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Severlin
10-27-2015, 05:55 PM
~ Just a reminder that epic levels are increasing to level 30 with Update 29, so if you are working on an Epic character for the purpose of a true reincarnation you might want to level before update 29 as it will be take more XP when you can go to level 30.

~ Yes, we have read the question about what happens when a level 28 character starts a reincarnation and then the level is increased. We are discussing that internally.

Sev~

Thrudh
10-27-2015, 05:59 PM
When is Update 29 coming out? Roughly, I mean.

PermaBanned
10-27-2015, 05:59 PM
That's your second ominous statement today. Kinda concerning when even a Dev says (in essence) "hurry up and get done before the cap increase!"

Basura_Grande
10-27-2015, 05:59 PM
When is Update 29 coming out? Roughly, I mean.

Soon :)

Steve_Howe
10-27-2015, 06:01 PM
When is Update 29 coming out? Roughly, I mean.

Before the end of the year...roughly.

maddong
10-27-2015, 09:14 PM
Why don't we just let people still epic TR at level 28?

gwonbush
10-27-2015, 09:25 PM
There was talk of lowering the epic xp curve when the cap was increased to 30 (while still requiring more xp, not as much more as it would have been). Is this still a thing?

Qhualor
10-27-2015, 09:25 PM
~ Just a reminder that epic levels are increasing to level 30 with Update 29, so if you are working on an Epic character for the purpose of a true reincarnation you might want to level before update 29 as it will be take more XP when you can go to level 30.

~ Yes, we have read the question about what happens when a level 28 character starts a reincarnation and then the level is increased. We are discussing that internally.

Sev~

can we get some advanced notice what the xp curve will look like in epics as soon as possible?

EllisDee37
10-27-2015, 09:43 PM
Mabar runs through Sunday, November 8th.

Any chance we could get an Epic XP Bonus Weekend for November 13th-15th?

Enderoc
10-27-2015, 09:47 PM
Should have made a third tier of reincarnation which would have eventually taken you to level 35 but players could begin working on them now.

Uska
10-27-2015, 09:51 PM
Why don't we just let people still epic TR at level 28?

because its suppose to be cap if you want 28 then you dont want 30

Uska
10-27-2015, 09:52 PM
Should have made a third tier of reincarnation which would have eventually taken you to level 35 but players could begin working on them now.

30 is supose to be it

Sgt_Hart
10-27-2015, 09:56 PM
~ Just a reminder that epic levels are increasing to level 30 with Update 29, so if you are working on an Epic character for the purpose of a true reincarnation you might want to level before update 29 as it will be take more XP when you can go to level 30.

~ Yes, we have read the question about what happens when a level 28 character starts a reincarnation and then the level is increased. We are discussing that internally.

Sev~

If this is your plan to be reassuring, you need a bigger drawing board.

Also, if the plan is another "Here's stuff we're considering internally for future updates(You're getting it in two weeks.)" It might not have the desired effect.

Seikojin
10-28-2015, 12:05 AM
~ Just a reminder that epic levels are increasing to level 30 with Update 29, so if you are working on an Epic character for the purpose of a true reincarnation you might want to level before update 29 as it will be take more XP when you can go to level 30.

~ Yes, we have read the question about what happens when a level 28 character starts a reincarnation and then the level is increased. We are discussing that internally.

Sev~

Thanks for the reminder, and I am glad you are looking into that case.

So it looks like 29 and 30 will just cost more. Does this mean additional exp earned at cap now will put us towards 29 and 30? I am guessing not since it says max epic exp achieved. So in my mind, when the new max is added to the game, then existing lvl 28's will need 1 exp to hit 29.


When is Update 29 coming out? Roughly, I mean.

Probably the week before Christmas.

GeoffWatson
10-28-2015, 02:39 AM
~ Just a reminder that epic levels are increasing to level 30 with Update 29, so if you are working on an Epic character for the purpose of a true reincarnation you might want to level before update 29 as it will be take more XP when you can go to level 30.

Sev~

How much more?
Levels 26-28 are already a grind on an ER, though IRs aren't as bad with the first time bonuses.
If the original plan of 3 million extra XP needed is still happening, that will be enough for me to quit DDO.

Powerhungry
10-28-2015, 03:04 AM
If the original plan of 3 million extra XP needed is still happening, that will be enough for me to quit DDO.

A character at cap 28 would need 1.5M to 29 and 1.65M to 30 (3.15M additional exp). Is there any reason to expect this progression to change?

Aletys
10-28-2015, 03:10 AM
How much more?
Levels 26-28 are already a grind on an ER, though IRs aren't as bad with the first time bonuses.
If the original plan of 3 million extra XP needed is still happening, that will be enough for me to quit DDO.

/signed.
This.


A character at cap 28 would need 1.5M to 29 and 1.65M to 30 (3.15M additional exp). Is there any reason to expect this progression to change?

Sanity?

I don't know that I'll quit, but I'll certainly consider if it's worth the pain to continue with this. I may just decide to do what alot of my guildies are already doing: They show up once a week for the guild runs, and that's about the only time they play.

A whole bunch of players have gotten many ER's done on their toons, and they only needed 6 million xp to do it. It seems rather unfair to now require more xp to achieve the same goal. The fact that it's been known for some time that the cap would go up does not change this. 6 million has been the status quo for a very long time now.

If it goes up significantly, it will be a miserable grind. Instead of increasing the XP required, you should seriously consider leaving it at 6 million. That way we'd have the option of playing different content with each ER, and that would keep it fresh. I'd be far more interested in continuing to play & ER if I didn't have to grind the same stuff forever, over & over.

EllisDee37
10-28-2015, 03:51 AM
If it goes up significantly, it will be a miserable grind. Instead of increasing the XP required, you should seriously consider leaving it at 6 million. That way we'd have the option of playing different content with each ER, and that would keep it fresh. I'd be far more interested in continuing to play & ER if I didn't have to grind the same stuff forever, over & over.I think rebalancing the curve so that it takes 7.5 million xp to get to 30 would be a reasonable compromise. (Right now it's 6.6 million to get to 28.)

Raising it significantly -- which IMO is anything above 8 million to get to 30 -- does nothing except punish newer players. That seems counterproductive to me.

FranOhmsford
10-28-2015, 03:59 AM
/signed.
This.



Sanity?

I don't know that I'll quit, but I'll certainly consider if it's worth the pain to continue with this. I may just decide to do what alot of my guildies are already doing: They show up once a week for the guild runs, and that's about the only time they play.

A whole bunch of players have gotten many ER's done on their toons, and they only needed 6 million xp to do it. It seems rather unfair to now require more xp to achieve the same goal. The fact that it's been known for some time that the cap would go up does not change this. 6 million has been the status quo for a very long time now.

If it goes up significantly, it will be a miserable grind. Instead of increasing the XP required, you should seriously consider leaving it at 6 million. That way we'd have the option of playing different content with each ER, and that would keep it fresh. I'd be far more interested in continuing to play & ER if I didn't have to grind the same stuff forever, over & over.


I think rebalancing the curve so that it takes 7.5 million xp to get to 30 would be a reasonable compromise.

(Right now it's 6.6 million to get to 28.)

OK well there's gonna be 10 Epic levels instead of 8.

So why not simply change the xp per level from 21-30 to be 660,000 per level.

That would make 20-21 not so silly quick and make 27-28 or 28-29 or 29-30 not so long!

It would also remove the issue of latecomers requiring a much worse grind than those who've already completed all destinies and at least half their E-TRs!


Also - When the Cap goes up to 30 players who've earned enough XP to be 29 will be able to level instantly - Those who've earned enough XP to be 30 {are capped 28} will be 1xp away from being able to take 30.
Lvl 21/22 players obviously shouldn't be de-levelled though.

Uska
10-28-2015, 06:24 AM
A character at cap 28 would need 1.5M to 29 and 1.65M to 30 (3.15M additional exp). Is there any reason to expect this progression to change?

They mentioned that they might reduce the curve

Uska
10-28-2015, 06:27 AM
I think rebalancing the curve so that it takes 7.5 million xp to get to 30 would be a reasonable compromise. (Right now it's 6.6 million to get to 28.)

Raising it significantly -- which IMO is anything above 8 million to get to 30 -- does nothing except punish newer players. That seems counterproductive to me.

That's to little an increase maybe a total of 8 to 8.5 would be sensible

draven1
10-28-2015, 08:23 AM
How about ER requires 6.6 million karma xp only?
Once you over level 20, you can ER anytime if you have 6.6 million karma.

JP457
10-28-2015, 09:14 AM
~ Just a reminder that epic levels are increasing to level 30 with Update 29, so if you are working on an Epic character for the purpose of a true reincarnation you might want to level before update 29 as it will be take more XP when you can go to level 30.

~ Yes, we have read the question about what happens when a level 28 character starts a reincarnation and then the level is increased. We are discussing that internally.

Sev~


Why not let those of us at 28 bank the xp now? That way, when the cap goes to 30 we'll already have the xp to level and TR.

Uska
10-28-2015, 10:08 AM
How about ER requires 6.6 million karma xp only?
Once you over level 20, you can ER anytime if you have 6.6 million karma.

No it was always suppose to be xp cap and that shouldn't change

Uska
10-28-2015, 10:10 AM
Why not let those of us at 28 bank the xp now? That way, when the cap goes to 30 we'll already have the xp to level and TR.

Why add more now and your idea could bug things later

Shoemaker
10-28-2015, 11:30 AM
~ Just a reminder that epic levels are increasing to level 30 with Update 29, so if you are working on an Epic character for the purpose of a true reincarnation you might want to level before update 29 as it will be take more XP when you can go to level 30.

~ Yes, we have read the question about what happens when a level 28 character starts a reincarnation and then the level is increased. We are discussing that internally.

Sev~

Am I the only one noticing Severlin saying that true reincarnation (as opposed to epic reincarnation) is being bumped up to level 30? Was this a typo Sev or is it really TR going from 20 to 30?

elvesunited
10-28-2015, 11:38 AM
So why not simply change the xp per level from 21-30 to be 660,000 per level.
Because the experience per quest grows as you get higher in levels and are able to handle tougher quests. Right now they are "trying" to balance it so you spend about the same time per epic level.

How about this rebalance?

xp ( in thousands )

lvl xp total
------------------------------------
21 300 300
22 400 700
23 500 1200
24 600 1800
25 700 2500
26 800 3300
27 900 4200
28 1000 5200
29 1100 6300
30 1200 7500

Systern
10-28-2015, 12:09 PM
~ Just a reminder that epic levels are increasing to level 30 with Update 29, so if you are working on an Epic character for the purpose of a true reincarnation you might want to level before update 29 as it will be take more XP when you can go to level 30.

~ Yes, we have read the question about what happens when a level 28 character starts a reincarnation and then the level is increased. We are discussing that internally.

Sev~


I know it's a long shot, but...

Any efforts to improving the TR Cache for those of us still TRing into regular and Iconic builds? With the increase to 30, I'm going to want another tier of grinding gear. (i.e. I currently make due with L25 gear to get to 28 before TRing, and haven't really collected Necro4/ToEE gear because it's not worth storing for the amount of time I'll use it... With the increase to 30, I'll want/need to have a set and that means more space required in inventory/bank to clear it out, and the additional wasted time clearing it out of the cache each TR...)

It'd be nice if the TR cache:


Was more responsive removing items.
Had a search bar
Didn't need to be emptied each TR (pie in the sky)

Vanhooger
10-28-2015, 12:34 PM
I know it's a long shot, but...

Any efforts to improving the TR Cache for those of us still TRing into regular and Iconic builds? With the increase to 30, I'm going to want another tier of grinding gear. (i.e. I currently make due with L25 gear to get to 28 before TRing, and haven't really collected Necro4/ToEE gear because it's not worth storing for the amount of time I'll use it... With the increase to 30, I'll want/need to have a set and that means more space required in inventory/bank to clear it out, and the additional wasted time clearing it out of the cache each TR...)

It'd be nice if the TR cache:


Was more responsive removing items.
Had a search bar
Didn't need to be emptied each TR (pie in the sky)



This still my dream, but I lost hope in it.

golruul
10-28-2015, 12:56 PM
How much more?
Levels 26-28 are already a grind on an ER, though IRs aren't as bad with the first time bonuses.
If the original plan of 3 million extra XP needed is still happening, that will be enough for me to quit DDO.

This is my thought as well, although I never commented on this topic until now. I'm a casual player and TR every 3-6 months. Adding another ~3 million XP or so will significantly extend the time to TR. I wouldn't have minded if we originally had to do that extra ~3 million, but putting it now punishes the players that didn't grind out all the past lives (i.e. casual players and new players).

I've been a VIP for several years but will be cancelling it when this goes live. And since access to new content from the past two years will go away when my VIP expires, I won't bother playing anymore either.

Qhualor
10-28-2015, 01:03 PM
This is my thought as well, although I never commented on this topic until now. I'm a casual player and TR every 3-6 months. Adding another ~3 million XP or so will significantly extend the time to TR. I wouldn't have minded if we originally had to do that extra ~3 million, but putting it now punishes the players that didn't grind out all the past lives (i.e. casual players and new players).

I've been a VIP for several years but will be cancelling it when this goes live. And since access to new content from the past two years will go away when my VIP expires, I won't bother playing anymore either.

It's not a punishment. We have known a couple years that cap will be eventually 30. The same "punishment" argument was used when cap became 25 and again at 28. Past lives are optional, not a requirement. It's up to the individual player if they think it's worth the grind.

EllisDee37
10-28-2015, 01:06 PM
It's not a punishment. We have known a couple years that cap will be eventually 30. The same "punishment" argument was used when cap became 25 and again at 28That's a great attemp at revisionist history, but no, the same arguments were NOT used when the cap went to 25 and 28. Heroic TR xp requirements have never gone up (in fact, they've come down) and ETR didn't exist until the level cap was 28. So it's not possible that this came up before.

EllisDee37
10-28-2015, 01:09 PM
That's to little an increase maybe a total of 8 to 8.5 would be sensibleYou also think 10 million per level would be sensible, so there's that.

Uska
10-28-2015, 01:16 PM
Am I the only one noticing Severlin saying that true reincarnation (as opposed to epic reincarnation) is being bumped up to level 30? Was this a typo Sev or is it really TR going from 20 to 30?

Typo

Uska
10-28-2015, 01:17 PM
You also think 10 million per level would be sensible, so there's that.

Yes but I lowered that didn't I 900k is way to low to gain the next 2 levels

golruul
10-28-2015, 01:23 PM
It's not a punishment. We have known a couple years that cap will be eventually 30. The same "punishment" argument was used when cap became 25 and again at 28. Past lives are optional, not a requirement. It's up to the individual player if they think it's worth the grind.

We did not all know cap was going up to 30 for several years. YOU and probably anyone that regularly reads all of the forums did. I found out maybe 6 months ago from a random post I read. How many casual players do you think constantly read all of the forums? There's nothing in game that lets casual players know about this.

I started playing epics when the cap was 28, so I didn't experience the 25 cap. If I did, I would have the same argument about punishing casual/new players, because that's exactly what's happening. This current increase personally affects me, though, which is why I'm making these posts.

Your last sentence is correct, though, regardless of the particular topic. It's up to the individual to determine if the game is worth it. For some, the recent rebalance made the game not worth it. For me, XP increase to ETR is the tipping point.

Lonnbeimnech
10-28-2015, 01:24 PM
Egads, 3.15Mil xp. That will take the better half of a Saturday evening, assuming I don't drink a pot.

Can we make it 30 mil for lvl 29 and 60 mil for lvl 30, so I might have a reason to log in more than once that month?

Uska
10-28-2015, 01:24 PM
We did not all know cap was going up to 30 for several years. YOU and probably anyone that regularly reads all of the forums did. I found out maybe 6 months ago from a random post I read. How many casual players do you think constantly read all of the forums? There's nothing in game that lets casual players know about this.

I started playing epics when the cap was 28, so I didn't experience the 25 cap. If I did, I would have the same argument about punishing casual/new players, because that's exactly what's happening. This current increase personally affects me, though, which is why I'm making these posts.

Your last sentence is correct, though, regardless of the particular topic. It's up to the individual to determine if the game is worth it. For some, the recent rebalance made the game not worth it. For me, XP increase to ETR is the tipping point.

More levels should take more experience PERIOD!

EllisDee37
10-28-2015, 01:27 PM
I started playing epics when the cap was 28, so I didn't experience the 25 cap. If I did, I would have the same argument about punishing casual/new players, because that's exactly what's happening. This current increase personally affects me, though, which is why I'm making these posts.You probably wouldn't have.

When the cap was 25, we couldn't ETR. There was no point in gaining epic levels, really, other than getting the feats and higher ML gear. It certainly wasn't worth grinding out xp to level in epics. (Fate points was why people used to grind epics.)

When 28 was introduced and epic xp to cap went up from 3 million to 6.6 million, they finally gave us something to do: ETR. We were never able to ETR for only 3 million xp, the xp needed was never raised. (Until u29, sounds like.)

Qhualor
10-28-2015, 01:33 PM
That's a great attemp at revisionist history, but no, the same arguments were NOT used when the cap went to 25 and 28. Heroic TR xp requirements have never gone up (in fact, they've come down) and ETR didn't exist until the level cap was 28. So it's not possible that this came up before.

Don't know why you brought up heroic. I was talking about epic. You really are saying there was no discussions on some people not liking the raise in xp and reincarnating saying how painful it would be?

What were some players suggesting to do when leveling through off destinies? TR into a class that better fits those destinies.

What were some players suggesting to do to reset MM, to reset slayers and get back BB? TR.

What were some players responses to those suggestions? Its too much of a grind already having to go back to level 1/15. If you read those threads, than you would have seen those "punishment" responses. When cap moved to 28, the same thing. What I said wasn't made up.

EllisDee37
10-28-2015, 01:34 PM
Don't know why you brought up heroic. I was talking about epic. You really are saying there was no discussions on some people not liking the raise in xp and reincarnating saying how painful it would be? Yes, I really am saying that. The xp requirements for ETR were never raised. Ever.

Qhualor
10-28-2015, 01:36 PM
We did not all know cap was going up to 30 for several years. YOU and probably anyone that regularly reads all of the forums did. I found out maybe 6 months ago from a random post I read. How many casual players do you think constantly read all of the forums? There's nothing in game that lets casual players know about this.

There in lies the problem. Maybe the devs are hoping word of mouth will get information out into the game.

Qhualor
10-28-2015, 01:37 PM
Yes, I really am saying that. The xp requirements for ETR were never raised. Ever.

There is a wiki page that shows how much xp is needed for each level. I suggest looking it up.

EllisDee37
10-28-2015, 01:48 PM
There is a wiki page that shows how much xp is needed for each level. I suggest looking it up.Why? ETR has always required 6.6 million xp. It's never been raised.

Qhualor
10-28-2015, 02:04 PM
Why? ETR has always required 6.6 million xp. It's never been raised.

The levels have raised. That's the point I'm trying to make. When cap went to 28, some people wanted to reincarnate at 25. The same is being said now that some are suggesting to reincarnate at 28 when cap goes to 30. They dont want to have to go an extra 2 levels. It doesn't matter if it's the same xp to reincarnate, it's the raising of levels. With those levels comes xp that you need to earn to get to the next level.

EllisDee37
10-28-2015, 02:05 PM
To recap, the "punishment argument" goes like this: Veterans were able to gain epic past lives for 6.6 million xp each for two years. If that's now raised to 10+ million, the only result is a punishment to newer and casual players who now have to grind almost twice as much for the same result.

In response, you said:

It's not a punishment. We have known a couple years that cap will be eventually 30. The same "punishment" argument was used when cap became 25 and again at 28. Past lives are optional, not a requirement. It's up to the individual player if they think it's worth the grind.Which is just wrong on so many levels.

First, nobody ever said that when the level cap was raised from 20 to 25. I can't believe you cited that. There was no epic xp at all when the level cap was 20. Epic xp was first introduced when the cap went to 25. I can't figure out why you think people made this argument when the cap went to 25.

When the cap was 25, there was no point in gaining epic levels. Nobody felt they had to grind epic levels. The grind was for fate points. The problem was that epic levels were largely pointless. A level 20 with destinies and twists squared away was far mor powerful than a 25 without them.

When the cap was raised to 28, they added ETR for the first time. Now, finally, we had a reason to level to cap.

Now with the raise to 30, for the first time ever, we're having to run more xp for the same past life benefits than we used to. That's never happened before, not even for heroic TR. Past life requirements have gone down, but they've never gone up.

EDIT: I only joined the game in 2011, so if we could TR when the cap was 12 or 16, I stand corrected. That was before my time.

Loromir
10-28-2015, 02:35 PM
When cap went to 28, some people wanted to reincarnate at 25.

Epic and Iconic Reincarnation was not possible when cap was 25. So no would could legitimately claim it was punishment.

Loromir
10-28-2015, 02:36 PM
EDIT: I only joined the game in 2011, so if we could TR when the cap was 12 or 16, I stand corrected. That was before my time.

Reincarnation didn't exist before lvl cap of 20.

Shoemaker
10-28-2015, 02:59 PM
Okay... So, I've done the maths...




Level
Current System
Proposed System
Scaled to make new 30 == current 28


Increment =
150K per level
125K per level
101.53846K per level


Base for
level 21
times 2
is increment


21
300,000 / 300,000
250,00 / 250,000
203,077 / 203,077


22
450,000 / 750,000
375,000 / 625,000
304,615 / 507,692


23
600,000 / 1,350,000
500,000 / 1,125,000
406,154 / 913,846


24
750,000 / 2,100,000
625,000 / 1,750,000
507,692 / 1,421,538


25
900,000 / 3,000,000
750,000 / 2,500,000
609,231 / 2,030,769


26
1,150,000 / 4,150,000

875,000 / 3,375,000
710,769 / 2,741,538


27
1,300,000 / 5,450,000
1,000,000 / 4,375,000
812,308 / 3,553,846


28
1,450,000 / 6,600,000
1,125,000 / 5,500,000
913,846 / 4,467,692


29
1,600,000 / 8,200,000
1,250,000 / 6,750,000
1,015,385 / 5,483,077


30
1,750,000 / 9,950,000
1,375,000 / 8,125,000
1,116,923 / 6,600,000







So, my proposal is that they shave 25K off per level (doubled for 21 of course). Using my proposed system, level 29 will still be above the current level 28 (even if only by 150K) and I don't think that 1.375M is too much XP to get from 29 to 30 (it's less than the current 1.45M to get from 27 to 28). This proposal will also make up for some of the XP lost by being unable to bank it waiting for this cap increase.

Gurei23
10-28-2015, 03:25 PM
~ Just a reminder that epic levels are increasing to level 30 with Update 29, so if you are working on an Epic character for the purpose of a true reincarnation you might want to level before update 29 as it will be take more XP when you can go to level 30.

~ Yes, we have read the question about what happens when a level 28 character starts a reincarnation and then the level is increased. We are discussing that internally.

Sev~

If you feel like you have to WARN your player base before you make a change, chances are the change isn't in the player's best interests. I sincerely hope you take the thread I made 6 weeks ago seriously, Varg didn't want it discussed until it was being discussed by the devs, so here it is. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/465268-Cap-Increase-ETR-ITR-Concern




It's not a punishment. We have known a couple years that cap will be eventually 30. The same "punishment" argument was used when cap became 25 and again at 28. Past lives are optional, not a requirement. It's up to the individual player if they think it's worth the grind.

This is a point Cordovan made in Twitch and it's about 1% relevant to the complaints and offers nothing but a fake argument for going through with a bad choice. There was no ERing or IRing when the cap was 25, there was no EPL or IPL until an update AFTER the level cap increase, lv 28 was established BEFORE ER/IR was implemented.

maddong
10-28-2015, 04:01 PM
It wouldn't kill you to keep itr/etr at level 28. It is easier for people to fix characters that have been nerfed that way. You still have to bring at least 1 character to endgame to farm heart seeds unless heaven forbid the change leads to people spending tp at level 28 for their heart.

Not to mention the goodwill you get from the playerbase for not increasing their required level to itr/etr.

FranOhmsford
10-28-2015, 04:16 PM
You probably wouldn't have.

When the cap was 25, we couldn't ETR. There was no point in gaining epic levels, really, other than getting the feats and higher ML gear. It certainly wasn't worth grinding out xp to level in epics. (Fate points was why people used to grind epics.)

When 28 was introduced and epic xp to cap went up from 3 million to 6.6 million, they finally gave us something to do: ETR. We were never able to ETR for only 3 million xp, the xp needed was never raised. (Until u29, sounds like.)

And all those people who did grind out their destinies and fate points while cap was 25 didn't have to worry about them when cap went up to 28.
So then with cap 28 they went straight to grinding out E-TRs.
There were also Cheese methods available - Rusted Blades!

Now those people when cap goes up to 30 will not need to worry about any of that - The grind is already done!
The rest of us however....!

SoulDuster
10-28-2015, 04:22 PM
[QUOTE=GeoffWatson;5714071]How much more?
Levels 26-28 are already a grind on an ER, though IRs aren't as bad with the first time bonuses.
If the original plan of 3 million extra XP needed is still happening, that will be enough for me to quit

I run my toon to 20 in 3-5 days with all the 30 pots i have rolled 5 ship buff and 5 masters gift.

I run my toon to 28 in less than 48 hours the same way.

Never run any heroic quests that are epic capable.

Pulled 451K out of von5 first time thats huge xp for a 30 minute run with First time bonus BB and 40% on top of it.

