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Basura_Grande
09-28-2015, 06:14 PM
Here are a few things I think should be "reaper" when that surfaces.

- Level 30s only, awards no XP
- Awards SLIGHTLY better versions of existing gear with mythic values are 1-6 or something more creative. Old desert epics were only slightly better than raid loot and it was enough for us to farm.
- Traps need to be deadly, but please don't go too insane on the DCs.
- Mobs need to be way more dangerous than they are in current EEs. Please no one-shotting though, this goes in general as on-shot mechanics just infuriate players. Mobs need to be dangerous enough that we can't surround ourselves and just cleave, they should be dangerous enough that stunning is worthwhile again.
- Crowd control should be encouraged and possible. Make a DC caster with hold/dance a worthy party spot.
- Mob saves/SR can't be insane, we still need to be able to stun and insta-kill. I high to maxed DC caster spending 100 SP to Energy Drain the Finger should kill pretty much anything considering the spell point costs.
- Mob HPs need to be at least 5 times higher than what they are on the current EEs.
- Mortal fear needs some kind of nerf or increasing mob HPs doesn't matter, my suggestion is put a cap on the damage that a mortal fear proc can do, maybe 5000.

Thoughts?

FranOhmsford
09-28-2015, 06:32 PM
Here are a few things I think should be "reaper" when that surfaces.

- Level 30s only, awards no XP

The Devs have already pretty much stated that that is NOT what Reaper will be!

That is an End-Game difficulty setting {I like to call it Mythic} while Reaper will be a difficulty setting above Elite for the entire game!


- Awards SLIGHTLY better versions of existing gear with mythic values are 1-6 or something more creative. Old desert epics were only slightly better than raid loot and it was enough for us to farm.

Excuse me but what Raid Loot even came close to Epic SoS or even Epic Antique?
Slightly better?
Really?


- Traps need to be deadly, but please don't go too insane on the DCs.

There's deadly and there's deadly.

Traps need to be viable problems for players to overcome - They don't ALL need to be instadeath!

Remember the poor Rogue/Arti who's got to disable them!


- Mobs need to be way more dangerous than they are in current EEs. Please no one-shotting though, this goes in general as on-shot mechanics just infuriate players. Mobs need to be dangerous enough that we can't surround ourselves and just cleave, they should be dangerous enough that stunning is worthwhile again.

How do you make mobs that dangerous without one-shotting?

That's the problem here!

EE Mobs are already insanely dangerous {especially Champions} - And Player HPs are on a scale now where one guy can have 8-900 while the next guy has 2k+!
The Devs can't balance mobs to those two Players!


- Crowd control should be encouraged and possible. Make a DC caster with hold/dance a worthy party spot.

Make Healers a worthy party spot too while you're at it!


- Mob saves/SR can't be insane, we still need to be able to stun and insta-kill. I high to maxed DC caster spending 100 SP to Energy Drain the Finger should kill pretty much anything considering the spell point costs.

Reaper actually probably should require a maxed DC at each level to get a FoD or Disco Ball to work - Casters do have spells that don't rely on DCs.

And Reaper should be aimed at Groups so Cloud Spells and Debuffs should probably be buffed in there to give Casters a reason to join groups rather than simply soloing it.


- Mob HPs need to be at least 5 times higher than what they are on the current EEs.

REALLY?

You know how annoying it is to have to stand beating on a mob for minutes on end?

Forget HP - Give the Mobs viable self-Healing, Buffs etc. Make the players work for the quick kill but don't make the quick kill an impossibility!
Just think how Vorpal is now seen as useless because of the super low HP Cap on it's Instakill ability! {Honestly I think Vorpal's instakill cap should be at least doubled and possibly tripled! Sov Vorpal should be anything below 10k HP!}.


- Mortal fear needs some kind of nerf or increasing mob HPs doesn't matter, my suggestion is put a cap on the damage that a mortal fear proc can do, maybe 5000.

Mortal Fear was a mistake!

Unfortunately it's now in the game and Nerfing players already crafted items will not go down well.

They could give Reaper Mobs {and ONLY Reaper mobs} resistance to that effect in the form of a Will Save I suppose {Give it a high enough DC that they do have a chance to fail obviously}.

