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Steelstar
07-17-2015, 10:36 AM
Hey, all.

We have a pair of adjustments for Enlightened Spirit abilities planned for Update 27, and we're not sure whether or not they'll make it into a Lamannia build, so we wanted to let you know about them ahead of time. Currently, they are:



The Spell Power scaling of Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast is now 120% (was 150%).
Shining Through now grants Temporary Hit Points equal to 12x your Constitution Score (was 15x).


These two abilities on Live are a bit stronger than intended, and we believe these adjustments will put them a little closer to where they should be while still remaining powerful.

Thanks!

-Steel

Lonnbeimnech
07-17-2015, 10:40 AM
Break Forth now grants Temporary Hit Points equal to 12x your Constitution Score (was 15x).
-Steel

Shining through???

Steelstar
07-17-2015, 10:41 AM
Shining through???
Yep. Fixed! Clearly I need another cup of coffee today.

cru121
07-17-2015, 10:49 AM
looks like u27 is going live very soon. interesting

Steve_Howe
07-17-2015, 10:55 AM
Hey, all.

We have a pair of adjustments for Enlightened Spirit abilities planned for Update 27, and we're not sure whether or not they'll make it into a Lamannia build, so we wanted to let you know about them ahead of time. Currently, they are:



The Spell Power scaling of Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast is now 120% (was 150%).
Shining Through now grants Temporary Hit Points equal to 12x your Constitution Score (was 15x).


These two abilities on Live are a bit stronger than intended, and we believe these adjustments will put them a little closer to where they should be while still remaining powerful.

:sigh:

Really?

I'm getting tired of this. I spend money on four +5 Hearts to convert my 20th level Horc fighter to a 20th level Horc melee Warlock because I found a build I liked through testing on Lamannia only to have it nerfed a week later.

I know I'm not the only one this has happened to and I know this certainly isn't the first time such a thing has happened. Nonetheless, I am getting tired of the same thing happening to builds over and over and over again.

It's quite demoralizing really.

Propane
07-17-2015, 10:59 AM
Yep. Fixed! Clearly I need another cup of coffee today.

Agreeded... for me as well....


Anyways... I always prefer that new stuff comes out weak then gets turned up...

If you give me 7 bacon strips and take 2 way I am mad....

If you give me 3 bacon strips and then give me 2 more I am happy...

Have 5 bacon strips both ways...

Food for thought....

Lonnbeimnech
07-17-2015, 11:00 AM
:sigh:

Really?

I'm getting tired of this. I spend money on four +5 Hearts to convert my 20th level Horc fighter to a 20th level Horc melee Warlock because I found a build I liked through testing on Lamannia only to have it nerfed a week later.

I know I'm not the only one this has happened to and I know this certainly isn't the first time such a thing has happened. Nonetheless, I am getting tired of the same thing happening to builds over and over and over again.

It's quite demoralizing really.

You can say the same thing about every build, ever. It's the nature of mmo's to change over time.

HastyPudding
07-17-2015, 11:07 AM
:sigh:

Really?

I'm getting tired of this. I spend money on four +5 Hearts to convert my 20th level Horc fighter to a 20th level Horc melee Warlock because I found a build I liked through testing on Lamannia only to have it nerfed a week later.

I know I'm not the only one this has happened to and I know this certainly isn't the first time such a thing has happened. Nonetheless, I am getting tired of the same thing happening to builds over and over and over again.

It's quite demoralizing really.

Maybe because that particular build was dominating almost all content? The first week warlock came out, there were tons of blastlocks and melee locks running around. How many warlocks you see running around right now doing that? The vast majority of them do nothing but turn on their aura, run into a pack of mobs, hit their massive temp HP button and then spam 2 cleave attacks until things are dead. Then they just move on and do it again and again. I tried it for 4 levels and it got boring as hell because it trivialized most content.

Those cleaves are currently the most broken thing in the game, right now. I stopped playing my warlock and went to other projects because I was asked several times why I didn't use the cleave attacks (he's a tainted scholar fey pact enchanter build). Broken things get fixed, otherwise they wouldn't be called broken.

donblas
07-17-2015, 11:15 AM
Hey, all.

We have a pair of adjustments for Enlightened Spirit abilities planned for Update 27, and we're not sure whether or not they'll make it into a Lamannia build, so we wanted to let you know about them ahead of time. Currently, they are:



The Spell Power scaling of Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast is now 120% (was 150%).
Shining Through now grants Temporary Hit Points equal to 12x your Constitution Score (was 15x).


These two abilities on Live are a bit stronger than intended, and we believe these adjustments will put them a little closer to where they should be while still remaining powerful.

Thanks!

-Steel

Booooo! Booooo I say!

OK maybe they were a bit OP, but I was really enjoying them!

:(

I suspect I'll still enjoy my warlocks though so thanks for making the class!

valarmorghuliis
07-17-2015, 11:15 AM
It honestly could probably use a bit harder of a nerf... they are being pretty cautious.

Kza
07-17-2015, 11:30 AM
This is perfect from my Point of view.

Start to love my warlock but... A tad nonchallenging right now on everything except most brutal quests.

I will definately continue to play a warlock in this enhancement tree (having fun and love concept). This will still be really strong but now not over the top probably.
Thanks for "fine tuning" and not brutally slay the tree. This is about perfect i think.

Keep up the great job and nice you tune down and not just tune up all other!!

donblas
07-17-2015, 11:35 AM
This is one of the few "nerf announcement" threads where there hasn't been any whining!

Amazing!

Faltout
07-17-2015, 11:36 AM
Don't forget enervating shadow neg leveling red names...

Alternative
07-17-2015, 12:00 PM
thanks for the heads up

Tilomere
07-17-2015, 12:13 PM
del

Xerio
07-17-2015, 12:33 PM
Eh, I can attest to it being a touch over the top in heroics. In epics (well EE atleast) the damage slows down. I did a slaughter race with a barbarian using LD (myself in draconic), he won fairly easily.

eitherway, appreciate the small adjustments before lobbing off our heads.

Now then, can you get the blasted shield enhancement to work properly while you are at it?!

Dalsheel
07-17-2015, 12:46 PM
Oooook... So introduce some of the most exciting abilities to use on a melee (a "burst" attack) and then nerf it like 2 weeks later? You guys know us players spent money on this right?

I'll just point you to the direction the "Recon SLA" discussion went... If you nerf this, it's bait and switch!

The damage it's doing is not even close to the damage a Barbarian is doing with his Cleaves, at least not if you're playing a melee Warlock and not some kind of Uber crit chance/damage caster warlock (no clue what an end game caster warlock's burst hits for).

Just keep in mind, if you ever change the aura scaling to anything less than 150% then melee Warlock is dead. And idc if you want to kill a specific build or not as long ppl don't need to spend money to build it. This one cost money...

Blatant Bait and Switch.

Edit: Btw, if there's anything about the Warlock that needs a nerf, these are definately Consume and Stricken. They hit for way more than any Wiz/Sorc or Clr/FvS spell does. I just finished a "Souleater" Warlock life on my FvS and these two combined made boss fights as trivial as killing trash with Wail of the Banshee.

Loromir
07-17-2015, 12:52 PM
Hey, all.

We have a pair of adjustments for Enlightened Spirit abilities planned for Update 27, and we're not sure whether or not they'll make it into a Lamannia build, so we wanted to let you know about them ahead of time. Currently, they are:



The Spell Power scaling of Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast is now 120% (was 150%).
Shining Through now grants Temporary Hit Points equal to 12x your Constitution Score (was 15x).


These two abilities on Live are a bit stronger than intended, and we believe these adjustments will put them a little closer to where they should be while still remaining powerful.

Thanks!

-Steel

I'm wondering it that is enough of an adjustment. Maybe still too strong.

Xyy
07-17-2015, 12:57 PM
Apparently anything that makes you buy and use a lesser heart is totally acceptable now, and encouraged by Turbine mate. Turbine and Varg's decision to force us to use one for pacts instead of making it a fred ability is a perfect example, it's all about driving revenue with the Warlock and he by his own words was the one to make it that way. Thanks for treating us like walking ATMs again, so great to be treated like a gullible piece of garbage by a Turbine... not.Would you prefer to be treated like a cry baby? How do you treat people that can't express themselves in a mature manner?

Krumm
07-17-2015, 01:20 PM
The damage it's doing is not even close to the damage a Barbarian is doing with his Cleaves, at least not if you're playing a melee Warlock and not some kind of Uber crit chance/damage caster warlock (no clue what an end game caster warlock's burst hits for).



I am currently leveling up a PDK 18Warlock/2 Pally build (used a +1 heart of wood, ouch!).

I TR-ed into above build after I tested a morninglord 18warlock/1fighter/1cleric build.

On the test morningloard build, at level 28, I was able to hit some where around 440 - 460 spell power for light damage.
with about 42 - 46% crit chance & +10% crit damage.

This is on a "melee" warlock with full SWF line, IC slash, precision. (no OWC though).
MAx/Emp/quicken taken also.

Crit chance (5% base + 22% thunderforged + 5% SE core 5, +10% from Empyrean Magic (easy to upkeep with aura), +1% from interrogation + any optional insightful spell lore items)


I did EE ToEE solo, I was able to gather mobs until red alert then burst em to death. It take a few rounds but with shining through & displacement, it's not that tough to stay alive. (archers are pain though)

Full disclosure, I do have tons of past lives, at 28, I was somewhere around 140+prr & 100+mrr (can't remember exactly #).


I'm not sure if this is OP (compared to barbs or Pallies) but it sure was fun for a bit...

Memnir
07-17-2015, 01:21 PM
Not deep cuts, and after playing around with the ES tree on a few builds - they make sense. Yeah, as a player I'll miss the current numbers a bit - but the DM in me is nodding in agreement that the adjustments make sense without going overboard.

fmalfeas
07-17-2015, 01:28 PM
You know, given that Eldritch Chain is 110% spellpower /with/ -1 pact die, and no bonus dice of any kind, while the ES cleavebursts are 130% with bonus light dice (and possibly more bonus light dice as well), and Chain is quite potent...I'd say you'll be completely fine.

