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Steelstar
12-08-2015, 11:32 AM
Hey, folks.

As we've mentioned in a few places, the U29 Legendary Raids will not feature 20th Reward Lists. Instead, you will receive Runes unique to each Raid which may be traded for the Raid's named items.

Why the new system?
This is best stated in a quote from Vargouille:

The most important factor here is that it allows us to reward hard and elite. In the past, it was common practice for many raids to simply play the raid 20 times on Normal. We don't want that to simply be the obviously best way to get the rewards from that raid. Since we do expect Hard an Elite to take more time and resources (and possible failure chance) compared to Normal, those difficulties should be more rewarding than Normal, as well.

20th lists are not ideal in terms of allowing players to play content in a way that is engages and challenges them. We know many players want to be challenged, but feel that method is "playing wrong" if they could get the same rewards faster by not being challenged.


This also has benefits, such as carrying across through Reincarnations.

So how will this work?
When you complete one of these Legendary Raids, "Rune" ingredients will drop in the raid's End Chest. (For example, Legendary Hound of Xoriat drops "Xorian Runes").

You always get SOME Runes, unless the chest is Ransacked. The exact number is based on a die roll, so there is some variance.
You get more Runes on Hard, and even more on Elite.
Runes are Bound to Account. You could run the raids on your alts and pass the tokens back to one of your own characters.
Runes cannot be transferred in the Chest.


The questgiver NPC for the raid you've been running will have a dialogue option that opens a barter window where you can trade in your Runes. The exact drop numbers, trade-in lists, and costs of items will vary from raid to raid. In the case of Hound of Xoriat and Tempest's Spine, the barter window contains all of the named loot* that can drop in those raids, plus an option to trade runes for Tier 1 and 2 Greensteel Ingredients.

Beyond this system, named loot will still drop as usual in the new Legendary Raids. That should cover the basics, feel free to ask questions here and I'll answer when I can. :)

EDIT: Worth noting, much like the 20th list from DoJ, the barter shop only provides non-Mythic versions of the loot. Mythic versions are still available in the end chests.

Atremus
12-08-2015, 11:36 AM
Does this go live in U29?

UurlockYgmeov
12-08-2015, 11:36 AM
Thank you. I like this new and improved system. Kindly retro-fit this to all existing raids (and do a minor loot pass at the same time). :)

and is guaranteed that
a) at most 20 normal completions equal shot at the new 20th list equivalent? (ie completion on norm guaranteed at least 1 Rune, and that the new 20th list is no more than 20 Runes?)
b) will always get more Runes on hard vs norm?
c) will always get more Runes on elite vs hard?

finally - can we have the proposed numbers for LHoX, LTS, and LCodex (aka LShroud)?

Attropos
12-08-2015, 11:37 AM
Wow, I'm speechless. This is actually really fantastic and finally rewards having alts and having multiple raid ready characters.

Paryan
12-08-2015, 11:38 AM
Hey, folks.

As we've mentioned in a few places, the U29 Legendary Raids will not feature 20th Reward Lists. Instead, you will receive Runes unique to each Raid which may be traded for the Raid's named items.

Why the new system?
This is best stated in a quote from Vargouille:


This also has benefits, such as carrying across through Reincarnations.

So how will this work?
When you complete one of these Legendary Raids, "Rune" ingredients will drop in the raid's End Chest. (For example, Legendary Hound of Xoriat drops "Xorian Runes").

You always get SOME Runes, unless the chest is Ransacked. The exact number is based on a die roll, so there is some variance.
You get more Runes on Hard, and even more on Elite.
Runes are Bound to Account. You could run the raids on your alts and pass the tokens back to one of your own characters.
Runes cannot be transferred in the Chest.


The questgiver NPC for the raid you've been running will have a dialogue option that opens a barter window where you can trade in your Runes. The exact drop numbers, trade-in lists, and costs of items will vary from raid to raid. In the case of Hound of Xoriat and Tempest's Spine, the barter window contains all of the named loot that can drop in those raids, plus an option to trade runes for Tier 1 and 2 Greensteel Ingredients.

Beyond this system, named loot will still drop as usual in the new Legendary Raids. That should cover the basics, feel free to ask questions here and I'll answer when I can. :)

Haven't thought too much on the pros and cons of this just yet, but one thing stands out: Runes are BTA. For better or worse, this seems contrary to the design of raid loot thus far in that any character on an account can get the raid loot without actually having run it. Any reasoning why this is now the case here or why the raid loot mechanic on loot owernship has changed?

(Don't get me wrong, I kinda like the change...just seems so ....out of character....)

slarden
12-08-2015, 11:39 AM
Can you tell us how many raids we need to run on each difficulty to get enough runes to exchange for an item (based on average roll per difficulty which I didn't find in the info).

That is currently 20 for each difficulty, what will that be with the new system?

My concern is that if the raid is as laggy as DOJ and there are fast dps requirements to avoid a failure condition, people will want to run mostly EN just like DOJ to reduce the likelihood of lag wipes. If you are significantly increasing the # of runs to get an item - that is a concern if the raid is laggy.

I am sure I've been in over 20 lag wipes alone since DOJ was introduced.

I assume tokens aren't given on ransack. That alone eliminates the 20-in-a-day issues to get a reward.

Overall, I like the concept depending on the # of runs required.

Steelstar
12-08-2015, 11:39 AM
Does this go live in U29?

Yes, for the three Legendary Raids in U29. At the moment, we don't have immediate plans to retrofit it to other raids.

Grailhawk
12-08-2015, 11:44 AM
So in the old system 20 normal raids got you an item.

Is it a reasonable expectation that on average 20 normal raids will still get you an item?
How many Hard runs on average will get you an item?
How many Elite runs on average will get you an item?

janave
12-08-2015, 11:45 AM
Wow, I'm speechless. This is actually really fantastic and finally rewards having alts and having multiple raid ready characters.

^Yup, this system is a real improvement for DDO.

Atremus
12-08-2015, 11:51 AM
Yes, for the three Legendary Raids in U29. At the moment, we don't have immediate plans to retrofit it to other raids.

Thanks! Needed to know how many Alts I should level/cap all over the next few weeks.

Follow on questions:

Edit: Follow on questions were Ninja'd

I like the idea a lot. One of the best ideas in a while.

Edit: I also assumed this only applies to the new raids. Sounds like a real good system.

patang01
12-08-2015, 11:51 AM
Haven't thought too much on the pros and cons of this just yet, but one thing stands out: Runes are BTA. For better or worse, this seems contrary to the design of raid loot thus far in that any character on an account can get the raid loot without actually having run it. Any reasoning why this is now the case here or why the raid loot mechanic on loot owernship has changed?

(Don't get me wrong, I kinda like the change...just seems so ....out of character....)

To me this makes perfect sense. Runes BTA, items BTC. It doesn't matter who you run with, only that you spend time running. The only thing that should matter in any game is that you play, who you play with should always be inconsiquential. There's not unique if you run with toon A or toon B and certainly irrelevant to anyone else. The consequence will be that you tie that item to one guy anyways when you finally pick what you want.

This is actually a great system that bridges the dilemma of players bombing through normal for the 20th list instead of trying for a harder challenge. Or the fact that normal seems more rewarding and less time spent when you finally run harder, waste lots of resources and get zip. Here you get more guaranteed.

Steelstar
12-08-2015, 11:54 AM
Can you tell us how many raids we need to run on each difficulty to get enough runes to exchange for an item.

That is currently 20 for each difficulty, what will that be with the new system?

My concern is that if the raid is as laggy as DOJ and there are fast dps requirements to avoid a failure condition, people will want to run mostly EN just like DOJ to reduce the likelihood of lag wipes. If you are significantly increasing the # of runs to get an item - that is a concern if the raid is laggy.

I am sure I've been in over 20 lag wipes alone since DOJ was introduced.

I assume tokens aren't given on ransack. That alone eliminates the 20-in-a-day issues to get a reward.

Overall, I like the concept depending on the # of runs required.

The exact number will vary by raid and difficulty. In the case of Hound and Tempest's Spine, our current (and very very subject to change) numbers look like this:


Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 50-150 Runes
Elite drops 100-200 Runes



This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)


It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

slarden
12-08-2015, 11:55 AM
To me this makes perfect sense. Runes BTA, items BTC. It doesn't matter who you run with, only that you spend time running. The only thing that should matter in any game is that you play, who you play with should always be inconsiquential. There's not unique if you run with toon A or toon B and certainly irrelevant to anyone else. The consequence will be that you tie that item to one guy anyways when you finally pick what you want.

This is actually a great system that bridges the dilemma of players bombing through normal for the 20th list instead of trying for a harder challenge. Or the fact that normal seems more rewarding and less time spent when you finally run harder, waste lots of resources and get zip. Here you get more guaranteed.

I agree, but would like more details on the runes given for each difficulty and the trade-in costs.

I like the system better in theory since it's more alt-friendly. It doesn't make sense to not run the raid with a character. It makes more sense to run the raid with as many alts as possible.

slarden
12-08-2015, 12:00 PM
The exact number will vary by raid and difficulty. In the case of Hound and Tempest's Spine, our current (and very very subject to change) numbers look like this:


Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 50-150 Runes
Elite drops 100-200 Runes



This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)


It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

Yes this seems great. I am fine if it's more than 20 runs on normal. My ratio for DOJ has been about 2/3 normal and 1/3 hard, but most of the groups could have run on hard but nobody wanted to because they were all on ransack and were going for 20th list rewards.

This is a great solution! Well done and thank you for making alts relevant again.

This is very easily one of the best improvements I've ever seen to DDO.

Qhualor
12-08-2015, 12:22 PM
The exact number will vary by raid and difficulty. In the case of Hound and Tempest's Spine, our current (and very very subject to change) numbers look like this:


Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 50-150 Runes
Elite drops 100-200 Runes



This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)


It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

This looks like a compromise to those that want raid completions persisting through TRs. I like this.

RistoffDervish
12-08-2015, 12:24 PM
The exact number will vary by raid and difficulty. In the case of Hound and Tempest's Spine, our current (and very very subject to change) numbers look like this:


Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 50-150 Runes
Elite drops 100-200 Runes



This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)


It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

I LOVE this new system! Great job! I can run raids and reincarnate without making it seem like a wasted tally. It might even give me a reason to dust off some of my 10 alts and throw them back in the fight.

I only wish it was not possible to get less runes on hard than on normal / elite than hard.

I'm okay with the dice roll mechanic, but I would like it to be guaranteed that when I run elite I will get more than running on hard. It removes the potential for a feeling of disappointment.

Krell
12-08-2015, 12:29 PM
Hey, folks.

As we've mentioned in a few places, the U29 Legendary Raids will not feature 20th Reward Lists. Instead, you will receive Runes unique to each Raid which may be traded for the Raid's named items.

Why the new system?
This is best stated in a quote from Vargouille:


This also has benefits, such as carrying across through Reincarnations.

So how will this work?
When you complete one of these Legendary Raids, "Rune" ingredients will drop in the raid's End Chest. (For example, Legendary Hound of Xoriat drops "Xorian Runes").

You always get SOME Runes, unless the chest is Ransacked. The exact number is based on a die roll, so there is some variance.
You get more Runes on Hard, and even more on Elite.
Runes are Bound to Account. You could run the raids on your alts and pass the tokens back to one of your own characters.
Runes cannot be transferred in the Chest.


The questgiver NPC for the raid you've been running will have a dialogue option that opens a barter window where you can trade in your Runes. The exact drop numbers, trade-in lists, and costs of items will vary from raid to raid. In the case of Hound of Xoriat and Tempest's Spine, the barter window contains all of the named loot* that can drop in those raids, plus an option to trade runes for Tier 1 and 2 Greensteel Ingredients.

Beyond this system, named loot will still drop as usual in the new Legendary Raids. That should cover the basics, feel free to ask questions here and I'll answer when I can. :)

EDIT: Worth noting, much like the 20th list from DoJ, the barter shop only provides non-Mythic versions of the loot. Mythic versions are still available in the end chests.

After seeing the rune/reward numbers, I like this system better than the old one. I like that you can pass them between alts. It reminds me of then I had 7-8 "shroud ready" alts for daily runs. I don't really have a problem with the "no pass in chest" feature but I am curious about the thoughts behind it. Maybe to prevent loading up with dual-boxing? The bottlenecks I see at this point are raid timers and ransacks. One is circumventable with bypass timers. I've never liked the ransack system. Ideally I'd like to see it yanked out. Worst case, make some money with some ransack bypass items, but that is another topic.

Atremus
12-08-2015, 12:43 PM
The return of Shroud Night!

Grailhawk
12-08-2015, 12:44 PM
The exact number will vary by raid and difficulty. In the case of Hound and Tempest's Spine, our current (and very very subject to change) numbers look like this:


Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 50-150 Runes
Elite drops 100-200 Runes



This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)


It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

System is sound nothing wrong with it but I don't like the numbers a better system IMO would be
Items cost 20 runes
Normal drops 1 per chest open (20 runs)
Hard drops 1-2 per chest open (13 runs avg, 20 run max, 10 runs min)
Elite drops 2-3 per chest open (8 runs avg, 10 runs max, 7 runs min)

You could also raise the cost to 25 runs I guess my key complains are that the number of runes on normal should be static so that you know exactly how many runs it will take to get an item on normal. lets remove the randomness from there please.

Tevasama
12-08-2015, 12:50 PM
Yes, for the three Legendary Raids in U29. At the moment, we don't have immediate plans to retrofit it to other raids.

This sounds like a wonderful new system. PLEASE do plan to retrofit other (including heroic) raids with this system!

I doubt I'm alone that I end up skipping many raids because there is no way I will run more than perhaps only 3-4 times before TRing. This would incentivize not skipping raids just because I'll never get anywhere near 20 runs until my final life.

Vanhooger
12-08-2015, 12:51 PM
This is one of the best thing in a while!

FranOhmsford
12-08-2015, 12:59 PM
Yes, for the three Legendary Raids in U29. At the moment, we don't have immediate plans to retrofit it to other raids.

Please do retrofit it!

DDO has too many different Raid Crafting systems and Ings.

Heroic Shroud and Greensteel works fine but:
LoB, MA, Reaver's Refuge, Lordsmarch, Madness, Fall of Truth and CitW could all be retrofitted to use these runes with the old ingredients for those systems being able to be bartered for runes.
Also - S/S/S could do with a barter system to new Runes with say Shards worth 10, Seals worth 5 and Scrolls worth 1 {Then say E-SoS or E-Ross requires 30 Runes and something like E-Ring of Silver Concord or E-Jid'z Tet'ka requires just 10.
Oh - Make sure that the Runes are unique to the system though - We don't want people trading in S/S/S or Lordsmarch Ings for Runes usable to buy Legendary Shroud items.

davmuzl
12-08-2015, 01:05 PM
Everything about this looks great.

xTethx
12-08-2015, 01:06 PM
Sounds like a great implementation. Would very wary about people finding a way to exploit this, stricter punishments need to be enforced if/and when this system gets abused. Cause lets face it, this will get abused easily..

bbqzor
12-08-2015, 01:08 PM
The exact number will vary by raid and difficulty. In the case of Hound and Tempest's Spine, our current (and very very subject to change) numbers look like this:


Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 50-150 Runes
Elite drops 100-200 Runes



This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)


It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

1) Too much variance. No one is going to want to struggle through an elite run, only to roll badly and get paid worse than if they had done hard. Elite should always pay better than hard, etc. Too many times I've seen this in something like FoT, where people roll bad and feel their time and potion use etc wasn't worth it and then don't want to do it again. Something like 25-75, 75-125, 125-200 is going to be much better received.

2) Too may runs. I have seen in DoJ where people loot items they don't even need just because "its raid loot". Back in my day (heh) people would pull something that wasn't helpful and pass it. Not so in the raid scene of today, people throw it all in the bank in case they do some epic reinc later and decide they want raid loot from 2 expansions back on their new build. Since you can only rely on what you pull yourself, without the ability to get an item in 20 runs you are effectively just lowering the drop rate. If I have 3 guys that each want an item, before that was 60 runs. Now its 51-150 runs. Thats... lets just say significant.

3) That it persists is an irrelevant factor in looking at how much farming is required; it is convenient for those who wish to reinc in the middle of running, but does nothing to curb the total time spent in the quest one way or the other. If your runs carry over, it just means you can do 10 now and 10 later rather than 20 in a row. Somehow making it take 25 doesn't "make up" for anything, its just requiring more time. Similarly, allowing "alts" to help is another false assistance... if you want 2 items for 2 guys (1 ea), you previously had to do 40 runs. Now you have to do 40 (or 34-100) runs. In both cases, you can "time shift" your runs, either between lives, or between characters, but you're still in there the same number of times, for the same length of time. There is no reason to charge us extra for permitting convenience; its convenience that doesn't affect the time spent in there so why make us spend more time. Think of it in terms of man-hours, we shouldn't see an increase, thats not more options for us. Its just saying "more grind".

4) I do like the added convenience. It allows doing something like getting 2 items for 2 guys (1 ea) and instead of getting both back to back after 40 runs, you can shift the completions together to get one every 20 runs. Or TR to take advantage of an xp weekend or something but not lose your progress. All this is good! But then turning around and saying that progress is going to happen after more man hours than the game's gold standard, well, that's just not appealing. We should not be "pushed" to doing 20 hard runs for the same payout rate as 20 normals, nor should a bad roll on elite make it worse than hard for rewards. Being able to run harder difficulties to take less runs should be an option, but not a requirement to keep up with the same rate the game has been based around for nearly a decade.

TL;DR version: Good ideas, change payouts so bad rolls don't screw players on reward, change costs so that we aren't required to arbitrarily farm more just because. Thanks.

Ovrad
12-08-2015, 01:16 PM
This also has benefits, such as carrying across through Reincarnations.

Finally! We've been asking to making completions stick through TRs for years so to make raiding more relevant again. TRing and loot gathering will no longer be mutually exclusive processes.
I'm sold! Scrap the 20th run list already! :)


Runes are Bound to Account. You could run the raids on your alts and pass the tokens back to one of your own characters.
Runes cannot be transferred in the Chest.


Brilliant! Making alts relevant again, and preventing multi-box cheating at the same time.

This is, hands down, the single best change in this patch.



Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 50-150 Runes
Elite drops 100-200 Runes



Although, reduce the variance, and raise the drops for Elite please. With those numbers it's still not worth running elite. Hard should be x2 normal (exactly what you have), and elite 4x normal.

Suggestion:
N: 40-60
H: 90-120
E: 175-250

Impaqt
12-08-2015, 01:19 PM
This system needs to be retrofitted to ALL raids immediately.

Systern
12-08-2015, 01:20 PM
I LOVE this new system! Great job! I can run raids and reincarnate without making it seem like a wasted tally. It might even give me a reason to dust off some of my 10 alts and throw them back in the fight.

I only wish it was not possible to get less runes on hard than on normal / elite than hard.

I'm okay with the dice roll mechanic, but I would like it to be guaranteed that when I run elite I will get more than running on hard. It removes the potential for a feeling of disappointment.

I agree with this sentiment to a degree. Steel would it be possible to bump the low end slightly to


Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 65-150 Runes
Elite drops 120-200 Runes




So that a "Bad" (N+1) difficulty run is still better than an "Average"/"Good" (N) difficulty run, but a "Great" roll still feels like a jackpot?

That only changes the variance from 50/100/100 to 50/85/80.


Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
Hard: Average of 12 runs (9-20 runs)
Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-11 runs)


Elite has the same average. Hard's average drops by 1 run, and normal is exactly as it is proposed.



EDIT: Actually thinking about it, I'd like to see that variance decrease the harder the difficulty.




Avg Runs
Variance
Rune Drop


Normal
25
50
25-75


Hard
12
40
85-125


Elite
7
30
165-195



The harder the difficulty, the fewer, more predictable runs you'll need to make...

Aredharr
12-08-2015, 01:22 PM
Quick questions: Would jewels of fortune increase the number of raid runes obtained from chest?

Vhayre
12-08-2015, 01:27 PM
I absolutely love this idea, it adresses every issue with the old system.

Rewards running higher difficulties
Lets us TR when we want to without losing progress on our raid farming
Leaves just the right amount of luck in the system, by keeping the mythics chest loot only


Only thing I would like to adress is the fluctuation in planned rune amounts. I agree with the other posters who have pointed out that hard should never drop less runes than normal, and elite should never drop less runes than hard.