Grailhawk
09-28-2015, 06:34 PM
- Mortal fear needs some kind of nerf or increasing mob HPs doesn't matter, my suggestion is put a cap on the damage that a mortal fear proc can do, maybe 5000.

Thoughts?

Mortal Fear: On Hit: 8 to 64 Force Damage. In addition, 5% chance to cut non-boss foe's current health in half or 5000 damage max.
8d8 = 36 avg damage
0.05(5000) = 250 avg damage per hit
286 avg damage per hit from Mortal Fear

Crippling Flames: On Crit: 135 to 325 Fire Damage. On Hit: 5% chance to apply 2 Negative Levels.
230 avg damage per crit
Assuming 50% crit chance thats
115 avg damage per hit

Seams OK still the best damage vs trash option. You think mortal fear should still be multiplied by helpless status and the likes?

Basura_Grande
09-28-2015, 06:55 PM
Mortal Fear: On Hit: 8 to 64 Force Damage. In addition, 5% chance to cut non-boss foe's current health in half or 5000 damage max.
8d8 = 36 avg damage
0.05(5000) = 250 avg damage per hit
286 avg damage per hit from Mortal Fear

Crippling Flames: On Crit: 135 to 325 Fire Damage. On Hit: 5% chance to apply 2 Negative Levels.
230 avg damage per crit
Assuming 50% crit chance thats
115 avg damage per hit

Seams OK still the best damage vs trash option. You think mortal fear should still be multiplied by helpless status and the likes?

I don't think it'll matter if there's a cap on it, and that 5000 number is just something I pulled out of nowhere. As it is now with MF weapons orange names die so fast it's not funny, this will let Turbine still use orange names without them being a joke. The past few raids for example have had far too much red-named trash, I'm better MF is part of the reason why,.

Basura_Grande
09-28-2015, 06:57 PM
Really?


Yes.

It obvious it won't be for everyone, if you still find EE challenging you really shouldn't comment as you still have much to grow as a player.

FranOhmsford
09-29-2015, 04:57 AM
Yes.

It obvious it won't be for everyone, if you still find EE challenging you really shouldn't comment as you still have much to grow as a player.

Well for your information it's probably best for the Devs to know that not everyone can trivialise EEs and that obviously the difficulty of Reaper has to be tailored so that enough people who can trivialise EEs will be able to run it at all!

More HPs alone isn't going to do this!

More HPs is probably the single worst thing the Devs could do!

More HPs simply leads to More DPS!


Reaper is going to be a difficulty above Elite - The Devs have given ample statements that it's NOT going to be an End-Game only difficulty!
It's going to be an EXTRA difficulty above Elite for every quest in the game!

Now that means that there's gonna be some issues right from the get go:

1st)
People will figure out the optimal level to run it at - Take Swiped Signet....It's a Lvl 5 Quest on Elite....If it takes 20 minutes to complete with a group of Lvl 5s for 30k xp and 10 minutes to complete for a group of Lvl 7s for 22k xp the majority of people will run it at Lvl 7!
If it gives Uber Loot then people will simply run it at Lvl 20 to get said Loot!

So Reaper needs a Maximum Character Level attached to it rather than a Minimum!

2nd)
Take those people trivialising EEs out of Elites and move them into Reaper and you have an even bigger divide between Players.
Those who haven't got into EEs yet aren't going to be capable in Reaper and those running Reaper certainly aren't gonna step down to EH unless a reason is there for them to do so!

So Reaper needs to not be something that the Elite want to run all the time - It needs to be so difficult, take so long that it's there for when they want a Challenge but not something they'll run all day every day!

3rd)
Reaper simply cannot be soloable!
More HPs doesn't stop it from being Soloed - It just means those with enough DPS will be able to and everyone else will be stuck!
Reaper HAS to REQUIRE a Group!

So - Have Mobs hit so hard that it doesn't matter if you've got 250 PRR, 30% Dodge and 3000 HPs you're gonna be dead in the first room if you even think of soloing!
Have it require the Debuffer, the CCer, the Healer AND the Trapper as well as DPS!



