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View Full Version : Change Paralyzing DC to be based on item ML



Alavatar
01-15-2016, 10:27 AM
Hi Turbine!

Here is a suggestion for Paralyzing:


Make the DC for Paralyzing = 2 * ML of the item.
Create Improved Paralyzing (for Epic Levels) DC = 3 * ML of the item.
Have Masterful Craftsmanship etc. add +4 to the DC.

jalont
01-15-2016, 10:46 AM
Hi Turbine!

Here is a suggestion for Paralyzing:


Make the DC for Paralyzing = 2 * ML of the item.
Create Improved Paralyzing (for Epic Levels) DC = 3 * ML of the item.
Have Masterful Craftsmanship etc. add +4 to the DC.


This would create easily available weapons that would trivialize all content.

JOTMON
01-15-2016, 11:05 AM
This would create easily available weapons that would trivialize all content.

Doubtful, Paralyzing only applies on a natural '20' so compared to vorpal, smiting,banishing, disrupting... it should be more effective than it is..
* well, mob must roll a 1 to be paralyzed since their saves effectively make this a 'only fail on a 1 roll'...
a no save on a natural 20 or double value save would make it more enticing.

A level 30 paralyzer with a DC of 17.. instant vendor trash..and what we are seeing is DC 17 on every random drop Paralyzing weapon which is ***** and completely worthless in any epic content.
Why the hell should a level 8 paralyzer have the same DC as a level 30 one.. that makes no sense...

DC should scale with level of weapons.., A scaling DC for all these effects makes more sense than a static DC across the board.

unbongwah
01-15-2016, 11:09 AM
This would create easily available weapons that would trivialize all content.
So tweak the OP's numbers. Or add a Greater Paralyzing effect to ML:28+ weapons which has DC 35-ish. There ought to be a happy medium between "only works when mobs roll a 1 on Will saves" and "renders all content trivial."

jalont
01-15-2016, 11:16 AM
Doubtful, Paralyzing only applies on a natural '20' so compared to vorpal, smiting,banishing, disrupting... it should be more effective than it is..

A level 30 paralyzer with a DC of 17.. instant vendor trash..and what we are seeing is DC 17 on every random drop Paralyzing weapon which is ***** and completely worthless in any epic content.
Why the hell should a level 8 paralyzer have the same DC as a level 30 one.. that makes no sense...

DC should scale with level of weapons.., A scaling DC for all these effects makes more sense than a static DC across the board.

Paralyzing probably shouldn't exist at all. I don't see how people stopping all trash mobs from doing damage will increase the difficulty of the game.

JOTMON
01-15-2016, 11:22 AM
Paralyzing probably shouldn't exist at all. I don't see how people stopping all trash mobs from doing damage will increase the difficulty of the game.

Well with that mentality, there shouldn't be trip, stun, caster cc either..

Paralyzing doesn't work on everything.. you wouldn't use a paralyzer on a golem.. you would switch to a weapon that would be better suited to meet the situation..

The whole point of special effects are to have various extra damage and diversification to control and manage confrontations.
Its a game of strategy, not standing toe-to-toe trading punches until the last one standing wins.

dunklezhan
01-15-2016, 11:25 AM
Doubtful, Paralyzing only applies on a natural '20' so compared to vorpal, smiting,banishing, disrupting... it should be more effective than it is..


Wow does it? Is that why I stopped using them and just vendor or AH them now? Been so long I've forgotten, I just ditch them automatically unless its the improved version, but I confess I havent' actually read the effect description in some time.

I'm sure Paralyzing used to be save-on-hit, that was the point of taking 2 paralyzers on a TWF or an archer with IPS, and was why it didn't matter too much that the save was low because eventually mobs would roll a 1.

jalont
01-15-2016, 11:26 AM
Well with that mentality, there shouldn't be trip, stun, caster cc either..

Paralyzing doesn't work on everything.. you wouldn't use a paralyzer on a golem.. you would switch to a weapon that would be better suited to meet the situation..

The whole point of special effects are to have various extra damage and diversification to control and manage confrontations.
Its a game of strategy, not standing toe-to-toe trading punches until the last one standing wins.

Paralyzing works on MOST things and is easily available. That's different than a toon built to CC. Of course, I believe toons built to CC should take major penalties to DPS as well. I understand that paralyzing is pretty much worthless right now, and I kind of think that's a good thing. Killing trash mobs is the bulk of time spent in a quest, and making it so there's no danger whatsoever from those mobs isn't a good choice. DDO needs to become harder, not easier.

dunklezhan
01-15-2016, 11:27 AM
The whole point of special effects are to have various extra damage and diversification to control and manage confrontations.
Its a game of strategy, not standing toe-to-toe trading punches until the last one standing wins.


Yes. Situational weapons used to be essential due to mob immunities, creature types and so on, combined with DR or movement abilities that made certain weapons and tactics much more effective than others, and allowing different tactics solo than in a group.