If this system proves successful in the new raids, which I think it will, please do consider retrofitting it to old raids. I think it may encourage people to actually jump into something less run like an abbot or titan, cause they can then save up their completions across multiple lives and don't have to hope for a lucky chest pull.

PNGameAcct
12-08-2015, 01:27 PM
This is... not the worst idea they've ever had :)

Although I think I know the answer, I'll ask anyway: why can't runes be passed in a chest?

Grailhawk
12-08-2015, 01:31 PM
Quick questions: Would jewels of fortune increase the number of raid runes obtained from chest?

I doubt it. Loot jewels raise the level of chests rune drops isn't controlled by the level of the chest.

What this might bring is Raid Rune weekends where every so often they raise the number dropped by x%.

Cantor
12-08-2015, 01:33 PM
The exact number will vary by raid and difficulty. In the case of Hound and Tempest's Spine, our current (and very very subject to change) numbers look like this:


Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 50-150 Runes
Elite drops 100-200 Runes



This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)


It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

I love these numbers, spot on. Please consider applying this system to all raids retro at some time.

Arlathen
12-08-2015, 01:33 PM
Of all the changes I've seen and tested for U29 so far, this change is by far the best yet.

Removing 20th lists in this manner, and forcing people to work around chest ransack by using multiple alts and refocusing to running raids over time .... its a game changer. It will bring back raiding as a extended time sink for people to enjoy working towards.

Edit: Another vote to retrofit this to all other raids as well!

Krell
12-08-2015, 01:35 PM
I agree with suggestions to retrofit to past raids and to have the difficulty ranges overlap less, with roughly the same average number of runs to reach a reward.

Ghlitch
12-08-2015, 01:35 PM
So will these go in green bags, red bags, or will they not be baggable?

We need to know which bag we should upgrade. ;)

Marupal
12-08-2015, 01:38 PM
Exciting change!


Please retrofit this on all the other raids. :)

EllisDee37
12-08-2015, 01:41 PM
Of all the changes I've seen and tested for U29 so far, this change is by far the best yet.

Removing 20th lists in this manner, and forcing people to work around chest ransack by using multiple alts and refocusing to running raids over time .... its a game changer. It will bring back raiding as a extended time sink for people to enjoy working towards.Exactly. Everything about this design is win:

1) It provides definite, tangible, steady progression toward a goal instead of 20 runs with a chance of nothing
2) It encourages running multiple alts
3) It minimizes the benefit of bypass timers thanks to chest ransack
4) It persists through TRs
5) It prevents gaming the system by multiboxing

Win Win Win Win Win!


I would like to quibble on the numbers. The average "runs per item" look right on the money, but the silly high amounts really feel like a shameless play to sell bags from the store. Many of us simply will not buy bags because they are BTC. I have no use for any BTC bags; all my alts use the same, shared, BTA bags I place into and take out of the shared bank every time I log in and out. If you put BTA bags in the store I'd pay straight cash for them. But until then, from my perspective, store bags do not exist.

I also agree with the other posters that the worst elite should be a better return than the best hard, and same for hard vs normal. How about:

Items cost 125 tokens
Normal: 3 to 7 (avg 5 per run, 25 runs)
Hard: 8 to 12 (avg 10 per run, 12.5 runs)
Elite: 13 to 17 (avg 15 per run, 8.5 runs)

Darkrok
12-08-2015, 01:44 PM
This sounds like a wonderful new system. PLEASE do plan to retrofit other (including heroic) raids with this system!

This. This system blows away what we currently have. The only downside I can see is that you're now limited on how many times you can get rewards from a quest by the chest ransack mechanic. Personally I don't find this problematic - that's a LOT of runs of the quest to ransack it - but I'm sure some people will be disappointed. Flip-side is that if they have multiple toons they can ransack all of them for the benefit of one toon.

For me, I'm amazed at this new system. It's well thought out, well balanced, rewards people trying higher difficulties while only slightly penalizing normal-only runs compared to the current system. It moves to BTA for 'completions' versus BTC. Absolutely love it!

slarden
12-08-2015, 01:46 PM
Quick questions: Would jewels of fortune increase the number of raid runes obtained from chest?

No, but with the improvements to random loot, it will actually be worth using now in legendary quets/raids.

RistoffDervish
12-08-2015, 01:49 PM
I agree with this sentiment to a degree. Steel would it be possible to bump the low end slightly to


Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 65-150 Runes
Elite drops 120-200 Runes




So that a "Bad" (N+1) difficulty run is still better than an "Average"/"Good" (N) difficulty run, but a "Great" roll still feels like a jackpot?

That only changes the variance from 50/100/100 to 50/85/80.


Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
Hard: Average of 12 runs (9-20 runs)
Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-11 runs)


Elite has the same average. Hard's average drops by 1 run, and normal is exactly as it is proposed.



EDIT: Actually thinking about it, I'd like to see that variance decrease the harder the difficulty.




Avg Runs
Variance
Rune Drop


Normal
25
50
25-75


Hard
12
40
85-125


Elite
7
30
165-195



The harder the difficulty, the fewer, more predictable runs you'll need to make...

I like your edited proposal better. I don't want the overlap - people will remember the sting of getting less on elite than hard more than the thrill of hitting a "jackpot" roll. You can still feel like you hit the jackpot if you get 140 runes when 150 is max.

Impaqt
12-08-2015, 01:57 PM
I agree with this sentiment to a degree. Steel would it be possible to bump the low end slightly to


Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 65-150 Runes
Elite drops 120-200 Runes




So that a "Bad" (N+1) difficulty run is still better than an "Average"/"Good" (N) difficulty run, but a "Great" roll still feels like a jackpot?

That only changes the variance from 50/100/100 to 50/85/80.


Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
Hard: Average of 12 runs (9-20 runs)
Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-11 runs)


Elite has the same average. Hard's average drops by 1 run, and normal is exactly as it is proposed.



EDIT: Actually thinking about it, I'd like to see that variance decrease the harder the difficulty.




Avg Runs
Variance
Rune Drop


Normal
25
50
25-75


Hard
12
40
85-125


Elite
7
30
165-195



The harder the difficulty, the fewer, more predictable runs you'll need to make...


As someone who just doesnt pull raidloot, cant flag for Abbot, and rarely sees many Remnants, I have to support this.

Too many systems in DDO are dumb luck based. And my dumb luck sucks.

Steelstar
12-08-2015, 02:03 PM
Too many systems in DDO are dumb luck based. And my dumb luck sucks.

Much like... D&D! Unfortunately, about half of all people suffer from below-average luck when it comes to die rolls. :)

Thanks for the feedback so far folks. We'll chat about whether or not the ranges should overlap, and how wide the dice rolls should be.

SableShadow
12-08-2015, 02:21 PM
No, but with the improvements to random loot, it will actually be worth using now in legendary quets/raids.

Do they reach higher tables when you're in a 30+ quest, do they cap at 30, or do they roll over (bugged so you end up getting lower than quest level gear with l00t boosts)?
I saw a post here somewhere that seemed to indicate the roll over bug was back...

SirValentine
12-08-2015, 02:24 PM
As we've mentioned in a few places, the U29 Legendary Raids will not feature 20th Reward Lists. Instead, you will receive Runes unique to each Raid which may be traded for the Raid's named items.


I guess if you want to do something different with Legendary content, that's fine.



The most important factor here is that it allows us to reward hard and elite. In the past, it was common practice for many raids to simply play the raid 20 times on Normal.


Wrong assumptions. Wrong identification of the problem, and so wrong solution.

In the very recent past, it has been common practice to simply do 20 Normal runs for 2 reasons:
- drop rates are so horribly low, 20th lists was the only way you'd get anything you wanted
- influx of duped timer bypasses into economy made quick repeats possible.

Go further back in the past, and it was common practice in most raids to do every run on the hardest difficulty you could manage, because harder difficulties gave noticeably better rewards. 20ths were a nice bonus chance to get items you wanted if you'd had poor luck along the way, but more and better items were dropping in each run by running harder difficulties.

Like I said, if you want to try something different, just for fun, in new content, fine. But the 20-normals-in-a-row is not a reason to nerf 20th lists; it's a reason to improve drop rates, and maybe do something about duped timer bypasses.

/against suggestions to destroy current raid 20th lists

EmGreen
12-08-2015, 02:29 PM
The exact number will vary by raid and difficulty. In the case of Hound and Tempest's Spine, our current (and very very subject to change) numbers look like this:


Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 50-150 Runes
Elite drops 100-200 Runes



This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)


It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

Please add this to the original post - it's crucial information, so people shouldn't have to wade through the replies to find it :)

Atremus
12-08-2015, 02:33 PM
Thanks for the feedback so far folks. We'll chat about whether or not the ranges should overlap, and how wide the dice rolls should be.

You should have Zero overlap between difficulty. The lowest roll for rune quantities on EH should always be 10 runes higher than the Highest roll for EN. Continue this for EE to EH and give a 20 rune gap between these two.

Edit or drop the zero/divide the numbers by 10.l to line up with the 125 number that was proposed.

Iriale
12-08-2015, 02:36 PM
Hey, folks.

As we've mentioned in a few places, the U29 Legendary Raids will not feature 20th Reward Lists. Instead, you will receive Runes unique to each Raid which may be traded for the Raid's named items.

Why the new system?
This is best stated in a quote from Vargouille:


This also has benefits, such as carrying across through Reincarnations.

So how will this work?
When you complete one of these Legendary Raids, "Rune" ingredients will drop in the raid's End Chest. (For example, Legendary Hound of Xoriat drops "Xorian Runes").

You always get SOME Runes, unless the chest is Ransacked. The exact number is based on a die roll, so there is some variance.
You get more Runes on Hard, and even more on Elite.
Runes are Bound to Account. You could run the raids on your alts and pass the tokens back to one of your own characters.
Runes cannot be transferred in the Chest.


The questgiver NPC for the raid you've been running will have a dialogue option that opens a barter window where you can trade in your Runes. The exact drop numbers, trade-in lists, and costs of items will vary from raid to raid. In the case of Hound of Xoriat and Tempest's Spine, the barter window contains all of the named loot* that can drop in those raids, plus an option to trade runes for Tier 1 and 2 Greensteel Ingredients.

Beyond this system, named loot will still drop as usual in the new Legendary Raids. That should cover the basics, feel free to ask questions here and I'll answer when I can. :)

EDIT: Worth noting, much like the 20th list from DoJ, the barter shop only provides non-Mythic versions of the loot. Mythic versions are still available in the end chests.
I do not agree with many of the things you have done in recent years, but this is a great idea. Well done. Finally a system that rewards alts and not force a choice between TR and end game. Would be nice runes for the older raids too.

Very nice idea.

Grace_ana
12-08-2015, 02:44 PM
I mostly like this system. I think it will definitely encourage more raiding, which is absolutely a good thing. The only issues I have are:

1. I agree that there should be no overlap. If you busted your arse to do an elite run, you shouldn't get screwed in the rune roll. God knows if you're like me you already got screwed on rolls during the raid and paid for it already.

2. I feel some kind of way about toons getting raid loot from a raid they never ran. I get that the person behind the toon already ran it, it just feels really wrong. I think I would like it better if you had to have at least ONE completion of that raid on the toon getting the loot. Maybe if it was a flagging mechanism, where you couldn't get the trade-in dialogue until you completed the raid on that toon? We have stuff like that elsewhere, so it's possible.

I get that will be slightly less popular, but I do really think that raid loot is special. That's why it's BTC to begin with. That toon should have to experience it before getting anything out of it. It's still a huge benefit to only have to run it once instead of 20 times to have a shot at what you want anyway.

dunklezhan
12-08-2015, 02:45 PM
Can't even pass them in the chest? All LGS components BTA?

Now extraordinarily unhappy with what otherwise looks like a great 'unified raid loot' system.

Grailhawk
12-08-2015, 02:49 PM
Items cost 125 tokens
Normal: 3 to 7 (avg 5 per run, 25 runs)
Hard: 8 to 12 (avg 10 per run, 12.5 runs)
Elite: 13 to 17 (avg 15 per run, 8.5 runs)

I like these numbers.

temp42
12-08-2015, 02:58 PM
I would love to see more stability without losing variance, maybe even increasing it, impossible, right?

Does the roll have to be straight 25+1d50 for normal? or can we shift the curve?

so a roll where the average is still 50, the low end is more like 40, and the high still 75. Making the high end 32 runs instead of 50, 50 is a bit extreme for those of us that tend to roll low on luck rolls.

something along the lines of 36+4(d3 squared). You can clean the formula up a lot from that, its just an example, but it provides a variance from 40 to 72, with 52 being the average roll, but a good roll feels nicer, and the most runs you will do if you roll badly is 32.

If that sort of a variance is possible (it feels like it is to an extent with the way remnants drop), seeing the hard and especially elite have surprisingly high drops possible on lucky rolls really feels like a jackpot. Instead of, 'oh I rolled good, I have half of a run less to do', having much rarer 'holy ****, thats like 3 runs in one' moments are much more memorable.

dunklezhan
12-08-2015, 03:01 PM
Can't even pass them in the chest? All LGS components BTA?

Now extraordinarily unhappy with what otherwise looks like a great 'unified raid loot' system.

Quoting myself after having read the whole thread thus far to say: wait a minute... is this another anti duping thing? Gah! Those guys ruined this game, they really did. Not. Welcome. Here.

PsychoBlonde
12-08-2015, 03:14 PM
this also has benefits, such as carrying across through reincarnations.

i love it.

Systern
12-08-2015, 03:18 PM
Much like... D&D! Unfortunately, about half of all people suffer from below-average luck when it comes to die rolls. :)

Thanks for the feedback so far folks. We'll chat about whether or not the ranges should overlap, and how wide the dice rolls should be.

Steel, Can I ask for a recipe change?

Instead of 1250 Xorait Runes... Can it be 250 Xoriat Runes + 20 Commendations of Heroism/20 Greater Tokens of the Twelve/100 Commendations of Valor + 10,000 Plat? (illustrative numbers, very subject to change, yadda yadda)


A) The game needs more plat sinks. I'm debating rolling an alt, transferring 2,500,000 plat to it that's been sitting in the shared vault for 2 years, and deleting it because my main characters are all plat capped.
B) It eliminates "There's nothing I want in THAT raid, but I'll suck it up and run for the guildies" feel bad moments.
C) It gives a way to bleed out the duped damage to the economy so that it can eventually be corrected.
D) It just makes sense to have commonality through all your content, combined with unique to ensure purchases/subscriptions.


CitW/FoT have one shared mechanic... that was duped and so the reset button was hit for Thunderholme... And now the reset button's being hit again for LGS... The concept is very similar in what's evolving, and I appreciate it's being fine tuned... I just don't like that the previous efforts are being scrapped.

Having the Epic Raid Tokens mechanic returned incentives a raiding scene, and not just tunneling in on "this newest raid". Actually having a use for them (the raid tokens) further incentivizes the scene, and gives a "lever"/"knob" to adjust to bleed out the excess.

Grailhawk
12-08-2015, 03:24 PM
Does the roll have to be straight 25+1d50 for normal? or can we shift the curve?

so a roll where the average is still 50, the low end is more like 40, and the high still 75. Making the high end 32 runs instead of 50, 50 is a bit extreme for those of us that tend to roll low on luck rolls.

The idea that the most unlucky guy in the game has to run 50 normal to get an item bothers me as well. by the old system he would have already had 2 guaranteed raid items. 32 or 30 is a good number for max runs on unlucky normal only runs I think.

LongshotBro
12-08-2015, 03:26 PM
I like what i'm reading here from Steelstar.

Gol
12-08-2015, 03:30 PM
Actually thinking about it, I'd like to see that variance decrease the harder the difficulty.




Avg Runs
Variance
Rune Drop


Normal
25
50
25-75


Hard
12
40
85-125


Elite
7
30
165-195



The harder the difficulty, the fewer, more predictable runs you'll need to make...

This. So much this.

The variance in the difficulties is killer. As is, there is 200% variance in normal/hard, 100% variance in elite... No incentive to run elite, at all, IMO.

Mithis
12-08-2015, 03:31 PM
I have to agree with every other poster who has objected to the overlap. Running on a higher difficulty should always net more than a lower difficulty.

I also am not a fan of the ranges proposed. I do not believe that any player should find themselves in a situation where it takes ~3x longer to farm ingredients just b/c of bad luck. It is a frustrating situation which can lead to a player giving up on the process and the last thing this game needs is fewer players running this raid (I say that even while I admit this will be a popular raid).

I am not sure I know what the exact variance should be but probably not more than 2x...

Loromir
12-08-2015, 03:47 PM
I have to agree with every other poster who has objected to the overlap. Running on a higher difficulty should always net more than a lower difficulty.

I also am not a fan of the ranges proposed. I do not believe that any player should find themselves in a situation where it takes ~3x longer to farm ingredients just b/c of bad luck. It is a frustrating situation which can lead to a player giving up on the process and the last thing this game needs is fewer players running this raid (I say that even while I admit this will be a popular raid).

I am not sure I know what the exact variance should be but probably not more than 2x...

I'm not sure why it has to be a roll of the dice anyway. Why not make them static numbers?

slarden
12-08-2015, 03:51 PM
Do they reach higher tables when you're in a 30+ quest, do they cap at 30, or do they roll over (bugged so you end up getting lower than quest level gear with l00t boosts)?
I saw a post here somewhere that seemed to indicate the roll over bug was back...

I know it's limited based on character level, but I am not sure about that. I know I always saw better loot on bonus loot weekends (sometimes +11 stat items instead of +10 in random loot for example).

jakeelala
12-08-2015, 03:54 PM
Sounds like a great implementation. Would very wary about people finding a way to exploit this, stricter punishments need to be enforced if/and when this system gets abused. Cause lets face it, this will get abused easily..

lol like learn to solo raid, with 11 alt account/boxes there to loot

Blastyswa
12-08-2015, 03:55 PM
Yes. I'd include more than that, but honestly the one word needed in response to this is yes.

FranOhmsford
12-08-2015, 03:55 PM
1) Too much variance. No one is going to want to struggle through an elite run, only to roll badly and get paid worse than if they had done hard. Elite should always pay better than hard, etc. Too many times I've seen this in something like FoT, where people roll bad and feel their time and potion use etc wasn't worth it and then don't want to do it again. Something like 25-75, 75-125, 125-200 is going to be much better received.

TL;DR version: Good ideas, change payouts so bad rolls don't screw players on reward, change costs so that we aren't required to arbitrarily farm more just because. Thanks.

How about just making it Norm=50 {25 runs for a guaranteed item}, Hard=100 {13 runs for a guaranteed item}, Elite=150 {7 runs for a guaranteed item}?

Why the RNG in the first place?

If you want to make Elite have a chance for a bonus then fine....Just make Elite 150-200.

Propane
12-08-2015, 03:56 PM
As long as you can pass the actual raid loop drops themselves, I am fine with LGS being bound to account.

You can't pass completions today, that is what you would be doing if you can pass LGS...

Love the new mechanic - it would allow you to pick the piece of lot you want, not at 20th run have a chance to get want you want - much better!

The fact they bind to account - I can run my cleric more (who might not want the loot) to pass the LGS to my alts - great change overall!

Axeyu
12-08-2015, 03:58 PM
Brilliant idea. But I don't see the point of the random values. Don't add RNG to the RNG.

jakeelala
12-08-2015, 03:59 PM
without playing the raid i cant say waht the ranges should be, but if epic elite will take 4x longer to do (and that depends on if were talking about a top notch pro raiding guild or a pug) then the rewards to need to scale sufficiently. Epic Elite should be the domain (and difficult at that) of the top 10% of gamers I think, EH should be quite difficult for everyone else, and Epic Normal should achievable by a pug that knows what it's doing. If you nail those, then the average completion time and reward tiers should be easy to get right.

Chi_Ryu
12-08-2015, 04:00 PM
I agree with suggestions to retrofit to past raids and to have the difficulty ranges overlap less, with roughly the same average number of runs to reach a reward.

This post said everything I wanted to about the new idea. I think it's a good one.

UurlockYgmeov
12-08-2015, 04:23 PM
I agree with this sentiment to a degree. Steel would it be possible to bump the low end slightly to


Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 65-150 Runes
Elite drops 120-200 Runes



So that a "Bad" (N+1) difficulty run is still better than an "Average"/"Good" (N) difficulty run, but a "Great" roll still feels like a jackpot?