If you can't save your virgin XP BB EE for Epic you should look at where your wasting your xp.

I did 9 ETR one life 9th was a grind but new xp available now so easy enuf once again.

Hit 20 Run all first time EE BB ETR IR whatever Run all EH or slayers you setup for quick leveling so much xp in this game it's not funny

20xp cap should be 5million

30xp cap should be 10million

unfortunately Turbine lowered this xp with Ottos boxes in mind

First life toon 1.9 mil xp - 1 otto box done 1 hour life TR reset timer provided

Second life 2.85 mil xp - 1 otto box small xp pot 1 hour life TR reset timer provided

Third life 3.8 mil xp - 1 otto box 50 pot 1 hour life TR reset timer provided

4th life toon 3.8 mil xp 36 point build 3 past lives

Wonder why the xp curve got lowered do some basic math it made Turbine money plain and simple

I ground out over two dozen lives at 4.3mil running to 20 and tr'ing immediately without any greensteel any otto's and no 50 pots I finished 7 lives to my guildies 1 TR mind you I was laid off and had a very effective system still do still works day in day out.

Quit wasting your Epic XP and it's easy to cap 28 I average over 200k per hour.

I am by no means an Uber or Elitist player I die plenty but I get back up and run it again and again til I figure out what works for me and my builds.

If you want to run with the Big Dogs Lead Follow or Get Outta the way.

Pike if you like but you deaths don't cost me XP anymore anyway

Uska
10-28-2015, 04:25 PM
If you feel like you have to WARN your player base before you make a change, chances are the change isn't in the player's best interests. I sincerely hope you take the thread I made 6 weeks ago seriously, Varg didn't want it discussed until it was being discussed by the devs, so here it is. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/465268-Cap-Increase-ETR-ITR-Concern





This is a point Cordovan made in Twitch and it's about 1% relevant to the complaints and offers nothing but a fake argument for going through with a bad choice. There was no ERing or IRing when the cap was 25, there was no EPL or IPL until an update AFTER the level cap increase, lv 28 was established BEFORE ER/IR was implemented.

they stated right from the start when the cap was raised you would have to be cap'd to ETR it has been a known fact since ETR existed and its also know that more levels should take more xp

Uska
10-28-2015, 04:25 PM
It wouldn't kill you to keep itr/etr at level 28. It is easier for people to fix characters that have been nerfed that way. You still have to bring at least 1 character to endgame to farm heart seeds unless heaven forbid the change leads to people spending tp at level 28 for their heart.

Not to mention the goodwill you get from the playerbase for not increasing their required level to itr/etr.

IT would be wrong to do so right from the very first its was stated ETR should be cap and that shouldnt change.

Mirta
10-28-2015, 04:28 PM
Okay... So, I've done the maths...




Level
Current System
Proposed System
Scaled to make new 30 == current 28


Increment =
150K per level
125K per level
101.53846K per level


Base for
level 21
times 2
is increment


21
300,000 / 300,000
250,00 / 250,000
203,077 / 203,077


22
450,000 / 750,000
375,000 / 625,000
304,615 / 507,692


23
600,000 / 1,350,000
500,000 / 1,125,000
406,154 / 913,846


24
750,000 / 2,100,000
625,000 / 1,750,000
507,692 / 1,421,538


25
900,000 / 3,000,000
750,000 / 2,500,000
609,231 / 2,030,769


26
1,150,000 / 4,150,000

875,000 / 3,375,000
710,769 / 2,741,538


27
1,300,000 / 5,450,000
1,000,000 / 4,375,000
812,308 / 3,553,846


28
1,450,000 / 6,600,000
1,125,000 / 5,500,000
913,846 / 4,467,692


29
1,600,000 / 8,200,000
1,250,000 / 6,750,000
1,015,385 / 5,483,077


30
1,750,000 / 9,950,000
1,375,000 / 8,125,000
1,116,923 / 6,600,000







So, my proposal is that they shave 25K off per level (doubled for 21 of course). Using my proposed system, level 29 will still be above the current level 28 (even if only by 150K) and I don't think that 1.375M is too much XP to get from 29 to 30 (it's less than the current 1.45M to get from 27 to 28). This proposal will also make up for some of the XP lost by being unable to bank it waiting for this cap increase.

Not too shabby. I could see this working well.


How about ER requires 6.6 million karma xp only?
Once you over level 20, you can ER anytime if you have 6.6 million karma.

This. Why do we need to be max level when it only takes 6mil karma anyways? There is no legitimate reason not to let us bank karma and spend it at will. Hell, it would probably even encourage people to run more stuff at cap, including raids.

SoulDuster
10-28-2015, 04:32 PM
Took me 2 count them 2 Iconic Shadari-Ki lives to cap my rouge toon ED's completely out in all 12 spheres.

Remove the word CAN'T from your vocabulary

casual players should be the last players worried about xp bb or anything else in this game

they come they go they return that is why they are casual

I ground out my triple in 17 months minus my warlocks now but ETR's are far more important at this stage of the game anyway

JOTMON
10-28-2015, 04:42 PM
~ Just a reminder that epic levels are increasing to level 30 with Update 29, so if you are working on an Epic character for the purpose of a true reincarnation you might want to level before update 29 as it will be take more XP when you can go to level 30.

~ Yes, we have read the question about what happens when a level 28 character starts a reincarnation and then the level is increased. We are discussing that internally.

Sev~

would be nice if you could set it up so that we can take multiple spheres and cash them in when doing a n ER from 30 back to 20.
I am running into situations where all my spheres are capped and every time I ER I am wasting/losing XP.

Qhualor
10-28-2015, 05:05 PM
Epic and Iconic Reincarnation was not possible when cap was 25. So no would could legitimately claim it was punishment.


This is a point Cordovan made in Twitch and it's about 1% relevant to the complaints and offers nothing but a fake argument for going through with a bad choice. There was no ERing or IRing when the cap was 25, there was no EPL or IPL until an update AFTER the level cap increase, lv 28 was established BEFORE ER/IR was implemented.

I know this. Producer Glin told us the future plans of epic, iconic and heroic reincarnation back in june 2013 for level 28 https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418543-Epic-Level-amp-Iconic-TR?highlight=reincarnation there were posts made by some players that said it would be too grindy to have to level to 28 to reincarnate and wanted to be able to do it at level 25. there were many posts after this announcement while cap was still level 25 over the next several months about this.

this is the point I am making. that players disliked the increased levels so they can do a reincarnation. again, now with level 30 almost here, the same thing is being said. players dislike having to earn 2 more levels to reincarnate and want to continue doing it at level 28.

Blastyswa
10-28-2015, 06:05 PM
~ Just a reminder that epic levels are increasing to level 30 with Update 29, so if you are working on an Epic character for the purpose of a true reincarnation you might want to level before update 29 as it will be take more XP when you can go to level 30.

~ Yes, we have read the question about what happens when a level 28 character starts a reincarnation and then the level is increased. We are discussing that internally.

Sev~

(Last two paragraphs are my suggestions if in a rush, everything before it is support)
I very much hope the xp needed, at least for Epic Reincarnation, stays at 6.6m. As it is, I can take a character from level 20-28 with about 30 hours of gameplay at my best judgement. That's with ENx2 Von 3, 4, Spies, Wiz-King, OoB, WGU, Mirror, an EE GH Pass, and some other eveningstar saga questing typically. While I don't think it is particularly difficult to get to that amount of xp, it is also not very fun. I'm actually leaving my mega completionist character (3x heroic/iconic, 1x epic) at only one epic completionist pass through ETRs, just because of how utterly boring it is. It's not much fun, nor is it practical, to run more difficult content for far less xp/min when the sole purpose of leveling is just to repeat the process, and I still have a dozen alts that need epic completionist.

When the level cap is raised, which I very much look forward to, I hope that Epic Reincarnation is not killed in the process. There simply is not enough xp in the game as is to make it fun to go from 20-28, much less 20-30. Let me emphasize the word fun in that statement. It is certainly possible to put in 3 hours a day for about a week doing ENx2 quests, and reincarnate fairly often. At that rate it would take approximately 3 months to get epic completionist, about the same time it takes to make a Mortal Fear item without raid timers/friends passing ingredients. That time table is perfectly acceptable; however, keep in mind that at this point the game becomes less of "Can't wait to go play some DDO" and more like "Sorry, I need to get my 3 hours in for a past life". I personally am not a fan at all of the second scenario.

I would hope that when the level cap rises, which it most certainly will and which is most certainly welcomed, it will be accompanied by one of three things. One way to make/keep epic reincarnation reasonable would be simply to rebalance the currently needed xp all the way to level 30, and perhaps make it a little less curved. This would make epic reincarnations essentially take the same time, operating under the assumption that most players can complete menial xp grinding quests in similar times even with suboptimal gearing (being lower level). A second way, one which I consider preferable to the first, would be keep epic reincarnation at 28 and increase the level cap to 30. This would keep epic reincarnation completely unchanged, and make levels 29-30 the levels of the endgamer; I would even be in favor of then making those levels either take quite a bit more experience (less preferable) or do something like make each quest only count for experience once per day, or once period, in those levels. This would help to make level 30 mean more that the character at that level is parked, and didn't just run the xp train a few extra days.

The other option, which has likely been stated before and that I believe would be the optimal solution, in addition to being able to be implemented alongside another change, would be to raise the experience of other quests. The nerfing of the current xp farm quests would not be an acceptable solution; questing is done on these quests primarily because the xp for time from then vastly exceeds that from many other quests. Increasing experience on other quests would be a good way to make epic reincarnations have more than one good way to do them; instead of everyone running variations on the same 10-20 quests, other quests could be ran as well. To accomplish proper xp scaling, I would take a sampling of several thousand random players from the active playerbase from levels 20-28 (Not from the forums, and not volunteers) give them a special login key to Lammania while it is down for everyone else, and give them a week or so with the request that they try and run as many different quests as they can. Characters from the live server would be copied over for them to use; after the end of the week, if they ran on the server, offer something along the lines of an epic experience stone as recompense for doing so. Basically, give the testers a free ETR for running all the quests. Then, using the information from the completion times of quests, which would range from short to long due to the random sampling method getting semi-casuals, forum paladins, and average players alike, determine xp amounts for each quest that would give them all similar xp/minute. This is not reducing quests to all being the same or anything silly like that; instead, what it does is makes running the snitch just as good on xp (typically) as running devil assault, or chains of flame, or Tomb of the Wizard King. In the end, that leads to more options in questing, as people can run other quests without feeling a sense of "wastage" because they aren't maximizing the xp they get in that time.

That's my two cents on this matter.

Blastyswa
10-28-2015, 06:10 PM
To recap, the "punishment argument" goes like this: Veterans were able to gain epic past lives for 6.6 million xp each for two years. If that's now raised to 10+ million, the only result is a punishment to newer and casual players who now have to grind almost twice as much for the same result.

In response, you said:
Which is just wrong on so many levels.

First, nobody ever said that when the level cap was raised from 20 to 25. I can't believe you cited that. There was no epic xp at all when the level cap was 20. Epic xp was first introduced when the cap went to 25. I can't figure out why you think people made this argument when the cap went to 25.

When the cap was 25, there was no point in gaining epic levels. Nobody felt they had to grind epic levels. The grind was for fate points. The problem was that epic levels were largely pointless. A level 20 with destinies and twists squared away was far mor powerful than a 25 without them.

When the cap was raised to 28, they added ETR for the first time. Now, finally, we had a reason to level to cap.

Now with the raise to 30, for the first time ever, we're having to run more xp for the same past life benefits than we used to. That's never happened before, not even for heroic TR. Past life requirements have gone down, but they've never gone up.

EDIT: I only joined the game in 2011, so if we could TR when the cap was 12 or 16, I stand corrected. That was before my time.

Nice points; you have my agreement on all counts.

Uska
10-28-2015, 07:57 PM
(Last two paragraphs are my suggestions if in a rush, everything before it is support)
I very much hope the xp needed, at least for Epic Reincarnation, stays at 6.6m. As it is, I can take a character from level 20-28 with about 30 hours of gameplay at my best judgement. That's with ENx2 Von 3, 4, Spies, Wiz-King, OoB, WGU, Mirror, an EE GH Pass, and some other eveningstar saga questing typically. While I don't think it is particularly difficult to get to that amount of xp, it is also not very fun. I'm actually leaving my mega completionist character (3x heroic/iconic, 1x epic) at only one epic completionist pass through ETRs, just because of how utterly boring it is. It's not much fun, nor is it practical, to run more difficult content for far less xp/min when the sole purpose of leveling is just to repeat the process, and I still have a dozen alts that need epic completionist.

When the level cap is raised, which I very much look forward to, I hope that Epic Reincarnation is not killed in the process. There simply is not enough xp in the game as is to make it fun to go from 20-28, much less 20-30. Let me emphasize the word fun in that statement. It is certainly possible to put in 3 hours a day for about a week doing ENx2 quests, and reincarnate fairly often. At that rate it would take approximately 3 months to get epic completionist, about the same time it takes to make a Mortal Fear item without raid timers/friends passing ingredients. That time table is perfectly acceptable; however, keep in mind that at this point the game becomes less of "Can't wait to go play some DDO" and more like "Sorry, I need to get my 3 hours in for a past life". I personally am not a fan at all of the second scenario.

I would hope that when the level cap rises, which it most certainly will and which is most certainly welcomed, it will be accompanied by one of three things. One way to make/keep epic reincarnation reasonable would be simply to rebalance the currently needed xp all the way to level 30, and perhaps make it a little less curved. This would make epic reincarnations essentially take the same time, operating under the assumption that most players can complete menial xp grinding quests in similar times even with suboptimal gearing (being lower level). A second way, one which I consider preferable to the first, would be keep epic reincarnation at 28 and increase the level cap to 30. This would keep epic reincarnation completely unchanged, and make levels 29-30 the levels of the endgamer; I would even be in favor of then making those levels either take quite a bit more experience (less preferable) or do something like make each quest only count for experience once per day, or once period, in those levels. This would help to make level 30 mean more that the character at that level is parked, and didn't just run the xp train a few extra days.

The other option, which has likely been stated before and that I believe would be the optimal solution, in addition to being able to be implemented alongside another change, would be to raise the experience of other quests. The nerfing of the current xp farm quests would not be an acceptable solution; questing is done on these quests primarily because the xp for time from then vastly exceeds that from many other quests. Increasing experience on other quests would be a good way to make epic reincarnations have more than one good way to do them; instead of everyone running variations on the same 10-20 quests, other quests could be ran as well. To accomplish proper xp scaling, I would take a sampling of several thousand random players from the active playerbase from levels 20-28 (Not from the forums, and not volunteers) give them a special login key to Lammania while it is down for everyone else, and give them a week or so with the request that they try and run as many different quests as they can. Characters from the live server would be copied over for them to use; after the end of the week, if they ran on the server, offer something along the lines of an epic experience stone as recompense for doing so. Basically, give the testers a free ETR for running all the quests. Then, using the information from the completion times of quests, which would range from short to long due to the random sampling method getting semi-casuals, forum paladins, and average players alike, determine xp amounts for each quest that would give them all similar xp/minute. This is not reducing quests to all being the same or anything silly like that; instead, what it does is makes running the snitch just as good on xp (typically) as running devil assault, or chains of flame, or Tomb of the Wizard King. In the end, that leads to more options in questing, as people can run other quests without feeling a sense of "wastage" because they aren't maximizing the xp they get in that time.

That's my two cents on this matter.

Its going to increase Sev already said so

phalaeo
10-29-2015, 08:30 AM
Why don't we just let people still epic TR at level 28?

Exactly. It's worked up until this point, why change it?

Allow people to TR at 28.

Uska
10-29-2015, 11:37 AM
Exactly. It's worked up until this point, why change it?

Allow people to TR at 28.

You can TR at any point after 20 as to ETR it is supposed to be cap and that shouldn't change and why change the cap is changing

Grosbeak07
10-29-2015, 03:02 PM
Well add me to the list of people concerned with this post.

i don't want to see a significant amount of xp added to the game for level 30. i'd rather see things 'rounded off' and then scaled, but another million xp would be too much.

Level 25 to 28 already drag (and i have not, nor never will use stones, so i'm always leveling up the old way). I find the TR/ ETR grind very boring and feel that if you don't have these your characters start to fall very far behind (not true I know, but it does feel that way). While Level 30 is important from a character development point, I'd rather they make things easier and make it so that it is faster to ETR at level 30 then it is now and spend more time concentrating on making challenging content for level 30.

No more artificial grinds. Reduce heroic xp requirements as well for TR's. Let new and casual players who want to build characters to play end game the ability to without the need to spend $50 each life to try and catch up.

more fun, less grind.

Rasputin
10-29-2015, 03:45 PM
If I were the devs at this point, I would be more worried about why the game has had the fun sucked out of it.

My main toon, Wickedsmurf on Sarlona, has ground out all the heroic past lives that I care to get and ~30-some-odd epic past lives as well.

The TR-bank awfulness made sure that each and every heroic TR sucked so so much. I dreaded doing it every time.

The epic past lives weren't that bad to churn out, but I wouldn't call them fun in any way. If I hadn't been able to watch Netflix on my second monitor the entire time I would never have been able to make them happen.

I would get more heroic past lives, enough to get completionist (I am only lacking a few classes) but why would I bother? My build is so tight for feats that I simply cannot spare one for the completionist feat, NOR SHOULD I HAVE TO. At cap, +2 to all stats is not nearly the slice of awesomeness that it was at level 20.

Fix the TR bank situation. Memory storage space is dirt cheap these days. I'd suggest getting rid of the requirement to have to empty it every time. I would also recommend that the TR Bank be sortable by level, at a minimum.

With all the toons and treasure going on these days, we need the ability to see and sort our inventory for all our characters on our account, including banks, including TR banks, including containers. Seriously.


There's just no reason to play any more. We've played the same, old, tired dungeons over and over and over again, with and without our friends. We have all the gear we care to grind for.

You need to come up with something radical, something new, something special, to make us want to continue to play this game. Something that doesn't ruin the existing game for everyone else, but adds to it in such a way that makes it fun again.

Compared to that, what happens to level 28-30 is a drop in the bucket.

PsychoBlonde
10-29-2015, 05:15 PM
Good to know it's gonna be next update for sure. I might take all my current level 28's and go ahead and reinc them so I don't have to level them further. I think that's like 2 characters tops tho.

I do hope you all do something reasonable with the epic xp curve so I won't be looking at something like 12M xp to 30 tho. That would be too much--have to get enough xp to cap 2 spheres to reinc? Cmon.

PsychoBlonde
10-29-2015, 05:18 PM
You need to come up with something radical, something new, something special, to make us want to continue to play this game. Something that doesn't ruin the existing game for everyone else, but adds to it in such a way that makes it fun again.

If you're not a reigning monarch is is HIGHLY inappropriate to use the words "us" and "we" to describe YOUR PERSONAL opinion. Speak for yourself and ONLY for yourself.

Jasparion
10-29-2015, 06:02 PM
~ Just a reminder that epic levels are increasing to level 30 with Update 29, so if you are working on an Epic character for the purpose of a true reincarnation you might want to level before update 29 as it will be take more XP when you can go to level 30.

~ Yes, we have read the question about what happens when a level 28 character starts a reincarnation and then the level is increased. We are discussing that internally.

Sev~

Having just returned after 6 months off, this would be a great way for me to leave again.

A large part of the game is people TRing, whether at 20 or 28. Shifting it from 28 to 30 and massively increasing the XP required makes the game worse in every conceivable way. I baffles me that for a game which has been slowly dying for years that you would be eagerly introducing a way to speed up that death.

Uska
10-29-2015, 09:35 PM
Having just returned after 6 months off, this would be a great way for me to leave again.

A large part of the game is people TRing, whether at 20 or 28. Shifting it from 28 to 30 and massively increasing the XP required makes the game worse in every conceivable way. I baffles me that for a game which has been slowly dying for years that you would be eagerly introducing a way to speed up that death.

While it shouldnt take a massive amount it should take more xp to gain 2 more levels

Gljosh
10-30-2015, 01:07 AM
I have some issues with raising the Level Cap.

1) I have been in groups that with little difficulty rolling through the latest content (level 30 quests) on EE. So adding more character power will make these easier.
2) ETR/ITR-IF we hit 10 mil to cap, that is 3.4 mil more then what we need now. So we can run quite a bit more quests for the same benefit.
3) WE need a large amount of new quests to fill the been there done that void.
4) IF 20~30 is rebalanced to be a small difference...why even do it? It would make most quests significantly easier AND add to the ETR/ITR grind.

A while back some people discussed having 29 and 30 be a different classification (the Mythic idea), that way people that want End Game can run up to 30 Mythic TR for a more power, and the ETR/ITR people don't have to get more XP for the same benefit.

Blaze-Of-Glory
10-30-2015, 08:41 AM
For those that use them....
Heroic XP Stone (Otto's box) + XP Potion + XP weekend [+ other xp boosts] = Level 20 and Heroic TR in a Box
Epic XP Stone (Otto's Box) + XP Potion + XP weekend [+ other xp boosts] = a complete waste of money

Shoemaker
10-30-2015, 10:14 AM
I have some issues with raising the Level Cap.

1) I have been in groups that with little difficulty rolling through the latest content (level 30 quests) on EE. So adding more character power will make these easier.

You seem to be overlooking the new 31+ legendary content and possibly reaper mode. Have faith that there is a master plan that will make it okay.


2) ETR/ITR-IF we hit 10 mil to cap, that is 3.4 mil more then what we need now. So we can run quite a bit more quests for the same benefit.

I agree that 3.3m more is to much for 2 levels. See my post for a counter proposal to that.


3) WE need a large amount of new quests to fill the been there done that void.

I do believe they're incoming.


4) IF 20~30 is rebalanced to be a small difference...why even do it? It would make most quests significantly easier AND add to the ETR/ITR grind.

Make up your mind. 3.3m is too much but my proposal of 1.6m isn't enough? Now you're arguing semantics...


A while back some people discussed having 29 and 30 be a different classification (the Mythic idea), that way people that want End Game can run up to 30 Mythic TR for a more power, and the ETR/ITR people don't have to get more XP for the same benefit.

Don't think this is on the agenda.

Gljosh
10-30-2015, 10:41 AM
You seem to be overlooking the new 31+ legendary content and possibly reaper mode. Have faith that there is a master plan that will make it okay.



I agree that 3.3m more is to much for 2 levels. See my post for a counter proposal to that.



I do believe they're incoming.



Make up your mind. 3.3m is too much but my proposal of 1.6m isn't enough? Now you're arguing semantics...



Don't think this is on the agenda.

Issues 2 and 4 have a large IF, in front of them. I have read both statements.

IF the reason to increase the levels IS create a more end game feel, 1.6 mil will not be enough BUT is fine for the ITR/ETR crowd.

IF the amount of needed xp is 4 mil, could be enough for the end game crowd BUT too much for the ITR/ETR crowd.

New content is great (NEW actually NEW-re using art assets are fine), but I don't care about Reaper mode, if I have already run the quest a tremendous amount of times taking the same quest and making is uber hard won't change the fact that I have already run the quest to exhaustion (I have run about 28 ETRs so I am getting tired of the current Epic quests). I have often felt that some earlier quest packs could use some Epicifying, they are under run and that could breathe some life into them, it works(ed) well for 3BC.

Engoril
10-30-2015, 11:14 AM
I agree with those who are questioning why we cannot continue to ETR at level 28 when the cap goes up.

Though to qualify, I don't actually care about the number for the level or the XP.

What I care about is the time to level up to it. I most certainly will resent it if the time to ETR increases significantly. I've only done 4 since they were introduced, because I don't play often. Increasing the time it takes to do will make me more reluctant to start one than I already am. It will increase the probability of me getting bored with the game and moving on sooner than I might otherwise do. The more stuff that is added that makes me ask "why am I bothering to do this" the sooner I reach the conclusion "I can't be bothered to do any of it".

Qualification for an ETR should actually only be based on Epic Destiny sphere XP. If you have it maxed in one then you should be able to do it in that sphere. Why does it need to be tied to Epic Level at all?

jalont
10-30-2015, 11:17 AM
If you still allow people to etr at 28, then don't even bother creating "endgame" content. No one is going to the new content, and no one is going to ever take levels 29 and 30.

Grosbeak07
10-30-2015, 11:22 AM
If you still allow people to etr at 28, then don't even bother creating "endgame" content. No one is going to the new content, and no one is going to ever take levels 29 and 30.

Spot on. For this reason, you won't be able to ETR/ITR at level 28 once the cap goes up.

To compromise, they really need to rethink the amount of xp needed at epic levels.

I've mentioned this before, but leveling should be a fun by-product of playing the game and running content.

Remove the grind, add challenging new content, raids and other ideas to keep us occupied and let the leveling process go by quickly.

Engoril
10-30-2015, 11:26 AM
If you still allow people to etr at 28, then don't even bother creating "endgame" content. No one is going to the new content, and no one is going to ever take levels 29 and 30.

The level of content people do has very little to do with the level of character. We already have level 28 characters doing level 30+ content. I regularly see even lower level epic characters being below the level of the content they are trying to do.

Also we already have the case that people who ETR don't spend any time at level 28. Changing the requirement to be level 30 would simply mean those people would spend no time at level 30 either. The benefits of levels 29 and 30 are kinda pointless if you're immediately dumping them at level 30.

Those who hold off ETRing, of which in my experience there are many, will benefit from being level 30.

Engoril
10-30-2015, 11:30 AM
To compromise, they really need to rethink the amount of xp needed at epic levels.

