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View Full Version : DDOCast 403 - Raid Caliber Tanks



pjstechie
10-25-2015, 03:35 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3RIHOJnWeo

Voodu Spyce & Chai join Patrick for a lengthy discussion about Raid Caliber Tank! We talk about build ideas, skills to work on, and how to becoming a great tanking player! We also talk about the U28.1 release, balance changes, and the Night Revels Preview!

Have thoughts on this show, ideas for round table topics, questions you want to ask us, or topics you’d like to see us debate? Leave us a comment, send us an email (ddocast@gmail.com) or give us a tweet (@ddocast)!

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Raid Caliber Tanks - 2:25
Should a tank be your first character? - 1:04:45
News - 1:19:20
The Night Revels - 1:36:22
Lightning Post & Closing - 1:54:15

U28.1 Release Notes (https://www.ddo.com/en/update-28-patch-1-release-notes)
The Night Revels Guide (https://www.ddo.com/en/night-revels-guide)
Saga of Amastris: Date with Evil (https://amastrisddo.wordpress.com/2015/10/22/a-date-with-evil/)
Order of Syncletica: Zen Balance (https://orderofsyncletica.wordpress.com/2015/10/23/zen-balance-2-electric-boogaloo/)
Axel DDO: Update 28 Review (https://youtu.be/4jfJ09jDfsw)
Voodu: Night Revels (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSK8Qg1v0hw)
Shady Rogues: Tide Turns (https://youtu.be/pOGHDO5l_aU)
Ditrywilliamwj: Update 28.1 (https://youtu.be/Qexda-LpP3w)

-- Watch live at http://www.twitch.tv/ddocast

Livmo
10-26-2015, 03:19 PM
Another great show, but 16 is not my number!

Perhaps I should solo instead, but I grouped and only got 3 keys in hour and I was very active killing stuff:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467001-I-Have-NO-Words?p=5711872&viewfull=1#post5711872

At that rate (from my post above) of drops I'm looking at needing 24 key to complete an item. At 3 an hour, 24/3= 8 hours of game play for just the keys.

No way can I make an augment of pumkin cosmetic hat in an hour.

Based on my play experience Friday night I would like to see the Key drop rate increased. However, I will see if I can do better on the keys by running solo instead, and same for the challenges, when it comes back out.

I would like an option to get keys from ingrediant trade in like Crystal Cove.

Basura_Grande
10-26-2015, 03:35 PM
This game still has need for tanks? Serious question, we run every raid on EE weekly and haven't seen a dedicated tank in years.

Who's the target audience for the podcast?

Grosbeak07
10-26-2015, 03:40 PM
This game still has need for tanks? Serious question, we run every raid on EE weekly and haven't seen a dedicated tank in years.

Who's the target audience for the podcast?

You assume there is only one way to do something?

You are correct tanks are not common and are generally not needed, but if you want to build one and raid with it, who is to stop it? So a discussion on what would be an ideal tank build for a raid isn't a bad idea.

Basura_Grande
10-26-2015, 03:45 PM
You assume there is only one way to do something?


Of course not, there are always multiple ways to accomplish a task but best practices exist because . . . . wait for it . . . they are BEST PRACTICES. And a "tank" hasn't been a best practice for anything since at least the level 28 increase.

I was just curious if I was in another time warp, being back to the future week and all that.

Gljosh
10-26-2015, 04:33 PM
I tank all the time, especially when I late join Devil's Assault.

That's tank right?

When you sit at the quest entrance and get XP?

pjstechie
10-26-2015, 09:45 PM
Of course not, there are always multiple ways to accomplish a task but best practices exist because . . . . wait for it . . . they are BEST PRACTICES. And a "tank" hasn't been a best practice for anything since at least the level 28 increase.

I was just curious if I was in another time warp, being back to the future week and all that.

Tanks are absolutely still a widely used practice in raiding. "Tank" does not mean a heavy armor shield bearing character, and we made mention of several alternatives.

