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invicto15
02-01-2016, 05:17 PM
Hey all this is my first post ever here, I had an idea and wanted to ask advice and help on what I could change on it to make it work better so the idea is for an PDK eldritch knight, the idea behind him is to CC through enchantment spells then melee down the mobs, going PDK for CKT so that I can apply CHA to dmg I don't have a character planner so going to end up typing it all.

PDK Sorc 18/ Pally 2
36 pt buid 2h Great sword weapon of choice
STR 12-14
DEx 12-14
Con 14-16
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 18
+7 tome across the board

Feats
Lvl 1 PA
Human Cleave
Lvl 3 Enchant focus
Lvl 6 Greater focus
Lvl 9 Greater Cleave
Lvl 12 extend
Lvl 15 imp crit
lvl 18 heighten
epic feats I don't have any in mind other than Overwhelming crit and PTWF since I heard that the doublestrike bonus applies to 2h weaps
(advice on what to take here appreciated)

Skilss max UMD, Concentration, Spell craft (since it increases force spell power) extra skill points on whatever

Epic Destiny will be LD twists I have not thought about.

Spell choices would basically be buffs and enchantments mainly aiming at Otto's Sphere and Hold Mass

I would like to be able to do EE content not sure if trying to get enchant dc high enough to work will hurt dps much or if it's even attainable just with the focus feats.

not sure if I should just forget about enchant and go with a sorc 16/fighter2/pally2 and just focus all on melee feats + extends and focus spells on buffs and utility this way I could even go with the SWF line and may be throw on a shield.

Grailhawk
02-01-2016, 05:34 PM
Enchantment + Melee DPS screams Bard to me not EK.

Swashbuckling + Spellsinger 15/3/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue PDK

Tier 5 Spellsinger for mass hold, PDK for Cha to damage and hit (or could use the ehn in Swashbuckler if you don't want to limit your weapon choice to shortswords) + Swashbuckling, skirmisher, defender stance and Evasion. Thats one option you can probably also do a full 20 bard for this and come out good.

invicto15
02-02-2016, 06:48 AM
Thanks Grail how would you suggest I play an EK

Grailhawk
02-02-2016, 09:46 AM
... the idea behind him is to CC through enchantment spells then melee down the mobs, going PDK for CKT so that I can apply CHA to dmg

PDK Sorc 18/ Pally 2


The Eldritch Knight tree in Sroc and Wizard sucks.
Sounds like what you really want is a CC caster with a melee option.

Wizard will do this better then sorc because it has better option for DC casting
Wizard also has more feats making it easier to get both the caster and melee feat you want.
Harper is a better tree for mixing caster + melee then Eldrtich Knight which opens up Int to damage and Hit
I think Wizard will fit your desires better.

Sorcerer is not really the right base class for a DC caster.

Sorcerer have very little ways to bump there DC casting unlike Bards or Wizard.
A Bard has much better Melee options then a Sorcerer
A Wizard has much better DC options then a Sorcerer
Sorcerers have good ranged Spell DPS.



If you are willing to give up Sorcerer there are builds that can do want you are conceptually looking to do CC + Melee DPS, but as a sorcerer there are not enough feats, not enough +DC, and not enough +Melee DPS in the trees to even go there.



Thanks Grail how would you suggest I play an EK

I wouldn't suggest any one every play a EK the tree is just that bad, anything over 12 AP (Tier 3 +1 stat) spent in that tree is a wast.

invicto15
02-03-2016, 06:37 AM
Alright thanks a lot I think I will be dropping the EK idea and just play boom caster

Saekee
02-03-2016, 08:16 AM
btw invicto welcome to the forums!

unbongwah
02-03-2016, 09:11 AM
Wiz-based EK / PM builds:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/452538-Shadovar-Infiltrator
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/455033-Blade-of-Velsharoon

Haven't been updated in a while, so I dunno if they could be considered endgame-relevant anymore, but the basic premise is still sound. Main problem is still EK is a weak melee PrE. For something with better melee DPS, I continue to believe that wiz / bard (Swashbuckler) is the least bad option, at least if you have Harper.

Grailhawk
02-03-2016, 09:16 AM
btw invicto welcome to the forums!

Come on man, that not exactly fair. I did try and help him get the concept of what he wants.

You think there is a Sorcerer EK build that can work, as enchant + melee?

Kadrios
02-03-2016, 02:57 PM
Dropping Paladin and taking at least 3 levels of bard (for swashbuckling stance, tier 3 enhancements in spellsinger and swashie and the first two cores in spellsinger) would be where I'd go if I was set on a melee sorc build with some CC ability.

I ran a swashbuckler sorc on my first life (I'll admit, other than buffs, spellcasting - particularly DC casting - was an afterthought). I ended up going to tier 5 in harper, and only grabbing around 12AP in EK.