Its not so much the XP as the rate of XP acquisition to reach that cap that they need to think about.

psykopeta
10-30-2015, 11:44 AM
Raising xp cap 3m? Lol? Lemme explain how it should be:

Lvl/xp per lvl/total

21/120k/120k
22/240k/360k
23/360k/720k
24/480k/1200k
25/600k/1800k
26/720k/2520k
27/840k/3360k
28/960k/4320k
29/1080k/5400k
30/1200k/6600k

Xp is the same because ddo is boring enough with that xp

What's the purpose of pushing the xp cap to such amounts? DDO won't be harder

Nor will sell more epic xp stones

However, more vips will cancel subscription and less players will return

What for? Spinning the wheel stops being funny at certain point, and turbine changes were being to make it less boring

And noe they come with that genious idea...if that was the case, they shouldn't have touched the xp curve, tr'ing is optional and ddo offers msny options to keep playing, isn't it?

Cya again in few months... Or not

Thrudh
10-30-2015, 11:56 AM
If I were the devs at this point, I would be more worried about why the game has had the fun sucked out of it.

My main toon, Wickedsmurf on Sarlona, has ground out all the heroic past lives that I care to get and ~30-some-odd epic past lives as well.

The TR-bank awfulness made sure that each and every heroic TR sucked so so much. I dreaded doing it every time.

The epic past lives weren't that bad to churn out, but I wouldn't call them fun in any way. If I hadn't been able to watch Netflix on my second monitor the entire time I would never have been able to make them happen.

Egads, you people do this to yourselves.

Why would you continue to play if it was so terrible? My TRs have been a lot of fun... because I don't grind. You blame the devs for making the game unfun? There is no game you could play for hours a day, every day, for years, and not start to get bored.

So you switch it up... Don't play the same game every day... Don't try to do a TR in a week (or even less time for some of you!). When you get bored, take a break or switch characters. I run a heroic TR and it's fun because it's been a couple of months since I've seen the heroic quests... I run 2-3 epic TRs (easy to do without a lot of quest repeats with first-time bonuses), and then I usually go back to heroic, and usually switch to an alt too to switch it up even further.

I take breaks and play good single-player games on the PC (with actual endings!!), or First-Person-Shooters... My son and I got into Madden Ultimate Team on the XBOX One for a few months, playing other people around the world, and building our team up. Clash of Clan wars on my phone is a fun diversion. I still play DDO 5-10 hours every week, but it is never a grind. It was always fun to log back on. Sometimes I get into a DDO mind-set, and play only it for 2-3 weeks straight, then I start to get tired of it, and it feels grindy, and SO I STOP and take a break for a bit.

I don't have a heroic completionist, or even an epic completionist (I'm getting close to an epic completionist with one guy though). I'm still missing plenty end-game gear... But the game is still fun for me, because I DO NOT GRIND.

People who complain about grind should stop grinding. How is this hard? DDO should only be part of your video game library, not your whole life.

Thrudh
10-30-2015, 12:00 PM
Now, about the thread topic...

I would like to see epic TRs be allowed anytime you have enough karma to do so... Take eTRing away from your level, and make it just a function of having 6 million karma in a sphere.

Then end-game should be about loot. Bring back the shard/seal/scroll system we used to have for the original epics for level 30 quests.

Gljosh
10-30-2015, 12:16 PM
I have a feeling that this has been bounced around or something similar to it.

Make the move from 28 to 30 be a 4~4.5 million move (so final would be around 10.5~11 million).

Now at levels 30 you can ETR any sphere that is full, you stay at 30 it just clears a sphere OR if you want to rework your skills/feats/stats you have the option to do that as well.

ITR still takes reaching level 30, BUT you no longer have to decide between ETR or ITR. Thus comparing Heroic Past Life (3.8 million) to Iconic Past Life (5.7 to 6.2 million after you remove the 6 for an ETR) becomes quite a bit easier.
A Heroic Past Life would cost 3.8 million.
An Epic Past Life would cost 6 million.
An Iconic Past Life would cost between 2.9 (subtracting the 3.8 for Heroic and 6 for ETR) to 8.9 million (subtracting the 3.8 for heroic).

Ryiah
10-30-2015, 12:26 PM
My TRs have been a lot of fun... because I don't grind.

Mine used to be a lot less enjoyable until I got to this point as well. Going through and zerging content for the most experience possible can only be done so many times before it gets old. Now I mostly run whatever I'm in the mood for - high XP quests, moderate XP quests, slayer areas, getting every explorer, etc.



I take breaks and play good single-player games on the PC (with actual endings!!)

Same. I'm eagerly anticipating Bethesda's next game. Not to mention I plan to sit down sometime and play through all five of the Elder Scrolls games in order.



I don't have a heroic completionist, or even an epic completionist (I'm getting close to an epic completionist with one guy though). I'm still missing plenty end-game gear...

I have two Heroic completionist characters and I'm finishing up a third while working towards Epic completionist on the other two. Gear though is another story. Aside from must haves like Epic Litany I won't waste my time farming much at all.

Grosbeak07
10-30-2015, 12:53 PM
Its not so much the XP as the rate of XP acquisition to reach that cap that they need to think about.

They have tried that by raising xp values of some quests. it just makes some quests worth repeating daily and others not worth running at all. Its just easier to run 10 What goes up, instead of 20 other quests. They would have to balance out xp again, which would end up with shorter and easier quests getting more xp and we are right back to running House of Rusted Blades again.

By changing the amount of epic xp needed to hit cap, still won't fix this problem. Players will still take the easiest route available to them to accomplish their goals. However, those who don't like grind or have less time to devote to this game, can still keep up without the burn out.

Players should be able to run the content they want/like to and still achieve their goals in a reasonable amount of time. More fun, less grind.

Grosbeak07
10-30-2015, 12:56 PM
Raising xp cap 3m? Lol? Lemme explain how it should be:

Lvl/xp per lvl/total

21/120k/120k
22/240k/360k
23/360k/720k
24/480k/1200k
25/600k/1800k
26/720k/2520k
27/840k/3360k
28/960k/4320k
29/1080k/5400k
30/1200k/6600k

Xp is the same because ddo is boring enough with that xp

What's the purpose of pushing the xp cap to such amounts? DDO won't be harder

Nor will sell more epic xp stones

However, more vips will cancel subscription and less players will return

What for? Spinning the wheel stops being funny at certain point, and turbine changes were being to make it less boring

And noe they come with that genious idea...if that was the case, they shouldn't have touched the xp curve, tr'ing is optional and ddo offers msny options to keep playing, isn't it?

Cya again in few months... Or not

I'd be totally Ok with this.

Grinding xp is only fun when there is good content to play. We have uninspired content right now, which makes the grind feel worse then it probably is.

Grosbeak07
10-30-2015, 01:08 PM
Egads, you people do this to yourselves.

Why would you continue to play if it was so terrible? My TRs have been a lot of fun... because I don't grind. You blame the devs for making the game unfun? There is no game you could play for hours a day, every day, for years, and not start to get bored.

So you switch it up... Don't play the same game every day... Don't try to do a TR in a week (or even less time for some of you!). When you get bored, take a break or switch characters. I run a heroic TR and it's fun because it's been a couple of months since I've seen the heroic quests... I run 2-3 epic TRs (easy to do without a lot of quest repeats with first-time bonuses), and then I usually go back to heroic, and usually switch to an alt too to switch it up even further.

I take breaks and play good single-player games on the PC (with actual endings!!), or First-Person-Shooters... My son and I got into Madden Ultimate Team on the XBOX One for a few months, playing other people around the world, and building our team up. Clash of Clan wars on my phone is a fun diversion. I still play DDO 5-10 hours every week, but it is never a grind. It was always fun to log back on. Sometimes I get into a DDO mind-set, and play only it for 2-3 weeks straight, then I start to get tired of it, and it feels grindy, and SO I STOP and take a break for a bit.

I don't have a heroic completionist, or even an epic completionist (I'm getting close to an epic completionist with one guy though). I'm still missing plenty end-game gear... But the game is still fun for me, because I DO NOT GRIND.

People who complain about grind should stop grinding. How is this hard? DDO should only be part of your video game library, not your whole life.


i often agree with what you say, and I do here as well.

Me personally? i've been playing Destiny (Which is fulfilling my need to grind loot, that DDO just doesn't provide anymore) and have been enjoying the Witcher 3 as well.

The problem has been the DDO devs have put the game squarely in the hands of those who do grind the game. Thus, when I do take a break and come back, I find my characters falling farther and farther behind, player power getting too much and content then becoming too easy. Whether it's actually true or not, its a negative perception that negatively affects my (and i'm sure others) desire to log on. Nothing ruins a play experience like watching some Paladin/X/X build just destroy a dungeon on EE and then you feel bad when your character with a fraction of the gear and past lives dies. I'm not saying casuals should have things handed to us, we don't want that, however I do want a game to be realistic in time commitment and throw those of us with less time a chance to "keep" up (without paying to win). Again lowering Epic and even heroic TR amounts would go a long way in helping this, more players can get the goodies, feel more competent in the game and the devs can start making content that actually requires skill and team work and not just the newest flavor of the month as they swing things wildly with their 'class passes' (which by and large are good for the game). Give us more classes, more races, more content. Less Grind.

i'm getting sick of typing it and I'm sure others are getting sick of reading it, but DDO needs to go back to its roots and tackle the grind. Less Grind, more Fun. I can't say it enough.

This shouldn't be taken as i hate the game or I'm bored, I do still do enjoy playing, but I think the game needs to make changes to keep going.

Vargouille
10-30-2015, 01:43 PM
We'll have more to discuss on this in coming weeks. Some level 30 topics are currently being discussed by Player's Council (though we haven't got everything out to them yet!)


If the original plan of 3 million extra XP needed

There is no "original plan" of 3 million extra XP. We don't expect level 30 to require 10 million total Epic XP.


Am I the only one noticing Severlin saying that true reincarnation (as opposed to epic reincarnation) is being bumped up to level 30? Was this a typo Sev or is it really TR going from 20 to 30?

Heroic True Reincarnation won't be affected. Iconic True Reincarnation and Epic Reincarnation would be affected.

The discount since Update 20, being temporarily reach only the lower level cap of 28, is going up to level 30 as originally planned1. Since Update 20, there's been quite a lot more epic quests added to the game, making getting to 28 (and beyond) easier to reach than ever before. It's probably beyond time to raise the cap to 30 as previously planned (but we've had many things we wanted to do first!)



Some may call this "spin", but that's how it was originally and always planned. Calling this a punishment reasonably reflects current feelings and is certainly fine feedback - and comments about it being harder to know this from just being in game is good feedback as well, though we tried to be careful to say "level cap" and not "level 28" in the in-game text, as far as I know. Reaching only level 28 was always intended as pre-emptive easing of the Epic Reincarnation loop until we put in more quests, even beyond level 28 (which has happened since Update 20).

Qhualor
10-30-2015, 01:51 PM
We'll have more to discuss on this in coming weeks. Some level 30 topics are currently being discussed by Player's Council (though we haven't got everything out to them yet!)

Heroic True Reincarnation won't be affected. Iconic True Reincarnation and Epic Reincarnation would be affected.

The discount since Update 20, being temporarily reach only the lower level cap of 28, is going up to level 30 as originally planned1. Since Update 20, there's been quite a lot more epic quests added to the game, making getting to 28 (and beyond) easier to reach than ever before. It's probably beyond time to raise the cap to 30 as previously planned (but we've had many things we wanted to do first!)



Some may call this "spin", but that's how it was originally and always planned. Calling this a punishment reasonably reflects current feelings and is certainly fine feedback - and comments about it being harder to know this from just being in game is good feedback as well, though we tried to be careful to say "level cap" and not "level 28" in the in-game text, as far as I know. Reaching only level 28 was always intended as pre-emptive easing of the Epic Reincarnation loop until we put in more quests, even beyond level 28 (which has happened since Update 20).


My biggest worry is Iconics. They have 5 heroic levels plus, soon, 10 epic levels. Pointing out the obvious, ER has 10 epic levels and TR has 20 heroic levels. Not trying to say it should be based on levels, I'm just too lazy to look up the exact xp numbers for comparison. I think Iconics should be taken into consideration for how much xp is needed to cap since they currently need more xp than the others do.

Edit: I just thought of a good reason why Iconics should have to earn more xp than ERs and TRs. I'll wait and see what the changes look like or I get a response to my post.

Systern
10-30-2015, 02:18 PM
My biggest worry is Iconics. They have 5 heroic levels plus, soon, 10 epic levels. Pointing out the obvious, ER has 10 epic levels and TR has 20 heroic levels. Not trying to say it should be based on levels, I'm just too lazy to look up the exact xp numbers for comparison. I think Iconics should be taken into consideration for how much xp is needed to cap since they currently need more xp than the others do.

Edit: I just thought of a good reason why Iconics should have to earn more xp than ERs and TRs. I'll wait and see what the changes look like or I get a response to my post.

If you play a heroic character, and TR at 20, you get 1 past Life.
If you play any epic character, and ER back to 20, you get 1 past life.
If you play a heroic character, and go to cap and ER + TR, you get 2 past lives.
If you play an Iconic, and TR at cap, you get 2 past lives.

Starting at Level 15 is more than half the XP needed to get to 20 on any champion/heroic/legend life. Iconics provide more benefit for less XP than any other character life.

Edit: The XP for Level 15 -
First Life - 1,050,000
Second Life - 1,575,000
Further Lives - 2,100,000

For level 20:
First Life - 1,900,000
Second Life - 2,850,000
Further Lives - 3,800,000

Grosbeak07
10-30-2015, 02:21 PM
We'll have more to discuss on this in coming weeks. Some level 30 topics are currently being discussed by Player's Council (though we haven't got everything out to them yet!)



There is no "original plan" of 3 million extra XP. We don't expect level 30 to require 10 million total Epic XP.



Heroic True Reincarnation won't be affected. Iconic True Reincarnation and Epic Reincarnation would be affected.

The discount since Update 20, being temporarily reach only the lower level cap of 28, is going up to level 30 as originally planned1. Since Update 20, there's been quite a lot more epic quests added to the game, making getting to 28 (and beyond) easier to reach than ever before. It's probably beyond time to raise the cap to 30 as previously planned (but we've had many things we wanted to do first!)



Some may call this "spin", but that's how it was originally and always planned. Calling this a punishment reasonably reflects current feelings and is certainly fine feedback - and comments about it being harder to know this from just being in game is good feedback as well, though we tried to be careful to say "level cap" and not "level 28" in the in-game text, as far as I know. Reaching only level 28 was always intended as pre-emptive easing of the Epic Reincarnation loop until we put in more quests, even beyond level 28 (which has happened since Update 20).



While this was likely never stated on the forums, the big reason for Reincarnation in the 1st place was to give players something to do BETWEEN content updates. However over time, this has gotted corrupted where content updates are something we are now doing BETWEEN TR's.

This needs to be brought into consideration. TR'ing was introduced to the game when there wasn't really enough content (at any level pretty much) as a way to keep players engaged until more was produced. Now as we reach the end of character vertical progression (from here on out, it should be horizontal, meaning more classes, PRE's and Races etc.), its really time to reduce this grind and get people actually playing content again.

Players may be running your content, but they are not "playing".

Less Grind, More Fun

/peace

Failedlegend
10-30-2015, 03:06 PM
While this was likely never stated on the forums, the big reason for Reincarnation in the 1st place was to give players something to do BETWEEN content updates. However over time, this has gotted corrupted where content updates are something we are now doing BETWEEN TR's.

This needs to be brought into consideration. TR'ing was introduced to the game when there wasn't really enough content (at any level pretty much) as a way to keep players engaged until more was produced. Now as we reach the end of character vertical progression (from here on out, it should be horizontal, meaning more classes, PRE's and Races etc.), its really time to reduce this grind and get people actually playing content again.

Players may be running your content, but they are not "playing".

Less Grind, More Fun

/peace

TRing is only a grind if you make it one...ive tr'd a bunch of times but only because I wanted to try something new and found that extra stat points and PL feat to be useful and most of the time I had tired of the build I was playing otherwise I just roll a new character.

Nearly every other MMO out there focuses almost entirely on endgame content and PvP DDO continues to support all levels of play which supports the TR system and refuses to add PvP to avoid the negative atmosphere that tends to cause both of whoch make the game more inviting to new players. This is imho a much superior way to do things. Unfortunately stuff like bravery bonus have ruined alot of that since the majority of players refuse to do anything but...I hope when reaper difficulty comes out they irradiated the BBC since its no longer needed for its original purpose.

Qhualor
10-30-2015, 03:39 PM
If you play a heroic character, and TR at 20, you get 1 past Life.
If you play any epic character, and ER back to 20, you get 1 past life.
If you play a heroic character, and go to cap and ER + TR, you get 2 past lives.
If you play an Iconic, and TR at cap, you get 2 past lives.

Starting at Level 15 is more than half the XP needed to get to 20 on any champion/heroic/legend life. Iconics provide more benefit for less XP than any other character life.

Edit: The XP for Level 15 -
First Life - 1,050,000
Second Life - 1,575,000
Further Lives - 2,100,000

For level 20:
First Life - 1,900,000
Second Life - 2,850,000
Further Lives - 3,800,000

Yep, that's why I edited my post. Iconics provide a 2 for 1 deal and I'm OK with them requiring a little more xp.

Augon
10-30-2015, 04:01 PM
While this was likely never stated on the forums, the big reason for Reincarnation in the 1st place was to give players something to do BETWEEN content updates. However over time, this has gotted corrupted where content updates are something we are now doing BETWEEN TR's.

This needs to be brought into consideration. TR'ing was introduced to the game when there wasn't really enough content (at any level pretty much) as a way to keep players engaged until more was produced. Now as we reach the end of character vertical progression (from here on out, it should be horizontal, meaning more classes, PRE's and Races etc.), its really time to reduce this grind and get people actually playing content again.


I would be curious to know how you know the reason that TRing was added to the game if it was not mentioned in the forums. I'm not being snarky or rude here. I am really curious. When I joined it was already part of the game and since this is the only MMO I've ever played I assumed it was a common thing. It was much later that I found out that other MMOs didn't have it and I wondered why not. I love the concept. I see you have been with the game for a long time and would have been around when it happened, so I am curious, if they didn't say so in the forums, how did you discover that the Devs created TRing for the reason you stated?

Although, while I am curious about it, I don't see how it applies today. There are a lot of players that have never played this game when TRing didn't exist and there are a lot of players (like me) that really like it. It's not clear to me if you are suggesting that they remove TRing from the game. IF so, I am not in favor of that no matter what content is produced.



Players may be running your content, but they are not "playing".

Less Grind, More Fun

/peace

I don't grind. I hate grinding. I play. I don't have as good a gear as some of my friends because I wont grind it out. But I have some good gear cause I play a lot of content. I have friends who like the grinding out of stuff. (I know - crazy! right?) I do not. I just play the game and the questing is what is fun for me. I really do not understand why anyone would grind if they do not like it. There is nothing in this game that makes it a requirement to grind content. I know folks will say, "But if you want the best stuff you HAVE to grind" - its a choice you make. You don't HAVE to have the best stuff on every character. You can choose to grind and get lots of good stuff or you can choose to not grind and have less good stuff. And the one with less good stuff can still play the game fine (and probably have more fun doing it).

In short, if you don't want to grind, don't. Just play to have fun. There is nothing the Devs need to do to make this happen.

Augon
10-30-2015, 04:06 PM
This would be a good time to tweak ER + HTR in my opinion.

Currently, if you hit 28 and want to TR back to 1, you have to do a full ER and then a full HTR.

I was thinking they should come up with a new TR option, Epic True Reincarnate)

It would be similar in some respects to ITR in that you would get two feats (an Epic feat and a Heroic feat) and I think it could require a new type of HoW that could be purchaed for a Heroic HoW and an Epic HoW. This way the cost is the same but the process could be much faster.

Gljosh
10-30-2015, 04:08 PM
My biggest worry is Iconics. They have 5 heroic levels plus, soon, 10 epic levels. Pointing out the obvious, ER has 10 epic levels and TR has 20 heroic levels. Not trying to say it should be based on levels, I'm just too lazy to look up the exact xp numbers for comparison. I think Iconics should be taken into consideration for how much xp is needed to cap since they currently need more xp than the others do.

Edit: I just thought of a good reason why Iconics should have to earn more xp than ERs and TRs. I'll wait and see what the changes look like or I get a response to my post.


If you play a heroic character, and TR at 20, you get 1 past Life.
If you play any epic character, and ER back to 20, you get 1 past life.
If you play a heroic character, and go to cap and ER + TR, you get 2 past lives.
If you play an Iconic, and TR at cap, you get 2 past lives.

Starting at Level 15 is more than half the XP needed to get to 20 on any champion/heroic/legend life. Iconics provide more benefit for less XP than any other character life.

Edit: The XP for Level 15 -
First Life - 1,050,000
Second Life - 1,575,000
Further Lives - 2,100,000

For level 20:
First Life - 1,900,000
Second Life - 2,850,000
Further Lives - 3,800,000

Currently it is 10.4 million for a Heroic and ETR (600k "wasted") and 8.3 million for an Iconic. Both would grant a Heroic Passive bonus, another passive bonus (Divine ETRs and PDK are the same), and a stance (1 per Epic Sphere {total of 4) or 1 Iconic {can only have 1 active}).

"Future" (I will use 10 million for final Epic number-easier math), 13.8 million for a Heroic and ETR (4 million "wasted") and 11.7 million for an Iconic. Some of the complaints are that "we will/might need more xp to get the same thing now with less xp," and the "wasted xp."

Also, whenever, I see people say "just play another game for a while". Some people do just that, cancel their VIP, and never come back. I do agree that the "change this and/or I quit" group could use a small cool off period.

Maybe DDO could put in a qfg style Wizards Maze? I small fun game within the game or monster/creature companion breeding- I read about quite a few games almost dedicated to this.

Grosbeak07
10-30-2015, 04:49 PM
I would be curious to know how you know the reason that TRing was added to the game if it was not mentioned in the forums. I'm not being snarky or rude here. I am really curious. When I joined it was already part of the game and since this is the only MMO I've ever played I assumed it was a common thing. It was much later that I found out that other MMOs didn't have it and I wondered why not. I love the concept. I see you have been with the game for a long time and would have been around when it happened, so I am curious, if they didn't say so in the forums, how did you discover that the Devs created TRing for the reason you stated?

Although, while I am curious about it, I don't see how it applies today. There are a lot of players that have never played this game when TRing didn't exist and there are a lot of players (like me) that really like it. It's not clear to me if you are suggesting that they remove TRing from the game. IF so, I am not in favor of that no matter what content is produced.

To be clear I'm not in favor of removing TR'ing, I do it, but i find the process dull. I also "feel" like I have to do it, in order to keep up to the standards I enjoy playing. In the past I could make a character, gear it out and play end game, now I feel like if I don't have X amount of past lives, i'm behind. I would like to see TR'ing changed from being the primary form of 'end game" as it is now, to one where Content is #1 at the highest levels.

As for my comments about why TR'ing was invented, TR'ing came in late 2009, just after the game went free to play. With DDO Unlimited, the only high end quests was Amarath, which after a year of no content thanks to a long running law suit and other problems, wasn't much, even if they were good quests (and challenging at the time!). The Devs at that time as part of the re-launch of DDO and the sudden influx of new players, concentrated the next several updates primarily on the lower and mid levels. This gave people 2 options, either TR at level 20 or Run Epics, which were not easy. Of course that all changed with MoTU, which added epic levels etc. But that took 2.5 years of an anemic amount of high level content, making TR'ing about the only thing for people to do. It bought the developers time.






I don't grind. I hate grinding. I play. I don't have as good a gear as some of my friends because I wont grind it out. But I have some good gear cause I play a lot of content. I have friends who like the grinding out of stuff. (I know - crazy! right?) I do not. I just play the game and the questing is what is fun for me. I really do not understand why anyone would grind if they do not like it. There is nothing in this game that makes it a requirement to grind content. I know folks will say, "But if you want the best stuff you HAVE to grind" - its a choice you make. You don't HAVE to have the best stuff on every character. You can choose to grind and get lots of good stuff or you can choose to not grind and have less good stuff. And the one with less good stuff can still play the game fine (and probably have more fun doing it).

In short, if you don't want to grind, don't. Just play to have fun. There is nothing the Devs need to do to make this happen.

I hate grinding and i still play. I don't do it either.

My problem I think really boils down to the idea that I I have no option to make my character "as good" (note: not the same!) as another, because I don't have the time. Gear helps, but doesn't compare to someone who has stacks upon stacks of Past Lives.

To me the solution is easing the (time) requirements to achieve past lives by lowering the amount of xp needed for both Heroic and Epic TR's. They lowered the heroic already once, i'd like to see that 3rd tier go away.

I know that the marketing back in 2006 that portrayed this game as the anti-grind, has become nothing but grind argument has gone out the window long ago, but I would like to see the game shift back towards that idea.

Qaliya
10-30-2015, 04:50 PM
Egads, you people do this to yourselves.

Why would you continue to play if it was so terrible? My TRs have been a lot of fun... because I don't grind. You blame the devs for making the game unfun? There is no game you could play for hours a day, every day, for years, and not start to get bored.

So you switch it up... Don't play the same game every day... Don't try to do a TR in a week (or even less time for some of you!). When you get bored, take a break or switch characters. I run a heroic TR and it's fun because it's been a couple of months since I've seen the heroic quests... I run 2-3 epic TRs (easy to do without a lot of quest repeats with first-time bonuses), and then I usually go back to heroic, and usually switch to an alt too to switch it up even further.