Basura_Grande
10-26-2015, 09:46 PM
Tanks are absolutely still a widely used practice in raiding.

No, they are not.

Holymunchkin
10-26-2015, 09:51 PM
Tanks are absolutely still a widely used practice in raiding. "Tank" does not mean a heavy armor shield bearing character, and we made mention of several alternatives.

lol

pjstechie
10-26-2015, 10:19 PM
No, they are not.

how then do you deal with the stormreaver in fall of truth? Almost every group ive run for that (and not just ones i lead) utilize a tank for the stormreaver.

fire peaks and deathwyrm are also very commonly utilizing tanks.

again, note that tank is a ROLE not a build in this case. It is the person holding agro so that the rest of the party can fulfill other roles.

Basura_Grande
10-26-2015, 10:25 PM
how then do you deal with the stormreaver in fall of truth? Almost every group ive run for that (and not just ones i lead) utilize a tank for the stormreaver.

beat him down on a normal melee.



fire peaks and deathwyrm are also very commonly utilizing tanks.

Beat them down on a normal melee or have ranged toons kite them.

Eth
10-27-2015, 09:03 AM
My take on tanking in current raids...

Fire on Thunder Peaks
No tanks required. What you want is someone with high intim or ruin to make it easy to seperate them.
If your approach is to "tank" them in a classic way, by standing in one spot, while taking a beating, you are doing it wrong.
You can tank the dragons like a classic tank in every phase that requires the party to DPS them, if you want to draw some damage off your melees. That is fine.
The only exception is after the double elemental beatdown, where first Nevalarich has the damage buff, which later switches. Just play it smart here and put your DPS on Thraxata first and switch your melee DPS as soon as you hear the DM text to Nevalarich. From that beatdown on, once you enter the artifact phase, all your "tank" requires is someone that can operate WASD. "Shield block tanking" is just an unneccassary risk here.

Deathwyrm
A tank is nice to have here, but the dragon isn't dangerous enough to require a dedicated tank. Usually a well built DPS will do.
I did EE on my barbarian a couple of times and had no issues tanking her, despite not being build for tanking at all (offense before defense in that sense for that build).
Kiting is also fine.

MoD
It's nice to have someone keeping Vol away from the party. Again, this doesn't require a tank. Someone that's quick to grab aggro, since she resets a lot that can operate WASD.
Deathknights - see Deathwyrm. Any proper DPS build that can suck up an adrenaline hit will do the job.

DoJ
If you have low DPS, that can't take down the worm in the end fight, it's nice to have someone "tank" him. Again this doesn't require a tank. Have someone with ranged DPS grab the aggro and dodge the attacks by using your keyboard keys.

Having an intim tank to grab devils can also be nice, if you can't one round her. Not neccessary though by any means.

FoT
When this was still considered hard on EE, I've mainly see monkchers kiting the TO. A proper tank could do the job though (if he managed to keep aggro against monkchers, lol).
Stormreaver? Not so much. If we go with the classic formular of more defense = less DPS, I'd even say it's bad to put your tankiest toon here. Since you want to keep the people working on him as low as possible, this job should be done by your best DPS, not a tank (if he can handle the boom etc.).
Ideally this person would have the reaver preped solo by the time the rest preps the TO.


TL;DR: The last raid that required a classic tank, which was also a ton of fun to tank, was LoB.





again, note that tank is a ROLE not a build in this case. It is the person holding agro so that the rest of the party can fulfill other roles.
If that's your definition of a tank, then yes, the game still has tanks. Absolutely.

Dedicated builds that fill the role as tanks are dead though.
We used to have raids in the past were people built dedicated tanks just for those raids (Hound, VoD, ToD, Chrono for example). That's not the case anymore.

FestusHood
10-27-2015, 10:22 AM
Tanks, as well as healers and crowd control can help average players over achieve. The reason the strongest players don't need these roles is because their characters tend to be overpowered for the content they are running.