Steve_Howe
07-17-2015, 01:35 PM
nm

Chai
07-17-2015, 01:48 PM
Terrible.

Self healing for the class was already shouted down, so now the temp HP gets lowered?

When I use both spell bursts the same result occurs as when I use cleave and great cleave in rapid succession. Apparently cleaves have been OP for 9 years, and every single person who played DDO missed it.

Uska
07-17-2015, 01:48 PM
:sigh:

Really?

I'm getting tired of this. I spend money on four +5 Hearts to convert my 20th level Horc fighter to a 20th level Horc melee Warlock because I found a build I liked through testing on Lamannia only to have it nerfed a week later.

I know I'm not the only one this has happened to and I know this certainly isn't the first time such a thing has happened. Nonetheless, I am getting tired of the same thing happening to builds over and over and over again.

It's quite demoralizing really.

A little dramatic it's not that big a nerf

Pnumbra
07-17-2015, 01:56 PM
This nerf to Warlock is just ridiculous. Did you bother to fix the bugs in the class before deciding to nerf it? How about a post release opinion poll on the idea before blindsiding us. Didn't the Lama test runs show the prowess of the class, and you were ok with that back then, right?

If the class is over performing (subjective idea at best), the it is in the heroic levels, not in the epics. Have you read the conversations? Even in this thread players are stating that there are far more powerful classes. Are you going to nerf them based on player admission to the fact?

...And yes this was a bait and switch tactic. It will be a cold day in the nether realms before you fool me again.

Drwaz99
07-17-2015, 02:12 PM
I love it when I buy a car and after owning it for a month the dealership calls me and tells me I need to take it in because it makes 15 horsepower too much and they are going to adjust it.

This was mentioned on Lamannia, they ignored it. Now there are going to be droves of ****ed off players who don't read the forums who just bought warlocks and now aren't going to get what they paid for. The facepalming continues.

Krumm
07-17-2015, 02:12 PM
How about for lowering the spell power scaling, you increase the radius of the blasts and/or aura.

By how much, I'm not sure... 30%?



Just enough to make some difference but not a lot would be my suggestion.


btw, what is the actual radius of the blasts and the aura?
I felt it was bigger than cleave/great cleave radius but still annoyingly a wee bit smaller than I would like... :p

Vellrad
07-17-2015, 02:39 PM
Con score?
Shouldn't it be X*con mod, like everything else in game (except max carrying cap) is?

kain741
07-17-2015, 02:46 PM
:sigh:

Really?

I'm getting tired of this. I spend money on four +5 Hearts to convert my 20th level Horc fighter to a 20th level Horc melee Warlock because I found a build I liked through testing on Lamannia only to have it nerfed a week later.

I know I'm not the only one this has happened to and I know this certainly isn't the first time such a thing has happened. Nonetheless, I am getting tired of the same thing happening to builds over and over and over again.

It's quite demoralizing really.

Not sure if that makes a lot of sense. You know it's a new class...you know there will be nerfs as the balance is found. Set that aside for a moment. (4) +5 hearts is approx 6000 TP with a required 12 day cool down on reincarnation cooldowns. Chances are you can grind a free heart in a few hours and if you spend a little TP on a couple XP elixirs you will have a past life, approx 5K saved TP and will be back to 20 in about half the time of the reincarnate cooldowns. The Dev team cannot always anticipate someone making such an illogical decision knowing that this is an evolving class and game in general. In general, if it is going to take multiple hearts to fix a build, it just makes more sense to TR.

Xyy
07-17-2015, 03:15 PM
This is an unfortunate reflex to one side of the clamoring. Following is stated IMHO. The problem with the power of warlocks is a perception issue. A warlock is easy enough to play that less skillful players can play one at much closer to the level of a top level player. Kinda the opposite of an assassin, where there is a much wider performance gap between less and more skilled players. Shining Through is a bit over the top in heroics, but is merely adequate in epics. If the class had good innate healing, then yeah, this would be overpowered.

Xyy
07-17-2015, 03:16 PM
Oh, and one more thing: Doooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom!!

Seikojin
07-17-2015, 03:41 PM
thanks for the heads up

Agreed. LOL @ the complainers.

HastyPudding
07-17-2015, 03:52 PM
Oooook... So introduce some of the most exciting abilities to use on a melee (a "burst" attack) and then nerf it like 2 weeks later? You guys know us players spent money on this right?

I'll just point you to the direction the "Recon SLA" discussion went... If you nerf this, it's bait and switch!

The damage it's doing is not even close to the damage a Barbarian is doing with his Cleaves, at least not if you're playing a melee Warlock and not some kind of Uber crit chance/damage caster warlock (no clue what an end game caster warlock's burst hits for).

Just keep in mind, if you ever change the aura scaling to anything less than 150% then melee Warlock is dead. And idc if you want to kill a specific build or not as long ppl don't need to spend money to build it. This one cost money...

Blatant Bait and Switch.

Edit: Btw, if there's anything about the Warlock that needs a nerf, these are definately Consume and Stricken. They hit for way more than any Wiz/Sorc or Clr/FvS spell does. I just finished a "Souleater" Warlock life on my FvS and these two combined made boss fights as trivial as killing trash with Wail of the Banshee.

It's not the melee warlocks, it's the full caster warlocks that do nothing but boost intelligence for spellcraft/damage then put every metamagic they can on the cleaves and spam as much as they want without cost, all the while having a huge chunk of easily and cheaply re-castable temporary HP. Not to mention the strong defensive benefits of the tree. This current 'nerf' is a rebalance, and if you ask me, they're being prudent and testing the water because it really needs a nerf, not a rebalance. Nobody should walk around with the kind of ridiculously easy damage ES warlocks have AND have the survivability aspects as well.



This nerf to Warlock is just ridiculous. Did you bother to fix the bugs in the class before deciding to nerf it? How about a post release opinion poll on the idea before blindsiding us. Didn't the Lama test runs show the prowess of the class, and you were ok with that back then, right?

If the class is over performing (subjective idea at best), the it is in the heroic levels, not in the epics. Have you read the conversations? Even in this thread players are stating that there are far more powerful classes. Are you going to nerf them based on player admission to the fact?

...And yes this was a bait and switch tactic. It will be a cold day in the nether realms before you fool me again.

Have you seen the warlocks on live? They have widespread immunities, short cooldown/massive power/no cost cleaves, huge temporary HP buffs on a short cooldown, and the PRR/MRR capabilities of a decently-geared tank. It's not the other warlocks that are getting rebalanced, it's just this tree, because it's blatantly trivializing most content. I don't think the devs thought that offensive casters would play in a defensive/support tree, but now you have them doing so and it's absurdly strong.



This is an unfortunate reflex to one side of the clamoring. Following is stated IMHO. The problem with the power of warlocks is a perception issue. A warlock is easy enough to play that less skillful players can play one at much closer to the level of a top level player. Kinda the opposite of an assassin, where there is a much wider performance gap between less and more skilled players. Shining Through is a bit over the top in heroics, but is merely adequate in epics. If the class had good innate healing, then yeah, this would be overpowered.

I'm inclined to agree. It's not that warlock is obviously overpowered (they're definitely on the strong side, but it does have some drawbacks) it's just the ease in which they do things. It's a very easy class to play, making maximizing the damage capabilities almost effortless, because it needs so little requirement to play efficiently. Now, take this easy-to-play class that doesn't need uber specialized builds and put it behind a completionist TR character with tons of epic past lives and good gear. THAT is why it's considered overpowered.

Steve_Howe
07-17-2015, 04:00 PM
A little dramatic

Not really. I didn't forecast DOOOOOOOOOOOM nor did I threaten to quit the game.

I merely expressed my frustration.

Chai
07-17-2015, 04:23 PM
It's not the melee warlocks, it's the full caster warlocks that do nothing but boost intelligence for spellcraft/damage then put every metamagic they can on the cleaves and spam as much as they want without cost, all the while having a huge chunk of easily and cheaply re-castable temporary HP. Not to mention the strong defensive benefits of the tree. This current 'nerf' is a rebalance, and if you ask me, they're being prudent and testing the water because it really needs a nerf, not a rebalance. Nobody should walk around with the kind of ridiculously easy damage ES warlocks have AND have the survivability aspects as well.




Have you seen the warlocks on live? They have widespread immunities, short cooldown/massive power/no cost cleaves, huge temporary HP buffs on a short cooldown, and the PRR/MRR capabilities of a decently-geared tank. It's not the other warlocks that are getting rebalanced, it's just this tree, because it's blatantly trivializing most content. I don't think the devs thought that offensive casters would play in a defensive/support tree, but now you have them doing so and it's absurdly strong.




I'm inclined to agree. It's not that warlock is obviously overpowered (they're definitely on the strong side, but it does have some drawbacks) it's just the ease in which they do things. It's a very easy class to play, making maximizing the damage capabilities almost effortless, because it needs so little requirement to play efficiently. Now, take this easy-to-play class that doesn't need uber specialized builds and put it behind a completionist TR character with tons of epic past lives and good gear. THAT is why it's considered overpowered.

And yet there are numerous builds which are clearing out quests faster than warlocks, with their own easy button survivability, and are just as easy to create and effortless to play.

TR lives are no longer what makes a build super powerful. I have a feeling many people who did all the work are peeved at this, and likely rightfully so, but that ship sailed when EDs came along, and is only heightened by class revamps, but the class revamps and introduction of a new class did not create this issue, nor is it going away. There is no content in this game which can be completed on a multi TR build which cannot be completed on the first life version of the same build all other things being equal.

The myth that someone needs to be multi TR to be powerful enough to steamroll content is a myth and has been a myth since 2012, yet I still see it perpetuated on the forums on a daily basis, where people are comparing old hat multi TR builds to new revamped first life characters and demanding nerfs based on this apples to oranges comparison. The biggest place TRing has an impact is spell penetration. It offers no other source of power that is needed in order to complete elite or epic elite content. Therefore this comparison is not a justification for a nerf.

we saw a lot of the same mentality when nerf demands were made against shiradi, multiple times. Its too easy. Past lives aren't required. Correct. Past lives aren't required - for anything any more, nor will they be in the future in their current state. Instead of asking for an increase in past life power gained, people demand nerfs using the same tired comparison between multi TR old hat builds, and new first life builds, after every_single_update - because they think the new class is the issue, which is incorrect. Past lives not scaling in power as the power crept up is the issue.