I take breaks and play good single-player games on the PC (with actual endings!!), or First-Person-Shooters... My son and I got into Madden Ultimate Team on the XBOX One for a few months, playing other people around the world, and building our team up. Clash of Clan wars on my phone is a fun diversion. I still play DDO 5-10 hours every week, but it is never a grind. It was always fun to log back on. Sometimes I get into a DDO mind-set, and play only it for 2-3 weeks straight, then I start to get tired of it, and it feels grindy, and SO I STOP and take a break for a bit.

I don't have a heroic completionist, or even an epic completionist (I'm getting close to an epic completionist with one guy though). I'm still missing plenty end-game gear... But the game is still fun for me, because I DO NOT GRIND.

People who complain about grind should stop grinding. How is this hard? DDO should only be part of your video game library, not your whole life.

This should be bronzed and pinned at the top of this forum, but instead it will be mostly ignored.

Grosbeak07
10-30-2015, 04:51 PM
This would be a good time to tweak ER + HTR in my opinion.

Currently, if you hit 28 and want to TR back to 1, you have to do a full ER and then a full HTR.

I was thinking they should come up with a new TR option, Epic True Reincarnate)

It would be similar in some respects to ITR in that you would get two feats (an Epic feat and a Heroic feat) and I think it could require a new type of HoW that could be purchaed for a Heroic HoW and an Epic HoW. This way the cost is the same but the process could be much faster.

If you would allow any race to start at Level 15 with this idea, i'd be 100% ok with it. it's a solid compromise to what i've been kvetching about.

SoulDuster
10-30-2015, 06:13 PM
To be clear I'm not in favor of removing TR'ing, I do it, but i find the process dull. I also "feel" like I have to do it, in order to keep up to the standards I enjoy playing. In the past I could make a character, gear it out and play end game, now I feel like if I don't have X amount of past lives, i'm behind. I would like to see TR'ing changed from being the primary form of 'end game" as it is now, to one where Content is #1 at the highest levels.

As for my comments about why TR'ing was invented, TR'ing came in late 2009, just after the game went free to play. With DDO Unlimited, the only high end quests was Amarath, which after a year of no content thanks to a long running law suit and other problems, wasn't much, even if they were good quests (and challenging at the time!). The Devs at that time as part of the re-launch of DDO and the sudden influx of new players, concentrated the next several updates primarily on the lower and mid levels. This gave people 2 options, either TR at level 20 or Run Epics, which were not easy. Of course that all changed with MoTU, which added epic levels etc. But that took 2.5 years of an anemic amount of high level content, making TR'ing about the only thing for people to do. It bought the developers time.






I hate grinding and i still play. I don't do it either.

My problem I think really boils down to the idea that I I have no option to make my character "as good" (note: not the same!) as another, because I don't have the time. Gear helps, but doesn't compare to someone who has stacks upon stacks of Past Lives.

To me the solution is easing the (time) requirements to achieve past lives by lowering the amount of xp needed for both Heroic and Epic TR's. They lowered the heroic already once, i'd like to see that 3rd tier go away.

I know that the marketing back in 2006 that portrayed this game as the anti-grind, has become nothing but grind argument has gone out the window long ago, but I would like to see the game shift back towards that idea.


LOLz lower the xp curve some more so what do all the players who ground out those past lives at 4.3 and 3.8 million xp get in return for making it easier for you to obtain the same PL. Go buy some Otto's boxes and 50 pots I have plenty of first life toons that are doing just fine in heroics and epics play your role and learn how to play your game the person behind the keyboard can make all the difference in the world.

Maybe Turbine can offer a few new Character starting options

Heroic Completionist - 74k TP that looks about right 15x4900tp per life

Iconic Completionist - 125k TP

Heroic 3x - 200k TP

Iconic 3x 300k TP

Epic Completionist - 12 past lives 1.2 mil TP

Epic x 3 - 36 past lives 3.6 mil TP

Sounds fair to me

maybe put green steel weapons seals shard scrolls epic items all named quest loot heck just put anything you want on the DDO store just spend so TP getting it all....


Perfect P2W end game

Grosbeak07
10-30-2015, 06:32 PM
LOLz lower the xp curve some more so what do all the players who ground out those past lives at 4.3 and 3.8 million xp get in return for making it easier for you to obtain the same PL. Go buy some Otto's boxes and 50 pots I have plenty of first life toons that are doing just fine in heroics and epics play your role and learn how to play your game the person behind the keyboard can make all the difference in the world.

Maybe Turbine can offer a few new Character starting options

Heroic Completionist - 74k TP that looks about right 15x4900tp per life

Iconic Completionist - 125k TP

Heroic 3x - 200k TP

Iconic 3x 300k TP

Epic Completionist - 12 past lives 1.2 mil TP

Epic x 3 - 36 past lives 3.6 mil TP

Sounds fair to me

maybe put green steel weapons seals shard scrolls epic items all named quest loot heck just put anything you want on the DDO store just spend so TP getting it all....


Perfect P2W end game

You didn't read anything. But thanks for the laugh.

SoulDuster
10-30-2015, 06:52 PM
You didn't read anything. But thanks for the laugh.

QUOTE

I hate grinding and i still play. I don't do it either.

My problem I think really boils down to the idea that I I have no option to make my character "as good" (note: not the same!) as another, because I don't have the time. Gear helps, but doesn't compare to someone who has stacks upon stacks of Past Lives.

To me the solution is easing the (time) requirements to achieve past lives by lowering the amount of xp needed for both Heroic and Epic TR's. They lowered the heroic already once, i'd like to see that 3rd tier go away.

I know that the marketing back in 2006 that portrayed this game as the anti-grind, has become nothing but grind argument has gone out the window long ago, but I would like to see the game shift back towards that idea.




What can't I read. Your statement not mine.......

You are discounting all of my achievements and want took me considerable time and effort to achieve by making it easier than ever to do the same things.

No one makes this game a grind other than the person grinding on it. You don't like the grind I don't like the Whine. Go get some cheese to go with your whine.

Solution Remove all xp bonus items no more ottos no more xp pots or bonus xp go earn it and learn how to play you must be one of the younger generation that is entitled at birth. No work ethic no backbone and no ability to earn or obtain something for yourself. Gimme Gimme Gimme

Good thing I dont set the xp curve 5mil heroic 10mil epic end of story. go play WoW


Better idea yet

New Turbine Server

Whine to Win --- Send all you I want it easier and you can run Casual quests on Heroic and Epic all day and night forget xp just make your toon a Demi-God at inception

jalont
10-30-2015, 07:09 PM
Yep, that's why I edited my post. Iconics provide a 2 for 1 deal and I'm OK with them requiring a little more xp.

Never mind the fact that going 15-28 is much faster than going 1-20, and I assme 15-30 will be much faster as well.

SoulDuster
10-30-2015, 07:14 PM
Never mind the fact that going 15-28 is much faster than going 1-20, and I assme 15-30 will be much faster as well.



15-28 3 days

15-30 5 days

1-20 first life hours second life a day 3rd life 3 days

xp is free in ddo gobs and gobs of xp learn how to grab it and take it just that simple

Qhualor
10-30-2015, 07:19 PM
Never mind the fact that going 15-28 is much faster than going 1-20, and I assme 15-30 will be much faster as well.

that would depend on individual players. for me, i can go from 1-20 or 15-28 in about the same time. the difference is in heroics i one and done soloing most of the way to 20. from 20-28 im jumping from lfm to lfm doing whatever quest once per day. i have no idea what the epic xp will look like, but i would imagine an extra 2 levels might take a tad longer than right now.

Grosbeak07
10-30-2015, 07:31 PM
QUOTE

I hate grinding and i still play. I don't do it either.

My problem I think really boils down to the idea that I I have no option to make my character "as good" (note: not the same!) as another, because I don't have the time. Gear helps, but doesn't compare to someone who has stacks upon stacks of Past Lives.

To me the solution is easing the (time) requirements to achieve past lives by lowering the amount of xp needed for both Heroic and Epic TR's. They lowered the heroic already once, i'd like to see that 3rd tier go away.

I know that the marketing back in 2006 that portrayed this game as the anti-grind, has become nothing but grind argument has gone out the window long ago, but I would like to see the game shift back towards that idea.




What can't I read. Your statement not mine.......

You are discounting all of my achievements and want took me considerable time and effort to achieve by making it easier than ever to do the same things.

No one makes this game a grind other than the person grinding on it. You don't like the grind I don't like the Whine. Go get some cheese to go with your whine.

Solution Remove all xp bonus items no more ottos no more xp pots or bonus xp go earn it and learn how to play you must be one of the younger generation that is entitled at birth. No work ethic no backbone and no ability to earn or obtain something for yourself. Gimme Gimme Gimme

Good thing I dont set the xp curve 5mil heroic 10mil epic end of story. go play WoW


Better idea yet

New Turbine Server

Whine to Win --- Send all you I want it easier and you can run Casual quests on Heroic and Epic all day and night forget xp just make your toon a Demi-God at inception

Sorry, I'm not following.

I assume you are trying to belittle or mock me, yet I haven't advocated for any of the gibberish above.

And no, I am not of the "younger" generation.

But thank you for trying. I guess i should feel honored your mighty in game achievements are threatened by this filthy casual.

Bottom ilne, Devs don't care what I think or what you think. They will do whatever it is they are going to do. I've said my piece, liked some other alternative suggestions and that's enough.

RobbinB
10-30-2015, 07:45 PM
No it was always suppose to be xp cap and that shouldn't change

No, it might have been planned originally to increase once the xp cap changed, but given the long time that the cap has been 28 it doesn't make logical sense to do this any longer. Newer players to the game shouldn't have to work significantly harder to get their epic tr's done. Sticking to the original plan is not sensible and creates bad will between players and devs.

RobbinB
10-30-2015, 07:51 PM
they stated right from the start when the cap was raised you would have to be cap'd to ETR it has been a known fact since ETR existed and its also know that more levels should take more xp

And right from the start I stated and have continued to state that that was a bad plan and would create bad will between devs and players when it happened. ETR can be allowed at level 28 while still making players get xp if they wnat to reach levels 29 and 30.

Qhualor
10-30-2015, 07:58 PM
No, it might have been planned originally to increase once the xp cap changed, but given the long time that the cap has been 28 it doesn't make logical sense to do this any longer. Newer players to the game shouldn't have to work significantly harder to get their epic tr's done. Sticking to the original plan is not sensible and creates bad will between players and devs.

how do newer players work harder for past lives when it would be viewed as normal to them? honestly i think ER shouldn't have been possible until level 30 was firmly in place. for that matter i still have issues with epic past lives since you don't do an actual reincarnation and i stated that back in the beginning.

RobbinB
10-30-2015, 08:00 PM
If you still allow people to etr at 28, then don't even bother creating "endgame" content. No one is going to the new content, and no one is going to ever take levels 29 and 30.

Not true. Keep the "Epic" cap at level 28. Make levels 29 and 30 (and any they want to introduced after that) part of "mythic" levels. Make that xp a one time thing, ie if you level to 30, then epic TR, once you have returned to 28 you go straight to 30. No Mythic TR merry-go-round either. There's been enough of that.

Have xp gained at the new 30+ cap go to small "bonuses" that aren't tied into levels at all, thereby one never feels xp is "wasted" playing on a capped toon compared to an uncapped one.

SoulDuster
10-30-2015, 08:10 PM
No, it might have been planned originally to increase once the xp cap changed, but given the long time that the cap has been 28 it doesn't make logical sense to do this any longer. Newer players to the game shouldn't have to work significantly harder to get their epic tr's done. Sticking to the original plan is not sensible and creates bad will between players and devs.


Does that mean when a new class is added I should keep my Completionist feat Sniffle Sniffle

Lmao Levels go up xp goes up no bad blood between devs and players just devs and the rest

Would love to see some Mythic Reincarnations added to the cycle

SoulDuster
10-30-2015, 08:23 PM
Sorry, I'm not following.

I assume you are trying to belittle or mock me, yet I haven't advocated for any of the gibberish above.

And no, I am not of the "younger" generation.

But thank you for trying. I guess i should feel honored your mighty in game achievements are threatened by this filthy casual.

Bottom ilne, Devs don't care what I think or what you think. They will do whatever it is they are going to do. I've said my piece, liked some other alternative suggestions and that's enough.

No need to belittle anyone its just to bad you don't put the same amount of effort into improving your toon as you do into your making the game easier. I have never felt threatened in my entire life least of all by someone who needs the xp curve lowered to achieve anything in this game. I play with all kinds of players from rookies to elitist players far beyond my abilities however I try to learn what I can from each and everyone of those players I group with. All the Devs care what we think or this forum would not exist at all. I doubt a Dev decides what is going to or not going to happen in any given situation. I am sure a board of directors much like in any corporate structure make most of those calls and the Devs do their job and execute them to the best of their ability.

If your not of the younger generation then MAN UP and Learn how to play

esojiul
10-30-2015, 09:30 PM
QUOTE

I hate grinding and i still play. I don't do it either.

My problem I think really boils down to the idea that I I have no option to make my character "as good" (note: not the same!) as another, because I don't have the time. Gear helps, but doesn't compare to someone who has stacks upon stacks of Past Lives.

To me the solution is easing the (time) requirements to achieve past lives by lowering the amount of xp needed for both Heroic and Epic TR's. They lowered the heroic already once, i'd like to see that 3rd tier go away.

I know that the marketing back in 2006 that portrayed this game as the anti-grind, has become nothing but grind argument has gone out the window long ago, but I would like to see the game shift back towards that idea.




What can't I read. Your statement not mine.......

You are discounting all of my achievements and want took me considerable time and effort to achieve by making it easier than ever to do the same things.

No one makes this game a grind other than the person grinding on it. You don't like the grind I don't like the Whine. Go get some cheese to go with your whine.

Solution Remove all xp bonus items no more ottos no more xp pots or bonus xp go earn it and learn how to play you must be one of the younger generation that is entitled at birth. No work ethic no backbone and no ability to earn or obtain something for yourself. Gimme Gimme Gimme

Good thing I dont set the xp curve 5mil heroic 10mil epic end of story. go play WoW


Better idea yet

New Turbine Server

Whine to Win --- Send all you I want it easier and you can run Casual quests on Heroic and Epic all day and night forget xp just make your toon a Demi-God at inception

Fair, but the value it unfair to people who spend time on the game, to get complesionist. The could be the values

Heroic Completionist - 1,000,000 TP

Iconic Completionist - 1,000,000 TP

Heroic 3x - 480,000 TP

Iconic 3x 480000 TP

Epic Completionist - 1,200,000 TP

gphysalis
10-30-2015, 10:14 PM
While this was likely never stated on the forums, the big reason for Reincarnation in the 1st place was to give players something to do BETWEEN content updates. However over time, this has gotted corrupted where content updates are something we are now doing BETWEEN TR's.

This needs to be brought into consideration. TR'ing was introduced to the game when there wasn't really enough content (at any level pretty much) as a way to keep players engaged until more was produced. Now as we reach the end of character vertical progression (from here on out, it should be horizontal, meaning more classes, PRE's and Races etc.), its really time to reduce this grind and get people actually playing content again.

Players may be running your content, but they are not "playing".

Less Grind, More Fun

/peace

I have seen an idea suggested before that XP give people benefits when gained at cap. This could make an interesting choice between staying at cap and TRing.
Possibly something like this could be from epic greensteel

Epic Living Greensteel Helm of Toughness:
+HP
1Mxp = 1hp
3Mxp = 2hp
...

Jasparion
10-31-2015, 01:41 AM
While it shouldnt take a massive amount it should take more xp to gain 2 more levels

I agree. It has been mentioned that there is lots of new content so levelling is fine. Here is the question: what percentage of people run the new content when levelling, and what percentage run the same handful of dungeons over and over?

That said, 7.5 million XP to level 30 seems reasonable. A bit more XP for a couple more levels. Should be smoothed out too so that 20 to 21 is a bit less than 29 to 30 - but not massively less.

RobbinB
10-31-2015, 02:27 AM
Does that mean when a new class is added I should keep my Completionist feat Sniffle Sniffle

Lmao Levels go up xp goes up no bad blood between devs and players just devs and the rest

Would love to see some Mythic Reincarnations added to the cycle

Nope. Grandfathering completionist for those who already have it is unfair to the new players who would have to complete additional classes, just like making new players earn more xp for the same epic completionist is unfair. But thanks for making my point for me.

And please kill me before adding Mythic Reincarnations.

Axeyu
10-31-2015, 03:36 AM
wow. What a complete non-issue.

Uska
10-31-2015, 09:14 AM
No, it might have been planned originally to increase once the xp cap changed, but given the long time that the cap has been 28 it doesn't make logical sense to do this any longer. Newer players to the game shouldn't have to work significantly harder to get their epic tr's done. Sticking to the original plan is not sensible and creates bad will between players and devs.

Why does having the cap at 28 so long make it logical to keep ETR there that makes zero sense and sticking to original plan is the only thing that does make sense and yes new players should have to work harder if the goal has been set further,


No I don't have epic completionist I play for fun not to grind nobody has to have past lives but if they want them they should ear them

Uska
10-31-2015, 09:20 AM
Not true. Keep the "Epic" cap at level 28. Make levels 29 and 30 (and any they want to introduced after that) part of "mythic" levels. Make that xp a one time thing, ie if you level to 30, then epic TR, once you have returned to 28 you go straight to 30. No Mythic TR merry-go-round either. There's been enough of that.

Have xp gained at the new 30+ cap go to small "bonuses" that aren't tied into levels at all, thereby one never feels xp is "wasted" playing on a capped toon compared to an uncapped one.


If 28 is ETR point then they shouldn't add 29 and 30 and your instant bump to 30 from 28 after doing it once is terrible

nubbinns
10-31-2015, 01:48 PM
No I don't have epic completionist I play for fun not to grind nobody has to have past lives but if they want them they should ear them

Right, everyone should play like you do. Except that in this case you don't even play for epic lives, so you just want people to play the way you think they should play. Seems legit. Spam this thread more, please.

Uska
10-31-2015, 02:51 PM
Right, everyone should play like you do. Except that in this case you don't even play for epic lives, so you just want people to play the way you think they should play. Seems legit. Spam this thread more, please.

Wrong I want them to play the way devs intend others don't want to be slowed down a bit in their quest for ever more power and that power increase is actually part of the problem with the game. They want changes done not me

Hmm account made this month and a personal attack possibly trying to bait a response worth an infraction

RobbinB
10-31-2015, 04:21 PM
Why does having the cap at 28 so long make it logical to keep ETR there that makes zero sense and sticking to original plan is the only thing that does make sense and yes new players should have to work harder if the goal has been set further,

The original plan does not make sense and it does make sense to leave the amount of xp needed to "earn" the right to epic TR the same as it has been since they introduced it.

Have you ever been part of a points program where lets say you need 80,000 points to get some reward that you are interested in, then when you are around 70,000 points they decide "we changed our minds and these rewards will now cost 150,000 points". The logical response isn't "ok, no problem. I guess I'll just have to wait 3 more years to get the reward I had almost earned."


No I don't have epic completionist I play for fun not to grind nobody has to have past lives but if they want them they should ear them

So up to this date all the people who have been epic tr'ing at 28 haven't really "earned" those past lives?

Uska
10-31-2015, 04:25 PM
The original plan does not make sense and it does make sense to leave the amount of xp needed to "earn" the right to epic TR the same as it has been since they introduced it.

Have you ever been part of a points program where lets say you need 80,000 points to get some reward that you are interested in, then when you are around 70,000 points they decide "we changed our minds and these rewards will now cost 150,000 points". The logical response isn't "ok, no problem. I guess I'll just have to wait 3 more years to get the reward I had almost earned."



So up to this date all the people who have been epic tr'ing at 28 haven't really "earned" those past lives?

To much wrong to even comment

nubbinns
10-31-2015, 04:26 PM
Wrong I want them to play the way devs intend others don't want to be slowed down a bit in their quest for ever more power and that power increase is actually part of the problem with the game. They want changes done not me

Hmm account made this month and a personal attack possibly trying to bait a response worth an infraction

personal attack? are you okay?

So, you want people to play the way YOU think is right, even though you don't play that way? gotcha. Yeah, about that....

RobbinB
10-31-2015, 04:28 PM
If 28 is ETR point then they shouldn't add 29 and 30 and your instant bump to 30 from 28 after doing it once is terrible

Why can't they add 29 and 30 if ETR is at 28? It makes no sense to say that.

There's nothing wrong with having additional levels that simply have to be earned once. I would assume the xp needed wouldn't be trivial, and as I stated there should always be something to "do" with xp earned even when you are level capped (without having to undergo the TR merry-go-round).

What would be terrible is placing epic TR at 28, then having levels 29 and 30 (mythic), but making them need to be regained if you epic tr. This is bad design because it is not equivalent for someone who does all their epic TRs first, then proceeds to level 29 and 30 compared to someone who likes to do a single epic TR then hang out for awhile before starting their next epic TR.

RobbinB
10-31-2015, 04:39 PM
To much wrong to even comment

Option A: level cap increases to 30 and epic TR can't be done till you reach level 30
Option B: levels 29 and 30 are introduced, epic TR can still be done at 28

If all players in DDO had to vote on A versus B, then I would vote B. I don't think I would be the only one. Option A is an option and the devs can go ahead and do that but I think it will create bad will with a "significant" portion of the playerbase. That doesn't mean it would be the right or wrong choice, just that I'm not in favour and I think it's a bad choice. Saying Option B is "wrong" and makes no sense (like 2+2 = 5 or something) is not allowing for anyone else to have a different point of view from yours.

RobbinB
10-31-2015, 04:57 PM
While this was likely never stated on the forums, the big reason for Reincarnation in the 1st place was to give players something to do BETWEEN content updates. However over time, this has gotted corrupted where content updates are something we are now doing BETWEEN TR's.

This needs to be brought into consideration. TR'ing was introduced to the game when there wasn't really enough content (at any level pretty much) as a way to keep players engaged until more was produced. Now as we reach the end of character vertical progression (from here on out, it should be horizontal, meaning more classes, PRE's and Races etc.), its really time to reduce this grind and get people actually playing content again.

Players may be running your content, but they are not "playing".

Less Grind, More Fun

/peace

Just wanted to say that I have pointed out many times that back when reincarnation was introduced what myself (and I believe many others) were actually asking for is a chance to take our endgame toons and "try out" another class (or react to FOTM due to "balance changes", or whatever) by being able to relevel back to the current level with all new classes/race/feats/sex etc...

The reincarnation system that was introduced was surprising and in some ways brilliant but for myself I fell it never really gave us the original thing hoped for. And this has proven problematic since "balance changes" always leave people with FOTM (or simply older) builds with no way to quickly react to game changes. (Multiple lesser or full TR with need to relevel simply don't cut if for some peeps who are casual players.) If the concept is no one should be forced to play something unfun, then it only makes sense to let players be a single step away from "fixing" their toons based on the "current" game.

I do absolutely agree with you about reducing grind and it's for that reason I don't want epic TR to shift and I don't want new levels to have any hamster-wheel/re-earn levels mechanics. That's not to say that some people won't want those things, I'm just not one of them.

Uska
10-31-2015, 05:00 PM
Option A: level cap increases to 30 and epic TR can't be done till you reach level 30
Option B: levels 29 and 30 are introduced, epic TR can still be done at 28

If all players in DDO had to vote on A versus B, then I would vote B. I don't think I would be the only one. Option A is an option and the devs can go ahead and do that but I think it will create bad will with a "significant" portion of the playerbase. That doesn't mean it would be the right or wrong choice, just that I'm not in favour and I think it's a bad choice. Saying Option B is "wrong" and makes no sense (like 2+2 = 5 or something) is not allowing for anyone else to have a different point of view from yours.


You don't get to vote it's happening the only thing that isn't decided i's how much xp it will take but it will be more and if anyone quits over it good riddance don't need whiney babies like that around anyways

dontmater
10-31-2015, 05:47 PM
Im semi shocked they would use resources for the Etr change, unless it's something in the programming that makes it easier. glad i got mine done the first 3 weeks. (who are you?.. and why have you rung the bell?) still lingers in the back of my mind from those 3 weeks

SoulDuster
10-31-2015, 08:48 PM
Nope. Grandfathering completionist for those who already have it is unfair to the new players who would have to complete additional classes, just like making new players earn more xp for the same epic completionist is unfair. But thanks for making my point for me.

And please kill me before adding Mythic Reincarnations.


I agree completely on losing the feat once you use any form of Reincarnation at cap with the feat.

As far as new players joining the game later and having more xp to acquire epic completionist they have in my opinion be more than adequately compensated by having the xp required to achieve heroic completionist reduced by what 550k per life I have 42 lives at 4.3 mil each. So lets see

43 lives for heroic 3x completionist is 4.3785 mil or about 188 million xp on old xp curve

43 lives on new xp curve is 3.8 mil or about 164 million saving them what 26 million lets say 13.5% reduction in XP needed to achieve the same results

15 lives for heroic x1 Compltionist on old xp curve about 65 million xp

15 lives for heroic x1 on new xp curve is about 57 million xp lets say 13.5% reduction in xp needed to achieve the same results

12 ETR for epic completionist has been 12 lives at 6.6 mil xp lets say 80 million xp

12 ETR for epic compltionoist at for round numbers 7.5 mil xp is 90 million xp hmmm 13.5% increase in XP looks like a very fair trade off in XP to me

My math may not be spot on but it is close enough to show that new players have been more than compensated for joining the game late having some of the edges smoothed out by those of us who joined first. While the system is far from perfect it does seem to be pretty well balanced now by the new heroic and new epic TR xp requirements to me.