Not just talking about raids.

Grosbeak07
10-27-2015, 10:44 AM
beat him down on a normal melee.



Beat them down on a normal melee or have ranged toons kite them.


and how many past lives does a "normal" melee have?

A big (nay, massive) problem with DDO is how the games population are insular to each other. We all run with people who are by and large like us, so your idea of "normal" and my idea of "normal" could be two vastly different things.

Weaker players and guilds can't tank the Stormreaver or dragons as a "normal" melee, I think it is unreasonable to expect everyone to play at your character and skill level. Using a tank in those situations isn't a bad idea. If they accomplish the raid, who cares how you did it? (Non exploit of course)

i'm not sure why you are resisting this idea so much. A tank is a VIABLE option, even if it is not needed or isn't "best" practice. If your group or guild needs a tank to accomplish these raids, so be it. Tank away, have fun and enjoy your loot.

Basura_Grande
10-27-2015, 10:49 AM
i'm not sure why you are resisting this idea so much. A tank is a VIABLE option, even if it is not needed or isn't "best" practice. If your group or guild needs a tank to accomplish these raids, so be it. Tank away, have fun and enjoy your loot.

Giving bad advice to new players doesn't help them, it just perpetuates the cycle of bad players staying bad.

Basura_Grande
10-27-2015, 10:54 AM
and how many past lives does a "normal" melee have?


Lots, what the heck else do we have to do in a game with so little end-game? Packing on PLs is the thing to do
but it's not as needed as some people think, generally I find that used as an excuse for being bad at the game.



A big (nay, massive) problem with DDO is how the games population are insular to each other. We all run with people who are by and large like us, so your idea of "normal" and my idea of "normal" could be two vastly different things.

So copy the ideas from those actually excelling in the game, look at what the people with the speed records are doing as ask them, the same tactics will work with lesser players, just slower.



Weaker players and guilds can't tank the Stormreaver or dragons as a "normal" melee, I think it is unreasonable to expect everyone to play at your character and skill level. Using a tank in those situations isn't a bad idea. If they accomplish the raid, who cares how you did it? (Non exploit of course)

Nonsense. ANY paladin can do it with basic gear on EE. If you've been playing more that 6 months that's not a difficult challenge. You want to talk about EE Defiler or Mod that's a different story, but FOT? a 3 year old encounter?

Faltout
10-27-2015, 03:41 PM
Why does noone mention Caught in the Web? I'd be really interested to hear what does a tank need to survive Lolth (except for a healer of course :p).

Eth
10-28-2015, 05:28 AM
Why does noone mention Caught in the Web? I'd be really interested to hear what does a tank need to survive Lolth (except for a healer of course :p).

Spell absorption and silver flame pots is all you need.

Faltout
10-28-2015, 06:33 AM
Spell absorption and silver flame pots is all you need.
Right. Take those and go beat the whole game lol.
Seriously though, spell absorption can't last for the lolth fight and there's also the possibility of spiders spawning behind you that are not subject to spell absorption.

I've seen much more consistent wipes in EE CitW than in any other raid (even FoT that you require a tank for SR). It's where you need tactics and tanks the most and yet people seem to take it very lightly (maybe the reason of the wipes? lol). There isn't even a decent wiki entry for the raid. Many of the stuff in the wiki are wrong.

pjstechie
10-29-2015, 01:28 AM
Giving bad advice to new players doesn't help them, it just perpetuates the cycle of bad players staying bad.

I greatly dispute that teaching players, old or new, about tanking is bad advice.

I would in fact argue that most raids I run outside of my normal circles are teaching players "bad advice." I see a lot of groups that are sloppy, disorganized and uninformed. My stance with leading raids has always been to teach "proper" mechanics even on a lower difficulty so that when players do move up to challenge themselves they have those mechanics and knowledge at their disposal, even if they choose not to use it. Perhaps they may also find that they use less resources. And frankly I find a raid to be generally more exciting, satisfying and fun when it is well executed than just brute forced.