Mobs don't need more HPs

They need just enough HPs so that Instakilling without debuffs/beating them down to half first etc. isn't possible!
They need high enough Saves that CCing/Instakilling without debuffs isn't possible!
They need to do enough damage that melees cannot stand against them alone!
They need to be able to get to Ranged Characters fast {tight confines help but mobs can move fast and there's plenty of teleporting mobs around too.}. If they can't get to a Ranged character they need a Ranged option that hurts said character!


Even the Elite don't like standing beating on the same mob for long - Heck if a boss takes more than 20 seconds to take down outside of a Raid you start hearing complaints!

That's why the emphasis is so much on DPS right now.
BECAUSE MOBS HAVE TOO MANY HPs NOT TOO FEW!




Make Reaper soloable and the few who can solo it WILL!
Then everyone else who can't solo it won't be able to get a group together because those who can solo it won't join! And the majority of players will still be running Elites/EHs and not even considering Reaper in the first place!

OR

You'll end up with EVERYONE running Reaper and it becoming simply the new Elite!

We don't want EITHER of those two things to happen so Reaper HAS to REQUIRE a GROUP!

PsychoBlonde
09-29-2015, 01:18 PM
Here are a few things I think should be "reaper" when that surfaces.

- Level 30s only, awards no XP


I'd be fine with this, but it might be problematic. Are all reaper difficulty quests going to be level 34 then? This would probably mean that only a few quests could even have Reaper on them at the beginning, because they'd have to re-work quests a few at a time to add the new difficulty. Kind of like making an area Epic. So I think this suggestion is kind of a tossup with several trade-offs.


- Awards SLIGHTLY better versions of existing gear with mythic values are 1-6 or something more creative. Old desert epics were only slightly better than raid loot and it was enough for us to farm.

Additional Mythic bonuses are fine with me. I do not want to see any gear that you just flat can't get otherwise. The mythic stuff that actually has DIFFERENT bonuses from the regular epic items was a really, really bad idea. But an extra +1 to melee power? Fine. Personally I'd like to see lots of Champions on Reaper (so tons of mysterious remnants) along with a higher drop rate for tomes and other ddo store items like XP pots. If they do any Reaper Sagas these would make nice end reward options as well--along with a GIANT chunk of Guild renown.


- Traps need to be deadly, but please don't go too insane on the DCs.

Define "too insane"? My trapper can hit DC's up in the 100's easily. What I'd like to see instead of the static traps (although those should be there too), is mobs that drop spell wards and other kinds of significant traps, perhaps as a champion ability. Combine this with higher usage of things like blindness, sticky, binding chain, sleet storm--abilities that seriously mess with visibility and movement, and you have a very nasty situation.


- Mobs need to be way more dangerous than they are in current EEs. Please no one-shotting though, this goes in general as on-shot mechanics just infuriate players.

These requests are mutually exclusive. Mobs that are "dangerous" to a 200 AC 300 PRR 150 MRR 200 heal amp tank are going to one-shot more squishy toons regardless of whether there are one-shot "mechanics" or not. Frankly, I'm fine with having horrific combos and nastiness on Reaper. That's kind of the point. I want it to be so bad that if you make it through an entire Reaper quest without dying, you basically piked.


- Crowd control should be encouraged and possible. Make a DC caster with hold/dance a worthy party spot.

This is where Champion mechanic helps out, because they can make some of the mobs outright immune to CC without effectively tossing down a blanket effect on the mobs. I think the mobs should be a lot more aggressive about casting buffs on themselves, though. Greater Dispel and Mordenkainen's Disjunction should be vital, along with keeping situational awareness so you know what's going on.


- Mob saves/SR can't be insane, we still need to be able to stun and insta-kill. I high to maxed DC caster spending 100 SP to Energy Drain the Finger should kill pretty much anything considering the spell point costs.

They should be variable, not insane, yes.


Mob HPs need to be at least 5 times higher than what they are on the current EEs.

No, but DPSing the mobs needs to be a lot riskier. No need to up the HP--just decrease the player ability to attack consistently and you've accomplished the same thing.


- Mortal fear needs some kind of nerf or increasing mob HPs doesn't matter, my suggestion is put a cap on the damage that a mortal fear proc can do, maybe 5000.

Whatever. They can "nerf" mortal fear far more effectively by making it impossible for you to get numerous sequential hits on an enemy without nearly always getting yourself killed.