The other issue is the content. Yes warlocks are OP in heroic content. What class isn't?

Sebastrd
07-17-2015, 04:45 PM
Hey, all.

We have a pair of adjustments for Enlightened Spirit abilities planned for Update 27, and we're not sure whether or not they'll make it into a Lamannia build, so we wanted to let you know about them ahead of time. Currently, they are:



The Spell Power scaling of Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast is now 120% (was 150%).
Shining Through now grants Temporary Hit Points equal to 12x your Constitution Score (was 15x).


These two abilities on Live are a bit stronger than intended, and we believe these adjustments will put them a little closer to where they should be while still remaining powerful.

Thanks!

-Steel

If you're going to make adjustments, you should make them in heroic only. Warlocks are not at all overpowered in epics; in fact, they're somewhat underpowered at 20+.

Edit: I'd also like to echo some of the sentiment in this thread. I am NOT happy about this change, especially when there are bugs in the class that still have not been fixed.

Warlocks, even in heroics, are NOT overperforming compared to other classes that have been revised recently - and even some that haven't. After two Warlock lives, I ran a Mechanic for the last Rogue life I needed, and I ran circles around the numerous Warlocks I grouped with. The burst abilities are no better than Cleave/Great Cleave or Exalted Cleave/Avenging Cleave. Shining Through should have had a smaller multiplier in heroics (probably x10) than in epics from the beginning, just like Brilliance; but otherwise, the class is fine.

Either way, this is just one more instance of the nerf bat coming in hot and heavy thanks to the cacophony from a vocal group on the forums, while detrimental bugs are left to linger. You'll go ahead and reduce my spell power and temp hit points, but I guarantee I'll still be unable to res on occasion and be unable to complete certain quests thanks to the buggy aura. I'm a little fed up with the apparently skewed priorities.

Xerio
07-17-2015, 04:52 PM
If you're going to make adjustments, you should make them in heroic only. Warlocks are not at all overpowered in epics; in fact, they're somewhat underpowered at 20+.

agreed ^

Pnumbra
07-17-2015, 05:33 PM
If you're going to make adjustments, you should make them in heroic only. Warlocks are not at all overpowered in epics; in fact, they're somewhat underpowered at 20+.

Edit: I'd also like to echo some of the sentiment in this thread. I am NOT happy about this change, especially when there are bugs in the class that still have not been fixed.

Warlocks, even in heroics, are NOT overperforming compared to other classes that have been revised recently - and even some that haven't. After two Warlock lives, I ran a Mechanic for the last Rogue life I needed, and I ran circles around the numerous Warlocks I grouped with. The burst abilities are no better than Cleave/Great Cleave or Exalted Cleave/Avenging Cleave. Shining Through should have had a smaller multiplier in heroics (probably x10) than in epics from the beginning, just like Brilliance; but otherwise, the class is fine.

Either way, this is just one more instance of the nerf bat coming in hot and heavy thanks to the cacophony from a vocal group on the forums, while detrimental bugs are left to linger. You'll go ahead and reduce my spell power and temp hit points, but I guarantee I'll still be unable to res on occasion and be unable to complete certain quests thanks to the buggy aura. I'm a little fed up with the apparently skewed priorities.

Great idea:

The Spell Power scaling of Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast is now 120% (was 150%). OR scales 100% heroic and 150% epic
Shining Through now grants Temporary Hit Points equal to 12x your Constitution Score (was 15x). OR 10x heroic and 15x epic

I wonder if something like this was even considered?

Steve_Howe
07-17-2015, 05:39 PM
Great idea:

The Spell Power scaling of Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast is now 120% (was 150%). OR scales 100% heroic and 150% epic
Shining Through now grants Temporary Hit Points equal to 12x your Constitution Score (was 15x). OR 10x heroic and 15x epic

I wonder if something like this was even considered?

This makes WAY more sense.

Nice!

Ovrad
07-17-2015, 07:07 PM
Bug1: Aura's don't tick with timing as described. Core 6 and Core 12 I stop watched to be ticking 1 second faster than described. If this is also true for Core 18, it is probably the source of ES over performance. Others have found core 18 ticks every 4 seconds (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461525-Warlock-ES-Aura-not-ticking-every-2-seconds)in old Lam build, but I can't test it on live.

Bug2: Players are reporting the Shield Enhancement still isn't working (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/462353-Enlightened-Spirit-Shield-enhancement-broken-still) to prevent MM damage.

Bug3: When one uses the Aura in PA, it generates 2 spirit from hitting mobs every 3 seconds instead of 1. So do heals and buffs, but total spirit regen from spells is 2 total per 3 seconds as intended.

Bug 4: When one makes the above PA warlock and multiclasses for Supreme Cleave to generate spirit every 3 seconds, you find supreme cleave is bugged. It uses damage die amount of Avatar of Nature while shapeshifted, but damage die of weapon equipped while shapeshifted (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425933-Natural-Evolution-a-simplified-wolf-dps-build?p=5511947&viewfull=1#post5511947)(for example it does no damage at all with a scroll equipped, small amount of damage with a dagger equipped, larger amount with a 2H weapon equipped). This means one needs to use a Twinblade for high base damage die (2d8) while shapeshifted in AoN for supreme cleave damage, instead of an Ooze GS weapon/shield combo. This prevents you from receiving the benefits of an Enlightened Spirit/Primal Avatar/Ooze GS summons synergy build.

Bug 5: Spiritual Retribution adds no damage at all if you are using wraps.

Rhysem
07-17-2015, 08:01 PM
Hey, all.

We have a pair of adjustments for Enlightened Spirit abilities planned for Update 27, and we're not sure whether or not they'll make it into a Lamannia build, so we wanted to let you know about them ahead of time. Currently, they are:



The Spell Power scaling of Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast is now 120% (was 150%).
Shining Through now grants Temporary Hit Points equal to 12x your Constitution Score (was 15x).


These two abilities on Live are a bit stronger than intended, and we believe these adjustments will put them a little closer to where they should be while still remaining powerful.

Thanks!

-Steel

Without testing, feels like too much. I tend to suspect that means mobs aren't "1-burst kills" which might be your intent, but due to the massive spike damage nature of bursts, lowering them beyond the "1-burst" point means everything becomes a "2-burst kill" which is an effective 50% dps nerf.

I'd rather see the cooldown dropped substantially (to something resembling 2 seconds) and the SP scaling being something like 60-80% (total, not delta).

I have a 27 warforged pure fvs es, and a now 18 many-life tr+etr. With the drop in damage and defense it may not be worth going melee now.

Rhysem
07-17-2015, 08:16 PM
If you're going to make adjustments, you should make them in heroic only. Warlocks are not at all overpowered in epics; in fact, they're somewhat underpowered at 20+.

Edit: I'd also like to echo some of the sentiment in this thread. I am NOT happy about this change, especially when there are bugs in the class that still have not been fixed.

Warlocks, even in heroics, are NOT overperforming compared to other classes that have been revised recently - and even some that haven't. After two Warlock lives, I ran a Mechanic for the last Rogue life I needed, and I ran circles around the numerous Warlocks I grouped with. The burst abilities are no better than Cleave/Great Cleave or Exalted Cleave/Avenging Cleave. Shining Through should have had a smaller multiplier in heroics (probably x10) than in epics from the beginning, just like Brilliance; but otherwise, the class is fine.

Either way, this is just one more instance of the nerf bat coming in hot and heavy thanks to the cacophony from a vocal group on the forums, while detrimental bugs are left to linger. You'll go ahead and reduce my spell power and temp hit points, but I guarantee I'll still be unable to res on occasion and be unable to complete certain quests thanks to the buggy aura. I'm a little fed up with the apparently skewed priorities.

This. I bet the nerf is driven by multiclass Warlock5 splashes. Note they didn't nerf the aura -- only the stuff you can get without actually going class. Put some (all?) the spellpower/shield bonus back at the 12, 18, or 20 cores.

valarmorghuliis
07-17-2015, 09:14 PM
Great idea:

The Spell Power scaling of Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast is now 120% (was 150%). OR scales 100% heroic and 150% epic
Shining Through now grants Temporary Hit Points equal to 12x your Constitution Score (was 15x). OR 10x heroic and 15x epic

I wonder if something like this was even considered?


This makes WAY more sense.

Nice!

you do realize that that is the same rebalance that you were just complaining about ... they just suggested nerfing it even harder for heroics

Drwaz99
07-17-2015, 09:37 PM
If you're going to make adjustments, you should make them in heroic only. Warlocks are not at all overpowered in epics; in fact, they're somewhat underpowered at 20+.

Edit: I'd also like to echo some of the sentiment in this thread. I am NOT happy about this change, especially when there are bugs in the class that still have not been fixed.

Warlocks, even in heroics, are NOT overperforming compared to other classes that have been revised recently - and even some that haven't. After two Warlock lives, I ran a Mechanic for the last Rogue life I needed, and I ran circles around the numerous Warlocks I grouped with. The burst abilities are no better than Cleave/Great Cleave or Exalted Cleave/Avenging Cleave. Shining Through should have had a smaller multiplier in heroics (probably x10) than in epics from the beginning, just like Brilliance; but otherwise, the class is fine.

Either way, this is just one more instance of the nerf bat coming in hot and heavy thanks to the cacophony from a vocal group on the forums, while detrimental bugs are left to linger. You'll go ahead and reduce my spell power and temp hit points, but I guarantee I'll still be unable to res on occasion and be unable to complete certain quests thanks to the buggy aura. I'm a little fed up with the apparently skewed priorities.

This; all this. Adjust heroics I am ok with. You're messing up royally by touching them in epics. I've now ran 5 Warlock lives on 3 different toons and they are weaker than my sorc AND pally in heroics and epics. I feel like they are right where they need to be (based on my experience playing the newly adjusted classes).

Rhysem
07-17-2015, 09:42 PM
Bug 5: Spiritual Retribution adds no damage at all if you are using wraps.