I for one give a resounding yes to the new Heroic and Epic XP requirements

Nachomammashouse
10-31-2015, 08:59 PM
We don't expect level 30 to require 10 million total Epic XP.

Keep the model of 10 mil to cap and just make the ER option remain a ML28 thing. Done.

Jasparion
10-31-2015, 10:32 PM
You don't get to vote it's happening the only thing that isn't decided i's how much xp it will take but it will be more and if anyone quits over it good riddance don't need whiney babies like that around anyways

I agree. The developers should continue to ignore the playerbase. That way the numbers can continue to decline and when there is only a few people left the game will be awesome.

No more pesky people giving opinions that differ.

Absolute bliss.

Uska
11-01-2015, 12:02 AM
Keep the model of 10 mil to cap and just make the ER option remain a ML28 thing. Done.

No there is zero point in going to,30 if it's not ER and that's what they said they were going to do

Uska
11-01-2015, 12:03 AM
I agree. The developers should continue to ignore the playerbase. That way the numbers can continue to decline and when there is only a few people left the game will be awesome.

No more pesky people giving opinions that differ.

Absolute bliss.

I bet nearly zero will quit

golruul
11-01-2015, 01:50 AM
You don't get to vote it's happening the only thing that isn't decided i's how much xp it will take but it will be more and if anyone quits over it good riddance don't need whiney babies like that around anyways

I do get to vote, although not the kind of vote you may expect. I, and others, can (and will) vote with our money. A player that spends $1k+ on a free-to-play game has a much, much more influential vote compared to a player that hasn't spent any money on that game. This is reality, and DDO (Turbine) is a business that needs to bring in revenue -- paying customers matter more.

Maybe the staff decides that more XP to ETR/ITR is best for the long-term. That's fine, as it's their call. However, I'm putting in my "vote" and letting them know this decision will cost them at least one consistent stream of revenue (i.e. subscription). What would be acceptable to me is some way of still ETR/ITR at 6 million (or 6.6 million, whatever it is) experience. There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread to make that happen. Heck, if they let VIPs ETR/ITR at 6 million XP as another VIP perk, that would be fine with me, too, but I suspect most won't like that.

As for your "whiney babies" comment, all of the replies I read that were directed at you were coherent, reasonable comments. You should look in the mirror before using that phrase for others.

Axeyu
11-01-2015, 02:29 AM
ETR at level 28 when the cap goes up to level 30 is a really bad idea. It will make it far too punishing to not ETR right away and will just further divide the playerbase between those who ETR and those who play at cap.

RobbinB
11-01-2015, 02:56 AM
ETR at level 28 when the cap goes up to level 30 is a really bad idea. It will make it far too punishing to not ETR right away and will just further divide the playerbase between those who ETR and those who play at cap.

That assumes any xp earned towards level 29 and 30 will be "lost" upon ETR to 20, which doesn't have to be the case (and shouldn't).

For those hung up on the idea "ETR must be at the Epic Cap" then fine, keep levels 20-28 epic, and simply introduce levels 29 and 30 as "mythic" or "legendary" or "tasty ham" or leave them unnamed. Whatever.

Axeyu
11-01-2015, 04:09 AM
That assumes any xp earned towards level 29 and 30 will be "lost" upon ETR to 20, which doesn't have to be the case (and shouldn't).

For those hung up on the idea "ETR must be at the Epic Cap" then fine, keep levels 20-28 epic, and simply introduce levels 29 and 30 as "mythic" or "legendary" or "tasty ham" or leave them unnamed. Whatever.

Arbitrary systems to solve non-issues is even worse.

Uska
11-01-2015, 07:23 AM
Either don't add the 2 levels and keep ETR at 28 or add them and move,it to 30 don't add another system

draven1
11-01-2015, 08:07 AM
We already have karma xp for ETR.
Just allow ETR when you have level 20+ and 6.6 million karma xp for 1 sphere. Keep it simple :D

Uska
11-01-2015, 09:23 AM
We already have karma xp for ETR.
Just allow ETR when you have level 20+ and 6.6 million karma xp for 1 sphere. Keep it simple :D

Ummm no its supposed to be cap and it shouldn't change your way could have people going much quicker

Seljuck
11-01-2015, 10:15 AM
The best and easiest option is to change cap to 30 for purpose of etr/itr and redo whole epic XP curve to match new numbers.

F. eg. If you want lv 30 be capped at 7.5 mln XP then make new XP curve for max 7.5 mln XP.

Uska
11-01-2015, 05:11 PM
The best and easiest option is to change cap to 30 for purpose of etr/itr and redo whole epic XP curve to match new numbers.

F. eg. If you want lv 30 be capped at 7.5 mln XP then make new XP curve for max 7.5 mln XP.

A little to low maybe 8 or 8.5

draven1
11-01-2015, 05:51 PM
Ummm no its supposed to be cap and it shouldn't change your way could have people going much quicker

How is it much quicker? It still has SAME 6.6 million karma requirements. It's not quicker at all.

Hawkwier
11-01-2015, 06:11 PM
I have no problem with the increase in XP needed to TR at 30.

If the XP curve is looked at and adjusted sensibly, then that will do for me. :)

But my question is whether the XP from Ottos boxes/stones will be looked at too?

Given how expensive these are, it seems unfair their relative contribution towards getting to cap is indirectly diluted by changing the cap.

So I'm hoping devs will look at that too in conjunction with considering the changes to the XP curve...

Ellihor
11-01-2015, 06:35 PM
I think rebalancing the curve so that it takes 7.5 million xp to get to 30 would be a reasonable compromise. (Right now it's 6.6 million to get to 28.)

Raising it significantly -- which IMO is anything above 8 million to get to 30 -- does nothing except punish newer players. That seems counterproductive to me.

That's it. It's just a terrible moment to start playin ddo right now or to make new alts because of the massive difference in power that comes from inherent stuff. There are very fewer new player nowadays than there was before epic TR system. Epic TR is a slap on the face of newbies. You should not make the gap between new and old players bigger, in factm you should do the opposite. The retention rate of people who start playing is probably much lower now than it was before epic TR came out.

Make lv 30 need not more than 6.6M, intead make it need less. Also reduce the benefit from epic TRs and iconic TRs, specially the passives. Cut it down by 50%, at least. (I'd prefer to see it down to 33% = what now gives +3/life give only +1)

Qhualor
11-01-2015, 06:58 PM
That's it. It's just a terrible moment to start playin ddo right now or to make new alts because of the massive difference in power that comes from inherent stuff. There are very fewer new player nowadays than there was before epic TR system. Epic TR is a slap on the face of newbies. You should not make the gap between new and old players bigger, in factm you should do the opposite. The retention rate of people who start playing is probably much lower now than it was before epic TR came out.

Make lv 30 need not more than 6.6M, intead make it need less. Also reduce the benefit from epic TRs and iconic TRs, specially the passives. Cut it down by 50%, at least.

that's some serious nerf you are suggesting and a kick in the pants for those that bought Iconics, xp pots and whatever else to get those past life benefits.

I really doubt that the retention of new players is affected by how much xp is needed to cap. the biggest reason why there is a big gap between vets and new players is because past lives became the new end game instead of the old raid end game. with retention down for various other reasons, vets are more dominant in DDO who have already been grinding for those lives. with elite that has been new player/inexperienced friendly having the best rewards for the past few years when the devs tried different approaches to appease the retention, the gap is noticeably much more. basically, vets already have a head start to create that gap, but the game has changed enough that those past lives are really only a perk or something to do in a "never ending" game.

the_one_dwarfforged
11-02-2015, 12:37 AM
im just wondering. have any of the devs done an etr? do you know how boring it is? do you know how painful it is when you are playing in a destiny that you just dont want to play in, or simply adds nothing to your build? do you know how uninteresting your 6000th en von3, wk, tbf, spies, etc is?

i get its our choice to etr, but when you offer as many big, sweet, tasty carrots as you do, you cant really blame us for playing the boring **** game. after all, its the character advancement that is appealing to us enough to make the decision to etr, not how much fun we are going to (not) have running ens til our eyes bleed.

just something to consider when you (plow ahead) think about the ramifications of raising the xp needed to etr.


and i am not trying to push the argument that etr xp should not be raised, because honestly i have done enough epic lives to know that i cant stomach anymore and will not be doing them even if you were to say lower the xp needed by 600k. i just wanted you to think about the increased pain you will be causing your players before you increase their pain.

Iriale
11-02-2015, 06:55 AM
~ Just a reminder that epic levels are increasing to level 30 with Update 29, so if you are working on an Epic character for the purpose of a true reincarnation you might want to level before update 29 as it will be take more XP when you can go to level 30.

~ Yes, we have read the question about what happens when a level 28 character starts a reincarnation and then the level is increased. We are discussing that internally.

Sev~
Let me remind you one thing: the games are about fun. And you (turbine) are stealing all fun playing DDO. The grind that you are promoting in recent times is absolutely absurd. And yes, it's not fun.

The ETR was a mistake from the start. A stupid, monumental mistake. DDO is the only game I know that the player is penalized by having a toon in the cap. For the love of god, Sev, you are in time: eliminate the stupid ETR and allow get those past lives playing in the cap. Players should have a chance to play their capped characters. As it is now, you get to 28 and say... now what? Other ETR? What the hell am I doing ETRs? No, do not tell me that within two years we will have a system to play at cap. I will leave this game of boredom long before two years. And do not talk me about the reaper mode. I'm not interested in the reaper mode, and I am sure that most people will not. The elitists are a very minor proportion.

The ETRs are boring. Intensely boring. There is little epic content. Without first termination bonuses level up again is long and boring. When I am capped again my only perspective is to repeat the cycle. Bah bah bah.

As I know that you will disregard my advice, at least bind the ETRs to the karma, not to the epic level. ETR is about karma, so why relate it to the level? It has no sense, ETR is different to heroic TR. Stop turning this game in some unbearably boring. Before the ETRs I had six active toons. I like playing varied. Now the stupid amount of experience required makes having alts nonsense. Why turbine penalize having alts? Do not you realize that more alts are more sales on the store? My main is completionist /epic completionist, but every day I find fewer reasons to want to play my alts.

And if not, at least let us to get first termination bonuses again after an ETR. No a perfect solution, but better than nothing.

Do you know why people are angry rather than excited about the raised cap? Because it don't add anything more except boredom. Epic levels are numerically very boring. A feat more? Do you think that one feat worth the tedium of two levels more, and this in an endless cycle of boring ETRs? And that will come up with even more enemies with HPs in absurd amounts (as if they have just few!) and saves even more absurd (for me, high level content is absurd and boring). In heroic, when I level up, I see a progression: more spells, more fun; and there are more quests. In epics no. And the prospect of level up two more levels is ... none. There is no reward in the cap. Only more ETRs. Please, Sev. Do you think that's fun? Do you not understand why people are frustrated and angry instead of happy?

And incidentally I will give you another tip in other important issue: if you want to lengthen the life of the raids, introduce in the loot tables a decent chance of getting hearts of reincarnation, jeweler's kit, skill augments, new special augments, ability tomes, etc. Yes, all those things we have no way to get into the game but there should be a way to get them. People keep playing the raids if there is a reason for that and not only items that are only needed once and quickly become outdated. Your greed makes little worth to play this game and it makes me wonder why I'm paying a subscription.

Iriale
11-02-2015, 06:59 AM
im just wondering. have any of the devs done an etr? do you know how boring it is? do you know how painful it is when you are playing in a destiny that you just dont want to play in, or simply adds nothing to your build? do you know how uninteresting your 6000th en von3, wk, tbf, spies, etc is?
I doubt it

Iriale
11-02-2015, 07:43 AM
Heroic True Reincarnation won't be affected. Iconic True Reincarnation and Epic Reincarnation would be affected.

The discount since Update 20, being temporarily reach only the lower level cap of 28, is going up to level 30 as originally planned1. Since Update 20, there's been quite a lot more epic quests added to the game, making getting to 28 (and beyond) easier to reach than ever before. It's probably beyond time to raise the cap to 30 as previously planned (but we've had many things we wanted to do first!)



Some may call this "spin", but that's how it was originally and always planned. Calling this a punishment reasonably reflects current feelings and is certainly fine feedback - and comments about it being harder to know this from just being in game is good feedback as well, though we tried to be careful to say "level cap" and not "level 28" in the in-game text, as far as I know. Reaching only level 28 was always intended as pre-emptive easing of the Epic Reincarnation loop until we put in more quests, even beyond level 28 (which has happened since Update 20).

I do not care if those are older or original plans. I worry about my fun. And this is not funny. ETRs are not fun, and longer ETRs are absurdly unfunny.

There is only one reason to play a game, Varg: fun. Think about it.

Valniel
11-02-2015, 08:09 AM
8m for cap and buffing some quests' xp (yeah, people always run the same quest in epic lvl over and over ... devs need to balance that ...) or maybe saga would be nice.

I play for something like 6 month so I'm rather new (2 epl, and soon 2 ipl) and this change can be very discouraging if done wrong.
And yeah, allowing us to Etr with 6m karma (or some more if there is no more lvl requirement and lvl lost) only would be even better.

Even if people don't quit after this change, and I don't think they will, we can just get bored someday working on some etr or itr and just left ... It isn't in your interest...

Please devs, just take your time and do it right.

Ps: Sorry for the mistakes, not my native language.

IronClan
11-02-2015, 09:20 AM
The solution is so simple and elegant

use only karma for ETR's

put karma in a common pool

Give reduced Karma gain at cap, but still allow it to be gained (as it currently uselessly can be).

Adjust Karma needed to ETR to desired number less than 30 cap, but if needed more than 6million... 6.6mil for example or 7 these are reasonable compromises.


Solves:

Unfun of being in off Destinies, you still need to fill out the Destinies for twists and fate points, but repeated off destiny slog fest is removed. Spending months in a gimpy sphere for your build is avoided.
Solves not making an uber grind worse (79million XP for 4 twists, if they go to 10million XP for level 30 this grind becomes 120million XP, massively punishing new players or those who didn't jump on Crucible Macro'ing)
Can be done at Cap, thus giving at least some semblance of a slow end game progression how slow is entirely up to the % of XP gained at cap compared to while leveling, 100% XP while leveling will promote some people still doing 20-30 ETR's
Promotes normal playing of the game instead of being forced into EN Von3, Wizking, Spies, Mirror daily rotation due to feeling gimpy in off destinies. Off destiny leveling is reduced, and the fun of playing DDO is increased.
Alt playstyles getting overly punished for playing more than one character, with this change they can fill out destinies do a couple ETR's the old way, and then make slow progress at cap while playing normally as their chosen character flavor and build choices dictate.



Simple, elegant, flexible, and popular with at least some players already so of course they wont do it.

Iriale
11-02-2015, 09:23 AM
The solution is so simple and elegant

use only karma for ETR's

put karma in a common pool

Give reduced Karma gain at cap, but still allow it to be gained (as it currently uselessly can be).

Adjust Karma needed to ETR to desired number less than 30 cap, but if needed more than 6million... 6.6mil for example or 7 these are reasonable compromises.


Solves:

Unfun of being in off Destinies, you still need to fill out the Destinies for twists and fate points, but repeated off destiny slog fest is removed. Spending months in a gimpy sphere for your build is avoided.
Solves not making an uber grind worse (79million XP for 4 twists, if they go to 10million XP for level 30 this grind becomes 120million XP, massively punishing new players or those who didn't jump on Crucible Macro'ing)
Can be done at Cap, thus giving at least some semblance of a slow end game progression how slow is entirely up to the % of XP gained at cap compared to while leveling, 100% XP while leveling will promote some people still doing 20-30 ETR's
Promotes normal playing of the game instead of being forced into EN Von3, Wizking, Spies, Mirror daily rotation due to feeling gimpy in off destinies. Off destiny leveling is reduced, and the fun of playing DDO is increased.
Alt playstyles getting overly punished for playing more than one character, with this change they can fill out destinies do a couple ETR's the old way, and then make slow progress at cap while playing normally as their chosen character flavor and build choices dictate.



Simple, elegant, flexible, and popular with at least some players already so of course they wont do it.
I hope that devs read this post and think about it.

FestusHood
11-02-2015, 09:42 AM
I do not care if those are older or original plans. I worry about my fun. And this is not funny. ETRs are not fun, and longer ETRs are absurdly unfunny.

There is only one reason to play a game, Varg: fun. Think about it.

It's still hard for me to envision what things to do at cap could be. People talk about the old loot grind, but i don't see how that is in any way different than the xp grind.

You want things to do at cap. Current cap is 28. After the next update the thing to do at cap is get the next two levels. That is actually how i will view it, since right now i don't really get to enjoy playing my level 28 characters. There is tons of loot i could grind, but i would rather do that with a character that is getting xp. I have a long time 28 character that is trying to get 20th completions on some raids. That character is essentially dead for me, except the couple hours a week he runs those raids.

FestusHood
11-02-2015, 09:53 AM
The solution is so simple and elegant

use only karma for ETR's

put karma in a common pool

Give reduced Karma gain at cap, but still allow it to be gained (as it currently uselessly can be).

Adjust Karma needed to ETR to desired number less than 30 cap, but if needed more than 6million... 6.6mil for example or 7 these are reasonable compromises.


Solves:

Unfun of being in off Destinies, you still need to fill out the Destinies for twists and fate points, but repeated off destiny slog fest is removed. Spending months in a gimpy sphere for your build is avoided.
Solves not making an uber grind worse (79million XP for 4 twists, if they go to 10million XP for level 30 this grind becomes 120million XP, massively punishing new players or those who didn't jump on Crucible Macro'ing)
Can be done at Cap, thus giving at least some semblance of a slow end game progression how slow is entirely up to the % of XP gained at cap compared to while leveling, 100% XP while leveling will promote some people still doing 20-30 ETR's
Promotes normal playing of the game instead of being forced into EN Von3, Wizking, Spies, Mirror daily rotation due to feeling gimpy in off destinies. Off destiny leveling is reduced, and the fun of playing DDO is increased.
Alt playstyles getting overly punished for playing more than one character, with this change they can fill out destinies do a couple ETR's the old way, and then make slow progress at cap while playing normally as their chosen character flavor and build choices dictate.



Simple, elegant, flexible, and popular with at least some players already so of course they wont do it.

I don't really care if they do something like this, but for me it would add nothing. Again, what will you be doing differently than you are now except that you will always be doing it with a capped character. And for people who complain about how slowly progress is made after first time bonuses are gone, well here's a way to make progress even slower.

For me, i simply must try new builds every so often. I have no vision of a finished build for any of my characters. I do have basic archetypes in mind for them. The main problem i personally have with keeping a character at cap is that i simply become bored of playing exactly the same way for extended periods.

Gljosh
11-02-2015, 10:11 AM
I have a feeling that this has been bounced around or something similar to it.

Make the move from 28 to 30 be a 4~4.5 million move (so final would be around 10.5~11 million).

Now at levels 30 you can ETR any sphere that is full, you stay at 30 it just clears a sphere OR if you want to rework your skills/feats/stats you have the option to do that as well.

ITR still takes reaching level 30, BUT you no longer have to decide between ETR or ITR. Thus comparing Heroic Past Life (3.8 million) to Iconic Past Life (5.7 to 6.2 million after you remove the 6 for an ETR) becomes quite a bit easier.
A Heroic Past Life would cost 3.8 million.
An Epic Past Life would cost 6 million.
An Iconic Past Life would cost between 2.9 (subtracting the 3.8 for Heroic and 6 for ETR) to 8.9 million (subtracting the 3.8 for heroic).


The solution is so simple and elegant

use only karma for ETR's

put karma in a common pool

Give reduced Karma gain at cap, but still allow it to be gained (as it currently uselessly can be).

Adjust Karma needed to ETR to desired number less than 30 cap, but if needed more than 6million... 6.6mil for example or 7 these are reasonable compromises.


Solves:

Unfun of being in off Destinies, you still need to fill out the Destinies for twists and fate points, but repeated off destiny slog fest is removed. Spending months in a gimpy sphere for your build is avoided.
Solves not making an uber grind worse (79million XP for 4 twists, if they go to 10million XP for level 30 this grind becomes 120million XP, massively punishing new players or those who didn't jump on Crucible Macro'ing)
Can be done at Cap, thus giving at least some semblance of a slow end game progression how slow is entirely up to the % of XP gained at cap compared to while leveling, 100% XP while leveling will promote some people still doing 20-30 ETR's
Promotes normal playing of the game instead of being forced into EN Von3, Wizking, Spies, Mirror daily rotation due to feeling gimpy in off destinies. Off destiny leveling is reduced, and the fun of playing DDO is increased.
Alt playstyles getting overly punished for playing more than one character, with this change they can fill out destinies do a couple ETR's the old way, and then make slow progress at cap while playing normally as their chosen character flavor and build choices dictate.



Simple, elegant, flexible, and popular with at least some players already so of course they wont do it.

It seems like we have similar ideas.

I feel that allowing ETRs to happen at Level 30 cap without the run back down to 20 could make a nice endgame.

RobbinB
11-02-2015, 02:19 PM
It's still hard for me to envision what things to do at cap could be. People talk about the old loot grind, but i don't see how that is in any way different than the xp grind.

You want things to do at cap. Current cap is 28. After the next update the thing to do at cap is get the next two levels. That is actually how i will view it, since right now i don't really get to enjoy playing my level 28 characters. There is tons of loot i could grind, but i would rather do that with a character that is getting xp. I have a long time 28 character that is trying to get 20th completions on some raids. That character is essentially dead for me, except the couple hours a week he runs those raids.

1. Bonus xp tiers that aren't "levels"

So you are capped. Any xp you earn isn't wasted but goes towards bonus tiers that give rewards more similar to patron rewards/monster manual rewards etc...Things that are "nice" but don't result in a huge discrepancy between newer/older players. Also, no hamster wheel of leveling where u also need to spend significant game time tr'ing or reworking equipment layouts. At endgame, quest levels may increase and loot level may increase (as new content is rolled out) but all 30+ loot can be equipped by a level 30 (ie endgame) player.

2. Revise random loot system
Potential for incredibly powerful items (better than named items) but at incredibly low drop rates. So these items exist but can't be farmed, since they are rare and don't drop in known locations - so you might as well run your favorite quests, just run something (because no chests means no chance at awesome loot). The shock value of getting an uber item should be similar to that of getting a vorpal weapon when they were first introduced. This idea was discussed in another thread.

3. Legendary crafting recipes that are also incredibly rare and drop in any chest across range of content at endgame

I think the "introduce new content with set list of new named items with known chest locations" paradigm is a game killer. Rather have new content named lists focus more on consumable items/augments/etc. which enhance but don't replace existing gear layouts. (Not to say there shouldn't be the occasional new weapon or piece of gear.)

Instead, introduce legendary recipes that can fall anywhere but at super-low probability that allow you to upgrade one of the previous named items to a uber level 30 version of that item. The keys of this crafting system would be:
1. extremely rare so difficult to say "I'm going to get that item" - more like finding any recipe is XMas day
2. crafting recipe pools multiple previous items across wide range of content (collectibles/remnants/gems/named items/commendations/tokens/etc...) - perhaps up to 10 per recipe
3. crafting items requires minimum crafting levels which are different for each recipe
4. recipes are freely tradeable - a totally casual player might sell a recipe for a ridiculous price since they know full well it might take them years to get the ingredients and crafting levels to be able to make them
5. not one location, so absolutely no "farming" quest x, chest y
6. could also have chance at these recipes in certain favour rewards or for example in the bonus reward tiers at engame

Recipes and weapons created would really need some reflection and game awareness on part of the dev team responsible. For example, if you introduce a "legendary Xuum" what is the niche you want to create for that weapon? If it doesn't have a niche (ie some named or crafted weapon is flat out better against all mobs) you have failed. If it is the uber weapon for all mobs you have failed. Is it for example, the absolute best weapon against fire-sensitive mobs? Best against some type of enemy? You need to justify actually making the recipe but at the same time not have making the recipe mean there is no further point in weapons in named or random loot.

That's how I would do cap. Chance to improve your character by playing any content you like, but no "farming" of content. I'd probably spend a huge deal of time in quests like ToEE. Why? Because I enjoy the quest, and that's how it should be.

Vargouille
11-02-2015, 03:03 PM
how do newer players work harder for past lives when it would be viewed as normal to them? honestly i think ER shouldn't have been possible until level 30 was firmly in place. for that matter i still have issues with epic past lives since you don't do an actual reincarnation and i stated that back in the beginning.

There's definitely a lot of historical stuff going on here.



With Iconics around U18/U19, they couldn't reincarnate (especially True Reincarnate into a new race). They meant they were just left out of the loop. We fixed that with Update 20, adding Iconic True Reincarnation. This was something we didn't want to wait on, while also not wanting Iconics to reincarnate at level 20. Getting every class past life by only playing 15-20 is not a design that seemed good for DDO - just consider current discussions of "fair" vs. new and old players.
Since we were doing a fairly big overhaul to Reincarnation generally (including Lesser and Heroic, new UI, Kruz's retirement, etc.), it made sense for us to get Epic Reincarnation in at the same time. This saved us a lot of time and probably greatly reduced bugs. (Reincarnation is a bug-prone system, and the bugs are often serious business!)
In a lot of ways, it could have made sense to wait for level 30 for Epic Reincarnation. We decided it was OK to let players get a shorter/discounted loop for a while until we got to level 30. This was a strategic decision at the time of Update 20.
Introducing Epic Reincarnation sooner rather than later also meant that playing in epic levels could be more rewarding, including for players who liked playing through the reincarnation loop. Some felt that Epic was not "for them", since that progress was wasted and they might as well just stay in Heroic.
Level 30 got pushed later than the original plan, so it's been longer since U20 & Reincarnation revamp than expect (aka: not a "short period with a Reincarnation discount", but two years instead). Some of that was because we wanted to make sure we got additional higher level content out ahead raising the cap, instead of having a sparse end game. Now there's things like Temple of Elemental Evil, epic Necropolis, and this year's quests filling in levels 29 and 30 (plus some older raids), before we raise the cap. (We feel we didn't do this as well as we could have when we raised the cap to level 28, for instance. Lesson learned!)