These days, all that stuff would still work but because raw DPS is enough no one bothers, and it doesn't matter if solo or not: charge forward and lay down DPS is all you really ever need to do except during certain boss fights on certain difficulties. Even I tend to just carry a few different element types and I do that purely so I can switch to an element a mob is specifically vulnerable to when I get the chance, rather than carrying something to beat DR that would just let me do normal damage which is how it used to be. The new way is much easier of course in terms of hunting for gear and such, but the cry of 'link your beaters' is long gone, and the thing is that although it could be used to exclude people, what it mostly did was give you a quick - certainly not 100% accurate - view of the experienced players vs newbs in your group, so you knew whether you were going to need to take it steady or whether you could just trust everyone to know their role and crack on. Because knowing that kind of information was important because the game was hard if you didn't know what you were doing, even in a group.

Those special weapons need to be made more special again, not just vs crazy DR at end game, through the whole game, based on the power level of gear that now drops.

At the very least they need to add an in the middle 'on crit' benefit now that expanded crit ranges are more comparable between weapon types due to enhancements and so on, and make the instakill portions on vorpal work again without hit point limits. This 'on vorpal strike nothing actually happens because arbitrary limits' nonsense has got to stop.

stoopid_cowboy
01-15-2016, 11:53 AM
[/I]At the very least they need to go to an 'on crit' setting now that expanded crit ranges are more comparable between weapon types due to enhancements and so on. This 'on vorpal strike' nonsense has got to stop. Except for, y'know, vorpal.

Weapons "used" to be on crit. There was a time when banishing rapiers ruled the vale.
Then came the Vorpal nerf sledge hammer! Now all weapons that had their niche have been rendered near useless. Banishing, smiting, and nightmare just to name a few.
Also, I'd like to add that Vorpal weapons are pure garbage now!!! We all remember using vorpal weapons, knowing that the DPS was less than our choice weapons, but that lucky roll of a 20 would instantly slay the enemy. Now we get "Improved Vorpal" that works if the enemy has less than 2500hp. Whoopdee freaking hoo... Put that in the hands of a decent melee and a cit on a 20 will be much higher than 2,500hp!

The game has changed an evolved since various Nerf hammer blows landed. Turbine needs to take another look at these Nerfs and bring them back to their previous (not OP) state.

EllisDee37
01-15-2016, 12:10 PM
Doubtful, Paralyzing only applies on a natural '20'Are you saying that U29 changed the lootgen effect to be vorpal only? Testing just now in-game, my tempest ranger's water khopesh still procs paralyzing on every hit.

As for the OP, great idea, but the DC should be equal to ML. Right now, at least for water khopeshes, Paralyzing is DC17 and Improved Paralyzing is DC25, so it wouldn't change the power as much as it would make it more interesting.

Maybe in the interest of better scaling have the formula be Heroic + Epic*2, meaning an ML14 would have DC14 and an ML30 would have DC40.

dunklezhan
01-15-2016, 12:16 PM
Weapons "used" to be on crit. There was a time when banishing rapiers ruled the vale.
Then came the Vorpal nerf sledge hammer! Now all weapons that had their niche have been rendered near useless. Banishing, smiting, and nightmare just to name a few.
Also, I'd like to add that Vorpal weapons are pure garbage now!!! We all remember using vorpal weapons, knowing that the DPS was less than our choice weapons, but that lucky roll of a 20 would instantly slay the enemy. Now we get "Improved Vorpal" that works if the enemy has less than 2500hp. Whoopdee freaking hoo... Put that in the hands of a decent melee and a cit on a 20 will be much higher than 2,500hp!

The game has changed an evolved since various Nerf hammer blows landed. Turbine needs to take another look at these Nerfs and bring them back to their previous (not OP) state.

Yes to all that, I think it was a mistake to pull back on those effects because they were too powerful on certain weapons (e.g. rapiers, kopeshes etc), but then go right ahead and change the game to introduce the capability to get enormous crit range bonuses right across the melee spectrum, resulting in:

-Many of those self same weapons of concern becoming even more concerning due to named items ranges (even after nerfing again recently)

-Practically everything with a "melee" angle now has the capability of dishing out massive spike damage with anything they have to hand, never mind from some of the named items.

-In some cases - especially the named items - as Cowboy said this spike damage is so large as to be near an instakill anyway if the mob is low enough HP for vorpal to affect it in the first place

-This spike damage is now not even limited to specific creature types if you had the gear.

TL; DR - Vorpal does an instakill that any half decent melee can do with a standard lootgen crit. Vorpal adds some +W which is cool at low level, but near insignificant later because of all the other sources.

I mean... doesn't that defeat the point of the first round of nerfs they did to these kinds of instakill weapons? Why is vorpal even still in the game? What's the point, beyond low to mid heroic? Vorpal is supposed to be a high level rare effect. It ought to slaughter trash mobs on a 20 regardless of whether it's legendary content or not, as should banishing, smiting etc. if its the right mob type. These kinds of immunities 'just because' drive me nuts. It devalues real mob immunities that are supposed to make certain monsters scarier. I live with it on bosses because clearly you want those fights to be specifically more difficult than the rest of the same dungeon, but having these kinds of arbitrary limits vs trash mobs right across the game once you hit certain levels is a huge part of why I don't like high level play.