Bug 6: Aura turns off when you equip an item with feather fall.

Xerio
07-17-2015, 09:58 PM
There are effects in game as is that scale in power through more class levels taken.

My proposal(s);

Is there a way that these two can be coded so that spell power = warlock class lv x 7.5%. This will smack down the multiclass warlock, which honestly, if you are 5 levels of warlock you shouldn't be able to hit that damn hard with these. While rewarding those that go full warlock. Effectively, if you've only taken 5 levels of warlock to just hit these two cleave bursts they're dealing 37.5% spell power dmg. While a full level 20 warlock is doing the full 150% spell power dmg. Just running a basic code through my head this doesn't seem too complicated a script.

The damage vs red and orange named on a warlock is already a joke compared to many others, the only real punching power vs them comes from stricken and consume. Those two really only shine when you've invested the AP into soul eater to get the hunger traits (extra hit die). Crippling this further just seems, well, stupid. An orange named with 180k hp takes my warlock in exalted angle with 625 light sp, 478 acid, roughly 3 minutes to kill assuming it's not a champion with resistances. That same named goes down in half that time easy when confronted with a barbarian or paladin (since we're claiming warlocks are doing too much damage I'm using high dmg classes as counter examples). You guys are in agreement that magic users are being left behind by melee in terms of damage dealt, yet the warlock whom has only eldritch blasts (and in this case bursts) as their means of damage is getting cut down. While wizards and sorcs continue to shout their spells don't do diddly squat worth of damage.

I get the damage is over the top in heroics, that I agree with entirely.
Defensively the temp HP is just as guilty in heroics, however in epics. Not so much. Unless you can somehow get 1 or 2 things at a time in EE (not that easy..) it's gone pretty fast. That's with roughly 120 prr/mrr.

As for the Shining Through;

Each core starting at lv 12 adds x# con multiplier. Base Shining Through, grants 8x con ability score as temporary HP.
12th lv core add passive, Shining Through now grants an additional 2x (bringing the total to 10x) con ability score as temporary HP.
18th lv core add passive, Shining Through now grants an additional 2x (bringing the total to 12x) con ability score as temporary HP.
20th lv core add passive, Shining Through now grants an additional 3x (bringing the total to 15x) con ability score as temporary HP.

Alternative to the scaled damage formula presented above, how about a system where-in all characters lv 20+ gain 0.25% spell power per arcane class level every epic level. and 0.5% spell crit chance.
Now a lv 20 wizard/bard/arti/sorc/warlock gains 5spell power every epic level and everyone gains 0.5% spell crit chance. This additional spell power will counter the spell power nerf of the base blast abilities with a gradual power increase through epic levels. This also offers other arcane classes a more competitive edge in epic levels.

valarmorghuliis
07-17-2015, 10:28 PM
Bug1: Aura's don't tick with timing as described. Core 6 and Core 12 I stop watched to be ticking 1 second faster than described. If this is also true for Core 18, it is probably the source of ES over performance. Others have found core 18 ticks every 4 seconds (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461525-Warlock-ES-Aura-not-ticking-every-2-seconds)in old Lam build, but I can't test it on live.

Bug2: Players are reporting the Shield Enhancement still isn't working (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/462353-Enlightened-Spirit-Shield-enhancement-broken-still) to prevent MM damage.

Bug3: When one uses the Aura in PA, it generates 2 spirit from hitting mobs every 3 seconds instead of 1. So do heals and buffs, but total spirit regen from spells is 2 total per 3 seconds as intended.

Bug 4: When one makes the above PA warlock and multiclasses for Supreme Cleave to generate spirit every 3 seconds, you find supreme cleave is bugged. It uses damage die amount of Avatar of Nature while shapeshifted, but damage die of weapon equipped while shapeshifted (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425933-Natural-Evolution-a-simplified-wolf-dps-build?p=5511947&viewfull=1#post5511947)(for example it does no damage at all with a scroll equipped, small amount of damage with a dagger equipped, larger amount with a 2H weapon equipped). This means one needs to use a Twinblade for high base damage die (2d8) while shapeshifted in AoN for supreme cleave damage, instead of an Ooze GS weapon/shield combo. This prevents you from receiving the benefits of an Enlightened Spirit/Primal Avatar/Ooze GS summons synergy build.

bug 4 has nothing to do with enlightened spirit or warlock. It's a bug with supreme cleave. It actually can work out better for you since you also use the crit profile of the weapon instead of an unarmed crit profile. hitting 71[2d8] and critting 15-20 x2. The break even point is when your + damage hits 27... after that the twinblade pulls ahead. It comes out even farther when you take into account seeker.
Just some (absolutely unrelated to this thread) food for thought.

Tilomere
07-17-2015, 10:57 PM
del

LordTigerDawn
07-17-2015, 11:26 PM
Hey, all.

We have a pair of adjustments for Enlightened Spirit abilities planned for Update 27, and we're not sure whether or not they'll make it into a Lamannia build, so we wanted to let you know about them ahead of time. Currently, they are:



The Spell Power scaling of Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast is now 120% (was 150%).
Shining Through now grants Temporary Hit Points equal to 12x your Constitution Score (was 15x).


These two abilities on Live are a bit stronger than intended, and we believe these adjustments will put them a little closer to where they should be while still remaining powerful.

Thanks!

-Steel

The Spell Power scaling of Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast - This should be changed to 80 + 2.5% per arcane lore[Feat] gained (curved as you lvl warlock and no longer one shotting everything on HE.

Shining Through - add a max of maximum hit points aka. max hit points 400, max 400 temp hp gained.

Steve_Howe
07-17-2015, 11:52 PM
you do realize that that is the same rebalance that you were just complaining about ... they just suggested nerfing it even harder for heroics
So? Warlocks are actually OP in Heroics. In Epics, which are what I play, Warlocks are not OP.

LordTigerDawn
07-18-2015, 12:31 AM
So? Warlocks are actually OP in Heroics. In Epics, which are what I play, Warlocks are not OP.

Warlocks one shot just about everything on HE... EN / EH just about everyone is fine anyways, EE... they do the same dmg they did on HE, but the mobs actually have hp now.

valarmorghuliis
07-18-2015, 12:34 AM
There are effects in game as is that scale in power through more class levels taken.

My proposal(s);

Is there a way that these two can be coded so that spell power = warlock class lv x 7.5%. This will smack down the multiclass warlock, which honestly, if you are 5 levels of warlock you shouldn't be able to hit that damn hard with these. While rewarding those that go full warlock. Effectively, if you've only taken 5 levels of warlock to just hit these two cleave bursts they're dealing 37.5% spell power dmg. While a full level 20 warlock is doing the full 150% spell power dmg. Just running a basic code through my head this doesn't seem too complicated a script.

The damage vs red and orange named on a warlock is already a joke compared to many others, the only real punching power vs them comes from stricken and consume. Those two really only shine when you've invested the AP into soul eater to get the hunger traits (extra hit die). Crippling this further just seems, well, stupid. An orange named with 180k hp takes my warlock in exalted angle with 625 light sp, 478 acid, roughly 3 minutes to kill assuming it's not a champion with resistances. That same named goes down in half that time easy when confronted with a barbarian or paladin (since we're claiming warlocks are doing too much damage I'm using high dmg classes as counter examples). You guys are in agreement that magic users are being left behind by melee in terms of damage dealt, yet the warlock whom has only eldritch blasts (and in this case bursts) as their means of damage is getting cut down. While wizards and sorcs continue to shout their spells don't do diddly squat worth of damage.

I get the damage is over the top in heroics, that I agree with entirely.
Defensively the temp HP is just as guilty in heroics, however in epics. Not so much. Unless you can somehow get 1 or 2 things at a time in EE (not that easy..) it's gone pretty fast. That's with roughly 120 prr/mrr.

As for the Shining Through;

Each core starting at lv 12 adds x# con multiplier. Base Shining Through, grants 8x con ability score as temporary HP.
12th lv core add passive, Shining Through now grants an additional 2x (bringing the total to 10x) con ability score as temporary HP.
18th lv core add passive, Shining Through now grants an additional 2x (bringing the total to 12x) con ability score as temporary HP.
20th lv core add passive, Shining Through now grants an additional 3x (bringing the total to 15x) con ability score as temporary HP.

Alternative to the scaled damage formula presented above, how about a system where-in all characters lv 20+ gain 0.25% spell power per arcane class level every epic level. and 0.5% spell crit chance.
Now a lv 20 wizard/bard/arti/sorc/warlock gains 5spell power every epic level and everyone gains 0.5% spell crit chance. This additional spell power will counter the spell power nerf of the base blast abilities with a gradual power increase through epic levels. This also offers other arcane classes a more competitive edge in epic levels.

The damage to red names isn't really relevant here since you do far better damage using focused stance and throwing balls at rednames than you do aura piking and bursting and they aren't changing the 150% from that.

Also the majority of the complaints from sorc and wizard are the damage/ spell point ratios and since 95% of warlock costs nothing that's not really a factor either.

All we are talking about honestly is taking a tree that can clear a red alerted ee quest with one burst and reducing the free burst damage by 30% so occasionally it takes 2 seconds to clear instead of one.

With the changes to temp hp its just changing from 100 hp every 2 sec + 150 cocoon every 15 sec + 70 every self targeted spell and 750 every 30 seconds to all of that still but only 600 every 30 seconds.

None of this breaks the class at all. None of it really does much to make them any less op. It's way more of a slight rebalancing that still leaves the class pretty unbalanced.

valarmorghuliis
07-18-2015, 12:37 AM
So? Warlocks are actually OP in Heroics. In Epics, which are what I play, Warlocks are not OP.

I guess agree to disagree on the epic thing. They feel really op in there also.

Edit: I somehow missed the "and 150% in epic" and the "and 15x in epic" that was written in orange so it looked like they were suggesting the initial nerf and adding a further nerf to heroics.

Dandonk
07-18-2015, 12:57 AM
If you're going to make adjustments, you should make them in heroic only. Warlocks are not at all overpowered in epics; in fact, they're somewhat underpowered at 20+.