That only changes the variance from 50/100/100 to 50/85/80.


Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
Hard: Average of 12 runs (9-20 runs)
Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-11 runs)


Elite has the same average. Hard's average drops by 1 run, and normal is exactly as it is proposed.
EDIT: Actually thinking about it, I'd like to see that variance decrease the harder the difficulty.



Avg Runs
Variance
Rune Drop


Normal
25
50
25-75


Hard
12
40
85-125


Elite
7
30
165-195



The harder the difficulty, the fewer, more predictable runs you'll need to make...

I see the validity of this change.

As far as the randomness, maybe look at it from this point of view - you are guaranteed x number of Runes from a run, anything more is just gravy. The X being the lowest possible reward.

Overall I find this Rune change a breath of fresh air, relieving some of the stiff collar and stuffiness of raids. I remember running Abbot on my ranger to get Seals of the Black Abbot (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Seal_of_the_Black_Abbot) for my other characters to use.



Quick questions: Would jewels of fortune increase the number of raid runes obtained from chest?

+1 Rune per run per level of boost? so on weekends with a +2 loot boost, a chesthugger, and a huge/large jewel of fortune would be +5 Runes per run?

Interesting and worthy of further discussion IMHO.

slarden
12-08-2015, 04:27 PM
+1 Rune per run per level of boost? so on weekends with a +2 loot boost, a chesthugger, and a huge/large jewel of fortune would be +5 Runes per run?

Interesting and worthy of further discussion IMHO.

I think it should only help the random loot, otherwise it gets into the whole "buying raid gear" thing which should be avoided.

UurlockYgmeov
12-08-2015, 04:35 PM
I think it should only help the random loot, otherwise it gets into the whole "buying raid gear" thing which should be avoided.

yes, I agree with this point.

Jewels of Fortune - Chesthuggers, and Loot Boost Bonuses in general (including treasure maps and guild bonuses) will get a massive bump in usefulness if they decide to have it not affect the ML of the loot being boosted.

So in a level 10 quest without any loot boost grants ml:10 loot on the level 10 tables. (excluding ransack).
So same quest (level 10) with a +2 jewel, +1 guild, +1 chesthugger (chestblesser), +2 weekend bonus would grant loot from the level 16 (if I am doing my math right) tables.

* I added emphasis on the 'if' because it seems some people can't determine when I am speculating and or discussing suggestions as opposed to other things. :rolleyes::eek::o:cool::p

RD2play
12-08-2015, 04:47 PM
I mostly like this system. I think it will definitely encourage more raiding, which is absolutely a good thing. The only issues I have are:

1. I agree that there should be no overlap. If you busted your arse to do an elite run, you shouldn't get screwed in the rune roll. God knows if you're like me you already got screwed on rolls during the raid and paid for it already.

2. I feel some kind of way about toons getting raid loot from a raid they never ran. I get that the person behind the toon already ran it, it just feels really wrong. I think I would like it better if you had to have at least ONE completion of that raid on the toon getting the loot. Maybe if it was a flagging mechanism, where you couldn't get the trade-in dialogue until you completed the raid on that toon? We have stuff like that elsewhere, so it's possible.

I get that will be slightly less popular, but I do really think that raid loot is special. That's why it's BTC to begin with. That toon should have to experience it before getting anything out of it. It's still a huge benefit to only have to run it once instead of 20 times to have a shot at what you want anyway.

Yeah I agree with this the dialog option to turn in the runes should be locked till you char has run the raid.

SirShen
12-08-2015, 04:51 PM
The exact number will vary by raid and difficulty. In the case of Hound and Tempest's Spine, our current (and very very subject to change) numbers look like this:


Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 50-150 Runes
Elite drops 100-200 Runes



This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)


It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

OMG no no no no - Im very unluck with drop rates - you do know that 50 runs is 5 months work instead of the old 20 runs in 2 months. I like the idea of runes so u can do one raid and then TR and still have that raid count.

UurlockYgmeov
12-08-2015, 04:51 PM
Yeah I agree with this the dialog option to turn in the runes should be locked till you char has run the raid.

at least for raid loot, if it is something else like a tome --- ok.

arkonas
12-08-2015, 05:13 PM
Much like... D&D! Unfortunately, about half of all people suffer from below-average luck when it comes to die rolls. :)

Thanks for the feedback so far folks. We'll chat about whether or not the ranges should overlap, and how wide the dice rolls should be.

holy **** thank you. i've been wanting a system like this forever. this gives us a reason to run raids. i hope one day you can convert some of the other raids to this. i don't care if the number on items are increased at that point to make up for it. i know some of us have been wanting reasons to do it and this really is a perfect way to keep raids alive.

sirgog
12-08-2015, 05:36 PM
Outstanding change.

Three suggestions with it.


1) Keep some variance but reduce the low end of variance a little.

If you want 50 to be the average on Normal, how about this distribution:

- 60% chance to get 40
- 30% chance to get 50
- 8% chance to get 75
- 1.5% chance to get 100
- 0.5% chance to get 700

Getting 700 will be memorable and there'll be lots of screenshots of it happening. But there's not the feelbad moment of hitting 25.



2) Don't have all items cost the same. Have at least one 'prestige' item that's an optional long-term goal (like Epic Red Dragonscale was back at the 20 cap). If an item is build enabling (like Torc was at the 12, 14, 16 and 20 caps, or like the non-raid item Forester's Brush Hook was at the 25 cap) make it easier to get. If an item does nothing unique but is just higher statted than alternative items (e.g. Sword of Shadow at the 10 cap), make it harder to get.


3) Retrofit this to old raids and epics from the 20 cap days. For the classic epics, remove seals, shards and scrolls from drop tables, and allow existing ones to be sacrificed for runes. For older content where the gear is somewhat obsolete, require lower numbers of runes.

Mithis
12-08-2015, 05:37 PM
I'm not sure why it has to be a roll of the dice anyway. Why not make them static numbers?

I tend to agree but I also know from experience that the Devs are unlikely to go to a completely static amount. They have decided they want a range and will only tweak the range not eliminate it.

I am hoping that there will be enough comments/support for a narrowing of the range...

Henky
12-08-2015, 05:41 PM
How about just making it Norm=50 {25 runs for a guaranteed item}, Hard=100 {13 runs for a guaranteed item}, Elite=150 {7 runs for a guaranteed item}?

Why the RNG in the first place?

If you want to make Elite have a chance for a bonus then fine....Just make Elite 150-200.
THIS.

Also why not 5, 10 and 15? Why the high numbers? Do you (devs) want to sell more ingredients bags on store?

nibel
12-08-2015, 05:46 PM
It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

I'm ok with the average on normal being above 20 as well for the simple reason that the player have the option to select from the full list, instead of the ones that appear on the 20th list (eg, running 20 ADQ and not seeing a Torc on the list).

I like this system. A lot. Please, bump on your priority list a pass on all raids to 1) Add this system in place of 20th lists, and 2) maybe do a loot pass

blerkington
12-08-2015, 05:55 PM
Hi,

The details of how many runes and the costs of items are important. I would also like to hear more about your ideas on drop rates compared to other raids we already have. Do you plan to slow down the accumulation of raid loot for the less well supported raiders (ie, new people, perpetual puggers, etc) or is this mechanism intended just to speed things up for people at the higher end?

I'm not a huge fan of the way you're handling items having normal and mythic variants. I think it leads to people taking the same items more than once rather than sharing them. I would prefer to see two players with desirable items of raid loot rather than one guy with two of them, but sadly that is not what your system is promoting. What you should be doing instead is providing an upgrade path (which could be slow and still requires this raid to be run) from basic to mythic items. There is a lot to be said for the FoT loot model, I don't know why it is being shunned now.

Your new system seems like a vote of confidence that you have duping well and truly under control. Though if that problem ever rears its head again, even briefly, through broken code or version control issues you will be kicking yourself. Perhaps what you should be doing instead is recording rune number counts on a currency page a la NWO than making them items which persist in the world after looting. But then I guess you couldn't sell us any more bags.

Thanks.

Silverleafeon
12-08-2015, 06:23 PM
First read thru, I do like this new system.

It might be worth considering using such from now onward along with the mythic drops.

It might possibly be worth considering retrofitting older raids in future to this style.

Please do debate the math a bit and consider nonoverlapping options as you said you will do.

Hakushi
12-08-2015, 06:33 PM
I have to say, I'm actually speechless.

This is as close as possible as I would consider a perfect raid loot system.

In red are my comments:


Hey, folks.

As we've mentioned in a few places, the U29 Legendary Raids will not feature 20th Reward Lists. Instead, you will receive Runes unique to each Raid which may be traded for the Raid's named items.

Why the new system?
This is best stated in a quote from Vargouille:


This is more or less correct. 20th lists are largely replaced with the BTA "Codex Runes" (but different items for other raids). The most important factor here is that it allows us to reward hard and elite. In the past, it was common practice for many raids to simply play the raid 20 times on Normal. We don't want that to simply be the obviously best way to get the rewards from that raid. Since we do expect Hard an Elite to take more time and resources (and possible failure chance) compared to Normal, those difficulties should be more rewarding than Normal, as well.

20th lists are not ideal in terms of allowing players to play content in a way that is engages and challenges them. We know many players want to be challenged, but feel that method is "playing wrong" if they could get the same rewards faster by not being challenged.




This also has benefits, such as carrying across through Reincarnations.

So how will this work?
When you complete one of these Legendary Raids, "Rune" ingredients will drop in the raid's End Chest. (For example, Legendary Hound of Xoriat drops "Xorian Runes").

You always get SOME Runes, unless the chest is Ransacked. The exact number is based on a die roll, so there is some variance.
The amount of runes could go down with xp ransack when the raid is run multiple times in a row by the same character, like second run -20%, third run -40% and so on.
You get more Runes on Hard, and even more on Elite.
Runes are Bound to Account. You could run the raids on your alts and pass the tokens back to one of your own characters.
Runes cannot be transferred in the Chest.


The questgiver NPC for the raid you've been running will have a dialogue option that opens a barter window where you can trade in your Runes. The exact drop numbers, trade-in lists, and costs of items will vary from raid to raid. In the case of Hound of Xoriat and Tempest's Spine, the barter window contains all of the named loot* that can drop in those raids, plus an option to trade runes for Tier 1 and 2 Greensteel Ingredients.

This is a fantastic idea. Other options than the raid loot is always a good idea and gives players a reason to continue running the raid once their character/characters are fully equipped with items from that particular raid.

Beyond this system, named loot will still drop as usual in the new Legendary Raids. That should cover the basics, feel free to ask questions here and I'll answer when I can. :)

EDIT: Worth noting, much like the 20th list from DoJ, the barter shop only provides non-Mythic versions of the loot. Mythic versions are still available in the end chests.

I think you should add Mythic versions to the list, for 5 times the price, or add an option to upgrade the normal version to Mythic version for a high runes cost.


Yes, for the three Legendary Raids in U29. At the moment, we don't have immediate plans to retrofit it to other raids.

Please consider converting all existing raids to this system as soon as possible.




The exact number will vary by raid and difficulty. In the case of Hound and Tempest's Spine, our current (and very very subject to change) numbers look like this:


Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 50-150 Runes
Elite drops 100-200 Runes


I think the rune drops shouldn't overlap, the drop rate could be something like: Normal: 25-70, Hard: 71-130 and elite: 131-200. I think you could also add a Jackpot option like for remnants, the chances could be something like this: Normal: 0,01%, Hard: 0,05% and Elite: 0,1% (This is just an example of % options).

This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)


It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

Finally, I know this request will be unpopular and it's nothing new about this, but at the same time, could you completely remove raid timer bypasses. Or change it that it can only be used once to bypass a raid timer.

Heathir
12-08-2015, 06:58 PM
Steel, Can I ask for a recipe change?

Instead of 1250 Xorait Runes... Can it be 250 Xoriat Runes + 20 Commendations of Heroism/20 Greater Tokens of the Twelve/100 Commendations of Valor + 10,000 Plat? (illustrative numbers, very subject to change, yadda yadda)


A) The game needs more plat sinks. I'm debating rolling an alt, transferring 2,500,000 plat to it that's been sitting in the shared vault for 2 years, and deleting it because my main characters are all plat capped.
B) It eliminates "There's nothing I want in THAT raid, but I'll suck it up and run for the guildies" feel bad moments.
C) It gives a way to bleed out the duped damage to the economy so that it can eventually be corrected.
D) It just makes sense to have commonality through all your content, combined with unique to ensure purchases/subscriptions.


CitW/FoT have one shared mechanic... that was duped and so the reset button was hit for Thunderholme... And now the reset button's being hit again for LGS... The concept is very similar in what's evolving, and I appreciate it's being fine tuned... I just don't like that the previous efforts are being scrapped.

Having the Epic Raid Tokens mechanic returned incentives a raiding scene, and not just tunneling in on "this newest raid". Actually having a use for them (the raid tokens) further incentivizes the scene, and gives a "lever"/"knob" to adjust to bleed out the excess.


This is hands down a horrible idea. Let's take a player who wasn't here during the loot dupe Era and tell them they can jump into the new raiding system....BUT....it's worthless until you invest a bunch of time in other raids. Pass on this idea please. The system you proposed is great and should replace all existing raid mechanics other than heroic GS and the thunderforged system.

gphysalis
12-08-2015, 07:19 PM
The exact number will vary by raid and difficulty. In the case of Hound and Tempest's Spine, our current (and very very subject to change) numbers look like this:


Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 50-150 Runes
Elite drops 100-200 Runes



This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)


It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.
You should change your numbers.
All of this math is for normal runs, but it applies equally to hard and elite runs.

The average number of runs is not necessarily equal to the (total runes)/(average runes)

Bad runs hurt more than good runs help.

This is essentially because a bad run is *(1/2) and a good run is *(3/2).

+50% is less significant than -50%

if we average 1250/25, 1250/26, ..., 1250/75,
then we actually get 27.5 or 28 runs for the typical person, not 25 runs.

TL;DR

It will take most people longer than 25 runs to get one item, even though people will get one item every 25 runs

Lemdog
12-08-2015, 08:02 PM
This is seriously awesome - Hats off to the devs! :)

sirgog
12-08-2015, 08:22 PM
You should change your numbers.
All of this math is for normal runs, but it applies equally to hard and elite runs.

The average number of runs is not necessarily equal to the (total runes)/(average runes)

Bad runs hurt more than good runs help.

This is essentially because a bad run is *(1/2) and a good run is *(3/2).

+50% is less significant than -50%

if we average 1250/25, 1250/26, ..., 1250/75,
then we actually get 27.5 or 28 runs for the typical person, not 25 runs.

TL;DR

It will take most people longer than 25 runs to get one item, even though people will get one item every 25 runs


Not correct. The expected value is 25.5 runs (within a small rounding error) for the first item, and a further 25 runs for each additional one. (The .5 comes from players usually not hitting exactly 1250 - they'll instead hit something like 1267 or 1284, wasting half a run).

To demonstrate why your reasoning is incorrect, work out what you expect the 'average' to be if you had a 96% chance of getting 1 rune, and a 4% chance of getting 1250. Your reasoning (using the harmonic mean of the probability distribution rather than the arithmetic mean) will indicate an 'average' of over 1200 runs.

sirgog
12-08-2015, 08:26 PM
This is hands down a horrible idea. Let's take a player who wasn't here during the loot dupe Era and tell them they can jump into the new raiding system....BUT....it's worthless until you invest a bunch of time in other raids. Pass on this idea please. The system you proposed is great and should replace all existing raid mechanics other than heroic GS and the thunderforged system.

Agree with not using commendations of any type. Plat isn't a bad idea though - a quarter million plat is trivial for high level casual players to acquire but removing big blocks of platinum from the game like that would reduce the price of gear.

This would basically see these runes play the role that the power cells played in Shroud back at the 16 cap. Noone noticed the plat expense of them at the time but they did reduce the plat in the economy.

lyrecono
12-08-2015, 08:26 PM
more change.....

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/62761637.jpg
The playerbase can't handle so much change XD

great idea, the armor is almost as good as the shadowscale XD, the same shadowscale you order of the auctionhouse......

i hope the end reward list offers something useful in the future, the loot so far was a tad bit disapointing

Ganak
12-08-2015, 09:21 PM
I llike the overall idea.

Vargouille
12-08-2015, 09:30 PM
You should change your numbers.
All of this math is for normal runs, but it applies equally to hard and elite runs.

The average number of runs is not necessarily equal to the (total runes)/(average runes)

Bad runs hurt more than good runs help.

This is essentially because a bad run is *(1/2) and a good run is *(3/2).

+50% is less significant than -50%
The conclusion here is not mathematically sound.

The average on normal is 50, +/- 25 in equal measure. In absolute terms, -50% is -25. This is made up for exactly by +50%, because that's +25. Every time you would get more than 50 you are counterbalanced exactly by how often and how much you get less than 50. There's no math that makes +50% less significant than -50%.

1250 / 50 => 25

(To address those wondering where 0.5s go that are normally on die rolls, like 3.5 is average on d6: It also can be exactly 50 earned per normal run on average, if we make it so. For instance, 1d51+24: 1d51 averages to 26 exactly (no fractional remainder). 26+24=>50, of course.)


if we average 1250/25, 1250/26, ..., 1250/75,
then we actually get 27.5 or 28 runs for the typical person, not 25 runs.

Yes, if you do that math, that's the answer you get. But that's not relevant math to the question at hand, and doing averages of those things doesn't give you a useful number in the end, unfortunately. It is true that someone who is consistently very unlucky (25 per run) will take 50 runs (twice as long as average!), and someone who is very lucky (75 per run) only gets to do it in 17 runs (not twice as fast!) But those mathematical facts do NOT mean the average isn't 50 per run, or that 25 runs doesn't exactly average 1250.

Consider another way to count up the same information you are getting here: If you did all 51 runs to get the "even distribution" of all integer possibilities from 25->75 (as suggested), you would earn exactly 2550. This 2550 / 51 runs => 50 on average, of course.

But more pointedly: That 2550 that you got in 51 runs lets you get 2 full items for 1250 each, with 50 left over. That's exactly 25 runs each, plus that one extra (average) run. It's clear that 25 runs gets you one item, using the math suggested here - summing all runs from earning 25, 26, 27, ... 73, 74, 75.


/buildisdonecheckinginnowandgoinghome,enjoymath!

sirgog
12-08-2015, 09:37 PM
The conclusion here is not mathematically sound.

The average on normal is 50, +/- 25 in equal measure. In absolute terms, -50% is -25. This is made up for exactly by +50%, because that's +25. Every time you would get more than 50 you are counterbalanced exactly by how often and how much you get less than 50. There's no math that makes +50% less significant than -50%.

1250 / 50 => 25

(To address those wondering where 0.5s go that are normally on die rolls, like 3.5 is average on d6: It also can be exactly 50 earned per normal run on average, if we make it so. For instance, 1d71+24: 1d71 averages to 36 exactly (no fractional remainder). 36+24=>50, of course.)



Yes, if you do that math, that's the answer you get. But that's not relevant math to the question at hand, and doing averages of those things doesn't give you a useful number in the end, unfortunately. It is true that someone who is consistently very unlucky (25 per run) will take 50 runs (twice as long as average!), and someone who is very lucky (75 per run) only gets to do it in 17 runs (not twice as fast!) But those mathematical facts do NOT mean the average isn't 50 per run, or that 25 runs doesn't exactly average 1250.

Consider another way to count up the same information you are getting here: If you did all 51 runs to get the "even distribution" of all integer possibilities from 25->75 (as suggested), you would earn exactly 2550. This 2550 / 51 runs => 50 on average, of course.

But more pointedly: That 2550 that you got in 51 runs lets you get 2 full items for 1250 each, with 50 left over. That's exactly 25 runs each, plus that one extra (average) run. It's clear that 25 runs gets you one item, using the math suggested here - summing all runs from earning 25, 26, 27, ... 73, 74, 75.


/buildisdonecheckinginnowandgoinghome,enjoymath!

To be ultra-pedantic (and as I commented above), 25.5 is the mean number to get your first item (with a minor rounding error) because you can't stop after 23.8 runs or 25.1 runs, you need to complete an additional run. Rounding up adds 0.5 to the average.