This is also what I think is one of the underlying reasons why everyone just brute forces now - massive and frequent crits make a mockery of the vast majority of DR and other mob defenses in the game so all the devs can do to make mobs last longer is make them bigger sacks of hit points. On the other hand that's a lot easier and faster so we get more content. Its just... for the most part not as interesting as it used to be, tactically speaking.

But also, re paralyzers:


Testing just now in-game, my tempest ranger's water khopesh still procs paralyzing on every hit.



Thank goodness. Maybe I'll take another look at paralyzing if it drops for my AA under the new system.

EllisDee37
01-15-2016, 12:20 PM
Also, I'd like to add that Vorpal weapons are pure garbage now!!! We all remember using vorpal weapons, knowing that the DPS was less than our choice weapons, but that lucky roll of a 20 would instantly slay the enemy. Now we get "Improved Vorpal" that works if the enemy has less than 2500hp. Whoopdee freaking hoo... Put that in the hands of a decent melee and a cit on a 20 will be much higher than 2,500hp!Vorpal was buffed to also include a +0.5[W] bonus, so that's something, but I agree it needs more. Something like:

+0.5[W] Vorpal
+1.0[W] Improved Vorpal
+1.5[W] Greater Vorpal
+2.0[W] Sovereign Vorpal

dunklezhan
01-15-2016, 12:40 PM
Sorry, I realised my instakill post/rant was totally off topic. This is about the OP's idea for paralyzing:

I think the DC could stand a boost of some kind. Whether your figures are too high or low I'm not sure. But I agree with the general thrust of what you're saying.

Lycaenifer
01-15-2016, 02:06 PM
So tweak the OP's numbers. Or add a Greater Paralyzing effect to ML:28+ weapons which has DC 35-ish. There ought to be a happy medium between "only works when mobs roll a 1 on Will saves" and "renders all content trivial."
This seems most correct, OP has a good idea, just need a bit of testing/work on the numbers..3

As for those who are not sure, I believe the last time I read it, it was on every hit, but the 17 save is so low, I don't read them anymore either.


Effect: Any creature struck by this weapon must succeed on a DC 17 Will save or be paralyzed. The target may attempt a new save to end the effect every several seconds; otherwise the paralysis lasts for 1 minute. Certain creatures, such as the Undead and Constructs, cannot be paralyzed.

On hit, it may be overpowered if every character was paralyzing every mob. So making the save very high wouldn't be a great addition.
OP has a good idea of making it related to the MinLevel, but x2 and x3 might be a little much. As it is right now, the 17 makes it so you only get the effect to stick when mobs roll a 1. This is the same as if you rolled a Nat 20.

Maybe change paralyzing to a slightly higher chance, and procs on crits?
A flat number based on min level ranges?
8-12 ~ 17
13-16 ~ 21
17-21 ~24
22-26 ~ 27
26-29 ~ 31
30 ~ 35

**These numbers are off the top of my head, if you are more experienced with saves than me, suggest a better range :) **

Aenastasia, my Ranger/Cleric, would like to remind you; Paralyzing Arrows exist. Last time I checked, it was over a 50% chance to paralyze with those on level 20 Elite quests. Trash is just a silly statue farm. However, that was like 3 or 4 updates ago. Got better farming toons since then.

Daine
01-15-2016, 03:51 PM
I think if you want to talk about improving paralyze you also need to consider cleaves, improved precise shot, manyshot, epic destinies, cursespewing, etc.

...I'd agree some sort of improvement is need though, at most levels, paralyse on a weapon is just vendor trash

Saekee
01-15-2016, 03:58 PM
Paralyzing DC acts on every hit, not just vorpal. Since DC 17 is low, we got into the habit here of saying that it will land only when a mob rolls a 1 on its save, hence the confusion regarding 'vorpal' procs.

stoopid_cowboy
01-15-2016, 04:24 PM
Vorpal was buffed to also include a +0.5[W] bonus, so that's something, but I agree it needs more. Something like:

+0.5[W] Vorpal
+1.0[W] Improved Vorpal
+1.5[W] Greater Vorpal
+2.0[W] Sovereign Vorpal

Yes, the adding the +[W] was something. But even the Sovereign vorpal is garbage. The Sov. vorpal is what, 3500hp? Picture a raged frenzied barbarian with a Sov. vorpal great axe. My barb on a crit will easily lay down numbers in the 6-8k range. So what good is the vorpal effect? Sov. vorpal should be minimum 10k hp's and preferably 15-20k (to the OP whiners, 15-20k crits are very common to most melee with adrenaline, even many blitzing heavy melee). After all, the base damage is much lower than weapons like Riftmaker and LG Great Axe.

But back to the original topic, yes DC17 is silly stoopid on a paralyzer. I feel that paralyzing fear DC on TF weapons is actually spot on. It procs frequently, but not every swing on every mob.