With infinite time and resources we might have done things differently. The two year gap between Epic Reincarnation and Level 30 wasn't a goal, but at the same time DDO is probably better than if Epic Reincarnation had been delayed for another two years.

(As far as not doing an "Actual Reincarnation", we know some players had done so much Heroic Reincarnation already they were "done" with Heroics. We didn't want to punish them by forcing them back to level 1 even though they had all Heroic past lives already. Even for completely new players, it means you can pick and choose and spend time differently, rather than being forced to do the entire 1-Cap at once each time without as much variance. Designing reincarnation as two separate loops, for Epic and Heroic: No regrets.)

nubbinns
11-02-2015, 03:28 PM
im just wondering. have any of the devs done an etr? do you know how boring it is? do you know how painful it is when you are playing in a destiny that you just dont want to play in, or simply adds nothing to your build? do you know how uninteresting your 6000th en von3, wk, tbf, spies, etc is?

i get its our choice to etr, but when you offer as many big, sweet, tasty carrots as you do, you cant really blame us for playing the boring **** game. after all, its the character advancement that is appealing to us enough to make the decision to etr, not how much fun we are going to (not) have running ens til our eyes bleed.

just something to consider when you (plow ahead) think about the ramifications of raising the xp needed to etr.


and i am not trying to push the argument that etr xp should not be raised, because honestly i have done enough epic lives to know that i cant stomach anymore and will not be doing them even if you were to say lower the xp needed by 600k. i just wanted you to think about the increased pain you will be causing your players before you increase their pain.
I agree with you and irialie on everything you two posted above.

Even BB streaking on EE to cap is lame now. The past few updates are so boring, uninspired and dull that I do not enjoy playing them. Nothing good has come since Necro 4 was made epic. And that was because I already enjoyed those quests and the raid. The older quests beat the new ones by a wide margin. I would have preferred old quests being made epic over the uninteresting new quests we got instead. DoJ is a raid that is so bad that I get mad playing it, then get fatigued. Actual yawn and dullness sets in midway through Devil's Assault raid, err I mean DoJ.

The constant nerf this nerf that is also a bad game of musical chairs. Where the goal is to defecate on the face of the player while punching them in the genitals and handing them the bill. You balance PvP games. Not PvE. If you have to balance a PvE game then make sure you have a population of millions and not 200 per server. And if I hear anyone mention how something was balanced in PnP one more time I'm going to punch a kitten. PnP is the most unbalanced thing I ever played, and I stopped playing as a youth 15 years ago. Garbage=PnP, even more garbage is comparing a live action quasi-FPS game to chucking dice on a table and hoping for a good roll.

Deuces

Grosbeak07
11-02-2015, 03:32 PM
There's definitely a lot of historical stuff going on here.



With Iconics around U18/U19, they couldn't reincarnate (especially True Reincarnate into a new race). They meant they were just left out of the loop. We fixed that with Update 20, adding Iconic True Reincarnation. This was something we didn't want to wait on, while also not wanting Iconics to reincarnate at level 20. Getting every class past life by only playing 15-20 is not a design that seemed good for DDO - just consider current discussions of "fair" vs. new and old players.
Since we were doing a fairly big overhaul to Reincarnation generally (including Lesser and Heroic, new UI, Kruz's retirement, etc.), it made sense for us to get Epic Reincarnation in at the same time. This saved us a lot of time and probably greatly reduced bugs. (Reincarnation is a bug-prone system, and the bugs are often serious business!)
In a lot of ways, it could have made sense to wait for level 30 for Epic Reincarnation. We decided it was OK to let players get a shorter/discounted loop for a while until we got to level 30. This was a strategic decision at the time of Update 20.
Introducing Epic Reincarnation sooner rather than later also meant that playing in epic levels could be more rewarding, including for players who liked playing through the reincarnation loop. Some felt that Epic was not "for them", since that progress was wasted and they might as well just stay in Heroic.
Level 30 got pushed later than the original plan, so it's been longer since U20 & Reincarnation revamp than expect (aka: not a "short period with a Reincarnation discount", but two years instead). Some of that was because we wanted to make sure we got additional higher level content out ahead raising the cap, instead of having a sparse end game. Now there's things like Temple of Elemental Evil, epic Necropolis, and this year's quests filling in levels 29 and 30 (plus some older raids), before we raise the cap. (We feel we didn't do this as well as we could have when we raised the cap to level 28, for instance. Lesson learned!)


With infinite time and resources we might have done things differently. The two year gap between Epic Reincarnation and Level 30 wasn't a goal, but at the same time DDO is probably better than if Epic Reincarnation had been delayed for another two years.

(As far as not doing an "Actual Reincarnation", we know some players had done so much Heroic Reincarnation already they were "done" with Heroics. We didn't want to punish them by forcing them back to level 1 even though they had all Heroic past lives already. Even for completely new players, it means you can pick and choose and spend time differently, rather than being forced to do the entire 1-Cap at once each time without as much variance. Designing reincarnation as two separate loops, for Epic and Heroic: No regrets.)

This interesting, but doesn't answer any questions or calm any fears.

I still want to know how you plan to balance newer/casual players who are indirectly punished by not grinding out past lives this very moment?

Livmo
11-02-2015, 03:56 PM
There's definitely a lot of historical stuff going on here.



With Iconics around U18/U19, they couldn't reincarnate (especially True Reincarnate into a new race). They meant they were just left out of the loop. We fixed that with Update 20, adding Iconic True Reincarnation. This was something we didn't want to wait on, while also not wanting Iconics to reincarnate at level 20. Getting every class past life by only playing 15-20 is not a design that seemed good for DDO - just consider current discussions of "fair" vs. new and old players.
Since we were doing a fairly big overhaul to Reincarnation generally (including Lesser and Heroic, new UI, Kruz's retirement, etc.), it made sense for us to get Epic Reincarnation in at the same time. This saved us a lot of time and probably greatly reduced bugs. (Reincarnation is a bug-prone system, and the bugs are often serious business!)
In a lot of ways, it could have made sense to wait for level 30 for Epic Reincarnation. We decided it was OK to let players get a shorter/discounted loop for a while until we got to level 30. This was a strategic decision at the time of Update 20.
Introducing Epic Reincarnation sooner rather than later also meant that playing in epic levels could be more rewarding, including for players who liked playing through the reincarnation loop. Some felt that Epic was not "for them", since that progress was wasted and they might as well just stay in Heroic.
Level 30 got pushed later than the original plan, so it's been longer since U20 & Reincarnation revamp than expect (aka: not a "short period with a Reincarnation discount", but two years instead). Some of that was because we wanted to make sure we got additional higher level content out ahead raising the cap, instead of having a sparse end game. Now there's things like Temple of Elemental Evil, epic Necropolis, and this year's quests filling in levels 29 and 30 (plus some older raids), before we raise the cap. (We feel we didn't do this as well as we could have when we raised the cap to level 28, for instance. Lesson learned!)


With infinite time and resources we might have done things differently. The two year gap between Epic Reincarnation and Level 30 wasn't a goal, but at the same time DDO is probably better than if Epic Reincarnation had been delayed for another two years.

(As far as not doing an "Actual Reincarnation", we know some players had done so much Heroic Reincarnation already they were "done" with Heroics. We didn't want to punish them by forcing them back to level 1 even though they had all Heroic past lives already. Even for completely new players, it means you can pick and choose and spend time differently, rather than being forced to do the entire 1-Cap at once each time without as much variance. Designing reincarnation as two separate loops, for Epic and Heroic: No regrets.)

I'm happy we got a long extended free lunch on the IRs/ERs.

I'm not complaining. We had it good for too long.

willox2112
11-02-2015, 04:03 PM
I think that a player should be able to ER whenever a sphere is ready. If I am level 22 and have 6 mill xp in a sphere I should be able to ER. If a player spends extra time at end game to fill up all four spheres (24 mill xp) then that player should be allowed to epic reincarnate 4 times in a row (if you want to put a timer in between that's fine). Let's be honest about it, Epic Reincarnation has nothing to do with epic levels; it has everything to do with Epic Destinies.

In fact, it should be called Destiny Reincarnation.

Now, that also implies a new mechanism for player reincarnation at level 30. Something totally different and not tied to destinies. What that is? I don't know :o

Peace!

Grosbeak07
11-02-2015, 04:06 PM
I think that a player should be able to ER whenever a sphere is ready. If I am level 22 and have 6 mill xp in a sphere I should be able to ER. If a player spends extra time at end game to fill up all four spheres (24 mill xp) then that player should be allowed to epic reincarnate 4 times in a row (if you want to put a timer in between that's fine). Let's be honest about it, Epic Reincarnation has nothing to do with epic levels; it has everything to do with Epic Destinies.

In fact, it should be called Destiny Reincarnation.

Now, that also implies a new mechanism for player reincarnation at level 30. Something totally different and not tied to destinies. What that is? I don't know :o

Peace!

What's the trade off? And more importantly, how does Turbine sell more Epic otto's boxes!

RobbinB
11-02-2015, 04:43 PM
There's definitely a lot of historical stuff going on here.

(As far as not doing an "Actual Reincarnation", we know some players had done so much Heroic Reincarnation already they were "done" with Heroics. We didn't want to punish them by forcing them back to level 1 even though they had all Heroic past lives already. Even for completely new players, it means you can pick and choose and spend time differently, rather than being forced to do the entire 1-Cap at once each time without as much variance. Designing reincarnation as two separate loops, for Epic and Heroic: No regrets.)

All I can say is Hallelujah that you didn't have only a combined Heroic/Epic reincarnation cycle. I am one of those persons that is done with Heroic. One or two past lives ok, but maybe I'm one of the only people that actually felt like your "You win DDO" was in fact a joke and not a challenge. Since (for the most part) the heroic past lives aren't earth-shattering, I also think it's pretty fair. I don't have to do Heroic completionist to compete at endgame.

Now in general I don't mind the Epic cycling. It just seems to not be quite as daunting as the Heroic cycle. It does get a little tedious to have to recreate your character so frequently however. It would be nice if there was an option to "recreate with no changes" to streamline that part. I'm also not a fan of having to keep at least 2 or 3 or 4 equipment layouts. One for level 20, one for levels 24-27, one for endgame - inventory is already a pain. This is a big reason why I ask that anything you do as far as "levels" or xp at endgame does involve level recycyling - I'd love to just get to the point where I have a single gear layout on at least some of my toons.

One thing I don't understand and it's a point of made countless times on the forum but have never got dev feedback or rationale on, is why is there no way to take an unfun character and bring him back to the existing level with all new everything (class/race/sex/feats)? You recognize that there is some portion of the playerbase that doesn't love the reincarnation cycling, yet anyone with a "dead" character (which can happen for a variety of reasons, including game balance or system changes, poor player choices, rp aspects, etc...), is hooped unless they want to go through a lengthy or lengthy (pl.) reincarnations. Yuck!

Propane
11-02-2015, 05:16 PM
I generally like how the current system is laid out - the two loops (Heroic and Epic) meet the goals of a lot of players.

My only real frustration and one that will be shared by newer players is what to do the first time you hit level cap....

I play a lot of alts - enjoy different builds. None of my character took part in the massive (house of boredom anyone?) grind to max out all the ED in one life.

As a first epic lifer, I spread my XP around to get some a few key abilities - fate points - etc...

So, I hit level cap and have 1.5-2.5 million XP in each sphere... now what?

Gain another ~4 million XP at cap to get to 6 million Karma and ETR or just do a TR and regrind all the way to 28....

I would love to have the option to do my 1st ETR per alt at 1st time CAP without the 6 million Karma for the FIRST TIME ONLY.

2nd and future lives you will have a few twist and such - going from 20 to cap isn't as painful...

Valniel
11-02-2015, 05:29 PM
I'm happy we got a long extended free lunch on the IRs/ERs.

I'm not complaining. We had it good for too long.

Free lunch? Seriously?

You had, we won't.

DANTEIL
11-02-2015, 05:31 PM
I generally like how the current system is laid out - the two loops (Heroic and Epic) meet the goals of a lot of players.

My only real frustration and one that will be shared by newer players is what to do the first time you hit level cap....

I play a lot of alts - enjoy different builds. None of my character took part in the massive (house of boredom anyone?) grind to max out all the ED in one life.

As a first epic lifer, I spread my XP around to get some a few key abilities - fate points - etc...

So, I hit level cap and have 1.5-2.5 million XP in each sphere... now what?

Gain another ~4 million XP at cap to get to 6 million Karma and ETR or just do a TR and regrind all the way to 28....

I would love to have the option to do my 1st ETR per alt at 1st time CAP without the 6 million Karma for the FIRST TIME ONLY.

2nd and future lives you will have a few twist and such - going from 20 to cap isn't as painful...

Yep, this is exactly the problem that I have run into. I am a slow leveler, and only have one character at cap at 28 and two other characters in Epics. All first life. When that first character hit level 28, I was dumbfounded to learn (no one had explained this to me) that I had to get 6 Million Karma XP in ONE sphere before I would be able to do an Epic Reincarnation. That's crazy! I was doing what I thought you were supposed to do with Epic Destinies, which was to work on the Destinies that would improve your character. Little did I know that you were expected to just fill in all the dots in a sphere regardless. It seems like the Epic Reincarnation system is really set up for characters who already have all of their Epic Destinies filled already (which is probably most of the veteran players, I realize) but does nothing for characters hitting Epic levels for the first time.

The ironic consequence of the Level cap to 30 is that I'll have that much more Karma XP accrued if and when I hit 30 - I don't know yet if that would be enough for 6 million, though.

Livmo
11-02-2015, 05:41 PM
Free lunch? Seriously?

You had, we won't.

The L28 IR/ER was not meant to last forever, https://www.ddo.com/en/update-20-release-notes#Reincarnation_Updates

I'm thankful level cap didn't go up on schedule, since I was able to get more ERs in before cap is raised. Allot of players hustled and got their ERs done. It would suck for anyone just now coming to this realization or just starting their ERs.

Basically people got to IR/ER for less XP, for a much longer period than anticipated/planned. This day was going to come sooner or later.

Thrudh
11-02-2015, 05:42 PM
im just wondering. have any of the devs done an etr? do you know how boring it is? do you know how painful it is when you are playing in a destiny that you just dont want to play in, or simply adds nothing to your build? do you know how uninteresting your 6000th en von3, wk, tbf, spies, etc is?

The problem is you.

You don't have to run von3, wk, spies, etc. 6000 times to eTR. I can manage 3 full eTRs without repeating hardly any quests at all. It's not boring at all.

I don't understand why this is so hard...

Qhualor
11-02-2015, 05:43 PM
There's definitely a lot of historical stuff going on here.



With Iconics around U18/U19, they couldn't reincarnate (especially True Reincarnate into a new race). They meant they were just left out of the loop. We fixed that with Update 20, adding Iconic True Reincarnation. This was something we didn't want to wait on, while also not wanting Iconics to reincarnate at level 20. Getting every class past life by only playing 15-20 is not a design that seemed good for DDO - just consider current discussions of "fair" vs. new and old players.
Since we were doing a fairly big overhaul to Reincarnation generally (including Lesser and Heroic, new UI, Kruz's retirement, etc.), it made sense for us to get Epic Reincarnation in at the same time. This saved us a lot of time and probably greatly reduced bugs. (Reincarnation is a bug-prone system, and the bugs are often serious business!)
In a lot of ways, it could have made sense to wait for level 30 for Epic Reincarnation. We decided it was OK to let players get a shorter/discounted loop for a while until we got to level 30. This was a strategic decision at the time of Update 20.
Introducing Epic Reincarnation sooner rather than later also meant that playing in epic levels could be more rewarding, including for players who liked playing through the reincarnation loop. Some felt that Epic was not "for them", since that progress was wasted and they might as well just stay in Heroic.
Level 30 got pushed later than the original plan, so it's been longer since U20 & Reincarnation revamp than expect (aka: not a "short period with a Reincarnation discount", but two years instead). Some of that was because we wanted to make sure we got additional higher level content out ahead raising the cap, instead of having a sparse end game. Now there's things like Temple of Elemental Evil, epic Necropolis, and this year's quests filling in levels 29 and 30 (plus some older raids), before we raise the cap. (We feel we didn't do this as well as we could have when we raised the cap to level 28, for instance. Lesson learned!)


With infinite time and resources we might have done things differently. The two year gap between Epic Reincarnation and Level 30 wasn't a goal, but at the same time DDO is probably better than if Epic Reincarnation had been delayed for another two years.

(As far as not doing an "Actual Reincarnation", we know some players had done so much Heroic Reincarnation already they were "done" with Heroics. We didn't want to punish them by forcing them back to level 1 even though they had all Heroic past lives already. Even for completely new players, it means you can pick and choose and spend time differently, rather than being forced to do the entire 1-Cap at once each time without as much variance. Designing reincarnation as two separate loops, for Epic and Heroic: No regrets.)

first off, thanks for the response back. the following is my opinion and not trying to be argumentative.

1. as I said in the beginning when Iconics were first released, they are races with a predetermined 1st level of a class and not true classes. I still don't understand why you can get a past life for a race when we have only been able to do it for classes. I don't think it was ever officially said, but I believe it was assumed why Iconics start at level 15 is because some players wanted past lives, but also wanted to continue playing in epics. it seemed to me more of a compromise than anything else. I am glad though that you cant get past lives for Iconics by only going from 15-20, which is why I said earlier in my edited post that I am fine with them requiring more xp than ERs and TRs since they do get a 2 for 1 deal.

2. well, from what I hear, the loss of destiny xp is still happening to some players when they do an ER :) the problem with doing epic reincarnation in the beginning is pretty clear in this thread that with the raising of the cap players don't want to have to go an extra couple levels. even though it was stated a long time ago that eventually we will need to be level 30 to reincarnate, its causing some discussions to try and convince you devs to re-think the plan. its probably something unforeseen or maybe didn't realize it could cause this much discussion, but I personally would have rather seen more focus on establishing epic content and than worry about epic reincarnation and releasing Iconics after. if it weren't for duping and what i consider a poor business decision with Raid Boxes, Raid Timer Bypass and (since its you, im going to say this nicely) ASAH FOT, CITW, TF, Deathwyrm, MOD and DOJ would have been plenty to keep players busy while also staying busy questing for gear and leveling alts.

3. yeah, like I said imo, I think it was done backwards. live and learn? or who knows, better off this way. I just think the game would be so much different if reincarnation and Iconics were put on hold. I did defend the decision when some players complained about nothing to do at cap other than TR/IR/ER. looking back now after what has changed and the progress made, I cant help but think it hurt the game more than helping it asking us to be patient while you devs established epic content for us.

4. I remember that. there was some posts by players that talked about how they had little to no interest in epics. however, EGH gave players a lot to do with gear and it was challenging. I would assume with resources not going towards epic reincarnation if it was put on hold, more of a back burner or a between projects work, there would have been more focus towards building up content for more to do. I know some players were disappointed when that raid (whatever it was called) never saw the light of day. I think there would have been plenty for us to do and those who enjoyed the reincarnation heroic loop would have kept going regardless. the only reason why I started doing past lives was because the content was tougher than what I was used to with old epics and felt I needed them and because there was no established end game content or the hype was over in just a couple months. i planned on being in that heroic loop but i was preparing to be able to handle EE content. up to that point i had never felt the need or desire for more than 3 past lives.

5. i would say there is going to be plenty of high epic level content now. i don't see it changing the way some players deal with their epic past lives by deviating from their daily VON 3, Spies, Wiz King, Von5 EH/EN runs, but at least there will be plenty to do while on the reincarnation cycle.

RobbinB
11-02-2015, 05:48 PM
The L28 IR/ER was not meant to last forever, https://www.ddo.com/en/update-20-release-notes#Reincarnation_Updates

I'm thankful level cap didn't go up on schedule, since I was able to get more ERs in before cap is raised. Allot of players hustled and got their ERs done. It would suck for anyone just now coming to this realization or just starting their ERs.

Basically people got to IR/ER for less XP, for a much longer period than anticipated/planned. This day was going to come sooner or later.

Yes, we all get that the devs had a plan, but that plan is not unchangeable. The devs can decide how they want to bring in levels 29 and 30 and how it affects reincarnation. They should do what is best for the game. Many posters are weighing in that they don't feel that simply moving the cap to level 30 is the way to go. The devs can choose to listen to that, or not. Some posters are acting like the "or not" is a done deal, which it's not.

Livmo
11-02-2015, 05:58 PM
Yes, we all get that the devs had a plan, but that plan is not unchangeable. The devs can decide how they want to bring in levels 29 and 30 and how it affects reincarnation. They should do what is best for the game. Many posters are weighing in that they don't feel that simply moving the cap to level 30 is the way to go. The devs can choose to listen to that, or not. Some posters are acting like the "or not" is a done deal, which it's not.

Further back, https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425596-Paradigm-Shift-how-we-are-looking-at-Epic-Reincarnation?p=5100345&viewfull=1#post5100345

I'm open to change. How about the L30 cap be scrapped altogether and leave things as they are and direct those energies to more new content?

Thrudh
11-02-2015, 06:13 PM
(As far as not doing an "Actual Reincarnation", we know some players had done so much Heroic Reincarnation already they were "done" with Heroics. We didn't want to punish them by forcing them back to level 1 even though they had all Heroic past lives already. Even for completely new players, it means you can pick and choose and spend time differently, rather than being forced to do the entire 1-Cap at once each time without as much variance. Designing reincarnation as two separate loops, for Epic and Heroic: No regrets.)

FYI... I love the current system... I love switching between heroic TRs and epic TRs... Both play very differently, and there's a ton of content in both areas.

For end-game, I would love it if you added a loot grind somewhat like the seal/shard/scroll system.. Better would be a Shroud loot system though... Then people could get to end-game, make some progress towards some loot, and if they start to get bored playing end-game quests, they could then heroic TR or epic TR back a ways...

Thrudh
11-02-2015, 06:17 PM
This interesting, but doesn't answer any questions or calm any fears.

I still want to know how you plan to balance newer/casual players who are indirectly punished by not grinding out past lives this very moment?

Casual players don't "grind". They actually have fun playing the game, so they will not be affected that much.

New elite powergamers will indeed be upset, but then again, some grinds are easier today than they were when the older powergamers had to do them, so it probably balances out.

Jasparion
11-02-2015, 07:16 PM
I'm happy we got a long extended free lunch on the IRs/ERs.

I'm not complaining. We had it good for too long.

Are you saying you are looking forward to them making things worse?


What's the trade off? And more importantly, how does Turbine sell more Epic otto's boxes!

Sadly this is the most likely reason for a major increase in XP required to reach cap.

SoulDuster
11-02-2015, 07:39 PM
Let me remind you one thing: the games are about fun. And you (turbine) are stealing all fun playing DDO. The grind that you are promoting in recent times is absolutely absurd. And yes, it's not fun.

The ETR was a mistake from the start. A stupid, monumental mistake. DDO is the only game I know that the player is penalized by having a toon in the cap. For the love of god, Sev, you are in time: eliminate the stupid ETR and allow get those past lives playing in the cap. Players should have a chance to play their capped characters. As it is now, you get to 28 and say... now what? Other ETR? What the hell am I doing ETRs? No, do not tell me that within two years we will have a system to play at cap. I will leave this game of boredom long before two years. And do not talk me about the reaper mode. I'm not interested in the reaper mode, and I am sure that most people will not. The elitists are a very minor proportion.

The ETRs are boring. Intensely boring. There is little epic content. Without first termination bonuses level up again is long and boring. When I am capped again my only perspective is to repeat the cycle. Bah bah bah.

As I know that you will disregard my advice, at least bind the ETRs to the karma, not to the epic level. ETR is about karma, so why relate it to the level? It has no sense, ETR is different to heroic TR. Stop turning this game in some unbearably boring. Before the ETRs I had six active toons. I like playing varied. Now the stupid amount of experience required makes having alts nonsense. Why turbine penalize having alts? Do not you realize that more alts are more sales on the store? My main is completionist /epic completionist, but every day I find fewer reasons to want to play my alts.

And if not, at least let us to get first termination bonuses again after an ETR. No a perfect solution, but better than nothing.

Do you know why people are angry rather than excited about the raised cap? Because it don't add anything more except boredom. Epic levels are numerically very boring. A feat more? Do you think that one feat worth the tedium of two levels more, and this in an endless cycle of boring ETRs? And that will come up with even more enemies with HPs in absurd amounts (as if they have just few!) and saves even more absurd (for me, high level content is absurd and boring). In heroic, when I level up, I see a progression: more spells, more fun; and there are more quests. In epics no. And the prospect of level up two more levels is ... none. There is no reward in the cap. Only more ETRs. Please, Sev. Do you think that's fun? Do you not understand why people are frustrated and angry instead of happy?