Scuddy
12-08-2015, 10:32 PM
The system sounds good but the problem is lag. If it is impossible on most attempts like DoJ on elite to complete due to lag then it will only anger people if it takes more than 20 runs on normal or hard. Elite runs lately only frustrate me with resource use due to failure from lag or invisible blades. Using tons of resources when I feel completion is possible even if not guaranteed does not bother me. Wasting resources and playing time only to hit a black screen or frozen screen does not. I hope that Turbine has made these raids as lag proof as possible and made sure that lag is not an issue. Also is Turbine doing anything else to fix DoJ lag or is what we have the best it is going to get?

IronClan
12-08-2015, 10:43 PM
System is sound nothing wrong with it but I don't like the numbers a better system IMO would be
Items cost 20 runes
Normal drops 1 per chest open (20 runs)
Hard drops 1-2 per chest open (13 runs avg, 20 run max, 10 runs min)
Elite drops 2-3 per chest open (8 runs avg, 10 runs max, 7 runs min)

You could also raise the cost to 25 runs I guess my key complains are that the number of runes on normal should be static so that you know exactly how many runs it will take to get an item on normal. lets remove the randomness from there please.

Nah, the main thing wrong with DDO fundamentally is too much predictable static and boring clockwork. Since it's inception it has appealed to people who like charts and spreadhseets and an@lretentive scheduling (remember NNNNNNHHHEE repetition of every XP/min quest and keeping track of EXACTLY what quests you ran at X level to optimize TR XP? god the game was awful then). Everything is a grind when know you need exactly X. By folding some randomness into this and rewarding higher settings with better and also random ranged quantity rewards, along with allowing these to carry over through a TR AND be passed from character to character; what they achieve is LESS emphasis on predictability and straight jacketed "grinding" and "farming" habbits... Players are incentivized to care less about formulaic play and "just play the game"...because instead of looking at each raid as "20 cycles per item" you're thinking more along the lines of a fuzzy number. Or an estimated number. Thought processes like this:

"I need 7 more runs... i hate this raid because I've run it 13 times in the last 4 hours on the exact same character playing the exact same way but I'm going to hold my nose and plow through 7 more and never play it again"

Can potentially become more like this:

"maybe I need something like approximately 25 or 28 runs if I only do Normal but then maybe less if I do a hard or Elite or... Oh screw this I'm just going to run it tonight and maybe do it on an alt or two after that and in a few weeks I'll count up my runes"

Oh course running it 13 times on 13 alts is going to be a lot less repetitive than 13 times on the exact same character as well.

Basically you disincentive destructive play habits like rote farming to ransack/20th list and you incentivize people to just play the damn game until they have enough to spend.

Anyway obviously we have pretty diametrically opposed views of what makes a good game but IMO this randomness is an inspired choice, and the whole Rune thing is going to make for a more lively end game scene. With so many people who are "in TR mode" being willing to runa raid or three at cap before TR'ing because they're not missing out on a 20th list... this alone will provide more LFM filler.

IronClan
12-08-2015, 11:00 PM
The system sounds good but the problem is lag. If it is impossible on most attempts like DoJ on elite to complete due to lag then it will only anger people if it takes more than 20 runs on normal or hard. Elite runs lately only frustrate me with resource use due to failure from lag or invisible blades. Using tons of resources when I feel completion is possible even if not guaranteed does not bother me. Wasting resources and playing time only to hit a black screen or frozen screen does not. I hope that Turbine has made these raids as lag proof as possible and made sure that lag is not an issue. Also is Turbine doing anything else to fix DoJ lag or is what we have the best it is going to get?

This is a problem with the game, that DoJ helps highlight.

DPS/attack rate at peak levels is too much network overhead for the game to handle reliably without the server and clients desyncing (aka a lag wipe)...

EE is most lag prone because the people doing EE are the highest DPS/attack rate min/maxers on the server, they are also the most likely to have broken tree builds, and ultra fast attacking wolfs, Repeater machiguns, Warlocks spamming AOE's + aura's, Fury Shotters (well maybe not so much any more?), Shuricannons throwing 4 to 5 Shuricans X 2.5 attacks per second (potential 15 attacks inside of 1 second) which will have off hand and TF affixes + twists like Sense weakness and procs like Sunburst/Meteoric Augments going off like mad, broken TWF affix spam... etc. etc.

IronClan
12-09-2015, 12:25 AM
Can't even pass them in the chest? All LGS components BTA?

Now extraordinarily unhappy with what otherwise looks like a great 'unified raid loot' system.

What could possibly make you "extraordinarily unhappy" about not being able to pass stuff?

Would not being able to give the odd rune you no longer need to a needy friend REALLY make you "extraordinarily unhappy"? I mean worst case scenario: you stock pile the rune so some future alt might be able to turn it in.

Or would not being able to get at least 2 times more rune per run by multiboxing and passing all the ones from the alt accounts so that you gain ruins at two or three times faster rate be the thing that causes "extraordinarily unhappy"?

Trying to understand what possible motive causes such a flexibile and game changing system to make you so unhappy?

IronClan
12-09-2015, 12:34 AM
I know this is not going to be popular but I think 8 or 9 elite runs should not give us a 20th list (or enough runes to turn in for an item). I think if anything that overly emphasizes Elite, too much, but also leaves the best players on the server with less to do far quicker than other players.

30-40 Normal runs neeed to make enough to turn in
20-30 if you do all hard runs
15-20 for all Elite

Would seem likely to be the sweet spot between getting people to run it and not running out of goals too quickly.

Considering that Hard and Elite are liable to have the newer more generous DoJ drop rates, I think people will be pulling 1 item and getting another item in 8 or 9 runs... that's too generous... and we don't want to make the drop rates on the items MoD like so the best thing to do is make the "20th completion" (the equivelent in runes) closer to 20 and much MUCH more than the 10-ish being floated about in here.

10 ish Elite runs to get enough for a turn in is too low by a lot.

SirValentine
12-09-2015, 02:13 AM
The conclusion here is not mathematically sound.
...
The average on normal is...
...
Yes, if you do that math, that's the answer you get. But that's not relevant math to the question at hand, and doing averages of those things doesn't give you a useful number in the end, unfortunately.
...
/buildisdonecheckinginnowandgoinghome,enjoymath!

Anyone trying to get technical about math should be banned from using the word "average". If you mean "arithmetic mean", mean it!

"Average" is a vague colloquial term that has multiple different mathematical meanings. Personally I'm rather fond of the geometric mean in lots of cases. And I know the median has many fans. Who likes the mode, though? No need to bring in the more exotic types.

Hmm...so, rethinking it, I'm going to have to disagree a bit on usefulness of which numbers. In this case, I think median number of runs is more appropriate than the arithmetic mean.

dunklezhan
12-09-2015, 02:25 AM
Nah, the main thing wrong with DDO fundamentally is too much predictable static and boring clockwork. Since it's inception it has appealed to people who like charts and spreadhseets and an@lretentive scheduling (remember NNNNNNHHHEE repetition of every XP/min quest and keeping track of EXACTLY what quests you ran at X level to optimize TR XP? god the game was awful then). Everything is a grind when know you need exactly X. By folding some randomness into this and rewarding higher settings with better and also random ranged quantity rewards, along with allowing these to carry over through a TR AND be passed from character to character; what they achieve is LESS emphasis on predictability and straight jacketed "grinding" and "farming" habbits... Players are incentivized to care less about formulaic play and "just play the game"...because instead of looking at each raid as "20 cycles per item" you're thinking more along the lines of a fuzzy number. Or an estimated number.



I don't mind random, as long as I can see progress happening. For this reason the raid rune mechanics seem good as far as I'm concerned. What I hate (and what they have thankfully avoided in the new Raid/LGS loot mechanic) is random turn in rewards - e.g. mimic hunt rewards where you got random amounts towards a trade in value (which was fine) but then when you traded in, what you got was non-predictable. That was incredibly disincentivising.

So I actually really like the sound of the new system, except for one thing which near-ruins it for me: the lack of trading.

I am very unhappy about the lack of trading in the new system, in particular not being able to pass raid runes even in the chest. I assume there was some exploit possible around that in the past, but it sucks balls - what if I don't want Xorian Runes, and I was only running the raid because a guildie wants them and I was making up the numbers on an alt (maybe my main is on timer)? Now I have to have my backpack cluttered up and can't help out a buddy? What's that about?

dunklezhan
12-09-2015, 02:33 AM
What could possibly make you "extraordinarily unhappy" about not being able to pass stuff?

Would not being able to give the odd rune you no longer need to a needy friend REALLY make you "extraordinarily unhappy"? I mean worst case scenario: you stock pile the rune so some future alt might be able to turn it in.

Or would not being able to get at least 2 times more rune per run by multiboxing and passing all the ones from the alt accounts so that you gain ruins at two or three times faster rate be the thing that causes "extraordinarily unhappy"?

Trying to understand what possible motive causes such a flexibile and game changing system to make you so unhappy?

First reason IronClan.

I like to be part of a community. I don't necessarily raid for my own benefit, the rewards take so long to get that I am generally doing it because others want to. A system like this is good because it means if I do decide to try for some loot, I can see how I'm progressing, plan what I want to run and so on. But the rest of the time, I'm likely to be running a raid because someone said 'hey I want to do X so I can work towards Y, who's coming' - in those situations there's a good chance I want to help that person more than just turning up for the raid, I'd like to be able to pass them my rune. And vice versa for that matter - I give up on grind quite quickly. My guildies are awesome. Those two things combine: there's a good chance if I did decide I wanted a specific piece of loot that they would all come, and all pass me their runes for a couple of runs to help get me there faster and not have to spend months running the raid every three days religiously. I don't understand the problem with that. It seems much less problematic to me than talking about using timers to get 20 completions in an hour.

I'm a casual player. I'm not going to run every raid I need every three days - there won't be enough time or LFMs for that and legendary is likely to be very tough so completion isn't going to be guaranteed anyway (which is fine, right and proper, its legendary). So without a trading mechanic, the loot is effectively entirely out of reach for me. Frankly I don't mind not getting the loot, I have never minded not getting the loot which is a good job because quite honestly any loot I have is only there because kind guildies handed it down to me, the loot gods have hated me from the moment I got a bauble my first time out very early on in my DDO career. Its like I'm being punished. Anyway - me not being able to pass it in the chest makes it effectively wasted loot if its from a line of loot I am not actively working towards. That's horrible, when I know there's a guildie or five who will be trying very hard to get said loot. On the rare occasions when my presence crosses theirs in enough numbers to actually form a raid group.... I want to be able to make sure I can help them.

I don't understand the multiboxing reference, I don't multibox. I have enough trouble following the group, let alone following myself. But it seems to me that what you describe is exactly what I just described, only I'm talking about real other people and you're talking about some kind of wierd Ouroubourus arrangement with myself. Whatever. I don't have a problem with multiboxers, I dont' really understand what the problem is - if someone can run two three four accounts at once and complete a raid, then their ninja multi-keyboard skills are amazing and I am in awe, they can have the loot if they want it.

Systern
12-09-2015, 02:46 AM
This is hands down a horrible idea. Let's take a player who wasn't here during the loot dupe Era and tell them they can jump into the new raiding system....BUT....it's worthless until you invest a bunch of time in other raids. Pass on this idea please. The system you proposed is great and should replace all existing raid mechanics other than heroic GS and the thunderforged system.


Agree with not using commendations of any type. Plat isn't a bad idea though - a quarter million plat is trivial for high level casual players to acquire but removing big blocks of platinum from the game like that would reduce the price of gear.

This would basically see these runes play the role that the power cells played in Shroud back at the 16 cap. Noone noticed the plat expense of them at the time but they did reduce the plat in the economy.



Varg posted earlier (2 days ago?) that they're open to suggestions that met the criteria that a player can't walk into new content with everything needed to craft the new stuff.

My response is "why does everything needed to craft need to be exclusive to the new content? Something? Yes. Everything? No."

And let's be real here, there's more of us drowning in plat, epic tokens, raid tokens, and commendations from years of playing with no way to spend them as fast as we acquire them then there are new players. The "think of the children" excuse isn't a valid justification. Why do players need to walk into each update of new content with basically 0 wealth, since everything we want in that pack is created by stuff exclusive to that pack. What about all the other "wealth" that we acquire throughout our normal gaming lives, like plat, and coms, and tokens, and remnants? Why does each update invalidate all previous currencies?


"But people duped!" So... fix it. Early adopter taxes. Temporary inflation of costs in recipes. Something other than 'Give up, throw your hands in the air, and start over'... because that's what they've been doing for years.
At least Tokens are passable, so friends and guildies can help the poor new guys that might find the adjustment period sucky.

Crystal Cove gave out too many low level doubloons, that could buy dowsing rods that you could sell to vendors... so people maxxed their plat and messed up the AH.
So Shard Exchange came out, now the 10% AH fees no longer culled the economy because nothing worthwhile is ever put on the AH because at least dupers aren't capped on astral shards.

And then Bagopalooza happened and the same thing happened with Commendations of Heroism...
And Commendations of Valor...
And Ingots and Phlogs...

And then Cardopalooza...

And still there's no idea on how to fix the damage, and I guess they found "Extreme Prejudice" on 40-70% of the playerbase untenable (or 99.9999% if the forums are to believed "everyone but me duped!")... so, give up; start over once again.

But the "invalidate and start over" mentality in the economy and Mortal Fear and RTB responses doesn't help the longevity of the game for those of us that are still here... I don't know. Maybe it's just time for me to move on as well. The one piece of stable wealth I have left, my gear, is about to be "U19-pre-ghostbaning"ed by the random loot changes.

SirShen
12-09-2015, 05:00 AM
Why not just make it it simple?

Normal run = 1 raid token.
Hard run = 1 raid token plus a roll of fragments.
Elite run = 2 raid tokens.

25 tokens is 1 raid item trade in (it look like you want all the players todo 25 runs of a raid now, is this because you can TR?)
100 fragments is 1 raid token.

I just seen this post so adding it to mine

System is sound nothing wrong with it but I don't like the numbers a better system IMO would be
Items cost 20 runes
Normal drops 1 per chest open (20 runs)
Hard drops 1-2 per chest open (13 runs avg, 20 run max, 10 runs min)
Elite drops 2-3 per chest open (8 runs avg, 10 runs max, 7 runs min)

You could also raise the cost to 25 runs I guess my key complains are that the number of runes on normal should be static so that you know exactly how many runs it will take to get an item on normal. lets remove the randomness from there please.

Yes i hate the randomness. I dont want to be so unlucky that i have to run a raid 50 times to get an item.

sirgog
12-09-2015, 06:40 AM
Anyone trying to get technical about math should be banned from using the word "average". If you mean "arithmetic mean", mean it!

"Average" is a vague colloquial term that has multiple different mathematical meanings. Personally I'm rather fond of the geometric mean in lots of cases. And I know the median has many fans. Who likes the mode, though? No need to bring in the more exotic types.

Hmm...so, rethinking it, I'm going to have to disagree a bit on usefulness of which numbers. In this case, I think median number of runs is more appropriate than the arithmetic mean.

Median is very difficult to compute in a situation like this. Arithmetic mean is the most useful both because it is the technical definition of average, and because it lines up with the number of attempts needed if 10000 people each make one item (this would take about 254900 successful Normal completions).

The comment that the dev response was to was someone using the harmonic mean (which is a pretty meaningless form of 'average').

The most useful number to quote is actually the 95% confidence interval, which is a lot of work to compute but can be quickly estimated with a million run monte carlo simulation (which should take only seconds on a modern computer). Run a million simulation runs, order the number of runs from least to most, and report the result of the 25000th best and 25000th worst. 95% of players will get their item in between those limits.

JonD
12-09-2015, 07:13 AM
The average on normal is 50, +/- 25 in equal measure.
...
(To address those wondering where 0.5s go that are normally on die rolls, like 3.5 is average on d6: It also can be exactly 50 earned per normal run on average, if we make it so. For instance, 1d71+24: 1d71 averages to 36 exactly (no fractional remainder). 36+24=>50, of course.)

I suspect this is just a typo, but 1d71+24 gives a range of 25 to 95 (not 75), and 36+24=>60 (not 50). I expect the "1d71" should have been "1d51" to give 1d51+24 for a range of 25 to 75, a die roll average of 26, and therefore an overall average of 26+24=>50. I'm not being pedantic for the sake of it, I just want to point out the error before someone uses it to "prove" that the new system is guaranteed to be rubbish (there's always one - yes, I'm cynical).

Vargouille appears to have fallen victim to the internet trap that whenever you're correcting someone's spelling / grammar / mathematics there's almost certainly going to be an error in your own spelling / grammar / mathematics. :)

Epicstorms
12-09-2015, 07:25 AM
Great system, I just worry about one thing.
If chests actually drops an item, ingredient, whatever, I fear that one day these items will magically become more and more.

Can we not get a system where your 'runes' are counted in a separate window, thus not requiring any 'physical' item?
(If that's unclear: Something like favor. Every time you complete a quest this number gets higher. In this case a raid obviously, and normal/hard/elite give different values. Just this time you are actually able to spend some of this number for an item. :P )

ArekDorun
12-09-2015, 07:41 AM
I agree that the ranges probably shouldn't overlap. Otherwise, this system is amazing and needs to be implemented in old raids (replacing the 20th lists in them) asap. It's on those raids that this new system will shine. Please consider replacing 20th lists with this ASAP, perhaps using a system similar to that used by Commendations of Valor (ie given out as end rewards based on the difficulty run).

--ArekDorun

XbaileyX
12-09-2015, 07:46 AM
Thank you. This looks awesome!!

SableShadow
12-09-2015, 07:47 AM
If you mean "arithmetic mean", mean it!

So much mean-ness on the forums. :(



Who likes the mode, though?

Huh?
Ice cream is great with pi!

...

I'll see myself out.


...
Instead of 1250 Xorait Runes... Can it be 250 Xoriat Runes + 20 Commendations of Heroism/20 Greater Tokens of the Twelve/100 Commendations of Valor + 10,000 Plat? (illustrative numbers, very subject to change, yadda yadda)
...
and gives a "lever"/"knob" to adjust to bleed out the excess.

It would have to be millions of plat, and for tens (not hundreds) of runes, on some kind of schedule (once per life, once per week, whatever).

My gut says it wouldn't be a good idea to use the endgame raid as the economy sink; maybe something more like being able to buy remnants (1M plat gets you 100 remmants?) or something like that.

Holymunchkin
12-09-2015, 08:15 AM
20th lists were created as a sure way of obtaining raid loot for people who did not get lucky. Making rune rewards with large variation is contrary to this.
In pnp my DM always gave us a free natural 20 per night, at any time of our choosing. (It was called a "heroism point".)
This was to ensure that we didn't get screwed all night---and that an important moment was up to us.
50 + 1d50 as the die is not what what we should be seeing. 65 + 1d20 is how it should work.
Do not include large variation. We have chests with randomality. It irks me that you guys think that RNG is fun across the board. It has its place. As does a "point of heroism."
Do not make the rune rewards extended RNG. It honestly bothers more than a few people if you're removing the 20th system. That said the new system looks great in all other ways, and I look forward to seeing it in game.

FestusHood
12-09-2015, 08:20 AM
This solves the single biggest problem i personally had, which was characters that i wanted to tr being forced to stagnate at cap while waiting to get 20th completions.

I'm not terribly concerned with how you tweak the numbers. I don't mind a little overlap, since over the course of many runs the odds will work out, even if a few individual runs might not.

I do think expecting to complete an item in only 8 or so runs by running elite makes it a little too fast for those players who can routinely do that.

FestusHood
12-09-2015, 08:28 AM
20th lists were created as a sure way of obtaining raid loot for people who did not get lucky. Making rune rewards with large variation is contrary to this.
In pnp my DM always gave us a free natural 20 per night, at any time of our choosing. (It was called a "heroism point".)
This was to ensure that we didn't get screwed all night---and that an important moment was up to us.
50 + 1d50 as the die is not what what we should be seeing. 65 + 1d20 is how it should work.
Do not include large variation. We have chests with randomality. It irks me that you guys think that RNG is fun across the board. It has its place. As does a "point of heroism."
Do not make the rune rewards extended RNG. It honestly bothers more than a few people if you're removing the 20th system. That said the new system looks great in all other ways, and I look forward to seeing it in game.

At least in this system you will always get something. It's not like thunderholme where an unlucky roll means you get zip.

It's not too unlike having a lot of + (w) effects on weapons. The more of those there are, the higher the variance in actual damage output will be, but overall the higher base damage weapons will win out.