Completely agree.

valarmorghuliis
07-18-2015, 01:11 AM
...my warlock in exalted angle with 625 light sp, 478 acid... . {quoted for the spell powers}

One way to think about whether you really think that the abilities are balanced or not is to compare it to something else that is considered good.

With those numbers (and ignoring crits) an acid energy burst will deal 3078.32 every 30 seconds and requires a tier 4 twist.

the NERFED burst and blast will be dealing 1317.906 and 1476.414 for a total of 2794.32 every 5 seconds... and you can twist sense weakness in instead of eburst

laurawilder
07-18-2015, 04:17 AM
:sigh:

I spend money on four +5 Hearts to convert my 20th level Horc fighter to a 20th level Horc melee Warlock because I found a build I liked through testing on Lamannia only to have it nerfed a week later.


I had a level 20 as well I switched to a warlock but I elected the free method and did a TR. You might want to consider this option next time. Spending 60 US Dollars just to LR a character is not the route many would choose me thinks.

legendkilleroll
07-18-2015, 05:07 AM
Completely agree.

Completely disagree.

slarden
07-18-2015, 06:00 AM
If you're going to make adjustments, you should make them in heroic only. Warlocks are not at all overpowered in epics; in fact, they're somewhat underpowered at 20+.

Edit: I'd also like to echo some of the sentiment in this thread. I am NOT happy about this change, especially when there are bugs in the class that still have not been fixed.

Yeah, I completely agree that at heroic levels warlocks are amazing, and they are solid in epics for sure, but @ cap they don't come close to the power level of paladin or barbarian. They have free dps which solves the problem of running out of sp, but they aren't going to out-dps a paladin or barbarian and have no more survivability. They definitely have utility with the spells, but the nerf is a bit of a surprise to me. Druid melee exploits have been used extensively for years and that continues, but warlock needs a nerf?

Warlocks shouldn't be neg leveling red names - that should be fixed for sure. Fix any known favorable bugs first and then look at warlock.

Dandonk
07-18-2015, 07:47 AM
Warlocks shouldn't be neg leveling red names - that should be fixed for sure. Fix any known favorable bugs first and then look at warlock.

Indeed. Warlocks have some bugs that do need fixing. But let's fix those first, and then look at them again. My three runs through epic levels as warlock was nowhere near as fast or painless as my druid, bard, barb, pally, or (recently) mech rogue lives.

TheWalruss
07-18-2015, 09:27 AM
If you're going to make adjustments, you should make them in heroic only. Warlocks are not at all overpowered in epics.


Great idea:
The Spell Power scaling of Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast is now 120% (was 150%). OR scales 100% heroic and 150% epic
Shining Through now grants Temporary Hit Points equal to 12x your Constitution Score (was 15x). OR 10x heroic and 15x epic


My proposal(s);

These all seem like better alternatives.

Warlocks are perfect in EE. Please don't change that.

IronClan
07-18-2015, 10:42 AM
Remember that time when I asked Varg repeatedly to address the fact that Warlocks were in clear danger of completely eclipsing SP based nukers in AOE damage? Well look what happened... they either intentionally or accidentally did just that. Ignored my requests to discuss the problem or somehow missed the multiple different posts I made asking them specifically about this.

It's really rather simple, Warlocks have the best AOE in the game and it uses zero resource of any type they can't POSSIBLY Nerf it enough to make any other form of Nuking comparable because it's a new paid class and even this nerf (which is mathematically probably not even a quarter of whats necessary), is not going to get close to allowing SP based heroic spell AOE's to compare. So the only way they're going to be able to balance heroic AOE abilities is a huge buff to them (which is a good thing because it's arguably necessary to buff SP based nuking even before Warlock came along and shined a bright light on it).

Eldritch cleaves are just like Barbarian Cleaves, O REALLY?!

Realistic average weapon damage + static damage bonus on a Barb cleave/great/supreme
110/115/120
Realistic % scaling of this base damage from Melee power (say 75 no blitz to 145 with I'll round it to 150)
150%

Average Eldritch blast/burst/pact combined damage on Spirit Blast:
102
Realistic Spell power scaling of this base damage:
420% scaled by 150% = 630%
Can be spammed with the T3 blast (alternating between them effectively making the cooldown the equivalent of 2.5 seconds)

For the sake of completeness lets look at a SP based Nuker
90 average base damage (DBF, Chain Lightning etc.)
500% scaling
65 spell point cost
Single elements are Highly resisted by many mobs
Save for half damage, Evocation DC investment required
.6 less crit multiplier

I think it's very fair to say that the Eldritch "Cleaves" totally eclipse any AOE any other class can do* excluding destiny stuff of course, I warned about this... I am not including much of the extra damage available (strong pact damage, the 18 core 3d6, Penetrating blast 1d6 etc.) nor even trying to factor the wonderful spammed blast riders like Stackable minus 4 fort debuff, 10% chance at confusion, 10% chance to slow etc.)

Quick showing of work (note I'm sure I missed something I am not trying to be exhaustive):
Cleaves (Normal/Great/Supreme) Typical Pulverizor/T5 Rav/Capstone FB (+45 Stat mod, 12 TF ench, 11 deadly, 20 average vorpal capstone, not including 25 storms eye due to health requirement so lets call it +80 to 110 static damage bonus sustainable can be more.
+1[W]/+2[W]/+3[W] 4.5[W]1d10 TF Maul (30.25/35.75/41.75)
Base Damage: 110.25/115.75/121.25 (with +80 from static damage bonus)
% scaling: 100% of give or take say 75 to 145 melee power
Critical multiplier 16-18X3 19-20X5 (15% and 10% chances)
180-ish degree arc

Eldritch "Cleaves":
3d6 or 10d6 Light +9d6 force and 10d4 pact (at least probably more) +3d6 (possibly another 3d6 from core 18 possibly much more from strong pact)
Base Damage 77.5/102 (T3 and T5 AOE's)
Spell power ~420, 40-50-ish via enhancements, 20 from epic spell power, 36 implement bonus, 150 TF stick, 100 Maximize, 75 Empower (much more available if built for as in I didn't include spellcraft/perform etc.)
Crits: 5% +22% TF stick (much more available if built/geared for, example Mental toughness and Golden Orb) 27% chance for X2.6
360* arc

*SP based Nukes:
90 average base damage 20d3+60 Delayed blast FB and Chain Lightning for example
500 Spell power same as above but more spell power available in most SP based caster trees also more of course from many sources (again many forms of spell power that are common to all classes are not included, spell power pots, spellcraft, destiny +30's etc. 500 is a conservative estimate same as for Warlock)
25+25+15 Base SP cost + Max + Empower
Crits: X2 on anywhere from 30% to 50% of casts

On the bright side it's time to give SP based casters back their Crit multiplier enhancements :) not much else they can do.. they would have to nerf the living ess out of Spirit blast both T5 and T3 by 150 to 200% spell power to even get close to balance on this due to the big advantage in multiplier, the big advantage in base damage, the lack of DC investment and the complete lack of cost and 150% scaling, 120% scaling wont even get close.

I don't hate to say I told you so.

What would get close?
no increased spell power scaling (scales with 100%)
costs 30-50sp
All of the blast subject to save for half damage

And it would still be better than casting any heroic AOE spell because the base damage (add up all the stuff I left out + the riders). Of course this would leave it much like heroic AOE spells, pretty undesirable in Epic.

Rhysem
07-18-2015, 11:22 AM
{quoted for the spell powers}

One way to think about whether you really think that the abilities are balanced or not is to compare it to something else that is considered good.

With those numbers (and ignoring crits) an acid energy burst will deal 3078.32 every 30 seconds and requires a tier 4 twist.

the NERFED burst and blast will be dealing 1317.906 and 1476.414 for a total of 2794.32 every 5 seconds... and you can twist sense weakness in instead of eburst

Class cores(/enchancements) should probably be stronger (or fireable more often) than the epic talents -- otherwise once you get epic it doesn't matter what class you were originally.

Rhysem
07-18-2015, 11:47 AM
Remember that time when I asked Varg repeatedly to address the fact that Warlocks were in clear danger of completely eclipsing SP based nukers in AOE damage? Well look what happened... they either intentionally or accidentally did just that. Ignored my requests to discuss the problem or somehow missed the multiple different posts I made asking them specifically about this.

If that's what it takes to make Warlock competitive with the revamped barb/bard/pallie(/rogue?), then so be it. It isn't warlocks fault that they got put out before the other casters got buffed. TBH, when caster buffs come through given what they've done to barb/bard/pallie/rogue, I expect warlocks to look gimped if this nerf goes through as proposed.

Although having rolled with an air savant sorc, the air savant was pretty damn impressive all on his own with plenty of AoE and he never shrined on HE or any of the epics including some EE we ran. He felt easily similarly powered to my now-18 TS warlock.

All this does is puts ES behind TS or SE.


What I don't get here is why? The auras while good are risky. They're PBAoE. You have to get right up in the mobs face. Most caster examples may do less damage, but they do it from range. TS and SE aren't really behind in the damage department, and they get to work from the safety of range. Nerfing the damage and the defense at the same time is a sure recipe for doing it too far. It won't mean warlocks aren't still great -- it'll mean there's no point in a 5-level warlock splash (well, I guess the temp hp are still good, but probably not worth giving up other classes T5 for) and it'll mean there's no point in building a ES warlock.

This really needs to leave the power for ES there for heavy warlock builds (increases at 12, 18, and 20 via the cores would be perfect). Turning it to scale off the base EB dice would work too (maybe nicer, since splash builds could improve it in epics via feats if they so chose).


I mean I'll try it when it goes live -- but I'll have just done 1 to 28 as TS, and 25 to 28 as a ES (who spent the years-old free LR+20 heart to become warlock ES from gimp FvS). If it sucks too hard, I will only have the 20->28 to deal with once and on my usual 14 day casual stroll to 28 on EN, then I can flip back to TS or SE. But I won't be happy -- I like the melee PBAoE ES style, reminds me of some of my favorite CoX characters I ran (stone melee/electric armor FTW! Not the most "optimal" build according to the ubers, but an epic good time to be sure). I could in theory do the same with barb (which was my last life) and cleaves, but it didn't quite feel the same. Not sure why. Maybe it was having to listen to all the annoying "HUUURRRAAAA" all the time.