Its true that most raiding parties don't tend to utilize the traditional MMO "tank build" and I'm not trying to say that they are. However many players do still want to build tanks, and even if they dont, tanking is a solid skill to have. Even on a "normal" melee build you can tank (again, tank being a ROLE not a BUILD) and many of the topics we covered were about skills for tanking not just building for "typical" tank build.

I further recognize that when covering topics like this that many of my listeners won't find the topic very useful or helpful. My hope is that even if they dont, they may send others our way, spread the word about DDOCast and maybe even find a thing or two they can stick in their back pocket. Its truly difficult to find a topic that is really for everyone (if you have ideas I'd love to hear them!)

pjstechie
10-29-2015, 01:31 AM
Why does noone mention Caught in the Web? I'd be really interested to hear what does a tank need to survive Lolth (except for a healer of course :p).

It was in our outline to go through the raids, but we were not lacking in points of discussion so we are planning to go through them at a future date.

having said that, CitW is a raid you wont see much in the way of tanking.

pjstechie
10-29-2015, 01:45 AM
My take on tanking in current raids...



by my line of thinking (and I mentioned this on the show briefly) there is a difference between kiting and tanking. A couple of the raids and tactics you mention highlight this. Peaks and FoT are probably the more prominent ones.

Tanking is where someone (and this can be someone with a bow running around) is holding aggro such that other players are able to apply DPS and kill the particular monster. Note that the "tank" in this situation can do DPS and may in fact be one of the stronger members of the party at this. The key part here is the tactic involved. tanking is all about creating opportunity for others to safely DPS. Intimidate is optional

Kiting is where someone (and this could be a turtle tank sitting in a spot) is holding aggro of (generally multiple) mobs that the party isnt intending on killing, at least not yet.

Yes i know that this is probably not a very mainstream application of the terms, and that people may disagree, and it may have helped to clarify the PoV of the show to include this, but this is more or less where we are coming from.

In terms of FoT, I dont think theres anything wrong with having a more defensive build hold SR - I have done it many times and it typically allows for ranged members of the party to shoot harder and help make up the difference. Depending on your personnel you may not have a high DPS character that can survive. You are correct though in pointing out that defense and offense are generally competing against each other from a build perspective and this is something we covered on the show.

also, its worth noting that Epic Hound of Xoriat is coming soon which may cause a bit of a resurgence in the more traditional usage of tanks.

Livmo
10-29-2015, 01:38 PM
I would in fact argue that most raids I run outside of my normal circles are teaching players "bad advice." I see a lot of groups that are sloppy, disorganized and uninformed. My stance with leading raids has always been to teach "proper" mechanics even on a lower difficulty so that when players do move up to challenge themselves they have those mechanics and knowledge at their disposal, even if they choose not to use it. Perhaps they may also find that they use less resources. And frankly I find a raid to be generally more exciting, satisfying and fun when it is well executed than just brute forced.


Good point and I see this allot when I PUG raids, most specifically CiTW.

I'm not sure why the group(s) won't listen, but often times this is the CiTW end fights, " I see a lot of groups that are sloppy, disorganized and uninformed..." a then we dine on an endless bucket of Portal Keepers : ) )

Enoach
10-29-2015, 02:10 PM
Tanking is a style of play. Is it always needed? No. But think about it; is self healing always needed? is crowd control always needed? is DPS always needed?

The answer is no. I've seen groups be successful that lacked a few of the things I've listed.

Self healing can be replaced with someone that is good at keeping a party up. Sure some will argue that because they are doing this they don't contribute to DPS and are thus a negative to the party. This of course discounts the amount of time they allowed the DPS to continue to DPS because they didn't have to stop and heal.