I will agree that some overlap is ok, but not so much that 50% of hard runs will provide the same number of runes that the player would have gotten had they run normal. That's the case with Fall of Truth. Hard gives 1-2 coms, so a full 50% of the time you will get the same reward you would have gotten for running normal.

somenewnoob
12-09-2015, 08:29 AM
this system needs to be retrofitted to all raids immediately.

this a million times.

Anaximandroz
12-09-2015, 08:29 AM
Please make old raids work this way too.

Lorianus
12-09-2015, 08:55 AM
Hey, folks.

So how will this work?
When you complete one of these Legendary Raids, "Rune" ingredients will drop in the raid's End Chest. (For example, Legendary Hound of Xoriat drops "Xorian Runes").

You always get SOME Runes, unless the chest is Ransacked. The exact number is based on a die roll, so there is some variance.
You get more Runes on Hard, and even more on Elite.
Runes are Bound to Account. You could run the raids on your alts and pass the tokens back to one of your own characters.
Runes cannot be transferred in the Chest.



Great, just like the buddy bonus just great. And like the buddy bonus I would have loved this even more years ago, but better late than never.

Mindos
12-09-2015, 09:38 AM
The most useful number to quote is actually the 95% confidence interval, which is a lot of work to compute but can be quickly estimated with a million run monte carlo simulation (which should take only seconds on a modern computer). Run a million simulation runs, order the number of runs from least to most, and report the result of the 25000th best and 25000th worst. 95% of players will get their item in between those limits.

And all this time I've been using 80% confidence. (Thankfully, the world kept on spinning!)

Grailhawk
12-09-2015, 09:50 AM
20th lists were created as a sure way of obtaining raid loot for people who did not get lucky. Making rune rewards with large variation is contrary to this.
In pnp my DM always gave us a free natural 20 per night, at any time of our choosing. (It was called a "heroism point".)
This was to ensure that we didn't get screwed all night---and that an important moment was up to us.
50 + 1d50 as the die is not what what we should be seeing. 65 + 1d20 is how it should work.
Do not include large variation. We have chests with randomality. It irks me that you guys think that RNG is fun across the board. It has its place. As does a "point of heroism."
Do not make the rune rewards extended RNG. It honestly bothers more than a few people if you're removing the 20th system. That said the new system looks great in all other ways, and I look forward to seeing it in game.

QTF

There is to much randomness in the current numbers this needs to be cut down. I know most people wont have this happen to them but no one wants to be the poor schmo who gets stuck waiting on 50 normal runs for an item.

Wulverine
12-09-2015, 09:57 AM
I know this is not going to be popular but I think 8 or 9 elite runs should not give us a 20th list (or enough runes to turn in for an item). I think if anything that overly emphasizes Elite, too much, but also leaves the best players on the server with less to do far quicker than other players.

30-40 Normal runs neeed to make enough to turn in
20-30 if you do all hard runs
15-20 for all Elite

Would seem likely to be the sweet spot between getting people to run it and not running out of goals too quickly.

Considering that Hard and Elite are liable to have the newer more generous DoJ drop rates, I think people will be pulling 1 item and getting another item in 8 or 9 runs... that's too generous... and we don't want to make the drop rates on the items MoD like so the best thing to do is make the "20th completion" (the equivelent in runes) closer to 20 and much MUCH more than the 10-ish being floated about in here.

10 ish Elite runs to get enough for a turn in is too low by a lot.


I actually agree with you there, Iron. The numbers being thrown around are too high for Elite.

There's is nothing the devs will do to Elite Legendary Shroud, that won't make me grab 11 puggers and still complete.

I'll have hoards of runes within a few weeks, without using any timer bypasses. :)

Vargouille
12-09-2015, 10:04 AM
I suspect this is just a typo, but 1d71+24 gives a range of 25 to 95 (not 75), and 36+24=>60 (not 50). I expect the "1d71" should have been "1d51" to give 1d51+24 for a range of 25 to 75, a die roll average of 26, and therefore an overall average of 26+24=>50. I'm not being pedantic for the sake of it, I just want to point out the error before someone uses it to "prove" that the new system is guaranteed to be rubbish (there's always one - yes, I'm cynical).

Vargouille appears to have fallen victim to the internet trap that whenever you're correcting someone's spelling / grammar / mathematics there's almost certainly going to be an error in your own spelling / grammar / mathematics. :)
I have definitely fallen for the trap!

Yes, that's a typo/braino.

redoubt
12-09-2015, 10:50 AM
Runes cannot be transferred in the Chest.


Why?

Steve_Howe
12-09-2015, 10:58 AM
Why?

Because...reasons.

Epitome
12-09-2015, 11:03 AM
I actually agree with you there, Iron. The numbers being thrown around are too high for Elite.

There's is nothing the devs will do to Elite Legendary Shroud, that won't make me grab 11 puggers and still complete.

I'll have hoards of runes within a few weeks, without using any timer bypasses. :)

Depends, will we see the same lag we see almost 80%+ of the time when running DoJ on EE (and sometimes thunder peaks and Temple of the Deathwyrm raids). If we see the same thing where no one is willing to run these with full parties to risk lag-wipes and wastes of time.

redoubt
12-09-2015, 11:08 AM
What could possibly make you "extraordinarily unhappy" about not being able to pass stuff?

Would not being able to give the odd rune you no longer need to a needy friend REALLY make you "extraordinarily unhappy"? I mean worst case scenario: you stock pile the rune so some future alt might be able to turn it in.

Or would not being able to get at least 2 times more rune per run by multiboxing and passing all the ones from the alt accounts so that you gain ruins at two or three times faster rate be the thing that causes "extraordinarily unhappy"?

Trying to understand what possible motive causes such a flexibile and game changing system to make you so unhappy?

I am in a very small guild (only 6 people). We often run quests and raids that we do not need for ourselves. We run them to help out a guild mate and pass the loot if we get it.

This is the one thing I see in the new system that is not flexible.

Grailhawk
12-09-2015, 11:13 AM
I am in a very small guild (only 6 people). We often run quests and raids that we do not need for ourselves. We run them to help out a guild mate and pass the loot if we get it.

This is the one thing I see in the new system that is not flexible.

The counter to that is, since this is replacement of the 20th list and you never could transfer a completion to anyone else so this hasn't changed anything in that regard.

FranOhmsford
12-09-2015, 11:19 AM
Depends, will we see the same lag we see almost 80%+ of the time when running DoJ on EE (and sometimes thunder peaks and Temple of the Deathwyrm raids). If we see the same thing where no one is willing to run these with full parties to risk lag-wipes and wastes of time.

Prediction time:

Once this update goes live we'll see a massive reduction in Raids run on Normal, a massive increase in Hard runs and roughly the same amount of Elite runs.

Obviously yes this is for now only attached to new Raids that we don't have a baseline for but that's not a problem - Just use the baseline from MoD, DoJ, Deathwyrm and FoT over the past two years.

As for older Epic Raids:
VoN 5/6 = 90% EE already! {5% EN, 5% EH}
ADQ2 = Depends on exactly who's soloing/duoing it - In a group of 6 or more I'd guess 99% will be EE already!
LoB/MA = The number of runs of these are so small that it's hard to tell - Heck I haven't seen an LFM for months!
CitW = 60% EN, 30% EE, 10% EH right now.
FoT = You know I haven't seen a FoT LFM in months either.
DoJ, MoD, Deathwyrm, FoT = 80% EN, 15% EE, 5% EH right now.

Basically just swap round the EN and EH numbers and that's what we'll have.

What this will do is is incentivise EH and let's face it EH needs an incentive!
The worry is though that it may go too far and kill off EN for Raids.


Oh and as for Heroic - Lol - 99% of Heroic Raids done by Heroic characters are now E-BB anyway and if an Epic Character is in there 100% will be Elite! {Oh apart from Shroud - I still see Normal and Hard Shroud LFMs up with 20-28 posted from time to time.}

Steelstar
12-09-2015, 11:21 AM
The counter to that is, since this is replacement of the 20th list and you never could transfer a completion to anyone else so this hasn't changed anything in that regard.

Essentially this, yes.

This system replaces the 20th Rewards list, which you cannot currently transfer to others. If anything, the system is a little more flexible on account of Runes being BtA, so you can give them to your personal Alts, but you will still have to do your own Raid runs. As others pointed out, this also prevents negative behaviors for getting extra Runes (like piking other accounts who then transfer all their runes to one player). While drop numbers mentioned in this thread are likely to be adjusted, the lock on transferring Runes in the chest will not.

Regular named loot will continue to drop in the Raid end chests, and will still be transferrable as usual.

Systern
12-09-2015, 11:22 AM
(ninja'd by steel)

FranOhmsford
12-09-2015, 11:25 AM
I am in a very small guild (only 6 people). We often run quests and raids that we do not need for ourselves. We run them to help out a guild mate and pass the loot if we get it.

This is the one thing I see in the new system that is not flexible.

Is it really a bad thing that a Guild can't outfit a new member in the top Raid Gear in just 2-3 runs?

I don't think players should be looking to join a Guild thinking this time next week I'll have all the top gear!

Augon
12-09-2015, 11:26 AM
Why?

My guess is to avoid multi-boxing to push many runes to your main account.

Systern
12-09-2015, 11:38 AM
Prediction time:

Once this update goes live we'll see a massive reduction in Raids run on Normal, a massive increase in Hard runs and roughly the same amount of Elite runs.

Obviously yes this is for now only attached to new Raids that we don't have a baseline for but that's not a problem - Just use the baseline from MoD, DoJ, Deathwyrm and FoT over the past two years.

As for older Epic Raids:
VoN 5/6 = 90% EE already! {5% EN, 5% EH}
ADQ2 = Depends on exactly who's soloing/duoing it - In a group of 6 or more I'd guess 99% will be EE already!
LoB/MA = The number of runs of these are so small that it's hard to tell - Heck I haven't seen an LFM for months!
CitW = 60% EN, 30% EE, 10% EH right now.
FoT = You know I haven't seen a FoT LFM in months either.
DoJ, MoD, Deathwyrm, FoT = 80% EN, 15% EE, 5% EH right now.

Basically just swap round the EN and EH numbers and that's what we'll have.

What this will do is is incentivise EH and let's face it EH needs an incentive!
The worry is though that it may go too far and kill off EN for Raids.


Oh and as for Heroic - Lol - 99% of Heroic Raids done by Heroic characters are now E-BB anyway and if an Epic Character is in there 100% will be Elite! {Oh apart from Shroud - I still see Normal and Hard Shroud LFMs up with 20-28 posted from time to time.}

Why does that worry you? Maybe you learn the mechanics of the raid on EN, and then play the difficulty you enjoy/are capable of readily handling. Why should EN "live"?


And MA/LoB is a special case because the rewards are tied to difficulty, and the loot tables have been screwed up since U14. Quick Analogy: Shroud has Shards, MA/LoB has binding fragments. Shroud has dragonscales, MA/LoB has Spirits.

Shroud drops plain/smalls in parts 1 and 2, greats/mediums in pt 3, supremes/larges in pts 4 and 5.

MA/LoB drops plains only on heroic normal, which also drops smalls and mediums.
HH, HE, and EN only drop greaters and larges.
EH and EE drop supremes and larges.

So the only way you can get a Tier 1 shard/binding fragment is on heroic normal, which drops them at the rate of 3/200ths of what you need per run. So yea. More trouble than it's generally worth. (I run it twice per week for guildies only on Orien)

slarden
12-09-2015, 11:48 AM
I am very unhappy about the lack of trading in the new system, in particular not being able to pass raid runes even in the chest. I assume there was some exploit possible around that in the past, but it sucks balls - what if I don't want Xorian Runes, and I was only running the raid because a guildie wants them and I was making up the numbers on an alt (maybe my main is on timer)? Now I have to have my backpack cluttered up and can't help out a buddy? What's that about?

You can't pass raid completions either and this system is a replacement for the raid completion system - and something that has one of the highest acceptance rates of any change I've ever seen.

I assume they can be deleted if you don't want those.

You can still pass raid loot. In general raids shouldn't encourage bringing piking dual boxes and the ability to pass runes and loots is a bit much.

Hafeal
12-09-2015, 11:51 AM
From my perspective, I have never ground out 20ths. I think I have had 3 characters who even had enough runs of one raid (Shroud) to get a 20th list. The only bonus there was a cleansing stone. With that in mind, here is my feedback:

1) I will not miss 20th lists for the new raids.

2) The RNG hates me as well as some other in this thread. I support the multiple propositions regarding rune drop rates: I do not think a player should ever get more runes from a Normal run than for Hard, or more from Hard for Elite.

3) I think the new system will encourage some alt play.

4) I like that Mythic will NOT be on the rune trade in lists - if you put them there, it will not give heavy gamers / raiders a reason to continue to raid to get the "max" item after a potentially short set of runs. The drop rates for Mythic though need to be as bad or lower than Normal.

5) I think I can live with the sacrifice of not trading runes in the chest in exchange for BtA - BUT -if they could be traded in chest without breaking the system, it would be really nice for good teamplay / guild runs. Given the runes will not lead to Mythic items, I don't think it would be game breaking as the min/max crowd wants Mythic items.

--- some questions / feedback ---

6) QUESTION: Will you have a chance to pull an item AND get runes, or is it only one or the other?

7) QUESTION: Duping: Are sure, and I mean are you REALLY REALLY sure, runes cannot be duped? This would be crushing if they get duped.

8) QUESTION: Drop rates, are they remaining consistent for items drops (elite highest etc)? Assuming they are, can we also please have each raid item drop the same percentage chance? It seems like some items in every raid, especially older ones just never drop and other items always do. Seriously, it should not be 9 years into a game and I have never seen some items, ever.

9)
Yes, for the three Legendary Raids in U29. At the moment, we don't have immediate plans to retrofit it to other raids. QUESTION: As this seems 'on paper' to be a viable work around for tracking runs through TRs, are you simply waiting to see how this works live before considering it for older raids?

--- Supplemental possible changes? ---

10) As part of these changes could you implement new raids to be exempt from raid timer bypasses until a new raid is released?

11) Can you make raid timer bypasses 1 per character per day?


Thanks for taking the time to get player feedback and being open, once again, to modifying the idea. I think you have the seed and start of something really positive here. I hope the actual game play matches the expectation!

bracelet
12-09-2015, 11:54 AM
This also has benefits, such as carrying across through Reincarnations.


Sold! I don't care about the rest.

Steelstar
12-09-2015, 12:02 PM
6) QUESTION: Will you have a chance to pull an item AND get runes, or is it only one or the other?

You always pull Runes, even when an item also drops.



8) QUESTION: Drop rates, are they remaining consistent for items drops (elite highest etc)? Assuming they are, can we also please have each raid item drop the same percentage chance? It seems like some items in every raid, especially older ones just never drop and other items always do. Seriously, it should not be 9 years into a game and I have never seen some items, ever.

Can't speak to older raids without digging into their tables, but for HoX and Tempest at least, each item has about the same drop chance (~1-2%, because treasure table logic). Your odds of getting an item will be about the same as Defiler's.



9) QUESTION: As this seems 'on paper' to be a viable work around for tracking runs through TRs, are you simply waiting to see how this works live before considering it for older raids?

We don't have any concrete plans to bring this to older Raids (it'd be a pretty big undertaking). It wouldn't be out of the question in the vague future, though.



10) As part of these changes could you implement new raids to be exempt from raid timer bypasses until a new raid is released?

11) Can you make raid timer bypasses 1 per character per day?

No plans right now for either of these, sorry. :)

Hafeal
12-09-2015, 12:04 PM
You can't pass raid completions either and this system is a replacement for the raid completion system - and something that has one of the highest acceptance rates of any change I've ever seen.

I assume they can be deleted if you don't want those.

You can still pass raid loot. In general raids shouldn't encourage bringing piking dual boxes and the ability to pass runes and loots is a bit much.

I lean toward dunklzhan's position. The items on the list are 'normal' and not 'mythic' - you still gotta run to get the best. If someone is dual boxing, it means they are on alts with multiple accounts (i.e, helping support the game). If players can solo raids with a piking dual box, bless their hearts. if anything, that is there I expect the devs to get creative with how they design content.

I would prefer to have the option to help out good group mates or guildies if I end up with runes I do not need or want.

Do I think it is game-breaking either way? no.

Hafeal
12-09-2015, 12:09 PM
You always pull Runes, even when an item also drops.


Can't speak to older raids without digging into their tables, but for HoX and Tempest at least, each item has about the same drop chance (~1-2%, because treasure table logic). Your odds of getting an item will be about the same as Defiler's.


We don't have any concrete plans to bring this to older Raids (it'd be a pretty big undertaking). It wouldn't be out of the question in the vague future, though.


No plans right now for either of these, sorry. :)


Thanks, Steel. I know you know where I was going on the last one. ;):D

dunklezhan
12-09-2015, 12:11 PM
I lean toward dunklzhan's position. The items on the list are 'normal' and not 'mythic' - you still gotta run to get the best. If someone is dual boxing, it means they are on alts. If players can solo raids with a piking dual box, bless their hearts . That is there I expect the devs to get creative with how they design content.

I would prefer to have the option to help out good group mates or guildies if I end up with runes I do not need or want.

Do I think it is game-breaking either way? no.

When looked at as a way to progress toward qualifying for what was a "20th reward" I can now see why you can't pass the runes. Which means yay - I have no problems with this specific system, in fact it looks great. If I happen to get a mythic item drop that I don't want I can still pass that or put it up for roll. Good. I was mistaking the purpose of the raid runes evidently, and viewing them more as a crafting ingredient, which they're really not. They're more like Loyalty points from a superstore.

The points I was making (redoubt more or less describes my exact situation by the way) do however stand for what appears to the complete lockdown of everything in the other new system, namely LGS. But this isn't the thread for that, and i already said what I thought in the official thread for it.

SirValentine
12-09-2015, 12:15 PM
Arithmetic mean is the most useful...


Won't argue about it being "most" useful, not because I agree, but because I don't care enough to argue the point. "Useful" is fairly subjective.



...it is the technical definition of average


There, though, I have to disagree. My whole point is that "average" has no "technical" definition. It's gets used loosely a lot. Technically, lots of different, very distinct, measures of central tendency can all be, quite properly, referred to as "averages". Arithmetic mean is just one of those. It's not the sole stakeholder to the term.

UurlockYgmeov
12-09-2015, 12:25 PM
All I want now is for the system to go live, AND the NPC to accept trade for 75%.

explanation: have a LHoX raid item that I don't want anymore, allow the NPC to buy back for 75% value in Xoriat (LHoX) Runes it would take to buy same item. :)

yes, I can see how this could be abused - but still want it. :)

slarden
12-09-2015, 12:35 PM
I lean toward dunklzhan's position. The items on the list are 'normal' and not 'mythic' - you still gotta run to get the best. If someone is dual boxing, it means they are on alts with multiple accounts (i.e, helping support the game). If players can solo raids with a piking dual box, bless their hearts. if anything, that is there I expect the devs to get creative with how they design content.

I would prefer to have the option to help out good group mates or guildies if I end up with runes I do not need or want.

Do I think it is game-breaking either way? no.

I understand the desire to pass, but you could never pass completions so the new system is no different in that regard.

Hafeal
12-09-2015, 12:54 PM
I understand the desire to pass, but you could never pass completions so the new system is no different in that regard.

The way I perceive it, passing runes does not = passing completions. Runes may = some percentage of completions, but 1 rune batch from 1 run does not = a 20th completion. If one run batch of runes = completions, I would understand the greater concern.

The 20th list was a made up concept as it was. It certainly is not 'lore' based.

From my perspective, especially early in the raid's "life", few people may want to pass in order to get the raid loot themselves. However, in a year, when the raids are "old", less run, and some % of the players have what they want, it would be nice to still be able to give back to other players or alt plays as part of the incentive to keep the content fresh. If friends and guildies can't help players running the raid and they have what they want, I could see the raids falling into the same disuse we see now.

RistoffDervish
12-09-2015, 01:10 PM
All I want now is for the system to go live, AND the NPC to accept trade for 75%.

explanation: have a LHoX raid item that I don't want anymore, allow the NPC to buy back for 75% value in Xoriat (LHoX) Runes it would take to buy same item. :)

yes, I can see how this could be abused - but still want it. :)

I like the idea but it would mean less people would get the loot they want passed to them because people would just loot the items they don't need and turn them in for runes.