You want to see complaining, what till the people paying 100s of astral shards for lantern rings on the ASAH who don't normally read the forums find this nerf. I wonder if I should hawk the one I had stashed for myself before prices drop on it again...

Krumm
07-18-2015, 12:59 PM
If that's what it takes to make Warlock competitive with the revamped barb/bard/pallie(/rogue?), then so be it. It isn't warlocks fault that they got put out before the other casters got buffed. TBH, when caster buffs come through given what they've done to barb/bard/pallie/rogue, I expect warlocks to look gimped if this nerf goes through as proposed.

Although having rolled with an air savant sorc, the air savant was pretty damn impressive all on his own with plenty of AoE and he never shrined on HE or any of the epics including some EE we ran. He felt easily similarly powered to my now-18 TS warlock.

All this does is puts ES behind TS or SE.


What I don't get here is why? The auras while good are risky. They're PBAoE. You have to get right up in the mobs face. Most caster examples may do less damage, but they do it from range. TS and SE aren't really behind in the damage department, and they get to work from the safety of range. Nerfing the damage and the defense at the same time is a sure recipe for doing it too far. It won't mean warlocks aren't still great -- it'll mean there's no point in a 5-level warlock splash (well, I guess the temp hp are still good, but probably not worth giving up other classes T5 for) and it'll mean there's no point in building a ES warlock.

This really needs to leave the power for ES there for heavy warlock builds (increases at 12, 18, and 20 via the cores would be perfect). Turning it to scale off the base EB dice would work too (maybe nicer, since splash builds could improve it in epics via feats if they so chose).


I mean I'll try it when it goes live -- but I'll have just done 1 to 28 as TS, and 25 to 28 as a ES (who spent the years-old free LR+20 heart to become warlock ES from gimp FvS). If it sucks too hard, I will only have the 20->28 to deal with once and on my usual 14 day casual stroll to 28 on EN, then I can flip back to TS or SE. But I won't be happy -- I like the melee PBAoE ES style, reminds me of some of my favorite CoX characters I ran (stone melee/electric armor FTW! Not the most "optimal" build according to the ubers, but an epic good time to be sure). I could in theory do the same with barb (which was my last life) and cleaves, but it didn't quite feel the same. Not sure why. Maybe it was having to listen to all the annoying "HUUURRRAAAA" all the time.


You want to see complaining, what till the people paying 100s of astral shards for lantern rings on the ASAH who don't normally read the forums find this nerf. I wonder if I should hawk the one I had stashed for myself before prices drop on it again...



To be honest, Warlock in ES aura/burst mode is the easy button atm.
It's arguable whether or not Warlocks (in ES) is OP as Barbs & Pallies but Warlock at level 24 will have access to 150 light spell power items from tier 2 thunderforged items. It's pretty much burst/burst to clean out at level EE quests.
Also, with combination of medium armor, shining through & displacement, you get a lot of time to heal yourself (espacially if you have some past lives that adds prr).

As many players have stated in this thread, perhaps not as OP as Barbs & Pallies but much easier to equip/build/play... the easy button.


And I did use a heart of wood to make a PDK 18warlock/2pally build for myself (after seeing how powerful ES builds were with a morninglord 18warlock/1fighter/1cleric test build).
I've just reached 24 on this PDK build and I am clearing pretty much "most" EE content without any effort.

So while I am dis-hearten with the nerf, it's probably well deserved... IMHO





btw, with this build, I actually survive a lot of crippling lags now... :cool:

zeonardo
07-18-2015, 01:08 PM
This is a joke.
This has to be a joke.
From 150% to 120%?
So instead of hitting like a boeing 777 it now hits like a 747?
Instead of clearing the whole Eberron and Forgotten Healms altogether with a single cleave from the guild boat now they will have to actualy zone into those areas?

Seriously... what were you guys thinking?
150% ?
Even 120% ??
Hope you're selling it good enough to keep the game going.

Chai
07-18-2015, 06:46 PM
Remember that time when I asked Varg repeatedly to address the fact that Warlocks were in clear danger of completely eclipsing SP based nukers in AOE damage? Well look what happened... they either intentionally or accidentally did just that. Ignored my requests to discuss the problem or somehow missed the multiple different posts I made asking them specifically about this.

It's really rather simple, Warlocks have the best AOE in the game and it uses zero resource of any type they can't POSSIBLY Nerf it enough to make any other form of Nuking comparable because it's a new paid class and even this nerf (which is mathematically probably not even a quarter of whats necessary), is not going to get close to allowing SP based heroic spell AOE's to compare. So the only way they're going to be able to balance heroic AOE abilities is a huge buff to them (which is a good thing because it's arguably necessary to buff SP based nuking even before Warlock came along and shined a bright light on it).

Eldritch cleaves are just like Barbarian Cleaves, O REALLY?!

Realistic average weapon damage + static damage bonus on a Barb cleave/great/supreme
110/115/120
Realistic % scaling of this base damage from Melee power (say 75 no blitz to 145 with I'll round it to 150)
150%

Average Eldritch blast/burst/pact combined damage on Spirit Blast:
102
Realistic Spell power scaling of this base damage:
420% scaled by 150% = 630%
Can be spammed with the T3 blast (alternating between them effectively making the cooldown the equivalent of 2.5 seconds)

For the sake of completeness lets look at a SP based Nuker
90 average base damage (DBF, Chain Lightning etc.)
500% scaling
65 spell point cost
Single elements are Highly resisted by many mobs
Save for half damage, Evocation DC investment required
.6 less crit multiplier

I think it's very fair to say that the Eldritch "Cleaves" totally eclipse any AOE any other class can do* excluding destiny stuff of course, I warned about this... I am not including much of the extra damage available (strong pact damage, the 18 core 3d6, Penetrating blast 1d6 etc.) nor even trying to factor the wonderful spammed blast riders like Stackable minus 4 fort debuff, 10% chance at confusion, 10% chance to slow etc.)

Quick showing of work (note I'm sure I missed something I am not trying to be exhaustive):
Cleaves (Normal/Great/Supreme) Typical Pulverizor/T5 Rav/Capstone FB (+45 Stat mod, 12 TF ench, 11 deadly, 20 average vorpal capstone, not including 25 storms eye due to health requirement so lets call it +80 to 110 static damage bonus sustainable can be more.
+1[W]/+2[W]/+3[W] 4.5[W]1d10 TF Maul (30.25/35.75/41.75)
Base Damage: 110.25/115.75/121.25 (with +80 from static damage bonus)
% scaling: 100% of give or take say 75 to 145 melee power
Critical multiplier 16-18X3 19-20X5 (15% and 10% chances)
180-ish degree arc

Eldritch "Cleaves":
3d6 or 10d6 Light +9d6 force and 10d4 pact (at least probably more) +3d6 (possibly another 3d6 from core 18 possibly much more from strong pact)
Base Damage 77.5/102 (T3 and T5 AOE's)
Spell power ~420, 40-50-ish via enhancements, 20 from epic spell power, 36 implement bonus, 150 TF stick, 100 Maximize, 75 Empower (much more available if built for as in I didn't include spellcraft/perform etc.)
Crits: 5% +22% TF stick (much more available if built/geared for, example Mental toughness and Golden Orb) 27% chance for X2.6
360* arc

*SP based Nukes:
90 average base damage 20d3+60 Delayed blast FB and Chain Lightning for example
500 Spell power same as above but more spell power available in most SP based caster trees also more of course from many sources (again many forms of spell power that are common to all classes are not included, spell power pots, spellcraft, destiny +30's etc. 500 is a conservative estimate same as for Warlock)
25+25+15 Base SP cost + Max + Empower
Crits: X2 on anywhere from 30% to 50% of casts

On the bright side it's time to give SP based casters back their Crit multiplier enhancements :) not much else they can do.. they would have to nerf the living ess out of Spirit blast both T5 and T3 by 150 to 200% spell power to even get close to balance on this due to the big advantage in multiplier, the big advantage in base damage, the lack of DC investment and the complete lack of cost and 150% scaling, 120% scaling wont even get close.

I don't hate to say I told you so.

What would get close?
no increased spell power scaling (scales with 100%)
costs 30-50sp
All of the blast subject to save for half damage

And it would still be better than casting any heroic AOE spell because the base damage (add up all the stuff I left out + the riders). Of course this would leave it much like heroic AOE spells, pretty undesirable in Epic.

Supporting the nerf means less overhead to work with when casters get their revamp. Want to see casters in the same ballpark as melee? Let them keep the overhead warlock provides in place as a benchmark for the future caster pass. Other wise Ill be the one saying "told you so" when new class revamps are lackluster, due to the hilarious amounts of nerf requests after every single revamp, combined with me making the same "leave this alone so future passes have the overhead" argument repeatedly.

that barbarian damage is way off btw. I see much higher numbers than that for cleave damage numbers, and my barbarian isn't anywhere near maxed out. I also see a lot more one shot kills using AOE spells on my sorc than spamming the cleaves on the warlock. In fact, There are places where I can spam both cleaves and still not kill the same group of mobs I have one shot killed on a sorc.

IronClan
07-18-2015, 07:09 PM
If a zero cost blast with 10% to confuse, debuff fort save, slow etc. does 2000DPS (just say) then what DPS must DBF and Chain lightning that costs 65sp per cast, has half damage on save (instead of just the pact damage) and has no nifty rider procs do?

IMO this is the only question that matters right now to SP based casters. Varg clearly knows there will need to be some buffs handed out he started a thread about it himself.

Rhysem brings up some completely fair points about the ES cleaves having point blank range while the AOE's in the other tress have similar (almost identical) power and are ranged. If the ES cleaves are OP so are the wave and ball AOE's (less so the ball as that has a resource counter use and can not be spammed).