Crowd Control can be replaced with MORE DPS or pulling mobs in more manageable numbers. However, I've never heard of someone that didn't giggle in glee as they hacked away a large groups doing 1.5x more damage without worry of getting hit back. Also never heard of a DPS character yell at a CC build because everything was standing still for them to kill.

While DPS appears to be king at this time there are situations where it is more costly not just to the Party but to the individual player.

----------------
I myself have played a Fleshy Pure Paladin Tank since '06. Sure not every party needs the skills I've gathered over that time, but I've always played with the goal of costing less resources then if the party was taking the brunt. Personally I enjoy creating opportunities for my party to maximize their damage output. Be it via sneak attack or just gather up scattered mobs so that an AoE gets more Damage Per Spell Point.

Playing a Tank is not a bad route to go down. Sure it is not an easy road or even always appreciated but a person doing a good job in this role can make is so that the less geared, and those with less resources and past lives can be just as successful in high end content as those that are overpowered for it.

As for raids, sometimes as a raid leader you need to set up control points. This helps remove some of the possibilities of things going upside-down and gives a more enjoyable play through. Especially nice when your entire raid group is not filled with players/builds that could wipe the floor on EE without breaking a sweat.

So as a Tank on Khyber I can say that we do still exist. We have gone though a lot of changes in how and when we are needed. But I know for myself I've still found places where my skills help my party be successful or if anything use fewer resources to get the quest completed.

Eth
11-03-2015, 09:22 AM
Right. Take those and go beat the whole game lol.
Seriously though, spell absorption can't last for the lolth fight and there's also the possibility of spiders spawning behind you that are not subject to spell absorption.
Huh? I was being serious. SF pots are great for this fight in particular, because you can keep yourself up even if your SP bar is drained (which will be the case). I never had issues running out of spell absorb there.



I've seen much more consistent wipes in EE CitW than in any other raid (even FoT that you require a tank for SR). It's where you need tactics and tanks the most and yet people seem to take it very lightly (maybe the reason of the wipes? lol). There isn't even a decent wiki entry for the raid. Many of the stuff in the wiki are wrong.

I'll just leave this here for you. You can see me tanking her in the last part. I'm the barbarian (hah).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPHmhyPSSQo

Eth
11-03-2015, 09:43 AM
Tanking is where someone (and this can be someone with a bow running around) is holding aggro such that other players are able to apply DPS and kill the particular monster. Note that the "tank" in this situation can do DPS and may in fact be one of the stronger members of the party at this. The key part here is the tactic involved. tanking is all about creating opportunity for others to safely DPS. Intimidate is optional

Kiting is where someone (and this could be a turtle tank sitting in a spot) is holding aggro of (generally multiple) mobs that the party isnt intending on killing, at least not yet.

Yes i know that this is probably not a very mainstream application of the terms, and that people may disagree, and it may have helped to clarify the PoV of the show to include this, but this is more or less where we are coming from.


I can get behind this. Makes a lot of sense.

I usually just refer to the tank as to the person who's supposed to hold aggro.
Tanking in a way that lets other apply DPS when it's necessary and tanking in a way that makes your own survival easier when DPS is irrelevant is kind of a given to that role, the way I look at it.

Faltout
11-03-2015, 06:46 PM
Huh? I was being serious. SF pots are great for this fight in particular, because you can keep yourself up even if your SP bar is drained (which will be the case). I never had issues running out of spell absorb there.



I'll just leave this here for you. You can see me tanking her in the last part. I'm the barbarian (hah).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPHmhyPSSQo
1. This is not a typical run. It's some of the best geared players running coordinated. Your DPS is not even close to what a full raid party with very competent players does.

2. You only got hit with special attack once (while all attacking her) and only for 14 beams. That's when the second barb died even while drinking pots and whatever. Btw, first time you got special attack (while ana was draining orb) the person targeted hid behind the pillar and attack was cut short at only 3 beams.
Now this special attack goes off at least 3 times in a regular run (with less DPS).

