Gnome past life would not be useful to them unless they really want to try to cast PK which is usually only rarely used by a wizard and not any other arcanes.

Robe of the Celestial Sage +38
3x Warlock +9
MRR Tome +2

That is just 1 under the cap wearing just 1 item for MRR.

Casters get the acid spell power and the +1 illusion DC's too. So Gnome past lives aren't a total waste for cloth casters. Also, most cloth casters could wear leather armor if they wanted more MRR. EK Tier 2 gives light armor proficency and -5% ASF. You get -5% ASF in the core 2 as well. From there all you need is a 5% ASF augment and you are golden. with a 10% ASF augment, you can skip the core 2 AP spend as well. Not a large trade off to get 100 MRR cap.

And it's worth it since you can get 38 (light sage armor) + 25 insightful (mysterious cloak/bracers) + 4 quality (resonation) + 9 Warlock PL + 9 Gnome PL + 2 Tome + 2 mythic armor bonus = 89 MRR. That's the difference between 33% and 47% blocking damage. I'd say it's worth it.

Seikojin
02-17-2016, 12:44 AM
There's different degrees.

War is War for one.

You could also say we're defending our nation {Stormreach} from Invaders and Bandits.

Running with the Devils is Manslaughter - We were attacked by the Eladrin!

Even Purge the Heretics can be seen as we were duped into committing Murder {Though the NPC dialogue is pretty straightforward and Gnomon doesn't actually go out of his way to dupe us - more allows us to dupe ourselves by lying about our allegiances in the first place -
Paraphrased Question: Are you a follower of the Silver Flame?
Paraphrased Answer: Of course I am says the Drow Pale Master! Or the Bladeforged Paladin! Or the Halfling Assassin! Or the Oh you get the point!



Pretty hard to justify giving a Racial Instakill to Gnomes however - Heck I couldn't even justify giving it to Tieflings!

LOL, Fran!

Honestly, I do not mind mechanically that gnomes would be masters of PK, since it is one of a handful of illusion spells available.

If ddo stuck to the rules, there would be more outcry than gnomes getting pk :D

thomascoolone64
02-17-2016, 03:17 AM
No. Summon are useless.

Yes, Summons arent needed unless you cant do enough DPS Your own self :P

nnocturne
02-17-2016, 04:29 AM
When I read that gnomes were joining the beastiary of Dungeons and Dragons Online, it brought back fond memories of svirfneblin überbosses blasting my party with carefully crafted illusion spells. My excitement has now faded after discovering that even the Iconic race would be little more than a human with additional min-maxing potential.

How exactly does getting a +1 to Illusion make you a master illusionist? One spell (PK) does not make you one in my book. In its current state, the proposed Gnome race and Svirfneblin iconic really offers nothing new. Adding an Earth Elemental wouldn't change this. The min-maxing potential may of course be great, if you're into that sort of thing, but what about the fun factor? How will playing a gnome or a svirfneblin offer us anything new and different? Unless I'm hunting for an additional few points in MRR, why would I want to roll a bland svirfneblin?

I'd therefore like to submit the following idea: A tier 5 ability in the svirfneblin enhancement tree which truly favours the "master illusionist" character. I have fond memories of my party bunkering down behind shields as gnome illusionists unleashed volleys of imaginary fireballs at them. Why not include this into DDO? With the potential for all spells to become Illusion, we expand the repertoire and add real flavour to what currently looks like a "meh" race.

This Metamagic feat-like ability would allow you to switch the School of any spell it is applied to and turn it into an Illusion spell (at an additional cost, of course).

Result: Illusionary firewalls, illusionary acid fogs, illusionary summons and illusionary fingers of death.

This may of course require some fine-tuning to ensure that it is balanced with other builds, but this is in my opinion a character that would be fun playing and, importantly for Turbine, worth buying.

Holymunchkin
02-17-2016, 09:38 PM
When I read that gnomes were joining the beastiary of Dungeons and Dragons Online, it brought back fond memories of svirfneblin überbosses blasting my party with carefully crafted illusion spells. My excitement has now faded after discovering that even the Iconic race would be little more than a human with additional min-maxing potential.

How exactly does getting a +1 to Illusion make you a master illusionist? One spell (PK) does not make you one in my book. In its current state, the proposed Gnome race and Svirfneblin iconic really offers nothing new. Adding an Earth Elemental wouldn't change this. The min-maxing potential may of course be great, if you're into that sort of thing, but what about the fun factor? How will playing a gnome or a svirfneblin offer us anything new and different? Unless I'm hunting for an additional few points in MRR, why would I want to roll a bland svirfneblin?