IronClan
07-18-2015, 07:40 PM
Supporting the nerf means less overhead to work with when casters get their revamp. Want to see casters in the same ballpark as melee? Let them keep the overhead warlock provides in place as a benchmark for the future caster pass. Other wise Ill be the one saying "told you so" when new class revamps are lackluster, due to the hilarious amounts of nerf requests after every single revamp, combined with me making the same "leave this alone so future passes have the overhead" argument repeatedly.

that barbarian damage is way off btw. I see much higher numbers than that for cleave damage numbers, and my barbarian isn't anywhere near maxed out. I also see a lot more one shot kills using AOE spells on my sorc than spamming the cleaves on the warlock. In fact, There are places where I can spam both cleaves and still not kill the same group of mobs I have one shot killed on a sorc.

You are welcome to do the math yourself with more exhaustive numbers than mine as I said I was keeping it conservative (for all three examples) and I showed my math. Do you see a significant source of static damage bonus or +[W] that I missed? Don't just make claims without something to back it up. those numbers while conservative are pretty Reasonable they are averages ofc so that would explain why you "see" much higher non crits than 250-ish, you should absolutely see some much higher that's what an average implies after all. You might also have some more [W] or the ToEE set bonus etc.

I am not going to argue with "My Sorc feels more powerful than my Warlock" Spell damage especially is extremely straight forward you have all the mathematics available to you, base damage scaled by spell power % it couldn't be simpler to compare them. There is no need for subjective claims.

BTW I am not sure I'm supporting the nerf so much as pointing out how big a gap they opened up and how much SP casters are going to need to be brought up to be comparable considering they use a finite resource.

Chai
07-18-2015, 07:53 PM
You are welcome to do the math yourself with more exhaustive numbers than mine as I said I was keeping it conservative (for all three examples) and I showed my math. Do you see a significant source of static damage bonus or +[W] that I missed? Don't just make claims without something to back it up. those numbers while conservative are pretty Reasonable they are averages ofc so that would explain why you "see" much higher non crits than 250-ish, you should absolutely see some much higher that's what an average implies after all. You might also have some more [W] or the ToEE set bonus etc.

I am not going to argue with "My Sorc feels more powerful than my Warlock" Spell damage especially is extremely straight forward you have all the mathematics available to you, base damage scaled by spell power % it couldn't be simpler to compare them. There is no need for subjective claims.

The barbarian vs paladin calc which was posted on these forums a couple months back shows both classes doing much bigger damage than you claim they do.

In other news, these nerf requests after every single new revamp or class release ARE subjective claims (which you claim to want none of). People did a lot of work over the years to make their characters powerful and now that they no longer have to do that, they blame it on the class, which is incorrect. Its the gear power creep and enhancement power creep which contributes the vast majority of the difference in power since the days when multiple past lives were far more desirable. Because current characters do not require the amount of grind and work to succeed, people are demanding nerfs down to the same level of power their old characters which they put tons of work into in the past.

Ill believe the person who plays a warlock and sorc through all levels, the vast majority of them who are telling us that warlocks are not powerful in EE like they are in heroics, before I believe an incomplete vacuum based number crunch. Barbarians and paladins scale better into epics than warlock does. This is in ALL the feedback threads discussing the class - all the way back to the first Lamannia preview.

When you guys get your much sought after nerfs, and the caster revamps are lackluster due to very loud and often repeated nerf requests disallowing any headroom to work with when that time comes, we can have this "I told you so" conversation at that point.

Faltout
07-18-2015, 08:19 PM
The barbarian vs paladin calc which was posted on these forums a couple months back shows both classes doing much bigger damage than you claim they do.
I studied those calcs searching for ways to increase pally DPS in them. However, the tests cannot be trusted. All I saw was "Scenario 1" and "Scenario 2" but then again I didn't look at the functions behind the scenes.

However, I saw that exalted smites or cleaves were not used. And I can argue that the program calculating DPS needs to be much more complex than an excel sheet. Need to calculate movement speed, positioning, defences, activation times, cooldowns, etc. For example, to get my paladin DPS up to full potential I need about 30 seconds of preparation. scrolling tenser's, drinking haste, casting divine favor, activating boosts, positioning myself so the boss will not run away from me... And all this for 15-20 seconds of full DPS.

Chai
07-18-2015, 08:24 PM
I studied those calcs searching for ways to increase pally DPS in them. However, the tests cannot be trusted. All I saw was "Scenario 1" and "Scenario 2" but then again I didn't look at the functions behind the scenes.

However, I saw that exalted smites or cleaves were not used. And I can argue that the program calculating DPS needs to be much more complex than an excel sheet. Need to calculate movement speed, positioning, defences, activation times, cooldowns, etc. For example, to get my paladin DPS up to full potential I need about 30 seconds of preparation. scrolling tenser's, drinking haste, casting divine favor, activating boosts, positioning myself so the boss will not run away from me... And all this for 15-20 seconds of full DPS.

Yep I agree. This is why playing the class to verify the calc is better than spreadsheet numbers alone. I see a lot of people saying warlocks are OP in heroics but not so much in epics. This is my observation as well.

Rhysem
07-18-2015, 10:06 PM
To be honest, Warlock in ES aura/burst mode is the easy button atm.
It's arguable whether or not Warlocks (in ES) is OP as Barbs & Pallies but Warlock at level 24 will have access to 150 light spell power items from tier 2 thunderforged items. It's pretty much burst/burst to clean out at level EE quests.
Also, with combination of medium armor, shining through & displacement, you get a lot of time to heal yourself (espacially if you have some past lives that adds prr).

As many players have stated in this thread, perhaps not as OP as Barbs & Pallies but much easier to equip/build/play... the easy button.

I just ran through a barb life. It isn't like I had great gear -- actually my 2h melee gear is awful. It was probably less strong than my warlocks (though I did splurge on the warlocks to give the 25 the upgraded lantern and libram when he hit 26, and the barb wasn't even running thunderforged gear -- only one 20->28, no point in making it and having more btc inventory hork). The barb did had the advantage that mobs are walking healing pots. The warlock I have to stop doing damage to refresh my temp HP.

You are probably right it is a bit more low-geared friendly, but that's somewhat canonical to 3.5th - in games that have normal magic levels (ie: not dragonlance), if your gm is being gear stingy, the casters are going to have a better go of it than the melees. Seeing warlock do better with lesser gear maybe shouldn't be a surprise.

Having weak-gear-friendly classes is good if you want new players to still come in to the game.

Rhysem
07-18-2015, 10:13 PM
Yep I agree. This is why playing the class to verify the calc is better than spreadsheet numbers alone. I see a lot of people saying warlocks are OP in heroics but not so much in epics. This is my observation as well.

If warlocks are OP vs bard/barb/pallie (which I don't think is true) in heroics, it isn't because of ES. ES 1 to 12 is junk. At 12 it might be okay, but in the meantime TS and SE have been crushing it for 10 levels. And they're not talking about touching that. Nor, you'll note, are they talking about fixing ES blowing from 1 to 11 (low aura dps + low aura tick rate = uhh hi I'm a gimpy melee in bad armor with no temp hp to speak of).

Chai
07-18-2015, 10:24 PM
If warlocks are OP vs bard/barb/pallie (which I don't think is true) in heroics, it isn't because of ES. ES 1 to 12 is junk. At 12 it might be okay, but in the meantime TS and SE have been crushing it for 10 levels. And they're not talking about touching that. Nor, you'll note, are they talking about fixing ES blowing from 1 to 11 (low aura dps + low aura tick rate = uhh hi I'm a gimpy melee in bad armor with no temp hp to speak of).

I don't think they are OP versus those classes, but it can hold its own. I play the spell cleave the same way I play melee cleaves, and it works fine, but isn't OP. People claiming it is likely witnessed the barrage of heroic TR warlocks which happened over the past few weeks and got caught up in how fast they can kill stuff, forgetting the entire time that most other classes steamroll heroics just as quickly. Anyone claiming they are OP in epics (especially EE) needs to show us some videos, or it didn't happen.

Heck, artificers are more powerful in the 1-12 game. They have the same issue warlocks do regarding scaling into epics, albeit to a greater degree.

LevelJ
07-18-2015, 11:01 PM
Please don't do this. Warlocks are indeed overpowered for heroics, but please don't kill Enlightened Spirit's high points for epics. I've been running through using these abilities for epic, and from what I have experienced, these abilities are right where they need to be for epic. Nerfing them in this way will render them ineffective.

Perhaps cutting Shinning Through's multiplier almost in half for heroics and upping it to 15x for epics would be a good solution. In my heroic questing experience that seemed like it would be about right.


Great idea:

The Spell Power scaling of Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast is now 120% (was 150%). OR scales 100% heroic and 150% epic
Shining Through now grants Temporary Hit Points equal to 12x your Constitution Score (was 15x). OR 10x heroic and 15x epic

I wonder if something like this was even considered?

I agree on the suggestion for Eldritch Burst/Spirit Blast. Shinning Through is close to what I envisioned, but I still think Shinning Through is too high for heroic. My drow had about 20+ Con, so that would put it at 200 false life. My HP rarely dropped below 100%, and based on where it was at most of the time in false life (keep in mind this is a drow, which is the minimum for Con scores), 7x strikes me as a better multiplier for heroics. In my experience 15x for me was perfect for Epics though. Shinning Through forms a key part of my Warlock's defense, even though it runs out fairly quickly in large mobs on epic.

If you want to fix the 'overpowered' points of Warlock, starting with the bugs (like enervating shadow) would really help, both to avoid likely irreversible changes that people dislike, and to gauge where warlocks really sit with the currently WaI mechanics.

I really enjoy Warlock as it sits currently. As one of my all-time favorite classes in this game (besides Wizards), I would really like to see Warlock succeed as a class...in most ways it has, but it definitely needs adjustments for heroic levels in Enlightened Spirit. But what concerns me is that this announcement being pushed in quite late strongly implies that it is being done without the option for adequate (or any) feedback. I would greatly appreciate it if the devs would consider the feedback provided in this thread before going forward with this.


-Jayron

Tilomere
07-19-2015, 12:56 PM
del

Dalsheel
07-19-2015, 02:01 PM
Warlock burst attacks are just fine as they are now. There's no need to nerf them!
We've been spectators to the same play over and over and over again... Something new comes out, veteran players with multi-TR characters and years of game experience try it out and they perform "above average" because that's what you get with a mutli-TR character and years of DDO experience. Then new and/or ungeared and/or unskilled players jump on the forum crying that the new thing is OP and should be nerfed "because the Vets on their server are doing great with it"... and then the worst part: The Devs believe them!