And incidentally I will give you another tip in other important issue: if you want to lengthen the life of the raids, introduce in the loot tables a decent chance of getting hearts of reincarnation, jeweler's kit, skill augments, new special augments, ability tomes, etc. Yes, all those things we have no way to get into the game but there should be a way to get them. People keep playing the raids if there is a reason for that and not only items that are only needed once and quickly become outdated. Your greed makes little worth to play this game and it makes me wonder why I'm paying a subscription.

ETR is optional no need for it if you don't like it don't do it. There is more Epic content than ever before and with each new update more is added. If you bypass all Heroic content that can be run on Epic First time bonus is available. Very doable I never ever run Heroic content that is Epic capable. No need at all for a second first time bonus at Epic after you run it Heroic. Perhaps if you didn't waste Epic bonuses at Heroic level and ran them at Epic on EE you would see a world of difference. I run EE first time up hit 28 immediately ETR hit my secondary EE list hit 28 ETR once my first time bonus EE content is done I run same routes EH for first time bonus setup my slayers to fill in XP as needed. Challenges in House C and Estar provide huge XP if you 6 Star them first time. No one person enjoys all the packs challenges or content it's just not possible. There are quests I completely avoid but if someone is running it and I can tag along I am more than happy to grab the XP relying upon them to pave my wave but still doing what I can and not just piking the quest.

With much of the short new content Epic quests it has become easier to get heart seeds and easy ED filling xp than ever before. I have had several +1 to +5 hearts drop not a full but I rather have a + heart anyway to fix a build. Token and seed farms are quick and easy enough. Devil Assault anyone..... Skill tomes drop, Stat augments, skill augments, ship shrines, ability tomes, sp elixirs, and many other items still drop. If you TR or ETR gear is a must and if you power thru TR cycle it can clog your inventory I have found a system that works and I utilize it to my advantage minimizing my needs for gear that it BTC that clogs your inventory I build a toon with end game in mind acquire what I want and junk the rest I farm gear I need with a 28 not at level unless it is BTC on acquire. I want XP on my toon gear is pointless. Greensteel 28 lives before I had any use for it. Some lives I don't even utilize GS at all. I run up against my TR timer all the time on Heroic toons and even on my Main I can hit in 48 hours on a good weekend.

Subscription is optional only thing you get is 10% xp bonus and some content access for it. Optional this game is F2P. Subscriptions are a way of supporting the game community plain and simple.

I hated when they added the -20% rerun penalty so farming quests for XP became much less worth while. I used to run Ex11 Hx1 Nx1 and take 500k out of one quest. Now Ex2 Hx1 Nx1 and moving on. Had to alter my XP farm cycle. Simply learned new quests I bypassed for leveling speed and now I just get more Free TP every life.

Epics can be a test of your play style and build run quests over level by 4+ Levels run Raids short manned. If content is boring to you perhaps your playing the wrong game. I love more levels being added more challenges put in front of my toons no anger here just good times. Past lives, build points, Loot Drops, all bonuses for reaching cap and ETRing.

Raids are pretty well screwed after the introduction of timer bypass. May as well take away 3 day raid timer because they can't really take away all the timers people purchases and other methods they were acquired.

I enjoy running my first life toons at cap and picking up the soul stones of the completionists and triples with tons of lives they die just like me person behind the keyboard can make a world of difference in surviving or excelling on a given build.

I ran a rogue to 28 using level 14 gear to challenge my first life build. I don't even bother using trap gear anymore on my rouge builds. EE or otherwise.

Heroic content is so easy anymore I have run quests 5 - 6 levels over my toon to provide a challenge.

Livmo
11-02-2015, 07:46 PM
Are you saying you are looking forward to them making things worse?



Sadly this is the most likely reason for a major increase in XP required to reach cap.

Ahem, as intended, not better or worse. Better or worse depends on opinion. The fact is we should have gone to 30 cap sooner, but thankfully it has been later.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/431908-Holiday-Producer-s-Letter

Basura_Grande
11-02-2015, 07:58 PM
Ahem, as intended, not better or worse. Better or worse depends on opinion. The fact is we should have gone to 30 cap sooner, but thankfully it has been later.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/431908-Holiday-Producer-s-Letter

Spin it however you want, if people feel the effort in TRing is too much this game dies. This is of course assuming the end-game will continue to be weak, who knows what we'll see at the 30 cap.

SoulDuster
11-02-2015, 08:05 PM
How can anyone complain they need a reward for doing nothing.

I was busy on the TR cycle acquiring my heroic past lives building my skills and toons up.

I was busy on the IR cycle doing the same thing.

I was busy on the ETR cycle as well.

My toons are not all equal. Makes some more challenging some less.

I was not on the Loot cycle. I don't need loot to make my toons better.

Since all this new gear is available and it's better than all the 'old gear' please give it to me so I am on a level gear plateau with those who farmed it while I farmed what was important to me at the time. No one would go for this. Do we need to introduce toon handicapping based on players ability next. I for one was glad to see DDO character lookup being disabled let them join or don't not based on gear stats that are viewable with an outside tool.

I joined a shroud 300hp was kicked for it. when cap was 20. Sorry not enough HP you got to go. Now I watch raids 20-28 only laughing when I can run Shroud at 13-16 full party and do just fine. who needs to learn how to play.

Knowing players who have level 9 green steel gear crying about OP gear OP toons OP builds yet they have items no one could ever acquire again I want my Level 9 Green Steel DDO. Never gonna happen should those people be punished since I did not choose to get items they have or should I be rewarded for them having them and me not having them. Hmmmm doubt it.

You came late to the party suck it up and work like the rest before you did.

No XP pots, No Otto boxes, No bonus xp for partying up, no heroic or epic bonus xp weekends, no slayer pots, to many things to list you have access to that some did not.

I run with noobs all the time more than happy to let them pike learn or die all the same to me. I learned what I know so did everyone before me and will long after me. I watch plenty of people just not let those people in party based solely upon them being new. That kills the game more than anything else every will.

Kalaxia
11-02-2015, 08:52 PM
With infinite time and resources we might have done things differently. The two year gap between Epic Reincarnation and Level 30 wasn't a goal, but at the same time DDO is probably better than if Epic Reincarnation had been delayed for another two years.


Let's be honest, it's more of a formality at this point. The current 20-28 has really been the true "20-30 bracket" for 2 years. You should just rebalance the XP curve for 20-30, to be the same as 20-28 is now. Entirely too much time has passed to throw a wrench in it. There's no reason to add in a delayed penalty for reincarnations.

MMO's should be encouraging character development (for both new players and vets).. not scaring them away by telling them they need to spend more time now for the same thing. It should be the opposite of that.

The actual content itself (and difficulty modes) should be the determining factor for challenge.. not increasing the time for character development.

phalaeo
11-02-2015, 09:12 PM
I like the idea of tying ETR eligibility with karma instead of level.

Right now, it feels like the right amount of time spent for benefit gained.

Uska
11-02-2015, 09:13 PM
Further back, https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425596-Paradigm-Shift-how-we-are-looking-at-Epic-Reincarnation?p=5100345&viewfull=1#post5100345

I'm open to change. How about the L30 cap be scrapped altogether and leave things as they are and direct those energies to more new content?

sounds good should make both sides happy but I doubt if it would

nibel
11-02-2015, 11:08 PM
This interesting, but doesn't answer any questions or calm any fears.

I still want to know how you plan to balance newer/casual players who are indirectly punished by not grinding out past lives this very moment?

As a casual player (unless I'm on vacation or a holiday, I play only saturdays) that is trying to achieve completionist since 2011 (only missing two lives now!), I'll tell you what I think about the raise on requirements for ETR/ITR:

I don't care. Casual players in general do not care that they are "losing" a race that only exist for powergamers. (BTW, "powergamer" is not being said here as a pejorative term, just the counterpoint to the casual approach)

I don't play the game as a race to get everything as fast as possible (or I would be a powergamer, regardless of my playing time). I decided to give myself the objective to have a completionist character mostly for a long-term goal. It will take me five years to reach it (doubt I'll finish two lives before january), and I don't mind. I've set my plan since U20 landed that I will end up in my final life with 3 epic PL of each sphere (so I have 4 toggles turned on, Epic Completionist was a happy coincidence), Completionist, and 3x ranger and monk (since I intend my final life to be a ranged weapon character, probably rogue or artificer). After that, I don't know if I'll push for more lives. Probably not.

I don't have a Thunderforged weapon, I ran MoD only twice up to this day, I never got any slayer above 750 (except Heroic Orchard ONCE when I tried to do once-and-done before the XP rebalance, and was having trouble in elite Amrath), I can count in the fingers the number of green steel gear I crafted, and every time there is a timed event like Crystal Cove or Mabar, I burn out of repetition before gathering enough ingredients for a single item (took me two years to craft a Glass Cannon).

So even if Turbine make level 30 requires, I don't know, 10 million epic XP, my plan will stay the same: Get to cap running each quest once (twice if I really enjoy it), doing wilderness once to gather explorers and journals (and eventual slaying and rares on the path), then ETR and HTR. Start again. Usually it takes me two to four months to make this cycle (classes I enjoy tend to go faster), and maybe that is why I don't get burned of running always the same quests. Because when I run good old Waterworks for the uptenth time, it has been 2-4 months since I ran Waterworks, so nostalgia kicks in and I can enjoy it.

Axeyu
11-03-2015, 12:39 AM
Spin it however you want, if people feel the effort in TRing is too much this game dies. This is of course assuming the end-game will continue to be weak, who knows what we'll see at the 30 cap.

No. TRing used to be quite a pain, before BB and the exp curve rebelance. Yet the game did not die.

QuantumFX
11-03-2015, 01:34 AM
Varguile, something you guys might want to consider: Allow us to empty out multiple spheres for multiple PL feats on a single ETR. That way the XP we need to earn from 6,000,001 thru whatever you guys choose for the new cap doesn't feel like it's wasted.

IronClan
11-03-2015, 08:42 AM
No. TRing used to be quite a pain, before BB and the exp curve rebelance. Yet the game did not die.

During the time you're describing (pre BB) the game had a healthy end game raid scene, and it was commonplace to break up raiding by TR'ing and break up TR'ing by raiding. In fact more importantly when cap was raised with nothing to do it broke that forumla and DDO started a precipitous dive at a 33% attrition rate, about 22% steeper than industry average for MMO's. You're implying the TR system didn't lose any players or drive any away when they saw the only thing to do was TR and ETR and improve your character in tiny increments with nothing whatsoever to do with that TR'ed and ETR'ed character? and you're feeling confident in that assessment?

IMO the TR hamsterwheel with no end game is just like setting the leveling requirement of an MMO to 2-3 years max effort to reach cap and end game in a normal MMO.. In other words a tried and failed experiment, that lead to many an MMO shutting down or dramatically increasing it's leveling rate. DDO didn't have an end game for the last 3 years. In other words they set the bar for "finished progressing my character" so high that the inertia and friction were liable to discourage a fair percentage of players from even playing the game in the first place. Let alone continuing to TR and ETR after doing a few of them rubs your nose in just how pointless and unnecessary they are.

IMO the lack of end game coupled with this transparent hamsterwheel to no where; fooled a smaller percentage of players than the Forum intelligentsia wants to portray. True TR'ing was the only thing to do and so kept the doors from shutting completely but only having that to do, and having the bar set to 130million xp for Epic+Heroic completionist with nothing to do with such a character has resulted in the game dying a lot faster than it had to, had they maintained some form of end game reason to TR in balance with the hamsterwheel.

Together they were a great system to reduce fatigue, raiding fatigue one month, leveling fatigue the next month. When this became only TR'ing it just spun the attrition rate out of control like a tie fighter losing it's stabilizer on one side.

jalont
11-03-2015, 08:56 AM
IMO the lack of end game coupled with this transparent hamsterwheel to no where; fooled a smaller percentage of players than the Forum intelligentsia wants to portray.

Mmm, you're kind of right. The transparent hamsterwheel to nowhere is the problem, but it exists because the game is too easy. It will still exist when "endgame" is created if the game is still too easy. There's no point in grinding anything when the power isn't needed to overcome challenge. Endgame. No endgame. It doesn't matter without challenge.

IronClan
11-03-2015, 09:07 AM
I hope that devs read this post and think about it.

It was presented to them on the 2014 PC. Sadly the Dev's seem to think people ETR in off destinies for fun. The truth is people ETR in off destinies because they are forced to with nothing else in the game to do. This leads to EN 2X VON3/Wizking/Spies/Mirror daily LFM phenomenon where they simply log in do daily's and log out afterward as the most common way to compensate for not having fun in those destinies.

The problem has never been that those quests have great XP, the problem is that DDO is literally designed to be less fun for weeks and months at a time, and those quests are the path of least resistance in mitigating this unfun as quickly as possible with the lowest exposure time to the off destiny. The same way that standing on a bell minimized off Destiny XP exposure time, or cheezing the Drow priestess minimized it.

People do things the Dev's don't like, because the Dev's make systems the players don't enjoy so they just want to be done with it and get it out of the way.

The Dev's look at the symptoms (those quests) and say "we need to nerf that behavour" when they should be asking themselves what causes people to want to do that behavour. If the system of off destiny leveling was FUN a lot less people would be trying to mitigate it by running 4 to 8 EN's a day then logging.

Loromir
11-03-2015, 09:51 AM
This interesting, but doesn't answer any questions or calm any fears.

I still want to know how you plan to balance newer/casual players who are indirectly punished by not grinding out past lives this very moment?



If you really want to consider it punishment....then consider it punishment for being late to the game. In reality, most newer players won't remember what it was like to ETR at 28...so no worries. You could say that those who Heroic TR'd before the race for Power creep began in earnest were being punished as it is now much easier to Heroic TR than it was pre-MOTU. So there is that.

I really find it amusing that people playing a game can consider it punishment. I actually dread the day when I reach ultimate completionist...I'm afraid I won't have any incentive to continue playing. So, IMO the more they can do to extend my reason to keep playing...the better.

Jiirix
11-03-2015, 10:56 AM
How is it much quicker? It still has SAME 6.6 million karma requirements. It's not quicker at all.

I would be quicker because there are more and more epic quests and sagas. More epic quests = more XP form BB and first time boni.

How quick it will be to reach level 30 will not only be dependent on how many millons XP you need but on how many XP you get per new quest and saga. When epic TR was introduced in update 20 it took (me) some time to get from level 20-28 with the epic quests and sagas available back then. After that it got easier and quicker with every update. If getting from level 20 to 30 after update 29/30 would take the same time than getting from 20 to 28 took back in update 20 this would be fine with me.

My logic:

Getting from 20-28 in update 20 toke some time but people were mostly OK with it as far as I remember.
Getting from 20-28 in update 21-28 was quicker, same levels in less time - YAY
Getting from 20-30 from update 29+ takes the same time as 20-28 back in update 20 BUT you get two more level with feats and stuff in the same time - YAY again.

Eth
11-03-2015, 11:08 AM
During the time you're describing (pre BB) the game had a healthy end game raid scene, and it was commonplace to break up raiding by TR'ing and break up TR'ing by raiding. In fact more importantly when cap was raised with nothing to do it broke that forumla and DDO started a precipitous dive at a 33% attrition rate, about 22% steeper than industry average for MMO's. You're implying the TR system didn't lose any players or drive any away when they saw the only thing to do was TR and ETR and improve your character in tiny increments with nothing whatsoever to do with that TR'ed and ETR'ed character? and you're feeling confident in that assessment?

IMO the TR hamsterwheel with no end game is just like setting the leveling requirement of an MMO to 2-3 years max effort to reach cap and end game in a normal MMO.. In other words a tried and failed experiment, that lead to many an MMO shutting down or dramatically increasing it's leveling rate. DDO didn't have an end game for the last 3 years. In other words they set the bar for "finished progressing my character" so high that the inertia and friction were liable to discourage a fair percentage of players from even playing the game in the first place. Let alone continuing to TR and ETR after doing a few of them rubs your nose in just how pointless and unnecessary they are.

IMO the lack of end game coupled with this transparent hamsterwheel to no where; fooled a smaller percentage of players than the Forum intelligentsia wants to portray. True TR'ing was the only thing to do and so kept the doors from shutting completely but only having that to do, and having the bar set to 130million xp for Epic+Heroic completionist with nothing to do with such a character has resulted in the game dying a lot faster than it had to, had they maintained some form of end game reason to TR in balance with the hamsterwheel.

Together they were a great system to reduce fatigue, raiding fatigue one month, leveling fatigue the next month. When this became only TR'ing it just spun the attrition rate out of control like a tie fighter losing it's stabilizer on one side.

Well said.

IronClan
11-03-2015, 11:32 AM
2. Revise random loot system
Potential for incredibly powerful items (better than named items) but at incredibly low drop rates. So these items exist but can't be farmed, since they are rare and don't drop in known locations - so you might as well run your favorite quests, just run something (because no chests means no chance at awesome loot). The shock value of getting an uber item should be similar to that of getting a vorpal weapon when they were first introduced. This idea was discussed in another thread.

3. Legendary crafting recipes that are also incredibly rare and drop in any chest across range of content at endgame

I think the "introduce new content with set list of new named items with known chest locations" paradigm is a game killer.

I agree with this, the present static paradigm completely eliminates:

exploration (except the very first run without a leader who "knows it")
surprise
excitment
tension
mystery
exploration
unpredictability

All things that are synonymous with RPG's but completely non existent in DDO.

The problem is you wont find much support for these things on the DDO foums, very vocal players here do not want any excitement or unknowns or exploration they do not want unpredictable elements in their game. Just look at the backlash to champs and random affixes on named loot...

I don't understand it either but I expect it has something to do with a general lack of introspective understanding of whats fun about gaming. Predictability is comfortable, certainty of getting the exact loot you saw in the preview is comfortable and some people don't want a game that can't be memorized and made trivial through meta gaming.


There's definitely a lot of historical stuff going on here. No regrets.)

Varg I know you guys think I'm an a****** but I think you guys did the right thing under the circumstances, not having ETR would have had players leaving in droves, the heroic TR thing was played out, there was no end game. Sadly there's not enough resources for DDO to have gotten an end game area to balance out the ETR monotony and the unfun of doing off destiny ETR's is something you basically inherited from Purplefooz's Destiny system design.

Now if you could design this whole thing from the ground up would it be different? Of course, but no matter how critical I am (mostly directed as your and Sev's bosses tbh) I recognize that you guys are sometimes applying lipstick to not always the most delicate and refined of all possible recipients, and doing it under a time crunch.

Grosbeak07
11-03-2015, 12:24 PM
I agree with this, the present static paradigm completely eliminates:

exploration (except the very first run without a leader who "knows it")
surprise
excitment
tension
mystery
exploration
unpredictability

All things that are synonymous with RPG's but completely non existent in DDO.

The problem is you wont find much support for these things on the DDO foums, very vocal players here do not want any excitement or unknowns or exploration they do not want unpredictable elements in their game. Just look at the backlash to champs and random affixes on named loot...

I don't understand it either but I expect it has something to do with a general lack of introspective understanding of whats fun about gaming. Predictability is comfortable, certainty of getting the exact loot you saw in the preview is comfortable and some people don't want a game that can't be memorized and made trivial through meta gaming.



Varg I know you guys think I'm an a****** but I think you guys did the right thing under the circumstances, not having ETR would have had players leaving in droves, the heroic TR thing was played out, there was no end game. Sadly there's not enough resources for DDO to have gotten an end game area to balance out the ETR monotony and the unfun of doing off destiny ETR's is something you basically inherited from Purplefooz's Destiny system design.

Now if you could design this whole thing from the ground up would it be different? Of course, but no matter how critical I am (mostly directed as your and Sev's bosses tbh) I recognize that you guys are sometimes applying lipstick to not always the most delicate and refined of all possible recipients, and doing it under a time crunch.


I think you are a bit off here. I think many, if not most players would love for more randomization in the game, however that would likely require a completely new game engine, which i doubt is in the cards. The game in its current state, likely can't support what you (and I also) would like.

Just remember that the forums are often a poor representation of "players" in the game.

Grosbeak07
11-03-2015, 12:55 PM
You came late to the party suck it up and work like the rest before you did.




Ah yes.

Here is the thing. People won't and don't. They find different games and then people like you complain the servers are empty and no one is playing.

This means less money for the game.

Which in turn means less content, which in turn will lead to even less players until the game spirals to death.

So yes "just suck it up" is a recipe for success.

No one is asking (at least I'm not) for past lives to be 'given' to them as you keep saying. I just want a system that is friendlier to new and casual players and allow them to catch up and enjoy the same game experience you do, without having to 'buy' your way to the top through the store.

IronClan
11-03-2015, 01:08 PM
I think you are a bit off here. I think many, if not most players would love for more randomization in the game, however that would likely require a completely new game engine, which i doubt is in the cards. The game in its current state, likely can't support what you (and I also) would like.

Just remember that the forums are often a poor representation of "players" in the game.

I am agreeing with you, I am stating that randomization is highly unpopular on the forums. Who knows what an objective in game or email survey would find. The Dev's have specifically stated that they aren't willing to do more randomization because of the hostile reactions it's gotten in the past. This was BEFORE champs btw, where again another system that was intended to add some excitement and unpredictability was shouted down on the forums, and nerfed to the point of not actually adding any real unpredictability or excitement.

eGH's loot system is arguably second only to original shroud for promoting replay, Tor is still run today because it has multiple best in slot or previously best in slot items that have variable affixes that some vocal types really hate because they prefer their game be predictable. eGH is probably the best loot system in the entire game (it is IMO, Shroud being almost entirely crafting kinda doesn't count, though it's certainly the best longevity of any loot) it could be improved on, but very vocal players don't want excitement and suspense and unpredictability, they want to log in run the quest 3 times and pull the loot and then go off and do something else for a few months before having to play DDO again.

Sad but true man, just wait until the Meta-game brigade starts trolling these pro-random loot posts. It will happen it happens every time.

HAL
11-03-2015, 01:08 PM
If I were the devs at this point, I would be more worried about why the game has had the fun sucked out of it.

For whom besides you? Are you suggesting that they worry about 1 person?

IronClan
11-03-2015, 01:22 PM
For whom besides you? Are you suggesting that they worry about 1 person?

I would expect he is referring to the massive numbers of people who have flooded out of the game over the past 3 years, which probably comprise at a guess a lot more people than are still left stubbornly hanging on to the bitter end.

The audacity of suggesting that someone unhappy about the game is the only one just floors me. What kind of personal regimen does one need to maintain a perfectly non critical view of the game when even the Dev's themselves acknowledge having made mistakes? Hows that work?

Here's the facts of the matter: most people when unhappy DON'T COME HERE AND COMPLAIN, they simply don't log in any more. A WHOLE lot of people have done this since MOTU... 22% more than industry average, 21% more than Turbines other MMO LOTRO.

LOTRO got server merges, any guess why DDO didn't?

HAL
11-03-2015, 02:23 PM
im just wondering. have any of the devs done an etr? do you know how boring it is? do you know how painful it is when you are playing in a destiny that you just dont want to play in, or simply adds nothing to your build? do you know how uninteresting your 6000th en von3, wk, tbf, spies, etc is?

i get its our choice to etr, but when you offer as many big, sweet, tasty carrots as you do, you cant really blame us for playing the boring **** game. after all, its the character advancement that is appealing to us enough to make the decision to etr, not how much fun we are going to (not) have running ens til our eyes bleed.

I just don't get this. Yes you are to blame. I am not going to do something I don't like in a GAME. Games are to have FUN.

HAL
11-03-2015, 02:38 PM
I would expect he is referring to the massive numbers of people who have flooded out of the game over the past 3 years, which probably comprise at a guess a lot more people than are still left stubbornly hanging on to the bitter end.

The audacity of suggesting that someone unhappy about the game is the only one just floors me. What kind of personal regimen does one need to maintain a perfectly non critical view of the game when even the Dev's themselves acknowledge having made mistakes? Hows that work?

Here's the facts of the matter: most people when unhappy DON'T COME HERE AND COMPLAIN, they simply don't log in any more. A WHOLE lot of people have done this since MOTU... 22% more than industry average, 21% more than Turbines other MMO LOTRO.

LOTRO got server merges, any guess why DDO didn't?

I'm suggesting that he only has evidence for the feelings of one person. As you have no evidence of why all the people who left DDO have left. RL (time, money, etc.), a newer, shinier game, finding a hobby they prefer more, etc. are just a few of the reasons people might leave besides because DDO "isn't fun". "Haven't logged in" /= "unhappy with DDO".

Thrudh
11-03-2015, 02:50 PM
Because when I run good old Waterworks for the uptenth time, it has been 2-4 months since I ran Waterworks, so nostalgia kicks in and I can enjoy it.

This is me too... I do a heroic TR, then 2-3 epic TRs, then back to heroic... During the 2-3 epic TRs, I barely repeat anything. There's a ton of content in the 20-28 range, especially if you have reset all explorer/slayer areas.

Each TR takes me about a month...

So I run a heroic TR, get up to epic levels, run 2-3 epic TRs without repeating a quest, then heroic TR again... It is literally at least 3 months between each repeat of a quest for me. This game is not grindy at all with my playstyle... I change my character every heroic TR to something different and new, and the quests are not boring because I'm not repeating the same 30 best xp/min quests over and over every 5 days.

Thrudh
11-03-2015, 03:00 PM
It was presented to them on the 2014 PC. Sadly the Dev's seem to think people ETR in off destinies for fun. The truth is people ETR in off destinies because they are forced to with nothing else in the game to do. This leads to EN 2X VON3/Wizking/Spies/Mirror daily LFM phenomenon where they simply log in do daily's and log out afterward as the most common way to compensate for not having fun in those destinies.