I'd therefore like to submit the following idea: A tier 5 ability in the svirfneblin enhancement tree which truly favours the "master illusionist" character. I have fond memories of my party bunkering down behind shields as gnome illusionists unleashed volleys of imaginary fireballs at them. Why not include this into DDO? With the potential for all spells to become Illusion, we expand the repertoire and add real flavour to what currently looks like a "meh" race.

This Metamagic feat-like ability would allow you to switch the School of any spell it is applied to and turn it into an Illusion spell (at an additional cost, of course).

Result: Illusionary firewalls, illusionary acid fogs, illusionary summons and illusionary fingers of death.

This may of course require some fine-tuning to ensure that it is balanced with other builds, but this is in my opinion a character that would be fun playing and, importantly for Turbine, worth buying.

+1

Silverleafeon
02-17-2016, 10:26 PM
I'd therefore like to submit the following idea: A tier 5 ability in the svirfneblin enhancement tree which truly favours the "master illusionist" character. I have fond memories of my party bunkering down behind shields as gnome illusionists unleashed volleys of imaginary fireballs at them. Why not include this into DDO? With the potential for all spells to become Illusion, we expand the repertoire and add real flavour to what currently looks like a "meh" race.

This Metamagic feat-like ability would allow you to switch the School of any spell it is applied to and turn it into an Illusion spell (at an additional cost, of course).

Result: Illusionary firewalls, illusionary acid fogs, illusionary summons and illusionary fingers of death.

This may of course require some fine-tuning to ensure that it is balanced with other builds, but this is in my opinion a character that would be fun playing and, importantly for Turbine, worth buying.

Very interesting....
+1

Would even be willing to accept this options in other forms as appropriate.

IronClan
02-17-2016, 11:45 PM
You know part of me likes the idea of Illusiory versions of regular spells and hey +1 for the idea, it actually mimics Shadow manipulation which is an actual D&D thing, and fits. You got me Silver and Holymunchkin agreeing that's something right there all by itself. Just need Chai, Grail and Basura to write off on it and we have a quarum.

BUT the other part of me REALLY wants new Illusions spells speaking as someone who's run a PK Illusion archmage for a PL, it needs more spell selection plain and simple. No way around it.

That said I know how this goes and how strapped for resources the Dev's are and I too have learned to settle, I'm a DDO settler, I got my knee slappin' (sorry).

Now all that said: heroic spells don't presently scale up enough to be useful for the most part to damage EE and LE mobs... An illusory DB Fireball or Chain Lightning is just as useless against a 10,000hp trash mob as a real one :( So we're really talking about a situation like Bard's Greater Shout SLA or Savant SLA's... where it's only useful in heroics...

I don't know but I somehow hate the fact that this idea gives them an "out" for putting more actual illusions into the game.

None the less tis a solid Idea. I had a similar one of taking Dwarven Earthgrab ability and making it illusory. I could see an ability that allows turning one heroic spell per spell level into a illusion.

Iriale
02-18-2016, 05:07 AM
IronClan, the problem is that devs are trying to give a bone to DC spellcasters (who have hard times nowadays) when we need a complete review of magic:
* A spell review, updating the useless spells (about the 85% of our spellbooks!) and adding new ones in weak schools
* A review of spell scaling in epics: damage spells and caster lever dependent spells for equal (dispel magic, disjunction, banishment, etc are useless!)
* A review of the DC differences between our first specialization school and the others. A little of specialization is good. Convert spellcasters in one-trick ponies is not.
* If devs want that we target the weak save of mobs (a reasonable pretension if -and only IF- the game is ok balanced) we need a lot more spells. We need alternatives when our preferred spells don't work.
* A review of epic ward. Why charms are so bad on epics?? Why there are so many immunities on epics??? Why debuffs are useless on epics???
* And a review of silly fort saves of the mobs in the last content ****

The bones don't work if your main work tool, the magic, is outdated and ineffective. A magic pass will help to all spellcasters A LOT.

I repeat, devs: it's time for a whole update reviewing the magic. It's time. Ok, you don't have time for adding more illusion spells now. But schedule NOW a magic pass in a not too distant future. And people will be happier with the idea of an illusionist race.