3. Spell absorb only prevented healing curse from orb attack. Damage still rolled normally. What saved the rest of you from the orb beams was your high hitpoints. You said you only need spell absorb and SF pots. Well, turns out you also need 1000+ hit points and a sacrificial halfling (the barb that died taking most of the heat).

4. As for normal eye beams, it's true you had aggro. However, you still had 1400 HP, fast healing, healing on hit and silver flame pots. Still more than "Just spell absorb and SF pots". Apparently also barb heal amp and self-healing and HP. I already knew characters like that could survive cause in my first ever CitW... on EE... as the sole healer we were able to pull it off with just one paladin and me alive. Pally had 1600 HP and would rarely get healing curse. I was able to keep him up easily. I was interested in characters with less HP. Does this damage have a save? Does healing curse have a save? Any tricks someone with aggro can do to prevent lolth from killing him?

5. Thanks for the video. I'm trying to gather information about CitW to update wiki and watching it in a video helps notice more of the things going on than playing it. :)

Eth
11-04-2015, 04:49 AM
1. This is not a typical run. It's some of the best geared players running coordinated. Your DPS is not even close to what a full raid party with very competent players does.
Yes, but I don't have other EE CITW footage currently. ;)
Haven't run that raid in ages. That video might even have been my last run of it.



2. You only got hit with special attack once (while all attacking her) and only for 14 beams. That's when the second barb died even while drinking pots and whatever. Btw, first time you got special attack (while ana was draining orb) the person targeted hid behind the pillar and attack was cut short at only 3 beams.
Now this special attack goes off at least 3 times in a regular run (with less DPS).
OK, guess I misunderstood you then. You mean THAT attack. Yes they added some weird force blast at some point (I don't remember that being in there at first release?). It does damage in the 600-700 range with no save. Spell absorption doesn't work and since it's force all your absorb past lives and gear won't help.
So in general HP are your friend. This can indeed wipe a party quickly and killed one of us which was unfortunate.
I personally never had much of an issue with it. If you can survive it, just heal and done. Just keep your HP full at all times.

For parties... spread out, so only one or two people get hit?



3. Spell absorb only prevented healing curse from orb attack. Damage still rolled normally. What saved the rest of you from the orb beams was your high hitpoints. You said you only need spell absorb and SF pots. Well, turns out you also need 1000+ hit points and a sacrificial halfling (the barb that died taking most of the heat).

4. As for normal eye beams, it's true you had aggro. However, you still had 1400 HP, fast healing, healing on hit and silver flame pots. Still more than "Just spell absorb and SF pots". Apparently also barb heal amp and self-healing and HP. I already knew characters like that could survive cause in my first ever CitW... on EE... as the sole healer we were able to pull it off with just one paladin and me alive. Pally had 1600 HP and would rarely get healing curse. I was able to keep him up easily. I was interested in characters with less HP. Does this damage have a save? Does healing curse have a save? Any tricks someone with aggro can do to prevent lolth from killing him?
Sure, but it's the healing curse that gets you killed from my experience. It just takes to long to drink a remove curse pot and if unlucky she just recurses you. You usually will get hit from the damage beams while removing your curse, that's when it becomes dangerous.
The healing curse does have a save however. I think it's reflex? At least I remember on my high save toons that my spell absorb barely ever lost charges.

You asked what would be a good tank...well yes, something with high HP, high healing amp and ideally SF pots.
Saves help, but aren't important here.
1.3k+ HP is easily doable on a barbarian or paladin.




5. Thanks for the video. I'm trying to gather information about CitW to update wiki and watching it in a video helps notice more of the things going on than playing it. :)
Soloing EE is still on my todo list, but I should have done it on my barb life really. :/
Maybe some day.

There is footage from other people I think if you look around. I think yeela uploaded her EE solo.
Should be a lot of info you can gather from that since everything takes forever and you are bound to see every special attack a lot of times. :D