Some people come here and say that spellpoints based nukers are behind compared to warlocks and they have the audacity to compare spells with 30d6 (avr. 105) base damage to a Warlock's 13d6 blast+10d4 pact (avr. 70.5). Do you people realize what the base damage difference is? I'll tell you... it's 50% base damage difference (48.94% to be exact).

With this mentality, I wonder, how long will it take for Wizard players to start complaining about Sorcs having more spell points and Artificers complaining about Rogues getting more skill points? Should Warlock players start asking for their version of Holy Sword, maybe? Do you see where this is going?

And don't start with nonsense like "spells cost sp" and things like that. Warlock burst attacks are enhancements, they are no different than the Paladin's cleaves. They cost Action Points, so NO, they are not free.

Stop being jealous of your friends who rolled a Warlock and they're having fun, people. It's easier and much more enjoyable if you roll one yourselves and experience this brand new super fun gameplay experiece that Warlock offers.

TheWalruss
07-19-2015, 03:05 PM
Just want to draw devs' attention to this thread: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/462936-Warlock-OP-!

A lot of great suggestions there as well.

Rhysem
07-19-2015, 03:34 PM
Our opinion probably doesn't matter anyway, because:


... and we're not sure whether or not they'll make it into a Lamannia build, so we wanted to let you know about them ahead of time.

We're almost certainly wasting our breath, because it looks to me like the devs have already decided and will do what they want.

valarmorghuliis
07-19-2015, 05:08 PM
Yep I agree. This is why playing the class to verify the calc is better than spreadsheet numbers alone. I see a lot of people saying warlocks are OP in heroics but not so much in epics. This is my observation as well.

I've been running a warlock around solo in a bunch of ee's recently and my experience with it as it currently is as well as the calculations I've run on average damage per burst both before and after the "nerf" have me believing that the nerf is just taking the class from stupidly broken to just pretty broken.

And at 50 con you are just going from 750 temp hp in shining through to 600 ... all that means is that when you gather up your red alert and jump in the middle of the pack you should maybe throw down a tentacles first.

The thing everyone seems to be ignoring with the whole "it isn't as op as barbs" is that on top of all this aoe damage warlocks also have access to a ton of cc.

They are op now and they'll still be op when this nerf lands. everything is gonna be ok.

Drwaz99
07-19-2015, 05:25 PM
Our opinion probably doesn't matter anyway, because:



We're almost certainly wasting our breath, because it looks to me like the devs have already decided and will do what they want.

Yeah, SOP for Turbine right now.

Fanboi's run off most anyone who criticizes Turbine. Fanbois complain incessantly on the forums that warlocks are OP! OP! OP! because they built a poor one and are jealous that others are doing better. Fanobois know they have the devs ear. Devs listen to fanbois and ignore the few people who are giving accurate (but critical) feedback because they aren't fanbois. Game takes another turn for the worse.

Irony is lost on fanbois when the game's biggest fans are the ones who end up driving it into the ground.

Rhysem
07-19-2015, 08:32 PM
I figured out the real reason for the nerf.

Since TS and SE's actual eldritch blast can't break breakables worth a hoot (half go to the ceiling, some hit and do nothing, a few actually work) -- and since they also can't hit a mob it if is on top of them (but still in front), ES needed to be nerfed so that we felt their pain since turbine concluded they couldn't fix the targetting?

Lemdog
07-19-2015, 08:59 PM
I would suggest eldritch burst scales with only 100% spell power, and spirit blast scales with 150%.

Also shining through , make it 12x from 1-20 and bump it up to 15x in epix.

My thoughts.

gwonbush
07-19-2015, 08:59 PM
If you hate boxes, Eldritch Cone is your friend. Just face roughly in the general direction of a group of boxes and blow them all away one layer at a time.

fmalfeas
07-19-2015, 09:16 PM
If you hate boxes, Eldritch Cone is your friend. Just face roughly in the general direction of a group of boxes and blow them all away one layer at a time.

It's also incredible for taking out swarms. Hold down left mouse and right mouse, strafe in a broad circle around the swarm. You don't have to actually aim, just face the right direction generally, and try to avoid hits. And since most mobs make it very difficult to stay at ranges longer than cone if they aren't archers, it's very, very effective. And cone hits harder than chain.

I even tend to do it to single bosses, just because I don't have to try to aim, and don't have to deal with hits not landing because they went sideways instead of forward.

patang01
07-20-2015, 08:07 AM
Yep I agree. This is why playing the class to verify the calc is better than spreadsheet numbers alone. I see a lot of people saying warlocks are OP in heroics but not so much in epics. This is my observation as well.

It's my observation as well. Granted, I don't exploit ES as much, but overall Warlocks are very strong (and low resource users) in Heroic, but not so much in Epics. In Epics my Shiradi Sorc could devastate mobs in less time than my Warlock. What it boils down to is speed of destruction. And that they don't have access to a Warlock centered destiny.

Chai
07-21-2015, 11:38 AM
I've been running a warlock around solo in a bunch of ee's recently and my experience with it as it currently is as well as the calculations I've run on average damage per burst both before and after the "nerf" have me believing that the nerf is just taking the class from stupidly broken to just pretty broken.

And at 50 con you are just going from 750 temp hp in shining through to 600 ... all that means is that when you gather up your red alert and jump in the middle of the pack you should maybe throw down a tentacles first.

The thing everyone seems to be ignoring with the whole "it isn't as op as barbs" is that on top of all this aoe damage warlocks also have access to a ton of cc.

They are op now and they'll still be op when this nerf lands. everything is gonna be ok.

Op compared to the content yes, but not compared to other revamped classes. Which benchmark are we using, the 2012 benchmark or the 2015 benchmark? When using old hat 2012 benchmarks to determine what is OP in 2015, the determination will be that anything that gets a revamp, and anything released to the 2015 benchmark is OP, or "stupidly broken" etc...as we saw declared in every single nerf request thread after a revamp. Im fine with that, but the real issue is the demands for nerfs after every class revamp and class release is going to cause the overhead the devs have to work with to be much lower when they finally do a caster revamp. If people are complaining at that time that their single target DPS (the thing that needs most work on casters) is still lacking post pass, they will have the constant demands for nerfing after every previous revamp to thank for that.

slarden
07-21-2015, 01:01 PM
Op compared to the content yes, but not compared to other revamped classes. Which benchmark are we using, the 2012 benchmark or the 2015 benchmark?

This is my thinking exactly. Why are nerfing warlock when the other builds are more powerful and those aren't being nerfed?

I agree the favorable player bugs such as the ability to neg level red-names should be fixed. I don't think anything working as intended is making warlock overpowered. Focus on the bugs first please.

Rhysem
07-21-2015, 06:21 PM
If you hate boxes, Eldritch Cone is your friend. Just face roughly in the general direction of a group of boxes and blow them all away one layer at a time.

The spirit blasts let you hop in the air and take out the whole area of boxes. Clearly vastly OP.

gwonbush
07-21-2015, 07:50 PM
The spirit blasts let you hop in the air and take out the whole area of boxes. Clearly vastly OP.

But that requires running up to the boxes instead of facing in their general direction as you run past. Too much work.

Silverleafeon
07-22-2015, 04:17 PM
For a pure Warlock Caster in Exalted Angel / Enlightened, Fawn was like, run to a group Cleave 1, Energy Burst, Cleave 2, Divine Wrath ~ move to next group and repeat.

Dangerous playstyle that was extremely effective in EE grouping.

Taking the edge off these two and the massive temp hp makes sense to me imhowcbw

valarmorghuliis
07-25-2015, 06:27 PM
The real issue is that in doing this fix they broke the aura so that it only procs the temporary hp and ac/prr and doesn't actually hit any mobs at all.

Feralthyrtiaq
07-26-2015, 07:19 AM
In it infuriating to have paid for this class and enjoy it a lot only to find it is getting changed.

Did you change holy sword after the fact due to public out cry? I would have thought it would have been changed especailly since it is free to play.


This decision is the the "Stick in the eye" Turbine has been known for.

I could calmly and frankly say how unprofesional and short sighted this is but really....


HOW EFFING STUPiD, Really, really dumb decision....

Ladywolf
07-26-2015, 02:20 PM
Hey, all.

We have a pair of adjustments for Enlightened Spirit abilities planned for Update 27, and we're not sure whether or not they'll make it into a Lamannia build, so we wanted to let you know about them ahead of time. Currently, they are:



The Spell Power scaling of Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast is now 120% (was 150%).
Shining Through now grants Temporary Hit Points equal to 12x your Constitution Score (was 15x).


These two abilities on Live are a bit stronger than intended, and we believe these adjustments will put them a little closer to where they should be while still remaining powerful.

Thanks!

-Steel


The perspective of someone who has played this game since day 1 of its release with only a 3 weeks break from it:

You suggest 3 changes, changing eldritch burst, changing spirit blast and changing shining thru, so 2 of which are in tier 5. I recently finished my fourth warlock on my triple everything toon, playing with other good players who are not warlocks, In heroics warlocks are OP because of shining though and spirit blast but not at EE cap unless your peers are bad. I have found that some of those other non warlock classes have dominated the field in end game. Specifically certain paladins, bards and barbs have recently stood out that I've grouped with. when I chat with better casters than me I discover they focus very little in enlightened spirit, preferring the other trees. Do not change eldritch burst; limit your changes to just the 2 tier 5s of ES if you must like for shining through. Eldritch burst does NOT belong on your nerf list
- rhyes

Alternative
07-26-2015, 03:14 PM
For a pure Warlock Caster in Exalted Angel / Enlightened, Fawn was like, run to a group Cleave 1, Energy Burst, Cleave 2, Divine Wrath ~ move to next group and repeat.

Sounds exactly how I play my paladin, run to a group, consecrate, cleave 1, cleave 2, strike down, when dead move to another group. Point? And melee is much faster on red nameds, so yeah.