Kakow
02-18-2016, 10:33 AM
Honestly who cares what you can justify? Please stop trying to make gnomes suck in the name of arbitrary pointless and nearly valueless lore minutia, thanks.

It's quotes like this that make me absolutely shocked you were ever on the Player's Council.

Lore in an MMORPG is important. Period. It's what differentiates one game from the next. It is what separates the Dungeons and Dragons from hundreds of cheap knockoff fantasy games. It's what makes a RPG not a MOBA.

I don't like a whole lot of things Fran says, but what you said here is just plain ignorant and irritating, especially spoken from someone proudly displaying a forum placard bragging about being involved in advising the development of a Dungeons and Dragons product.

Who cares about being more honest to the lore? A vast majority of the playerbase does, or we would be playing LOTRO or World of Pandas instead of DDO.

We all get it. You, and others, have a personal dislike of anything regarding summons (which quite honestly flies in the face of your discussion in my own Champion of Jubilex thread by the way...https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/469914-Champion-of-Jubilex-a-comedy-approach-for-the-lolz/page3). Yay for consistency, huh?

Earth Elemental summon isn't even in the lammania build so I don't quite understand the violent opposition to something that doesn't currently exist even in the test stages. The same rage could be had about them putting in the Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster cleric faction. Much (MUCH) ado about nothing.

Can we move past your crusade to be the loudest critic of something you don't like and maybe steer this into something more like adult consensus? Maybe we won't get the summon. Fine, whatever. I'll personally accept it as Eberron Gnomes being less in tune with the Elemental Plane of Earth.

I think from reading over 200-ish posts the general consensus is against giving gnomes the currently discussed Phantasmal Killer racial, both from a lore standpoint and power gamer standpoint. Agreed?

Qezuzu
02-18-2016, 11:30 AM
It's quotes like this that make me absolutely shocked you were ever on the Player's Council.

Lore in an MMORPG is important. Period. It's what differentiates one game from the next. It is what separates the Dungeons and Dragons from hundreds of cheap knockoff fantasy games. It's what makes a RPG not a MOBA.

I don't like a whole lot of things Fran says, but what you said here is just plain ignorant and irritating, especially spoken from someone proudly displaying a forum placard bragging about being involved in advising the development of a Dungeons and Dragons product.

I thought the point of the Player Council was to include people who had a wide range of different interests and priorities. I don't think, at any point in time, caring about DnD lore was a requirement.

It seems strange to insist that Gnomes get a completely useless enhancement for lore reasons in a game where lore has been ignored countless times in favor of game balance, or technical constraints, or time constraints, or just for monetization reasons.

I wouldn't be opposed to PK SLA being a multi-selector, but getting rid of it in favor of a summon that can be accessed two other ways (scrolls and GS clickie), and which will, at best, only be useful for spamming Earthgrab, just seems like a bad move for a race that will cost 1,295 TP.


Who cares about being more honest to the lore? A vast majority of the playerbase does, or we would be playing LOTRO or World of Pandas instead of DDO.

A vast majority of players care about the lore? Really? Do you have some sort of survey for this?

FranOhmsford
02-18-2016, 11:40 AM
I thought the point of the Player Council was to include people who had a wide range of different interests and priorities. I don't think, at any point in time, caring about DnD lore was a requirement.

It seems strange to insist that Gnomes get a completely useless enhancement for lore reasons in a game where lore has been ignored countless times in favor of game balance, or technical constraints, or time constraints, or just for monetization reasons.

I wouldn't be opposed to PK SLA being a multi-selector, but getting rid of it in favor of a summon that can be accessed two other ways (scrolls and GS clickie), and which will, at best, only be useful for spamming Earthgrab, just seems like a bad move for a race that will cost 1,295 TP.


Who says the summon will be the same as the one from Summon Monster V or even the GS Earth Ele? Though that second option would be for me a fair T4 Racial.

PK will either be insanely OP as a Tier 4 Racial or utterly useless depending on DC.

PK is not and never has been Lore Relevant to any kind of Gnomes who are known as Tricksters, Generally good or neutral aligned and may be able to learn PK as Wizards but would only use it as an absolute last resort!


Oh and we already have PK as an SLA in the Archmage Tree so adding another PK SLA = Why?