If you're set on Paladin, I would suggest picking up some more paladin levels in order to get some more DPS from KotC, and the sacred defender stance.

Unfortunately, the other posters are right, by itself, EK is not a great melee tree. However, that doesn't mean the basic concept (melee sorc with some enchantment capability) isn't doable, it will just require more work.

unbongwah
02-03-2016, 03:13 PM
I ended up going to tier 5 in harper, and only grabbing around 12AP in harper.
Ummm, did you mean you only put 12 APs into Swashbuckler, or did you find an exploit for reaching T5 for only 12 APs instead of 30+? "This one simple trick saved me 20 APs!" ;)

Kadrios
02-03-2016, 03:20 PM
thanks for catching that Ungbongwah, I entirely meant to type EK, but wasn't exactly paying attention.

Ghwyn
02-04-2016, 03:29 PM
Go fighter for the extra feats. 14 sorc/6 ftr works well, but I did a life as 16 sorc. Problem with going fleshy is you miss out on the self repairs. I've never had much luck with casting and melee; its best to do one or the other. EK as a tree works if you take advantage of it, but some try to make it something its not. My suggestion is go melee, wf or bf, and use spells for self repair and buffs.

Grailhawk
02-04-2016, 04:16 PM
Go fighter for the extra feats. 14 sorc/6 ftr works well, but I did a life as 16 sorc. Problem with going fleshy is you miss out on the self repairs. I've never had much luck with casting and melee; its best to do one or the other. EK as a tree works if you take advantage of it, but some try to make it something its not. My suggestion is go melee, wf or bf, and use spells for self repair and buffs.

In today's game do you honestly think that's even a good build?

16/4 will get you the feat you need and enough to actually say you have all the important once (I think) but:

you have lost 4 caster levels really hurting you spell DPS and lost some of the big damage spells,
you are on sorc who are what a good 4+ DC's behind wizard making your CC questionable,
you don't have the crit profile, or melee power, or DS/Offhand proc rate that a real melee has.


A few years ago right at U19 that build was probably ok not quite bad not quite good but close enough that you could make a go at it but with the crit profile proliferation that has gone on in the last few years that build is very far behind real melees, and has given up to much of its caster side IMO. Am I wrong?

Kadrios
02-05-2016, 07:06 AM
I wonder whether (assuming enchantment CC in upper level EE content was given up) whether something like a Sorc 11/Warlock 6/Bard 3 would work relatively well as an arcane melee. I'd imagine you could still get a reasonable EH/lower level EE DC with the help of the bard levels (and Scion of the Feywild), and the melee DPS and survivability should be reasonable. It would need to run in DC for full bab however (since Tenser's wouldn't be an option due to sorc level and penalty to DCs), but that wouldn't be a bad thing all told.

Might take a look and see if I can throw something reasonable together

Ghwyn
02-05-2016, 07:58 AM
In today's game do you honestly think that's even a good build?

16/4 will get you the feat you need and enough to actually say you have all the important once (I think) but:

you have lost 4 caster levels really hurting you spell DPS and lost some of the big damage spells,
you are on sorc who are what a good 4+ DC's behind wizard making your CC questionable,
you don't have the crit profile, or melee power, or DS/Offhand proc rate that a real melee has.


A few years ago right at U19 that build was probably ok not quite bad not quite good but close enough that you could make a go at it but with the crit profile proliferation that has gone on in the last few years that build is very far behind real melees, and has given up to much of its caster side IMO. Am I wrong?


Yes, it is still a good build. You missed the part where I said go melee. That means not dps casting. And it means taking dps feats. I offered this as an option, as I don't think a caster and melee are viable together, but melee in EK is. This build is fun to play (and a good way to do sorc lives as melee if you don't like casters) and is what led me to make the gwhyn build in my sig.

Grailhawk
02-05-2016, 09:46 AM
I wonder whether (assuming enchantment CC in upper level EE content was given up) whether something like a Sorc 11/Warlock 6/Bard 3 would work relatively well as an arcane melee. I'd imagine you could still get a reasonable EH/lower level EE DC with the help of the bard levels (and Scion of the Feywild), and the melee DPS and survivability should be reasonable. It would need to run in DC for full bab however (since Tenser's wouldn't be an option due to sorc level and penalty to DCs), but that wouldn't be a bad thing all told.

Might take a look and see if I can throw something reasonable together

Why Warlock?


Yes, it is still a good build. You missed the part where I said go melee. That means not dps casting. And it means taking dps feats. I offered this as an option, as I don't think a caster and melee are viable together, but melee in EK is. This build is fun to play (and a good way to do sorc lives as melee if you don't like casters) and is what led me to make the gwhyn build in my sig.

I didn't miss the "go melee" I said that I don't think the build you presented can active the Critical Power, Melee Power, or Doublestrike need to be a good melee build.