SableShadow
12-09-2015, 01:16 PM
passing runes does not = passing completions

Effectively, it would.



If one run batch of runes = completions, I would understand the greater concern.


I'm not following you here; 1 batch of runes = 1 run = 1 completion (assuming you aren't ransacked).

It looks like they wanted to do many things at once:
1) Retain completions across TRs
2) Limit the number of completions you can do per week
3) Still allow you to use raid bypass timers whenever you want to fill out raid groups, even if you personally don't have a chance of pulling either a named item or runes
4) Encourage running with your favorite character (+ bypasses, but within limits); encourage running a larger number of characters
5) ... probably more I haven't thought of

The more I think about this, the more impressed I am at how well it holds together.
It was probably a cleaner bit to develop than making all the necessary tweaks to the quest completions counter; I'm not hung up on the fact that we have 'physical' tokens instead of a counter.

"I like this half as much as I should, but even twice as much as I dislike half the mechanics change for MF." - Bilbo Baggins

silinteresting
12-09-2015, 01:18 PM
hmm this is kinda interesting, im already invisiging there is going to
be a lot of grieving going to happen in the pug scene. ill explain....

i stress depending on how difficult the raids are going to be implemented
i can forsee a lot of failures on the hard version due to the fact that not
many people are going to have alts ready to raid for the designed level.
im already hearing of people running up first lifers so they can be ready
to start passing runes etc to there main. with the gap between drop rates
of each level libel to be quite high and possibley taking 25-30 runs or even
more on normal most im talking to are expecting the norm to be hard runs.
this is gonna be worrying.

i once again stress this is depending on how hard the levels will be and how
much peoples patiance will be tested with faliures that are not lag related.

your friend sil :)

Hafeal
12-09-2015, 02:04 PM
Effectively, it would.



I'm not following you here; 1 batch of runes = 1 run = 1 completion (assuming you aren't ransacked).



I do not perceive it that way. I perceive it more as players passing you a piece of raid loot. Allowing players to help fellow players is a good thing. In this case, the option would simply be to ask for runes - which is unlikely early in the raid's life.

Players still need multiple runs and rewarding a fellow player with your runes is a nice option - you don't give the item, but help progress toward one. And the item is a normal item, not the best version.

Allowing this would be of greater benefit to casual players and lesser used alts. The min/max heavy gamers do not need to pass as they will get their completions. So, in the end, I feel loosening the system is better for the more casual crowd.

slarden
12-09-2015, 02:08 PM
The way I perceive it, passing runes does not = passing completions. Runes may = some percentage of completions, but 1 rune batch from 1 run does not = a 20th completion. If one run batch of runes = completions, I would understand the greater concern.

The 20th list was a made up concept as it was. It certainly is not 'lore' based.

From my perspective, especially early in the raid's "life", few people may want to pass in order to get the raid loot themselves. However, in a year, when the raids are "old", less run, and some % of the players have what they want, it would be nice to still be able to give back to other players or alt plays as part of the incentive to keep the content fresh. If friends and guildies can't help players running the raid and they have what they want, I could see the raids falling into the same disuse we see now.

You can still pass loot as it's always been. People can still earn their own runes toward completion. If someone isn't willing to run unless things are passed to them - do they really deserve the reward? I don't think so. If you want the item you run for it - or you get lucky with drops.

The rune system is a direct replacement for the 20th reward lists. While I understand your points, I think this will result in more runs because it encourages people to play alts. Alot of alts have been neglected for years, but with a refreshed build and some gear can be transformed quickly.

The raids from 2013 forward are all run with some frequency on Sarlona so someone can still find raids if they wish.

I like everything about this design.

Holymunchkin
12-09-2015, 02:18 PM
I lean toward dunklzhan's position. The items on the list are 'normal' and not 'mythic' - you still gotta run to get the best. If someone is dual boxing, it means they are on alts with multiple accounts (i.e, helping support the game). If players can solo raids with a piking dual box, bless their hearts. if anything, that is there I expect the devs to get creative with how they design content.

I would prefer to have the option to help out good group mates or guildies if I end up with runes I do not need or want.

Do I think it is game-breaking either way? no.

+1

I'd like to say though, that 20th reward lists were never shareable.
This comment more so is directed at the drops in chests of ingredients. I believe those can still be passed in the raid??????

Atremus
12-09-2015, 02:29 PM
Items will/should remain passable

Runes (completion list replacement) are not tradable

jakeelala
12-09-2015, 02:52 PM
Essentially this, yes.

This system replaces the 20th Rewards list, which you cannot currently transfer to others. If anything, the system is a little more flexible on account of Runes being BtA, so you can give them to your personal Alts, but you will still have to do your own Raid runs. As others pointed out, this also prevents negative behaviors for getting extra Runes (like piking other accounts who then transfer all their runes to one player). While drop numbers mentioned in this thread are likely to be adjusted, the lock on transferring Runes in the chest will not.

Regular named loot will continue to drop in the Raid end chests, and will still be transferrable as usual.

Wait wait wait

You can't pass your runes to a guildies or put up for roll if you're feeling generous? There's never been a chest item you can't pass in this game before. Am I misreading this?

Grosbeak07
12-09-2015, 02:56 PM
Wait wait wait

You can't pass your runes to a guildies or put up for roll if you're feeling generous? There's never been a chest item you can't pass in this game before. Am I misreading this?

You can't pass renown.

As mentioned earlier this prevents multi boxing.

SableShadow
12-09-2015, 03:03 PM
I do not perceive it that way. I perceive it more as players passing you a piece of raid loot.

So the best answer is to just award them like challenge mats, given that the functionality is the same.

Krelar
12-09-2015, 03:06 PM
So the best answer is to just award them like challenge mats, given that the functionality is the same.

Are challenge mats subject to ransack? I believe that is one of the intended features.

Steelstar
12-09-2015, 03:07 PM
Wait wait wait

You can't pass your runes to a guildies or put up for roll if you're feeling generous?

Correct, just like you can't currently pass your 20th list to your guildies or put it up for roll.

SableShadow
12-09-2015, 03:07 PM
Are challenge mats subject to ransack? I believe that is one of the intended features.

Yeah, I think you're right.
We're back to "it's a convenient and elegant solution to many problems, don't get wrapped around the axel that it shows up in the chest".

Hafeal
12-09-2015, 03:40 PM
The rune system is a direct replacement for the 20th reward lists.


Correct, just like you can't currently pass your 20th list to your guildies or put it up for roll.

And the 20th system was a "made up" system to counter abyssmal drop rates when players stopped raiding. Which was a step down from guaranteed raid loot.

Drop rates aren't improved and 20th lists have proven to be an imperfect panacea.

This new system is better. I think we can make it best by encouraging runes to be movable in chest. Thjs would be a big boost to casual players and altoholics. Regular raiders do not need runes passed. They will get theirs.

The idea is to make the game appealing and more FUN for all players - casuals in particular. Raid loot is fun. If drop rates are not changing, then a chance to have your bootstraps lifted seems reasonable to me. Especially since you would be getting, essentially, a base item. I think it is time to stop being stingy, the game is 9 years old and needs to attract people, not continually encourage grinds.

slarden
12-09-2015, 03:54 PM
I think we can make it best by encouraging runes to be movable in chest. Thjs would be a big boost to casual players and altoholics. Regular raiders do not need runes passed. They will get theirs.


From past experience I think it will also encourage

- dual box pikers
- "I will trade legendary raid bypass timers for your runes"
- "does anyone want to offer anything good for my runes?"
- lfms with "be willing to pass me your runes"

Good and bad comes with it, but I prefer less loot drama so I like just the items being passable.

legendkilleroll
12-09-2015, 03:56 PM
The idea is to make the game appealing and more FUN for all players - casuals in particular. Raid loot is fun. If drop rates are not changing, then a chance to have your bootstraps lifted seems reasonable to me. Especially since you would be getting, essentially, a base item. I think it is time to stop being stingy, the game is 9 years old and needs to attract people, not continually encourage grinds.

Have you played the game in the last few years? its easier than ever to level, easier than ever to pick up good gear, even raid gear with how fast they finish and how many timers there were. Not to mention the class passes, too much power is now thrown at all players

Seems some old time forum posters lump themselves into a player category they are not part of, ask for things they want and use new and casual players as their reason

Hafeal
12-09-2015, 04:10 PM
Have you played the game in the last few years? its easier than ever to level, easier than ever to pick up good gear, even raid gear with how fast they finish and how many timers there were. Not to mention the class passes, too much power is now thrown at all players

Seems some old time forum posters lump themselves into a player category they are not part of, ask for things they want and use new and casual players as their reason


Personal attack aside, your perception of easy is not everyone else's nor is it indicative of another player's time availability to acquire things.

Hafeal
12-09-2015, 04:13 PM
From past experience I think it will also encourage

- dual box pikers
- "I will trade legendary raid bypass timers for your runes"
- "does anyone want to offer anything good for my runes?"
- lfms with "be willing to pass me your runes"

Good and bad comes with it, but I prefer less loot drama so I like just the items being passable.

None of those, and I mean none, are a real concern to me.

Dual box pikers support the game.

lfms with requests or restrictions leave you free to accept or reject from joining - just like ones wanting SoS, Jibbers blade, ToEE mushrooms, or anything else.

legendkilleroll
12-09-2015, 04:16 PM
Personal attack aside, your perception of easy is not everyone else's nor is it indicative of another player's time availability to acquire things.

This is my point, people trying to speak for casuals and new players, let them speak for themselves or not say anything as maybe atm end game raids arnt their biggest priority

Hafeal
12-09-2015, 04:18 PM
This is my point, people trying to speak for casuals and new players, let them speak for themselves or not say anything as maybe atm end game raids arnt their biggest priority

I consider myself a casual player comparatively; I did not use the term new player.

Don't confuse "longevity of playing" and accessing the forum during work hours as equal to a person's actual play time.

UurlockYgmeov
12-09-2015, 04:24 PM
I like the idea but it would mean less people would get the loot they want passed to them because people would just loot the items they don't need and turn them in for runes.

I see your point, but still want it. :) Should be discussed anyways. Even if the 'Recycled' Runes are BtC. :)


Correct, just like you can't currently pass your 20th list to your guildies or put it up for roll.

You know this is an spot on comment. A debate buster, and you should add it to the OP as well.

dunklezhan
12-09-2015, 05:02 PM
You know this is an spot on comment. A debate buster, and you should add it to the OP as well.

I agree phrasing and expectation management are key.

What Turbine are saying is:

20th reward systems are being discontinued, although currently this only applies to the new legendary raids. To ensure that over time you are still guaranteed to get some reward for your investment, just as you were with the 20th reward system, we are introducing a replacement system which tracks your progress slightly differently. Now, instead of a 20th reward offered directly to you by the quest giver as soon as you turn in the raid, we will provide a variable number of tokens in chests inside the raid. Like the old 20th completions rewarded by the NPC, these tokens are not tradeable with other players in any way, but may be traded to alts on the same account via the shared bank. Think of these tokens as personal loyalty points, awarded for your perseverance and as a small token (aha ha) of apology that you haven't got named loot this time. When you have enough of these tokens, you can talk to the NPC who will now open a barter window where you can trade in the tokens you have looted for a named item from the raid.

They are not saying, as per my first impression, that this is some kind of crafting system - even though it is effectively using a 'take ingredients and crunch for reward' interface like crafting would. That intent does make it a totally different thing.

That said: these raid runes should go in existing ingredients or collectible bags (one or the other, not both).

jakeelala
12-09-2015, 06:38 PM
Correct, just like you can't currently pass your 20th list to your guildies or put it up for roll.

20th rewards are not chest items. They are a guaranteed item of great power and rarity. Runes are 1/20th of a 20th reward so logically what you're saying makes no sense. Conflating the two is illogical, though convenient for your argument. Now, if you ran 20 shrouds and on the 20th you got all the runes at once for them, and could pass those, you wouldn't be making an argument that is based fully on logical fallacy.

Runes absolutely need to be passable. There is no universe in which people solo'ing or even duoin'g the raids with alt accounts (for BTA ingredients) could possibly affect the longevity or the non-existent economy (again, BTA) of this raid over time.

Once some people with money and timers quickly get all the runes they want, they will have NO incentive to run the raid, even if it's just to help people, because they can't pass the loot that is the point of running the raid.

This is like Mortal Fear not working or Sev's illogical arguments about Buddy XP bonuses. It's just a complete and total breakdown of foresight about how to manage these systems for maximum player benefit, retention , and goodwill, brought about largely by a paranoia about past mistakes and exploits that no longer exist.

I'd like to point out as well that the Shroud, is STILL run regularly, the only raid of it's age outside of VoN which is. VoN is run because of mondo experience and is Epic. Shroud, without Epic is still run because people STILL NEED MATS. How many years has it been? How many Shroud mats were duped since then (answer: about a billion)? And yet people STILL RUN IT.

Making bad decisions that discourage group and cooperative play (again, like Buddy Bonus) such as this new no passing rune system is totally myopic. There are no mass dupe systems left, and having things be BTA is enough that it wouldn't matter much if there were, because if you get one rune, you can turn it into infinity runes. Being punitive and stingy with no passing solves absolutely NO problem. It's overreach, it's heavy-handed, and it's going to ruin pugging for this raid in 6 months when a lot of people have what they need for 3-4 alts. What would the point of running it even be?

Please, reconsider. This is a horrible idea.

Steve_Howe
12-09-2015, 07:15 PM
Please, reconsider. This is a horrible idea.

Nope, it's a good idea that I like very much.

Please don't change it, Steelstar.

Systern
12-09-2015, 08:10 PM
20th rewards are not chest items. They are a guaranteed item of great power and rarity. Runes are 1/20th of a 20th reward so logically what you're saying makes no sense. Conflating the two is illogical, though convenient for your argument. Now, if you ran 20 shrouds and on the 20th you got all the runes at once for them, and could pass those, you wouldn't be making an argument that is based fully on logical fallacy.

Runes absolutely need to be passable. There is no universe in which people solo'ing or even duoin'g the raids with alt accounts (for BTA ingredients) could possibly affect the longevity or the non-existent economy (again, BTA) of this raid over time.

Once some people with money and timers quickly get all the runes they want, they will have NO incentive to run the raid, even if it's just to help people, because they can't pass the loot that is the point of running the raid.

This is like Mortal Fear not working or Sev's illogical arguments about Buddy XP bonuses. It's just a complete and total breakdown of foresight about how to manage these systems for maximum player benefit, retention , and goodwill, brought about largely by a paranoia about past mistakes and exploits that no longer exist.

I'd like to point out as well that the Shroud, is STILL run regularly, the only raid of it's age outside of VoN which is. VoN is run because of mondo experience and is Epic. Shroud, without Epic is still run because people STILL NEED MATS. How many years has it been? How many Shroud mats were duped since then (answer: about a billion)? And yet people STILL RUN IT.

Making bad decisions that discourage group and cooperative play (again, like Buddy Bonus) such as this new no passing rune system is totally myopic. There are no mass dupe systems left, and having things be BTA is enough that it wouldn't matter much if there were, because if you get one rune, you can turn it into infinity runes. Being punitive and stingy with no passing solves absolutely NO problem. It's overreach, it's heavy-handed, and it's going to ruin pugging for this raid in 6 months when a lot of people have what they need for 3-4 alts. What would the point of running it even be?

Please, reconsider. This is a horrible idea.


Loot still drops in the chests. not random loot, the named stuff. You may find what you're looking for, or get it passed to you, before you accumulate enough tokens to "20th buy" what you were looking for
Renown isn't passable in chests, either. So the concept of "individual merit in a box" isn't new to the game.

On your 20th shroud, when you get offered tomes and essences of cleansing, you most certainly can not pass those. Because it's the end rewards list, and immediately btc.

That special edge case 20th completion list is what's being replaced. Not all named chest loot drops. Just like they added renown, and cannith crafting essences IN ADDITION TO the other chest loot, that's what these runes are in Shroud, Hox, and TS. Additional loot that you can eventually buy the list of items. On your 20th completion, assuming you've gotten enough tokens, you'll get a regular end rewards list to take Coms or Seeds or Renown in, and can then buy that item you were looking for explicitly. It's easier code to maintain, and ends up giving MORE to the player.

1Soulless1
12-09-2015, 09:20 PM
This is a problem with the game, that DoJ helps highlight.

DPS/attack rate at peak levels is too much network overhead for the game to handle reliably without the server and clients desyncing (aka a lag wipe)...

EE is most lag prone because the people doing EE are the highest DPS/attack rate min/maxers on the server, they are also the most likely to have broken tree builds, and ultra fast attacking wolfs, Repeater machiguns, Warlocks spamming AOE's + aura's, Fury Shotters (well maybe not so much any more?), Shuricannons throwing 4 to 5 Shuricans X 2.5 attacks per second (potential 15 attacks inside of 1 second) which will have off hand and TF affixes + twists like Sense weakness and procs like Sunburst/Meteoric Augments going off like mad, broken TWF affix spam... etc. etc.


We usually run DOJ on guild raid night on argo. I've never seen a tree build, no wolves, few warlocks, no monchers or furry shotters, no shuricannons, couple of mechanics but they know to let the melee with the PRR grab agro first before unloading into them so we don't have to run around chasing the mobs. Yet we still get a few lag wipes. I guess its all those people who are still using manyshot?.... or the TWF'ers....or I guess its because people still run around and gather up all the mobs and kite them around the dungon while everyone else finishes the quest?..... yeah that's got to be the reason for lag. ;)


Stereotype much? Mostly melee's with a few locks and mechanics. If DOJ wasn't so punitive against casters I know a few more would pull out their casters....but really why would you bring a caster to DoJ?

As for the 20th lists going the way of the dodo. It seems like a good idea, but I have faith that they will mess it up somehow. It will be found to be "overperforming™" if it benefits the players at all and then be "brought back in line broadly within expectations™" . I am really getting sick of each crew of devs wanting to bring in the "next new big thing™" and abandoning the last set of devs "next new big thing™". Instead of abandoning can we get some refinement of existing systems?

By the way don't give me the BS line about, its a reduced staff, they don't have the resources, it takes time to implement xyz. They have the time to fix stuff, Sev can bring in his warlock abomination, they can not listen to the player base about stuff when they are told about 'the numbers' in the "Official XXX pass" threads. They just choose not to. Then when the players figure out the synergies between stuff its "Overperforming™" and needs to be nerfed. There is a whole plethora of known issues that need to be fixed but as they don't affect the bottom line they will be looked at soon™.

ArekDorun
12-09-2015, 10:11 PM
I just realized there's one thing about this system as it stands that I don't care for: The fact that these raid runes will be dropping in end chests, and not on reward lists. This means that if you somehow get stuck in a raid, or if you die and nobody rezzes you, or any number of other situations arise, you're out the "completion". I doubt this will be a problem in (legendary) Shroud/Hound/TS (only preventing "piking for a completion"), but it could be a rather serious problem if it were implemented in (for example) Reaver's Fate. It can even be a problem in Heroic Shroud (and possibly Legendary Shroud too), given the "Penalty Box" mechanic, tho I don't think the system is needed in Heroic Shroud.

Maybe leave it on end chests for the current Legendary raids, but I'd recommend that if this or something similar is implemented for Heroic and/or Epic raids that it the runes or equivalent get placed on end reward lists. Further, I'd like to propose that this system gets added to the end quest of any chain that uses the S/S/S system, perhaps only on the epic version of it.

--ArekDorun

slarden
12-09-2015, 10:12 PM
20th rewards are not chest items. They are a guaranteed item of great power and rarity. Runes are 1/20th of a 20th reward so logically what you're saying makes no sense. Conflating the two is illogical, though convenient for your argument. Now, if you ran 20 shrouds and on the 20th you got all the runes at once for them, and could pass those, you wouldn't be making an argument that is based fully on logical fallacy.



What he said makes perfect sense. Loot still drops in chests and loot can still be passed. This system replaces 20th rewards and like 20th rewards you can't pass those.



Making bad decisions that discourage group and cooperative play (again, like Buddy Bonus) such as this new no passing rune system is totally myopic. There are no mass dupe systems left, and having things be BTA is enough that it wouldn't matter much if there were, because if you get one rune, you can turn it into infinity runes. Being punitive and stingy with no passing solves absolutely NO problem. It's overreach, it's heavy-handed, and it's going to ruin pugging for this raid in 6 months when a lot of people have what they need for 3-4 alts. What would the point of running it even be?