Grandern_Marn
02-18-2016, 02:53 PM
If deep gnomes get a summon it should be a flaming sphere. They are very illusionary and the most enthralling summon out there.

mikarddo
02-18-2016, 03:47 PM
Lore in an MMORPG is important. Period. It's what differentiates one game from the next. It is what separates the Dungeons and Dragons from hundreds of cheap knockoff fantasy games. It's what makes a RPG not a MOBA.

Who cares about being more honest to the lore? A vast majority of the playerbase does, or we would be playing LOTRO or World of Pandas instead of DDO.


Any claim to know what the "vast majority" thinks without an actual survey to prove the point is just bad manners.

Further, there is broad lore and there is detailed lore. I think you may be correct that most care that lore overall is followed but I rather doubt that many care about detailed lore if it interferes with making gameplay work.

As for the exact lore issue here - personally its not imporant to me but I accept your right to find it important just not to claim to speak for anyone except yourself.

IronClan
02-18-2016, 03:50 PM
It's quotes like this that make me absolutely shocked you were ever on the Player's Council.

Lore in an MMORPG is important. Period. It's what differentiates one game from the next. It is what separates the Dungeons and Dragons from hundreds of cheap knockoff fantasy games. It's what makes a RPG not a MOBA.

I don't like a whole lot of things Fran says, but what you said here is just plain ignorant and irritating, especially spoken from someone proudly displaying a forum placard bragging about being involved in advising the development of a Dungeons and Dragons product.

Who cares about being more honest to the lore? A vast majority of the playerbase does, or we would be playing LOTRO or World of Pandas instead of DDO.

We all get it. You, and others, have a personal dislike of anything regarding summons (which quite honestly flies in the face of your discussion in my own Champion of Jubilex thread by the way...https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/469914-Champion-of-Jubilex-a-comedy-approach-for-the-lolz/page3). Yay for consistency, huh?

1. Keep expecting everyone on a 30+ person focus group to share your tastes, tell us how that works out for you.
2. I said Lore minutia, minutia you know minor nit picks and small details? you know trivial junk that doesn't matter to 99.9999% of us?
3. I do not advertise having been on the PC, Cordovan added that tag to the entire 2014 PC without asking, I would however feel narcissistic and overly "image conscious" if I asked him to remove it (I.e. I would appear to care about what people think).
4. Sundering Ooze builds in DDO have a long history of actually being viable, because they get around DDO's biggest problem (utterly brain dead and weak summons that usually can't defeat an at level vermin one on one (Example the 7th level Druid Dire bear summons versus a Vail explorer area Scorpeon... don't bet on the bear...) by virtue of spammy numbers and not caring when they die or fall behind. Unlike say... I don't know... a Earth Ele summons?

I also said if they want to add a earth ele summons do it in addition to and not in place of PK... My original objection was only that people were pushing to add a useless summons in place of an SLA version of the ONLY illusion spell worth casting on a monster.

If they want to make the Earth ele scale from CR 5 at low level to CR 70 at level 30 then I'd get behind that... Or hey allow Gnomes to cast a spell that simply raises small earth eles 2 to 3 at a time as they die off or fall behind to be replaced by new ones. That'd be interesting. Yay for consistency :)

Zebedar
02-18-2016, 07:33 PM
I certainly hope that U30 is not going live this week or Monday.

DANTEIL
02-18-2016, 10:43 PM
If deep gnomes get a summon it should be a flaming sphere. They are very illusionary and the most enthralling summon out there.

Except for the Earthen Illusionist instead of a Flaming Sphere, it should be a Rolling Stone.

Kakow
02-18-2016, 11:37 PM
I thought the point of the Player Council was to include people who had a wide range of different interests and priorities. I don't think, at any point in time, caring about DnD lore was a requirement. [other stuff snipped] A vast majority of players care about the lore? Really? Do you have some sort of survey for this?


Any claim to know what the "vast majority" thinks without an actual survey to prove the

point is just bad manners.


2. ...you know trivial junk that doesn't matter to 99.9999% of us?

The irony of the two PC council members (past and present) statements juxtaposed like this is funny to me.

However, I do agree with you Qezuzuz and mikarddo, despite your calling me on (rightfully so I may add) my positing an opinion of my own based on experience with DDO players over seven years of play and talking with them about what's important to them in DDO versus other MMORPGs. I will try to be more precise when I'm stating my opinions, however I've come to them. I like to think players pick this MMO over another one because it's Dungeons and Dragons, not Generic Fantasy Product #982.B7. But you're right, it is a thought/opinion, not empirical evidence. However, I stand by my opinion that most players do enjoy the world and lore more than the loudest metagaming critics here on the forums think they (the silent) do.