If its critical profile isn't at least 16-18/x4 19-20/x5 or a 14-18/x3 19-20/x6
If its full blitzing Melee power isn't at least 140 or its not LD Melee Power isn't at least 70
If it doesn't have at least 50% doublestrike
And if it doesn't have at least a +60 (SWF, TWF, & S&B) or +80 (THF) damage mod

I just don't think its a melee good build. The build in your sig doesn't brake down these stats can it hit those benchmarks?

Holymunchkin
02-05-2016, 10:05 AM
hey OP

I think a bard would suite the idea you are talking about best.
Go pdk
use shortswords
max CHA
16 levels of bard gives you level 6 spells, so...

16 bard / 2 fighter / 2 rogue

or if you want fighter stance and don't need evasion:

16 bard / 4 fighter

You could also go pure 20 bard but that would require an LR +1 and the feats get tighter

go Divine crusader with 6 ranks of cha
pick up the freezing ability from warchanter
pick up an enchantment focus feat and twist +3 to your DCs from magister

I've seen a pure swashbuckler use effective Otto's dance balls in stormhorns---

it can be done!

Holymunchkin
02-05-2016, 10:10 AM
if you have your heart set on an EK, I would reccomend 15 wizard / 5 pally bladeforged
go tier 5 KotC, pick up sacred stance
take low hanging fruit from EK

you'll get power word stun, otto's irresistable.
these have no save and are nice abilities.

dual reconstruct is still great, and haste/displacement/GH for nothing are perks.

the dps WILL BE BEHIND other toons
since...
...you do not have bonuses to critical threat and multiplier

however you will be unkillable

good luck!

Grailhawk
02-05-2016, 10:11 AM
hey OP

I think a bard would suite the idea you are talking about best.
Go pdk
use shortswords
max CHA
16 levels of bard gives you level 6 spells, so...

16 bard / 2 fighter / 2 rogue

or if you want fighter stance and don't need evasion:

16 bard / 4 fighter

You could also go pure 20 bard but that would require an LR +1 and the feats get tighter

go Divine crusader with 6 ranks of cha
pick up the freezing ability from warchanter
pick up an enchantment focus feat and twist +3 to your DCs from magister

I've seen a pure swashbuckler use effective Otto's dance balls in stormhorns---

it can be done!


Did you read post 2-4 or just the OP?

invicto15
02-05-2016, 10:14 AM
Thanks Saekee for the welcome, and thanks everyone for elaborating on builds and ideas l, that's exactly what I was looking for specifically was wondering if end game the path I was thinking of taking was viable. Basically no which I am perfectly fine with I'm open to trying new builds and making things work when they seemed like they can't, but for this one I figured I ask the vets for advice so thanks all for the help.

Holymunchkin
02-05-2016, 10:23 AM
Did you read post 2-4 or just the OP?

Are you asking me if I'm asian?

Kadrios
02-05-2016, 10:24 AM
Why Warlock?

Primarily for increased damage and survivability

breaks down into several things.

9 AP in Soul Eater nets +6 MP, +2 static damage and +22 USP, along with 25% fort and +4 to saves vs poison and disease.
Going at least as far as T4 in ES nets a decent amount of MRR, PRR and HP, along with passive damage from aura, and 3d6 on hit light damage
Also gives more low level spell slots for buffs/debuffs.

with a high attack rate (provided by SWF), then more on hit damage effects are always good - Elemental damage from EK cores, light from T4 ES, sonic on crit from resonant arms etc.

Enoach
02-05-2016, 10:28 AM
This is an interesting approach

Wanting to go Charisma as your primary. Using Eldritch Knight.

Now please understand that going with a Melee with an Enchantment focus can be very powerful, but it is also difficult to achieve outside of Bard/Wizard classes.

Keep in mind that your DCs will not be the highest because you will be giving up the Capstone. Depending on the difficulty you intend to run you may find High Epic quests difficult. But if you are thinking more Epic Hard/Normal then your DCs should be ok, the point you will find most difficult is Spell Penetration such as with Drow and Demons/Devils etc.

I would actually consider going 1 Fighter (Extra Feat) so you can fit in a Shield Feat or Move your Feats around so you can fit in a Spell Penetration Feat
Then I would go 1 Rogue level - This is more for adding in Sneak attack damage which your holds will allow.

Eldritch Knight Tree is in my opinion one of the most misunderstood. But it works best with a mostly melee build with a caster splash then it does with a Caster with melee splash.

Personally if I wanted to go with the basic concept of a Melee Enchanter I would go Elf Wizard/Fighter I would use the EK tree but probably focus more in the Harper Tree using Intelligence for Attack and Damage. I would then also use the AM Tree for cheap Enchantment spells in the core which will also give me a debuff through Charm which I can follow with holds in a 1 2 punch.