Everything about this new system seems great to me. I am not seeing why people will stop running the raid because they can't pass runes - they can pass everything else. Since runes are a replacement to the 20th lists - it's exactly how it's always been since that system didn't allow any transfer of benefits.

Qhualor
12-09-2015, 10:35 PM
I just realized there's one thing about this system as it stands that I don't care for: The fact that these raid runes will be dropping in end chests, and not on reward lists. This means that if you somehow get stuck in a raid, or if you die and nobody rezzes you, or any number of other situations arise, you're out the "completion".
--ArekDorun

this is actually a very good point. it happens, people disconnect and someone opens the chest before the player gets reconnected. I can see some getting pretty upset missing out on getting their runes, but its still flagged a s a raid completion.

CSQ
12-09-2015, 11:08 PM
I think that a runes system is better than the current 20th complete system for a couple reasons. For one, it means that you can pool up across characters or TRs; and for another it's restrained by ransack, which means that there's still a reason to replay but not outside the bounds of logic; raiding a couple times a week makes sense, but unless you're an uber hardcore raider you're probably not going to be negatively impacted by the change. If your group wants you to pass on particular loot or you want something for an all, the bound to account is quite convenient because you can pass the tokens across characters, and some people have just awful RNG and may want two or more different items; FFXIV implemented a similar system with some of their new raids and it essentially means that there's a reason to complete, though that's a bit of a different situation because of weekly lockouts. While I know some people might really miss the 20th lists, for most players I'd assume that either raiding isn't that important to them and they won't notice the difference or if anything finally have a chance to get guaranteed raid loot and for hardcore players they still get the chance to get their guaranteed drops. I don't know what the rate will be like (20ish runs to get a single purchase like with the 20th lists or much more quickly) but it at least offers an improvement (and an incentive to run on Elite).

Catteras
12-10-2015, 05:47 AM
This is hands down the most exciting change to the game I've read about in a LONG time! (This is second only to getting rid of the stupid Scroll/seal/shard system.)

Thank you, Turbine! :)

Finally, I can TR when I want and not wait 6 months for 20 completions. (Yes, I'm that slow, thank you.) A wonderful system where eventually you will get what you want, and you are rewarded for playing higher difficulties, too. And bound to account is great! And not being able to pass them in the chest good, too, IMO.

Hopefully this will increase the longevity of raids, too. Now if you'd only get rid of raid bypass timers, we'd be all set.

Bingobong
12-10-2015, 05:51 AM
The exact number will vary by raid and difficulty. In the case of Hound and Tempest's Spine, our current (and very very subject to change) numbers look like this:


Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 50-150 Runes
Elite drops 100-200 Runes



This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)


It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

This looks good except why the RNG?

Instead of random drop rate...

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 50-150 Runes
Elite drops 100-200 Runes


Why not deterministic drop rate ..

Normal drops 50 Runes
Hard drops 100 Runes
Elite drops 150 Runes


So many times in the past, people ask if drop rates are bugged and we get into discussions where Devs say one thing and the players say another. An example would be remnant drop rates where players say its been nerfed with the latest patch while Devs deny it and we waste time from both sides (players verifying drop rates by doing many runs and devs going back to recheck their code and doing their own tests). All this is due to unnecessary use of RNG.

Why not just cut out the randomness and make it deterministic? It makes code simpler and also saves time from both sides with trying to verify things. If there's something wrong (ie. its dropping 50 instead of 100 in hard), then its very easy to see and confirm.

If you think about it, no one has ever asked the 20th completion list reward to be changed into the "10th to 30th completion list reward." If anything, RNG is often the cause of frustration for players on the bad end of the RNG stick. In fact, that was why we had the 20th completion list to begin with. To me, RNG is unnecessary here and just a waste of CPU cycles, as well as doing more harm than good.

Renvar
12-10-2015, 10:47 AM
Wait wait wait

You can't pass your runes to a guildies or put up for roll if you're feeling generous? There's never been a chest item you can't pass in this game before. Am I misreading this?

I don't think you can pass the guild renown you get in chest to other players. I could be wrong, though. I think this has been done before.

Hafeal
12-10-2015, 11:11 AM
Runes absolutely need to be passable. There is no universe in which people solo'ing or even duoin'g the raids with alt accounts (for BTA ingredients) could possibly affect the longevity or the non-existent economy (again, BTA) of this raid over time.

Once some people with money and timers quickly get all the runes they want, they will have NO incentive to run the raid, even if it's just to help people, because they can't pass the loot that is the point of running the raid.

This is like Mortal Fear not working or Sev's illogical arguments about Buddy XP bonuses. It's just a complete and total breakdown of foresight about how to manage these systems for maximum player benefit, retention , and goodwill, brought about largely by a paranoia about past mistakes and exploits that no longer exist.

I'd like to point out as well that the Shroud, is STILL run regularly, the only raid of it's age outside of VoN which is. VoN is run because of mondo experience and is Epic. Shroud, without Epic is still run because people STILL NEED MATS. How many years has it been? How many Shroud mats were duped since then (answer: about a billion)? And yet people STILL RUN IT.

Making bad decisions that discourage group and cooperative play (again, like Buddy Bonus) such as this new no passing rune system is totally myopic. There are no mass dupe systems left, and having things be BTA is enough that it wouldn't matter much if there were, because if you get one rune, you can turn it into infinity runes. Being punitive and stingy with no passing solves absolutely NO problem. It's overreach, it's heavy-handed, and it's going to ruin pugging for this raid in 6 months when a lot of people have what they need for 3-4 alts. What would the point of running it even be?




Really well said.

I think making runes passable in the chest takes a good idea here and makes it great.

Again, the idea right now caters too much to epeen and not enough to MMO cooperative play, imo.

Wulverine
12-10-2015, 11:15 AM
Making the Runes tradeable in the chest, would reduce the longevity of raids.

Got a guildie that missed an update to the game and came back? Run with 12 guildies, pass all the runes to him, *BAM* raid item of choice after 1 or 2 runs. That's just stupid.

Of course runes should *NOT* be tradeable :) We'll still be running the raid after we our got base items, because we're helping other people get raiditems(same as now), and maybe farm Mythic ones for ourselves.

And they should be a part of the endrewards from the questgiver, not in the chest. Besides the problems that were pointed out above, this would end this discussion as well :p

Hafeal
12-10-2015, 11:38 AM
Making the Runes tradeable in the chest, would reduce the longevity of raids.



I completely disagree.

Players with virtually unlimited RBTs will make the raid obsolete as they will do their 8-15 Hard/Elite runs in a day and actually make the raid life even shorter than it is now. Turbine can counter this a couple of ways:

1) Maybe, just maybe, the raid xp will be sooooooo good, players will use it as an xp grind for TRs. Given the history of raid xp, I am not holding my breath on this because I do not believe the devs like this and have demonstrated it time and again. Besides, even with great xp, heavy raiders may not put raids on the hit list for leveling - too much trouble (not enough players / guildies, not wanting to PUG, not wanting to short man, too much time etc).

2) You can make the ELITE, bestamest of the bestamest gear a drop only. They have done this. Runes ONLY give non-Mythic version. The problem is, heavy raiders will quickly not need runes - a) because they will have the 'regular' gear inside a week and b) they have no reason to run the raids once they get their Mythic version.

So, let's go back to the 2 primary motivations for players, Loot and XP. If regular raiders get the Loot, and the xp is meh, the raid will wither and limp along (see DoJ).

The only ones being left behind, as ever, are players who don't grind raids. Once regular raiders have their gear, there is little to no incentive to run the raid UNLESS they can help friends, guildies and good PUGGers. End game raids - to have long life, need to promote some trading.

It is better to give than receive.

Runes should be allowed to be given and Turbine should give that option to players.

SableShadow
12-10-2015, 11:44 AM
Are runes the only l00tz that are going to drop in there? Or am I just missing the fact that small/med/large ingreds + items are going to be dropping over the noise of "you steal teh foodz from our BABEEEZ MOUUUUUUTHZ!!!" :P

This is why we cannot have nice things. :(

Wulverine
12-10-2015, 11:49 AM
I completely disagree.

Players with virtually unlimited RBTs will make the raid obsolete as they will do their 8-15 Hard/Elite runs in a day and actually make the raid life even shorter than it is now. Turbine can counter this a couple of ways:

1) Maybe, just maybe, the raid xp will be sooooooo good, players will use it as an xp grind for TRs. Given the history of raid xp, I am not holding my breath on this because I do not believe the devs like this and have demonstrated it time and again. Besides, even with great xp, heavy raiders may not put raids on the hit list for leveling - too much trouble (not enough players / guildies, not wanting to PUG, not wanting to short man, too much time etc).

2) You can make the ELITE, bestamest of the bestamest gear a drop only. They have done this. Runes ONLY give non-Mythic version. The problem is, heavy raiders will quickly not need runes - 1) because they will have the 'regular' gear inside a week and 2) they have no reason to run the raids once they get their Mythic version.

So, let's go back to the 2 primary motivations for players Loot and XP: If regular raiders get the Loot, and the xp is meh, the raid will wither and limp along (see DoJ).

The only ones being left behind, as ever, are players who don't grind raids. Once regular raiders have their gear, there is little to no incentive to run the raid UNLESS they can help friends, guildies and good PUGGers. End game raids - to have long life, need to promote some trading.

It is better to give than receive.

Runes should be allowed to be given and Turbine should give that option to players.

Players with virtually unlimited New Legendary RBTs ? Lol and how many of those are there per server that are part of the endgame community? A handful?
I seriously doubt that tons of endgamers will be buying the new Legendary bypass timers by the boatload. (old ones are invalid).
Who cares about Legendary Content XP right now? You have to be at cap to run the content and it'll be a while before we can start using that XP for Sentient Weapons ;)

We're still running EE DOJ for Mythic Raidloot. Mythic was a brilliant move for endgame and keeps raids in the running for much longer.
Like I said in another post, I'm sure i'll have boatloads of Runes in a few weeks, more than i can use right now (maybe future alts). So what? I'll still be running the raid for months because of Mythic loot.

You're not an Endgamer, are you?

jakeelala
12-10-2015, 11:51 AM
Really well said.

I think making runes passable in the chest takes a good idea here and makes it great.

Again, the idea right now caters too much to epeen and not enough to MMO cooperative play, imo.

Thanks, I would also argue that runes are the new equivalent of Shards in the shroud, which were the only bound ingredient before, but still PASSABLE in the chest.

SableShadow
12-10-2015, 11:55 AM
Mythic was a brilliant move for endgame and keeps raids in the running for much longer.

Not just raids. "Good enough, but still will pop in now and again looking for the bestamest version" helps everywhere.

legendkilleroll
12-10-2015, 12:50 PM
Players with virtually unlimited New Legendary RBTs ? Lol and how many of those are there per server that are part of the endgame community? A handful?
I seriously doubt that tons of endgamers will be buying the new Legendary bypass timers by the boatload. (old ones are invalid).



Exactly.

No way all the people who farmed DoJ/Mod whatver with unlimited duper timers with be purchasing the new ones

Sure i bet there will be people who buy them and get items very fast but for alot of players they will only run when off timer

Attropos
12-10-2015, 12:53 PM
Thanks, I would also argue that runes are the new equivalent of Shards in the shroud, which were the only bound ingredient before, but still PASSABLE in the chest.

Let me pose a hypothetical question:

20ths are no longer present, but these runes are now available as end rewards (and not in chests at all). Better system than the previous 20th run stuff, or worse?

Paryan
12-10-2015, 01:51 PM
Let me pose a hypothetical question:

20ths are no longer present, but these runes are now available as end rewards (and not in chests at all). Better system than the previous 20th run stuff, or worse?

Something to think about:

If runes were to only be in the end reward list, that means you would have to choose it exclusively over another reward that drops. With the changes to random drops coming as well in this update, and the fact that this is an endgame, high level raid, people may not want to miss out on a potential interesting item, renown, other useful reward, OR runes (having to choose one or the other). By keeping the runes in the end chest, if you complete, you get them and the end reward, whatever that may be.

In old shroud runs, people usually waited to complete if someone DC'd so they had a shot a their rewards/completion as well. Is it worth making everyone miss out on an end reward, other than runes, by moving runes to the end reward, VS. the time people may be inconvenienced by DC'ing and missing out on them in the end chest....?

Hafeal
12-10-2015, 01:53 PM
Let me pose a hypothetical question:

20ths are no longer present, but these runes are now available as end rewards (and not in chests at all). Better system than the previous 20th run stuff, or worse?

I think from a 'perception' aspect, it would curtail "chest resentment" if someone leaves runes in the chest to rot.

For people who do not need the runes, it has the added benefit of allowing them an 'alternate' choice of reward.

All that being said, I still believe the best choice is to make them transferable in chest.

:)

Attropos
12-10-2015, 03:04 PM
I think from a 'perception' aspect, it would curtail "chest resentment" if someone leaves runes in the chest to rot.

For people who do not need the runes, it has the added benefit of allowing them an 'alternate' choice of reward.

All that being said, I still believe the best choice is to make them transferable in chest.

:)

My question was more to try to get people to understand that thinking about them like ingredients is the wrong way of viewing things. I understand why people want to make them transferable in chest, because they see it as a faster way to get loot for themselves and their guildies. Running a raid 20 times is absolutely horrendous.

My worry (and why I am so against making them transferable) is that it hugely rewards dualboxing.... enough so that raids, especially on higher difficulties will be mostly ran short man with their boxes there for extra "completions". This twists the whole idea of the 20 completions idea and will definitely lead to fewer raid LFMs.

The new idea promotes the idea of gearing up alts (as opposed to just maxing out one guy) so they can also complete the raid on the harder difficulties. This should lead to a slower burnout on raids and more incentive to keep people at cap running end game. No longer do you need to complete the raids in such a short period of time because it doesn't matter if that character trs. The rewards for dual boxing remain the same, and may even make people more likely to end up gearing up one of their boxes (if they have some alts, they can just rotate through them, with all of their completions gaining gear for one of the chars).

Making runes transferable promotes the idea of running hard raids with as few people as you can muster (if 6 people can do it on EE, that means 6 boxes can pass you their completions). This in turn leads to extraordinarily fast item accumulation, leading to a faster burnout where the raiding community no longer needs most of the gear. Because runs are going to be run on harder difficulties, there will be more guild/channel filling raids when people do need pieces of gear. Whenever someone does need that piece after the first 2 weeks, they just run it once with friends who pass all their runes to one guy. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. Not to mention the increase in people trying to sell/buy runes. I'm personally fine with people buying/selling raid loot when they get tells, but find it really annoying when people try to auction it off publicly.

I also find it very hard to believe that people will leave the runes in the chest as well since they are BtA now.

I also do prefer the idea of keeping them in chests, if only because it means they can be ransacked if (heaven forbid) someone does end up buying a bunch of RBT (which I doubt).

Hakushi
12-10-2015, 03:17 PM
Something to think about:

If runes were to only be in the end reward list, that means you would have to choose it exclusively over another reward that drops. With the changes to random drops coming as well in this update, and the fact that this is an endgame, high level raid, people may not want to miss out on a potential interesting item, renown, other useful reward, OR runes (having to choose one or the other). By keeping the runes in the end chest, if you complete, you get them and the end reward, whatever that may be.

In old shroud runs, people usually waited to complete if someone DC'd so they had a shot a their rewards/completion as well. Is it worth making everyone miss out on an end reward, other than runes, by moving runes to the end reward, VS. the time people may be inconvenienced by DC'ing and missing out on them in the end chest....?

I agree the runes shouldn't be in the end reward, we shouldn't have to choose between the end reward and a rune, but a way to circumvent this problem could be to make the NPC to give the runes directly when we talk to him. After we finish talking with him and select our end reward, we recieve our runes. If our inventory is full, they go directly to the overflow. That way, people who accidently DC and miss their end chest, still get their runes.

My personnal preference is to keep the runes in the chest, BtA and non transferrable. Something that could be added is to give a delay for the person who DCed. It would be something like, after 15 minutes, the person who DCed can still loot their chest, after that, it's impossible.

Axeyu
12-10-2015, 03:25 PM
I think from a 'perception' aspect, it would curtail "chest resentment" if someone leaves runes in the chest to rot.

Maybe they should add a trigger warning?

Attropos
12-10-2015, 04:12 PM
Maybe they should add a trigger warning?

:D I see what you did there.

I should preface my lfms with:

TW: This raid contains known pikers, griefers, and altar-hitters. Apply at your own peril.

Hafeal
12-10-2015, 04:45 PM
My worry (and why I am so against making them transferable) is that it hugely rewards dualboxing.... enough so that raids, especially on higher difficulties will be mostly ran short man with their boxes there for extra "completions". This twists the whole idea of the 20 completions idea and will definitely lead to fewer raid LFMs.

...

Making runes transferable promotes the idea of running hard raids with as few people as you can muster (if 6 people can do it on EE, that means 6 boxes can pass you their completions). This in turn leads to extraordinarily fast item accumulation, leading to a faster burnout

I respect the concern. My perception is that the "dual-boxing" segment of the population is relatively small. Further, based on what has been described, runes won't be worth hoarding for these types of players because they will NOT lead to mythic versions. Players who invest enough to dual box, imo, are more likely to be seeking the mythic ones.

My guess is the devs hope the elite players and regular raiders will grind the new raids for mythic versions - which are likely to have infinitesimal drop rates. With low, low chances, these players "have" to keep running and perhaps? they will run regular raid runs and pick up less hardcore / casual players for their runs. And they might. Or they might not. Nothing indicates to me that is done now. Yes, you can point to other factors - but those apply to the new legendary raids as well -are they fun content? Are they too long? Too tough? Or too laggy? Or maybe the actual loot is not worth the effort or for too few builds.

Bottom line, hoping ocd players grind for mythic for the + or for the epeen is a poor choice v helping out fellow MMO players, especially those who may not have the time or ability to do the same, imo.

This game, for too long, has travelled the road from the "no grind" mmo to the "all grind" mmo. This change does not "extend" the 'rune' grind for dual boxers, elite player or regular raiders - it shortens it (as few as ~8 runs). This change supremely hurts casual players and makes them ever more reliant on lottery drops for loot - because they will not grind 25 runs for loot.

I started a thread once asking what was the most number of raid loot items to drop? In 9 years of DDO raids, I have never seen, heard or sniffed 12 items dropping. I have been in, heard, seen and held my nose at being skunked for 0 pulls. DDO's idea of averages / medians / whatever you want to call it and grind have disappointed me for years. If this implementation remains, it is just another misguided attempt to 'extend' end game that misses the mark imo, and prevents a good idea from being great.





I also do prefer the idea of keeping them in chests, if only because it means they can be ransacked if (heaven forbid) someone does end up buying a bunch of RBT (which I doubt).

I agree - if things remain as proposed.

Ganak
12-10-2015, 07:14 PM
Upon further thought...


Really love the raid rune system.


Why?



Some experiences over the past 11 years playing DDO...



A very high % of time during DDO's 10.5 years of live play, end game content required forethought and tight execution in order to guarantee a completion.

During so many of such times, parties would plan by role how to form the party. Example (need 1 healer; 1 bard, 2 caster, rest melee). Been ages since I've seen such a post.



Now every two bit melee and monk can run end game, with an expectation of self healing.



Been so long since I've seen a EN or EH raid mandating a healer.



This rune system gives us incentive to roll a great hjealer, and RUN them in raids since we all really want to upgrade melee and healers (exempt is our beautiful folks who ARE healers, playing healers), and can pass runes, and feel free to bring different alts even if only 2alts is in need of ingredients/loot/etc, therefore we are more likely to exhibit alt flexibility in terms of party formation, which is another end user experience we've dealt with so often over 10+ years. Thx!

Ganak
12-10-2015, 07:23 PM
Sorry some bad math in my last post; been happening more often :)

Played during beta in late 2005.

slarden
12-10-2015, 09:43 PM
Thanks, I would also argue that runes are the new equivalent of Shards in the shroud, which were the only bound ingredient before, but still PASSABLE in the chest.

Except they are not - the shroud had a 20th list so that is the closest comparison point. The runes are simply an itemized version of the 20th list and nothing more.

slarden
12-10-2015, 09:46 PM
I think from a 'perception' aspect, it would curtail "chest resentment" if someone leaves runes in the chest to rot.