Kakow
02-19-2016, 12:08 AM
Response to IronClan's last post here.

1, 2. See above.

Rest of this will seem offensive at first read, but it isn't intended to be. I almost sent this via PM instead, but I thought the content was applicable to more than just you individually as a PC member as my feelings on the forum tag apply universally, not just you in particular.

3. You advertise being on the PC every single time you post something, willingly or not. Your forum tag shows a level of authority and experience valued by the company and community (cuz you didn't put yourself in for PC did you?), and just because you feel you're no longer bound by the PC rules and standards of behavior does not matter. Inexperienced and uninformed players will judge your opinions more valuable BECAUSE of that forum tag. That's not opinion. That's basic psychology. It's the same reason people will value Dr. Sally Smith's opinion on pretty much anything over someone identifying themselves as Buktoof Shakynddra "Luusbeeoch" Smiff.

Not saying I think you should remove it, but saying that it has no impact on others reading your posts is inaccurate at best. You say you don't care what other people think, but then flood the mobo forums nearly daily with your opinions. That's crazy talk...are we supposed to value your opinions even though you openly said you don't value ours? I'm going to to agree with you sometimes, and disagree at other times. But don't say things that make you look like you're inconsistent and expect not to be called out (applies to anyone with or without a PC handle, but especially those with the tags).

4. Your initial stance was:
Oh and please don't listen to the strange people who want a useless earth ele to replace the actually potentially useful Phantasmal killer SLA please don't replace it with a useless earth ele summons. - We, the lore lovers, are strange people who want useless things? As the opinion post above, I'll again say it's obvious you dislike summons in the current game, but please don't call me strange and that I desire useless stuff, because I'm neither strange, nor do I desire useless summons.

You then went on to say something that actually makes a lot more sense and is a better compromise for all of us:
please add the summons IN ADDITION and not as a replacement. and then go about making it good enough/scale up so it's worth bothering with. - See how easy it is to be nice when you think for more than a few seconds and react? I support your statement here fully.

Zebedar
02-19-2016, 12:35 AM
Tearing into each other over lore or no lore, etc.. like the last page or two have been just make it easier for the Developers to ignore our input and put a flawed race out live, instead we should be looking at the good options we have heard put out on the Lamma threads this week and championing then rather than wasting the time and energy to settle old scores. Ask yourselves, what is more important scoring a point or two in a endless back and forth while the Devs use that behavior as a reason to happily ignore our input and concerns, or putting it all on the back burner and joining together to push some decent ideas that realistically could be applied before the update? Me? I suggest we push the ideas before the Devs saddle us with another gimped race.


Moving forward in that spirit allow me to say that when it comes to fixing the Gnomes by far the best Idea I have heard floated is that the Gnome or Deep Gnomes should be able to cast additional spells, specifically the bread and butter spells of DDO casters as though they are illusions with a Illusion DC.

This has already been done with the AA's Imbue arrows, All the effects have Enchantment based DCs so clearly the mechanic to apply variant DCs is already Coded for the most part. I would suggest that they provide the Gnome a Tier IV ability that Toggles one additional spell school to be used in a Illusionary form, not all of them to but one that the player chooses and pays AP for. For instance at Tier IV the Gnome caster could pick evocation, or necro, etc.... This would work for all classes, you could even have a Earthen Illusionist Druid casting Earthquake as a illusion based DC.

I would ask you all to give this some serious thought. Especially considering the Dev's made clear at the events last week they will not be putting out any new Illusion spells with this update. And if the past is any indicator, the Foreseeable future. I think we all just have to swallow this bitter pill and unite all together and focus our energies to get what we can for Gnomes in this new update by making sure the Dev hear us and know. Whatever rises to acclaim will need to lead with practicality in that it will need to be whatever is the easiest for the Developers to do in a limited time-frame while improving the product in a way we as the customers are indicating we desire.


If we continue to be fractured in our complaints about the shortcoming of the race and snipe at each other and pick apart other posts based on lore, Game theory, etc... instead of making it very very clear to the Developers that more needs to be done they will be able to ignore the arguments and set us one against the other while they take the easy way out.

We do not get new races often, lets work together to make sure they get it as good as possible this time.