Tahkhesis
02-05-2016, 10:56 AM
Go 2 Fighter 18 Wizzy. Pop your points in the PM tree, enough in Harper for INT to hit/dmg/ and KtA. Could go Sun Elf for this, as going INT specced would jack your Spellcraft, making your light spells in EA sing. Would cost a +1 lesser though.

Or you could go the bard route. I went 12 Sorc/6 Bard/2 Rogue and it was a blast. Wasn't really DC based, way more swashy/nukey, but it was super fun through heroics, and pretty decent for EEs (definitely not EE above level soloable by any stretch). PDK would totally work for this. I think I went Drow, mainly because I didn't want to go to 28 (at the time) for TR train purposes.

Ghwyn
02-05-2016, 10:59 AM
Why Warlock?



I didn't miss the "go melee" I said that I don't think the build you presented can active the Critical Power, Melee Power, or Doublestrike need to be a good melee build.


If its critical profile isn't at least 16-18/x4 19-20/x5 or a 14-18/x3 19-20/x6
If its full blitzing Melee power isn't at least 140 or its not LD Melee Power isn't at least 70
If it doesn't have at least 50% doublestrike
And if it doesn't have at least a +60 (SWF, TWF, & S&B) or +80 (THF) damage mod

I just don't think its a melee good build. The build in your sig doesn't brake down these stats can it hit those benchmarks?

A good build is far more than just numbers dps breakdown. The build in my sig regularly does LE content with high kill count and usually the lowest death count. Also, there is far more to the game than top level epics. The build I suggested does work, as I have done numerous lives with different variations. These builds also don't rely upon special mechanic or bugs (like some wolf builds) that have to be done in an exact order or it won't work. While its not the highest dps build, I have stood side by side various top builds surrounded by mods, and when they were all dead, I was the only one left standing. Survivability is far more important than dps, but in all things there must be balance.

This build and its variations also work as a first life, as my daughter has an 11 wiz, 6 ftr, 3 pally that does fine in all legendary content. If someone can't make this work, its the fault of the player.

Grailhawk
02-05-2016, 11:14 AM
A good build is far more than just numbers dps breakdown. The build in my sig regularly does LE content with high kill count and usually the lowest death count. Also, there is far more to the game than top level epics. The build I suggested does work, as I have done numerous lives with different variations. These builds also don't rely upon special mechanic or bugs (like some wolf builds) that have to be done in an exact order or it won't work. While its not the highest dps build, I have stood side by side various top builds surrounded by mods, and when they were all dead, I was the only one left standing. Survivability is far more important than dps, but in all things there must be balance.

This build and its variations also work as a first life, as my daughter has an 11 wiz, 6 ftr, 3 pally that does fine in all legendary content. If someone can't make this work, its the fault of the player.

There is a difference between making something work, anything can play EN or EH, and something being good.

The build you present has good defense (I think haven't exactly done the math but it looks like it should hit the numbers) but it dose not have good DPS for the current game. If it doesn't have both good defense and good offense for the current game then it is not a good build.

There's also a very big difference between the wiz version and the sorc version, whether you want to admit that or not. The Wizard version makes up for the lack of "hitting the numbers" in ways the sorc version cant.

Ghwyn
02-05-2016, 01:02 PM
There is a difference between making something work, anything can play EN or EH, and something being good.

The build you present has good defense (I think haven't exactly done the math but it looks like it should hit the numbers) but it dose not have good DPS for the current game. If it doesn't have both good defense and good offense for the current game then it is not a good build.

There's also a very big difference between the wiz version and the sorc version, whether you want to admit that or not. The Wizard version makes up for the lack of "hitting the numbers" in ways the sorc version cant.

I say this is a good build for three reasons:

It is a fun build to play (the most important aspect bar none)

It can solo (which is important with the fend for yourself state of the game, which will hopefully change soon)

It can kill everything in EE and LE content.

I think you're too tied up on specific numbers. Few people want to play DDO like an accountant. I have run most of the popular builds that have been around the past five years, just to try them out. Out of them all, this is the one I have enjoyed the most and have not gotten tired of running it. This is main reason I promote this build.

Grailhawk
02-05-2016, 01:13 PM
I say this is a good build for three reasons:

It is a fun build to play (the most important aspect bar none)

This is subjective, but I agree is the most important thing.

Builds that are built like brick walls but hit things with a wet noodle aren't fun to me.

Holymunchkin
02-05-2016, 01:39 PM
as mob density increases dps increases
when you're dead you damage nothing

it is fallacious to say that defense does not increase dps

however one must be able to fight one's way out of a paper bag
of which I am unable

Grailhawk
02-05-2016, 01:50 PM
as mob density increases dps increases
when you're dead you damage nothing

it is fallacious to say that defense does not increase dps

however one must be able to fight one's way out of a paper bag
of which I am unable

So how do you build a melee sorc?