For people who do not need the runes, it has the added benefit of allowing them an 'alternate' choice of reward.

All that being said, I still believe the best choice is to make them transferable in chest.

:)

The devs heard your reasons many times. It's up to them at this point.

IronClan
12-10-2015, 09:58 PM
Running a raid 20 times is absolutely horrendous.

First of all I agree with most of your post but why this part? Maybe if someone doesn't enjoy DDO.... Running a total of 20 over time is not only not horrendous but is absolutely required for Turbine to get enough replay out of the static content they create. Heroic Shroud for example has probably been run hundreds of times by most players who stick around for more than a year.

Running 20 EN's in a night is horrendous, maybe that's what you meant, hell running 5 a NIGHT for a week is horrendous, but this system totally defrays that... If you run like that you'll be making no progress after 8 runs on night one or 5 runs on night one plus 3 more on night two. In other words no one's going to keep doing these burnout trains to quit-the-game-town.

Seems like we feel (as most do in this thread) that this system will benefit the game in a way that few systematic changes have over the years, just that 20 raids comment got my attention.

IronClan
12-10-2015, 10:11 PM
I think from a 'perception' aspect, it would curtail "chest resentment" if someone leaves runes in the chest to rot.

For people who do not need the runes, it has the added benefit of allowing them an 'alternate' choice of reward.

All that being said, I still believe the best choice is to make them transferable in chest.

:)

No offense Haf but I think "leaving them in chest" is a Forum DDO thing, that will happen less than 0.01% of the time. The fact that any alt can use them will make almost everyone squirrel away extras for a rainy day. or just in case they make an alt in the future. Of course they could also have a few minor consumable items that cost runes to soak up some of these extra's

Changing the current implementation in any way IMO should be done with extreme diligence. I don't want to see this system go south because of a few well meaning suggestions. Make them transferable if you want to allow multi boxers to get double or triple or even quadruple the progress as anyone else and incentivize a LOT of people who don't currently multi box to start doing so.

The gains of making these passable are far outweighed by the prospect of multiboxing abuse. And no I don't think multi boxing is currently much of a big deal... until they change the runes to be equivalent of passing entire 20th lists to your main by doing 3 EE runs... Then it will be a bigger deal. And if you think there might be "runes left in chest resentment" wait til you see the Forum threads titled "look at this a***ole and his 5 box spots saved raid LFM's" or "I joined this raid with 12 people and the leader said we're short manning WTeF!?"

IronClan
12-10-2015, 10:54 PM
I think we can make it best by encouraging runes to be movable in chest. Thjs would be a big boost to casual players and altoholics.

Altaholics can pass runes via shared bank, as they are BTA. Casuals will just need to do between 10-ish and 20-ish runs a number which is ALREADY less grindy (and that I don't agree with and think is too few).


the game is 9 years old and needs to attract people, not continually encourage grinds.

No one leaves a game they enjoy playing because they have stuff they still need to do.

On the contrary, the game has been losing INVESTED PLAYERS, veterans and long time returners for nearing 4 years now because of the lack of things to do and reasons to keep playing, BECAUSE Upper management like Purplefooz decided to concentrate on casuals dumbed down loot and super high drop rates, and BTA items, and easy peasy acquisition of gear.

This game is bleeding players non stop for over 3 years because the focus has been too long on easy attainment and causal friendly systems like no end game but all development focused on the "repeat the journey and enjoy permanent character power" hamsterwheel.


Runes absolutely need to be passable.

This is like Mortal Fear not working or Sev's illogical arguments about Buddy XP bonuses. It's just a complete and total breakdown of foresight about how to manage these systems for maximum player benefit, retention , and goodwill, brought about largely by a paranoia about past mistakes and exploits that no longer exist.

6 months when a lot of people have what they need for 3-4 alts. What would the point of running it even be?

Please, reconsider. This is a horrible idea.

Well the tenor of your post is suitably high pitched and hyperbolic, not particularly logically connected, Mortal fear? Buddy XP? Totally unrelated. It seems like you're shouting because a few newer things that are entirely unrelated to this that you also didn't like the answer about are joining this thing which you don't like the answer about. Hey been there done that not going to pretend I've liked every change they've made recently.

Can the new Shroud Ingredients be passed in chest?

Cause if they can then your argument just died on the vine, if they can't (I honestly haven't looked) then we need to make ingredients passable and your argument is addressed by the passing of ingredients.

Yes people absolutely run content where they don't need anything "to help a buddy" but IMO this number is just as much of a minority as multi boxers... The difference is these generous players can pass stuff like Ingredients, and let their buddy run the raid the correct number of times for the 20th list. The buddy can also (of course) run the raid to PULL THE NAMED ITEM AND THEN PASS IT. So there's two ways a buddy can run the raod where he's helping despite not needing anything himself.

Honestly I know that some of you have above board ideals for why you want runes to be passable, Hafeal in particular I have much respect for, but if ingredients are passable AND the named items that Runes purchase are passable (as they always are) then I don't see any argument left that doesn't amount to:

I want to multi box

or the less selfish but still misguided:

I want my friend to only need to run the raid 5 times (which by itself is a questionable goal)

In the end the fact that you will be able to pass stuff to your buddy; just not raid runes, kinda washes out the best and really ONLY non-suspect argument for passable runes.

SealedInSong
12-11-2015, 12:39 AM
Yes, for the three Legendary Raids in U29. At the moment, we don't have immediate plans to retrofit it to other raids.

I would die of joy. It would breathe a lot of life back into the game.

Silverleafeon
12-11-2015, 02:07 AM
It is interesting with all the flap about "pay to win" and then people complain about "bta", are those not diametrically opposite points of view?


;;;;



As someone who leads raid groups I don't particulary want any increase in the amount of requests towards me for dual boxing, nor do I want to have to deal with sneaky dual boxing. Its enough stress trying to balance out a raiding train w/o worrying about dual/tri/quad boxing which almost always yields raid piking, which leads to concern over party's dps output, etc...



;;;


Or simply put, I like bta runes and I like no pass runes in chest, but whatever.

Iriale
12-11-2015, 05:17 AM
Runes should not be transferred into the chest. You can transfer the loot if you want to help a friend.

The proposed system is perfect (without going into details about the number of runes) When designers do well, they should be praised for it. And yes, they have done well. Thank you, devs. A very good addition to the game.

Dharken
12-11-2015, 07:47 AM
Personally i think this is a great idea, but I would like to see some slight changes.

1) How runes are given out, instead of ranges like 25-75 norm, 50-150 hard, 100-200elite, do something like 25-75 norm, 80-120hard, 125-200 elite. (the numbers don't matter, just make it so there is no or very little overlap, because that is why many lean towards hard on many quests, since hard can be accomplished by a less skilled group, quicker (in both completion time and time to form the group) and if you are doing hard with a min 50 on runes, then 2 hard runs guarentee the minimum of 1 elite run and 2 hard runs can usually be done in 2/3 the time as 1 elite so why do elite? For the chance at more than the minimum? IF you want to see full groups being formed and planning instead of makeshift groups bullrushing things, than there has to be some guarenteed advantage to doing elite.


2) On elite add the option of possibly getting 1 mythic rune ( BTC and not chest tradable so if a character gets one, only that character gets one and it can't be traded to alts or other party members)(or even add into the previous barter table the ability to trade in regular runes for mythic, 1:10 ratio maybe) and then add a mythic barter table with a crazy amount of mythic runes being needed to get 1 mythic item. It seems small but as someone, and i know not the only one, who has run the graveyard quests way too many times and never seen a mythic item drop for anyone in the group, they are living up to their "mythic" name a little too well.

Gljosh
12-11-2015, 08:33 AM
Great news, PLEASE retrofit this to the other raids!

Also, I saw that some one added to have the Runes work for Shards/Seals/Scrolls that would be great as well.

Attropos
12-11-2015, 09:41 AM
First of all I agree with most of your post but why this part? Maybe if someone doesn't enjoy DDO.... Running a total of 20 over time is not only not horrendous but is absolutely required for Turbine to get enough replay out of the static content they create. Heroic Shroud for example has probably been run hundreds of times by most players who stick around for more than a year.

Running 20 EN's in a night is horrendous, maybe that's what you meant, hell running 5 a NIGHT for a week is horrendous, but this system totally defrays that... If you run like that you'll be making no progress after 8 runs on night one or 5 runs on night one plus 3 more on night two. In other words no one's going to keep doing these burnout trains to quit-the-game-town.

Seems like we feel (as most do in this thread) that this system will benefit the game in a way that few systematic changes have over the years, just that 20 raids comment got my attention.

I should probably edit my post, I do mean running 3 EN raids back to back on the same character on the same night. It gets very old very quickly... and with the drop rates in MoD, it is pretty much the only way to ever see raid gear. Being skunked used to be rare, now it's the default, even on hard/elite completions. First couple of times you do it back to back, the raid is new and fun. But it quickly turns into a wow, just another completion.

Tom.JonesJr
12-11-2015, 02:12 PM
I am all for the Rune system as I play on a causal basis and seldom wish to hold a toon at cap long enough to get my 20 completion list. What I dislike is the straight RND approach for the distribution. As it currently stands you will have a 1/51 shot at any level of reward


(To address those wondering where 0.5s go that are normally on die rolls, like 3.5 is average on d6: It also can be exactly 50 earned per normal run on average, if we make it so. For instance, 1d51+24: 1d51 averages to 26 exactly (no fractional remainder). 26+24=>50, of course.)



I would prefer a more normalized approach to the distribution. This could be done by using multiple dice ie(4d12 + 24 as the average dice roll for 4d12 is 26). This would then produce a range as follows:

EN: 28-72
EH: 53-97
EE: 78-122

This does 2 things in my very. The min you would get in the harder difficulty would allows be more then you could have gotten in the lower difficulty. To get the highest or the lowest would be come rare but not impossible. Based on my math with may be wrong I come up with a total possible combinations of 20736 with four 12 sided dice give less then a 1% chance that you would ever get 28 and a 56% chance that you would get between 45-55 runes each run.

Hafeal
12-11-2015, 02:57 PM
No offense Haf but I think "leaving them in chest" is a Forum DDO thing, that will happen less than 0.01% of the time. The fact that any alt can use them will make almost everyone squirrel away extras for a rainy day. or just in case they make an alt in the future.

I get it. The problem, as I see it, is that it appears to me many players focus on 1 or 2 characters as the game is set up right now. I know players in my guild and friends list who will have little use for runes after a short time. Without offending slarden, I would like to see the runes have added value.


The gains of making these passable are far outweighed by the prospect of multiboxing abuse. And no I don't think multi boxing is currently much of a big deal... until they change the runes to be equivalent of passing entire 20th lists to your main by doing 3 EE runs... Then it will be a bigger deal.

I just don't see it. Especially as the runes do not give mythic versions. I think if people want to play the game with multiple accounts, there is a benefit to having them in game and playing. No, I do not dual box.



Altaholics can pass runes via shared bank, as they are BTA. Casuals will just need to do between 10-ish and 20-ish runs a number which is ALREADY less grindy (and that I don't agree with and think is too few).

Until the numbers change that is not true, using Steelstar's current iteration:


The exact numbers ... look like this:


Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 50-150 Runes
Elite drops 100-200 Runes



This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)


It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

I assume casual players are more likely to run raids on Normal. They are the 1 player group whose grind is increasing under this system. I think the devs are hoping the raiders will open up the lfm gates so that casuals can jump in runs to shorten the trip. If they make the raids too easy though - so casuals can do it on Hard or heaven forbid, Elite, they will hear the rants here as well. Tough position they are in.

-- -- --


On the contrary, the game has been losing INVESTED PLAYERS, veterans and long time returners for nearing 4 years now because of the lack of things to do and reasons to keep playing, BECAUSE Upper management like Purplefooz decided to concentrate on casuals dumbed down loot and super high drop rates, and BTA items, and easy peasy acquisition of gear.

This game is bleeding players non stop for over 3 years because the focus has been too long on easy attainment and causal friendly systems like no end game but all development focused on the "repeat the journey and enjoy permanent character power" hamsterwheel.

I think this a good topic for discussion - just not here! :D

Wulverine
12-11-2015, 03:13 PM
What it boils down to, I think, is that allowing runes to be trade-able would make raid loot too easily acquirable. Pretty sure that's what the devs think as well.
Most things in DDO are already too easily acquired. XP, items, pastlives, etc, etc.

8 runs on elite to get a named 20th list is way too fast imo as well.

Axeyu
12-11-2015, 03:53 PM
8 runs on elite to get a named 20th list is way too fast imo as well.

Yup. But this is regretably exactly what a lot of people have been asking for, to incentivice elite by having it give more loot instead of better loot.
It maybe sounds good, but doesn't make much sense to require the most grind-averse players (the "casual players" who play normal) to do significantly more grinding than the less grind-averse players.
We will see how it turns out. If the minor mythic bonuses are enough (those are not going to help the shroud, as far as I can tell).

Hafeal
12-11-2015, 04:10 PM
Yup. But this is regretably exactly what a lot of people have been asking for, to incentivice elite by having it give more loot instead of better loot.

It maybe sounds good, but doesn't make much sense to require the most grind-adverse players (the "casual players" who play normal) to do significantly more grinding than the less grind-adverse players.

We will see how it turns out. If the minor mythic bonuses are enough (those are not going to help the shroud, as far as I can tell).

Succinct, well said. +1.

Hafeal
12-11-2015, 04:15 PM
8 runs on elite to get a named 20th list is way too fast imo as well.

Yup - the current set-up targets the wrong players. Perhaps Dharken's idea is better to grind end gamers:


Personally i think this is a great idea, but I would like to see some slight changes.

... On elite add the option of possibly getting 1 mythic rune ( BTC and not chest tradable so if a character gets one, only that character gets one and it can't be traded to alts or other party members) and

and then add a mythic barter table with a crazy amount of mythic runes being needed to get 1 mythic item. It seems small but as someone, and i know not the only one, who has run the graveyard quests way too many times and never seen a mythic item drop for anyone in the group, they are living up to their "mythic" name a little too well.

ArekDorun
12-11-2015, 07:09 PM
I also do prefer the idea of keeping them in chests, if only because it means they can be ransacked if (heaven forbid) someone does end up buying a bunch of RBT (which I doubt).

Hmm....I thought quest reward lists could also be "ransacked". If that's not the case, then leaving them as chest drops (non-transferable) is a decent idea. I'd just hate to see someone get a raid lockout and no runes because of a disconnect or other circumstances (getting stuck in a penalty room, for example).

--ArekDorun

Dragavon
12-12-2015, 02:55 AM
Hey, folks.

As we've mentioned in a few places, the U29 Legendary Raids will not feature 20th Reward Lists. Instead, you will receive Runes unique to each Raid which may be traded for the Raid's named items.

I would just like to chime in here and give you guys my opinion on the raid runes system.

Whoever came up with that idea should get free chocolate chip cookies for a week. The more I think about raid runes the more I like them. This is a brilliant idea, and should be implemented for all old raids as soon as possible.

People will feel that they are making progress towards their goal every time they complete a raid that gives raid runes.

I really hope devs can find the time to do this for all old raids in DDO.

JohnWarlock
12-14-2015, 08:54 AM
The exact number will vary by raid and difficulty. In the case of Hound and Tempest's Spine, our current (and very very subject to change) numbers look like this:


Named items cost 1250 Runes

Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 50-150 Runes
Elite drops 100-200 Runes



This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)


It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

Have you considered doing:
Normal drops 25-75 Runes
Hard drops 75-125 Runes
Elite drops 150-200 Runes

Thus ensuring that you won't get less drops on Hard than you do on Normal, and that Elite is worth doing just for the sheer amount of Runes you can obtain.

JOTMON
12-16-2015, 09:59 AM
Hey, folks.

As we've mentioned in a few places, the U29 Legendary Raids will not feature 20th Reward Lists. Instead, you will receive Runes unique to each Raid which may be traded for the Raid's named items.

Why the new system?
This is best stated in a quote from Vargouille:


This also has benefits, such as carrying across through Reincarnations.

So how will this work?
When you complete one of these Legendary Raids, "Rune" ingredients will drop in the raid's End Chest. (For example, Legendary Hound of Xoriat drops "Xorian Runes").

You always get SOME Runes, unless the chest is Ransacked. The exact number is based on a die roll, so there is some variance.
You get more Runes on Hard, and even more on Elite.
Runes are Bound to Account. You could run the raids on your alts and pass the tokens back to one of your own characters.
Runes cannot be transferred in the Chest.


The questgiver NPC for the raid you've been running will have a dialogue option that opens a barter window where you can trade in your Runes. The exact drop numbers, trade-in lists, and costs of items will vary from raid to raid. In the case of Hound of Xoriat and Tempest's Spine, the barter window contains all of the named loot* that can drop in those raids, plus an option to trade runes for Tier 1 and 2 Greensteel Ingredients.

Beyond this system, named loot will still drop as usual in the new Legendary Raids. That should cover the basics, feel free to ask questions here and I'll answer when I can. :)

EDIT: Worth noting, much like the 20th list from DoJ, the barter shop only provides non-Mythic versions of the loot. Mythic versions are still available in the end chests.


Will there be an opportunity for you to roll this system back through all pre-existing systems.

IronClan
12-16-2015, 10:58 AM
I get it. The problem, as I see it, is that it appears to me many players focus on 1 or 2 characters as the game is set up right now. I know players in my guild and friends list who will have little use for runes after a short time. Without offending slarden, I would like to see the runes have added value.

The way to solve this is to make the Rune reward list have other things that are desirable to "sell" (turn in or however you want to think of it).

1250 Named Item A
1250 Named Item B
150 1 Lasting Elixer of Runic Power +20 Rune bonus 20 minute buff lasts through death but not logout.
1250 Named Item C
150 1 Elixer of Runic Harm/Heal/Reconstruct

Could be other things of course and priced however makes sense. I am expecting the Dev's to have stuff like this in place, because they did the same thing with Champ Remnants. And they've talked about the subject many times. Any time you see a designer or Dev talk about having "economy" they don't necessarilly mean AH type economy, they also mean things like having a range of things to purchase that helps use up the stacks, consumables obviously are a primary means to that end.

You can also see this in the New Mabar turn in list, those chocolates that expire, and the old "gloomy potions of restoration" that a PM can use even while in form. Those are what the Dev's are refering to when they say they want to give new systems economy.

If raid runes ONLY purchase named items then yes people with 1 or 2 toons will very quickly have little need for the runes.


I just don't see it. Especially as the runes do not give mythic versions. I think if people want to play the game with multiple accounts, there is a benefit to having them in game and playing. No, I do not dual box.

Right now I have serious doubts (and have since I posted about it right after DOJ came out) that people are running things for mythic versions. It might be that the bonus is too small, or that too many people have been deluded by "relative math" into believing that 4 melee power on a ring isn't worth getting because it's not as much as the 4 MP they get from elsewhere (the diminishing returns myth is strong in Forum DDO)



Until the numbers change that is not true, using Steelstar's current iteration:

But it is, a Causal can get lucky and do 17, 18 or 19 EN's they can also get less lucky and do a few Hards and suddenly their chances of needing 25 (or 24 or 20) become lower and lower... Do ONE Elite (for the favor say) and a few Hards and suddenly the casual has a PROBABILITY of doing significantly less than 20.


I assume casual players are more likely to run raids on Normal. They are the 1 player group whose grind is increasing under this system. I think the devs are hoping the raiders will open up the lfm gates so that casuals can jump in runs to shorten the trip. If they make the raids too easy though - so casuals can do it on Hard or heaven forbid, Elite, they will hear the rants here as well. Tough position they are in.

I agree with this, but it's the nature of the beast, because the power gamers ALSO do Normal's when it's the best meta to obtain the items fastest.

I agree the 8 EE's to get a 20th list is really too good and like a lot of things the Dev's are doing lately shows a complete lack of subtlety.

25-35
20-25
15-20

Would be fine




I think this a good topic for discussion - just not here! :D

I disagree those aspects are at the heart of the discussion here.

raeslys
12-19-2015, 05:27 PM
This new system is a good surprise in U29, a great idea, maybe a little difficult could be good, only a question, what about you you have plan to upgrade the no-legendary (olds) raids? This should be the trend.


P.D.: I didnt read all threads, so some1 already asked it, Im sorry.