The problem has never been that those quests have great XP, the problem is that DDO is literally designed to be less fun for weeks and months at a time, and those quests are the path of least resistance in mitigating this unfun as quickly as possible with the lowest exposure time to the off destiny. The same way that standing on a bell minimized off Destiny XP exposure time, or cheezing the Drow priestess minimized it.

People do things the Dev's don't like, because the Dev's make systems the players don't enjoy so they just want to be done with it and get it out of the way.

The Dev's look at the symptoms (those quests) and say "we need to nerf that behavour" when they should be asking themselves what causes people to want to do that behavour. If the system of off destiny leveling was FUN a lot less people would be trying to mitigate it by running 4 to 8 EN's a day then logging.

I always liked the heroic and epic TR past-life system because they were so front-loaded. Easy to get 80% of the benefits with very little work, but there was ALSO something for the power-gamers to do. The problem is that the power-gamers apparently believe they MUST have their characters "finished" or the game is no fun.

The rest of us understand that "grinding" to "finish" a character is not fun, so we just play the game normally, enjoying the game-play of the hundreds of different quests using different characters that play differently each time through... The powergamers play the same wk/spies/von3 or saga quests over and over and over, and then blame the devs for their ridiculous stupid choices. But maybe you are right. Maybe the devs should have designed the game differently recognizing that a subset of powergamers really just cannot help themselves and are helpless to avoid unfun activities.

Basura_Grande
11-03-2015, 03:15 PM
I always liked the heroic and epic TR past-life system because they were so front-loaded.

While that may have been true a few years ago that changed with ETR. Epic Completionist + all PRR, all damage, and all HP lives is more than a little more powerful. It's power addition is enough to break an semblance of class balance.

Ironclan's right on this, too much of this game is designed INTENTIONALLY to not be fun with the gratification delayed. ETRing in off-destinies just plain sucks, put enough stuff in a game like that and we should be shocked at DDO's rate of player attrition.

SoulDuster
11-03-2015, 03:22 PM
Ah yes.

Here is the thing. People won't and don't. They find different games and then people like you complain the servers are empty and no one is playing.

This means less money for the game.

Which in turn means less content, which in turn will lead to even less players until the game spirals to death.

So yes "just suck it up" is a recipe for success.

No one is asking (at least I'm not) for past lives to be 'given' to them as you keep saying. I just want a system that is friendlier to new and casual players and allow them to catch up and enjoy the same game experience you do, without having to 'buy' your way to the top through the store.

LoL you won't ever find me complaining the servers are empty. I run with a pretty solid group.

Considering all heroic lives are much easier to obtain than when I did how much friendlier do you want it for the ' new and casual ' crowd of players.....

XP boost days, Party XP, More slayers than ever, More F2P quests than ever, Daily Dice rolls, Slayer Pots, XP Pots - All No TP Required....

Easier How much easier do you want or need it. ---( Silver Platter )---

Otto boxes - Only item listed TP is needed for.

Something Earned is certainly worth more than something given. You want something go earn it. If you can't earn it you don't deserve it.

I rather enjoy playing my first life toons with no ED's and being fully capable of running EE quests. I didn't buy my way to the top. No one enjoys the game in the same way. Catch up ..... run faster if your racing ..... just cause you make it late to the Boston Marathon does not mean you get to handicap the people who got to the starting line first.

I'd be willing to bet I could run off a F2P toon to Heroic completionist in a single year with a single store purchase of 7.99 worth of points for Premium player only. Filling in ED's and obtaining my Epic completionist during the same time regardless of xp required. Only points I get to spend are what I obtain from Favor.

This sounds like and interesting challenge perhaps once I am prepared I will not only attempt this but certainly achieve it.

This would mean 15 heroic TR and 12 Etr no need for iconics those are optional.

Artificer needs 150 House C Favor - Free daily tokens no need to buy the class

Favored Soul 2500 Favor - Free class to play

Druid catch it on sale - Favor TP point purchase

Warlock catch it on sale - Favor TP point purchase

no need for 32 point build at start easy enough to get to 3rd life with no TP points spent.

Catch ED's on sale - Favor TP point purchase.

Any other packs on sale with favor TP point purchase.

I think this might be interesting to do a server with no guild, friends or people to drag me along as well. After all that would indeed set me up a truely new player.

Sure I know the quests, the xp locations but you have access to the wiki just like me.

Heading off to do some research for my next challenge I guess

I would also purchase WF for my own reasons. So at full TP pricing less than 6k TP to get premium I get 600 TP with 20% off sales I could obtain all my needs for this wtih free TP reaching 2500 favor over 7 lives and never spend another dime on DDO. Very easy very doable for anyone with the time that wants to put the effort forward. No extra packs but my base needs are met. After all wants, needs, desires, are not all that important to obtaining what your asking for. KISS... Keep It Simple Stupid is tried and true.

Care for a new challenge. SoulDuster's search for simplicity.

The kiss of death more xp needs will kill P2P DDO

Heroic XP curve dropped all Heroic XP needed by approximately 13.5%

Epic XP curve could be upped by about 13.5% and this sets level 30 xp at roughly 7.5mil

Not saying this is what should or will happened but it is fair in my eyes.

Thrudh
11-03-2015, 04:01 PM
While that may have been true a few years ago that changed with ETR. Epic Completionist + all PRR, all damage, and all HP lives is more than a little more powerful. It's power addition is enough to break an semblance of class balance.

Maxing out EDs for fate points and twists, and even getting epic completionist isn't hard and gives you 80% of the power... Going on to max out the passive boosts (more hp, more PRR, etc) takes 2x as long for just 20% more benefit.

The game is so easy, none of that is required.



Ironclan's right on this, too much of this game is designed INTENTIONALLY to not be fun with the gratification delayed. ETRing in off-destinies just plain sucks, put enough stuff in a game like that and we should be shocked at DDO's rate of player attrition.

I think the devs thought they were being nice by putting it in so powergamers would have some extra gains while TRing farther than most of us... What they didn't realize was that powergamers would be compelled to do it, and ruin their own fun, night after night.

Also it's very easy to meta-game around off-destiny leveling... I'm amazed how BAD some powergamers are at meta-gaming this game... Who actually grinds through 3-9 arcane lives as a melee? Use saga xp there, slayer/explorer xp (There's a ton of this!), an occasional spies/wiz-king/von3 run (you don't have to do these every night!). First-time challenges give out good xp. The new Mabar event handed out a decent amount of xp, especially the first run through, and the quests are so easy you could easily do them in an off-destiny.

The real trick is to alternate running in your primary destiny with the stuff above in the off-destiny. For some reason some powergamers think they have to get 6 million exp straight in off-destiny and then come here and complain about it.

I'm not saying the system couldn't be improved... I think the suggestion that people could gain off-destiny xp (once all EDs are capped) at 25% or something while in your primary destiny is a good one.

But even with the current system there's no reason to have zero fun night after night after night grinding. There are easy workarounds for anyone who takes 10 seconds to think about it.

Basura_Grande
11-03-2015, 04:04 PM
Maxing out EDs for fate points and twists, and even getting epic completionist isn't hard and gives you 80% of the power... Going on to max out the passive boosts (more hp, more PRR, etc) takes 2x as long for just 20% more benefit.

You're dismissing 9 EPLs as nothing - and you pretend to be a casual player? :)

Come to the darkside!!!!!

EllisDee37
11-03-2015, 04:13 PM
Epic XP curve could be upped by about 13.5% and this sets level 30 xp at roughly 7.5mil

Not saying this is what should or will happened but it is fair in my eyes.Agreed. I think 7.5 million to get to 30 is what it should be.

Anaximandroz
11-03-2015, 04:18 PM
I only thinks the xp from 28 to 30 will feel wasted, because what you want is 6 millions karma to Er (if you are in the tr train that 600k over already feel that way). Maybe if they make the cap 8 million and give one more destiny n each sphere...

sjbb87
11-03-2015, 04:58 PM
Some points...
The turbine made it clear that with the epic reincarnations, when I got to level 30 would also rise to the level ER.
Already "late" a year that increase the level to 30.
If not picked up their Epic past life ... I am sorry ....

But I believe it should rebalance the xp curve

Gljosh
11-03-2015, 05:34 PM
The way I have played this game....

Pre Motu play to 20 get some more favor, skip raids Heroic TR.
Post Motu play to 25, max out Destinies while getting my 20 Shroud completions, Heroic TR.
Post ETR, play to 28-ETR, play to 28 ETR, pay to 28 ETR, play to 28 ETR (currently I have 9/7/7/5 for ETRs), while getting some Raid completion, ITR or Heroic TR. Finally got 20 FoTs, close to 20 Chronos, far away from 20 Thunder Peaks.

ETRs made a great way for me to run more of the Epic Raids. I play on Orien and it gets hard to fill out raids (when I am playing) once the raid is a few months old, thank you Raid Bypass timers.

I am still waiting to hear the "benefit of raising the level cap". The current complaints are that most content is easy, how would adding two more levels of player power fix this? I remember quests being "end game" and once the level cap was raised they became laughably easier. Old Shroud runs almost required 2 healers and post in chat boss beaters for hard, now as long as you can cast Cocoon and have someone toss out some scrolls Elite is a cake walk.

eachna_gislin
11-04-2015, 11:38 AM
If you're not a reigning monarch is is HIGHLY inappropriate to use the words "us" and "we" to describe YOUR PERSONAL opinion. Speak for yourself and ONLY for yourself.

Under both British and American English standard usage rules, it's appropriate to use the plural to indicate an individual is part of a group. They do not have to be a designated speaker for the group.

RobbinB
11-04-2015, 12:37 PM
You're dismissing 9 EPLs as nothing - and you pretend to be a casual player? :)

Come to the darkside!!!!!

Truth. If I played only a single character, I would have about 25 epic past lives (so epic completionist and then some, yay!). Since I am compelled to play multiple characters (10 in total) because I like to have fun, the most EPLs I have on any one character is currently 6, so only half way to epic completionist. (And this pace will definitely slow down if they simply add a boat-load of xp per past-life.)

I play for an hour or 2 at least 6 days I week so I don't consider that casual either.

RobbinB
11-04-2015, 12:48 PM
Varguile, something you guys might want to consider: Allow us to empty out multiple spheres for multiple PL feats on a single ETR. That way the XP we need to earn from 6,000,001 thru whatever you guys choose for the new cap doesn't feel like it's wasted.

I would definitely be ok with this and if they did this I wouldn't complain any longer about having to earn 2 extra levels before ETR becomes an option (although I think some players would still not be happy).

One of the things I hate about ETR is I have to spend the equivalent of one night of game time just going through that process, which really sucks when sometimes I'm just recreating the exact same toon. Having to do that 4 times less often would actually be pretty cool.

elvesunited
11-04-2015, 05:10 PM
Well I've Iconic Reincarnated one high level and Epic-True Comboed another. So my highest level character currently is 23. So here is my hopes for the cap increase.

1) It isn't another false alarm.
2) That items max out minimum level at 28. Give us at least 2 levels to enjoy them before capping out.
3) New feats. Epic Destiny or otherwise. ( maybe some that require all three destinies in a sphere to be capped )
Example : Mythic spell focus : +2 DC ( requires level 29 + Epic spell focus )
4) Extra reward for iconic/true reincarnating from 30. ( maybe 2 extra build points to a max of 38 )

Starla70
11-05-2015, 12:22 AM
A heads up as to when this will happen is much needed I agree.

Kieriyn
11-08-2015, 12:25 AM
This interesting, but doesn't answer any questions or calm any fears.

I still want to know how you plan to balance newer/casual players who are indirectly punished by not grinding out past lives this very moment?

This is a false equivalence- lack of a temporary benefit does not equal punishment.

The fact is that we've known for some time that this was coming, and the devs are just giving us the courtesy of an explicit warning so we can get a couple of ETRs in before the cap goes up. The same kind of demands for accommodations were made when the level cap went up from 20 to 25 for Cannith Crafting weapons whose ML should have exceeded 20, but was capped. People whined that Turbine had. to. do. something. when they announced that the 1st new base in awhile (Artificer) was released- even though they knew ahead of time that the completionist feat would disappear when new classes came out until they finished the additional life. Turbine did the right thing and stuck to their guns in those instances, and hopefully will again.

S3R3N1T7
11-08-2015, 06:13 AM
think it's time for me leave ddo because

monster chmpion splint new time player (stupidely implemented for content small portion of player elitist (no option for actived them if player want play with them because they know mass player don't want play with them)

and now lvl 30 splint new time player (new time elitist player will be happy but casual player leave the game now because they understand the game will become only for elitist player )

now ddo is not fun and i leave the game i will come show if they understand the error they do and correct the line of developpement or not ^^


because a mmo rpg need lot of player or he die and ddo is on on the die road

i have take good time with this game but champion kill my fun and know i show the lvl 30 who will broke definitively interaction with casual player, normal player and elitiste player.

noinfo
11-08-2015, 06:29 AM
Further back, https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425596-Paradigm-Shift-how-we-are-looking-at-Epic-Reincarnation?p=5100345&viewfull=1#post5100345

I'm open to change. How about the L30 cap be scrapped altogether and leave things as they are and direct those energies to more new content?

Or go ahead with the level cap increase and scrap TR etc all together? No?

Sorry many of us want something to do at end game and progressing that does NOT involve regression.

dunklezhan
11-08-2015, 07:18 AM
I always liked the heroic and epic TR past-life system because they were so front-loaded. Easy to get 80% of the benefits with very little work, but there was ALSO something for the power-gamers to do. The problem is that the power-gamers apparently believe they MUST have their characters "finished" or the game is no fun.

The rest of us understand that "grinding" to "finish" a character is not fun, so we just play the game normally, enjoying the game-play of the hundreds of different quests using different characters that play differently each time through... The powergamers play the same wk/spies/von3 or saga quests over and over and over, and then blame the devs for their ridiculous stupid choices. But maybe you are right. Maybe the devs should have designed the game differently recognizing that a subset of powergamers really just cannot help themselves and are helpless to avoid unfun activities.

You just put into words what I've suspected for a good long while (though I'm not sure I'd be quite so critical of others' choices, personally, those powerlevel folk seem to be enjoying themselves to me everywhere except the forums). Bolded section describes me. Drives some of my guildies nuts because I haven't built up the power levels required to blast my way through EE and yet I simply don't seem to care about levelling as fast as possible in order to do that by running what they sometimes now describe as 'dailies' - by which they mean VoN, WizKing, Spies.

As it happens, for similar reasons I don't care about tiny incremental gains like spooky augments either, that's also a mystery to the powergamey set. I've tried to explain that unless I can gain another +6-8 to relevant stats from somewhere first, +2 is going to be irrelevant to me as I don't have a multi-life caster, decked out with tomes and gear anyway let alone in Epic. In heroic I dont' ahve problems with my DCs and such and can't use those augments, so Epic is the only place the resultant +1DC might matter, except that it's epic, so it will only matter after I've got some of my casters past their 2nd and 3rd lives at least, and after Turbine have done a caster pass. We don't know what that will look like yet so even that's a big assumption. That's my casters. I can use a +2 spooky for an assassin though, right? Well, sure, but I can't imagine my 1st life assassin with a +2 tome at L23 is going to care about another +1 assassinate DC since its still not going to work unless they roll a 1 on their save most of the time by all accounts. "But you can keep those augments till you do have someone!" sure, but by the time that happens we'll have had another two or three night revels, assuming the game is still here. So why take up the bank space? "I'll get there eventually, and will cope till then, for now I'd rather have something useful now" is utterly incomprehensible thinking to at least one guildie I know, and he's not even that powergamey :)

On that note, I really fail to understand why those augments couldn't have been ML4 (min level to run Revels). I mean +2 to a stat? Really? Is it that powergamey even at L1?

Silverleafeon
11-08-2015, 05:09 PM
According to Cordo's live cast on Friday this topic is under discussion with Player's Council as well as internal discussions atm.


Agreed. I think 7.5 million to get to 30 is what it should be.

Aye I agree, but willing to go as high as 8 million (top barter).

Shoemaker
11-08-2015, 08:00 PM
Okay... So, I've done the maths...




Level
Current System
Proposed System
Scaled to make new 30 == current 28


Increment =
150K per level
125K per level
101.53846K per level


Base for
level 21
times 2
is increment


21
300,000 / 300,000
250,00 / 250,000
203,077 / 203,077


22
450,000 / 750,000
375,000 / 625,000
304,615 / 507,692


23
600,000 / 1,350,000
500,000 / 1,125,000
406,154 / 913,846


24
750,000 / 2,100,000
625,000 / 1,750,000
507,692 / 1,421,538


25
900,000 / 3,000,000
750,000 / 2,500,000
609,231 / 2,030,769


26
1,150,000 / 4,150,000
875,000 / 3,375,000
710,769 / 2,741,538


27
1,300,000 / 5,450,000
1,000,000 / 4,375,000
812,308 / 3,553,846


28
1,450,000 / 6,600,000
1,125,000 / 5,500,000
913,846 / 4,467,692


29
1,600,000 / 8,200,000
1,250,000 / 6,750,000
1,015,385 / 5,483,077


30
1,750,000 / 9,950,000
1,375,000 / 8,125,000
1,116,923 / 6,600,000



So, my proposal is that they shave 25K off per level (doubled for 21 of course). Using my proposed system, level 29 will still be above the current level 28 (even if only by 150K) and I don't think that 1.375M is too much XP to get from 29 to 30 (it's less than the current 1.45M to get from 27 to 28). This proposal will also make up for some of the XP lost by being unable to bank it waiting for this cap increase.


According to Cordo's live cast on Friday this topic is under discussion with Player's Council as well as internal discussions atm.



Agreed. I think 7.5 million to get to 30 is what it should be.

Aye I agree, but willing to go as high as 8 million (top barter).

Looks like we're cycling back to my proposal of 125K per level increment which is just a shim over 8M (8.125M) per to get to 30. I had actually considered suggesting bumping it to 135K per level increment which would be 8.775M total XP, but the suggestions here that it should be around 7.5M total at about 115K per level has convinced me that my original proposal is just about spot on.

EllisDee37
11-08-2015, 08:13 PM
Looks like we're cycling back to my proposal of 125K per level increment which is just a shim over 8M (8.125M) per to get to 30. I had actually considered suggesting bumping it to 135K per level increment which would be 8.775M total XP, but the suggestions here that it should be around 7.5M total at about 115K per level has convinced me that my original proposal is just about spot on.I could live with your 125k increment plan.

Iriale
11-09-2015, 07:20 AM
Or go ahead with the level cap increase and scrap TR etc all together? No?

Sorry many of us want something to do at end game and progressing that does NOT involve regression.
This. We have heroic TR (which works very well) for regression. Repeat the same formula en epics is unimaginative and boooring. Devs should have created the past life feats as “epic mastery feats” instead “past lives feats” and give them for playing in the cap completing raids and quests EH/EE. This could have been a wonderful tool for reactivating the raiding scene. The actual ETR cycle is a stupid and boring cycle.

DDO is the only game that I know that penalises to have a toon in the cap. We need a end game, not other TR system. With the heroic one is enough.

Iriale
11-09-2015, 07:26 AM
While that may have been true a few years ago that changed with ETR. Epic Completionist + all PRR, all damage, and all HP lives is more than a little more powerful. It's power addition is enough to break an semblance of class balance.

Ironclan's right on this, too much of this game is designed INTENTIONALLY to not be fun with the gratification delayed. ETRing in off-destinies just plain sucks, put enough stuff in a game like that and we should be shocked at DDO's rate of player attrition.
This. Devs have implementad the whole thing to be boring. Why? A game should be fun. Players leave an unfun game. This is a game, not a job!

Two TR systems, for what? One is enough and great for a change when you are bored of the cap. The other should have been a system for to play in the cap.

RobbinB
11-09-2015, 01:01 PM
This is a false equivalence- lack of a temporary benefit does not equal punishment.

The fact is that we've known for some time that this was coming, and the devs are just giving us the courtesy of an explicit warning so we can get a couple of ETRs in before the cap goes up. The same kind of demands for accommodations were made when the level cap went up from 20 to 25 for Cannith Crafting weapons whose ML should have exceeded 20, but was capped. People whined that Turbine had. to. do. something. when they announced that the 1st new base in awhile (Artificer) was released- even though they knew ahead of time that the completionist feat would disappear when new classes came out until they finished the additional life. Turbine did the right thing and stuck to their guns in those instances, and hopefully will again.

This is intellectual dishonesty. You know he is saying he is feeling punished rather than actually thinking the devs are specifically punishing new players just for fun. We all know what he is talking about - doing TR's now translates to less xp needed than doing those same TR's later if the devs stick to their plan. So there will be lack of equivalency for players who are either new or like to take their time versus players who grind out all their past lives now. The fact that "we knew this was coming (assuming not newbie)" doesn't change this point. And "we knew this was coming" does not prevent the devs from exercising logic and changing or modifying their plans.

Hopefully, Turbine does the right thing and modifies their recent plans, returning to their original plan of "DDO being the non-grindy MMO".

Basura_Grande
11-09-2015, 01:14 PM
Give me an end game and I won't give a hoot about the XP going up. But if the game is going to remain nothing but TRing/ETRing I suspect you'll have many unhappy customers.

Uska
11-09-2015, 03:39 PM
Looks like we're cycling back to my proposal of 125K per level increment which is just a shim over 8M (8.125M) per to get to 30. I had actually considered suggesting bumping it to 135K per level increment which would be 8.775M total XP, but the suggestions here that it should be around 7.5M total at about 115K per level has convinced me that my original proposal is just about spot on.

I think 8 milion or a shade over is a good place to put it .

BeccaBop
11-10-2015, 06:55 AM
Has anyone already suggested just making 28 the "ETR cap," allowing people to still just ETR at 28, and ignore how much it takes to get to 30 for TR-type purposes?

There's the "break point" at 20 for heroic TRs. Why not just have another break point at 28 for IconicTR / ETR?

S3R3N1T7
11-10-2015, 07:47 AM
when lvl 30 come on this condition

i predict people player decraise 3 month later ;)

you will be happy play on a game with no fun player i think you think ddo is a work not a game lol it's so stupide because game was do for take good time and fun. Sorry i'm not sadomasoshist same more player ;)

Uska
11-10-2015, 11:37 AM
Has anyone already suggested just making 28 the "ETR cap," allowing people to still just ETR at 28, and ignore how much it takes to get to 30 for TR-type purposes?

There's the "break point" at 20 for heroic TRs. Why not just have another break point at 28 for IconicTR / ETR?

ETR was always suppose to be cap period!

RobbinB
11-10-2015, 12:39 PM
ETR was always suppose to be cap period!

Stop with the ridiculous "ETR has to be at cap" mantra aleady.

ETR at cap is not gravity. It's not a physical law of the universe. It's not like the devs are saying "well, given the much longer time than we first intended to move the cap from 28 to 30 I can see how some people are pointing out that newer players or those slower to ETR will now have a harder path, but....we simply can't do anything about that...we hardwired it into the code that ETR always could only happen at cap....and if anyone tried to change that code we put in a failsafe whereby all the servers would implode....so we'd like to, but we simply can't...it's not possible".

They had an original plan...but plans can and do change. It happens all the time in the real world. Trust me, it does.

Uska
11-10-2015, 03:09 PM
Stop with the ridiculous "ETR has to be at cap" mantra aleady.

ETR at cap is not gravity. It's not a physical law of the universe. It's not like the devs are saying "well, given the much longer time than we first intended to move the cap from 28 to 30 I can see how some people are pointing out that newer players or those slower to ETR will now have a harder path, but....we simply can't do anything about that...we hardwired it into the code that ETR always could only happen at cap....and if anyone tried to change that code we put in a failsafe whereby all the servers would implode....so we'd like to, but we simply can't...it's not possible".

They had an original plan...but plans can and do change. It happens all the time in the real world. Trust me, it does.

Its not changing the only question is how much exp is going to cost

curboUS
11-17-2015, 01:40 AM
Another way to keep the 6.6mil/eTR is to just remove 6.6mil from the xp the character have when eTR'ing.
That would mean that a lv30 with (let's say) 9.950.000 xp would after etR start at 3.350.000xp (let's call this the eTR starting point).
This would work at lv 32 etc.

When doing an Iconic TR start at lv15 as now, when you hit 20 you are gain the xp needed to get to the eTR starting point.
When a capped TR (say from 30 to 20 and 20 to new life), when you hit 20 you are gain the xp needed to get to the eTR starting point.

This would in effect skip a few epic levels every time we TR from cap. Question is - does it really matter? i dont think so tbh.

For 1rst life character there is a longer way to cap - but only once.

As long as the the game have the eTR cycle i think it should cap the xp required (in this case 6.6mil) regardless of of the actual epic levels in the game.

Obviously just redoing the epic xp-curve to 6.6mil for all epic levels is the best solution imo.
The above suggestion is in case the developers don't want to do that.

GlassCannon
01-28-2016, 06:18 PM
ETR was always suppose to be cap period!

Sorry, but that's downright mean.

It's mean to the new folks and those who roll up a new character.

It needs to stay at 28 to be fair to everyone.

Uska
01-28-2016, 07:31 PM
Sorry, but that's downright mean.

It's mean to the new folks and those who roll up a new character.

It needs to stay at 28 to be fair to everyone.

No it is cap and that is fair and no even though I have been here forever I don't have epic completionist so I have about as much work as anyone new only less inclination